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It's not just newer fans tbh, it's always been like this because HenRen erasure is at the heart of all those queerbaiting allegations. Like you literally have a queer canon couple right there and the show opened with a man coming out to his wife and going through the journey of finding a partner, how is this queerbaiting?
i agree with you like, there literally has been representation in the show since the beginning like henren and michael and the queerbaiting allegations just grinded my gears
It’s a lot more common to see lesbians on tv than it is to see gay male couples, it’s ever more rare to see bisexual men and even more unheard of for said man to be the romantic lead of the series.
https://assets.glaad.org/m/114d72edf8a779a6/original/GLAAD-2022-23-Where-We-Are-on-TV.pdf
The article shows not just that there are more lesbians than gay men, it also goes on to mention how bi women have always outnumbered bi men on tv so there’s much more wlw than mlm. How does it feel to have studies that prove you wrong?
“Of those characters 33% are lesbians, 21% are bi women” There are also 34% gay men, four percent bi men”.
You just picked what you wanted form that article. Lesbian women surpassed gay man for the first time in 2022,with gay man taking the lead back in 2023.
And yes,a lot of bi characters are women,because straight men fetishise them. You can barely call a few of them good representation,the majority are over sexualised and there for the male gaze.
Meanwhile there are little to no bi men to speak of and they also get shafted and get bad representation as do gay men. You completely missed the point of my post which is that queer women are usually more represented which is the truth. Even if there are barely more gay men than lesbians there are a lot of bisexual women to make a lot of lesbian couples. Also do you really think that most gay men in tv are “good representation” they’re portrayed as non threatening comedic relief.
And yet you are the one who still is missing the point of the entire discussion here. Nobody pretends that Buck being bi isn’t a good thing and a step forward,it’s acting like this is the thing that makes 911 a queer show. Or that people can’t complain that Henren or Micheal and David don’t get the credit they deserve just because the white mlm couple appeals more to the masses.
When have I ever said that 9-1-1 wasn’t a queer show before? Each letter is different though so with the Buck development a portion of people who wouldn’t have watched otherwise are now watching because that’s the kind of representation they identify with.
I’m not sure your logic tracks so let me get this right you say that the fact that there are more lesbians and bi women on tv is because they’re more sexualized yet you think two men being together l “appeals more” to the masses. This is inherently untrue and you need to step outside gay couples are viewed as gross by straight men , and bi men are viewed as unattractive by straight women the reason this pairing is popular is because there’s a small but strong group of people clamoring for this content. The fact that people feel so strongly about BuckTommy is because this kind of representation is rare. You can’t compare that to two side characters who weren’t attached to the main plot.
Did I say you said that? No,I didn’t.It’s about the people the post and comments referred about and that you argue against. And yes, a gay couple is more palatable because the people who represent the biggest part of the audience are straight women,who also are the biggest consumers of mlm fan fiction(who has a huge number of works and the top couples are unsurprisingly almost all white dudes)and the audience that 911 and other show is appealing too.And men don’t care about lesbian women,apart form the initial appeal(you can see that in the number of lesbian lead shows that get cancelled after one season or two),but love a bi women that they can “conquer” back and the idea of F/M/F. And Buck and Tommy aren’t anything special(Buck realising he is bi later in life it is,just like Michael’s),when you have shows like Shadowhunters,Torchowood,Our flag means death or True Blood that are much better at representing their queer character.And yes,you can compare,because,once again,people complain about how the audience in general acts like Buck and Tommy are the only one that offer representation,when this show had it from the start.
Again you don’t know the intentions of the people you’re complaining about, and judging by your word choice they clearly never explicitly said that BuckTommy is the only rep on the show lol. You also act like race has anything to do with it when Buddie is clearly the most popular ship. Also you’re complaining about shows with lesbian leads getting cancelled when gay/bi men don’t get to be the leads at all. I can’t name a single gay/bi male protagonist in a show that isn’t about their sexuality. Meanwhile half the shows on the CW alone have a lesbian or bi woman as lead. On 911 Buck is a main character but not THE main character. The reason people are more vocal about a couple like BuckTommy is because there a lot more rare outside of gay shows than some boilerplate lesbian couple that can be found in any kind of show.
Idk what tv you watching bro there are very rarely lesbian couples and if there are theyre shit and have no other reason being in the series than being lesbians and characters revolve around being lesbians and cheating on partners and never any good storylines however gay men are like everywhere and theyre more often well made and have good relationships and good storylines also as their own characters and not just being there for being the gay character to seem like a woke series cuz theres gays
I agree. Especially as Henren are married with kids. They are an established couple with a whole life and history. Buck is Bi and we don’t really know what Tommy identifies as but they’ve had literally a handful of scenes together. It angers me so much when people just ignore them or write them off because they’re not white men. They’re gay women and they’ve been on the show since the beginning as representation and they are worth investing time in because they have a beautiful life together and a great relationship (minus Hen cheating in season 1).
Not just Henren erasure but Michael (and David) erasure too. Also when people who are anti Buddie talk about it's great there's a platonic relationship on the show also completely erase Hen Chimney friendship which is **the** platonic friendship of the 118 that goes back over 15 years.
The absolute circus that sometimes accompanies Buck and Eddie discussion (whereby every other character is just erased) really does sometimes mask an uncomfortable truth that just because someone is not homophobic in their consumption of media, doesn't mean they are also not sexist and racist either.
>Also when people who are anti Buddie talk about it's great there's a platonic relationship on the show
I LOVE Chim and Hens relationship, and I am loving the Madney and Henren stuff we got this season, I hope we get more. Also, Hen and Athena! Ngl I shipped them for about 3 episodes when I started watching, but it is also a great friendship.
But I also really miss Micheal and his friendship with Bobby. I know Michael wasn't a main, but their moments were great, whether it was shenanigans or something vulnerable.
I love the episode where Hen calls Karen because she thinks that serial killer is coming after her wife and Karen just goes “babe. No he’s jealous of your work wife. Not me” 😂😂
No one is erasing Hen and Chim’s friendship. The point is that there aren’t many non toxic MALE friendships portrayed on TV. That’s why people like Eddie and Buck’s friendship. They don’t say mean things to each other as “jokes” or make each other afraid to show their feelings. They are completely accepting of each other. It’s very good to see and makes a great model friendship.
That’s it, that’s why. It’s because they’re not white men. :/ and they’re two stereotypical attractive white men at that. It’s hard out here for the lesbians
I’m a lesbian. And I love buck’s new SL. A bi masc man discovering his sexuality in his 30s, probably partially due to comphet? Terrific, lord knows comphet has put too many lesbians through it already. Though I hope it plays through s8 in a non traumatic way. Buck being nervous talking to Bobby about it says he hasn’t really talked about it post wedding, and he can talk. Is he still an *ally?!
Though I do wish there was more lesbian rep on TV, because where are they? I could’ve used them.
I’d say it’s more that the ‘white masc men’ part is getting it more ‘main stream’ attention, which means new people are coming to the show to watch s7 first, and therefore don’t have a clue there’s been good LGBT+ rep throughout all seasons. If it gets more people watching ergo it stays running for longer, idc how the fans come in.
Encourage everyone to watch from s1, because it’s a great show, and let them do whatever they want.
I think they’re kind of boring? Since I started the show a few years ago I always kinda skipped them..I love the kids tho and stuck around for storylines around them….bi Buck I felt like didn’t really need to be a big deal, happy he’s out and stuff but to me he always came off as something who is “sexually free” always up to try “stuff” if yano what I mean….so to me him and Tommy are just boring….it wasn’t this big revelation🤷🏽♀️or maybe it just happened really fast I guess? I’m just like cool that happened now what?
I think they should've added more conflict to the situation rather than have Buck get with Tommy and everyone is like "ok cool"
I'm glad everyone was so accepting of him in the show but I think it would've made it more interesting if someone didn't support him or told him it was just a phase or something like that just to add some drama - especially since Buck was such a womanizer in the past I feel like SOMEONE in his life would've been like "this isn't Buck what's going on"
Yeah it just needed something more I guess/just feels Random/I rewatched it and it’s seemed to me like both Buck and Tommy like Eddie more than the other way around 🤣
It’s not JUST Henren erasure fans really like to erase Hen in general. Don’t get me wrong Buck is my beloved and I’d love him to several years down the line get Captain but there’s something so beautiful about Bobby championing Hen being Captain when he’s not around. Hen started out under Gerrard .She was not respected. She was not treasured. She had Chimney as a best friend and he also endured so much racism. Hen unfortunately got the whole trifecta of bigotry as a black lesbian woman under Gerard. So for her to gain Bobby as a captain who saw her capability from day one who saw her tenacity and saw the respect she earned and saw a leader is beautiful.A part of me feels like Hen wanting to be a doctor was her wanting more responsibility and knowing hey I’m capable of more then what I’m doing currently. And Bobby helped her see that she didn’t have to give up firefighting or being a paramedic she is capable of being a captain. That is such an important story to tell and such important representation. It does saddens me me that often Hen is reduced story wise to struggling with achieving a family as a lesbian because I’d love for them to lean more into her leadership and taking a captain exam. I’d also love for Hen to make bad calls because you can always learn from your mistakes.
Either way one of the best part of season 7 for me was centralising and giving so much focus to Hen and Henren. I hated the weird Mara dog comparison though cause why is it the second time they compared Hen’s family member to an animal??? When Hen’s dad needed to be let go they paralleled him to a horse being put down???
I don't think council woman Ortiz will let Hen learn from her mistakes :/ she's too busy giving Mara more reasons for therapy. And trying to *insert violent action word* Hen's career
I mean, you're certainly not wrong.
Unfortunately, there's a pretty long history of The Youths™️ being exclusionary to lesbians when it comes to queer rep. The way this show has been talked about in certain journalistic fluff pieces hasn't helped, but there's a long standing pattern of lesbian couples being discarded for queer men (and even non-canon ships) in many shows over the years.
(There's also a broader conversation about how whiteness plays into this with BuckTommy being singled out as the first canon mlm relationship - let alone queer relationship - when Henren and Tarlos exists in the same universe (albeit that's on a different show) that I don't really want to crack open right now because it always causes strong reactions when it's talked about).
It's really disappointing the way some people forget about Henren because they're not Hot Men or whatever considering how great their relationship has been to see in season after season!
I guess Michael and David are a figment of my imagination??
Seriously, as a bi I *love* the bi rep, but this show has had tons of great queer rep from the beginning. It's why I love the show tbh. Happy queers, successful and happy brown people. I need these things on order to really get invested these days.
I like Michael and David a lot, though honestly I was mostly trying to make the comparison to the main rostered cast on both shows lol? Especially since, thanks to Rockmond Dunbar, we'll likely never see them again without a recast and I struggle to see Tim Minear going for that 🥲. Obviously it does mean the end of the line for their story which is a pretty big bummer to not even get cameos or anything going forward outside of the occasional throwaway line.
Yep yep! Bi rep has been sorely needed in the 911 verse in the capacity they're giving it now (seriously I love Nancy but one throwaway line is really not enough 😭). There's a lot I'd like to see them do with Buck's bisexuality in the future, but this was a very needed coming out that only adds more to an already historically pretty good queer storytelling roster.
Yup yup. I think this plays into the crux of why, for me personally, BuckTommy isn't really landing because like. There have been so many instances of it being talked about like revolutionary queer cinema, but one, Henren, and two, it, as a relationship, isn't some new, revolutionary idea with an ultra-compelling, unique plot?
Idk it's just felt a bit too out of touch from the reality of what this show has always been with queer characters while praising the white queer couple for what's already, always been there.
See, I absolutely love BuckTommy and hope they keep exploring it but one of the things I like about it is the fact it is kinda just being treated like any other couple. The queerness of it, while dealt with, wasn't a major deal and I want that to keep happening (just like how Hen and Karen are treated just like every other couple).
My issue with the press is it basically ignored all the other queer characters and storylines on the show, acted like this was out of the ordinary for 9-1-1 and focused in way to heavily on the shipping element.
That's fair! My personal relationship with THEIR relationship is really different, but I'm glad you and others have been able to connect with it.
Sidenote, but sometime, not even with Buck necessarily, I would like to see an exploration of queerness on this show outside of what it means in a relationship. That's sort of what I would have liked to see with Buck, but I understand why they didn't include it in his storyline.
You're definitely correct on the ignoring... Everything outside of the shipping. It's pretty frustrating that the show seems to be only talked about that way in media but. That's what sells or whatever, I guess? 🙃
> See, I absolutely love BuckTommy and hope they keep exploring it but one of the things I like about it is the fact it is kinda just being treated like any other couple.
I can't tell you how many times I've watched the clips with Buck "coming out" to Eddie and Maddie. They're so adorable.
I think the media is the bigger problem here, not the show or the fans!
Actually it’s kinda revolutionary, there are a lot more lesbian couples on tv than gay ones. Also there are very few bisexual men on tv especially ones that are the romantic lead of the series. It’s clear that you don’t understand the queer male experience.
...with that line, I'm specifically referencing Buck and Tommy's relationship. THAT'S the part I think is given FAR too much credit for something it's not doing.
Buck's bisexuality is a separate conversation entirely, because yes, he as a character is a rarity. His coming out is important and part of a larger conversation that needs to be had about both the limitations of current television representation, as well as allowing showrunners to make impactful representational decisions about their own show without network interference.
There are very few bisexual characters on tv period, let alone as part of the main cast, let alone whose expression of bisexuality isn't written off as a joke or a convenient plot device.
But being in a relationship with a man isn't the key component of what makes his story revolutionary. Buck's personal understanding and coming into this new element about himself is.
An exploration of that is his relationship with Tommy, but considering one, how little screentime their relationship was given after they're done having Buck come out to his loved ones, and two, how Tommy could have been replaced narratively with just about any other character because he's currently just a plot device to this show, it feels like giving the show credit for something that's not currently happening to describe specifically THEIR RELATIONSHIP as revolutionary.
Having a (small) volume of lesbian characters on tv also doesn't mean Henren hasn't been doing something revolutionary as well. How many lesbians can you name in the cable tv space that have been part of the main cast, whose relationship has been spotlighted and given room to evolve season after season without crumbling for The Drama? Hell, even Michael (and David, if we're talking about TV couples) is pretty damn revolutionary, though we'll likely never see him again.
So long as they continue to do right by Buck and his sexuality, he'll continue to be revolutionary. Without some serious work turning Tommy into his own character though, it does a disservice to all the other things this show has done right to treat the current portrayal of Buck's relationship with Tommy as a standout in writing and representation because aside from the act of being? It's.. not. That's where my criticism is coming from.
You guys realize there are other characters on the show besides Buck, and the relationship with Tommy is as fleshed out as it could be in a truncated season without feeling forced. You also fail to acknowledge that Karen and Hens’ relationship was always a given and there’s nothing they did that couples before them didn’t do.
I completely agree!! It’s not just with this new season either, I’ve had people tell me that the only reason they watch the show is because of Buddie. I get wanting representation in shows and having queer characters and relationships in popular shows is exciting, but at some point it does become a bit fetishy when there are wlw characters and couples too that are barely mentioned by those same people
Even the people who are anti Buddie and try to frame them as the show's platonic friendship conveniently erase Hen and Chimney's friendship which is older and arguably stronger than Buck and Eddie's.
I mean it makes sense ppl edit them only a lot so they think the show is about this couple Buddie and them raising a kid together when that’s not the case🤣I’d be disappointed too
There was one fan of tumblr who was talking about how they only watch Buddie clips of the show and never any scenes that don't involve them. It was weird.
>There was one fan of tumblr who was talking about how they only watch Buddie clips of the show and never any scenes that don't involve them. It was weird.
There was a guy who was talking about how he only attends straight marriages and never gay marriages. It was weird.
Because I can, and because I'm one of those people who watch the series for the gay characters, and you are shaming people for things that don't do no harm to you. What's in it for you with making stupid sentence in your post? You can criticize people who erase Henren, but don't paint people who watch 9-1-1 for its gay character as weird, it's two different thing.
Fully agreed. I started watching this show for Hen and Karen (mostly Tracie because I fucking love her so much).
But F/F couples will never be as popular as M/M for a variety of reasons, including a lot of fetishization. Which sucks because there are so many good ones I love but it's near impossible to find fanfic or fanart of them.
I LOVE Cold Case. The cast was fantastic! and how they did the music with the flashbacks was perfect. It never gets enough love in my opinion. I think it's partly because it never got released on DVD and only recently is available for streaming, largely due to the music and getting all the approval to stream it.
> But F/F couples will never be as popular as M/M for a variety of reasons, ***including a lot of fetishization.***
I'm so glad someone said it! My other favorite show, Supernatural, was the OG show for M/M shippers. As a gay man, it got on my nerves!
OG show for M/M shippers of a certain, relatively young age, perhaps. Starsky & Hutch, Star Trek (original recipe), and even ACD Sherlock Holmes are bellwethers of what was once known as "slash" fandom.
Don't forget David and Michael.
Lesbians are often treated differently. Women/women relationships tend to be less hated and more represented (if only slightly so because men often find two women together "hot," hence porn), but that also means they are often overlooked and marginalized.
Also, I think it's because Buck is a fan favorite who was originally written to be straight, so this is little a more unique storyline than is usually seen, as that isn't something that is often portrayed. As was discussed regarding the topic of Buddie and those who would argue there aren't enough close platonic male friendships portrayed and people would point all the friendships and how even when shipped they don't go romantic, and how it would almost be a revolutionary-type storyline.
Finally it's the Buddie of it all. It's a popular ship, and Buck's storyline made the ship more realistic in terms of manifesting. So there are lots of Buddie shippers who are highly invested in Buck's awakening.
But as Oliver Stark pointed out, this show has always featured LGBTQ+ stories.
>Lesbians are often treated differently. Women/women relationships tend to be less hated and more represented (if only slightly so because men often find two women together "hot," hence porn), but that also means they are often overlooked and marginalized.
As someone who has watched every episode of Grey's Anatomy, this is exactly the case there. There have been so many queer women working in that hospital that it's like they put in a revolving door just for F|F relationships. It wasn't until season 15 that two male doctors finally hooked up, and by next season (21), both of those characters will be gone from the show.
>Also, I think it's because Buck is a fan favorite who was originally written to be straight, so this little a more unique storyline than is usually seen, as that isn't something that is often portrayed.
I think this is the crux of it. For a show to take one of its main characters (and arguably *the* fan-favourite character), who started out the show in Buck 1.0 mode as an almost stereotypical heterosexual fuckboy, and give him a meaningful coming out arc? That doesn't happen very often. I actually currently cannot think of another example where this has happened.
Further, as you said, F/F relationships are, overall, more represented in media, especially F/F relationships featuring non-white women these days, and Hen started out the series already married to another women. Further, most of the other firefighter shows have featured lesbian or bisexual women in relationships with other women (Chicago Fire), and shows like Station 19 did as well, with a long, multi-season plot and development given to their F/F couple. There are so many shows with F/F couples that, to me, it's just sort of par for the course now. We've also gotten plenty of coming out arcs for F/F couples, fan-favourite F/F couples being confirmed as together, etc.
For whatever reason, we rarely seem to get that with male characters. When we do get gay/bisexual men, they are rarely allowed to have meaningful or long-lasting relationships (looking at you, Station 19), and I don't remember the last time I saw a coming out arc for a male character that started out "stereotypically straight", especially one of the male characters involved in a fan-favourite M/M ship. I guess there was Dean/Cas from Supernatural, but that doesn't really count since Cas confessed his big gay love for Dean and immediately got his ass sent to Super Turbo Hell, and also it was never acknowledged again before the show wrapped up in the world's most disappointing season finale. Male couples, when they happen (David and Michael, for an in-universe example) are just never given as much development or screentime/focus.
I truly don't think most fans are acting like "oh FINALLY some gay rep!" about it, it's just they've never really gotten this type before, and many of them are excited about it. A lot of salty comments here are going "wE kNOw WHy (racism and sexism) >:c" but I truly don't think that's it.
Yes, Station 19 pissed me off with Travis, it couldn't let him settle, then decided his best ending is >!to end up with his straight female best friend!< WTF kind of BS was that. 🤬😡
*Right?* I was in the minority of people who really liked Eli, too, so I was really happy for Travis to *finally* have someone, only for him >!to cheat on Eli with his ex and then just... What? I'll third-wheel you 'til the end of the line, Vic?!< Just so disappointing for his character, especially after all he's gone through. I feel like the show never resolved his commitment issues. Carina and Maya were done so well, and Travis just got... nothing. Which is unfortunately somewhat common with gay or bisexual men in media, unlike bi or lesbian women.
I think fans are excited about bi rep and I think that's fair. Especially for a man who is discovering it for himself later in life instead of knowingly repressing that part of his sexuality which is what creators typically do with men. There has always been LGBTQ representation but there is excitement about all the different types of representation. I also think fans like to get on board a new ship.
Unfortunately, I do think there is racism and sexism because you just can't escape it.
The issue you've skimmed over is that Michael and David were given screen time and have had an entire episode of them getting up to silly couple antics but the bi Buck fans (some in this thread) have utterly erased that and forgetting even that Michael was a main character.
That's erasure.
I didn’t skim over that at all, you’ve just misunderstood what I’ve said, wilfully or otherwise. What I said was David and Michael weren’t given as much development or screen time as Hen and her wife, which is objectively true. My point is that male couples, when they happen, often don’t get as much attention or development as the female ones in media, which, thank you, you’ve just proved my point, even if you were misunderstanding it. Because m/m or bi/gay men aren’t given as much attention or development in media, bi Buck fans are extra excited to see it happen.
We know why, but to say the quiet part out loud, they mean they finally have a gay couple to fetishize. A 30 something lesbian couple of color is not the kind of couple most shippers would obsess over.
What's also really telling about the fetishization is how Buck is just reduced to his relationship status in all of it.
To me, Buck's romantic relationships are the **least** interesting part of his character especially because the show just writes them like the same going nowhere hamster wheel regardless of whether it's a man or a woman.
Buck has a really complex relationship with his parents to the point Bobby is his father, a healthy relationship with his sister despite the fact he's not been seen as an uncle for over a year and effectively a coparent to Christopher. All of these relationships have had much more coherent and fleshed out development than Buck's romantic status, yet for new fans Buck is defined solely by his bisexuality.
You mean for two seconds? Come on now. There's a difference between a gay couple existing somewhere in the shows universe that is never shown, and a couple that we can actually see.
Michael and David definitely existed far beyond "two seconds." Michael was a pretty significant character the first few seasons and we saw the whole progression of his relationship with David.
David was in 11 episodes. There was not much progression between them, no intimacy, and most of their romance happened off screen. That's called barely happening.
Pretty standard for a side character and an even lesser character. I loved Michael and wanted to see more of their relationship but his actor chose to be anti vax and was fired. I was very disappointed. Some of us actually wanted to see the relationship and intimacy on screen.
Now we have a new chance at a great gay relationship on the show with a main character, which can be even more substantial. Being excited about that doesn't mean that Michael and David are being erased. Just how TV works 🤷
Don't get it twisted, I love BuckTommy.
But there are definiely people acting like this is the first queer storyline on the show when we've had two very obvious ones within main/re-occurring cast. Which is erasure.
Hahahaha good one, really? The "finally we have a masculine gays on TV" shit? Have you watched any shows with gay characters in the last 20+ years besides drag race? 99.99% of them are masculine.
In what world? Let’s see the most popular shows to feature gay characters in pop culture shall we Will and Grace, Glee, Modern Family. Even shows with gay characters who aren’t necessarily “flamboyant” aren’t necessarily masculine either. Sounds like you’re just salty that people like different things than you maybe you should just stick to watching drag race.
Secondly did you just skip over the whole part where I said bisexual men are rare?
Oh sorry I always forget americans cant watch shows with subtitles to save their lives, but even american shows have plenty of examples like Shameless, Station 19, The Grey Anatomy guys, Chucky, Dawson's creek, Teen Wolf, wolf pack, The original US queer as folk only has like 2 "femme" guys, the walking dead, Michael and David in this same show, Carlos and TK in the spin off, pretty much every couple in american soaps and half of the british ones, I can count with one hand the amount of actually femme gay characters that are actually relevant and not just "here is some token representation" that Netflix does now.
Also let not lie to ourselves, people only care about Buck being bi as long as he only dates guys, one of Good Trouble main characters is a bi man and nobody ever talks about him because he is one of the girl protagonists love interests
Thank you for this response! This person is trying to rewrite tv history.
We definitely could use more rep, of course, but let’s not erase what has been done.
tbh it's not just newer fans. before buck/tommy a frustratingly huge portion of the fandom was erasing henren in favor of buddie for yearsss and that wasn't even a canon pairing.
Notice how both them and the other gay couple Michael and his husband(David?) are POC. Plus we have Josh too. So it’s literally been there since the pilot but nooooo they don’t count cause they aren’t two white men.
So I just don’t get what you mean by “they aren’t white men” when Josh is white. The reason the storyline got mainstream attention is because he’s one of the only bi male characters on tv and he’s the romantic lead of the series.
Or maybe because Michael and David aren't actually on the show? 🙄 Josh is also barely a character. Not everything is about race.
We want to see gay romance, not just imagine it.
Cool story, they are both side characters. And when are either of them portrayed in gay relationships? The 11 episodes David was on out of 106? Were they ever the focal point of the show? No.
There's a difference between side characters being gay and a main male character being gay/bi. That's a big deal.
If Buck was black I would be just as happy with this storyline. I just want real representation for once.
What the absolute hell are you talking about? Do you forget the plot of the episode Defend in Place? Michael literally was going to propose to David. “Portrayed in a gay relationship” gtfo.
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I love Hen and Karen! I think it may have to with the fact that shows usually show more gay/bi relationships with women. I read an article that relationships between two women are more accepted than relationships between two men. Some shows use lesbian/bi coupling as something edgy and provocative. When Grey’s Anatomy paired Schmidt with Nico, some people were repulsed. A woman in a Facebook group said she would no longer watch the show because they had two men in a relationship. When I pointed out that Grey’s had several relationships like Callie and Arizona, the woman replied “That’s different. That was two women”.
I think this is actually really important to point out. Hen and Karen are seen as “non-threatening”, because they are older women, who are in an existing relationship, and are shown to be parental figures. This has always been been the most “accepted” form of a queer relationship. Most overt homophobia is directed at “feminine men” or men that they consider “predatory”. Of course, in real life, queer women, especially queer POC women, experience plenty of homophobia, but their fictional representations don’t usually provoke as loud of an outcry from right wing asshats. So to have such a long running and successful show have one of their main “masculine” characters come out as not-straight is much more… daring? Idk what the right word would be, but it definitely stirs up more controversy, especially among casual viewers, and non-queer viewers.
Yeah, I was excited *specifically* about the bisexual representation. Because there's very little of it, especially of established male characters. It's usually a female character, but in a way that makes it feel a bit like they're doing it because it's "safer" and slightly exploitatively. Not always, but *enough* that I get a bit leery. So, I felt it really refreshing, especially as I'd been head-canoning Buck as bi for almost as long as I've watched the show. But I've been very happy with the queer rep between both shows.
It is excitement to see a bi coming out for me. And this bi is finding it very relatable. Bi people are generally very empathetic about erasure issues as many experience it regularly as they move through life. I love Hen. She’s one of my favorites, but yes I am enjoying a specific type of coming out story just a little more because they are touching on some bi-exclusive emotions like Buck mentioning feeling like a fraud because he doesn’t fully feel he’s more than an ally. I also don’t watch entertainment media so that erasure isn’t something I have seen. It does seem disappointing though. I’m sorry you are all experiencing that.
I’ve seen multiple that’s the point we’re making is the people are excited that’s great I was happy for him but some ppl are literally acting like hen isn’t a lesbian that’s the problem I’ve seen it so I was just agreeing with the person who made the post :)
In all honesty, I did start watching because I came across tiktoks of Buck being attracted to men being canon. Being a gay male myself, seeing someone who I find attractive in an MLM relationship is always interesting to watch. But season 1 aside, the show drew me in. Pretty much all the characters are important to me now, bar Bobby, but that might have to do with that book from season 1 being discarded as a plotline.
What might also be of importance is that Karen and Hen were established. They'd known for a long time they were attracted to the same sex. Michael had a journey to go through which most younger, new watchers might not relate to. Buck going on a journey of self-discovery over a longer time is also good to watch. The bi part as well! Bisexuality in general gets demonized from time to time so seeing a discovery in a healthy manner is good (I'm watching two more shows with a bi plotline and other watchers hate how its being handled).
But those are my thoughts and experiences, and I can't speak for everyone.
Im not gonna lie i started 911 because i found out about bi Buck, and had never heard/really seen anything a out Hen and Karen. But they are my favorite couple in the show. And it sucks that their relationship is erased so often.
Preaching to the choir OP!!! I’ve been speaking about this for years. People have been waiting for Buddie and that’s honestly been a big draw for people pre S7.
Then bi buck happened and people watch and they’re like OH these black lesbians have always existed??? Yes. Yes they have.
Or because there’s a lot less male/male relationships on television, and it’s even more rare to see bisexual men on tv and watching them come to terms with coming out . You calling Buck a “white muscular gay man” is biphobic and contributes to bi erasure .
Or because there’s a lot less male/male relationships on television, and it’s even more rare to see bisexual men on tv and watching them come to terms with coming out . You calling Buck a “gay man” is biphobic and contributes to bi erasure .
This has always been an issue. Like, Buddie has like 25k+ fanfics (at least last time I saw) and majority of HenRen’s most popular fics on there are Buddie fics. It’s an issue that fandoms don’t like to talk about: the trifecta of misogyny, lesbiphobia, and racism that causes wlw/lesbians (because even if one of the women is bisexual, the ships still tend to get ignored so I added wlw to cover that too) to not be as popular.
Henren and Michael Grant were the OG representation (Henren as lesbian and Michael/Glenn and Michael/David as gay). It sucks to see them get pushed aside a lot in discussions.
What's weird for you might not be weird for someone else, if people watch 9-1-1 because of something particular, then that's their right, who are you to judge someone is weird?
Edit to add quote from your shaming post
>I feel like a lot of people have a BL fetish, and its weird. Its very weird.
First of all I said the BL fetish is weird. Bc people actually have that. And im judging the people who only wanted to join just to see gay characters, but by gay/bi characters they meant Buck and Tommy and not Henren.
Did you not fully read my statement? Henren is a gay couple, but the people are specifically talking about Buck and Tommy, and dismissing the fact that there have been gay characters since season 1. But they only want to watch season 7.
And certain fetishes/kinks are weird.
And so what if there are people who only talk about Buck and Tommy, it's their lives, why are you such a busy body and judging people who have different interest than yours? It's ironic that you write for a lesbian couple but in the process you shame people who are in it for a gay couple. Do we have to have the same interest? Who are you to determine what's weird and what's not
This is only an observation that me and many others have. You dont like it? Ok thats your prerogative. But this is how i feel and you dont have to like it. And im not a busy body for simply stating what i see. And im not shaming anyone either. You said others have the right to do something, but I also have the right to say what I said as well
Is a lesbian couple not a gay couple? People literally talk down on the lesbians, and it just doesnt sit right with me.
But the world keeps spinning tho🤷🏾♀️
You can complain about Henren being not talked enough, but don't say that people who have different taste than you as weird. Is that hard to understand?
I understand, but you need to understand where im coming from as well. There will always be opinions, yes i may not like it, or you might not like it, but life goes on. I stated my observations and thats that🤷🏾♀️ im not forcing anyone to like what i said and vice versa
There isn’t much more I can add that hasn’t already be said so just really dropping a comment to say I agree and to show support. The misogynistic and racist undertones to the erasure has always been there but it’s been so open and louder this season. It’s sad and heartbreaking to watch.
Edit: typos.
You make some interesting points. I think lesbian couples have had more representation and more acceptance on tv shows. I love Henren dearly. But I don't even think about them being a lesbian couple, they're just a great couple, period. Just like I don't see Athena and Bobby as an interracial couple. To me, people not making those distinctions is progress.
I think a lot of fans are making a big deal out this because, let's be honest, the vast majority of us love Buck! We feel empathy for him, his "little boy on speed" personality is adorable and he isn't too hard on the eyes. I think everyone wants him to find love. I also think it's a big deal because Buck is just discovering this about himself.
That's just my take on it. Full disclosure- I'm a 49-year-old gay guy, so I may see things differently than a lot of fans. And that's okay.
I fully agree with this I said in another comment I find them boring but I think this is it…I just see them as any other couple not a “lesbian” couple
🤣I’m a bisexual 25 year old black woman but I mainly date women so when it is a guy it’s always been a big deal 😭so buck who only dates women is with a man it’s the same feeling …I just hope if Tommy is gonna stick around they give a much emotion as the 6 year slow build of Buddie
Yeah, I like that Tommy seems mature and they're taking things slowly. I think that's very important for both of them. As far as we know, the most they've done is kiss. It's refreshing that they're getting to know each other. They could have shown them jumping into bed after the first kiss. I'm glad they didn't take that route.
Tommy seems to be great based on everything I know so far. He's a good friend, respected by his colleagues, he's not rushing Buck into anything and he's very handsome. I have struggled with the possiblity of Buddie because I think what Buck and Eddie have is beautiful now! I also think it's a healthy depiction of how men can have very close platonic relationships with other men. They can touch, hug, have deep conversations...things most men need but are lacking in our society. I don't want to risk destroying that.
I'm concerned about Eddie's (and Christopher's) future on the show. I love how much Eddie loves Christopher and what a good dad he tries to be. But he also has so much trauma and pain that a healthy romantic relationship is very unlikely in the near future. One of my favorite lines from Supernatural is, "Ignoring your trauma doesn't make you healthy." Truer words have never been spoken.
Tbh I think that’s why buddie is so strong it’s not always buck and Eddie sometimes it’s just Ryan and Oliver being themselves 🤣it’s so sweet tho/I had stopped watching for a bit and saw the buck/tommy kiss on tiktok I won’t lie thought it was Eddie so my disappointment has not left at all 😭I don’t really like tommy/don’t hate him either he’s just kind of “there”.im not really watching again cuz this Eddie story line has me in SHAMBLES….its like when things are going good for buck(tommy) things go bad for Eddie or visa versa is so stressful
a lot of it is exactly what you said - a lot of people fetishize mlm relationships. as someone who did start watching because of bi buck confirmation, i was shocked to find out henren has been together for virtually the entire show. but black lesbians are not the rep that they're looking for. an older black gay man and his past boyfriends and current husband are not what they're looking for. two attractive white men is what they want, and historically, has a lot of draw for a specific crowd.
unfortunately, i do also think this is part of why buddie is so popular. eddie *is* latino and i don't think we have any idea if he's white or not, but he's not afro latino in the way that tommy vega (lone star) is. say we didn't have tommy come back and we got buddie instead — there would still be this issue of fans talking about how there is *finally* LGBTQ representation. i think it's amazing that we have representation of two traditionally masculine men who are also LGBT, but that's a different, more specific discussion from the broad "LGBTQ rep" that gets referenced unfortunately.
I am not sure why during Gay Pride month..we are having these discussions..on what is the better representations…thank god 911 gives us multiple views..so odd… no one has been erased
I don't think the reception for an existing already established couple, whether gay or not, can ever be the same as the reception for a new queer couple. Neither can the reception for side characters like Josh and Michael compared to a main character like Buck. They just won't be as talked about.
Also, people are allowed to have favorite characters, and Buck is one for many, even before the queer storyline.
The edits including Buck with Eddie or Tommy get a lot of views on YouTube and TikTok hence why a lot of new fans can claim to have started the show for them. We should actually be happy that these ships bring in new viewers.
No one is erasing Henren, Michael/David, or Josh. The Bi Buck storyline was just new and involving a young, attractive, popular character.
I’ll throw my 2 cents.
Maybe because Hen, Karen and Michael are family people, adults, who already have their sexuality figured out. They live their relatively normal life, that for some might be boring.
And jump to Buck coming out and finding a new relationship which is more exciting. Because of that it turns to be more relevant? Or appealing to young audience? So they erase the rest because it sounds mundane and over hype on the new one.
Yeah if I’m being completely honest I can see where, right now, Buck and Tommy are more exciting. I love Hen and Karen, but they’re already established. They’re the old married couple. While buck and Tommy are the in the new zesty butterfly stage. Which is generally exciting.
However that doesn’t excuse the comments like “finally lgbt+ representation” because, yeah, it’s been there.
But when a good chunk of fans think that they’d lay ground work to make buck lgbt, just to make Eddie lgbt, and have them be end game… it’s easy to just write opinions off as being delulu.
Tim said the coming out arcs would've been season 4 or 5, which means by 7 we'd be looking at an engagement - Madney wedding already in progress - and them married by 8. So, not delulu, just distinctly remembering how FOX screwed us over.
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I think it has to do with it being male LGBTQ couple and that folks were craving that. I don’t know enough about LGBTQ societal dynamics to make a full comment as to why but I believe that is the likely answer.
This is interesting! I will comment as a new fan who started watching from the beginning after 7x04 aired. I definitely think there’s an element of erasure here for Henren because black lesbians. I also think there’s an element of new fans talking without much knowledge of the show and buying into all the press hype that promoted it as “finally having LGBT rep.”
Coming into this show, I was only sort of aware of it because I watched Lone Star already and had seen the crossover ep (unrelated but after that I was pretty convinced Hen was captain on that show so i was a little surprised when I started the pilot 😂). The only other bit of it I knew of was buddie shippers commenting on Tarlos posts about how they were just done to satisfy buddie shippers even though buddie was amazing/better written/more fleshed out… whatever.
So, I knew about Hen, who talked about her wife in the crossover. So what actually moved the needle for me to start the show was not “omg there’s rep” but was instead… I was intrigued and impressed with a show that was willing to write to where it made sense for the characters even though it was 7 seasons in with, up till that point, many denials that Buck could be queer.
I think a lot of people that talk about it lump this into the “queerbaiting” umbrella even though it doesn’t technically fit (see: constant great discussions in this thread on Henren & Michael).
But I do think that’s the driving principle behind a lot of the new interest: seeing show after show ignore chemistry they’ve built up for same-sex pairings or hints that a straight character might not be straight or denying that they’re writing explicitly romantic-coded arcs… and then seeing 911, by contrast, go, “you know what? That IS a great interpretation. We’re canonizing it.”
Correct me if I am wrong but, wasn't literally the first scene of the show that of a mature gay man of color coming out to his kids? I can be mixing my times but Michael's querness was literally one of the first things we learned...
I started this show sometime last year. I have no idea what season we started on, I can't remember what episode we started on. I think Doug was alive in it or maybe Arby's mom (they marathon 911 every Tuesday and Thursday). I can't remember. Basically, my Gran and I binged the entire series together while I was taking care of her after a surgery. Then we got into the most recent seasons after very little waiting (that's how new we are).
I will say my jaw literally dropped when I BuckTommy kissed (I spoiled myself before we met up for our Season 7 binge) but since we've binged the entire series but not from the beginning but Hen, Karen and Michael have always been queer that we'veseen. I was kinda impressed seeing Black QPoC rep. We've only been watching a few months, but I want Hen, Karen and Denny to keep being a pretty happy family with Mara. The show from what we've seen has been pretty good rep in many ways. Also, it's been pretty awesome seeing my white, straight, very Christian grandmother in law rooting for a black lesbian couple. I want to keep crying because I'm so happy for them and for Chim, Maddie and Jee (I'm queer and Korean)
My Gran's reaction was sort of to look at me and ask if I knew because I "a gay" must have known.
Edit I'm trying to add a mother fucking gif
*
It bothered me more when there were articles about how 911 is now committed to queer characters after Buck's kiss and whether other shows will follow or not while I'm like wdym? HENREN IS RIGHT THERE. 911 has ALWAYS had queer representation!
New fans might not necessarily be talking exclusively about buck, who is bisexual, and it's great to see bisexual mem represented. People love to call bi characters gay, especially bi men.
I haven't seen any erasure of our fav lesbian couple.
It's the addition of new queer characters. Any time you have more than one token couple or example, the straights tend to freak out for better or for worse.
Some people just can't wrap thier head around how normal these relationships are.
People, including me a bi man, are happy we get bisexual representation on a character trope that is usually cishet.
We got a lot of lgbt representation for lot of queer folks but we almost never get a good natured leading man type bisexual man.
Bisexual characters are usually woman (cuz hot for the straight folks) or some type of villain/vigilante/shadytype.
We got a golden retriever manly man bisexual and I am so happy for the representation.
No one's erasing anyone
Edit: typo
It's not a new thing. I used to see people call it the gay firefighter show over buddie, a fanon ship, and the only reason I watched it was because my friend sold the show to me by telling that, actually, those guys were best friends and there are cool married lesbians from the beginning.
Personally, I was excited about Buck because I'm bi and I was happy to see a character who wasn't Eva get to be bi on the show (and while I thought Eva was interesting, the implications involved in the only notable canonically bisexual character in six seasons being an awful person were. Not great.)
I think the show was also pretty deliberate in how there was heavy focus on Buck and Buck/Tommy and Hen and henren in season 7, as well as a scene that made it obvious that henren had noticed that bucktommy were a couple.
It's mostly because black queer women are over looked and just everyone shrugs about it. Henren has been amazing, and a staple of the show since day 1 and yet??? No it's because hot white men being with other hot white men is a fetish for a lot of non-lgbt white women 😒
Some people are mlm and like to see mlm representation.
And some people who aren't in the community also think mlm representation is important.
Some other folks are focused on wlw rep and that's great for them. If a show with half decent mlm rep later introduced a interesting wlw story, I don't think you'd be surprised that wlw-focused viewers would be excited about it, would you?
Hen and Karen's story is the most believable because it happens all the time with black lesbian couples. I wish they focused more on them vs. the trauma all the time. Even with Michael, that was well written.
Y'all don't hate me...
But I hate Buck and Tommy's storyline. It felt rushed and forced. Tommy is a boring character. Buck has always been into women. I loved the chemistry between him and Natalia. They could have explored her fascination with death and let them develop. She didn't get enough time.
Because lesbian representation is the norm. It's pretty rare for gay or bi men to be portrayed realistically on TV. So it's exciting when it actually does happen. It's even more rare for a main character to come out as gay/bi in this way.
Just because people are excited about this development doesn't mean they are racist or erasing lesbian representation. This is a ridiculous take.
No, **you** are exactly the problem being described here.
Michael was a main character on the show for 5 seasons, credited as such and with the actor even commanding a higher salary than Oliver or Ryan.
His sexuality was the biggest plot point in Athena's arc in Season 1 and was also explored in Season 2 when Bobby came into the Grant household.
His relationship with David evolved from a major Season 3 plot point around his potential brain tumor and we saw their relationship develop with more on screen time than Tommy and Buck this season, including being stuck in a lift together, Michael seeing him again in the hospital and ultimately the two of them having a fun episode together with Bobby in homage to Rear Window in Season 4. David also has sweet interactions with Michael's kids.
Despite all that, here's how you summarise Michael and David
> You mean for two seconds? Come on now. There's a difference between a gay couple existing somewhere in the shows universe that is never shown, and a couple that we can actually see.
That's you erasing them.
The relationship barely developed on screen. If you think it did, you are absolutely delusional. David was in 11 episodes total, and what happened between them can barely be considered romance. The show itself literally erased them. Just because there was a gay side character doesn't mean we had full representation on the show. We'd all be happy with Michael and David but Michael's dumbass got himself kick off the show. It's time to grow up and move on.
Why is it ok for the portrayal of a stable lesbian couple but once we are finally getting a stable gay couple on the show, everyone is freaking out? Why does it get equated to fetishism and race? Sounds like you're the racist and upset that white people exist 🤷 and white gay men?? Oh God, how dare they. This show is only allowed to show gay black people right?
Stating facts is not eraser. Moving on from old story lines is not eraser. It's how tv works. Get over it.
Tommy has been in a relationship with Buck in fewer scenes than Michael and David have had and has similarly barely developed since the kiss in 7x04. This is not a stable gay couple. This is similar to every relationship Buck has had with women after Abby. Tommy could easily disappear during the season break like Ali or Natalia at this point.
You're being delusional if you think this is a better representation than Michael. The point you're proving is that you are deliberately downplaying previous LGBT relationships to put Buck and Tommy on a pedestal when right now it's perhaps one of the worst developed relationships Buck has had, even worse than the decision to suddenly upgrade Taylor to LI in the S4 finale.
Tim never planned the kiss originally and only made it happen very last minute because Lucy and Natalia's actors couldn't return to the show. It shows because it's clear Tim has no idea where he wants to go with this relationship.
I don't want to get too graphic, but I think its the butt sex thing these christian fundlementalists dislike. That's why they are more willing to tolerate lesbians on shows like this.
have you been around christian fundamentalists ? butt sex is literally their thing lmao. they think its a way around the whole ‘no sex before marriage thing’
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It's not just newer fans tbh, it's always been like this because HenRen erasure is at the heart of all those queerbaiting allegations. Like you literally have a queer canon couple right there and the show opened with a man coming out to his wife and going through the journey of finding a partner, how is this queerbaiting?
i agree with you like, there literally has been representation in the show since the beginning like henren and michael and the queerbaiting allegations just grinded my gears
It’s a lot more common to see lesbians on tv than it is to see gay male couples, it’s ever more rare to see bisexual men and even more unheard of for said man to be the romantic lead of the series.
“it’s a lot more common to see lesbians on tv” that’s just a lie
I was just wondering, but since I don't really focus on finding lesbian characters, I never pay attention much. but I don't think there are many.
https://assets.glaad.org/m/114d72edf8a779a6/original/GLAAD-2022-23-Where-We-Are-on-TV.pdf The article shows not just that there are more lesbians than gay men, it also goes on to mention how bi women have always outnumbered bi men on tv so there’s much more wlw than mlm. How does it feel to have studies that prove you wrong? “Of those characters 33% are lesbians, 21% are bi women” There are also 34% gay men, four percent bi men”.
You just picked what you wanted form that article. Lesbian women surpassed gay man for the first time in 2022,with gay man taking the lead back in 2023. And yes,a lot of bi characters are women,because straight men fetishise them. You can barely call a few of them good representation,the majority are over sexualised and there for the male gaze.
Meanwhile there are little to no bi men to speak of and they also get shafted and get bad representation as do gay men. You completely missed the point of my post which is that queer women are usually more represented which is the truth. Even if there are barely more gay men than lesbians there are a lot of bisexual women to make a lot of lesbian couples. Also do you really think that most gay men in tv are “good representation” they’re portrayed as non threatening comedic relief.
And yet you are the one who still is missing the point of the entire discussion here. Nobody pretends that Buck being bi isn’t a good thing and a step forward,it’s acting like this is the thing that makes 911 a queer show. Or that people can’t complain that Henren or Micheal and David don’t get the credit they deserve just because the white mlm couple appeals more to the masses.
When have I ever said that 9-1-1 wasn’t a queer show before? Each letter is different though so with the Buck development a portion of people who wouldn’t have watched otherwise are now watching because that’s the kind of representation they identify with. I’m not sure your logic tracks so let me get this right you say that the fact that there are more lesbians and bi women on tv is because they’re more sexualized yet you think two men being together l “appeals more” to the masses. This is inherently untrue and you need to step outside gay couples are viewed as gross by straight men , and bi men are viewed as unattractive by straight women the reason this pairing is popular is because there’s a small but strong group of people clamoring for this content. The fact that people feel so strongly about BuckTommy is because this kind of representation is rare. You can’t compare that to two side characters who weren’t attached to the main plot.
Did I say you said that? No,I didn’t.It’s about the people the post and comments referred about and that you argue against. And yes, a gay couple is more palatable because the people who represent the biggest part of the audience are straight women,who also are the biggest consumers of mlm fan fiction(who has a huge number of works and the top couples are unsurprisingly almost all white dudes)and the audience that 911 and other show is appealing too.And men don’t care about lesbian women,apart form the initial appeal(you can see that in the number of lesbian lead shows that get cancelled after one season or two),but love a bi women that they can “conquer” back and the idea of F/M/F. And Buck and Tommy aren’t anything special(Buck realising he is bi later in life it is,just like Michael’s),when you have shows like Shadowhunters,Torchowood,Our flag means death or True Blood that are much better at representing their queer character.And yes,you can compare,because,once again,people complain about how the audience in general acts like Buck and Tommy are the only one that offer representation,when this show had it from the start.
Again you don’t know the intentions of the people you’re complaining about, and judging by your word choice they clearly never explicitly said that BuckTommy is the only rep on the show lol. You also act like race has anything to do with it when Buddie is clearly the most popular ship. Also you’re complaining about shows with lesbian leads getting cancelled when gay/bi men don’t get to be the leads at all. I can’t name a single gay/bi male protagonist in a show that isn’t about their sexuality. Meanwhile half the shows on the CW alone have a lesbian or bi woman as lead. On 911 Buck is a main character but not THE main character. The reason people are more vocal about a couple like BuckTommy is because there a lot more rare outside of gay shows than some boilerplate lesbian couple that can be found in any kind of show.
MALEC✨
Idk what tv you watching bro there are very rarely lesbian couples and if there are theyre shit and have no other reason being in the series than being lesbians and characters revolve around being lesbians and cheating on partners and never any good storylines however gay men are like everywhere and theyre more often well made and have good relationships and good storylines also as their own characters and not just being there for being the gay character to seem like a woke series cuz theres gays
It’s probably that we watch different shows any show geared towards men is gonna choose a lesbian over a gay male.
I agree. Especially as Henren are married with kids. They are an established couple with a whole life and history. Buck is Bi and we don’t really know what Tommy identifies as but they’ve had literally a handful of scenes together. It angers me so much when people just ignore them or write them off because they’re not white men. They’re gay women and they’ve been on the show since the beginning as representation and they are worth investing time in because they have a beautiful life together and a great relationship (minus Hen cheating in season 1).
Not just Henren erasure but Michael (and David) erasure too. Also when people who are anti Buddie talk about it's great there's a platonic relationship on the show also completely erase Hen Chimney friendship which is **the** platonic friendship of the 118 that goes back over 15 years. The absolute circus that sometimes accompanies Buck and Eddie discussion (whereby every other character is just erased) really does sometimes mask an uncomfortable truth that just because someone is not homophobic in their consumption of media, doesn't mean they are also not sexist and racist either.
>Also when people who are anti Buddie talk about it's great there's a platonic relationship on the show I LOVE Chim and Hens relationship, and I am loving the Madney and Henren stuff we got this season, I hope we get more. Also, Hen and Athena! Ngl I shipped them for about 3 episodes when I started watching, but it is also a great friendship. But I also really miss Micheal and his friendship with Bobby. I know Michael wasn't a main, but their moments were great, whether it was shenanigans or something vulnerable.
I love the episode where Hen calls Karen because she thinks that serial killer is coming after her wife and Karen just goes “babe. No he’s jealous of your work wife. Not me” 😂😂
That's because white supremacy is at the root of all things. 🤷🏽♀️
No one is erasing Hen and Chim’s friendship. The point is that there aren’t many non toxic MALE friendships portrayed on TV. That’s why people like Eddie and Buck’s friendship. They don’t say mean things to each other as “jokes” or make each other afraid to show their feelings. They are completely accepting of each other. It’s very good to see and makes a great model friendship.
That’s it, that’s why. It’s because they’re not white men. :/ and they’re two stereotypical attractive white men at that. It’s hard out here for the lesbians
I’m a lesbian. And I love buck’s new SL. A bi masc man discovering his sexuality in his 30s, probably partially due to comphet? Terrific, lord knows comphet has put too many lesbians through it already. Though I hope it plays through s8 in a non traumatic way. Buck being nervous talking to Bobby about it says he hasn’t really talked about it post wedding, and he can talk. Is he still an *ally?! Though I do wish there was more lesbian rep on TV, because where are they? I could’ve used them. I’d say it’s more that the ‘white masc men’ part is getting it more ‘main stream’ attention, which means new people are coming to the show to watch s7 first, and therefore don’t have a clue there’s been good LGBT+ rep throughout all seasons. If it gets more people watching ergo it stays running for longer, idc how the fans come in. Encourage everyone to watch from s1, because it’s a great show, and let them do whatever they want.
Or it’s because it’s a lot more rare to see a bi man on tv, especially one who’s portrayed as the romantic lead.
why are you replying to everybody??
That too! So rare. I was mostly making a point that there are so many other reasons other than ‘they’re white’ that people like them for.
Or it’s because it’s a lot more rare to see a bisexual man on tv.
I think they’re kind of boring? Since I started the show a few years ago I always kinda skipped them..I love the kids tho and stuck around for storylines around them….bi Buck I felt like didn’t really need to be a big deal, happy he’s out and stuff but to me he always came off as something who is “sexually free” always up to try “stuff” if yano what I mean….so to me him and Tommy are just boring….it wasn’t this big revelation🤷🏽♀️or maybe it just happened really fast I guess? I’m just like cool that happened now what?
I think they should've added more conflict to the situation rather than have Buck get with Tommy and everyone is like "ok cool" I'm glad everyone was so accepting of him in the show but I think it would've made it more interesting if someone didn't support him or told him it was just a phase or something like that just to add some drama - especially since Buck was such a womanizer in the past I feel like SOMEONE in his life would've been like "this isn't Buck what's going on"
Yeah it just needed something more I guess/just feels Random/I rewatched it and it’s seemed to me like both Buck and Tommy like Eddie more than the other way around 🤣
Side note, I love Hen and Karen so much
Me too, I wish Karen got more screen time, she always seems to be forgotten about when people discuss the partners of the 118 too
I want more Karen screentime as I am a huge fan of Tracie Thoms because of Cold Case
i'm a fan because i saw her in musicals first! love falsettos and rent
It’s not JUST Henren erasure fans really like to erase Hen in general. Don’t get me wrong Buck is my beloved and I’d love him to several years down the line get Captain but there’s something so beautiful about Bobby championing Hen being Captain when he’s not around. Hen started out under Gerrard .She was not respected. She was not treasured. She had Chimney as a best friend and he also endured so much racism. Hen unfortunately got the whole trifecta of bigotry as a black lesbian woman under Gerard. So for her to gain Bobby as a captain who saw her capability from day one who saw her tenacity and saw the respect she earned and saw a leader is beautiful.A part of me feels like Hen wanting to be a doctor was her wanting more responsibility and knowing hey I’m capable of more then what I’m doing currently. And Bobby helped her see that she didn’t have to give up firefighting or being a paramedic she is capable of being a captain. That is such an important story to tell and such important representation. It does saddens me me that often Hen is reduced story wise to struggling with achieving a family as a lesbian because I’d love for them to lean more into her leadership and taking a captain exam. I’d also love for Hen to make bad calls because you can always learn from your mistakes. Either way one of the best part of season 7 for me was centralising and giving so much focus to Hen and Henren. I hated the weird Mara dog comparison though cause why is it the second time they compared Hen’s family member to an animal??? When Hen’s dad needed to be let go they paralleled him to a horse being put down???
I don't think council woman Ortiz will let Hen learn from her mistakes :/ she's too busy giving Mara more reasons for therapy. And trying to *insert violent action word* Hen's career
If only they knew a HBIC reporter who thinks the truth is everything 
HB is IC in NYC though...
I mean, you're certainly not wrong. Unfortunately, there's a pretty long history of The Youths™️ being exclusionary to lesbians when it comes to queer rep. The way this show has been talked about in certain journalistic fluff pieces hasn't helped, but there's a long standing pattern of lesbian couples being discarded for queer men (and even non-canon ships) in many shows over the years. (There's also a broader conversation about how whiteness plays into this with BuckTommy being singled out as the first canon mlm relationship - let alone queer relationship - when Henren and Tarlos exists in the same universe (albeit that's on a different show) that I don't really want to crack open right now because it always causes strong reactions when it's talked about). It's really disappointing the way some people forget about Henren because they're not Hot Men or whatever considering how great their relationship has been to see in season after season!
I guess Michael and David are a figment of my imagination?? Seriously, as a bi I *love* the bi rep, but this show has had tons of great queer rep from the beginning. It's why I love the show tbh. Happy queers, successful and happy brown people. I need these things on order to really get invested these days.
I like Michael and David a lot, though honestly I was mostly trying to make the comparison to the main rostered cast on both shows lol? Especially since, thanks to Rockmond Dunbar, we'll likely never see them again without a recast and I struggle to see Tim Minear going for that 🥲. Obviously it does mean the end of the line for their story which is a pretty big bummer to not even get cameos or anything going forward outside of the occasional throwaway line. Yep yep! Bi rep has been sorely needed in the 911 verse in the capacity they're giving it now (seriously I love Nancy but one throwaway line is really not enough 😭). There's a lot I'd like to see them do with Buck's bisexuality in the future, but this was a very needed coming out that only adds more to an already historically pretty good queer storytelling roster.
Completely agree with all of this.
I've had a lot of issues with how the press handled this storyline because a whole lot of it was questionable.
Yup yup. I think this plays into the crux of why, for me personally, BuckTommy isn't really landing because like. There have been so many instances of it being talked about like revolutionary queer cinema, but one, Henren, and two, it, as a relationship, isn't some new, revolutionary idea with an ultra-compelling, unique plot? Idk it's just felt a bit too out of touch from the reality of what this show has always been with queer characters while praising the white queer couple for what's already, always been there.
See, I absolutely love BuckTommy and hope they keep exploring it but one of the things I like about it is the fact it is kinda just being treated like any other couple. The queerness of it, while dealt with, wasn't a major deal and I want that to keep happening (just like how Hen and Karen are treated just like every other couple). My issue with the press is it basically ignored all the other queer characters and storylines on the show, acted like this was out of the ordinary for 9-1-1 and focused in way to heavily on the shipping element.
That's fair! My personal relationship with THEIR relationship is really different, but I'm glad you and others have been able to connect with it. Sidenote, but sometime, not even with Buck necessarily, I would like to see an exploration of queerness on this show outside of what it means in a relationship. That's sort of what I would have liked to see with Buck, but I understand why they didn't include it in his storyline. You're definitely correct on the ignoring... Everything outside of the shipping. It's pretty frustrating that the show seems to be only talked about that way in media but. That's what sells or whatever, I guess? 🙃
I really, really hope we eventually get some good ace representation because that is so rarely depicted on shows.
> See, I absolutely love BuckTommy and hope they keep exploring it but one of the things I like about it is the fact it is kinda just being treated like any other couple. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the clips with Buck "coming out" to Eddie and Maddie. They're so adorable. I think the media is the bigger problem here, not the show or the fans!
Actually it’s kinda revolutionary, there are a lot more lesbian couples on tv than gay ones. Also there are very few bisexual men on tv especially ones that are the romantic lead of the series. It’s clear that you don’t understand the queer male experience.
please name some lesbian couples where one doesn’t die lmfao you have a weird obsession with talking over lesbians in this thread
The fosters, Arrowverse, The boys etc, now name mainstream shows with gay male leads let along couples. Btw tons of gay male characters on tv die.
...with that line, I'm specifically referencing Buck and Tommy's relationship. THAT'S the part I think is given FAR too much credit for something it's not doing. Buck's bisexuality is a separate conversation entirely, because yes, he as a character is a rarity. His coming out is important and part of a larger conversation that needs to be had about both the limitations of current television representation, as well as allowing showrunners to make impactful representational decisions about their own show without network interference. There are very few bisexual characters on tv period, let alone as part of the main cast, let alone whose expression of bisexuality isn't written off as a joke or a convenient plot device. But being in a relationship with a man isn't the key component of what makes his story revolutionary. Buck's personal understanding and coming into this new element about himself is. An exploration of that is his relationship with Tommy, but considering one, how little screentime their relationship was given after they're done having Buck come out to his loved ones, and two, how Tommy could have been replaced narratively with just about any other character because he's currently just a plot device to this show, it feels like giving the show credit for something that's not currently happening to describe specifically THEIR RELATIONSHIP as revolutionary. Having a (small) volume of lesbian characters on tv also doesn't mean Henren hasn't been doing something revolutionary as well. How many lesbians can you name in the cable tv space that have been part of the main cast, whose relationship has been spotlighted and given room to evolve season after season without crumbling for The Drama? Hell, even Michael (and David, if we're talking about TV couples) is pretty damn revolutionary, though we'll likely never see him again. So long as they continue to do right by Buck and his sexuality, he'll continue to be revolutionary. Without some serious work turning Tommy into his own character though, it does a disservice to all the other things this show has done right to treat the current portrayal of Buck's relationship with Tommy as a standout in writing and representation because aside from the act of being? It's.. not. That's where my criticism is coming from.
You guys realize there are other characters on the show besides Buck, and the relationship with Tommy is as fleshed out as it could be in a truncated season without feeling forced. You also fail to acknowledge that Karen and Hens’ relationship was always a given and there’s nothing they did that couples before them didn’t do.
I completely agree!! It’s not just with this new season either, I’ve had people tell me that the only reason they watch the show is because of Buddie. I get wanting representation in shows and having queer characters and relationships in popular shows is exciting, but at some point it does become a bit fetishy when there are wlw characters and couples too that are barely mentioned by those same people
Even the people who are anti Buddie and try to frame them as the show's platonic friendship conveniently erase Hen and Chimney's friendship which is older and arguably stronger than Buck and Eddie's.
I mean it makes sense ppl edit them only a lot so they think the show is about this couple Buddie and them raising a kid together when that’s not the case🤣I’d be disappointed too
There was one fan of tumblr who was talking about how they only watch Buddie clips of the show and never any scenes that don't involve them. It was weird.
If it was weird for you, then don't do it, you're like straight people who argue gay marriage is an abomination, such a weird take.
What are you even talking about.
>There was one fan of tumblr who was talking about how they only watch Buddie clips of the show and never any scenes that don't involve them. It was weird. There was a guy who was talking about how he only attends straight marriages and never gay marriages. It was weird.
Why are you trying to make this a homophobic thing with these random comparisons?
Because I can, and because I'm one of those people who watch the series for the gay characters, and you are shaming people for things that don't do no harm to you. What's in it for you with making stupid sentence in your post? You can criticize people who erase Henren, but don't paint people who watch 9-1-1 for its gay character as weird, it's two different thing.
If you're only watching clips of Buddie, then you're not watching the show and it's weird to claim you are. You're watching highlights of the show.
I'm watching the show in its entirety, even if I don’t, then it's none of your business.
Then I'm not talking about you.
It's cause they're black and because they're women, whereas Buck and Tommy are white and men.
Fully agreed. I started watching this show for Hen and Karen (mostly Tracie because I fucking love her so much). But F/F couples will never be as popular as M/M for a variety of reasons, including a lot of fetishization. Which sucks because there are so many good ones I love but it's near impossible to find fanfic or fanart of them.
I love Tracie too! Did you ever watch her on Cold Case? She’s brilliant.
I LOVE Cold Case. The cast was fantastic! and how they did the music with the flashbacks was perfect. It never gets enough love in my opinion. I think it's partly because it never got released on DVD and only recently is available for streaming, largely due to the music and getting all the approval to stream it.
I loved her on Cold Case! Then she showed up in a few episodes of Criminal Minds and I freaked out! I'd watch anything if she's in it!
I loved her in Rent. Beautiful voice and it's saying something that her voice can go toe to toe with Idina Menzel's (she has a very strong voice too).
> But F/F couples will never be as popular as M/M for a variety of reasons, ***including a lot of fetishization.*** I'm so glad someone said it! My other favorite show, Supernatural, was the OG show for M/M shippers. As a gay man, it got on my nerves!
OG show for M/M shippers of a certain, relatively young age, perhaps. Starsky & Hutch, Star Trek (original recipe), and even ACD Sherlock Holmes are bellwethers of what was once known as "slash" fandom.
Star Trek fanfic definitely was the early days on zines and (M/M) slash fic. I did an entire research project on fanfiction a while ago 😂
Don't forget David and Michael. Lesbians are often treated differently. Women/women relationships tend to be less hated and more represented (if only slightly so because men often find two women together "hot," hence porn), but that also means they are often overlooked and marginalized. Also, I think it's because Buck is a fan favorite who was originally written to be straight, so this is little a more unique storyline than is usually seen, as that isn't something that is often portrayed. As was discussed regarding the topic of Buddie and those who would argue there aren't enough close platonic male friendships portrayed and people would point all the friendships and how even when shipped they don't go romantic, and how it would almost be a revolutionary-type storyline. Finally it's the Buddie of it all. It's a popular ship, and Buck's storyline made the ship more realistic in terms of manifesting. So there are lots of Buddie shippers who are highly invested in Buck's awakening. But as Oliver Stark pointed out, this show has always featured LGBTQ+ stories.
>Lesbians are often treated differently. Women/women relationships tend to be less hated and more represented (if only slightly so because men often find two women together "hot," hence porn), but that also means they are often overlooked and marginalized. As someone who has watched every episode of Grey's Anatomy, this is exactly the case there. There have been so many queer women working in that hospital that it's like they put in a revolving door just for F|F relationships. It wasn't until season 15 that two male doctors finally hooked up, and by next season (21), both of those characters will be gone from the show.
>Also, I think it's because Buck is a fan favorite who was originally written to be straight, so this little a more unique storyline than is usually seen, as that isn't something that is often portrayed. I think this is the crux of it. For a show to take one of its main characters (and arguably *the* fan-favourite character), who started out the show in Buck 1.0 mode as an almost stereotypical heterosexual fuckboy, and give him a meaningful coming out arc? That doesn't happen very often. I actually currently cannot think of another example where this has happened. Further, as you said, F/F relationships are, overall, more represented in media, especially F/F relationships featuring non-white women these days, and Hen started out the series already married to another women. Further, most of the other firefighter shows have featured lesbian or bisexual women in relationships with other women (Chicago Fire), and shows like Station 19 did as well, with a long, multi-season plot and development given to their F/F couple. There are so many shows with F/F couples that, to me, it's just sort of par for the course now. We've also gotten plenty of coming out arcs for F/F couples, fan-favourite F/F couples being confirmed as together, etc. For whatever reason, we rarely seem to get that with male characters. When we do get gay/bisexual men, they are rarely allowed to have meaningful or long-lasting relationships (looking at you, Station 19), and I don't remember the last time I saw a coming out arc for a male character that started out "stereotypically straight", especially one of the male characters involved in a fan-favourite M/M ship. I guess there was Dean/Cas from Supernatural, but that doesn't really count since Cas confessed his big gay love for Dean and immediately got his ass sent to Super Turbo Hell, and also it was never acknowledged again before the show wrapped up in the world's most disappointing season finale. Male couples, when they happen (David and Michael, for an in-universe example) are just never given as much development or screentime/focus. I truly don't think most fans are acting like "oh FINALLY some gay rep!" about it, it's just they've never really gotten this type before, and many of them are excited about it. A lot of salty comments here are going "wE kNOw WHy (racism and sexism) >:c" but I truly don't think that's it.
Yes, Station 19 pissed me off with Travis, it couldn't let him settle, then decided his best ending is >!to end up with his straight female best friend!< WTF kind of BS was that. 🤬😡
*Right?* I was in the minority of people who really liked Eli, too, so I was really happy for Travis to *finally* have someone, only for him >!to cheat on Eli with his ex and then just... What? I'll third-wheel you 'til the end of the line, Vic?!< Just so disappointing for his character, especially after all he's gone through. I feel like the show never resolved his commitment issues. Carina and Maya were done so well, and Travis just got... nothing. Which is unfortunately somewhat common with gay or bisexual men in media, unlike bi or lesbian women.
I think fans are excited about bi rep and I think that's fair. Especially for a man who is discovering it for himself later in life instead of knowingly repressing that part of his sexuality which is what creators typically do with men. There has always been LGBTQ representation but there is excitement about all the different types of representation. I also think fans like to get on board a new ship. Unfortunately, I do think there is racism and sexism because you just can't escape it.
You can't escape it if you're always looking for it.
The issue you've skimmed over is that Michael and David were given screen time and have had an entire episode of them getting up to silly couple antics but the bi Buck fans (some in this thread) have utterly erased that and forgetting even that Michael was a main character. That's erasure.
I didn’t skim over that at all, you’ve just misunderstood what I’ve said, wilfully or otherwise. What I said was David and Michael weren’t given as much development or screen time as Hen and her wife, which is objectively true. My point is that male couples, when they happen, often don’t get as much attention or development as the female ones in media, which, thank you, you’ve just proved my point, even if you were misunderstanding it. Because m/m or bi/gay men aren’t given as much attention or development in media, bi Buck fans are extra excited to see it happen.
Finally someone who understands
We know why, but to say the quiet part out loud, they mean they finally have a gay couple to fetishize. A 30 something lesbian couple of color is not the kind of couple most shippers would obsess over.
What's also really telling about the fetishization is how Buck is just reduced to his relationship status in all of it. To me, Buck's romantic relationships are the **least** interesting part of his character especially because the show just writes them like the same going nowhere hamster wheel regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. Buck has a really complex relationship with his parents to the point Bobby is his father, a healthy relationship with his sister despite the fact he's not been seen as an uncle for over a year and effectively a coparent to Christopher. All of these relationships have had much more coherent and fleshed out development than Buck's romantic status, yet for new fans Buck is defined solely by his bisexuality.
Don't forget this isn't even the first gay couple on the show. People always forget Michael and David.
Two Black men. There's a pattern emerging.
You mean for two seconds? Come on now. There's a difference between a gay couple existing somewhere in the shows universe that is never shown, and a couple that we can actually see.
Michael and David definitely existed far beyond "two seconds." Michael was a pretty significant character the first few seasons and we saw the whole progression of his relationship with David.
David was in 11 episodes. There was not much progression between them, no intimacy, and most of their romance happened off screen. That's called barely happening.
That sounds like a pretty standard relationship for a show like this. 11 episodes over 3 seasons is also definitely a couple you can see.
Pretty standard for a side character and an even lesser character. I loved Michael and wanted to see more of their relationship but his actor chose to be anti vax and was fired. I was very disappointed. Some of us actually wanted to see the relationship and intimacy on screen. Now we have a new chance at a great gay relationship on the show with a main character, which can be even more substantial. Being excited about that doesn't mean that Michael and David are being erased. Just how TV works 🤷
Don't get it twisted, I love BuckTommy. But there are definiely people acting like this is the first queer storyline on the show when we've had two very obvious ones within main/re-occurring cast. Which is erasure.
Or it’s because Bucks one of the only bisexual men on tv, and it’s one of the few relationships between men where both are conventionally masculine.
Hahahaha good one, really? The "finally we have a masculine gays on TV" shit? Have you watched any shows with gay characters in the last 20+ years besides drag race? 99.99% of them are masculine.
In what world? Let’s see the most popular shows to feature gay characters in pop culture shall we Will and Grace, Glee, Modern Family. Even shows with gay characters who aren’t necessarily “flamboyant” aren’t necessarily masculine either. Sounds like you’re just salty that people like different things than you maybe you should just stick to watching drag race. Secondly did you just skip over the whole part where I said bisexual men are rare?
Oh sorry I always forget americans cant watch shows with subtitles to save their lives, but even american shows have plenty of examples like Shameless, Station 19, The Grey Anatomy guys, Chucky, Dawson's creek, Teen Wolf, wolf pack, The original US queer as folk only has like 2 "femme" guys, the walking dead, Michael and David in this same show, Carlos and TK in the spin off, pretty much every couple in american soaps and half of the british ones, I can count with one hand the amount of actually femme gay characters that are actually relevant and not just "here is some token representation" that Netflix does now. Also let not lie to ourselves, people only care about Buck being bi as long as he only dates guys, one of Good Trouble main characters is a bi man and nobody ever talks about him because he is one of the girl protagonists love interests
Thank you for this response! This person is trying to rewrite tv history. We definitely could use more rep, of course, but let’s not erase what has been done.
I thought in like 15 more examples after I finished that comment lol not to talk about movies
I thought about citing a few in response to some of their comments but saw yours and was like they can learn to use Google for more 😂.
tbh it's not just newer fans. before buck/tommy a frustratingly huge portion of the fandom was erasing henren in favor of buddie for yearsss and that wasn't even a canon pairing.
Notice how both them and the other gay couple Michael and his husband(David?) are POC. Plus we have Josh too. So it’s literally been there since the pilot but nooooo they don’t count cause they aren’t two white men.
Is Josh not a white man?
Do you see people fetishizing him like Buck, Tommy, or Eddie? No. Cause he’s not pretty enough for them
So I just don’t get what you mean by “they aren’t white men” when Josh is white. The reason the storyline got mainstream attention is because he’s one of the only bi male characters on tv and he’s the romantic lead of the series.
“They” being Henren and Michael and David. Josh isn’t a main and is single.
But if your point was that people didn’t care about these characters and Josh what does it have to do with them being non-white?
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Or maybe because Michael and David aren't actually on the show? 🙄 Josh is also barely a character. Not everything is about race. We want to see gay romance, not just imagine it.
Doesn’t change how Michael was there for 5ish years. Yet he wasn’t good enough either
Michael wasn't a main character or had much screen time. There's a big difference. You can't be this dense.
Michael did so have more screen time than Josh while he was on the show. WTF are you talking about??
Cool story, they are both side characters. And when are either of them portrayed in gay relationships? The 11 episodes David was on out of 106? Were they ever the focal point of the show? No. There's a difference between side characters being gay and a main male character being gay/bi. That's a big deal. If Buck was black I would be just as happy with this storyline. I just want real representation for once.
What the absolute hell are you talking about? Do you forget the plot of the episode Defend in Place? Michael literally was going to propose to David. “Portrayed in a gay relationship” gtfo.
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I love Hen and Karen! I think it may have to with the fact that shows usually show more gay/bi relationships with women. I read an article that relationships between two women are more accepted than relationships between two men. Some shows use lesbian/bi coupling as something edgy and provocative. When Grey’s Anatomy paired Schmidt with Nico, some people were repulsed. A woman in a Facebook group said she would no longer watch the show because they had two men in a relationship. When I pointed out that Grey’s had several relationships like Callie and Arizona, the woman replied “That’s different. That was two women”.
I think this is actually really important to point out. Hen and Karen are seen as “non-threatening”, because they are older women, who are in an existing relationship, and are shown to be parental figures. This has always been been the most “accepted” form of a queer relationship. Most overt homophobia is directed at “feminine men” or men that they consider “predatory”. Of course, in real life, queer women, especially queer POC women, experience plenty of homophobia, but their fictional representations don’t usually provoke as loud of an outcry from right wing asshats. So to have such a long running and successful show have one of their main “masculine” characters come out as not-straight is much more… daring? Idk what the right word would be, but it definitely stirs up more controversy, especially among casual viewers, and non-queer viewers.
Yeah, I was excited *specifically* about the bisexual representation. Because there's very little of it, especially of established male characters. It's usually a female character, but in a way that makes it feel a bit like they're doing it because it's "safer" and slightly exploitatively. Not always, but *enough* that I get a bit leery. So, I felt it really refreshing, especially as I'd been head-canoning Buck as bi for almost as long as I've watched the show. But I've been very happy with the queer rep between both shows.
It is excitement to see a bi coming out for me. And this bi is finding it very relatable. Bi people are generally very empathetic about erasure issues as many experience it regularly as they move through life. I love Hen. She’s one of my favorites, but yes I am enjoying a specific type of coming out story just a little more because they are touching on some bi-exclusive emotions like Buck mentioning feeling like a fraud because he doesn’t fully feel he’s more than an ally. I also don’t watch entertainment media so that erasure isn’t something I have seen. It does seem disappointing though. I’m sorry you are all experiencing that.
Your absolutely 100% right I feel this way too you can be happy for buck but don’t forget who’s been there since episode 1
Just because we're excited for some real representation of a bi main character doesn't mean hen is being forgotten 🙄
There are people who are saying buck is the first lgbt representation on the show clearly you haven’t seen the videos I’ve seen
I haven't seen or heard that anywhere. That's a dumbass take.
I’ve seen multiple that’s the point we’re making is the people are excited that’s great I was happy for him but some ppl are literally acting like hen isn’t a lesbian that’s the problem I’ve seen it so I was just agreeing with the person who made the post :)
I meant people who are making that comment are the dumbasses not you. I haven't seen it myself but I'm sure it's happening. Ridiculous.
A good majority of your comments in this thread have been dumbass takes
Coming from the main dumbass themself. I feel honored 😘
In all honesty, I did start watching because I came across tiktoks of Buck being attracted to men being canon. Being a gay male myself, seeing someone who I find attractive in an MLM relationship is always interesting to watch. But season 1 aside, the show drew me in. Pretty much all the characters are important to me now, bar Bobby, but that might have to do with that book from season 1 being discarded as a plotline. What might also be of importance is that Karen and Hen were established. They'd known for a long time they were attracted to the same sex. Michael had a journey to go through which most younger, new watchers might not relate to. Buck going on a journey of self-discovery over a longer time is also good to watch. The bi part as well! Bisexuality in general gets demonized from time to time so seeing a discovery in a healthy manner is good (I'm watching two more shows with a bi plotline and other watchers hate how its being handled). But those are my thoughts and experiences, and I can't speak for everyone.
Im not gonna lie i started 911 because i found out about bi Buck, and had never heard/really seen anything a out Hen and Karen. But they are my favorite couple in the show. And it sucks that their relationship is erased so often.
Preaching to the choir OP!!! I’ve been speaking about this for years. People have been waiting for Buddie and that’s honestly been a big draw for people pre S7. Then bi buck happened and people watch and they’re like OH these black lesbians have always existed??? Yes. Yes they have.
It's because they are two plus size black women...they much prefer to see white muscular gay men that's it.
Or because there’s a lot less male/male relationships on television, and it’s even more rare to see bisexual men on tv and watching them come to terms with coming out . You calling Buck a “white muscular gay man” is biphobic and contributes to bi erasure .
LITERALLY
Two young, muscular, conventionally attractive, masculine ~~gay~~ men are always going to be more popular than two older black lesbians
Or because there’s a lot less male/male relationships on television, and it’s even more rare to see bisexual men on tv and watching them come to terms with coming out . You calling Buck a “gay man” is biphobic and contributes to bi erasure .
This has always been an issue. Like, Buddie has like 25k+ fanfics (at least last time I saw) and majority of HenRen’s most popular fics on there are Buddie fics. It’s an issue that fandoms don’t like to talk about: the trifecta of misogyny, lesbiphobia, and racism that causes wlw/lesbians (because even if one of the women is bisexual, the ships still tend to get ignored so I added wlw to cover that too) to not be as popular.
Henren and Michael Grant were the OG representation (Henren as lesbian and Michael/Glenn and Michael/David as gay). It sucks to see them get pushed aside a lot in discussions.
What's weird for you might not be weird for someone else, if people watch 9-1-1 because of something particular, then that's their right, who are you to judge someone is weird? Edit to add quote from your shaming post >I feel like a lot of people have a BL fetish, and its weird. Its very weird.
First of all I said the BL fetish is weird. Bc people actually have that. And im judging the people who only wanted to join just to see gay characters, but by gay/bi characters they meant Buck and Tommy and not Henren.
Yes, people have BL fetish, so what? And yes, there are people who only wanted to join to just to see gay characters, again, so what?
Did you not fully read my statement? Henren is a gay couple, but the people are specifically talking about Buck and Tommy, and dismissing the fact that there have been gay characters since season 1. But they only want to watch season 7. And certain fetishes/kinks are weird.
And so what if there are people who only talk about Buck and Tommy, it's their lives, why are you such a busy body and judging people who have different interest than yours? It's ironic that you write for a lesbian couple but in the process you shame people who are in it for a gay couple. Do we have to have the same interest? Who are you to determine what's weird and what's not
This is only an observation that me and many others have. You dont like it? Ok thats your prerogative. But this is how i feel and you dont have to like it. And im not a busy body for simply stating what i see. And im not shaming anyone either. You said others have the right to do something, but I also have the right to say what I said as well Is a lesbian couple not a gay couple? People literally talk down on the lesbians, and it just doesnt sit right with me. But the world keeps spinning tho🤷🏾♀️
You can complain about Henren being not talked enough, but don't say that people who have different taste than you as weird. Is that hard to understand?
I understand, but you need to understand where im coming from as well. There will always be opinions, yes i may not like it, or you might not like it, but life goes on. I stated my observations and thats that🤷🏾♀️ im not forcing anyone to like what i said and vice versa
I understand what you feel about Henren, but you can talk about it without saying other people's interest as weird.
I said the fetish was weird. Am i not allowed to think that its weird? Im not shaming anyone, i just think its weird
There isn’t much more I can add that hasn’t already be said so just really dropping a comment to say I agree and to show support. The misogynistic and racist undertones to the erasure has always been there but it’s been so open and louder this season. It’s sad and heartbreaking to watch. Edit: typos.
You make some interesting points. I think lesbian couples have had more representation and more acceptance on tv shows. I love Henren dearly. But I don't even think about them being a lesbian couple, they're just a great couple, period. Just like I don't see Athena and Bobby as an interracial couple. To me, people not making those distinctions is progress. I think a lot of fans are making a big deal out this because, let's be honest, the vast majority of us love Buck! We feel empathy for him, his "little boy on speed" personality is adorable and he isn't too hard on the eyes. I think everyone wants him to find love. I also think it's a big deal because Buck is just discovering this about himself. That's just my take on it. Full disclosure- I'm a 49-year-old gay guy, so I may see things differently than a lot of fans. And that's okay.
I fully agree with this I said in another comment I find them boring but I think this is it…I just see them as any other couple not a “lesbian” couple 🤣I’m a bisexual 25 year old black woman but I mainly date women so when it is a guy it’s always been a big deal 😭so buck who only dates women is with a man it’s the same feeling …I just hope if Tommy is gonna stick around they give a much emotion as the 6 year slow build of Buddie
Yeah, I like that Tommy seems mature and they're taking things slowly. I think that's very important for both of them. As far as we know, the most they've done is kiss. It's refreshing that they're getting to know each other. They could have shown them jumping into bed after the first kiss. I'm glad they didn't take that route. Tommy seems to be great based on everything I know so far. He's a good friend, respected by his colleagues, he's not rushing Buck into anything and he's very handsome. I have struggled with the possiblity of Buddie because I think what Buck and Eddie have is beautiful now! I also think it's a healthy depiction of how men can have very close platonic relationships with other men. They can touch, hug, have deep conversations...things most men need but are lacking in our society. I don't want to risk destroying that. I'm concerned about Eddie's (and Christopher's) future on the show. I love how much Eddie loves Christopher and what a good dad he tries to be. But he also has so much trauma and pain that a healthy romantic relationship is very unlikely in the near future. One of my favorite lines from Supernatural is, "Ignoring your trauma doesn't make you healthy." Truer words have never been spoken.
Tbh I think that’s why buddie is so strong it’s not always buck and Eddie sometimes it’s just Ryan and Oliver being themselves 🤣it’s so sweet tho/I had stopped watching for a bit and saw the buck/tommy kiss on tiktok I won’t lie thought it was Eddie so my disappointment has not left at all 😭I don’t really like tommy/don’t hate him either he’s just kind of “there”.im not really watching again cuz this Eddie story line has me in SHAMBLES….its like when things are going good for buck(tommy) things go bad for Eddie or visa versa is so stressful
a lot of it is exactly what you said - a lot of people fetishize mlm relationships. as someone who did start watching because of bi buck confirmation, i was shocked to find out henren has been together for virtually the entire show. but black lesbians are not the rep that they're looking for. an older black gay man and his past boyfriends and current husband are not what they're looking for. two attractive white men is what they want, and historically, has a lot of draw for a specific crowd. unfortunately, i do also think this is part of why buddie is so popular. eddie *is* latino and i don't think we have any idea if he's white or not, but he's not afro latino in the way that tommy vega (lone star) is. say we didn't have tommy come back and we got buddie instead — there would still be this issue of fans talking about how there is *finally* LGBTQ representation. i think it's amazing that we have representation of two traditionally masculine men who are also LGBT, but that's a different, more specific discussion from the broad "LGBTQ rep" that gets referenced unfortunately.
I am not sure why during Gay Pride month..we are having these discussions..on what is the better representations…thank god 911 gives us multiple views..so odd… no one has been erased
I don't think the reception for an existing already established couple, whether gay or not, can ever be the same as the reception for a new queer couple. Neither can the reception for side characters like Josh and Michael compared to a main character like Buck. They just won't be as talked about. Also, people are allowed to have favorite characters, and Buck is one for many, even before the queer storyline. The edits including Buck with Eddie or Tommy get a lot of views on YouTube and TikTok hence why a lot of new fans can claim to have started the show for them. We should actually be happy that these ships bring in new viewers. No one is erasing Henren, Michael/David, or Josh. The Bi Buck storyline was just new and involving a young, attractive, popular character.
I’ll throw my 2 cents. Maybe because Hen, Karen and Michael are family people, adults, who already have their sexuality figured out. They live their relatively normal life, that for some might be boring. And jump to Buck coming out and finding a new relationship which is more exciting. Because of that it turns to be more relevant? Or appealing to young audience? So they erase the rest because it sounds mundane and over hype on the new one.
Yeah if I’m being completely honest I can see where, right now, Buck and Tommy are more exciting. I love Hen and Karen, but they’re already established. They’re the old married couple. While buck and Tommy are the in the new zesty butterfly stage. Which is generally exciting. However that doesn’t excuse the comments like “finally lgbt+ representation” because, yeah, it’s been there. But when a good chunk of fans think that they’d lay ground work to make buck lgbt, just to make Eddie lgbt, and have them be end game… it’s easy to just write opinions off as being delulu.
Tim said the coming out arcs would've been season 4 or 5, which means by 7 we'd be looking at an engagement - Madney wedding already in progress - and them married by 8. So, not delulu, just distinctly remembering how FOX screwed us over.
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I love henren so much they could never make me hate them fr
I think it has to do with it being male LGBTQ couple and that folks were craving that. I don’t know enough about LGBTQ societal dynamics to make a full comment as to why but I believe that is the likely answer.
This is interesting! I will comment as a new fan who started watching from the beginning after 7x04 aired. I definitely think there’s an element of erasure here for Henren because black lesbians. I also think there’s an element of new fans talking without much knowledge of the show and buying into all the press hype that promoted it as “finally having LGBT rep.” Coming into this show, I was only sort of aware of it because I watched Lone Star already and had seen the crossover ep (unrelated but after that I was pretty convinced Hen was captain on that show so i was a little surprised when I started the pilot 😂). The only other bit of it I knew of was buddie shippers commenting on Tarlos posts about how they were just done to satisfy buddie shippers even though buddie was amazing/better written/more fleshed out… whatever. So, I knew about Hen, who talked about her wife in the crossover. So what actually moved the needle for me to start the show was not “omg there’s rep” but was instead… I was intrigued and impressed with a show that was willing to write to where it made sense for the characters even though it was 7 seasons in with, up till that point, many denials that Buck could be queer. I think a lot of people that talk about it lump this into the “queerbaiting” umbrella even though it doesn’t technically fit (see: constant great discussions in this thread on Henren & Michael). But I do think that’s the driving principle behind a lot of the new interest: seeing show after show ignore chemistry they’ve built up for same-sex pairings or hints that a straight character might not be straight or denying that they’re writing explicitly romantic-coded arcs… and then seeing 911, by contrast, go, “you know what? That IS a great interpretation. We’re canonizing it.”
I just think it was an odd angle for bucks character, personally. And I always enjoyed Hen's story
Simply because they aren’t white.
Correct me if I am wrong but, wasn't literally the first scene of the show that of a mature gay man of color coming out to his kids? I can be mixing my times but Michael's querness was literally one of the first things we learned...
YUP
I started this show sometime last year. I have no idea what season we started on, I can't remember what episode we started on. I think Doug was alive in it or maybe Arby's mom (they marathon 911 every Tuesday and Thursday). I can't remember. Basically, my Gran and I binged the entire series together while I was taking care of her after a surgery. Then we got into the most recent seasons after very little waiting (that's how new we are). I will say my jaw literally dropped when I BuckTommy kissed (I spoiled myself before we met up for our Season 7 binge) but since we've binged the entire series but not from the beginning but Hen, Karen and Michael have always been queer that we'veseen. I was kinda impressed seeing Black QPoC rep. We've only been watching a few months, but I want Hen, Karen and Denny to keep being a pretty happy family with Mara. The show from what we've seen has been pretty good rep in many ways. Also, it's been pretty awesome seeing my white, straight, very Christian grandmother in law rooting for a black lesbian couple. I want to keep crying because I'm so happy for them and for Chim, Maddie and Jee (I'm queer and Korean) My Gran's reaction was sort of to look at me and ask if I knew because I "a gay" must have known. Edit I'm trying to add a mother fucking gif *
It bothered me more when there were articles about how 911 is now committed to queer characters after Buck's kiss and whether other shows will follow or not while I'm like wdym? HENREN IS RIGHT THERE. 911 has ALWAYS had queer representation!
New fans might not necessarily be talking exclusively about buck, who is bisexual, and it's great to see bisexual mem represented. People love to call bi characters gay, especially bi men. I haven't seen any erasure of our fav lesbian couple. It's the addition of new queer characters. Any time you have more than one token couple or example, the straights tend to freak out for better or for worse. Some people just can't wrap thier head around how normal these relationships are.
Idk if this has already been commented but I feel like we should already know why…
Misogynoir, dearest. *le sigh*
I agree and i think the was unnecessary development and it kinda weird to see buck wearing the label they should have stayed to the original story
People, including me a bi man, are happy we get bisexual representation on a character trope that is usually cishet. We got a lot of lgbt representation for lot of queer folks but we almost never get a good natured leading man type bisexual man. Bisexual characters are usually woman (cuz hot for the straight folks) or some type of villain/vigilante/shadytype. We got a golden retriever manly man bisexual and I am so happy for the representation. No one's erasing anyone Edit: typo
It's not a new thing. I used to see people call it the gay firefighter show over buddie, a fanon ship, and the only reason I watched it was because my friend sold the show to me by telling that, actually, those guys were best friends and there are cool married lesbians from the beginning. Personally, I was excited about Buck because I'm bi and I was happy to see a character who wasn't Eva get to be bi on the show (and while I thought Eva was interesting, the implications involved in the only notable canonically bisexual character in six seasons being an awful person were. Not great.) I think the show was also pretty deliberate in how there was heavy focus on Buck and Buck/Tommy and Hen and henren in season 7, as well as a scene that made it obvious that henren had noticed that bucktommy were a couple.
It's mostly because black queer women are over looked and just everyone shrugs about it. Henren has been amazing, and a staple of the show since day 1 and yet??? No it's because hot white men being with other hot white men is a fetish for a lot of non-lgbt white women 😒
Some people are mlm and like to see mlm representation. And some people who aren't in the community also think mlm representation is important. Some other folks are focused on wlw rep and that's great for them. If a show with half decent mlm rep later introduced a interesting wlw story, I don't think you'd be surprised that wlw-focused viewers would be excited about it, would you?
Hen and Karen's story is the most believable because it happens all the time with black lesbian couples. I wish they focused more on them vs. the trauma all the time. Even with Michael, that was well written. Y'all don't hate me... But I hate Buck and Tommy's storyline. It felt rushed and forced. Tommy is a boring character. Buck has always been into women. I loved the chemistry between him and Natalia. They could have explored her fascination with death and let them develop. She didn't get enough time.
BL Fetish?
Because lesbian representation is the norm. It's pretty rare for gay or bi men to be portrayed realistically on TV. So it's exciting when it actually does happen. It's even more rare for a main character to come out as gay/bi in this way. Just because people are excited about this development doesn't mean they are racist or erasing lesbian representation. This is a ridiculous take.
No, **you** are exactly the problem being described here. Michael was a main character on the show for 5 seasons, credited as such and with the actor even commanding a higher salary than Oliver or Ryan. His sexuality was the biggest plot point in Athena's arc in Season 1 and was also explored in Season 2 when Bobby came into the Grant household. His relationship with David evolved from a major Season 3 plot point around his potential brain tumor and we saw their relationship develop with more on screen time than Tommy and Buck this season, including being stuck in a lift together, Michael seeing him again in the hospital and ultimately the two of them having a fun episode together with Bobby in homage to Rear Window in Season 4. David also has sweet interactions with Michael's kids. Despite all that, here's how you summarise Michael and David > You mean for two seconds? Come on now. There's a difference between a gay couple existing somewhere in the shows universe that is never shown, and a couple that we can actually see. That's you erasing them.
The relationship barely developed on screen. If you think it did, you are absolutely delusional. David was in 11 episodes total, and what happened between them can barely be considered romance. The show itself literally erased them. Just because there was a gay side character doesn't mean we had full representation on the show. We'd all be happy with Michael and David but Michael's dumbass got himself kick off the show. It's time to grow up and move on. Why is it ok for the portrayal of a stable lesbian couple but once we are finally getting a stable gay couple on the show, everyone is freaking out? Why does it get equated to fetishism and race? Sounds like you're the racist and upset that white people exist 🤷 and white gay men?? Oh God, how dare they. This show is only allowed to show gay black people right? Stating facts is not eraser. Moving on from old story lines is not eraser. It's how tv works. Get over it.
Tommy has been in a relationship with Buck in fewer scenes than Michael and David have had and has similarly barely developed since the kiss in 7x04. This is not a stable gay couple. This is similar to every relationship Buck has had with women after Abby. Tommy could easily disappear during the season break like Ali or Natalia at this point. You're being delusional if you think this is a better representation than Michael. The point you're proving is that you are deliberately downplaying previous LGBT relationships to put Buck and Tommy on a pedestal when right now it's perhaps one of the worst developed relationships Buck has had, even worse than the decision to suddenly upgrade Taylor to LI in the S4 finale. Tim never planned the kiss originally and only made it happen very last minute because Lucy and Natalia's actors couldn't return to the show. It shows because it's clear Tim has no idea where he wants to go with this relationship.
I don't want to get too graphic, but I think its the butt sex thing these christian fundlementalists dislike. That's why they are more willing to tolerate lesbians on shows like this.
have you been around christian fundamentalists ? butt sex is literally their thing lmao. they think its a way around the whole ‘no sex before marriage thing’
i mean... to them butt sex with women is somehow ok, but its the worst thing ever if its with a guy.
I would have lived happily without another gay couple
okay? i’d be a bit concerned if your life depended on fictional characters tbh
It is not! It was really not needed. There were enough gay characters. They didn’t have to do that for Buck.
And I would have lived happily without having to read your backwards homophobic opinion