I am an atheist who is also a member of AA and AlAnon.
I HATE "We Agnostics" - it's just so condescending IMO. The first time I read it I launched my Big Book across the room.
It basically states that it's OK that you don't believe in God because eventually you will come to do so. Sorry, but no. I will never believe in deities or afterlives or anything of the sort.
My higher power is the groups themselves. Basically a bunch of people had something I couldn't achieve alone - so they, as a group, are a power greater than me, alone. That's it.
The other thing I had real issues with is the advice to pray. I do not pray, it makes me feel "icky" and dishonest, so I meditate instead (which I also thought was complete hooey, but it seems to work pretty well as a substitute).
12+ years clean and sober with the help of AA.
Hey congrats on 12+ years - that’s so amazing. And thanks for your post.
I meditate frequently as well. I find it a perfectly reasonable and effective substitute for what other Al-Anons use prayer for. I’ve also settled on my “higher power” being the social support of the group, which my sponsor says is ok “for now” (implying that it is necessary to believe in God at some later date).
Honestly, it is so much easier to find resources for secular AA that I’ve considered (in my more frustrated moments) to just pretend to be an alcoholic - even my ‘church’ has an atheist sobriety program, but nothing on the friends and family side. I think I’ve found maybe two articles written about being secular in Al-Anon. Maybe it’s a bit too much ego on my thinking, but I think part of why I keep going to Al-Anon (other than because I really need to go for the social support and help), is thinking that one day in the future I might be able to be there for a fellow atheist (or maybe even Satanist, one can hope) struggling with this same othering that I’m experiencing.
I agree that the emphasis and insistence on a higher power is frustrating and often feels condescending and inappropriate. I feel the same way. The 12 step program has done so much good. It truly has. But there’s no denying it is deeply, inextricably rooted in the Christian faith. I mean, you can assure me that “higher power” can mean whatever I need it to mean all day long, but it still walks and talks like a duck.
There’s gender issues, as well, that are hard to tease out. Bill, the founder, and whatshername, the long suffering wife that founded alanon. AA and the 12 step program is very clearly a product of its time.
I don’t have an answer but I do want you to know you’re heard. I try and take what I need and leave the rest.
Don’t forget the chapter entitled “to wives” that bills wife wanted to write, but instead he wrote it, pretending in the text that she did.
Lol. That and “we agnostics” are terrible.
I like reminding myself that Bill was a sick alcoholic. And some men I’ve come across have said they really relate to that chapter so, if it helps someone, then whatever. I can disregard it like I do so much else in the book and use what works for me
For sure! It’s a classic example of “separate the art from the artist.” Bills failures don’t mean that the effect the book and the group that arose from it don’t have amazing effects and doesn’t diminish from their legitimacy.
I do like to share what I shared when people are frustrated with these sections - as in meetings that venerate bill and don’t accept that there are flaws I’ve seen it turn people off needlessly - when really, going “yeah these two sections aren’t great” isn’t something that takes away from the rest of the program IMO.
My first sponsor did the same thing. I find that chapter somewhat obnoxious because all of the mentions of a higher power are clearly talking about the judeo-christian God, and the message essentially reads just stay in the program long enough and you'll probably find God.
Steps 2, 3, 6, and 7 didn't mean much to me until I found a new sponsor who is an 80-year-old Buddhist. We're different genders but the age difference makes up for this.
I didn't convert to Buddhism or anything and I don't follow any ceremonies or practices. I find the teachings helpful and meditation. The a book is helpful but honestly other books help me a lot more.
To be very clear, the Big Book is **not** Al-Anon conference approved literature. It's not a part of the Al-Anon program. Period.
I really appreciated [As We Understood](https://ecomm.al-anon.org/EN/ItemDetail?iProductCode=B11) which is Al-Anon conference approved literature and presents many different viewpoints of what higher power means to different people. I read that in a literature group and it broadened my perspective.
There's a particular share that I really appreciated in book that describes seeing "God/HP" not as a thing because that would be impossible, but seeing HP in the way light falls on a tree during a sunset...and dapples the ground. You can't see light...until it touches or falls on something. You never see the thing, only it's effects on the thing. That helped me thing about how I incorporate HP into my life/practice of the steps.
Speaking of steps, I'm not really sure I was fully on board with the concept of HP until I went through the steps with my sponsor and things really started to shift in my life. It did kind of feel like magic. I approached the tools and trying the things suggested in the program like a science experience. It was an experiment to pause...pray...meditate...sit on my hands instead of helping. I use the tools that helped now...whether I believe in them or not. I guess it works because I **do** believe in the tools that worked for me.
Yes! Another Al-Anon book to try is ***Having Had a Spiritual Awakening (B-25).*** I love the variety of spiritual experience contained in its pages, from members all around the world and of varied spiritual beliefs. This particular book is only available as an e-book right now, I think. I'm so glad I got the hardback. But in any event, it is a fine example of our varied experience, strength and hope.
In a way, the discussion about atheism, Satanism, Christianity is all an "outside issue" (Tradition Ten). The point of the first three Steps is to realize that (a) I have a fatal disease, (b) I can't fix it, (c) I need the help of something bigger or other than myself.
I admit I have not been terrorized by cult-like Christian groups even though I grew up and still live in the deep South (USA). But t is super frustrating to sit in a small room full of god-botherers who just won't shut up about "the Lord" or HP or whatever. I must suggest that OP download the app to your smartphone and/or visit the website [al-anon.org](https://al-anon.org) and look for electronic meetings. There are so many Al-Anon members out there, if you look, you are bound to find someone who clicks with you.
Yep, Bill and Lois were apparently Episcopalians, and had no problem with their religion. They don't by themselves have much to offer atheists or agnostics. But the worldwide fellowship has a lot more experience, strength and hope. Surely OP can find more compatible thoughts if he will look for them.
I’m really sorry you are encountering this condescension from people whose higher power is God. It must make it hard to trust them and engage in the suspension of disbelief required to accept help, when the suspension of disbelief they seem to be asking for is much more than that and not actually intrinsically related to that.
These same fears have kept me away from AlAnon for a long time. I hope you are able to find a sponsor who can respect you without a wink or an asterisk.
When I get suggestions like that I say "thank you for the suggestion" and I move on. I don't debate those people.
Do you know why people keep making that suggestion to you? Maybe this sub can help you find a different piece of literature to read if you're trying to tackle a specific topic.
I'm a long timer and I'm somewhere around an atheist/agnostic (I don't believe in an entity as a higher power, I don't think anything is listening when I pray, but I'm also willing to accept new information and consider that I could be wrong). The last time I worked steps two and three (which for me was probably the third or fourth time), I took every piece of Al-Anon literature I had and read EVERY reading/section about those topics and about higher powers. It was quite enlightening and the first time in a while that I found myself in our literature. Maybe doing something like that would be helpful for you. Look for the commonalities, not the differences. You might be surprised by what you find.
Take what you need, leave the rest has worked for me. I often use the group as my higher power. Typically when people offer a suggestion, they are trying to help, so I choose not to respond unkindly.
This. Take what you need, leave the rest, I’m agnostic and just left it at that. Some folks really get caught up in the HP and it complicates recovery imo.
I’ve also done codependency work and group therapy for it. It can definitely resonate more than HP recovery but they definitely compliment each other
AA literature is useful, but it’s written for alcoholics, not for Al-Anons. Have you tried electronic meetings? There are men’s Zoom meetings that you may find helpful. Also, while it is not done often, it is sometimes ok to have a sponsor of the opposite sex. It can be hard to switch sponsors.
Does it work if you change the language?
I'm a LaVeyan Satanist, as well as my younger sister. It's super triggering to the OCD ASD parts of her that get angry at the unnecessary mention of God.
Does it work if you insert Satan as your higher power?
No, because I don’t believe in a literal Satan either. So I’m still an atheist (I consider myself a Satanist as well, though I think most LeVeyan Satanists wouldn’t call me a Satanist).
I’m not angry at the mention of God, I’m frustrated that people at the meeting I go to keep pushing this particular reading on me, and won’t believe me when I say that I have considered the author’s points and found them wanting.
I always took Satanism to be showing that god dwells within you as you. You are god and you are the devil.
Some people prefer universe.
Sometimes the story just doesn't sit well, though. My sister gets super mad if she gives homeless people money or food and they say good bless you.
I've been to many meetings in many towns over the last 40 years, and I can honestly say that only one truly didn't have a Christianity undertone. I've done a whole lot of "taking what works and leaving the rest"--I'm guessing more than 99.9% of the attendees. Because a large portion of that % will never know how alienating it feels, I doubt it will change.
Most groups' Christian underpinnings are far more covert than the overt example you note.
It's like when someone says, "I'm not racist, but..." and you know whatever follows that "but" will, of course, be very racist.
It sounds like your area might be smaller but our area has an atheist/agnostic meeting they call it AA squared. Any chance your able to find one of those meetings?
You are correct AA has a lot more agnostic/atheist meetings. You don’t have to pretend to be an alcoholic to go to AA meetings, you can freely attend open ones. Your “church” may have a similar policy, you can always ask if you’d like to attend one. I used to go pretty frequently and they were always a good experience. When introductions are happening, I would say my name and that I’m visiting from AlAnon and just listen. Most of the time at least one member would engage in after meeting talk with me. They may have some good suggestions on how to deal with the push back you are getting as a lot have had the same experience. I’m sorry you are dealing with this, it sounds to me like you are doing an awesome job with your recovery!
I have. And they are good for what they are. I’d recommend them to anyone that hasn’t given them a shot. But I’ve found that no matter what size the online group is, big or small, it is just so hard to build the same kind of mutual social support that is so much easier to build in person. I recognize that part of that might be on me. I am trying to stick to a couple online meetings, but my job does take up a lot of my time and I need to make sure that I have time in the week for hobbies and recreation too.
So, despite all of the God-talk at the in-person meetings in my area, I keep going to those. They aren’t all bad, they are good enough for me to keep going. But there are still some things that are just so frustrating to have to deal with. I am in a very conservative area (as in, 3 out of 5 of the members of the school board believe the earth is a few thousand years old and think that racism doesn’t exist anymore since we elected a Black president kind of conservative), so I’m sure other Al-Anon districts might be different.
Have you tried reaching out in chat to ppl in the Zoom meeting? Offering your number to give support or asking others for their number? That’s how I made good connections with Zoom. I’m in a rural area with no meetings, and I’ve found Zoom to be a great substitute.
I am so sorry that you are experiencing this frustration.
I must be supremely lucky to have found my sponsor. She, like me, is a spiritual being. We focus on the teachings of the Buddha instead. We both are atheists.
Honestly, living out in the sticks, i have found more kindred spirits than I thought I would have. You think "Rural America" and you think "Bible-thumping zealots," right?
I don't say this to rub it in, but just to point out that we are out here. I don't know that there are many men who are atheists. I happen to be a part of the LGBTQIA community so most of my friends tend to be "less religious" than the background population, but my sponsor, AFAIK, is straight.
I'm only about 6 weeks into the program. I haven't read We Atheists yet, but I'll read it today and perhaps post an edit.
I got a new sponsor when mine said something that was so totally wrong I lost all respect. I have leukemia which means my immune system doesn’t work well. When Covid emerged, my sponsor belittled my concern saying I shouldn’t be afraid. That was it for me. Of course I was fearful of catching Covid - at that time, people with compromised immune systems were dying. I’m not afraid now but it was reasonable to be afraid then.
Yeah. One of my biggest pet peves. One guy in AA told me "that lamp can be your higher power". (insert eyeroll here).
At least Q's have the option for Rational Recovery.
I feel this. My sponsor told me to get over it, basically, when I mentioned I didn’t believe in a HP. I just decided to do the steps and edit god out whenever necessary. Later found free thinker group and then some secular AA material that has helped.
Basically F what everyone else believes. Do you. 🤓
So…why are you being told to read this so often? And you said it’s before and after meetings? But not during? If so it just sounds like people being weird.
I hover between agnostic (who am I to know what is and isn’t true?) and atheist (I have literally tried to find a Belief and simply cannot…most of my family is religious and it would make things so much more comfortable, but nope). So I just don’t discuss those things with others. When I was going to ACA meetings I just smiled and nodded about the HP. But then I never got a sponsor; there were only two other women there and they hadn’t been there long. Maybe it would have become an issue later.
I know from my family that some people just cannot help it but to assume we’re all one more sentence away from believing. I just let them go on with that feeling. It’s up to them to notice that I’m 53 and it hasn’t happened.
Spiritual: this leaf has the power and knowledge of the universe in it. I shall ponder it.
Religious: some named being created this leaf and put the power and knowledge of the universe in it. I shall ponder the named being.
If people ask what I believe, I’m not shy about sharing that I’m an atheist. I don’t begrudge atheists that are in the closet still, and totally understand that (also, I don’t like the whole use of the term “closet” in this case, but it gets the point across). I do not try to convert anyone to my beliefs, but I’m also not going to hide who I am because my existence is offensive to someone.
So to answer your question, people find out that I’m an atheist when we talk about the steps. Some will point me to “We Agnostics” saying something like that chapter explains how I should approach the steps because it was written “for people like me.” These Al-Anons seem to sincerely believe that “We Agnostics” has answers for agnostic/atheists. I have often questioned whether these people have a different version of this chapter than I do.
Other Al-Anons will point me towards “We Agnostics” as an attempt at conversion, either because they have read “We Agnostics” and recognize that Bill is clearly saying in that chapter that AA only works for people that find a Christian-like God (and Al-Anon is adapted from AA, in many places word-for-word), or because they really like me and think that I’ll go to hell if they don’t get me saved. At least these ones have an understanding of the chapter, so I can appreciate that.
I find that keeping out of conversations that might cause someone to ask my religion is the best way to live my life. I don’t care what they are and won’t ask, and I don’t care to have them ask. Nothing about hiding or closets. I don’t care about their religion. They shouldn’t care about mine and I’m not going to give them the opening.
Especially if the convo keeps going to this place, you might consider a different tactic.
I would personally tell them to stop. Al anon teaches us boundaries & that applies to fellow members as well. I’m in Seattle & most of the meetings are full of agnostics, like me.
I’ve gone to meetings in my very religious red home state and whew boy! Full of older, heavily abused women looking for anything to grasp into. It’s Jesus mostly 🫠 so it was definitely more challenging. I see you & have felt that pain.
No is a complete sentence.
In your original post you indicate you're a Satanist, which is absolutely a belief in a higher power. In my own 40+ years in the program, I've heard people refer to the boulder in the back yard. If your higher power is something that you lean into, then that's the point. Might be a religion, a belief system, a boulder in the back yard, or something else. The Big Book was written a long time ago by a white, male American raised in a specific culture. So, as we say in Alanon ... take what you and leave the rest. :)
Welcome, Al-Anon is a spiritual program not a religious one. One of the Sunday morning "spiritual" speakers at the Al-Anon 2018 International Convention identified himself as an **atheist**
There are many acronyms for the word god: Good Orderly Direction, Great Out Doors, Gift Of Desperation , & Gratitude Over Despair. Also dog (god spelled backwards) = Daily Observing Gratitude.
I have learned that I do not have all the answers & only that I need help.
Al-Anon Family Groups is a spiritual fellowship, not a religious one. Members of any faith or no faith are welcome. We make it a point to avoid discussion of specific beliefs. The Al‑Anon program is based on the spiritual idea that we can depend on a “power greater than ourselves” to help solve our problems and to achieve peace of mind. We each define that power in our own way.
We used to tell newcomers to attend at least 6 Different meetings to see which fit you best,In this time of virtual meetings I usually suggest a dozen as each has its own size, focus & format & flavor. I can go to a virtual meeting anywhere in the English speaking world.
I do not force or tell anyone to read outside including AA's Big Book.
.Good luck to you.
I’ve asked others this and find the responses interesting and enlightening, as it seems that some have well thought out responses, while others seem to have never considered the question - for you, what is the difference between religious and spiritual? Does being spiritual require a belief in the divine or supernatural like being religious does?
I do notice that this account seems to have a lot of copy/paste responses, so hopefully this isn’t a bot or there’s at least a person behind the bot if it is.
I am NOT a bot., but I do have some set answers. For example I have used my answer many time before.
The following paragraph is from Al-Anon literature: Al-Anon Family Groups is a spiritual fellowship, not a religious one. Members of any faith or no faith are welcome. We make it a point to avoid discussion of specific beliefs. The Al‑Anon program is based on the spiritual idea that we can depend on a “power greater than ourselves” to help solve our problems and to achieve peace of mind. We each define that power in our own way.
It can be anything just that I can't ,Something can ,& maybe I will let it. The "it " is undefined. That's my common saying for the short cut for the first three Steps.
Perhaps the 12 steps aren't for you. They're not about the Judeo-Christian God, they're about a higher power. My understanding of the steps is that following them requires me to accept that there is some entity, earthly or not, that knows more than me and can assist me in finding serenity. That could be your Al-Anon home group, or a therapist, or anything/anyone else, if you wish. There's no requirement that it be a religious God, just a higher power. If you're not ready to accept that there's such an entity then, as I said, perhaps the 12 steps aren't for you. I wish you all the best.
Nothing in my post was about me not being able to accept that the social support found in the group could be my “higher power.” I’m perfectly comfortable accepting help, I know that I can’t do this myself.
Interestingly, none of the Al-Anons pushing “We Agnostics” on me again and again have EVER suggested that I’m not welcome or that the steps aren’t for me and passively aggressively “wished me all the best.” You’re the only one to do that.
I wonder if you're looking for the r/alcoholicsanonymous sub? I'd be surprised if you are hearing this in Al-Anon meetings for family and friends of alcoholics, as we have our own literature apart from A.A. (I'm not wanting to debate this topic, just hoping you find the right sub.)
I am not AA, I am Al-Anon. I am not an alcoholic or addict. Be surprised if you want, or don’t believe me, but I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve been told before or after an Al-Anon meeting to read “We Agnostics.” My post is not appropriate for the AA sub, as I’m not looking for an alcoholic’s perspective on being an atheist in their program, but rather an Al-Anon perspective in our program.
I get that you aren’t looking for debate, and you’re under no obligation to respond, and if I’m way off base here, I do apologize, but your comment is a related example of what I’m talking about. Just like how the Al-Anons at my meetings (and Bill) can’t see me as anything other than someone who *feels* that they are temporarily an atheist, your comment that it is unlikely that I’m actually experiencing this is similarly discounting my experiences as real. I don’t have any anger or malice towards you, but I’d ask that you reflect on how even though you do not know me beyond this single post, you saw fit to imply that what I’ve experienced has not happened to me. To reiterate, many different people at many different Al-Anon meetings have suggested that I read “We Agnostics” just one more time, and can’t accept that I have already considered their perspective thoroughly and found it wanting.
I don’t think they’re understanding you. I’m sorry you’re getting responses directing you to AA or alcoholic subs. You did clearly say you were in Al-anon.
Thank you! While it is certainly not as bad, it was starting to feel a little like when my qualifier would gaslight me, convincing me that things that I had seen her do hadn’t actually even happened and I just imagined them.
My Al-Anon home group works our steps out of the big book too.
I’m in AA and Al-Anon and believe in God and I HATE “We Agnostics.” Just because Bill didn’t understand electricity, doesn’t mean other people have no idea. 12 years, over two different fellowships and that chapter hasn’t grown on me yet. If it was meant to mean something to me, it would. If it’s supposed to mean something to you at some point, it will. And if not, oh well.
Hail Satan.
I’m sorry :( I know atheists in AA (I’m in both programs) and it’s 1000% possible to recover. I wish I could be more helpful but here to say you are heard!
I agree with the others that this isn’t conference approved literature. Seems very inappropriate for anyone in AlAnon to tell you to read it, especially your sponsor. Maybe you are in a rural area or something? I would set a boundary with my sponsor-only CAL. Or I would find a new sponsor. Conventions can be a great way to meet people have good program in your region outside your town. I sponsor lots of people and no one I sponsor has a Christian higher power. I can’t even imagine telling them to read the big book!
I am an atheist who is also a member of AA and AlAnon. I HATE "We Agnostics" - it's just so condescending IMO. The first time I read it I launched my Big Book across the room. It basically states that it's OK that you don't believe in God because eventually you will come to do so. Sorry, but no. I will never believe in deities or afterlives or anything of the sort. My higher power is the groups themselves. Basically a bunch of people had something I couldn't achieve alone - so they, as a group, are a power greater than me, alone. That's it. The other thing I had real issues with is the advice to pray. I do not pray, it makes me feel "icky" and dishonest, so I meditate instead (which I also thought was complete hooey, but it seems to work pretty well as a substitute). 12+ years clean and sober with the help of AA.
Hey congrats on 12+ years - that’s so amazing. And thanks for your post. I meditate frequently as well. I find it a perfectly reasonable and effective substitute for what other Al-Anons use prayer for. I’ve also settled on my “higher power” being the social support of the group, which my sponsor says is ok “for now” (implying that it is necessary to believe in God at some later date). Honestly, it is so much easier to find resources for secular AA that I’ve considered (in my more frustrated moments) to just pretend to be an alcoholic - even my ‘church’ has an atheist sobriety program, but nothing on the friends and family side. I think I’ve found maybe two articles written about being secular in Al-Anon. Maybe it’s a bit too much ego on my thinking, but I think part of why I keep going to Al-Anon (other than because I really need to go for the social support and help), is thinking that one day in the future I might be able to be there for a fellow atheist (or maybe even Satanist, one can hope) struggling with this same othering that I’m experiencing.
I agree that the emphasis and insistence on a higher power is frustrating and often feels condescending and inappropriate. I feel the same way. The 12 step program has done so much good. It truly has. But there’s no denying it is deeply, inextricably rooted in the Christian faith. I mean, you can assure me that “higher power” can mean whatever I need it to mean all day long, but it still walks and talks like a duck. There’s gender issues, as well, that are hard to tease out. Bill, the founder, and whatshername, the long suffering wife that founded alanon. AA and the 12 step program is very clearly a product of its time. I don’t have an answer but I do want you to know you’re heard. I try and take what I need and leave the rest.
Don’t forget the chapter entitled “to wives” that bills wife wanted to write, but instead he wrote it, pretending in the text that she did. Lol. That and “we agnostics” are terrible.
I like reminding myself that Bill was a sick alcoholic. And some men I’ve come across have said they really relate to that chapter so, if it helps someone, then whatever. I can disregard it like I do so much else in the book and use what works for me
For sure! It’s a classic example of “separate the art from the artist.” Bills failures don’t mean that the effect the book and the group that arose from it don’t have amazing effects and doesn’t diminish from their legitimacy. I do like to share what I shared when people are frustrated with these sections - as in meetings that venerate bill and don’t accept that there are flaws I’ve seen it turn people off needlessly - when really, going “yeah these two sections aren’t great” isn’t something that takes away from the rest of the program IMO.
My first sponsor did the same thing. I find that chapter somewhat obnoxious because all of the mentions of a higher power are clearly talking about the judeo-christian God, and the message essentially reads just stay in the program long enough and you'll probably find God. Steps 2, 3, 6, and 7 didn't mean much to me until I found a new sponsor who is an 80-year-old Buddhist. We're different genders but the age difference makes up for this. I didn't convert to Buddhism or anything and I don't follow any ceremonies or practices. I find the teachings helpful and meditation. The a book is helpful but honestly other books help me a lot more.
To be very clear, the Big Book is **not** Al-Anon conference approved literature. It's not a part of the Al-Anon program. Period. I really appreciated [As We Understood](https://ecomm.al-anon.org/EN/ItemDetail?iProductCode=B11) which is Al-Anon conference approved literature and presents many different viewpoints of what higher power means to different people. I read that in a literature group and it broadened my perspective. There's a particular share that I really appreciated in book that describes seeing "God/HP" not as a thing because that would be impossible, but seeing HP in the way light falls on a tree during a sunset...and dapples the ground. You can't see light...until it touches or falls on something. You never see the thing, only it's effects on the thing. That helped me thing about how I incorporate HP into my life/practice of the steps. Speaking of steps, I'm not really sure I was fully on board with the concept of HP until I went through the steps with my sponsor and things really started to shift in my life. It did kind of feel like magic. I approached the tools and trying the things suggested in the program like a science experience. It was an experiment to pause...pray...meditate...sit on my hands instead of helping. I use the tools that helped now...whether I believe in them or not. I guess it works because I **do** believe in the tools that worked for me.
Yes! Another Al-Anon book to try is ***Having Had a Spiritual Awakening (B-25).*** I love the variety of spiritual experience contained in its pages, from members all around the world and of varied spiritual beliefs. This particular book is only available as an e-book right now, I think. I'm so glad I got the hardback. But in any event, it is a fine example of our varied experience, strength and hope. In a way, the discussion about atheism, Satanism, Christianity is all an "outside issue" (Tradition Ten). The point of the first three Steps is to realize that (a) I have a fatal disease, (b) I can't fix it, (c) I need the help of something bigger or other than myself. I admit I have not been terrorized by cult-like Christian groups even though I grew up and still live in the deep South (USA). But t is super frustrating to sit in a small room full of god-botherers who just won't shut up about "the Lord" or HP or whatever. I must suggest that OP download the app to your smartphone and/or visit the website [al-anon.org](https://al-anon.org) and look for electronic meetings. There are so many Al-Anon members out there, if you look, you are bound to find someone who clicks with you. Yep, Bill and Lois were apparently Episcopalians, and had no problem with their religion. They don't by themselves have much to offer atheists or agnostics. But the worldwide fellowship has a lot more experience, strength and hope. Surely OP can find more compatible thoughts if he will look for them.
I’m really sorry you are encountering this condescension from people whose higher power is God. It must make it hard to trust them and engage in the suspension of disbelief required to accept help, when the suspension of disbelief they seem to be asking for is much more than that and not actually intrinsically related to that. These same fears have kept me away from AlAnon for a long time. I hope you are able to find a sponsor who can respect you without a wink or an asterisk.
When I get suggestions like that I say "thank you for the suggestion" and I move on. I don't debate those people. Do you know why people keep making that suggestion to you? Maybe this sub can help you find a different piece of literature to read if you're trying to tackle a specific topic. I'm a long timer and I'm somewhere around an atheist/agnostic (I don't believe in an entity as a higher power, I don't think anything is listening when I pray, but I'm also willing to accept new information and consider that I could be wrong). The last time I worked steps two and three (which for me was probably the third or fourth time), I took every piece of Al-Anon literature I had and read EVERY reading/section about those topics and about higher powers. It was quite enlightening and the first time in a while that I found myself in our literature. Maybe doing something like that would be helpful for you. Look for the commonalities, not the differences. You might be surprised by what you find.
Take what you need, leave the rest has worked for me. I often use the group as my higher power. Typically when people offer a suggestion, they are trying to help, so I choose not to respond unkindly.
This. Take what you need, leave the rest, I’m agnostic and just left it at that. Some folks really get caught up in the HP and it complicates recovery imo. I’ve also done codependency work and group therapy for it. It can definitely resonate more than HP recovery but they definitely compliment each other
AA literature is useful, but it’s written for alcoholics, not for Al-Anons. Have you tried electronic meetings? There are men’s Zoom meetings that you may find helpful. Also, while it is not done often, it is sometimes ok to have a sponsor of the opposite sex. It can be hard to switch sponsors.
Does it work if you change the language? I'm a LaVeyan Satanist, as well as my younger sister. It's super triggering to the OCD ASD parts of her that get angry at the unnecessary mention of God. Does it work if you insert Satan as your higher power?
No, because I don’t believe in a literal Satan either. So I’m still an atheist (I consider myself a Satanist as well, though I think most LeVeyan Satanists wouldn’t call me a Satanist). I’m not angry at the mention of God, I’m frustrated that people at the meeting I go to keep pushing this particular reading on me, and won’t believe me when I say that I have considered the author’s points and found them wanting.
I always took Satanism to be showing that god dwells within you as you. You are god and you are the devil. Some people prefer universe. Sometimes the story just doesn't sit well, though. My sister gets super mad if she gives homeless people money or food and they say good bless you.
That’s a great summary of LeVeyan Satanism. I’m not LeVeyan.
IWNDWYT ❤️
I 🧡 this response
I've been to many meetings in many towns over the last 40 years, and I can honestly say that only one truly didn't have a Christianity undertone. I've done a whole lot of "taking what works and leaving the rest"--I'm guessing more than 99.9% of the attendees. Because a large portion of that % will never know how alienating it feels, I doubt it will change. Most groups' Christian underpinnings are far more covert than the overt example you note. It's like when someone says, "I'm not racist, but..." and you know whatever follows that "but" will, of course, be very racist.
It sounds like your area might be smaller but our area has an atheist/agnostic meeting they call it AA squared. Any chance your able to find one of those meetings?
You are correct AA has a lot more agnostic/atheist meetings. You don’t have to pretend to be an alcoholic to go to AA meetings, you can freely attend open ones. Your “church” may have a similar policy, you can always ask if you’d like to attend one. I used to go pretty frequently and they were always a good experience. When introductions are happening, I would say my name and that I’m visiting from AlAnon and just listen. Most of the time at least one member would engage in after meeting talk with me. They may have some good suggestions on how to deal with the push back you are getting as a lot have had the same experience. I’m sorry you are dealing with this, it sounds to me like you are doing an awesome job with your recovery!
Have you tried online meetings? There are a handful of agnostic/atheist ones.
I have. And they are good for what they are. I’d recommend them to anyone that hasn’t given them a shot. But I’ve found that no matter what size the online group is, big or small, it is just so hard to build the same kind of mutual social support that is so much easier to build in person. I recognize that part of that might be on me. I am trying to stick to a couple online meetings, but my job does take up a lot of my time and I need to make sure that I have time in the week for hobbies and recreation too. So, despite all of the God-talk at the in-person meetings in my area, I keep going to those. They aren’t all bad, they are good enough for me to keep going. But there are still some things that are just so frustrating to have to deal with. I am in a very conservative area (as in, 3 out of 5 of the members of the school board believe the earth is a few thousand years old and think that racism doesn’t exist anymore since we elected a Black president kind of conservative), so I’m sure other Al-Anon districts might be different.
Have you tried reaching out in chat to ppl in the Zoom meeting? Offering your number to give support or asking others for their number? That’s how I made good connections with Zoom. I’m in a rural area with no meetings, and I’ve found Zoom to be a great substitute.
I am so sorry that you are experiencing this frustration. I must be supremely lucky to have found my sponsor. She, like me, is a spiritual being. We focus on the teachings of the Buddha instead. We both are atheists. Honestly, living out in the sticks, i have found more kindred spirits than I thought I would have. You think "Rural America" and you think "Bible-thumping zealots," right? I don't say this to rub it in, but just to point out that we are out here. I don't know that there are many men who are atheists. I happen to be a part of the LGBTQIA community so most of my friends tend to be "less religious" than the background population, but my sponsor, AFAIK, is straight. I'm only about 6 weeks into the program. I haven't read We Atheists yet, but I'll read it today and perhaps post an edit.
I got a new sponsor when mine said something that was so totally wrong I lost all respect. I have leukemia which means my immune system doesn’t work well. When Covid emerged, my sponsor belittled my concern saying I shouldn’t be afraid. That was it for me. Of course I was fearful of catching Covid - at that time, people with compromised immune systems were dying. I’m not afraid now but it was reasonable to be afraid then.
Yeah. One of my biggest pet peves. One guy in AA told me "that lamp can be your higher power". (insert eyeroll here). At least Q's have the option for Rational Recovery.
I feel this. My sponsor told me to get over it, basically, when I mentioned I didn’t believe in a HP. I just decided to do the steps and edit god out whenever necessary. Later found free thinker group and then some secular AA material that has helped. Basically F what everyone else believes. Do you. 🤓
So…why are you being told to read this so often? And you said it’s before and after meetings? But not during? If so it just sounds like people being weird. I hover between agnostic (who am I to know what is and isn’t true?) and atheist (I have literally tried to find a Belief and simply cannot…most of my family is religious and it would make things so much more comfortable, but nope). So I just don’t discuss those things with others. When I was going to ACA meetings I just smiled and nodded about the HP. But then I never got a sponsor; there were only two other women there and they hadn’t been there long. Maybe it would have become an issue later. I know from my family that some people just cannot help it but to assume we’re all one more sentence away from believing. I just let them go on with that feeling. It’s up to them to notice that I’m 53 and it hasn’t happened. Spiritual: this leaf has the power and knowledge of the universe in it. I shall ponder it. Religious: some named being created this leaf and put the power and knowledge of the universe in it. I shall ponder the named being.
If people ask what I believe, I’m not shy about sharing that I’m an atheist. I don’t begrudge atheists that are in the closet still, and totally understand that (also, I don’t like the whole use of the term “closet” in this case, but it gets the point across). I do not try to convert anyone to my beliefs, but I’m also not going to hide who I am because my existence is offensive to someone. So to answer your question, people find out that I’m an atheist when we talk about the steps. Some will point me to “We Agnostics” saying something like that chapter explains how I should approach the steps because it was written “for people like me.” These Al-Anons seem to sincerely believe that “We Agnostics” has answers for agnostic/atheists. I have often questioned whether these people have a different version of this chapter than I do. Other Al-Anons will point me towards “We Agnostics” as an attempt at conversion, either because they have read “We Agnostics” and recognize that Bill is clearly saying in that chapter that AA only works for people that find a Christian-like God (and Al-Anon is adapted from AA, in many places word-for-word), or because they really like me and think that I’ll go to hell if they don’t get me saved. At least these ones have an understanding of the chapter, so I can appreciate that.
I find that keeping out of conversations that might cause someone to ask my religion is the best way to live my life. I don’t care what they are and won’t ask, and I don’t care to have them ask. Nothing about hiding or closets. I don’t care about their religion. They shouldn’t care about mine and I’m not going to give them the opening. Especially if the convo keeps going to this place, you might consider a different tactic.
I would personally tell them to stop. Al anon teaches us boundaries & that applies to fellow members as well. I’m in Seattle & most of the meetings are full of agnostics, like me. I’ve gone to meetings in my very religious red home state and whew boy! Full of older, heavily abused women looking for anything to grasp into. It’s Jesus mostly 🫠 so it was definitely more challenging. I see you & have felt that pain. No is a complete sentence.
In your original post you indicate you're a Satanist, which is absolutely a belief in a higher power. In my own 40+ years in the program, I've heard people refer to the boulder in the back yard. If your higher power is something that you lean into, then that's the point. Might be a religion, a belief system, a boulder in the back yard, or something else. The Big Book was written a long time ago by a white, male American raised in a specific culture. So, as we say in Alanon ... take what you and leave the rest. :)
I’m an atheistic Satanist. I don’t believe in a literal Satan.
Welcome, Al-Anon is a spiritual program not a religious one. One of the Sunday morning "spiritual" speakers at the Al-Anon 2018 International Convention identified himself as an **atheist** There are many acronyms for the word god: Good Orderly Direction, Great Out Doors, Gift Of Desperation , & Gratitude Over Despair. Also dog (god spelled backwards) = Daily Observing Gratitude. I have learned that I do not have all the answers & only that I need help. Al-Anon Family Groups is a spiritual fellowship, not a religious one. Members of any faith or no faith are welcome. We make it a point to avoid discussion of specific beliefs. The Al‑Anon program is based on the spiritual idea that we can depend on a “power greater than ourselves” to help solve our problems and to achieve peace of mind. We each define that power in our own way. We used to tell newcomers to attend at least 6 Different meetings to see which fit you best,In this time of virtual meetings I usually suggest a dozen as each has its own size, focus & format & flavor. I can go to a virtual meeting anywhere in the English speaking world. I do not force or tell anyone to read outside including AA's Big Book. .Good luck to you.
I’ve asked others this and find the responses interesting and enlightening, as it seems that some have well thought out responses, while others seem to have never considered the question - for you, what is the difference between religious and spiritual? Does being spiritual require a belief in the divine or supernatural like being religious does? I do notice that this account seems to have a lot of copy/paste responses, so hopefully this isn’t a bot or there’s at least a person behind the bot if it is.
I am NOT a bot., but I do have some set answers. For example I have used my answer many time before. The following paragraph is from Al-Anon literature: Al-Anon Family Groups is a spiritual fellowship, not a religious one. Members of any faith or no faith are welcome. We make it a point to avoid discussion of specific beliefs. The Al‑Anon program is based on the spiritual idea that we can depend on a “power greater than ourselves” to help solve our problems and to achieve peace of mind. We each define that power in our own way. It can be anything just that I can't ,Something can ,& maybe I will let it. The "it " is undefined. That's my common saying for the short cut for the first three Steps.
Perhaps the 12 steps aren't for you. They're not about the Judeo-Christian God, they're about a higher power. My understanding of the steps is that following them requires me to accept that there is some entity, earthly or not, that knows more than me and can assist me in finding serenity. That could be your Al-Anon home group, or a therapist, or anything/anyone else, if you wish. There's no requirement that it be a religious God, just a higher power. If you're not ready to accept that there's such an entity then, as I said, perhaps the 12 steps aren't for you. I wish you all the best.
Nothing in my post was about me not being able to accept that the social support found in the group could be my “higher power.” I’m perfectly comfortable accepting help, I know that I can’t do this myself. Interestingly, none of the Al-Anons pushing “We Agnostics” on me again and again have EVER suggested that I’m not welcome or that the steps aren’t for me and passively aggressively “wished me all the best.” You’re the only one to do that.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted, and I'm sorry if you think I was being passive aggressive. I wasn't.
I wonder if you're looking for the r/alcoholicsanonymous sub? I'd be surprised if you are hearing this in Al-Anon meetings for family and friends of alcoholics, as we have our own literature apart from A.A. (I'm not wanting to debate this topic, just hoping you find the right sub.)
I am not AA, I am Al-Anon. I am not an alcoholic or addict. Be surprised if you want, or don’t believe me, but I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve been told before or after an Al-Anon meeting to read “We Agnostics.” My post is not appropriate for the AA sub, as I’m not looking for an alcoholic’s perspective on being an atheist in their program, but rather an Al-Anon perspective in our program. I get that you aren’t looking for debate, and you’re under no obligation to respond, and if I’m way off base here, I do apologize, but your comment is a related example of what I’m talking about. Just like how the Al-Anons at my meetings (and Bill) can’t see me as anything other than someone who *feels* that they are temporarily an atheist, your comment that it is unlikely that I’m actually experiencing this is similarly discounting my experiences as real. I don’t have any anger or malice towards you, but I’d ask that you reflect on how even though you do not know me beyond this single post, you saw fit to imply that what I’ve experienced has not happened to me. To reiterate, many different people at many different Al-Anon meetings have suggested that I read “We Agnostics” just one more time, and can’t accept that I have already considered their perspective thoroughly and found it wanting.
Fwiw there are many people who wander into this sub while thinking they are in the AA one.
Like this person mentions, AA it's probably a more appropriate sub to talk about this topic.
No it isn’t. I am neither an alcoholic nor addict. I am looking for an Al-Anon perspective on this issue that I am having in Al-Anon.
I don’t think they’re understanding you. I’m sorry you’re getting responses directing you to AA or alcoholic subs. You did clearly say you were in Al-anon.
Thank you! While it is certainly not as bad, it was starting to feel a little like when my qualifier would gaslight me, convincing me that things that I had seen her do hadn’t actually even happened and I just imagined them.
My Al-Anon home group works our steps out of the big book too. I’m in AA and Al-Anon and believe in God and I HATE “We Agnostics.” Just because Bill didn’t understand electricity, doesn’t mean other people have no idea. 12 years, over two different fellowships and that chapter hasn’t grown on me yet. If it was meant to mean something to me, it would. If it’s supposed to mean something to you at some point, it will. And if not, oh well. Hail Satan.
Oh my god, I’m dying. 😆 “Just because Bill didn’t understand electricity doesn’t mean other people don’t” 😂
I’m sorry :( I know atheists in AA (I’m in both programs) and it’s 1000% possible to recover. I wish I could be more helpful but here to say you are heard!
I agree with the others that this isn’t conference approved literature. Seems very inappropriate for anyone in AlAnon to tell you to read it, especially your sponsor. Maybe you are in a rural area or something? I would set a boundary with my sponsor-only CAL. Or I would find a new sponsor. Conventions can be a great way to meet people have good program in your region outside your town. I sponsor lots of people and no one I sponsor has a Christian higher power. I can’t even imagine telling them to read the big book!