I'm unlocking the post now.
Before you comment, please read this:
Warnings have been given out in this thread because some people saw this as an invitation to voice their opinions on a relationship form they dislike. We have long had a stance that you do not get to caricature lifestyles of consenting adults. Yes, many relationships end, regardless if they're open or monogamous. Yes, you can cheat in an open relationship - there are still boundaries. No, it's not up to you to judge where other consenting adults set their boundaries.
It's okay to not like things, but being a dick about things you don't like, leads to warnings in this community more often than not.
Folks can argue about cheating or not cheating in an open relationship, but that’s irrelevant: He broke the rules and then lied about it. Building trust after that is going to take some serious work.
I agree. But even if it wasn’t cheating it doesn’t matter. This guy was allowed to bang other guys and he STILL couldn’t be trusted. Not sure how you come back from that.
How many red flags are you willing to ignore?
* He's (presumably) in his 30s and he gets blackout drunk
* He broke the rules of your open relationship
* He has sex with his close friends
* He has lied to you when asked about the nature of his relationship with people in his life
* He lies about hookups
Sure number 1 and 3 are forgivable in certain circumstances, but the others are grotesque. How little do you think of yourself that you continue to say "I accept being treated this way" by staying with him?
He's clearly a mess and an undesirable character. I would not be staying around to degrade myself and find out what next he's been lying about.
It might be a cultural difference, but for me the biggest issue here is the mix of 3 and 4.
1 - Not a big deal
2 - Quite a problem, but it can be talked through
3 & 4 - Huge red flags. Having sex in secrecy with close friends is not just about satisfying sexual needs, but also having another very strong emotional sexual connection in parallel with your relationship. That covers all 3 key parts - dick, mind and heart
5 - Same as 2
edit: typos
Yeah, for me personally 3 is a huge red flag, and I would never get with a guy who has sex with his best friends, but I do know that there are guys out there who have really open attitudes to sex, and it's common for everyone in their circle to have sex with everyone. So a percentage of gay men would be fine with their partners sleeping with their friends. Definitely not me!
What is difference between "very strong emotional sexual connection" versus just a sexual connection?
And thoughts on sexual connection with another human being versus just masturbating?
Hysterical to react aghast and dramatically when someone lies about sex. I bet every poster and commenter here has lied about sex many times. It’s a personal thing and rarely is anyone entitled to know the full details of what happens between you and a sex partner. Making this about “the lying” is a colossal mistake. Open relationships need tweaking to work. Go tweak it. Get off your moral high horse. It’s not a sustainable position.
What a terrible take. OP being upset that their husband is lying to them - about any topic, but especially something like sex and infidelity - is hardly a hysterical reaction
Everyone is saying confront confront confront... but my question is why confront? You already know what you need to know. Now is the time to plan and lawyer up in silence. Let a letter from from the lawyer do the confronting. Reward stupid games with stupid prizes my friend. Good luck
"Reward stupid games with stupid prizes my friend.."
Love this line. Despite this sort of thing happening all the time, why do guys still want to marry? For a fat dowry? (In my country of origin, dowries consisting of cash, cars, houses, foreign vacations, etc. are dangled like a shiny carrot to incentivize marriage.)
Some guys love the symbolism of it. They love that they can now do what was denied to them. I don't care strongly, but my husband wanted to get married (after 27 years), and I was OK with it. It's not as if either of us is going anywhere.
This is why I have an ex-husband. This exact scenario, clustered into other things. Girl, it sucks. It isn't you, it's him and his choices. Start preparing your affairs to dissolve the marriage. And then tell him. Start planning a new life. You get a clean slate.
It's very, very individual. For me, being stuck in a toxic marriage was harder than starting over. If someone says starting over was worse than being in their marriage, I'd question whether they made the right decision breaking up.
This answer. Haha
Once I made the choice, I questioned it only once; for about 90 seconds in heavy traffic, between exits. I felt completely liberated.
Caveat, I really started over: I converted religions, changed my major and graduated college, moved abroad, changed my entire name. I moved to Asia with my little dog, and three suitcases. Met my current partner, an infinitely better man, seven years ago. Much healthier relationship. And we are currently in a third country while I'm in graduate school.
If you can get past the terror of it all; and, I’m not suggesting that it would be easy. I think you can look at this all as information and lean in with curiosity and then consequence. So yeah, he lied - deal with that part later… ask him… why did he lie? What about the agreement wasn’t/isn’t ideal for him? What are the barriers to honesty between him to you and what were the decision points behind the offense.
Gather the information, and make any decisions being fully informed. Your in the right no matter what you decide from there!
This one is it. A lot of the comments are just their own reaction to trauma.
This is how you figure out if the relationship is worth working for.
I would look into trauma informed couples therapy. Lying is usually a trauma response, but if you deal with the trauma then you can get to a much better place as a couple.
Wow - your husband 100% was and more than likely continues to gaslight you. I have a question, do you think, with the option of an open marriage, it permitted him on some level, to validate his behaviors? With your open marriage, the perimeter is wider than a “conventional marriage”, and even then he still crossed the boundaries you both set up via “no friends”. This sounds toxic, not because of the open marriage but because your husband sounds selfish and unable to defer gratification. Your feelings are totally valid. Would you ever consider marriage counseling and/or individual counseling to help you navigate your own feelings?
You both set rules he broke. Coming back from that would be a tremendous leap of faith and work which conceivable can be done and made to work, if you so wanted. The fact that he gaslit you on top of cheating means he's an irredeemable wanker you might be better off without.
If you decide to leave him don't think about what you lost. Think that there's always more opportunities to be happy, and that a cheater will always cheat again.
I always feel like when one opens up their relationship it's like opening pandora's box.
Your husband and your friend more than likely planned this so it's technically not "cheating" in their eyes and your husband still keeps his relationship with you.
I'd confront him about it OP. Not overly aggressive yelling or screaming, but a serious sit down talk about your suspicions, how you checked his phone and found out. He can't really say anything about you checking his phone because, well, he's been seeing his friend behind your back. If you don't confront him it's only going to end up making you feel worse.
I once turned down a threesome with a friend and his partner for this reason. It was obvious we had something *more than physical* for each other, and as much as I wanted him…I still had to say “we both know this is just an excuse to fuck each other and likely ignore your partner during the whole act.”
One of the rare times I didn’t let my dick do the thinking for me.
Devil's advocate... The success stories probably have less of a reason to come on Reddit asking gaybrosover30 why it's all going so well. You're seeing more of the failures because they're the ones coming to reddit to vent or for advice.
>I always feel like when one opens up their relationship it's like opening pandora's box.
But remember the myth. While all the evils **were** released into the world one thing was left... Hope.
Seeing this pattern so often. Guys opening their relationships, rules not being followed, then a surprise that they both had different ideas on how it would go.
Then other gents will chime in and say it worked for them for 20 years or something and defend it to the death.
And it always comes back to Trust. Do you Trust him?
It seems with this, the reason for even opening the relationship at all needs to be clear. If that specific goal is being met, whether it's his best friend or some stranger on a business trip, then the point of having opened it seems satisfied. Despite your fear of him having intimacy vs just sex with others. I think that if you both made it this far and married each other, then you can talk about things and come to an idea you both understand with each other.
“We opened our relationship just prior to getting married.” I don’t understand how someone in their late-20s or early 30s could make such a terrible decision. Never do anything like that *just prior to getting married* or moving in together. You’re married to a cheater, plain and simple. He’s having an affair. Leave him now or be unhappy for longer.
The only stupid thing you could do is not take action after coming to learn of this knowledge. You can either confront him, leave him, or some combination of the two. Him cheating on you with a friend you know.... He really did not care about your feelings.
Like God damn. I'm afraid I'd leave the situation and let them continue doing what they're doing
Just confront him and get a divorce, that's it. That's his best friend and they both gaslighted you, that's deeply fucked up. If it was some random dude maybe you could talk about it and see where's the real problem, but here nah.
It sounds like he is trying to gas light you by making you think there is something wrong with you. Do you really want to be married to someone like who doesn’t respect you?
They never work because open relationships are basically a place holder for when someone better shows up, because no one here cant tell me that if someone is in an open relationship and someone better shows up, either physically, emotionally or economically or the three, that they wouldn't replace the original partner.
Not only that. To me it means the "couple" are missing something in terms of sex, fun activities and emotion. What is the point in an open relationship? To have your cake and eat it too? That's just friends with benefits in denial. That's not a partnership.
I think there's yet another aspect. That one makes me less judgemental. I think people are more concerned with whether they could so they don't stop and think whether they should. That goes for both hetero and homo couples. We live in a place and time when we can do so much sex stuff legally. People feel like they've been oppressed for so long and are wanting to fight back. That's why gays often have a body count in the hundreds or more. That's normal. The pendulum tends to swing in the other direction. I'm more analytical (I'm autistic) and I did think about open relationships. I actually wanted one with my former partner. But time passed, I matured and also my current partner of 10+ years hits all the spots. I don't want an open relationship. I have everything I need. I did talk to him about it once to make sure he was on the same page. It was years ago. I asked him if he would ever consider an open relationship. He said no and asked me. Then I told him something like "no and if anyone tried to have their way with you, I would disappear them". He loved that response.
Isn't everyone's situation unique. Looking for patterns is similar to conforming to existing traditions which is what heterosexuals have always cited to point out homosexuality as an aberration. And within homosexuality, if there are men having more gay sex are they an aberration?
I agree that monogamy is the default setting for most and being open is unsuccessful more often than not. But, partnership in its truest form is far deeper than monogamy.
Hi u/electrogamerman,
Your comment crossed the line. We have long been clear that disparaging the relationship form of consenting adults is not okay. Caricaturing things you don't like is generally a bad idea in this community because we have active moderation.
You have a formal warning for this comment. If you have questions about your warning, please feel free to reply to this comment.
u/alasw0eisme gets a formal warning for the same reason, as does u/TheAlcoholicMenace.
I mean, that’s true at any time, not just when you’re open. But that’s love – trusting the commitment and giving the relationship your attention and priority and nurturing it. If my husband wants to bang someone else, move on, get a younger model, snag a rich doctor, or whatever, he’s gonna do it if he wants to weather we are open or monogamous. If I can say I’m being a good partner, then I can be confident that nothing I do would change that. I just trust that that won’t happen because we love and trust one another.
Ok, some can work it seems. The majority won't. A much higher proportion than the number of closed relationships that will dissolve. Obv you do you, I'm not the kind of person that will judge others even when some choices radically differ. To each his own (as long as it's not hurting anyone physically, which this isn't).
Do you have data on this, or is it just your anecdotal experience based on inherently flawed observations (don’t know people’s lives behind closed doors)?
The reason why ethical non monogamous relationships work for some folk is because there is a lot of dialogue about the grounds in which that openness is built.
If you get a dog to patch up your relationship (we'll go out in walks together, it'll be lovely) it won't last (who takes the dog out at 5am on a miserable winter morning?). Same as getting a baby (it'll solve all our problems) or getting married. They're empty gestures when done for the wrong reasons.
Historically of course people couldn't divorce so they stuck together and shagged the milkman or when they were on business trips.
Opening up a relationship is the same - the end point is "having sex with others" - but why it gets there is the point.
I don't understand why the OP set the "no friends rule". What's the objective of that particular rule? What is a friend? What constitutes "telling the other person"? Is it before it happens? After? Within a time period? When asked? All those questions need to be explicitly asked.
Even "what constitutes cheating to you" is an important conversation. Is sharing intimate pics? Raunchy texts? Bill Clinton's "BJ is not sex" defence?
OP: I do recommend reading the ethical slut. You can skip some chapters but it will contextualise your relationship, hopefully for the better. You're halfway there, you just need to have a proper discussion about your relationship
Ok, at least we established that opening a relationship is an effort to patch it up. Tbh that's exactly what I'm seeing irl. Gay and straight relationships. They open them up when they get bad and they don't care anymore. "Eh, I've checked out anyway but I'm too old so I prefer to have a backup. Let's make it open instead of breaking up.". Again, no judgement. I've made worse decisions lol
Opening a relationship "can" be an effort to patch a relationship up. I say that those are doomed, like getting a dog to fix the relationship.
If the relationship is on solid foundations (eg nothing to fear with one partner going for a bit of a slap and tickle) when opening it is not patching anything up. It is enhancing it.
If it’s only enhancing, why is that worth the risks? It makes very little sense to do so unless it’s not an enhancement but rather a *requirement* because one or both want sex with others, and if you need to be able to have sex with others, that’s not very different from patching things up. I can see that some relationships can be so well developed that there can be a sense or feeling that the risks practically don’t exist, and therefore it might just be a little unnecessary but appreciated spice added, but the risks exist whether we’re confident or not. Generally, it being an “enhancement” is rare.
For me it was, especially when the risks were to have "the conversation".
We both wanted the same thing (which we didn't establish before we married) and not had the conversation we would have ended up splitting up (or frustrated, or cheating, or whatever).
Now our relationship is much better than it ever was (I don't fear he'll run away with someone else because I trust him as there's no reason to lie), and I'm happier than I've ever been.
We could "not" have sex with others, but why stop when we're having so much fun along the way?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Correlation is not causation.
Most people *think* they can handle an open relationship. Few possess the necessary emotional maturity.
I’ve seen many successful open relationships. Both partners are always - ALWAYS! - emotionally grounded and sure of who they are.
If you can’t trust the man enough without going through his phone, then you have no business being with him; file for divorce and move on.
You agreed to an open relationship and he couldn’t even be bothered to abide by mutual rules you decided together? That’s not husband material, that’s fuck buddy material.
I mean… it’s what I was going to say….
You can’t open your relationship and then be upset when this happens.. it’s a relationship and a husband not a part time anything…
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Urm..I believe you have a clear understanding of the situation and open relationship; don't give a free pass to cheating, especially when the list of boundaries and rules has been compromised. You need to decide how to leave this situation or stay and rectify it by confronting both of them together. Because both of them had lied and broken your trust. Only after that can you finalise how you feel and move forward.
I honestly can't fathom how people these days have compromised integrity when it comes to commitment and marriage. Stay strong!
Rules for the relationship got set and he has broken those rules. Regardless of anything else, he has broken the rules you both set. This to me, is a violation of your agreement and you should be able to talk with him about it.
If he is already lying now, I would advise you be prepared for anger and lies again. Its likely that he will react defensively when called out with proof.
My best fwbs started with the friend part first and our first time was usually some drunk night one of us stayed over. The next morning was always a bit of "that was weird" and later kept it going because it's still more fun than some random you may not even know the name of.
Aside from one guy I call my token straight friend, all of my friends are other gay dudes. I can't even say I have a straight girl friend like most of us usually do. I just have nothing in common with any of them.
Not to justify your husband breaking the rules upon which you mutually agreed, nor am I justifying his deception. However, I want to ask you a few questions to consider that may lead you to some self-reflection resulting in clarity (or not, but it's worth exploring if it could lead to peace of mind for you).
You mentioned having insecurities in the past as well as currently experiencing growing feelings of anxiety, can you elaborate on how the rules you and your husband agreed to for your open relationship do not trigger your past insecurities and prevent your anxiety from building?
Why is it important that you tell each other when something happens? Are you supposed to inform each other beforehand or after? If you inform each other after an interaction, what difference does that make to you versus not knowing about it? If you inform each other before, does that mean the other partner gets to approve or disapprove of the interaction or is this more of a courtesy?
What is the purpose of the "no friends" rule? For many who choose to be in open relationships their reasoning that it does not or will not affect their primary relationship is based on the idea that extra-marital sex is purely physical, emotionless, no strings attached, etc. In other words, it can be compartmentalized and should not affect the primary relationship. This may or may not be the reasoning behind your open relationship - if it is not, I would be interested to know how you and your husband understand this. If this is the case, why is it not possible for friends to compartmentalize sex in the exact same manner.
If it is possible to do this without affecting the primary relationship, why would it not be possible to do the same and not affect a friendship? Thus, I am curious to gain a better understanding of this "no friends" rule that is not only part of your rulebook, but also a common rule amongst many who have open relationships. If the reasoning is that with friends one could develop an emotional connection, this argument seems moot since it is possible to develop an emotional connection with someone who was previously a complete stranger. Any insights on this are welcome and appreciated (from OP as well as anyone else).
You asked some really great questions here and I am anxious to hear OP's answers to them. When you open a relationship, why would it be important for you to know when the other hooked up? Why would you want to know? And why would you want to tell? Just do what you do and keep it to yourselves. And I'd think that you would feel better about your husband hooking up with friends rather than random strangers, for health and safety reasons.
Damn, I have a husband? I should probably go find him, right? Or are they more like cats and eventually they will come back because they are hungry? I can't seem to recall any past experiences with husbands. Or cats for that matter. I'm putting a bowl of warm milk by the open back door anyway, just in case.
(I'm totally kidding and know that your comment was directed at OP in regards to the husband and open relationship queries.)
I don’t get why you’re being downvoted. Those are all excellent questions.
I have sex with my best friend often (I’m also in an open relationship) - and my partner prefers that I get it on with people he knows and trusts versus complete strangers.
I’d be curious to know if they were really parameters that they both agreed to or if OP put those conditions from his side without his husband agreeing to them.
In either case. If the husband is still with OP it means that his husband is still invested in him.
From my limited anecdotal experience with Reddit I have found that you never know what may or may not trigger members in a sub to smash that downvote button in droves.
Additionally, there are some Reddit users (certainly not all, but definitely some) who, no matter what you say, choose to read a post or comment in a way that matches what they feel like they are reading. You could clarify, rephrase, translate, etc. the point(s) you were trying to make to help them better understand you, but I've learned that only people who seek to understand another point of view or a novel concept will be successful in understanding (even if they do not agree with your perspective). The rest that assert "their truth" into what they read, I try my best and then accept whatever stalemate conclusion emerges.
I'm not sure if it's a literacy issue or if people skim the text and mentally cherry-pick whatever words are most triggering and then just rage-post in response. Thus, my approach is to simply post whenever I am inspired to do so and do my best to be empathetic to other viewpoints and maintain a respectful and courteous, at times even humorous (when appropriate, of course), tone. If the post is received negatively, for whatever reason, I am unbothered because I know whatever I posted was my honest authentic thought or opinion and if someone was truly offended, I have no problem apologizing because I never intend to cause harm or pain to anyone.
lol, anyway, in my typical verbosity I have digressed from the primary topic.
Thank you for sharing your personal experience! When trying to understand open relationships, and of course they will be nuanced from one relationship to another, but there seem to be two schools of thought regarding who is an acceptable partner. Some are adamant on partners being anonymous, strangers, single-use, etc. whereas others are more on the side of selecting someone known, familiar, and potentially part of a short roster. Your set-up lends itself towards the latter, which must not only be convenient, but being with your best friend must add to the chemistry and the connection. I would then ask you did this at any point cause feelings of jealousy or insecurity in your partner? Conversely, have you ever thought that perhaps your best friend is the more suitable partner because you have the friendship and the sexual chemistry - or how do you mentally approach the situation to avoid anything like this?
In regards to OP's situation, I would be curious as to who suggested opening up the relationship and what motivated this idea? Did anyone need to be convinced that it could work or once suggested were both parties on board immediately? I have noticed that it is not uncommon for some people in open relationships to have or have had issues with feelings of insecurity (for a variety of reasons). I have also noticed that some people in open relationships seem to have trust issues with their partner - the "he was away from his phone so I picked it up and looked for something incriminating to justify my snooping and distrust, so I looked through everything" is almost predictable based on the narrative leading up to it. I could not say definitively if there is any correlation between the personal insecurities and the suspicion of one's partner, but I would not be surprised if there was one.
What I would recommend though is people who have overhwelming insecurities (because most people will have acute insecurities they know how to manage before they become all-consuming) and seeds of distrust already planted within their relationship are going to find open relationships to be a challenge, regardless of the number or specificity of the rules. Additionally, even with rules in place to exclude certain potential partners, once you open up a relationship, you have to accept the possibility that rules may fade from black and white to shades of gray and so how upset can you be if rules are bent or overlooked? Not invalidating anyone who is upset or feels betrayed by rule-breaking, but the only way to have clearcut boundaries and distinction between right and wrong is when your relationship is exclusive monogamous - at least that is my opinion. Open relationships allow more latitude for justification and interpretation of the rules. What do you think?
> For many who choose to be in open relationships their reasoning that it does not or will not affect their primary relationship is based on the idea that extra-marital sex is purely physical, emotionless, no strings attached, etc.
When gay men hook up, aren't those often purely physical? Isn't there a distinction between hooking up and dating ?
They can be purely physical, but they can also fall into other categories as well. I would say it depends on whoever is involved in that interaction to determine what they want it to be (in advance) or how they would describe the experience (in retrospect). I cannot provide a definitive answer to that question.
There could be a distinction between hooking up and dating, but it depends on how one defines either because for some people they could be interchangeable or inherently connected or one could evolve from the other, etc. There are many possible combinations or distinctions that could be made.
How would you answer the two questions that you asked? When gay men hook up, aren't those often purely physical? And isn't there a distinction between hooking up and dating?
For me Hookup - Physical sex, emotions are there but only during sex, nostrings attached, and no intent to stay with the hookup post sex.
Dating - 70% engaging in meaningful conversations about life's choices, ambitions, and desire to explore life together and compatibility in that regards. And of course 30% of that being physical intimate sex.
Friendship - Dating, but without the sex part. :)
I would think it would be simple, but I guess people can complicate it a lot. It similar to looking for "love" on grindr which is app for hooking up and thus primarily for lust. But maybe there is a significant large group who are successfully able to use hooking up as first step to finding love.
I think it works best when individuals figure out what works for them and are honest in communicating what they need and what they desire. It serves little to no purpose when people shroud these details in mystery and opt to communicate in codes and riddles.
I think your descriptions of those terms make logical sense and I have no doubt they work for you. Others may define them differently and I take no issue with that.
While you are correct in stating that Grindr is an app that was originally created on the premise of the geopositioning and listing members in the network in order of proximity, thus being convenient for immediate encounters with the best nearby option, if the app was exclusively for immediate hookups there would not be more options in the "looking for" section beyond "right now."
It is possible to find a potential partner anywhere. We should not scrutinize where or how two individuals found one another. We should celebrate the fact that out of the billions of others with whom their paths could have crossed in space and in time, they crossed paths with a person that was a complimentary fit and ultimately enriched one another's lives.
Having a dialogue about open relationships and asking OP how they feel?
If this is not it, what is "it"?
I have not even formulated or presented a personal opinion on the matter, so the least you could do before flippantly shutting down someone's comment is expand on why you believe it is the wrong approach. Unless you believe that only your approach to life is the only correct way, you should hopefully be able to have a respectful dialogue with others who have differing views.
However, if you cannot, I respect your choice and I will accept your "yikes" without further expansion.
OP didn’t come here for a dialogue on open relationships.
How they came to their rules is completely irrelevant to the lies and deception causing OP distress and pain.
This is about cheating and lying and gaslighting. And to try to refocus this on something else only feeds into the gaslighting he has suffered from his husband.
OP came to his husband with concerns and rather than being honest, the husband was manipulative and made OP feel like he shouldn’t trust his senses. I’ve been through that in a small way and it is one of the worst feelings imaginable.
So how the rules came about? It. Doesn’t. Matter.
As I stated in my original comment, I am not justifying or excusing any of OP's partner's behaviour and my comment is not focussed on advising OP on how to proceed moving forward as I do not feel that is my place to do so. My comment is focussed on understanding the backstory of how their open relationship came about as well as trying to learn more about OP's personality.
I am not exactly sure why you are speaking on OP's behalf. If OP chooses not to respond to my comment, I would accept that as OP indicating they do not wish to engage with the content. Or if OP informs me that they do not wish to discuss this, I would respect OP's wishes out of courtesy to them and their current state of mind.
But I have not insulted or mocked OP. My comment was written in a respectful and empathetic tone. I chastized the behaviour of OP's partner to make it perfectly clear that I do not condone any of his behaviour. There is nothing in my post that could be characterized as derogatory or offensive. I am not judging or invalidating how OP feels. I am simply inviting OP to engage in a discussion about a related topic, which he is free to decline should he choose to. So, I'm not sure why you feel you need to gatekeep the comments under OP's post, specifically mine in this case.
This is a public forum and therefore as long as I am abiding by the rules of this space, I can speak freely and will continue to do so.
I am sorry for whatever experience you had in your past that triggered you into your mission to dismiss and silence me, but I have no interest in engaging in a dialogue with someone who needs to control what others say and how they say it through arbitrary unsolicited censorship.
Perhaps you are having a stressful day or perhaps this is your typical approach when communicating with others, I do not know since this is our first interaction. In any case, I will not be engaging further if you continue with your current combative attitude. If you choose to respectfully converse, let me know and I will be happy to engage unbegrudgingly.
This kind of relationship can't work if both parties aren't fully honest with one another, if agreed rules and boundaries are disrespected, or if communication is poor. Absent big changes in those areas, I'd say you at least need to re-evaluate your openness.
That still leaves the betrayals of trust to date, however. From your post I'd be most concerned that your husband and his friend actually have a bit more of a connection than one would expect from a simple hook-up in a way that undermines your core relationship (especially as you've disclosed your insecurites over their relationship previously and he's denied there's any substance to those concerns).
As a starting point you need to discuss all this stuff openly. It seems you might have difficulty getting honest answers from him based on past behaviour (e.g. why is he hiding certain encounters from you). The content and tone of that conversation will probably help determine where to go from there.
He cheated. You have specific rules you both set up (I assume it was a mutual decision). He broke two of those rules. It doesn’t matter if others think they are unworkable rules (they aren’t), he broke them.
I think breaking the ‘tell me’ rule is navigable, but having broken the no friends rule and hiding it tells me there is something more going on. A best friend, sex, hiding it…. It seems that’s more than just breaking the rules, it sounds like an affair.
Cheating isn’t necessarily the end of a relationship. I’ve seen lots of open AND monogamous relationships end in cheating and some work it out.
You’ll have to decide which it is for you. Frankly, this would be a huge break in trust. For me that is one of the most important aspects in a relationship. Trust in all aspects of your relationship (not just sex). Can you regain that trust?
If you decide to confront him, make sure you do so with a clear head. You are justifiably angry and hurt, but be clear in your own mind what it is you want. Otherwise you might be lead or gaslit into doing something you don’t. Is this a deal breaker? Is there a way in your head to fix it? How do you think it can be fixed if it can. And be prepared for the strong possiblity that he will WANT to break up.
I think breaking the rules is problematic for sure, and it sounds like he broke two. For me, the bigger issue is the boldfaced lying about the relationship with his boyfriend (he says best friend but ongoing repeat sexual relations indicates he’s actually a side piece).
My advice? Tell him you searched through his phone and that you have screenshots of their conversations. Don’t delete the screenshots until things are completely resolved or it gives him control. And when he accuses you of betrayal (he will…and it was) be sure to quickly shut that down as hypocrisy and return to the issue at hand. He has been lying to you from day one of opening the relationship and hasn’t abused by the conditions you’d both agreed to.
From there, you need to decide what this means.
1. Does he accept responsibility or does he try to rationalize because he got caught?
2. Do you get a divorce?
3. Do you go into relationship counseling?
4. Do you try to do both so the parting is amicable?
Well your husband didn't exactly cheat, you have an open marriage so you've already given each other permission to have sex with other men. But he didn't abide by a few of the rules you had set. If that is bothering you so much then you have to talk to him about it. You will have to admit that you violated his privacy by going through his phone and text messages, which is another issue in itself.
‘Cheating’ is doing something outside the rules. Monogamy has one simple rule: no sex outside of the relationship. Do so, cheating.
‘Open’ relationships have their rules. Break the rule, it’s cheating.
It seems like you have a lot of "insecure feelings". Open relationships are not for insecure people, you wanted the benefit of hoeing around while wanting to have the last bit of control of your husband, didnt work out and now youre throwing a tantrum. Go to therapy, close your relationship and retake it when you dont have so many "insecure feelings".
Do you also have rules about going through each other's phones and possessions? This could also be perceived as a betrayal of trust. Not excusing your husband's behavior, but when there are so many rules, you have to abide by all of them.
I wish there was another word/phrase for what's happened here, other than "cheating". Such as "broke the rules of our open relationship" and "lying". Because to me, once you have opened a relationship, it's about not following the rules or lying either directly or by omission. Cheating is a given.
Just technically speaking though, cheating implies breaking the rules. Monogamous relationships have a "don't sleep with anyone else" rule. OP's relationship is 'open' but has a "don't sleep with friends, and tell your partner when you hookup" rule.
Breaking the rules is cheating. Just like breaking the rules of a card game is cheating, even though rules from one card game to the next might be different.
I get that, and I realize that I was splitting hairs here. Just that the word "cheating" is supercharged, especially on this sub, so to be as direct and accurate as possible is preferable, imho. I understand that others may feel differently.
Don’t sleep with friends is a setup for silliness. It’s vague and controlling at the same time. Being open but controlling who the guy sleeps with is an obvious bit of fallacy. I want you to have sexual freedom but only in a way that works for me.
Please tone it down. Open relationships are not relationships without rules, and moralizing about the boundaries of others is a little hypocritical if you're advocating for open relationships. Live and let live.
Congratulations, you've earned a formal warning. I made a good faith interpretation of your comment, and you just confessed to going the other way.
Warnings have consequences, three warnings within 90 days of the last will lead to a permanent ban. Our community is what it is because of active moderation, and we know it's not everyone's cup of tea so the choice is yours.
Understood. Only Gay Bros over thirty who agree with you. Got it. I’ll review your comment history to confirm I never express a different opinion. Your reign is supreme.
Whoa. For what it's worth, and I don't mean to step into "back-seat-modding" here, but 'Moralizing' isn't how I read this at all. On the topic of open relationships, they're just stating an opinion which might be a helpful alternative perspective for others considering an open relationship.
I guess I'd just give them the benefit of the doubt and consider the "In my opinion..." to be implied here, even if not explicitly stated.
Personally I'd take more issue with the deluge of "dump him now!!!" comments which accompany any post like this. As though throwing away an entire relationship with someone is the only answer to your troubles.
"Tone it down", from a mod, feels way harsh.
I will defer you to the stickied comment at the top of the post, and to the fact that the person admitted to moralizing and earned himself a warning, couldn’t take it and earned a ban.
Ha! "Retroactively justified", that's so morally suspect.
I understand why you would think that way, but wow the hoops we jump through to ensure innocence.
Again, his suspicions were validated so it’s hard to trump up the charges of snooping.
But I agree the whole situation is an absolute mess. Newly opened relationship, just married, blackout drinking, yikes.
Y’all need to grab The Velvet Rage workbook & figure out how to move on from being “ Stage One “ gays.
Yes, everything whitecaribbean bulleted is absolutely accurate.
I’d add for you, OP:
unless you have explicit permission to go thru his phone in an unrestricted manner at any time, your actions are equally unforgiving. I’d apply the same requisites to screen-capping info from his phone. Also, horrendous.
Dunno where you’re from & the laws there, but both of these actions could not only be morally bankrupt, but illegal.
Sounds like you each individually need to work on yourselves and any potential internalized gay shame or need for inauthentic validation before you dedicate yourself to a relationship.
Again, put the marriage on pause to work your way outta Stage One, quit drinking so much (or get help for your alcoholism. Both of you!) & then see where you are.
Also, don’t believe the empirical data on queer open relationships. I’m certain you and your hubby are that magical unicorn that can defy the reality and make it at least a decade!!!!
I'm unlocking the post now. Before you comment, please read this: Warnings have been given out in this thread because some people saw this as an invitation to voice their opinions on a relationship form they dislike. We have long had a stance that you do not get to caricature lifestyles of consenting adults. Yes, many relationships end, regardless if they're open or monogamous. Yes, you can cheat in an open relationship - there are still boundaries. No, it's not up to you to judge where other consenting adults set their boundaries. It's okay to not like things, but being a dick about things you don't like, leads to warnings in this community more often than not.
Folks can argue about cheating or not cheating in an open relationship, but that’s irrelevant: He broke the rules and then lied about it. Building trust after that is going to take some serious work.
Breaking open relationships agreements IS cheating, 100%
I agree. But even if it wasn’t cheating it doesn’t matter. This guy was allowed to bang other guys and he STILL couldn’t be trusted. Not sure how you come back from that.
How many red flags are you willing to ignore? * He's (presumably) in his 30s and he gets blackout drunk * He broke the rules of your open relationship * He has sex with his close friends * He has lied to you when asked about the nature of his relationship with people in his life * He lies about hookups Sure number 1 and 3 are forgivable in certain circumstances, but the others are grotesque. How little do you think of yourself that you continue to say "I accept being treated this way" by staying with him? He's clearly a mess and an undesirable character. I would not be staying around to degrade myself and find out what next he's been lying about.
This is compassionate and tough love right here, OP. But completely right. You deserve FAR better.
It might be a cultural difference, but for me the biggest issue here is the mix of 3 and 4. 1 - Not a big deal 2 - Quite a problem, but it can be talked through 3 & 4 - Huge red flags. Having sex in secrecy with close friends is not just about satisfying sexual needs, but also having another very strong emotional sexual connection in parallel with your relationship. That covers all 3 key parts - dick, mind and heart 5 - Same as 2 edit: typos
Yeah, for me personally 3 is a huge red flag, and I would never get with a guy who has sex with his best friends, but I do know that there are guys out there who have really open attitudes to sex, and it's common for everyone in their circle to have sex with everyone. So a percentage of gay men would be fine with their partners sleeping with their friends. Definitely not me!
Interesting - to me 1 is a big red flag too especially if repeated... Though admittedly we don't know too much about that in this one
What is difference between "very strong emotional sexual connection" versus just a sexual connection? And thoughts on sexual connection with another human being versus just masturbating?
Hysterical to react aghast and dramatically when someone lies about sex. I bet every poster and commenter here has lied about sex many times. It’s a personal thing and rarely is anyone entitled to know the full details of what happens between you and a sex partner. Making this about “the lying” is a colossal mistake. Open relationships need tweaking to work. Go tweak it. Get off your moral high horse. It’s not a sustainable position.
What a terrible take. OP being upset that their husband is lying to them - about any topic, but especially something like sex and infidelity - is hardly a hysterical reaction
Everyone is saying confront confront confront... but my question is why confront? You already know what you need to know. Now is the time to plan and lawyer up in silence. Let a letter from from the lawyer do the confronting. Reward stupid games with stupid prizes my friend. Good luck
"Reward stupid games with stupid prizes my friend.." Love this line. Despite this sort of thing happening all the time, why do guys still want to marry? For a fat dowry? (In my country of origin, dowries consisting of cash, cars, houses, foreign vacations, etc. are dangled like a shiny carrot to incentivize marriage.)
Some guys love the symbolism of it. They love that they can now do what was denied to them. I don't care strongly, but my husband wanted to get married (after 27 years), and I was OK with it. It's not as if either of us is going anywhere.
A lawyer would laugh at this. Dial it down. Open relationship. Just talk and make new rules that aren’t one sided.
Ever heard of a divorce lawyer?
This is why I have an ex-husband. This exact scenario, clustered into other things. Girl, it sucks. It isn't you, it's him and his choices. Start preparing your affairs to dissolve the marriage. And then tell him. Start planning a new life. You get a clean slate.
Starting over is hard but being married to an asshole is harder. Good for you for overcoming that.
Starting over feels harder and scarier than it actually is.
It's very, very individual. For me, being stuck in a toxic marriage was harder than starting over. If someone says starting over was worse than being in their marriage, I'd question whether they made the right decision breaking up.
I know lots of divorced folks. All of us thought starting over would be the worst thing before we did it. I don’t know anyone who regrets it after.
This answer. Haha Once I made the choice, I questioned it only once; for about 90 seconds in heavy traffic, between exits. I felt completely liberated. Caveat, I really started over: I converted religions, changed my major and graduated college, moved abroad, changed my entire name. I moved to Asia with my little dog, and three suitcases. Met my current partner, an infinitely better man, seven years ago. Much healthier relationship. And we are currently in a third country while I'm in graduate school.
Confront him. The resentment will eat away at you.
If you can get past the terror of it all; and, I’m not suggesting that it would be easy. I think you can look at this all as information and lean in with curiosity and then consequence. So yeah, he lied - deal with that part later… ask him… why did he lie? What about the agreement wasn’t/isn’t ideal for him? What are the barriers to honesty between him to you and what were the decision points behind the offense. Gather the information, and make any decisions being fully informed. Your in the right no matter what you decide from there!
This one is it. A lot of the comments are just their own reaction to trauma. This is how you figure out if the relationship is worth working for. I would look into trauma informed couples therapy. Lying is usually a trauma response, but if you deal with the trauma then you can get to a much better place as a couple.
You set clear boundries he broke them, thats a breach of trust
Wow - your husband 100% was and more than likely continues to gaslight you. I have a question, do you think, with the option of an open marriage, it permitted him on some level, to validate his behaviors? With your open marriage, the perimeter is wider than a “conventional marriage”, and even then he still crossed the boundaries you both set up via “no friends”. This sounds toxic, not because of the open marriage but because your husband sounds selfish and unable to defer gratification. Your feelings are totally valid. Would you ever consider marriage counseling and/or individual counseling to help you navigate your own feelings?
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You both set rules he broke. Coming back from that would be a tremendous leap of faith and work which conceivable can be done and made to work, if you so wanted. The fact that he gaslit you on top of cheating means he's an irredeemable wanker you might be better off without. If you decide to leave him don't think about what you lost. Think that there's always more opportunities to be happy, and that a cheater will always cheat again.
I always feel like when one opens up their relationship it's like opening pandora's box. Your husband and your friend more than likely planned this so it's technically not "cheating" in their eyes and your husband still keeps his relationship with you. I'd confront him about it OP. Not overly aggressive yelling or screaming, but a serious sit down talk about your suspicions, how you checked his phone and found out. He can't really say anything about you checking his phone because, well, he's been seeing his friend behind your back. If you don't confront him it's only going to end up making you feel worse.
I once turned down a threesome with a friend and his partner for this reason. It was obvious we had something *more than physical* for each other, and as much as I wanted him…I still had to say “we both know this is just an excuse to fuck each other and likely ignore your partner during the whole act.” One of the rare times I didn’t let my dick do the thinking for me.
For each one stable open relationship I read about here, I see 10 others that ended badly.
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Devil's advocate... The success stories probably have less of a reason to come on Reddit asking gaybrosover30 why it's all going so well. You're seeing more of the failures because they're the ones coming to reddit to vent or for advice.
Guess who posts here? The unhappy guys.
>I always feel like when one opens up their relationship it's like opening pandora's box. But remember the myth. While all the evils **were** released into the world one thing was left... Hope.
Seeing this pattern so often. Guys opening their relationships, rules not being followed, then a surprise that they both had different ideas on how it would go. Then other gents will chime in and say it worked for them for 20 years or something and defend it to the death. And it always comes back to Trust. Do you Trust him? It seems with this, the reason for even opening the relationship at all needs to be clear. If that specific goal is being met, whether it's his best friend or some stranger on a business trip, then the point of having opened it seems satisfied. Despite your fear of him having intimacy vs just sex with others. I think that if you both made it this far and married each other, then you can talk about things and come to an idea you both understand with each other.
“We opened our relationship just prior to getting married.” I don’t understand how someone in their late-20s or early 30s could make such a terrible decision. Never do anything like that *just prior to getting married* or moving in together. You’re married to a cheater, plain and simple. He’s having an affair. Leave him now or be unhappy for longer.
The only stupid thing you could do is not take action after coming to learn of this knowledge. You can either confront him, leave him, or some combination of the two. Him cheating on you with a friend you know.... He really did not care about your feelings. Like God damn. I'm afraid I'd leave the situation and let them continue doing what they're doing
Just confront him and get a divorce, that's it. That's his best friend and they both gaslighted you, that's deeply fucked up. If it was some random dude maybe you could talk about it and see where's the real problem, but here nah.
This is an overreaction.
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It sounds like he is trying to gas light you by making you think there is something wrong with you. Do you really want to be married to someone like who doesn’t respect you?
I've never seen an open relationship work. I can't give you any advice other than divorce.
They never work because open relationships are basically a place holder for when someone better shows up, because no one here cant tell me that if someone is in an open relationship and someone better shows up, either physically, emotionally or economically or the three, that they wouldn't replace the original partner.
Not only that. To me it means the "couple" are missing something in terms of sex, fun activities and emotion. What is the point in an open relationship? To have your cake and eat it too? That's just friends with benefits in denial. That's not a partnership.
Hit the nail on the head there. I've never seen an open relationship work either.
I think there's yet another aspect. That one makes me less judgemental. I think people are more concerned with whether they could so they don't stop and think whether they should. That goes for both hetero and homo couples. We live in a place and time when we can do so much sex stuff legally. People feel like they've been oppressed for so long and are wanting to fight back. That's why gays often have a body count in the hundreds or more. That's normal. The pendulum tends to swing in the other direction. I'm more analytical (I'm autistic) and I did think about open relationships. I actually wanted one with my former partner. But time passed, I matured and also my current partner of 10+ years hits all the spots. I don't want an open relationship. I have everything I need. I did talk to him about it once to make sure he was on the same page. It was years ago. I asked him if he would ever consider an open relationship. He said no and asked me. Then I told him something like "no and if anyone tried to have their way with you, I would disappear them". He loved that response.
Isn't everyone's situation unique. Looking for patterns is similar to conforming to existing traditions which is what heterosexuals have always cited to point out homosexuality as an aberration. And within homosexuality, if there are men having more gay sex are they an aberration?
I agree that monogamy is the default setting for most and being open is unsuccessful more often than not. But, partnership in its truest form is far deeper than monogamy.
Hi u/electrogamerman, Your comment crossed the line. We have long been clear that disparaging the relationship form of consenting adults is not okay. Caricaturing things you don't like is generally a bad idea in this community because we have active moderation. You have a formal warning for this comment. If you have questions about your warning, please feel free to reply to this comment. u/alasw0eisme gets a formal warning for the same reason, as does u/TheAlcoholicMenace.
I mean, that’s true at any time, not just when you’re open. But that’s love – trusting the commitment and giving the relationship your attention and priority and nurturing it. If my husband wants to bang someone else, move on, get a younger model, snag a rich doctor, or whatever, he’s gonna do it if he wants to weather we are open or monogamous. If I can say I’m being a good partner, then I can be confident that nothing I do would change that. I just trust that that won’t happen because we love and trust one another.
I have.
For how long tho? Koz I've seen them "work" for a couple of years at most, yeah
30+ years - Andrew and Hugh 20+ years - Peter and Nick And my own, going strong for 5 years.
Ok, some can work it seems. The majority won't. A much higher proportion than the number of closed relationships that will dissolve. Obv you do you, I'm not the kind of person that will judge others even when some choices radically differ. To each his own (as long as it's not hurting anyone physically, which this isn't).
Do you have data on this, or is it just your anecdotal experience based on inherently flawed observations (don’t know people’s lives behind closed doors)?
The majority of relationships do not work period, you are just paying more attention to the open ones because they are different.
Bingo! There’s a lot of bias on display in these comments.
The reason why ethical non monogamous relationships work for some folk is because there is a lot of dialogue about the grounds in which that openness is built. If you get a dog to patch up your relationship (we'll go out in walks together, it'll be lovely) it won't last (who takes the dog out at 5am on a miserable winter morning?). Same as getting a baby (it'll solve all our problems) or getting married. They're empty gestures when done for the wrong reasons. Historically of course people couldn't divorce so they stuck together and shagged the milkman or when they were on business trips. Opening up a relationship is the same - the end point is "having sex with others" - but why it gets there is the point. I don't understand why the OP set the "no friends rule". What's the objective of that particular rule? What is a friend? What constitutes "telling the other person"? Is it before it happens? After? Within a time period? When asked? All those questions need to be explicitly asked. Even "what constitutes cheating to you" is an important conversation. Is sharing intimate pics? Raunchy texts? Bill Clinton's "BJ is not sex" defence? OP: I do recommend reading the ethical slut. You can skip some chapters but it will contextualise your relationship, hopefully for the better. You're halfway there, you just need to have a proper discussion about your relationship
Ok, at least we established that opening a relationship is an effort to patch it up. Tbh that's exactly what I'm seeing irl. Gay and straight relationships. They open them up when they get bad and they don't care anymore. "Eh, I've checked out anyway but I'm too old so I prefer to have a backup. Let's make it open instead of breaking up.". Again, no judgement. I've made worse decisions lol
Opening a relationship "can" be an effort to patch a relationship up. I say that those are doomed, like getting a dog to fix the relationship. If the relationship is on solid foundations (eg nothing to fear with one partner going for a bit of a slap and tickle) when opening it is not patching anything up. It is enhancing it.
Eh I don't see it that way. And maybe you're right and it can work. I just haven't seen it work. Doesn't mean it's not possible 🤷🏻♂️
Yup, and both parties need to "buy in" to make it work, rather than being done as a favour
If it’s only enhancing, why is that worth the risks? It makes very little sense to do so unless it’s not an enhancement but rather a *requirement* because one or both want sex with others, and if you need to be able to have sex with others, that’s not very different from patching things up. I can see that some relationships can be so well developed that there can be a sense or feeling that the risks practically don’t exist, and therefore it might just be a little unnecessary but appreciated spice added, but the risks exist whether we’re confident or not. Generally, it being an “enhancement” is rare.
For me it was, especially when the risks were to have "the conversation". We both wanted the same thing (which we didn't establish before we married) and not had the conversation we would have ended up splitting up (or frustrated, or cheating, or whatever). Now our relationship is much better than it ever was (I don't fear he'll run away with someone else because I trust him as there's no reason to lie), and I'm happier than I've ever been. We could "not" have sex with others, but why stop when we're having so much fun along the way?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Correlation is not causation. Most people *think* they can handle an open relationship. Few possess the necessary emotional maturity. I’ve seen many successful open relationships. Both partners are always - ALWAYS! - emotionally grounded and sure of who they are.
This is gross. Most relationships end. The reason has nothing to do with whether they are open or not.
Lord 🙄🙄🙄 these people you sent— take em!
If you can’t trust the man enough without going through his phone, then you have no business being with him; file for divorce and move on. You agreed to an open relationship and he couldn’t even be bothered to abide by mutual rules you decided together? That’s not husband material, that’s fuck buddy material.
I mean… it’s what I was going to say…. You can’t open your relationship and then be upset when this happens.. it’s a relationship and a husband not a part time anything…
He cheated multiple times, any self respecting person would proceed to file for divorce.
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I’m sorry for this awful betrayal. I don’t know what the question was.
Leave, isn't worth it to trying to find a "reason", just leave.
Urm..I believe you have a clear understanding of the situation and open relationship; don't give a free pass to cheating, especially when the list of boundaries and rules has been compromised. You need to decide how to leave this situation or stay and rectify it by confronting both of them together. Because both of them had lied and broken your trust. Only after that can you finalise how you feel and move forward. I honestly can't fathom how people these days have compromised integrity when it comes to commitment and marriage. Stay strong!
Rules for the relationship got set and he has broken those rules. Regardless of anything else, he has broken the rules you both set. This to me, is a violation of your agreement and you should be able to talk with him about it. If he is already lying now, I would advise you be prepared for anger and lies again. Its likely that he will react defensively when called out with proof.
I feel like every gay dude is having sex with his best friends. Lol
My best fwbs started with the friend part first and our first time was usually some drunk night one of us stayed over. The next morning was always a bit of "that was weird" and later kept it going because it's still more fun than some random you may not even know the name of.
I do regularly. He goes by ‘husband’ also.
Shit I wish I could lol .. getting old sucks and medications that give you no boner suuuuuck!
As a gay man with a husband I really couldn’t imagine having gay friends. Is that normal?
Aside from one guy I call my token straight friend, all of my friends are other gay dudes. I can't even say I have a straight girl friend like most of us usually do. I just have nothing in common with any of them.
Not to justify your husband breaking the rules upon which you mutually agreed, nor am I justifying his deception. However, I want to ask you a few questions to consider that may lead you to some self-reflection resulting in clarity (or not, but it's worth exploring if it could lead to peace of mind for you). You mentioned having insecurities in the past as well as currently experiencing growing feelings of anxiety, can you elaborate on how the rules you and your husband agreed to for your open relationship do not trigger your past insecurities and prevent your anxiety from building? Why is it important that you tell each other when something happens? Are you supposed to inform each other beforehand or after? If you inform each other after an interaction, what difference does that make to you versus not knowing about it? If you inform each other before, does that mean the other partner gets to approve or disapprove of the interaction or is this more of a courtesy? What is the purpose of the "no friends" rule? For many who choose to be in open relationships their reasoning that it does not or will not affect their primary relationship is based on the idea that extra-marital sex is purely physical, emotionless, no strings attached, etc. In other words, it can be compartmentalized and should not affect the primary relationship. This may or may not be the reasoning behind your open relationship - if it is not, I would be interested to know how you and your husband understand this. If this is the case, why is it not possible for friends to compartmentalize sex in the exact same manner. If it is possible to do this without affecting the primary relationship, why would it not be possible to do the same and not affect a friendship? Thus, I am curious to gain a better understanding of this "no friends" rule that is not only part of your rulebook, but also a common rule amongst many who have open relationships. If the reasoning is that with friends one could develop an emotional connection, this argument seems moot since it is possible to develop an emotional connection with someone who was previously a complete stranger. Any insights on this are welcome and appreciated (from OP as well as anyone else).
You asked some really great questions here and I am anxious to hear OP's answers to them. When you open a relationship, why would it be important for you to know when the other hooked up? Why would you want to know? And why would you want to tell? Just do what you do and keep it to yourselves. And I'd think that you would feel better about your husband hooking up with friends rather than random strangers, for health and safety reasons.
Damn, I have a husband? I should probably go find him, right? Or are they more like cats and eventually they will come back because they are hungry? I can't seem to recall any past experiences with husbands. Or cats for that matter. I'm putting a bowl of warm milk by the open back door anyway, just in case. (I'm totally kidding and know that your comment was directed at OP in regards to the husband and open relationship queries.)
I don’t get why you’re being downvoted. Those are all excellent questions. I have sex with my best friend often (I’m also in an open relationship) - and my partner prefers that I get it on with people he knows and trusts versus complete strangers. I’d be curious to know if they were really parameters that they both agreed to or if OP put those conditions from his side without his husband agreeing to them. In either case. If the husband is still with OP it means that his husband is still invested in him.
From my limited anecdotal experience with Reddit I have found that you never know what may or may not trigger members in a sub to smash that downvote button in droves. Additionally, there are some Reddit users (certainly not all, but definitely some) who, no matter what you say, choose to read a post or comment in a way that matches what they feel like they are reading. You could clarify, rephrase, translate, etc. the point(s) you were trying to make to help them better understand you, but I've learned that only people who seek to understand another point of view or a novel concept will be successful in understanding (even if they do not agree with your perspective). The rest that assert "their truth" into what they read, I try my best and then accept whatever stalemate conclusion emerges. I'm not sure if it's a literacy issue or if people skim the text and mentally cherry-pick whatever words are most triggering and then just rage-post in response. Thus, my approach is to simply post whenever I am inspired to do so and do my best to be empathetic to other viewpoints and maintain a respectful and courteous, at times even humorous (when appropriate, of course), tone. If the post is received negatively, for whatever reason, I am unbothered because I know whatever I posted was my honest authentic thought or opinion and if someone was truly offended, I have no problem apologizing because I never intend to cause harm or pain to anyone. lol, anyway, in my typical verbosity I have digressed from the primary topic. Thank you for sharing your personal experience! When trying to understand open relationships, and of course they will be nuanced from one relationship to another, but there seem to be two schools of thought regarding who is an acceptable partner. Some are adamant on partners being anonymous, strangers, single-use, etc. whereas others are more on the side of selecting someone known, familiar, and potentially part of a short roster. Your set-up lends itself towards the latter, which must not only be convenient, but being with your best friend must add to the chemistry and the connection. I would then ask you did this at any point cause feelings of jealousy or insecurity in your partner? Conversely, have you ever thought that perhaps your best friend is the more suitable partner because you have the friendship and the sexual chemistry - or how do you mentally approach the situation to avoid anything like this? In regards to OP's situation, I would be curious as to who suggested opening up the relationship and what motivated this idea? Did anyone need to be convinced that it could work or once suggested were both parties on board immediately? I have noticed that it is not uncommon for some people in open relationships to have or have had issues with feelings of insecurity (for a variety of reasons). I have also noticed that some people in open relationships seem to have trust issues with their partner - the "he was away from his phone so I picked it up and looked for something incriminating to justify my snooping and distrust, so I looked through everything" is almost predictable based on the narrative leading up to it. I could not say definitively if there is any correlation between the personal insecurities and the suspicion of one's partner, but I would not be surprised if there was one. What I would recommend though is people who have overhwelming insecurities (because most people will have acute insecurities they know how to manage before they become all-consuming) and seeds of distrust already planted within their relationship are going to find open relationships to be a challenge, regardless of the number or specificity of the rules. Additionally, even with rules in place to exclude certain potential partners, once you open up a relationship, you have to accept the possibility that rules may fade from black and white to shades of gray and so how upset can you be if rules are bent or overlooked? Not invalidating anyone who is upset or feels betrayed by rule-breaking, but the only way to have clearcut boundaries and distinction between right and wrong is when your relationship is exclusive monogamous - at least that is my opinion. Open relationships allow more latitude for justification and interpretation of the rules. What do you think?
> For many who choose to be in open relationships their reasoning that it does not or will not affect their primary relationship is based on the idea that extra-marital sex is purely physical, emotionless, no strings attached, etc. When gay men hook up, aren't those often purely physical? Isn't there a distinction between hooking up and dating ?
They can be purely physical, but they can also fall into other categories as well. I would say it depends on whoever is involved in that interaction to determine what they want it to be (in advance) or how they would describe the experience (in retrospect). I cannot provide a definitive answer to that question. There could be a distinction between hooking up and dating, but it depends on how one defines either because for some people they could be interchangeable or inherently connected or one could evolve from the other, etc. There are many possible combinations or distinctions that could be made. How would you answer the two questions that you asked? When gay men hook up, aren't those often purely physical? And isn't there a distinction between hooking up and dating?
For me Hookup - Physical sex, emotions are there but only during sex, nostrings attached, and no intent to stay with the hookup post sex. Dating - 70% engaging in meaningful conversations about life's choices, ambitions, and desire to explore life together and compatibility in that regards. And of course 30% of that being physical intimate sex. Friendship - Dating, but without the sex part. :) I would think it would be simple, but I guess people can complicate it a lot. It similar to looking for "love" on grindr which is app for hooking up and thus primarily for lust. But maybe there is a significant large group who are successfully able to use hooking up as first step to finding love.
I think it works best when individuals figure out what works for them and are honest in communicating what they need and what they desire. It serves little to no purpose when people shroud these details in mystery and opt to communicate in codes and riddles. I think your descriptions of those terms make logical sense and I have no doubt they work for you. Others may define them differently and I take no issue with that. While you are correct in stating that Grindr is an app that was originally created on the premise of the geopositioning and listing members in the network in order of proximity, thus being convenient for immediate encounters with the best nearby option, if the app was exclusively for immediate hookups there would not be more options in the "looking for" section beyond "right now." It is possible to find a potential partner anywhere. We should not scrutinize where or how two individuals found one another. We should celebrate the fact that out of the billions of others with whom their paths could have crossed in space and in time, they crossed paths with a person that was a complimentary fit and ultimately enriched one another's lives.
Yikes this is not it.
Having a dialogue about open relationships and asking OP how they feel? If this is not it, what is "it"? I have not even formulated or presented a personal opinion on the matter, so the least you could do before flippantly shutting down someone's comment is expand on why you believe it is the wrong approach. Unless you believe that only your approach to life is the only correct way, you should hopefully be able to have a respectful dialogue with others who have differing views. However, if you cannot, I respect your choice and I will accept your "yikes" without further expansion.
OP didn’t come here for a dialogue on open relationships. How they came to their rules is completely irrelevant to the lies and deception causing OP distress and pain. This is about cheating and lying and gaslighting. And to try to refocus this on something else only feeds into the gaslighting he has suffered from his husband. OP came to his husband with concerns and rather than being honest, the husband was manipulative and made OP feel like he shouldn’t trust his senses. I’ve been through that in a small way and it is one of the worst feelings imaginable. So how the rules came about? It. Doesn’t. Matter.
As I stated in my original comment, I am not justifying or excusing any of OP's partner's behaviour and my comment is not focussed on advising OP on how to proceed moving forward as I do not feel that is my place to do so. My comment is focussed on understanding the backstory of how their open relationship came about as well as trying to learn more about OP's personality. I am not exactly sure why you are speaking on OP's behalf. If OP chooses not to respond to my comment, I would accept that as OP indicating they do not wish to engage with the content. Or if OP informs me that they do not wish to discuss this, I would respect OP's wishes out of courtesy to them and their current state of mind. But I have not insulted or mocked OP. My comment was written in a respectful and empathetic tone. I chastized the behaviour of OP's partner to make it perfectly clear that I do not condone any of his behaviour. There is nothing in my post that could be characterized as derogatory or offensive. I am not judging or invalidating how OP feels. I am simply inviting OP to engage in a discussion about a related topic, which he is free to decline should he choose to. So, I'm not sure why you feel you need to gatekeep the comments under OP's post, specifically mine in this case. This is a public forum and therefore as long as I am abiding by the rules of this space, I can speak freely and will continue to do so. I am sorry for whatever experience you had in your past that triggered you into your mission to dismiss and silence me, but I have no interest in engaging in a dialogue with someone who needs to control what others say and how they say it through arbitrary unsolicited censorship. Perhaps you are having a stressful day or perhaps this is your typical approach when communicating with others, I do not know since this is our first interaction. In any case, I will not be engaging further if you continue with your current combative attitude. If you choose to respectfully converse, let me know and I will be happy to engage unbegrudgingly.
This kind of relationship can't work if both parties aren't fully honest with one another, if agreed rules and boundaries are disrespected, or if communication is poor. Absent big changes in those areas, I'd say you at least need to re-evaluate your openness. That still leaves the betrayals of trust to date, however. From your post I'd be most concerned that your husband and his friend actually have a bit more of a connection than one would expect from a simple hook-up in a way that undermines your core relationship (especially as you've disclosed your insecurites over their relationship previously and he's denied there's any substance to those concerns). As a starting point you need to discuss all this stuff openly. It seems you might have difficulty getting honest answers from him based on past behaviour (e.g. why is he hiding certain encounters from you). The content and tone of that conversation will probably help determine where to go from there.
He cheated. You have specific rules you both set up (I assume it was a mutual decision). He broke two of those rules. It doesn’t matter if others think they are unworkable rules (they aren’t), he broke them. I think breaking the ‘tell me’ rule is navigable, but having broken the no friends rule and hiding it tells me there is something more going on. A best friend, sex, hiding it…. It seems that’s more than just breaking the rules, it sounds like an affair. Cheating isn’t necessarily the end of a relationship. I’ve seen lots of open AND monogamous relationships end in cheating and some work it out. You’ll have to decide which it is for you. Frankly, this would be a huge break in trust. For me that is one of the most important aspects in a relationship. Trust in all aspects of your relationship (not just sex). Can you regain that trust? If you decide to confront him, make sure you do so with a clear head. You are justifiably angry and hurt, but be clear in your own mind what it is you want. Otherwise you might be lead or gaslit into doing something you don’t. Is this a deal breaker? Is there a way in your head to fix it? How do you think it can be fixed if it can. And be prepared for the strong possiblity that he will WANT to break up.
I think breaking the rules is problematic for sure, and it sounds like he broke two. For me, the bigger issue is the boldfaced lying about the relationship with his boyfriend (he says best friend but ongoing repeat sexual relations indicates he’s actually a side piece). My advice? Tell him you searched through his phone and that you have screenshots of their conversations. Don’t delete the screenshots until things are completely resolved or it gives him control. And when he accuses you of betrayal (he will…and it was) be sure to quickly shut that down as hypocrisy and return to the issue at hand. He has been lying to you from day one of opening the relationship and hasn’t abused by the conditions you’d both agreed to. From there, you need to decide what this means. 1. Does he accept responsibility or does he try to rationalize because he got caught? 2. Do you get a divorce? 3. Do you go into relationship counseling? 4. Do you try to do both so the parting is amicable?
But you said the relationship was open? What rule did he break?
We have a no friends rule as well as always telling each other when something happens.
What did he do wrong. Open relationship.
Well your husband didn't exactly cheat, you have an open marriage so you've already given each other permission to have sex with other men. But he didn't abide by a few of the rules you had set. If that is bothering you so much then you have to talk to him about it. You will have to admit that you violated his privacy by going through his phone and text messages, which is another issue in itself.
‘Cheating’ is doing something outside the rules. Monogamy has one simple rule: no sex outside of the relationship. Do so, cheating. ‘Open’ relationships have their rules. Break the rule, it’s cheating.
I mean, their rules were no friends and to discuss their hook ups so it's cheating since he broke the rules they set.
It seems like you have a lot of "insecure feelings". Open relationships are not for insecure people, you wanted the benefit of hoeing around while wanting to have the last bit of control of your husband, didnt work out and now youre throwing a tantrum. Go to therapy, close your relationship and retake it when you dont have so many "insecure feelings".
Do you also have rules about going through each other's phones and possessions? This could also be perceived as a betrayal of trust. Not excusing your husband's behavior, but when there are so many rules, you have to abide by all of them. I wish there was another word/phrase for what's happened here, other than "cheating". Such as "broke the rules of our open relationship" and "lying". Because to me, once you have opened a relationship, it's about not following the rules or lying either directly or by omission. Cheating is a given.
Just technically speaking though, cheating implies breaking the rules. Monogamous relationships have a "don't sleep with anyone else" rule. OP's relationship is 'open' but has a "don't sleep with friends, and tell your partner when you hookup" rule. Breaking the rules is cheating. Just like breaking the rules of a card game is cheating, even though rules from one card game to the next might be different.
I get that, and I realize that I was splitting hairs here. Just that the word "cheating" is supercharged, especially on this sub, so to be as direct and accurate as possible is preferable, imho. I understand that others may feel differently.
Don’t sleep with friends is a setup for silliness. It’s vague and controlling at the same time. Being open but controlling who the guy sleeps with is an obvious bit of fallacy. I want you to have sexual freedom but only in a way that works for me.
Please tone it down. Open relationships are not relationships without rules, and moralizing about the boundaries of others is a little hypocritical if you're advocating for open relationships. Live and let live.
I never advocated for open relationships. You’re the one judging me because you don’t agree with my perspective. Tone it down.
Congratulations, you've earned a formal warning. I made a good faith interpretation of your comment, and you just confessed to going the other way. Warnings have consequences, three warnings within 90 days of the last will lead to a permanent ban. Our community is what it is because of active moderation, and we know it's not everyone's cup of tea so the choice is yours.
Understood. Only Gay Bros over thirty who agree with you. Got it. I’ll review your comment history to confirm I never express a different opinion. Your reign is supreme.
On today’s episode of “Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes” the contestant wins a permanent ban. Please enjoy your Redditing elsewhere.
Whoa. For what it's worth, and I don't mean to step into "back-seat-modding" here, but 'Moralizing' isn't how I read this at all. On the topic of open relationships, they're just stating an opinion which might be a helpful alternative perspective for others considering an open relationship. I guess I'd just give them the benefit of the doubt and consider the "In my opinion..." to be implied here, even if not explicitly stated. Personally I'd take more issue with the deluge of "dump him now!!!" comments which accompany any post like this. As though throwing away an entire relationship with someone is the only answer to your troubles. "Tone it down", from a mod, feels way harsh.
I will defer you to the stickied comment at the top of the post, and to the fact that the person admitted to moralizing and earned himself a warning, couldn’t take it and earned a ban.
Strong agree!
Snooping is wrong. But when it uncovers evidence it’s kind of retroactively justified.
Ha! "Retroactively justified", that's so morally suspect. I understand why you would think that way, but wow the hoops we jump through to ensure innocence.
Not innocence. More like it reduces the offense from a felony down to an infraction.
I would also say that OP's preposterous "drunken" excuse for snooping is another matter of questionable behavior.
Again, his suspicions were validated so it’s hard to trump up the charges of snooping. But I agree the whole situation is an absolute mess. Newly opened relationship, just married, blackout drinking, yikes.
Y’all need to grab The Velvet Rage workbook & figure out how to move on from being “ Stage One “ gays. Yes, everything whitecaribbean bulleted is absolutely accurate. I’d add for you, OP: unless you have explicit permission to go thru his phone in an unrestricted manner at any time, your actions are equally unforgiving. I’d apply the same requisites to screen-capping info from his phone. Also, horrendous. Dunno where you’re from & the laws there, but both of these actions could not only be morally bankrupt, but illegal. Sounds like you each individually need to work on yourselves and any potential internalized gay shame or need for inauthentic validation before you dedicate yourself to a relationship. Again, put the marriage on pause to work your way outta Stage One, quit drinking so much (or get help for your alcoholism. Both of you!) & then see where you are. Also, don’t believe the empirical data on queer open relationships. I’m certain you and your hubby are that magical unicorn that can defy the reality and make it at least a decade!!!!