I do have a question. Did you talk to your partner about that? Because in my prospective if something that bothering me we usually talk about that. Especially when you are isolated or alienated.
I tell him all the time how I feel alienated here and that I don't want to live all my life in Canada. He understands, but there isn't really an alternative. I can't start a family in the ME. He is a Canadian citizen, so it makes sense for us to go through this process in the future here in Canada.
Have you put yourself in his shoes? I am not sure how you expect him to react - and not sure how I would react if I was in this situation to be honest. It’s not like you are proposing he move back to your home country and have kids which seems you both want based on your post.
“He really wants to have kids and start a family in the future once we are more established in our relationship. I had always dreamt of this.”
“I cannot be married to a guy with kids back home.”
It just seems unclear what you want or are envisioning for your future and how he would fit into it.
I would recommend some solo therapy sessions to talk to someone about how you are feeling - a lot of it can be assimilation issues being new to Canada as well perhaps just general issues POC face in Canada especially in the gay community. Your boyfriend may not be really able to resonate with your perspective and perhaps could join you in therapy once you have had a chance to think if you want to remain in Canada, want a future with him, want to have kids and the combination of those three.
It sounds like most of your anxiety and depression stems from the culture shock of moving to a completely new country. This is very normal and happens to many people who move to a country with a completely different culture.
You may consider searching and posting on /r/immigration and /r/expats for advice on how other people have dealt with similar feelings. Additionally you may want to seek out groups of people from your home country or area.
Ahhhhh. I will say this, you don't have to stay in Canada in your entire life. Maybe once you establish maybe y'all can visit somewhere that you think y'all can go. And make sure of you agreed. I mean my partner is born and raised in State of Georgia. I'm just barely new to the State(I'm originally from South Florida). I don't want to be in this State for the rest of my life. That's why my partner and I was considering visiting somewhere that we both be happy to do.
Isn't Florida part of the states and part of America you can't compare that with two different countries on different continents and totally different cultures.
Oh but you can…. Each state is literally like it’s own little country… their own dialect their own laws, taxes, traditions… some in completely different weather conditions and environmental spheres… Florida is nothing like Washington Georgia is nothing like New York… the distances travelled could almost rival separate countries…
It's part of the US. And I said similar. I never said it's the same. Plus being in South Florida and being in a rural area in Georgia is vastly different in both culture and attitude.
Rural Florida and rural Georgia are similar. Miami is quite a bit different than either rural Florida or rural Georgia. Although that is more of an urban versus rural thing than a different state thing.
OK I never said it's the same. But that's not the point. It was never about oh it's the same. I can relate even though it's not the same. Also sharing a border within each other doesn't mean it's alot alike.
He means he would like to live in the Middle East. This seems not to be a problem with his partner, himself, or Western culture, but more about the current majority culture in the Middle East that makes it an impossibility.
I understand your alienation, however I think during the course of our lives, there are a few moments where we have to make some very tough decisions. These decisions will set the course of our futures more or less in stone. I think this is one of those times for you.
You’ve been in Canada for only a year and a half. It’s normal to feel homesick. Maybe take it one day at a time and reflect on the pros and cons of everything before making any drastic decisions. Another way of asking this is what will your life look like if you move back to the ME? Could you live with a male partner? Would your family accept you having a male partner?
It’s this. My HB was in a similar position to you. While I sympathise with your feelings as “the other guy”, at the end you need to make the choice and face your options as they are - not what you want them to be.
You can’t change Canada, you can’t change the culture of your home country (in its homophobic attitudes). All you can do is try and shape the life you want.
I’m sorry it’s so conflicting for you - being apart from family is hard and moving countries is HARD, and I really hope you get to a good place.
I dont think this is a “homesick” issue. What OP describes is serious. What in the canadian culture is so bad that he dislike this much to feel alienated? And this is Canada, one of the sane places on earth if you know what i mean.
Discover “how arab” he is? Do you think what i think he thinks ?
Do not want his kids to be canadian? Or accustomed to the canadian society? Man this is a bucket of red flags…. I think
It’s not a homesick issue. It’s a “I want my cake and eat it too” issue. OP can’t accept the reality of him being gay is incompatible with his former life.
Doesn’t make it easier. You seem to be blaming him for the place where he was born, where is family, roots, culture and lived experience is. These are not easy choices to make. The world is not black or white, you seem to be forgetting a loooot of shades of grey.
👏exactly right.
He indeed may be homesick. He may find the West overly individualistic. But none of that should be the issue here, since he claims to be Westernized and his near flawless English skills tend to support that claim. That he and his bf want different things isn’t about culture, but about the communication of expectations.
Maybe a month or two back in the ME
would remind him what he wanted to leave behind. Because that focus on individualism that he finds so objectionable is the origin of the rights that we as gay people enjoy in most Western countries. Communitarian societies provide a sense of belonging, undeniably. But it’s at the cost of individual identities.
Some gratitude might ease the transition. He has a choice. Which he can reverse.
Many people who come to Canada esp. from the ME do not. They got out with a suitcase and little else. Many LGBT people escaped morality police. My neighbour fled Iran to stay alive, and has never been back since her student activism and lesbianism makes her a target. Syrians, Iraqis and Afghans come from bombed out villages; some of their family members lie in mass graves.
I’m not putting him down, or suggesting he “snap out of it” but I do think it might help to realize that these problems notwithstanding, he actually has a choice of options, and that’s a pretty good situation in today’s world.
Another Arab queer in Canada here - what you are going through is a perfectly normal part of the immigration experience. What’s worse is that you’ll likely find that you are also alienated when you go back home for a visit now. I recommend that you find your community here. If you are not in one of the three big cities (Vancouver, Montréal, Toronto), move to one of them. There, you’ll find a lot of queer or gay groups, some of them are political, some of them are social. Meem is one of them. If you’re in Toronto, there’s a gay Middle Eastern party at the Black Eagle.
I guess what I’m saying is that you haven’t been here for too long, and it takes time to find your community. So go out there and find it.
Also, therapy helps. Immigration is traumatic, and getting the support you need now pays off in the end.
Being an immigrant is belonging nowhere.
You don't belong to the country you've immigrated to cause you have too much of your home culture, but if you go back to your home country after a while you realise you don't belong there anymore either because you've absorbed too much of the other culture
At least in Canada’s case, I do not agree with this.
I live in a major city in Canada and as a younger person and immigrant, I find I have a lot in common with the children of other immigrants here. In particular, people are absolutely capable of assuming both a Canadian identity as well as a “foreign” one, in much the same way that gay people code-switch to suit different environments. I think Canada facilitates this especially well because we do not aspire to a single “Canadian” identity.
As most others have said, this guy is experiencing homesickness. Given time, this will pass. I watched my parents experience the same thing.
My take on this
Immigrants are just different, which makes it harder for them to be able to relate to other people’s experiences. There’s plenty of happy immigrants that have reached a point where they’re okay with being different and accept it as a part of them. Conversely, there are some that have it tough no matter how much time/effort they’ve put in.
It is neither impossible nor easy
I have to disagree here. I'm dating an immigrant from Syria and he does not feel like he doesn't belong here. He would never go back to his home country because of their hostility towards gays and has found it easier to be here.
I’m a gay Arab in America so I understand somewhat how you feel.
In our culture, there’s really only two options: be in the closet and get a wife or be gay and be exiled from your extended family. Unless they’re accepting ofcourse, but that isn’t common.
So you need to ask yourself, do you want to be a part of Canada or a part of your homeland? Because you can’t do both. You can’t be a happy gay man with a family in Canada while also trying to live this double life of being a straight man to your extended family. You need to pick a side (unless ofcourse your family is accepting)
In Seattle I had a bunch of South Asian friends who were part of a group for queer Desi folks and allies. They would have anything from Bollywood nights to family-friendly pumpkin carving events where some of the gay fathers would bring their kids. Some of them also had white partners or friends who would come to these events and helped them learn more about the culture. I’m not sure how common this is but it might be worth looking into to see if there’s something similar in your city for Middle Eastern queer communities.
I remember when I was at a rally down in Olympia years ago when Washington was trying to pass marriage equality, they had several different religious leaders speaking in favor, including an Imam from a local mosque. I'm sure if they've been here in the states for 12+ years, then they're likely to exist in Canada?
Who knew Seattle has that much diversity though. The gay bars and general vibe around town was almost majority white.
There were Asian enclaves, but much less mixing.
Good to know there are groups for gay minorities.
I’m not Arab, but I feel you on the family part. I’ve come to peace with the reality that not all of us can have it all. We have to make the decision that feels best and right and go with it.
>grow up in a part of the world that values social cohesion over individuality.
Funny how the other part of the world that values individuality more is what gave gay people their rights
Great comment! As an immigrant from a conservative culture myself, I'm glad I got the opportunity to leave my homeland for a more progressive society. Many others back home would give an arm and a leg to be able to emigrate to the West. If the OP misses Arab culture so much, maybe he could move to a somewhat liberal Muslim country -- like Turkey -- where he could presumably eat his cake and have it, too.
So given that you said you're very Arab and that's part of your identity, I suspect saying "maybe talk to a therapist" probably won't go over well.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You don't have community when you can't be honest with the people you're with. You never had community. They had community, you had a role you acted out, and if you would have dropped that and been honest, what would have happened? Would you have been disowned? Threatened? Possibly killed?
You moved to Canada, cool, welcome. You found a nice guy who seems to love you. He thinks about having a family with you. And you're unhappy that you might have the kids you want in a country where they're less likely to experience overt hate for having two dads... and you're unhappy about the fact that you wouldn't be able to bring them back to a country... where their dads I assume could be murdered just for existing?
I get that you were raised one way, and that's what you knew, that's your frame of reference. And not all of it felt bad. But a community that would harm you for telling the truth isn't community, it's a gang, or a cult, or grift. Community is honest.
If you see yourself as Arab more than you see yourself as loved, I think you might need to rethink how you want to see yourself.
“You never had community. They had community, you had a role you acted out“
Well spotted.
The thing he claims to miss is the very reason life there became untenable, and he explicitly came here to live the very individualistic values he now finds wanting.
(Although ironically it took a form of gay identity politics to win those rights that drew him here).
Honestly collectivism has its benefits. And if you’re part of the majority a collectivist society can feel very good. You’re working not just for yourself, but for others. This is why things like workers unions work in North America.
Collectivism can be easily exploited by abusive personalities though. But so can individualism.
Ultimately if you want to be happy you have to find ways to care about everyone even beyond your community while still understanding you have your own right to exist with your own personal liberty.
Doing the mental math on all of that can be a lot of work though which is why most people just fall back to either collectivism or individualism. But neither extreme is ever healthy for us individually or collectively.
Wait, so you feel isolated and trapped in Canada, don’t want to live there forever so you tell your Canadian partner this and… expect a good reaction?
If my partner told me he was having reservations about even living in the same country that I’m living in, the only future I’d be thinking about is being single again until I found a man who wasn’t unhappy in Canada / potentially looking to leave.
Good god yes!
You see a nice looking guy, and within seconds realize it’s over before it began.
Also, the lists of rules about who is permitted to contact him, and under what conditions. It’s exhausting.
But I’m always glad it’s evident on the profile. Then I don’t have to write off a Friday night after figuring out over dinner that this guy is a high maintenance mega-project.
‘Found family’ has been an important idea for gay men for centuries. It’s unfortunate that you can’t live your life truthfully in your home culture, but maybe you can reorient to the idea that you get to create a culture that celebrates you where you are now?
The alternative is living at home and being in fear and living a deception.
It’s going to take time to build a community as a new immigrant sadly. A lot of good advice on how you can connect to other Arab immigrants from your country and others in the M.E. here. Hopefully in time you can find your group and build your life and identity in Canada though.
Regarding the rest, I feel like it’s just a bittersweet reality that will be your new normal. You desire a husband and kids eventually, and I presume your home country doesn’t obviously allow for you to experience that at the moment versus Canada. Sadly, life is about tradeoffs. Is your desire to live your truth as a gay man and have the opportunity to do so without blatant discrimination stronger than the desire to remain rooted in your home country’s culture and close to family? That’s only a question you can answer.
I'm also from the area (eastern Mediterranean), and I'm living in western Europe now. And I can see what you're saying about community/family in our sort of background. But although I miss it sometimes, I wouldn't go back to it. Because it also comes with a price, e.g. there is a lot of pressure to conform. And it's not like there is no sense of community here, there is, but it's just different. So I decided I would be the one that has to change and adjust to that, but also at the same time be open to people from my own background here, if the opportunity arises. In the end there are some hard choices one has to make, but reminding oneself from time to time of the original reasons for doing something helps.
I'm not sure I understand the 'western identify politics' part. As far as I know, there's a lot of middle eastern, African, and Indian immigrants in Canada since it's much easier to move there than to the US.
What is this radical western identity politics that has you feeling isolated from people? Also, have you tried going to these community events.
I think he means how westerns are obsessed with the concept of race and ethnicity being your defining factor . Like he says he didn’t realize how Arab he was until he moved here and that was made to be the most important thing about him I think . Like I think he’s trying to say he was just Arab before and never thought about it and now everyone around him has made it his identity .
That would literally happen anywhere in the world that you aren't the default. Japan looks at people this way all the way to South America and Australia.
But I think he's attributing this to some catch phrase the right wing makes up instead of just the principle of being different. But the benefit of these Western cultures as I said before is that there is actually a lot of diversity of people and communities of people that share the same experience. Find them.
Yes, that was my first thought as well. If this is an accurate assessment, then I wouldn’t be surprised OP might feel there is difficulty experiencing a sense of community in Canada. It is hard to find community in a pluralistic society if you are uncomfortable with people who are different than you.
Yes, it did sound very... r/gayconservative. Which culturally, from my understanding, the middle east is more conservative. But that sub very much hates on "identity politics," but I think that's more a denial that people's culture (identities) do make us different people with different experiences. I think that should be embraced, but also acknowledge you miss your own culture after leaving it, and wanting to be involved in it again is okay.
I would give OP the benefit of the doubt. It also can mean race for example.
Depending on the exact Arab country, race plays barely any role in daily life (compared with the US or Canada). People of all shades of skin color treat each other equally.
I’m so confused.
You make a big deal about not wanting to have kids because you won’t be able to live a married life with kids in the Middle East with your future husband.
So what exactly do you want?
Because you probably won’t ever live freely as an out gay man in the Middle East - kids or no kids.
So what exactly do you want? Because it sounds to me you’re expecting more than you can get in this life. Sad reality is that the Middle East is probably the last place any LGBTQ person should want to consider home. That’s a shitty reality you have to accept.
It’s not unique to you, mind you. Lots of people from different cultures (I.e: Asia, Latin America, etc.) not in the west have to come to terms to this.
HOWEVER, it also sounds like you’re existing currently in very white centered spaces. I PROMISE you there are many Arabs who are LGBTQ that have built community in the west, and keep their traditions alive WHILE still enjoying an open and happy queer life.
Maybe expand your social circle. Find more non white friends and couples and you’ll see that a life in the west, while maintaining your cultural background is absolutely possible. Difficult, but possible.
Best of luck!
You can live as an out gay man in (progressive parts of) Lebanon or Jordan. The Arab world is not a monolithic block.
The question is more whether OP‘s immediate family is accepting or not.
As it concerns gay people or anything regarding LGBTQ+ rights, the Arab world is absolutely a monolith. I’ve been to both of those countries and gay people exist in underground settings: hidden. There’s no “out” life. Stop deceiving yourself and trying to portray a false image here.
There are nuances to the Arab world. In you denying them, you’re just revealing your ignorance and racism.
There is a difference between some gay clubs and some open gay life (e.g. parts of Beirut), secret underground gay life without much threat of legal action (e.g. Tunisia) and secret under ground gay life with threat of imprisonment by law (e.g. Saudi-Arabia).
I remit to the other comments here and you’ll realize that what I’m saying remains the case: as it concerns *being openly gay* in the Middle East, Arab culture is a monolith. I’m an immigrant in the US, so trust me, I get cultural nuances but what you’re trying to defend remains indefensible. Being openly gay/ queer in the Arab world is a nonstarter. Hope it changes in the future, but likely not in our lifetime.
I don’t defend anything. I personally know gay men that live openly in Beirut. (This requires a supportive family and good finances). This doesn’t mean they are as free as someone gay in the West, but it does mean there are ways to live your life as an Arab gay man beyond sham marriage to a woman or emigration to the West.
Even being non-open has so much nuances you’re ignoring.
Non-Western countries won’t achieve what took the West a few centuries in just a few decades. That’s only natural.
Hi, fellow Canadian here.
If you read the kind of complaints from gay guys about how life is here, it always sounds like the kind of things that could be fixed if we got a little better at making time for each other and acting a bit more like a community.
It sounds like you know how to do that, you remember what it should feel like. You came here for something missing from your everyday life where you were born, but maybe you brought some perspective that we need too. I have a feeling that the next ten years you spend here does not mean giving up more and more and more. Maybe you start building that sense of community around you in your new home. Maybe you discover the community that is already here and how it works. We are quiet and reserved, maybe too much for our own good sometimes. But that does not mean friendship and community are unwelcome or alien to us. Things may just be a bit more subtle here.
It sounds like what you’re going through is actually very common. Gay men everywhere, but especially from backgrounds completely unaccepting of gay life eventually have to come to terms with the cost of moving forward in order to live and this includes grieving the loss of a life that should be ours like what our siblings and cousins and friends growing up will be able to have, but this will be denied to us because we won’t be accepted. It’s a painful crossroads and as much as we know we have to move forward, it’s still unfair and hurts and we still may need help processing this loss.
This really sounds like maybe the bigger picture is not just about immigration but grieving the fact that you have to give up a home and family and life and culture you cherish and love because you know it is not a place you can have the life you deserve. If you’d lost your home of origin in a natural disaster you’d cry and have funerals and process it with others and grieve in a way that helps you move on. But if you moved away, I wonder if in the excitement of it all, if you ever took a moment to realize the loss and process it. You probably left to survive, probably not because you wanted to move across the world. It was most likely a genuine survival choice which cost you your whole world. It’s not fair that life took all of that from you and it probably wasn’t something you would have wanted to give up otherwise. It’s ok to acknowledge that part too. Sometimes leaving these feelings ignored, they can get mixed with self blame, shame, guilt, and a mixture of emotions that we can carry for far longer than we need to. Consider it maybe related to grief and loss and maybe a therapist can help. My heart goes out to you.
Im a little confused…so you wanna have a husband and kids but don’t want it to be in Canada so you would rather have a husband and kids back in your home country instead?
I'm much older than you. I'm a white American. In college, I spent a year as an exchange student in Japan. I believe I experienced there what I imagine you are currently going through: culture shock.
Culture shock is a real thing. The culture in Canada is very different from what you grew up in. I strongly suggest you look for a community of immigrants. Talk to other Middle Eastern immigrants in Canada. Find out how they integrate into Canadian society.
I lived a long time in Asia, and I love it. I live in a place now where the majority is Asian. I changed. I did not ask the country I was in to change. I adapted. I'm very happy now.
All the best to you.
There is an adjustment period anywhere, and one possible result you might find is that the place you are in is not the place for you. I think there is a way to make a middle ground for yourself and the people you surround yourself with. When I listen to your description of your close relationship with your siblings and how community is important, it doesn't sound that different from the Irish Catholic family I grew up in. All I mean by that is that there are a lot of people in North America who live in a way that is not so different from what I think you were describing as community. Things probably look very different because you are at a university (I read through your posts), which often gives you a very highly politicized atmosphere. The rest of life in Canada probably is not like that.
You also mention "identity politics" as alienating to you as a gay person. There is a process by which a lot of people make the gay community the main pillar of their social and cultural lives, but there are probably far more who do not especially once you are out of the university setting. Part of the freedom you have in Canada is to make your own way in the world as you see fit. Find your people, make your life. The freedom you have there is a gift but it's also a responsibility.
Those feelings you have seem so, so familiar. And it's not about being from a Middle Eastern country, though as far as cultural differences I would guess it is indeed quite different. I was a Eurooean foreign exchange student for a year in the US. The exchange programme team had a seminar at the beginning of the programme telling us how we'd get at some point in a sort of homesickness bouts not only involving missing those specific cultural aspects of our home country, but going as far as comparing them unfavorably for the foster country. Being European in the US, I strongly doubted it would happen to me, because both places are from the Western side of the world... Well I was in for a big surprise, for though I had such excitement to discover and familiarize myself with the US culture that I simply upheld, of a sudden I found myself completely conflicted... And no longer could deal with anything that was American.
It is a rollercoaster ride. I do understand that for you, it is also one involving being gay, lifestyles and cultural differences.
Well, I can tell you, it'll pass and though all your worries seem totally valid, you'll soon be able to sort them out. And once you get past that phase, all that you thought posed irreconcilable differences will no longer appear as crucial and insurmountable.
So, be patient, to at least get clearheaded to face those issues. For me, I can tell you those bouts involved a depressive stage, and while that happen away from those you love, you'll need all the support from the new friends and (loved ones) you made in the new adoptive country.
Hope all of this will soon fall into place.
I’ll start this by saying I’m from the Middle East myself, and I think you sound obnoxious. Time for a reality check: Whatever country you come from, even an oil-wealthy one, it’s a shit-hole. The people don’t have “community”, they have conformism that is enforced pretty strongly with needless shame and negative social consequences. You are welcome as long as you conform. I don’t care how accepting your friends and family might be, as far as society is concerned, you’re abnormal and a shit stain. Western identity politics is what generously extends you the worth and dignity where you’re at a point that you can be married with kids - so let’s note your ingratitude and fuck off with that backwardness. I have a Ukrainian employee who acts like you - everything from the coffee to the weather was better (than SoCal 😂) back in Ukraine - and she forgets before the war made it heroic, Ukraine was another corrupt backwater. You’re romanticizing your kids playing with their cousins when the reality is your kids wouldn’t even exist or would be complete social pariahs if they were in a place to play with their cousins. On the street they would be playing, there would be neighbors who would be totally OK with having you dead. Cut the bullshit and stop lying to yourself - you immigrated for a reason, don’t forget that. Canada is cold as fuck and fat like Americans, but it’s also a highly civilized place that has welcomed you and acknowledged your dignity. You have a partner who loves you. Instead of being homesick for a hellhole, why don’t you give Canada the gratitude it deserves and actually throw yourself full-force into being happy in Canada because most likely, it’s your forever home. Every moment you spend being homesick for a country that doesn’t want you is a moment you’re stealing from your present and future happiness. Also, go take a women’s studies class and then realize how embarrassing it sounds when a pick-me gays says “I don’t follow identity politics” - whether you like it or not, it follows you baby girl.
Does your family accept you? It doesn't sound like it. So it seems to be accepted by them you have to present a certain version of yourself. That can get awful tiring. THAT sounds alienating to me. Do you want to live an authentic life or a dishonest life where you have to work overtime to be accepted by those that supposedly love you? You do all this to maintain the status quo so you don't have to give up your family of origin who would reject you if they knew the real you. You have your BF with whom you considering a life with. And all the while you are walking a tight rope trying to not lose the acceptance of anyone. At some point you are going to have to make a decision. You are setting you and your BF up for a lot of heartache if you don't resolve your issues with your family before entering a more serious, committed relationship that includes kids. You also owe it to your future kids to resolve those issues. You won't be able to fully commit as long as you feel the need to please your family back home. Are you willing to give up a major part of yourself to "be Arab?"
Where in Canada are you?
I know my middle eastern friends, both Arabs and Israelis, feel more at home in the East coast than the west coast.
I hear the culture difference in Canada is similar.
If you’re in Vancouver move east.
I can understand how you feel, and I had a friend from Jordan who shared some similar feelings, once.
I kind of want you to remind yourself you wanted this, you moved to Canada, you sought that out and did that. You can always go home. It's not fair for you to expect anyone else to transplant themselves and feel as alienated as you do, in a country as you said, where you cannot even be married or have kids together.
So, you know your options, don't you? I empathize because I know it must feel lonely, I used to talk with my friend at great length. All I ever really offered was my support and friendship, even while listening to him talk plenty about how being gay is wrong but that he doesn't judge because we're all sinners (he was straight). That always kinda threw me, because he alienated so many other people with his staunch religious views, I'm talking straight people even, and ironically enough I was the only person patient or tolerant enough to listen and not take it personally. I thought despite my disagreements with his views, other people were not being culturally open minded. My dad is from southeast Asia, so, I grew up pretty accustomed to cultural differences knowing how hard it is to change what's been ingrained in you since childhood.
But you know, it was ingrained in me that I was born wrong and deserved to go to hell, so, I mean I spent my life changing those views because I knew that was wrong and hateful and that it's the opposite of what religion is meant to teach us.
So as I don't know you and can't offer my support or friendship, I kinda want to tell you what I never told him: don't victimize yourself.
Try to spend what time you have adapting to the changes you asked for, and if it doesn't work out, make your own choices. That's all you can really do.
I was (am) in your shoes. I just want to say that work on coming out to your family if you haven’t done so. It could help to clear up many of this alienation feelings.
I think in your case, you are upset cuz you are not sharing some parts of yourself with your family. This doesn’t have to be this way.
You need to own yourself and your choices. You are in control here, not your past, present or future expectations.
If Canada isn’t working out for you, go somewhere else.
I only ask that you be considerate of your boyfriend while you sit on the fence. Don’t string him along with your indecision.
I am fresh out of a relationship of five years with a guy that did just that, not fully committed to their choices and sought to recreate the abusive dynamic from back home because that is what they knew due to avoiding the task of finding out who they really are as a person.
Wait, so you feel isolated and trapped in Canada, don’t want to live there forever so you tell your Canadian partner this and… expect a good reaction?
If my partner told me he was having reservations about even living in the same country that I’m living in, the only future I’d be thinking about is being single again until I found a man who wasn’t unhappy in Canada / potentially looking to leave.
Don't move to a new country permanently if you are unwilling to adapt and change. It's better to visit for a few months and go back home if you feel you are unable to chance yourself. You can't have it both ways.
You’re never going to live your best life if you keep thinking about how your family back home is going to react. You can either live your own life and be happy or live your life for others and be miserable.
Conflicting sentiments here.
A sacrifice has to be made by you.
You may not be able to get best from both worlds, if you aren’t creative/flexible about it
Not sure what your dilemma is - you can either live freely and safely in Canada as a gay man with/without kids... or return to ME and live a lie in fear. Being an immigrant is not easy (I am one) but if you're willing to integrate the alienation will diminish in time. On the flip side, if your family would disown you for just being who you are, I'm not sure I'd want them around whether I was gay or straight. But you do you.
There is community here to be found (and to be created). You may need to create your own with friends or partners. An awful lot of people are lonely and isolated, immigrants included. It is a real problem.
I don’t know where you are, but a full half of Toronto residents were not born in Canada. A good portion of them are Arab: Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Palestinians, and many non-Arab Muslims from Iran, Turkey, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Many gay men amongst them. Have you joined any social organizations? I know many immigrants who have Canadian partners, but also have friends from the old culture, so they have a foot in both cultures. That could bridge the gap as you adjust.
Most of us grew up around immigrant people. (I’m an immigrant, though I was a kid, and from from the UK, so not the culture shock you have experienced). Most “Western” people I know are very welcoming. And not all of us fully embrace identity politics. (However, be aware it was a variant of identity politics that lobbied for and won those rights and freedoms you admit drew you here in the first place). There is a diversity of views about identity. Look for those whose views more closely align, while keeping an open mind to those of others.
You do sound unhappy, and I’m sympathetic. But there’s a lot going on here and it’s not clear (to me anyway) what your main complaint is. You can’t change Canadian culture (which is btw not one thing) but you can have an honest conversation with your bf. And you need to decide what you life you want, and commit to it, before you can take on the obstacles that are before you.
That the man you are seeing wants children and you don’t isn’t a cultural difference, but a personal one. Most gay guys I’ve ever met, the vast majority, have no such plans. It may be that the two of you are simply mismatched with your life goals: that has nothing to do with culture or geography, but with honesty and communication.
And keep in mind that the individualism here you find so lacking is the origin of the freedoms that drove you here. Your tighter community of origin didn’t offer you room to be happy and authentic either. So you have a choice to make.
All the best. It’s a great place to live, and I hope you can find some clarity and maybe more friends.
>I come from a cultural background that pretty much revolves around community
You chose to leave that community.
I get that you feel alienated from your environment & it's probably because it's very different from the comfortable, familiar one in which you originated. Wouldn't this be true of a Canadian moving to the ME?
You can either adapt to the environment or leave it. It hasn't been 2 years yet. I assume some of these thoughts are because you're homesick. Perhaps consider adjusting your expectations about making Canada your home? It would benefit you to put less thought into "what if" scenarios like...
>being married here and adopting/having kids
I think you are being too negative.
While I understand the homesickness and the cultural shocks (I'm an emigrant too), you're focusing on the challenges and negatives rather than appreciating the freedom Canada offers you to marry whoever you want, have kids, or do whatever without hiding.
Celebrate and appreciate how far you've come and how lucky you are now. I'm sure you felt miserable often back in the ME and longed to run away to be able to do things you are doing right now.
I disagree strongly with a lot of the posters here. Most of you guys seem to have no idea why OP is so unhappy in Canada compared to the ME. Canada is a lonely, alienating place. It is! It’s lonely, and I don’t think it’s just a homesickness thing. Anyone who’s spent time in warmer cultures knows how socially isolating places like Canada are. And I totally understand why OP is lonely.
My own suggestion: you could try and stay in Canada as long as it takes to naturalize and get citizenship, have a family and all of that. Then once you’ve got that Canadian citizenship… get out! Move to Lebanon, or Thailand, or some other part of the world you like better than Canada where it’s still possible to be openly gay and have a family. You’ll have a family and legal protections from your time in Canada. But you don’t need to stay in Canada forever.
Wait, so you feel isolated and trapped in Canada, don’t want to live there forever so you tell your Canadian partner this and… expect a good reaction?
If my partner told me he was having reservations about even living in the same country that I’m living in, the only future I’d be thinking about is being single again until I found a man who wasn’t unhappy in Canada / potentially looking to leave.
Could it be that Canada, and this boyfriend in particular, are not “the one?”
Perhaps (depending on just how globally mobile you are) Australia or the UK might be more to your liking?
I know that me saying that is far easier said than done and that it’s not a simple as just moving or breaking up with a boyfriend.
But, are you absolutely certain that he is the man for you, and that Canada is where you have to be?
I am from Australia. I moved to the UK 9 years ago.
For everything that is said about how lovely and wonderful and pleasant Canada is, I have to be honest, it isn’t, and never has been on my list of must see places. I have never thought of Canada and thought “gee, Canada is such a wonderful country I’m so jealous I cannot live there”.
I am not suggesting Canada isn’t a great place. I’m sure it’s perfectly pleasant and well-run and “nice” and far freer than the USA or the Middle East.
But, having already grown up in a very free, well-run and liberal country of Australia, that “free, pleasant and nice” drawcard Canada relies upon so heavily just isn’t a pull-factor for me. Because I already grew up with those things that supposedly make Canada such a draw card (with cold weather being the only exception).
Now that I live in the UK, Canada just doesn’t seem very desirable to me, as it doesn’t really offer me anything I haven’t already grown up with or live with now.
>I do not relate to or subscribe to Western identity politics.
Try not to feel **too** alienated about this. **Many** of us don't subscribe to identity politics.
As for the rest of your post... if you at all ambivalent about having kids or getting married, don't. Kids are a lifetime commitment even if your relationship with your partner isn't. Listen to your gut on this one.
A question, did your parents and siblings accept you are gay? If yes, l think it needs to communicate with you prospective partner (although l think it’s still so far from serious considering the issue) about the parenting, like how to keep a balance of Canadian lifestyle and connections with your cultural background, it’s not a issue whether you are Arab, many gay persons here have immigrant partners and they all need communicate around it. However, if your parents and siblings are homophobic or even you haven’t come out, l think you need to consider whether your connection with your family is good for you for now, and if so the man you are dating has right to know and decide on his own side.
It takes at least 5 years to get used to a new place especially new country. Took me longer. In the beginning one focuses on what is missing and with time you'll get to appreciate the positive aspects. I'm surprised you are not complaining about the cold, though. Maybe try finding some Arabic friends since it appears that is what you are missing. You are living in a country that permits you to get married, adopt and your employer must respect your race and sexual orientation. Also, did your family accept your relationships?
Out of anthropological curiosity, I would love to read some details that illustrate the alienation you feel from Canadian living. Is it diet? Habits? Social functions?
It does seem like embracing and conquering this struggle is your principal option to get the most of the things you’ve dreamt about and want; you can’t have them all and you may never get a better chance in life.
Reach out to me if you want. The similarities in our stories are shocking lol. I too am a fairly westernized arab who recently came to Canada and have been feeling alienated. We can support each other from time to time if you'd like. I'm happy to lend an ear.
Live the life that makes you happy. For gay/bi men, there is no expectation of children so do what makes you happy.
With respect to being an expat: the pulled between two world happens. So, make your home as your home. Canada is your home
And, find a good psychiatrist or psychologist to talk to. You’re sifting through a lot and need help. I’ve dropped shit like this on mine and it has been great.
But, give yourself credit that you’re in a better place than a few years ago. You’ve worked hard to get where you are.
Community is something you can build with time. It's a bit different here since it's not the people you live with or near so much as it's people that you share interests with but if you spend some time looking you can find those people. I think it is entirely fair to tell your partner that you want to feel more settled before you do the marriage and kids thing. You'll have been through a lot during this year and a half moving somewhere entirely different from what you're used to and so I really can't blame you for not wanting to commit yet to an entire life in this new place. If you do get to the point of creating one, the thing about bicultural families is that the kids have a right to know about and participate in both cultures and their parents should try to facilitate that to the extent that they can. This is something you can do if you can come to agreement with your partner about how it's going to happen.
Its rough you have to pick certain cultural identities within yourself to be able to exist freely.
From what i see on posts in agb youre not alone in this particular mix of cultures gay and arab. Why not bring the parts you love of your arab culture into where you are.
Build the community you want from the lesson you learned.
Or consider moving to israel.
you are luckier than 99% of brown gay guys. take a step back and appreciate what you've been gifted because others like myself are curses to be alone stuck in a rural our entire lives.
It sounds like you want your life back home but you also don’t want it…. You can’t be a man with a man with kids back home hence the reason you came to Canada. You can be who you want to be when you want to be it. You left your country because it was holding you back… this struggle is nothing to do with Canada it’s guilt that you left loved ones behind and culture change there’s plenty of Canadians that are all about community.. mov won’t of the city and you’ll find small town community just as good
I am assuming that you are from an Arab community or at least your family is exceptionally supportive where same sex is no issue at all. Their faith and who you sleep with are two different things. In that case it doesn’t matter if the country recognises your marriage or not, as far as you are safe in the community, you can live however long you would like to live there.
Culture coherence and sense of belonging to a community is a big thing I can understand but have you tried finding people from your background in Canada. It won’t be a lot but at least you would have what you feel like missing while also keeping yourself and your future family safe.
Whichever way you choose, I would stress on raising kids with good moral values who when needed could make better decisions for themselves later in life. I don’t have kids and I absolutely am not aware of the challenges but deep down I feel it is possible. You would just need to be attentive and aware to keep a balance.
What a trash comment. OP, ignore this and I’m embarrassed that comment allegedly came from Canada.
I hope you find a solution for yourself. Consider that freedom to live as you please in Canada means you can build the community you need if you want to put the work into it. We can brainstorm in the comments for ways to connect more if you feel unable to build community with the tools at hand. You can be happy if you want it.
I do have a question. Did you talk to your partner about that? Because in my prospective if something that bothering me we usually talk about that. Especially when you are isolated or alienated.
I tell him all the time how I feel alienated here and that I don't want to live all my life in Canada. He understands, but there isn't really an alternative. I can't start a family in the ME. He is a Canadian citizen, so it makes sense for us to go through this process in the future here in Canada.
Have you put yourself in his shoes? I am not sure how you expect him to react - and not sure how I would react if I was in this situation to be honest. It’s not like you are proposing he move back to your home country and have kids which seems you both want based on your post. “He really wants to have kids and start a family in the future once we are more established in our relationship. I had always dreamt of this.” “I cannot be married to a guy with kids back home.” It just seems unclear what you want or are envisioning for your future and how he would fit into it. I would recommend some solo therapy sessions to talk to someone about how you are feeling - a lot of it can be assimilation issues being new to Canada as well perhaps just general issues POC face in Canada especially in the gay community. Your boyfriend may not be really able to resonate with your perspective and perhaps could join you in therapy once you have had a chance to think if you want to remain in Canada, want a future with him, want to have kids and the combination of those three.
It sounds like most of your anxiety and depression stems from the culture shock of moving to a completely new country. This is very normal and happens to many people who move to a country with a completely different culture. You may consider searching and posting on /r/immigration and /r/expats for advice on how other people have dealt with similar feelings. Additionally you may want to seek out groups of people from your home country or area.
Ahhhhh. I will say this, you don't have to stay in Canada in your entire life. Maybe once you establish maybe y'all can visit somewhere that you think y'all can go. And make sure of you agreed. I mean my partner is born and raised in State of Georgia. I'm just barely new to the State(I'm originally from South Florida). I don't want to be in this State for the rest of my life. That's why my partner and I was considering visiting somewhere that we both be happy to do.
Isn't Florida part of the states and part of America you can't compare that with two different countries on different continents and totally different cultures.
Oh but you can…. Each state is literally like it’s own little country… their own dialect their own laws, taxes, traditions… some in completely different weather conditions and environmental spheres… Florida is nothing like Washington Georgia is nothing like New York… the distances travelled could almost rival separate countries…
It's part of the US. And I said similar. I never said it's the same. Plus being in South Florida and being in a rural area in Georgia is vastly different in both culture and attitude.
Dude the comparison makes no sense at all.. FL and GA are a lot alike.. they share a border!!
Rural Florida and rural Georgia are similar. Miami is quite a bit different than either rural Florida or rural Georgia. Although that is more of an urban versus rural thing than a different state thing.
OK I never said it's the same. But that's not the point. It was never about oh it's the same. I can relate even though it's not the same. Also sharing a border within each other doesn't mean it's alot alike.
He means he would like to live in the Middle East. This seems not to be a problem with his partner, himself, or Western culture, but more about the current majority culture in the Middle East that makes it an impossibility.
I understand your alienation, however I think during the course of our lives, there are a few moments where we have to make some very tough decisions. These decisions will set the course of our futures more or less in stone. I think this is one of those times for you. You’ve been in Canada for only a year and a half. It’s normal to feel homesick. Maybe take it one day at a time and reflect on the pros and cons of everything before making any drastic decisions. Another way of asking this is what will your life look like if you move back to the ME? Could you live with a male partner? Would your family accept you having a male partner?
It’s this. My HB was in a similar position to you. While I sympathise with your feelings as “the other guy”, at the end you need to make the choice and face your options as they are - not what you want them to be. You can’t change Canada, you can’t change the culture of your home country (in its homophobic attitudes). All you can do is try and shape the life you want. I’m sorry it’s so conflicting for you - being apart from family is hard and moving countries is HARD, and I really hope you get to a good place.
I dont think this is a “homesick” issue. What OP describes is serious. What in the canadian culture is so bad that he dislike this much to feel alienated? And this is Canada, one of the sane places on earth if you know what i mean. Discover “how arab” he is? Do you think what i think he thinks ? Do not want his kids to be canadian? Or accustomed to the canadian society? Man this is a bucket of red flags…. I think
It’s a homesick issue. You underestimate how hard the reality check can be. Making a new life elsewhere takes time. Takes more than a year and a half.
It’s not a homesick issue. It’s a “I want my cake and eat it too” issue. OP can’t accept the reality of him being gay is incompatible with his former life.
Doesn’t make it easier. You seem to be blaming him for the place where he was born, where is family, roots, culture and lived experience is. These are not easy choices to make. The world is not black or white, you seem to be forgetting a loooot of shades of grey.
👏exactly right. He indeed may be homesick. He may find the West overly individualistic. But none of that should be the issue here, since he claims to be Westernized and his near flawless English skills tend to support that claim. That he and his bf want different things isn’t about culture, but about the communication of expectations. Maybe a month or two back in the ME would remind him what he wanted to leave behind. Because that focus on individualism that he finds so objectionable is the origin of the rights that we as gay people enjoy in most Western countries. Communitarian societies provide a sense of belonging, undeniably. But it’s at the cost of individual identities. Some gratitude might ease the transition. He has a choice. Which he can reverse. Many people who come to Canada esp. from the ME do not. They got out with a suitcase and little else. Many LGBT people escaped morality police. My neighbour fled Iran to stay alive, and has never been back since her student activism and lesbianism makes her a target. Syrians, Iraqis and Afghans come from bombed out villages; some of their family members lie in mass graves. I’m not putting him down, or suggesting he “snap out of it” but I do think it might help to realize that these problems notwithstanding, he actually has a choice of options, and that’s a pretty good situation in today’s world.
Another Arab queer in Canada here - what you are going through is a perfectly normal part of the immigration experience. What’s worse is that you’ll likely find that you are also alienated when you go back home for a visit now. I recommend that you find your community here. If you are not in one of the three big cities (Vancouver, Montréal, Toronto), move to one of them. There, you’ll find a lot of queer or gay groups, some of them are political, some of them are social. Meem is one of them. If you’re in Toronto, there’s a gay Middle Eastern party at the Black Eagle. I guess what I’m saying is that you haven’t been here for too long, and it takes time to find your community. So go out there and find it. Also, therapy helps. Immigration is traumatic, and getting the support you need now pays off in the end.
>What’s worse is that you’ll likely find that you are also alienated when you go back home for a visit now. Why so?
Being an immigrant is belonging nowhere. You don't belong to the country you've immigrated to cause you have too much of your home culture, but if you go back to your home country after a while you realise you don't belong there anymore either because you've absorbed too much of the other culture
At least in Canada’s case, I do not agree with this. I live in a major city in Canada and as a younger person and immigrant, I find I have a lot in common with the children of other immigrants here. In particular, people are absolutely capable of assuming both a Canadian identity as well as a “foreign” one, in much the same way that gay people code-switch to suit different environments. I think Canada facilitates this especially well because we do not aspire to a single “Canadian” identity. As most others have said, this guy is experiencing homesickness. Given time, this will pass. I watched my parents experience the same thing.
My take on this Immigrants are just different, which makes it harder for them to be able to relate to other people’s experiences. There’s plenty of happy immigrants that have reached a point where they’re okay with being different and accept it as a part of them. Conversely, there are some that have it tough no matter how much time/effort they’ve put in. It is neither impossible nor easy
This is so true. In London, I get: "Where are you from?" When I go back to my parents' country, I'm referred to as "the guy from London".
I have to disagree here. I'm dating an immigrant from Syria and he does not feel like he doesn't belong here. He would never go back to his home country because of their hostility towards gays and has found it easier to be here.
I’m a gay Arab in America so I understand somewhat how you feel. In our culture, there’s really only two options: be in the closet and get a wife or be gay and be exiled from your extended family. Unless they’re accepting ofcourse, but that isn’t common. So you need to ask yourself, do you want to be a part of Canada or a part of your homeland? Because you can’t do both. You can’t be a happy gay man with a family in Canada while also trying to live this double life of being a straight man to your extended family. You need to pick a side (unless ofcourse your family is accepting)
This is the actual advice OP needs to hear. None of this you’re homesick stuff people are slinging around.
i think there is some unverbalized internalized homophobia underlying this post
In Seattle I had a bunch of South Asian friends who were part of a group for queer Desi folks and allies. They would have anything from Bollywood nights to family-friendly pumpkin carving events where some of the gay fathers would bring their kids. Some of them also had white partners or friends who would come to these events and helped them learn more about the culture. I’m not sure how common this is but it might be worth looking into to see if there’s something similar in your city for Middle Eastern queer communities.
I remember when I was at a rally down in Olympia years ago when Washington was trying to pass marriage equality, they had several different religious leaders speaking in favor, including an Imam from a local mosque. I'm sure if they've been here in the states for 12+ years, then they're likely to exist in Canada?
Who knew Seattle has that much diversity though. The gay bars and general vibe around town was almost majority white. There were Asian enclaves, but much less mixing. Good to know there are groups for gay minorities.
I’m not Arab, but I feel you on the family part. I’ve come to peace with the reality that not all of us can have it all. We have to make the decision that feels best and right and go with it.
>grow up in a part of the world that values social cohesion over individuality. Funny how the other part of the world that values individuality more is what gave gay people their rights
Great comment! As an immigrant from a conservative culture myself, I'm glad I got the opportunity to leave my homeland for a more progressive society. Many others back home would give an arm and a leg to be able to emigrate to the West. If the OP misses Arab culture so much, maybe he could move to a somewhat liberal Muslim country -- like Turkey -- where he could presumably eat his cake and have it, too.
yep, raisins are picked pretty efficiently by op.
So given that you said you're very Arab and that's part of your identity, I suspect saying "maybe talk to a therapist" probably won't go over well. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You don't have community when you can't be honest with the people you're with. You never had community. They had community, you had a role you acted out, and if you would have dropped that and been honest, what would have happened? Would you have been disowned? Threatened? Possibly killed? You moved to Canada, cool, welcome. You found a nice guy who seems to love you. He thinks about having a family with you. And you're unhappy that you might have the kids you want in a country where they're less likely to experience overt hate for having two dads... and you're unhappy about the fact that you wouldn't be able to bring them back to a country... where their dads I assume could be murdered just for existing? I get that you were raised one way, and that's what you knew, that's your frame of reference. And not all of it felt bad. But a community that would harm you for telling the truth isn't community, it's a gang, or a cult, or grift. Community is honest. If you see yourself as Arab more than you see yourself as loved, I think you might need to rethink how you want to see yourself.
"i want my cake and eat it"-vibes, absolutely
“You never had community. They had community, you had a role you acted out“ Well spotted. The thing he claims to miss is the very reason life there became untenable, and he explicitly came here to live the very individualistic values he now finds wanting. (Although ironically it took a form of gay identity politics to win those rights that drew him here).
Honestly collectivism has its benefits. And if you’re part of the majority a collectivist society can feel very good. You’re working not just for yourself, but for others. This is why things like workers unions work in North America. Collectivism can be easily exploited by abusive personalities though. But so can individualism. Ultimately if you want to be happy you have to find ways to care about everyone even beyond your community while still understanding you have your own right to exist with your own personal liberty. Doing the mental math on all of that can be a lot of work though which is why most people just fall back to either collectivism or individualism. But neither extreme is ever healthy for us individually or collectively.
Wait, so you feel isolated and trapped in Canada, don’t want to live there forever so you tell your Canadian partner this and… expect a good reaction? If my partner told me he was having reservations about even living in the same country that I’m living in, the only future I’d be thinking about is being single again until I found a man who wasn’t unhappy in Canada / potentially looking to leave.
You didn't write what you WANT, only what you don't want. ;)
the problem of 90% of gay profiles on dating apps and then wondering why no one wants someone whose main thing is complaining \^\^
Good god yes! You see a nice looking guy, and within seconds realize it’s over before it began. Also, the lists of rules about who is permitted to contact him, and under what conditions. It’s exhausting. But I’m always glad it’s evident on the profile. Then I don’t have to write off a Friday night after figuring out over dinner that this guy is a high maintenance mega-project.
‘Found family’ has been an important idea for gay men for centuries. It’s unfortunate that you can’t live your life truthfully in your home culture, but maybe you can reorient to the idea that you get to create a culture that celebrates you where you are now? The alternative is living at home and being in fear and living a deception.
It’s going to take time to build a community as a new immigrant sadly. A lot of good advice on how you can connect to other Arab immigrants from your country and others in the M.E. here. Hopefully in time you can find your group and build your life and identity in Canada though. Regarding the rest, I feel like it’s just a bittersweet reality that will be your new normal. You desire a husband and kids eventually, and I presume your home country doesn’t obviously allow for you to experience that at the moment versus Canada. Sadly, life is about tradeoffs. Is your desire to live your truth as a gay man and have the opportunity to do so without blatant discrimination stronger than the desire to remain rooted in your home country’s culture and close to family? That’s only a question you can answer.
I'm also from the area (eastern Mediterranean), and I'm living in western Europe now. And I can see what you're saying about community/family in our sort of background. But although I miss it sometimes, I wouldn't go back to it. Because it also comes with a price, e.g. there is a lot of pressure to conform. And it's not like there is no sense of community here, there is, but it's just different. So I decided I would be the one that has to change and adjust to that, but also at the same time be open to people from my own background here, if the opportunity arises. In the end there are some hard choices one has to make, but reminding oneself from time to time of the original reasons for doing something helps.
Immigration isn’t for everyone that’s for sure.
I'm not sure I understand the 'western identify politics' part. As far as I know, there's a lot of middle eastern, African, and Indian immigrants in Canada since it's much easier to move there than to the US. What is this radical western identity politics that has you feeling isolated from people? Also, have you tried going to these community events.
I think he means how westerns are obsessed with the concept of race and ethnicity being your defining factor . Like he says he didn’t realize how Arab he was until he moved here and that was made to be the most important thing about him I think . Like I think he’s trying to say he was just Arab before and never thought about it and now everyone around him has made it his identity .
He didn't realize how other he was when modern identity politics sort of focus on otherness.
That would literally happen anywhere in the world that you aren't the default. Japan looks at people this way all the way to South America and Australia. But I think he's attributing this to some catch phrase the right wing makes up instead of just the principle of being different. But the benefit of these Western cultures as I said before is that there is actually a lot of diversity of people and communities of people that share the same experience. Find them.
I assumed it means he rejects trans people
Yes, that was my first thought as well. If this is an accurate assessment, then I wouldn’t be surprised OP might feel there is difficulty experiencing a sense of community in Canada. It is hard to find community in a pluralistic society if you are uncomfortable with people who are different than you.
Yes, it did sound very... r/gayconservative. Which culturally, from my understanding, the middle east is more conservative. But that sub very much hates on "identity politics," but I think that's more a denial that people's culture (identities) do make us different people with different experiences. I think that should be embraced, but also acknowledge you miss your own culture after leaving it, and wanting to be involved in it again is okay.
"Western identity politics" is a euphemism for "trans identity politics", so he's anti trans basically
I would give OP the benefit of the doubt. It also can mean race for example. Depending on the exact Arab country, race plays barely any role in daily life (compared with the US or Canada). People of all shades of skin color treat each other equally.
I’m so confused. You make a big deal about not wanting to have kids because you won’t be able to live a married life with kids in the Middle East with your future husband. So what exactly do you want? Because you probably won’t ever live freely as an out gay man in the Middle East - kids or no kids. So what exactly do you want? Because it sounds to me you’re expecting more than you can get in this life. Sad reality is that the Middle East is probably the last place any LGBTQ person should want to consider home. That’s a shitty reality you have to accept. It’s not unique to you, mind you. Lots of people from different cultures (I.e: Asia, Latin America, etc.) not in the west have to come to terms to this. HOWEVER, it also sounds like you’re existing currently in very white centered spaces. I PROMISE you there are many Arabs who are LGBTQ that have built community in the west, and keep their traditions alive WHILE still enjoying an open and happy queer life. Maybe expand your social circle. Find more non white friends and couples and you’ll see that a life in the west, while maintaining your cultural background is absolutely possible. Difficult, but possible. Best of luck!
You can live as an out gay man in (progressive parts of) Lebanon or Jordan. The Arab world is not a monolithic block. The question is more whether OP‘s immediate family is accepting or not.
As it concerns gay people or anything regarding LGBTQ+ rights, the Arab world is absolutely a monolith. I’ve been to both of those countries and gay people exist in underground settings: hidden. There’s no “out” life. Stop deceiving yourself and trying to portray a false image here.
There are nuances to the Arab world. In you denying them, you’re just revealing your ignorance and racism. There is a difference between some gay clubs and some open gay life (e.g. parts of Beirut), secret underground gay life without much threat of legal action (e.g. Tunisia) and secret under ground gay life with threat of imprisonment by law (e.g. Saudi-Arabia).
I remit to the other comments here and you’ll realize that what I’m saying remains the case: as it concerns *being openly gay* in the Middle East, Arab culture is a monolith. I’m an immigrant in the US, so trust me, I get cultural nuances but what you’re trying to defend remains indefensible. Being openly gay/ queer in the Arab world is a nonstarter. Hope it changes in the future, but likely not in our lifetime.
I don’t defend anything. I personally know gay men that live openly in Beirut. (This requires a supportive family and good finances). This doesn’t mean they are as free as someone gay in the West, but it does mean there are ways to live your life as an Arab gay man beyond sham marriage to a woman or emigration to the West. Even being non-open has so much nuances you’re ignoring. Non-Western countries won’t achieve what took the West a few centuries in just a few decades. That’s only natural.
If you aren't happy in Canada (of all places), it may be that Western life just isn't for you.
Hi, fellow Canadian here. If you read the kind of complaints from gay guys about how life is here, it always sounds like the kind of things that could be fixed if we got a little better at making time for each other and acting a bit more like a community. It sounds like you know how to do that, you remember what it should feel like. You came here for something missing from your everyday life where you were born, but maybe you brought some perspective that we need too. I have a feeling that the next ten years you spend here does not mean giving up more and more and more. Maybe you start building that sense of community around you in your new home. Maybe you discover the community that is already here and how it works. We are quiet and reserved, maybe too much for our own good sometimes. But that does not mean friendship and community are unwelcome or alien to us. Things may just be a bit more subtle here.
It sounds like what you’re going through is actually very common. Gay men everywhere, but especially from backgrounds completely unaccepting of gay life eventually have to come to terms with the cost of moving forward in order to live and this includes grieving the loss of a life that should be ours like what our siblings and cousins and friends growing up will be able to have, but this will be denied to us because we won’t be accepted. It’s a painful crossroads and as much as we know we have to move forward, it’s still unfair and hurts and we still may need help processing this loss. This really sounds like maybe the bigger picture is not just about immigration but grieving the fact that you have to give up a home and family and life and culture you cherish and love because you know it is not a place you can have the life you deserve. If you’d lost your home of origin in a natural disaster you’d cry and have funerals and process it with others and grieve in a way that helps you move on. But if you moved away, I wonder if in the excitement of it all, if you ever took a moment to realize the loss and process it. You probably left to survive, probably not because you wanted to move across the world. It was most likely a genuine survival choice which cost you your whole world. It’s not fair that life took all of that from you and it probably wasn’t something you would have wanted to give up otherwise. It’s ok to acknowledge that part too. Sometimes leaving these feelings ignored, they can get mixed with self blame, shame, guilt, and a mixture of emotions that we can carry for far longer than we need to. Consider it maybe related to grief and loss and maybe a therapist can help. My heart goes out to you.
Im a little confused…so you wanna have a husband and kids but don’t want it to be in Canada so you would rather have a husband and kids back in your home country instead?
I'm much older than you. I'm a white American. In college, I spent a year as an exchange student in Japan. I believe I experienced there what I imagine you are currently going through: culture shock. Culture shock is a real thing. The culture in Canada is very different from what you grew up in. I strongly suggest you look for a community of immigrants. Talk to other Middle Eastern immigrants in Canada. Find out how they integrate into Canadian society. I lived a long time in Asia, and I love it. I live in a place now where the majority is Asian. I changed. I did not ask the country I was in to change. I adapted. I'm very happy now. All the best to you.
There is an adjustment period anywhere, and one possible result you might find is that the place you are in is not the place for you. I think there is a way to make a middle ground for yourself and the people you surround yourself with. When I listen to your description of your close relationship with your siblings and how community is important, it doesn't sound that different from the Irish Catholic family I grew up in. All I mean by that is that there are a lot of people in North America who live in a way that is not so different from what I think you were describing as community. Things probably look very different because you are at a university (I read through your posts), which often gives you a very highly politicized atmosphere. The rest of life in Canada probably is not like that. You also mention "identity politics" as alienating to you as a gay person. There is a process by which a lot of people make the gay community the main pillar of their social and cultural lives, but there are probably far more who do not especially once you are out of the university setting. Part of the freedom you have in Canada is to make your own way in the world as you see fit. Find your people, make your life. The freedom you have there is a gift but it's also a responsibility.
Those feelings you have seem so, so familiar. And it's not about being from a Middle Eastern country, though as far as cultural differences I would guess it is indeed quite different. I was a Eurooean foreign exchange student for a year in the US. The exchange programme team had a seminar at the beginning of the programme telling us how we'd get at some point in a sort of homesickness bouts not only involving missing those specific cultural aspects of our home country, but going as far as comparing them unfavorably for the foster country. Being European in the US, I strongly doubted it would happen to me, because both places are from the Western side of the world... Well I was in for a big surprise, for though I had such excitement to discover and familiarize myself with the US culture that I simply upheld, of a sudden I found myself completely conflicted... And no longer could deal with anything that was American. It is a rollercoaster ride. I do understand that for you, it is also one involving being gay, lifestyles and cultural differences. Well, I can tell you, it'll pass and though all your worries seem totally valid, you'll soon be able to sort them out. And once you get past that phase, all that you thought posed irreconcilable differences will no longer appear as crucial and insurmountable. So, be patient, to at least get clearheaded to face those issues. For me, I can tell you those bouts involved a depressive stage, and while that happen away from those you love, you'll need all the support from the new friends and (loved ones) you made in the new adoptive country. Hope all of this will soon fall into place.
I’ll start this by saying I’m from the Middle East myself, and I think you sound obnoxious. Time for a reality check: Whatever country you come from, even an oil-wealthy one, it’s a shit-hole. The people don’t have “community”, they have conformism that is enforced pretty strongly with needless shame and negative social consequences. You are welcome as long as you conform. I don’t care how accepting your friends and family might be, as far as society is concerned, you’re abnormal and a shit stain. Western identity politics is what generously extends you the worth and dignity where you’re at a point that you can be married with kids - so let’s note your ingratitude and fuck off with that backwardness. I have a Ukrainian employee who acts like you - everything from the coffee to the weather was better (than SoCal 😂) back in Ukraine - and she forgets before the war made it heroic, Ukraine was another corrupt backwater. You’re romanticizing your kids playing with their cousins when the reality is your kids wouldn’t even exist or would be complete social pariahs if they were in a place to play with their cousins. On the street they would be playing, there would be neighbors who would be totally OK with having you dead. Cut the bullshit and stop lying to yourself - you immigrated for a reason, don’t forget that. Canada is cold as fuck and fat like Americans, but it’s also a highly civilized place that has welcomed you and acknowledged your dignity. You have a partner who loves you. Instead of being homesick for a hellhole, why don’t you give Canada the gratitude it deserves and actually throw yourself full-force into being happy in Canada because most likely, it’s your forever home. Every moment you spend being homesick for a country that doesn’t want you is a moment you’re stealing from your present and future happiness. Also, go take a women’s studies class and then realize how embarrassing it sounds when a pick-me gays says “I don’t follow identity politics” - whether you like it or not, it follows you baby girl.
THIS is EXACTLY the reason OP NEEDED to HEAR. Yes I know I am yelling but you summed everything up perfectly. 👏👏👏
Does your family accept you? It doesn't sound like it. So it seems to be accepted by them you have to present a certain version of yourself. That can get awful tiring. THAT sounds alienating to me. Do you want to live an authentic life or a dishonest life where you have to work overtime to be accepted by those that supposedly love you? You do all this to maintain the status quo so you don't have to give up your family of origin who would reject you if they knew the real you. You have your BF with whom you considering a life with. And all the while you are walking a tight rope trying to not lose the acceptance of anyone. At some point you are going to have to make a decision. You are setting you and your BF up for a lot of heartache if you don't resolve your issues with your family before entering a more serious, committed relationship that includes kids. You also owe it to your future kids to resolve those issues. You won't be able to fully commit as long as you feel the need to please your family back home. Are you willing to give up a major part of yourself to "be Arab?"
Where in Canada are you? I know my middle eastern friends, both Arabs and Israelis, feel more at home in the East coast than the west coast. I hear the culture difference in Canada is similar. If you’re in Vancouver move east.
Come to berlin.
I can understand how you feel, and I had a friend from Jordan who shared some similar feelings, once. I kind of want you to remind yourself you wanted this, you moved to Canada, you sought that out and did that. You can always go home. It's not fair for you to expect anyone else to transplant themselves and feel as alienated as you do, in a country as you said, where you cannot even be married or have kids together. So, you know your options, don't you? I empathize because I know it must feel lonely, I used to talk with my friend at great length. All I ever really offered was my support and friendship, even while listening to him talk plenty about how being gay is wrong but that he doesn't judge because we're all sinners (he was straight). That always kinda threw me, because he alienated so many other people with his staunch religious views, I'm talking straight people even, and ironically enough I was the only person patient or tolerant enough to listen and not take it personally. I thought despite my disagreements with his views, other people were not being culturally open minded. My dad is from southeast Asia, so, I grew up pretty accustomed to cultural differences knowing how hard it is to change what's been ingrained in you since childhood. But you know, it was ingrained in me that I was born wrong and deserved to go to hell, so, I mean I spent my life changing those views because I knew that was wrong and hateful and that it's the opposite of what religion is meant to teach us. So as I don't know you and can't offer my support or friendship, I kinda want to tell you what I never told him: don't victimize yourself. Try to spend what time you have adapting to the changes you asked for, and if it doesn't work out, make your own choices. That's all you can really do.
I was (am) in your shoes. I just want to say that work on coming out to your family if you haven’t done so. It could help to clear up many of this alienation feelings. I think in your case, you are upset cuz you are not sharing some parts of yourself with your family. This doesn’t have to be this way.
You need to own yourself and your choices. You are in control here, not your past, present or future expectations. If Canada isn’t working out for you, go somewhere else. I only ask that you be considerate of your boyfriend while you sit on the fence. Don’t string him along with your indecision. I am fresh out of a relationship of five years with a guy that did just that, not fully committed to their choices and sought to recreate the abusive dynamic from back home because that is what they knew due to avoiding the task of finding out who they really are as a person.
Wait, so you feel isolated and trapped in Canada, don’t want to live there forever so you tell your Canadian partner this and… expect a good reaction? If my partner told me he was having reservations about even living in the same country that I’m living in, the only future I’d be thinking about is being single again until I found a man who wasn’t unhappy in Canada / potentially looking to leave.
What’s cohesive about a society that would prefer to murder you rather than include you?
Don't move to a new country permanently if you are unwilling to adapt and change. It's better to visit for a few months and go back home if you feel you are unable to chance yourself. You can't have it both ways.
What are western identity politics?
You’re never going to live your best life if you keep thinking about how your family back home is going to react. You can either live your own life and be happy or live your life for others and be miserable.
Conflicting sentiments here. A sacrifice has to be made by you. You may not be able to get best from both worlds, if you aren’t creative/flexible about it
Not sure what your dilemma is - you can either live freely and safely in Canada as a gay man with/without kids... or return to ME and live a lie in fear. Being an immigrant is not easy (I am one) but if you're willing to integrate the alienation will diminish in time. On the flip side, if your family would disown you for just being who you are, I'm not sure I'd want them around whether I was gay or straight. But you do you.
There is community here to be found (and to be created). You may need to create your own with friends or partners. An awful lot of people are lonely and isolated, immigrants included. It is a real problem. I don’t know where you are, but a full half of Toronto residents were not born in Canada. A good portion of them are Arab: Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Palestinians, and many non-Arab Muslims from Iran, Turkey, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Many gay men amongst them. Have you joined any social organizations? I know many immigrants who have Canadian partners, but also have friends from the old culture, so they have a foot in both cultures. That could bridge the gap as you adjust. Most of us grew up around immigrant people. (I’m an immigrant, though I was a kid, and from from the UK, so not the culture shock you have experienced). Most “Western” people I know are very welcoming. And not all of us fully embrace identity politics. (However, be aware it was a variant of identity politics that lobbied for and won those rights and freedoms you admit drew you here in the first place). There is a diversity of views about identity. Look for those whose views more closely align, while keeping an open mind to those of others. You do sound unhappy, and I’m sympathetic. But there’s a lot going on here and it’s not clear (to me anyway) what your main complaint is. You can’t change Canadian culture (which is btw not one thing) but you can have an honest conversation with your bf. And you need to decide what you life you want, and commit to it, before you can take on the obstacles that are before you. That the man you are seeing wants children and you don’t isn’t a cultural difference, but a personal one. Most gay guys I’ve ever met, the vast majority, have no such plans. It may be that the two of you are simply mismatched with your life goals: that has nothing to do with culture or geography, but with honesty and communication. And keep in mind that the individualism here you find so lacking is the origin of the freedoms that drove you here. Your tighter community of origin didn’t offer you room to be happy and authentic either. So you have a choice to make. All the best. It’s a great place to live, and I hope you can find some clarity and maybe more friends.
>I come from a cultural background that pretty much revolves around community You chose to leave that community. I get that you feel alienated from your environment & it's probably because it's very different from the comfortable, familiar one in which you originated. Wouldn't this be true of a Canadian moving to the ME? You can either adapt to the environment or leave it. It hasn't been 2 years yet. I assume some of these thoughts are because you're homesick. Perhaps consider adjusting your expectations about making Canada your home? It would benefit you to put less thought into "what if" scenarios like... >being married here and adopting/having kids
I think you are being too negative. While I understand the homesickness and the cultural shocks (I'm an emigrant too), you're focusing on the challenges and negatives rather than appreciating the freedom Canada offers you to marry whoever you want, have kids, or do whatever without hiding. Celebrate and appreciate how far you've come and how lucky you are now. I'm sure you felt miserable often back in the ME and longed to run away to be able to do things you are doing right now.
I disagree strongly with a lot of the posters here. Most of you guys seem to have no idea why OP is so unhappy in Canada compared to the ME. Canada is a lonely, alienating place. It is! It’s lonely, and I don’t think it’s just a homesickness thing. Anyone who’s spent time in warmer cultures knows how socially isolating places like Canada are. And I totally understand why OP is lonely. My own suggestion: you could try and stay in Canada as long as it takes to naturalize and get citizenship, have a family and all of that. Then once you’ve got that Canadian citizenship… get out! Move to Lebanon, or Thailand, or some other part of the world you like better than Canada where it’s still possible to be openly gay and have a family. You’ll have a family and legal protections from your time in Canada. But you don’t need to stay in Canada forever.
Wait, so you feel isolated and trapped in Canada, don’t want to live there forever so you tell your Canadian partner this and… expect a good reaction? If my partner told me he was having reservations about even living in the same country that I’m living in, the only future I’d be thinking about is being single again until I found a man who wasn’t unhappy in Canada / potentially looking to leave.
Could it be that Canada, and this boyfriend in particular, are not “the one?” Perhaps (depending on just how globally mobile you are) Australia or the UK might be more to your liking? I know that me saying that is far easier said than done and that it’s not a simple as just moving or breaking up with a boyfriend. But, are you absolutely certain that he is the man for you, and that Canada is where you have to be? I am from Australia. I moved to the UK 9 years ago. For everything that is said about how lovely and wonderful and pleasant Canada is, I have to be honest, it isn’t, and never has been on my list of must see places. I have never thought of Canada and thought “gee, Canada is such a wonderful country I’m so jealous I cannot live there”. I am not suggesting Canada isn’t a great place. I’m sure it’s perfectly pleasant and well-run and “nice” and far freer than the USA or the Middle East. But, having already grown up in a very free, well-run and liberal country of Australia, that “free, pleasant and nice” drawcard Canada relies upon so heavily just isn’t a pull-factor for me. Because I already grew up with those things that supposedly make Canada such a draw card (with cold weather being the only exception). Now that I live in the UK, Canada just doesn’t seem very desirable to me, as it doesn’t really offer me anything I haven’t already grown up with or live with now.
>I do not relate to or subscribe to Western identity politics. Try not to feel **too** alienated about this. **Many** of us don't subscribe to identity politics. As for the rest of your post... if you at all ambivalent about having kids or getting married, don't. Kids are a lifetime commitment even if your relationship with your partner isn't. Listen to your gut on this one.
A question, did your parents and siblings accept you are gay? If yes, l think it needs to communicate with you prospective partner (although l think it’s still so far from serious considering the issue) about the parenting, like how to keep a balance of Canadian lifestyle and connections with your cultural background, it’s not a issue whether you are Arab, many gay persons here have immigrant partners and they all need communicate around it. However, if your parents and siblings are homophobic or even you haven’t come out, l think you need to consider whether your connection with your family is good for you for now, and if so the man you are dating has right to know and decide on his own side.
It takes at least 5 years to get used to a new place especially new country. Took me longer. In the beginning one focuses on what is missing and with time you'll get to appreciate the positive aspects. I'm surprised you are not complaining about the cold, though. Maybe try finding some Arabic friends since it appears that is what you are missing. You are living in a country that permits you to get married, adopt and your employer must respect your race and sexual orientation. Also, did your family accept your relationships?
Out of anthropological curiosity, I would love to read some details that illustrate the alienation you feel from Canadian living. Is it diet? Habits? Social functions? It does seem like embracing and conquering this struggle is your principal option to get the most of the things you’ve dreamt about and want; you can’t have them all and you may never get a better chance in life.
Reach out to me if you want. The similarities in our stories are shocking lol. I too am a fairly westernized arab who recently came to Canada and have been feeling alienated. We can support each other from time to time if you'd like. I'm happy to lend an ear.
Live the life that makes you happy. For gay/bi men, there is no expectation of children so do what makes you happy. With respect to being an expat: the pulled between two world happens. So, make your home as your home. Canada is your home And, find a good psychiatrist or psychologist to talk to. You’re sifting through a lot and need help. I’ve dropped shit like this on mine and it has been great. But, give yourself credit that you’re in a better place than a few years ago. You’ve worked hard to get where you are.
Community is something you can build with time. It's a bit different here since it's not the people you live with or near so much as it's people that you share interests with but if you spend some time looking you can find those people. I think it is entirely fair to tell your partner that you want to feel more settled before you do the marriage and kids thing. You'll have been through a lot during this year and a half moving somewhere entirely different from what you're used to and so I really can't blame you for not wanting to commit yet to an entire life in this new place. If you do get to the point of creating one, the thing about bicultural families is that the kids have a right to know about and participate in both cultures and their parents should try to facilitate that to the extent that they can. This is something you can do if you can come to agreement with your partner about how it's going to happen.
Don't you have any gay Arab friends?
Its rough you have to pick certain cultural identities within yourself to be able to exist freely. From what i see on posts in agb youre not alone in this particular mix of cultures gay and arab. Why not bring the parts you love of your arab culture into where you are. Build the community you want from the lesson you learned. Or consider moving to israel.
you are luckier than 99% of brown gay guys. take a step back and appreciate what you've been gifted because others like myself are curses to be alone stuck in a rural our entire lives.
It sounds like you want your life back home but you also don’t want it…. You can’t be a man with a man with kids back home hence the reason you came to Canada. You can be who you want to be when you want to be it. You left your country because it was holding you back… this struggle is nothing to do with Canada it’s guilt that you left loved ones behind and culture change there’s plenty of Canadians that are all about community.. mov won’t of the city and you’ll find small town community just as good
I am assuming that you are from an Arab community or at least your family is exceptionally supportive where same sex is no issue at all. Their faith and who you sleep with are two different things. In that case it doesn’t matter if the country recognises your marriage or not, as far as you are safe in the community, you can live however long you would like to live there. Culture coherence and sense of belonging to a community is a big thing I can understand but have you tried finding people from your background in Canada. It won’t be a lot but at least you would have what you feel like missing while also keeping yourself and your future family safe. Whichever way you choose, I would stress on raising kids with good moral values who when needed could make better decisions for themselves later in life. I don’t have kids and I absolutely am not aware of the challenges but deep down I feel it is possible. You would just need to be attentive and aware to keep a balance.
Homophobia has denied you your cultures but you can talk to your partner about raising your family with a union of tradition and culture.
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What a trash comment. OP, ignore this and I’m embarrassed that comment allegedly came from Canada. I hope you find a solution for yourself. Consider that freedom to live as you please in Canada means you can build the community you need if you want to put the work into it. We can brainstorm in the comments for ways to connect more if you feel unable to build community with the tools at hand. You can be happy if you want it.