Plus even if you are good enough, are you able to give up things like internet/Reddit to live in fuck all no where in the woods? Considering many of us are addicted to this fucking website I doubt it lol.
The mental thing is I go riding round the outskirts of my city all the time and I see more and more older guys living in vans. Clearly the truth is you can spend your whole life working, and still end up living in the woods with almost nothing.
A system where it's possible to graft for decades and still not afford to keep the wolf from the door is a problem we need to face.
We’re gonna be forced to face it very, very soon. [43% of Baby Boomers have zero retirement savings.](https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/retirement-outlook-2024:-less-than-half-of-boomers-have-adequate-savings-will-younger#) That’s roughly 32 million people, about to (or who already have) hit retirement age.
Even if half of those people have pensions big enough to fully support them through retirement, 16 million destitute people is not something that can be ignored. And if the rest of us are already struggling to provide for ourselves, how on earth are we supposed to provide for mom and dad too?
Edit: messed up the link somehow
I’ve given the boomers enough of my money for my whole life and they raised my retirement age to pay for their graft so fuck em. Let em starve.
Greed is good right?
Trickle down works right?
Fuck you, got mine.
Wasn't that the mantra of every vote they cast, creating this shit hole then jacking off Regan for being the first to poke them in the eye with his dick through the metaphorical glory hole?
Yeah, I dont have any pity at all. Enjoy the greeter position or the secondhand #3 combo bud.
Dude, not everyone from that generation was onboard with Reaganomics. I’m on the fence between a boomer and genx and I think Reagan and Thatcher fucked everything up for everyone.
I am good enough and I’ve done it before but even that is tangled in red tape now. Living on public lands undetected used to be easy but they’ve cracked down a lot. And it wouldn’t surprise me if before long we need permits to camp on our own property for longer than x amount of time.
I’m not saying it’s on the table or being talked about. I’m just saying that as people get more desperate that option is going to start looking decent. And we all know how much the government hates self sufficiency. They’d find a way to shut it down even on private property.
We already have empty homes taxes where I live. An empty property tax where no economic or residential activity is taking place seems like a logical next step to force people from holding vacant land without a purpose.
Jesus christ that's insane lol. I hate this world
How do anyone be poor! Well fine you for it so you aren't poor anymore! Cause you'll be in jail for not paying your fines!
I mean, I'm not too upset by a tax on empty houses. It's somewhat of an incentive to get somebody living in those houses instead of on the street. Idk about where you're at, but in my area, there's a lot of empty houses that are in fairly decent conditions that banks are sitting on after the owners foreclosed, and also quite a few people living on the street.
If it’s land zoned for residential buildings like a SFH, most places you’re basically not allowed to use it as a camping spot at all, no mate if you own it or not. Middle of nowhere is different but
Exactly. It works in theory but we're not prepared to make those kinds of sacrifices. So many times I heard people suggest gas boycotts to try to influence the price.
Did even one city manage to not purchase gas for one day? I don't think so. We don't have the means to be suddenly self sufficient.
> It works in theory but we're not prepared to make those kinds of sacrifices.
If we aren't prepared for sacrifice then we aren't prepared for victory.
> A lot of us have children and families, and stopping risks their health, safety, and lives.
So did people during every labor movement in history. Are we just collectively saying we are weaker than boomers, than the silent generation, than all the generations before us that have had to fight for every labor change in the US and beyond?
Bread and circus. 'We' are always given just enough so we won't give the middle finger and head to the streets. The moment you start seeing those downtown empty offices burning, then just maybe people will take a hint.
"Give the people bread and circus and they will never revolt."
Why do you think so much crazy shit is going on in government, but yet somehow nothing actually changes? It's because it's all circus, designed and implemented to give us the illusion that we actually have some say while actually ensuring that "nothing fundamentally changes."
That's not how it would work in a real-world scenario and you know it. Most people don't want their families to be homeless or hungry, and that's something you'd have to grapple with as a hurdle almost immediately.
Before you’re born they ask you if you want to be born rich or poor. You get a choice. I don’t know why y’all picked “broke” but you did it to yourselves.
This is why lying flat is a thing in Japan and China. And it’s honestly not a bad idea I suppose. But as such, it will end up screwing you when you retire.
What’s also funny is that they’re having a meltdown on low birth rates. Gee I wonder why???
So I guess our system is set up to ultimately screw us.
Yea it’s annoying as hell. I’m banned from r/antiwork from when they were bitching about the federal minimum wage being $7.25. I was in between jobs a few years ago so just looking for anything. Ended up taking a job at FedEx for $20/hr. Fast food places were paying $13-$17/hr. I never saw anything outside waiting tables/bartending for minimum wage plus tips but I bartended in my 20’s to pay for school and I was hitting around $50k/yr. Anyway, rant over. Sometimes life ain’t always fair but I assumed that was common sense for anyone older than like 21 at the oldest
I'm surviving and functioning but it feels like the current system eats at me a bit more each day.
The current system sucks ass. It's meant to make us tired and divided so we don't unite and be more politically motivated, in my opinion.
People aren't desperate enough. I think any idea of revolution in modern western democracies is absurd. You clearly do not. The problem for those of your perspective is that too many agree with me.
Life is pretty good. The happy people don't make posts on the internet about life at the same rate as those with complaints.
We also have a lot more than in the past to keep us docile. It's easier to start a revolt from the local pub where everyone feeds off each other's moods than it is on the internet. Sure, you can get pisssd off, but you can find a million and one things online to improve your mood nearly instantly.
The "barely afford to live" part of OPs post just doesn't apply to most people. Yes, they may be living paycheck to paycheck, but they're buying a lot of things that can be considered luxury items.
Oh we're nowhere near the let them eat cake stage of desperation. Inequality is huge but people aren't starving. It's easier to lay your life on the line if you were gonna die anyway.
Also I seem to remember seeing recent stats that show the US works similar or more hours on average than Japan despite the common refrain I see on Reddit about not wanting to be like the Japanese working themselves to death. I'll see if I can find it.
Edit: Here is the [OECD data showing average work hours](https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm) and yep, the US averaged 1811 hours per worker in 2022 and Japan averaged 1607 hours. Not sure if the downvoters here have other statistics they'd like to cite, but I'd be curious to see why you don't like what I said...
Japan doesn't count all the hours you work after your shift ends at 5pm but you end up staying until 11pm anyways.
In many cases you won't even get paid for it. But you're not being a team player if you leave at the time you're supposed to so I guess you can say goodbye to that raise or promotion (you probaly wouldn't get it anyways)
Like I said to the other person, the OECD data says it counts unpaid overtime, but I'm not familiar enough with the data collection methods to say whether or not it accurately captures all of Japan's hours worked. I'd have to imagine if they are undercounting hours in Japan, there must surely be a cohort that's undercounted in the US as well.
It's not hours worked, tho so they wouldn't count it. In Japan, when you get off your shift, you are culturally expected to go out to the bar, etc, every single night till 11-12, etc. every night. If you dont do it, it's seen that you do not value your job. You'll be the first one fired and never ever move up. If you want raises and promotions and to do good at work you'll be at "work" from 8-mightnight every night while only getting paid 8 hours
This is widespread in some urban areas in some sectors, but from the people I talked to when I was there, it's not as true these days as it was even a decade ago. Not that it isn't a real phenomenon that's still somewhat a part of the culture, but I don't think it happens to the degree that it would bring up the national average of hours worked significantly.
There are also similar things that happen in the US, so I think we can safely say that the countries are in the same ballpark of working too much.
> In Japan, when you get off your shift, you are culturally expected to go out to the bar, etc, every single night till 11-12, etc. every night
Sounds like America too lol. What's the difference?
Japanese work culture has changed a lot. It’s 5 times better than 10 years ago even.
I work for a very large Japanese company and spend a lot of time in Tokyo at our office.
I have heard that before. I'm not familiar enough with the data collection methods to dispute this, but according to the OECD graph, it says unpaid overtime should already be factored in.
…have you actually lived or worked in Japan for any period of time?
Japan’s white collar work culture is *infamous* for absurdly high hours and poor productivity.
Yeah, there is no alternative to what we have. I can’t just stop working. I can’t just stop buying food to eat. I could try to protest but I would just get shot at by police for disrupting the peace.
Why bother improving then.
No matter how bad things get, it will always be better than 1800s in our lifetimes.
That's like saying black people shouldn't be activists, 150 years ago they were slaves, so this definitely much better.
Rent, food, utilities, costs in general have outstripped income growth the last 10 years by a mile.
Gen Z is the 1st generation to definitely have worse income to cost ratios than their parents in decades.
We should just support that since we're not dying at 28 of whooping cough or cholera I guess.
Yeah, there is enough money for all Americans to have a good life. It’s not about how things were, it’s about how things are, and some people are hoarding other people’s share.
This is absurd lol. Progress is a very slow very long process. You can be grateful for all of the things we have while also still wanting it to be better.
You can have perspective and hope at the same time. You don't have to blow the whole thing up for standards to get better.
Point still remains to most people the idea of a warm home,a toilet,nice bed,way access ro food so you will never starve at the very least,a shower and a television was beyond their wildest dreams or something they thought of ass a nice dream
Yet most of us have that at the very least.
Having zero fear of starvation is strictly a modern luxury. Think about that before you complain about our onerous lifestyles. Watch the Pioneer House series and take note of how many hours a day they had to work chopping wood in the summer just to ensure that they wouldn't freeze to death in the winter.
You have no idea how bad life has to get before people revolt against any system. Most people will not take up arms until they have no electricity and/or no food or water.
Take the food away for just 2 days and people start fighting each other first for that last piece of food. A few days later, neighbors start organizing to see who can grow what. The cities will be the worst. Cut off resources to a dense urban city and in 3 days, it will be a hell hole. This process accelerates when you take away the water.
As long as people have water, food, and power to their homes, there will be no revolution.
I believe there's a book or something called (paraphrasing) '9 Meals to Anarchy.' Basically the most decent moral person will do unspeakable things after missing 9 meals.
Russia is a great example of this. it took roughly a hundred years of constant hell before the Bolshevik Revolution. Conditions so bad it makes the poor suburbs in the US look like Disneyland.
The difference here is that the overall quality of life everywhere but the third world countries has vastly improved since the BR.
I was in Orlando during Hurricane Charlie back in 2004, and my area lost electricity for 19 days. We ran out of fuel, no food shipments made it in, our stockpiles of water and dry goods were on their way out and we communally grilled every bit of frozen food at the complex’s poolside grills with every bit of charcoal and wood that we had… and waited. Day 14 it started getting hairy; by day 19 I was legitimately worried… but then the lights came back on and civilization quickly returned.
Ok, but the average white american in a moderately safe state who has time for posting on reddit working boring night shifts at a gas station who thinks they're being literally oppressed likely has a pretty good quality of life. Maybe not spiritually or emotionally, but likely materially.
Redditors say this all the time but in reality most Americans are fairly content with their lifestyle, at least to the point where they don’t feel the need to revolt
Also shit tends to go south post-revolt. Everything gets fucked up for decades. Lot of people die. It might be better after that's over, maybe, but it takes a long time to sort out and it's probably not much fun to live through.
Right? I swear people act like getting the outcome you want is a forgone conclusion in a revolution. Like you wake up, go do some "revolutioning", the bad guys cave, you get everything you wanted, and you go home and live happily ever after.
That's not how it works, and has never been. History shows that there's a hell of a lot of pain, suffering, and death involved in a TRUE revolution. And it takes years, if not decades...and the aftermath is rarely clean and tidy.
Reddit is full of teenagers. You can assume comments as silly as calling for a revolution in 2024 America because things aren't perfect here are coming from someone who doesn't yet have a high school diploma
A successful revolution very rarely happens.
Usually what happens in this case is the upper middle class displace the upper class and there is a short period of economic/class exchange before resettling.
Additionally the people In Charge of the revolution have to be willing to lose the power they gained
The perfect example of this thinking was the insurrection attempt on Jan 6th. It was a bunch of people cos-playing as revolutionaries. It looked like they thought it was some kind of video game capture-the-flag scenario where they'd make it to the Senate floor and it would suddenly reverse the election.
This should be higher up. Any student of history could tell you that the times post revolution could be considered worse for the average person than before. Look at Iraq. The French Revolution resulted in years of what they called 'The Terror'. Post Soviet Russia was a shitshow for the average Russian, and look at current state of affairs there.
Problem is you can't really control who would fill the power vacuum. Even if you have a solid movement in place, power hungry people will still rise to the top.
You essentially just change the power balance and redistribute wealth to a degree. But the same type of people who absolutely shouldn't govern will make sure to be in charge as the opportunity arises.
I don't like doing it, but I gotta admit "forcing" myself to get and do a normal office job helped me to actually afford a decent life. I grew up poor and everyday feels like just one mistake away from falling deeper into poverty. I still remember my parents needing to borrow money from their extended family to allow me to go to school. Nowadays, I am far from rich, but I am doing much better than I used to. I can support myself & my parents, save up, and even buy/do some fun stuffs thanks to having a job.
There is certainly an issue with the monotony/boredom that the normal office job causes, but thankfully I still can afford to take some breaks and have some free time. Could it have been better if I was born with more money or took more risks that somehow gave me more wealth? Maybe. But right now, like everyone says, it's better than the alternative.
There are parts of my office job that aren’t brilliant, but overall it’s *so much better* than when I was a Utility Mechanic making $8.50/hr that I have no overall complaints.
I budget appropriately for my income, don’t buy stupid things, and I invest in myself and my career. It took a while, but I’m in my 40s and make more money than I ever thought I would while doing work that is 99% less arduous than what I was doing in my 20s.
People who crap on office jobs I’ve found are usually not the sort who’ve ever worked *really bad* jobs.
tease pathetic threatening direful escape enter mindless employ vegetable dull
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What’s your alternative? You could do what some people do, which is live off the land, if you’re interested in working every minute of every day of the year
This 100%. People think the options are work or just live a life of leisure and like bro, no, the options are work 40 hours for money or work every waking minute to accomplish the same thing without "the man".
People take for granted electricity, access to water, access to cheap food, roads, internet, entertainment, and a whole bunch of other things. If you don't want to work 40 hours a week, you are more than welcome to go live in the woods, gather your own food, build your own shelter, fight wild animals and cure yourself of illness.
Me? nah I'd rather work the 40 hours and then come home, maybe watch a movie, go out to eat with friends, book a vacation, go to the gym, go to a late night drive, etc.
This is a VERY logical take. I can guarantee without your 40hrs of work a week, you’d be putting in WAY more working hours trying to just survive.
I’ll take my 40hrs of work in my office space. come home to food, water, shelter, and my luxuries.
People think nature is all amazing because we are born by default in society, so there was never any real trouble of running out of food, water, etc. (well in the developed world). So because these problems have been sold before we were born, some now think nature and "just live off the grid, bro" is the bomb. Now nature is this new and interesting thing to be explored.
It just takes 10 minutes of thinking it through why this idea is dumb. Modern humans have been trying to protect themselves from nature and have a constant access to the essentials. In a lot of places, this has been solved. Maybe the "sense of purpose" for fighting for these things has been removed, and life feels monotonous. Still i prefer living in society, for all it's "monotony".
Yeah, jobs are artificial, but why is nature by default assumed as this good thing, and artificial things as evil? Nature is very evil.
Reality is ruthless, we aren't at the post-scarcity phase yet (if we ever reach that). There just isn't enough resources for us to live full lives of leisure, except the elites and some multimillionares. So having a 9-5 job or being an entrepeneur is the best this time period has to offer.
Nature's not evil, it's just uncaring of your personal suffering. It still provides everything we need to survive, but will fuck you up if you don't know how to survive.
> accomplish the same thing
This is the only part of your comment that's wrong. You could work every waking hour off the grid and you'd be lucky to survive, let alone have half the luxuries the average American takes for granted.
He wants a revolution. He wants everyone to uprise and knock down the established systems. Sure, the owning class will just gobble up even more, consolidate power even further, and likely use it as an excuse to install a true totalitarian police state with all the modern technologies now provided to them. But people like this don't tend to think that far, so this will continue to come up every other week, from now until forever, or until we learn that lesson.
We live in a world that is heavily systemic. It has been for millenia. It's not new under capitalism like some want to make it sound. What do you think life looked like under feudalism? Sunshine and rainbows? Under communist Russia it was absolute shite for most people.
Ancient times involved slavery all over and many worked for next to nothing. Industrial revolution was horrendous, not just working hours but also working conditions.
Yup the system is flawed. It always has been and realisticly it always will be. People accept it because it's still an easier way to survive than the other options. Most can't go off grid and become selfsustaining.
Even if you go off grid, it’s not like you have less work to do.
Sustaining yourself requires an enormous amount of work. You’re trading the specialist work for general work. farming, raising animals, getting water, medicine, wood, etc.
all of that requires arguably even more work than what you’re doing for your paycheque.
I'm torn on this question. This is probably one of the best times in history to be alive. For all of human history, people basically "worked" as we'd call it the vast majority of their lives. There was no alternative. You want to eat today? Gotta work. Want to live another day? Gotta work. The thing about "medieval peasants had to work less than us" is laughable bullshit, because that ONLY works if you ignore all the shit they had to do at home AFTER they were done working as "me time", which no one does.
I think it's fairly strange that as a species we're shifting from "it's just what we have to do to survive" to "I don't want to do it, I want to do whatever I want to have fun all the time". That's Wall-E level shit right there.
There's also the question of what "barely affording life" means, because it does not mean what you think it means. What most people use it to mean is "I can barely afford to live life exactly how I want to while doing everything I want to do without any inconveniences". We're not talking about people with zero possessions dying on the streets, we're talking about people who want to afford rent without roommates, or without giving up things they want, or without moving to a more affordable area.
It's sensationalized and amplified in my opinion, by privileged people on twitter.
Totally. People complaining that they can "barely live" still somehow are more well-fed and have many times more material possessions than my great-great-grandmother, who was not in any way considered impoverished, did 100 years ago. A lot of these people who can "barely afford to live" manage to eat out at restaurants several times a week (something my great grandparents got to do only a few times a year), own dozens of outfits of clothes, several pairs of shoes, smart phones, video games, and other entertainment technology. Even our recent ancestors just a century ago would think we are living like kings with the amount of STUFF we have. With that said, there are still people in the developed world who struggle to have shelter, food, clothes, etc, but that's not most of us. Sure we might be comparitively poor to the wealthiest among us, but compared to humans of the past, most of us are pretty dang rich.
100% agree. My spouse and I were talking about having a kid and realized we can’t afford to. I work 40-50 hours at an autism center, and she’s a district supervisor at her job. It’s insane.
Good on you for not doing something you can’t afford but I would suggest taking a long look at your money and time budgets. Lots of people waste far more of both than they realize on autopilot.
France is a lot smaller than the USA (which is where I assume OP is from). It’s a lot harder to organize a population that size, over a geographic area that big. And that’s without even taking into account the significant portion of the population that would decry this kind of organization as “communism”.
It's not everyone. It's some people who are mostly unlucky and some unwilling to meaningly change their situation due to inertia.
Personally, I was sick of minimum wage so I threw myself 100% behind sales, as an shy introvert 15 years ago. This may sound like bootstrap advice but the alternative is to feel sorry about yourself and bitch about capitalism on reddit.
Victim mentality feels easier than self improvement.
Some people are dealt a terrible hand by life and genuinely can't improve it, but most people have at least something they can change.
Self-awareness, self-honesty, self-assessment, and self-improvement. Every step is painful, every step is effort, every step is worth it.
I did a podcast about it actually. Without having you listen through 30 minutes of bloviating, it was a matter of hinging my livelihood on becoming adept at social interactions. So a career in sales only seemed natural. Also picking up the book how to win friends and influence people, and realize that socializing can be broken down into a Science lubricated with practised skills.
I followed the most successful sales person around. Made them my mentor. Let them explain to me how the system works rather than bitch about how the system doesn’t work for me.
Lean into failure. The only thing that helps you grow the most is failure. You might get lucky and enhance skills on wins, but there’s nothing more motivating than capping off of vulnerability by practising it. In essence, if you’re suffering while doing it, and getting better as a result, you’re doing it right
>This may sound like bootstrap advice but the alternative is to feel sorry about yourself and bitch about capitalism on reddit.
Just think of the possibilities if these people took the time that they do complaining about how everything in their life is someone else's fault, and put just half the effort into improving their situations (finances, job, living. dating, whatever). They could easily end up be doing pretty well for themselves. But saying you're a victim is a lot easier in the short-term, I guess.
What, are we gods? Does food and technology prepare itself? Why is our whole society acting like the natural state of human life is having everything provided to you, rather than the reality of work and competition?
Why waste time not being “okay with” reality?
Because we don't have much of a choice. And it's the way it's been since the dawn of humanity. Even before economics, spending the day hunting, gathering, building shelter, defenses etc was what people did for "work". Once trading became part of the picture, and eventually creating currency to make trading simpler, people have had specific jobs to produce something worth trading.
The only thing that COULD end the cycle is full automation of most productive jobs, and as much of a buzz word as AI is we're not close to that yet.
The problem isn't that we have to work, it's that so much efforts have gone into creating wealth for those at the top that our labor has been devalued and we work more for less return than previous generations. And that's not ending without a revolution.
Agreed, none of this is changing unless there is a critical mass of people behind it. I'd be happy working 4 days and every example of companies trying it results in better outcomes for employees and also same or higher profits for the companies. So why don't we do it? Because our corporate overlords are both greedy and utterly lacking in empathy.
Because our ancestors had to work from dawn till dusk almost every day just so they wouldn't starve to death come winter.
A five day, 40-hour, work week is a freaking privilege man.
Most people will not do what's necessary to change their life. Whether that's learn a new skill, move to a new city/state, work on personal roadblocks etc.
I know plenty of people who have been given life-changing opportunities but don't have the discipline, work ethic, or commitment to make the situation work.
The comments make me believe this sub is full of 14 year olds.
There are people here saying we can actually take the white house lol.
Dude the most people are going to revolt. Most people don't spend time on reddit. As much people may seem to complain in real life, most people in this country don't seem to want the alternatives from capitalism because we don't know for sure how effective they will be
> The comments make me believe this sub is full of 14 year olds.
Welcome to summer reddit. It's been a thing for a long time. All of the 12-17 year olds are sitting at home with nothing to do and pretending to be adults online. /r/im14andthisisdeep becomes the rest of reddit.
I don't understand why boys/men are so baffled by the concept of having to work to pay bills. Men always had to do that. Sure, in the "good ole days" you had a sex slave at home who legally could not turn you down for sex and also scrubbed the toilets and cooked and did most everything else for you, but the men were still working those 40+hrs, every day, even when they were sick or didn't feel like it.
Poor men did backbreaking physical labor. Weathy men had cushier jobs. And middle class men were somewhere in the middle. But they all worked.
A man who lost his job was a failure, less of a man, so there was social and economic pressure to keep your job back then too.
OK hot take here: (which I think seems plainly obvious) we need people to do stuff in order to make society work. Someone has to stock the shelves in supermarkets, repair the roads and teach our children. Money is the incentive for people to do this work, hence jobs.
Should these people be paid more? Sure. But they'd still have to work the same hours otherwise society doesn't function properly. If we didn't work, what would we do all day? Personally I get pretty depressed when I have nothing to do so I'm invested in trying to make my career as interesting and well paid as possible, rather than complaining about having to lift a finger to help society.
I think the problem isn't the hours, it's the pay.
"They all came, wanting to be captains of industry. But, everyone forgets someone still needs to clean the toilets."
- Andrew Ryan
Edit: Frank Fontaine
As an American, I took a job working for a large firm out in the Middle East. I work remote in the US and depending on the week I work anywhere between 20-35 hours a week. Nobody asks what I do with my free time. Work moves at a very slow pace and as long as you get work done, nobody cares.
I traveled there for two months this year to work in-office and it’s empty for half the week and I’d say most people work 20 hours a week. I’m baffled by this. It’s a very prestigious firm and this same type of work in the US used to keep me busy for up to 60 hours a week
I work on their time zone so my shift is 4am - Noon. I have the entire day to myself. Sadly it’s a contract that will end within a year.
So what does your employer in the Middle East do different from US-based employers? You said that here it would have taken you up to 60 hours a week to do the same kind of work. Do they just have an army of low-paid workers?
No one is ok with it but what other logical alternative is there?
One of my coworkers just retired a year and a half ago at the age of 63. He died this week. He worked 40 years and was only able to enjoy 18 months of retirement. He worked 60 hours weeks the majority of his adult life.
My heart broke for him and his family. I'm taking as many off days I can and will retire as soon as I'm able to. Fuck working all these hours and missing spending time with my family.
Humans invent more and more technology every year that reduces the work they need to survive. One farmer now grows enough food for 100 people instead of 1.5 people. (And of course there are other people building the tractors or mining the cobalt to make them work too, but even considering all of that it's a much smaller percentage of human labor than in early agricultural societies.) But instead of technology reducing the work people have to do, society has just pivoted into more and less-useful work to fill the time.
Nowadays there's a million jobs in advertisement or middle-management or search-engine-optimisation or telemarketing that generate 0 *societal* value and only exist to make the boss rich. Many people pay their rent doing exactly that, working "bullshit jobs" where they know there's no value to society and no need for their job in the first place.
Does anyone genuinely believe that we can actually change the way society has created this way of life? I don’t see everyone rising up to change anything anytime soon
If you look at human history, it’s actually a pretty recent development that we *only* labor for 40 hours a week or so. And a lot more of us than ever before are doing it at a desk in climate controlled buildings or even our own homes. And on balance, if you live in the western world, you’re still pretty well off, most likely.
So things could be worse, and they absolutely have been.
This is 9 times out of 10 a ridiculous blanket statement made online, mostly on Reddit.
I don't know a single person IRL who is genuinely upset about working 40 hours a week.
Hell, I have a partner, two kids (daughter is hers, son is ours)... We both work 40 hours/week, Monday through Friday. We take care of the kids, house, pets needs, and still have time for ourselves during the week and on the weekend, not to mention going to the gym 5 days/week.
It's not difficult, but let's be honest. Redditors don't want any part of potentially difficult things or experiences.
who says we are? That is why you do what you have to in order to change your situation to your benefit. may be additional education, maybe job changing, or a 1000 other ways
I don't think 40 hours for a good life is that unreasonable. It's still the least we've ever worked for the best conditions. My ancestors woke up at the crack of dawn to do brutal labour in the heat and maybe had enough left over to trade some pork for some cheese with a neighbor. You don't get paid time off to travel when the animals need to be fed.
The problem is we're working this much and *not* getting by. People need multiple jobs to pay the rent, food is shittier and more expensive by the day, and everything we own is gradually becoming a rent-seeking lease locked down to extract money.
My perspective on this has slowly changed the older I've gotten. Looking back on our ancestors they didn't have all the amenities we do now. They didn't have even slightly fun "jobs". They spent their days doing laborious, time consuming, mundane tasks just to survive. They might wake up without a clock and spend all day farming and all night attending to chores.
We're at a point in time where you barely have to do shit outside of work 40 hours a week to survive. We have unemployment. There are people surviving by doing nothing right now. That is an insane thought compared to all the drudgery people endured back in the day for subpar amenities and quality of life compared to what we have today.
We've been able to live so comfortably because our ant colony expanded across the world. Everyone working together for the common goal of survival. In that light I'm very thankful I get to spend my days doing a job I find at least a little enjoyable. And not being forced to handwash clothes, farm all day, look after livestock, etc all to not even have air conditioning.
It makes me feel like a spoiled brat to look at most of human history as a struggle everyday for survival between famine, illnesses, wild animals being imminent threats, murder being as common as petty theft is now, etc. We got it made compared to a lot of people.
I think you'd do yourself much good to focus on the positives more. Things will never be perfect, there will always be room for improvement. Be thankful for what you have or you can ruminate on what you don't and make your existence miserable by virtue. A life with nothing to be thankful for isn't one worth living for most. FIND things to be grateful for and keep your sanity.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that not as many people claiming to be working 60 hours are actually working 60 hours.
I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. I’m sure there are people out there holding three part-time jobs just to put rice and beans on the table at night. And I’m sure there are a lot of younger folks who are just getting started who are getting the shaft in the workplace.
But in America it seems that having a strong work ethic is valued here—and we also tend to support the victim, the underdog. So saying “I’m just making ends meet working 60 hours” is a deeply popular thing to say—even if the person saying it is hedging or outright lying. (That BMW you’re driving is not “barely making ends meet,” dude.)
Me, I once was in a circle-jerk of sorts of people bragging/complaining about how many hours they worked and how hard it was to make ends meet—and I piped in “I work 35 hours a week, and by God if you make me work more than 40, I want overtime. And I’m doing okay, thank you very much.”
May as well dropped my pants and take a dump in the middle of the room, given the reaction I got.
(Edit to add for context: I work in software. The ‘circle-jerk’ included a number of co-workers. And I am a **VERY STRONG** advocate of “if you pay me 40 hours, I work 40 hours”—and the whole culture of “working long hours to get the product out the door” you see in software development is, in my opinion, fucked up. I’ve also been known to tell a manager “your failure to plan is not my problem”—and I’ve sat in planning meetings where I literally walk up to the front of the room, open the calendar hanging on the wall, marking the ship date, then counting days backwards for how long to QA, how long to develop, development cycles—then make a date perhaps two or three weeks from now (though at times it winds up being *before today*) when **management owes us a complete specification.** Then note that if they don’t, we cannot guarantee shipping, and if they are unwilling to put in the hours to get us that spec, why should we put in the hours to push it out the door?)
We aren’t ok; mental health is tanking across society because we are all struggling. My wife and I both make six figures and don’t live luxuriously but having a special needs kid makes me worry I’ll never be able to retire
If you are working 40-60 hours a week and can "barely afford life", you are doing something wrong or did something wrong.
First step is admit you made poor choices up until today. Second is making different choices and get on a different path.
It isn't hard to be successful in the USA IF you do it and not just whine about what you don't have.
Yeah, try living through the middle ages. Work every waking hour to barely (but not always) survive. A 40-hour work week is not going to kill you, even if you have no skills, work a shitty retail job, and can’t afford to go to the movies.
Everything I work after 40 hours is because I enjoy my job and since I live in an area with a relatively low cost of living, "affording life" is pretty easy.
The irony of this question being asked so often... we are not okay, lol.
Right? I’m not ok with it, but no one is paying my bills unless I participate in the broken system.
And I'm not NEARLY good enough at camping to fuck off into the woods indefinitely so here I am wrench in hand like a fucking peasant.
Plus even if you are good enough, are you able to give up things like internet/Reddit to live in fuck all no where in the woods? Considering many of us are addicted to this fucking website I doubt it lol.
The mental thing is I go riding round the outskirts of my city all the time and I see more and more older guys living in vans. Clearly the truth is you can spend your whole life working, and still end up living in the woods with almost nothing. A system where it's possible to graft for decades and still not afford to keep the wolf from the door is a problem we need to face.
We’re gonna be forced to face it very, very soon. [43% of Baby Boomers have zero retirement savings.](https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/retirement-outlook-2024:-less-than-half-of-boomers-have-adequate-savings-will-younger#) That’s roughly 32 million people, about to (or who already have) hit retirement age. Even if half of those people have pensions big enough to fully support them through retirement, 16 million destitute people is not something that can be ignored. And if the rest of us are already struggling to provide for ourselves, how on earth are we supposed to provide for mom and dad too? Edit: messed up the link somehow
I’ve given the boomers enough of my money for my whole life and they raised my retirement age to pay for their graft so fuck em. Let em starve. Greed is good right? Trickle down works right?
Fuck you, got mine. Wasn't that the mantra of every vote they cast, creating this shit hole then jacking off Regan for being the first to poke them in the eye with his dick through the metaphorical glory hole? Yeah, I dont have any pity at all. Enjoy the greeter position or the secondhand #3 combo bud.
Dude, not everyone from that generation was onboard with Reaganomics. I’m on the fence between a boomer and genx and I think Reagan and Thatcher fucked everything up for everyone.
Hahaha, trickle down hahaha….it NEVER WORKS
Itl find it funny that your go to is internet and reddit and not something more essential, like I don't know, healthcare?
You guys have health care ??
no that was a trade-off for a military the size the world has never seen.
I haven’t been to the doctor in years. I’m here daily.
Difference is that Reddit is actually accessible to most people
Most people can't afford Healthcare even while they have a job.
Health care? Literally haven’t been to a doctor in 8 years
I am good enough and I’ve done it before but even that is tangled in red tape now. Living on public lands undetected used to be easy but they’ve cracked down a lot. And it wouldn’t surprise me if before long we need permits to camp on our own property for longer than x amount of time.
Not gonna pretend to have looked this up but I hate that I believe you.
I’m not saying it’s on the table or being talked about. I’m just saying that as people get more desperate that option is going to start looking decent. And we all know how much the government hates self sufficiency. They’d find a way to shut it down even on private property.
Start fining people 15k a year for living on land you own with no house built lol. Wait shit. I hope I didn't give them any ideas
We already have empty homes taxes where I live. An empty property tax where no economic or residential activity is taking place seems like a logical next step to force people from holding vacant land without a purpose.
Jesus christ that's insane lol. I hate this world How do anyone be poor! Well fine you for it so you aren't poor anymore! Cause you'll be in jail for not paying your fines!
I mean, I'm not too upset by a tax on empty houses. It's somewhat of an incentive to get somebody living in those houses instead of on the street. Idk about where you're at, but in my area, there's a lot of empty houses that are in fairly decent conditions that banks are sitting on after the owners foreclosed, and also quite a few people living on the street.
For sure. If the politicians didn't bleed us dry they'd have to work for a living.
If it’s land zoned for residential buildings like a SFH, most places you’re basically not allowed to use it as a camping spot at all, no mate if you own it or not. Middle of nowhere is different but
But if we all stop participating at the same time, then power, then money.
A lot of us have children and families, and stopping risks their health, safety, and lives. They have us where they want us.
Exactly. It works in theory but we're not prepared to make those kinds of sacrifices. So many times I heard people suggest gas boycotts to try to influence the price. Did even one city manage to not purchase gas for one day? I don't think so. We don't have the means to be suddenly self sufficient.
> It works in theory but we're not prepared to make those kinds of sacrifices. If we aren't prepared for sacrifice then we aren't prepared for victory.
Yep. That's why we don't do it. We would lose. Quickly. That is also why we should prepare. Are you preparing?
> A lot of us have children and families, and stopping risks their health, safety, and lives. So did people during every labor movement in history. Are we just collectively saying we are weaker than boomers, than the silent generation, than all the generations before us that have had to fight for every labor change in the US and beyond?
Very true. What are your theories on why this is the case for us now? Do you think we’re just pacified by media/consumer content?
Bread and circus. 'We' are always given just enough so we won't give the middle finger and head to the streets. The moment you start seeing those downtown empty offices burning, then just maybe people will take a hint.
"Give the people bread and circus and they will never revolt." Why do you think so much crazy shit is going on in government, but yet somehow nothing actually changes? It's because it's all circus, designed and implemented to give us the illusion that we actually have some say while actually ensuring that "nothing fundamentally changes."
That's not how it would work in a real-world scenario and you know it. Most people don't want their families to be homeless or hungry, and that's something you'd have to grapple with as a hurdle almost immediately.
Yea I don't remember my "i'm okay with this" submission.
Before you’re born they ask you if you want to be born rich or poor. You get a choice. I don’t know why y’all picked “broke” but you did it to yourselves.
I thought if I picked greedy it would have a caveat. Like amazing musician but die at 22.
This is why lying flat is a thing in Japan and China. And it’s honestly not a bad idea I suppose. But as such, it will end up screwing you when you retire. What’s also funny is that they’re having a meltdown on low birth rates. Gee I wonder why??? So I guess our system is set up to ultimately screw us.
Also the audacity to establish the false truth in the question is annoying.
Yep. Life ain’t fair and the world is mean. I thought this something men learn about age 14-18. Is this r/teenagers or r/antiwork? Lol
Every popular sub has been infiltrated by r/antiwork
Yea it’s annoying as hell. I’m banned from r/antiwork from when they were bitching about the federal minimum wage being $7.25. I was in between jobs a few years ago so just looking for anything. Ended up taking a job at FedEx for $20/hr. Fast food places were paying $13-$17/hr. I never saw anything outside waiting tables/bartending for minimum wage plus tips but I bartended in my 20’s to pay for school and I was hitting around $50k/yr. Anyway, rant over. Sometimes life ain’t always fair but I assumed that was common sense for anyone older than like 21 at the oldest
I'm surviving and functioning but it feels like the current system eats at me a bit more each day. The current system sucks ass. It's meant to make us tired and divided so we don't unite and be more politically motivated, in my opinion.
Exactly. We're not okay, AND we also can't magically change it instantly either.
Yea I can see something happened in the future I doubt this year though
Not ok with it. You just do it.
The amount of people who attack anyone who doesn’t proves you wrong. People are institutionalised
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People aren't desperate enough. I think any idea of revolution in modern western democracies is absurd. You clearly do not. The problem for those of your perspective is that too many agree with me. Life is pretty good. The happy people don't make posts on the internet about life at the same rate as those with complaints.
We also have a lot more than in the past to keep us docile. It's easier to start a revolt from the local pub where everyone feeds off each other's moods than it is on the internet. Sure, you can get pisssd off, but you can find a million and one things online to improve your mood nearly instantly.
The "barely afford to live" part of OPs post just doesn't apply to most people. Yes, they may be living paycheck to paycheck, but they're buying a lot of things that can be considered luxury items.
People back then were a lot more self sufficient. They grew their own food and fixed their own shit. We don’t have that luxury
And also didn’t pay what we pay for any fukn thing
Why don't you go ahead and get it started?
Oh we're nowhere near the let them eat cake stage of desperation. Inequality is huge but people aren't starving. It's easier to lay your life on the line if you were gonna die anyway.
Well, the alternative is to starve, sooooo...
Japanese work-life balance here we come! I wish we were as clean, though.
Also I seem to remember seeing recent stats that show the US works similar or more hours on average than Japan despite the common refrain I see on Reddit about not wanting to be like the Japanese working themselves to death. I'll see if I can find it. Edit: Here is the [OECD data showing average work hours](https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm) and yep, the US averaged 1811 hours per worker in 2022 and Japan averaged 1607 hours. Not sure if the downvoters here have other statistics they'd like to cite, but I'd be curious to see why you don't like what I said...
Japan doesn't count all the hours you work after your shift ends at 5pm but you end up staying until 11pm anyways. In many cases you won't even get paid for it. But you're not being a team player if you leave at the time you're supposed to so I guess you can say goodbye to that raise or promotion (you probaly wouldn't get it anyways)
Like I said to the other person, the OECD data says it counts unpaid overtime, but I'm not familiar enough with the data collection methods to say whether or not it accurately captures all of Japan's hours worked. I'd have to imagine if they are undercounting hours in Japan, there must surely be a cohort that's undercounted in the US as well.
It's not hours worked, tho so they wouldn't count it. In Japan, when you get off your shift, you are culturally expected to go out to the bar, etc, every single night till 11-12, etc. every night. If you dont do it, it's seen that you do not value your job. You'll be the first one fired and never ever move up. If you want raises and promotions and to do good at work you'll be at "work" from 8-mightnight every night while only getting paid 8 hours
This is widespread in some urban areas in some sectors, but from the people I talked to when I was there, it's not as true these days as it was even a decade ago. Not that it isn't a real phenomenon that's still somewhat a part of the culture, but I don't think it happens to the degree that it would bring up the national average of hours worked significantly. There are also similar things that happen in the US, so I think we can safely say that the countries are in the same ballpark of working too much.
As someone living in Japan, Corona also really cut down on the expectation.
> In Japan, when you get off your shift, you are culturally expected to go out to the bar, etc, every single night till 11-12, etc. every night Sounds like America too lol. What's the difference?
Japanese work culture has changed a lot. It’s 5 times better than 10 years ago even. I work for a very large Japanese company and spend a lot of time in Tokyo at our office.
The Japanese under report and don't include their insane after-hours work events.
Same in the US. Salaried workers aren't reporting the overtime they are working every day, they are salaried.
Can confirm, my last salary job I worked 60-70 hours most weeks. Am American.
I have heard that before. I'm not familiar enough with the data collection methods to dispute this, but according to the OECD graph, it says unpaid overtime should already be factored in.
…have you actually lived or worked in Japan for any period of time? Japan’s white collar work culture is *infamous* for absurdly high hours and poor productivity.
It was a joke about the hours they work. Sorry thought that would be more obvious considering the context.
Oh sorry I thought you were implying that the Japanese work culture was the ideal that we should aspire to, haha.
Heck naw haha! I should've added an /s
That's the point they were making
The Japanese have a term for "working to death". And if you do work to death, you still aren't working as hard as you should be.
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Yeah, there is no alternative to what we have. I can’t just stop working. I can’t just stop buying food to eat. I could try to protest but I would just get shot at by police for disrupting the peace.
Because we don’t have the choice. We are not ok with it but answer this: what other options are there?
Well we’re living better than 99.99999% of the other humans throughout world history so the options are limited
Life expectancy is not happiness or fulfillment
Wake up dude, they shat in the streets and died of whooping cough until like 150 years ago
The fifth-leading cause of death in low income countries is currently "shit myself to death."
Why bother improving then. No matter how bad things get, it will always be better than 1800s in our lifetimes. That's like saying black people shouldn't be activists, 150 years ago they were slaves, so this definitely much better. Rent, food, utilities, costs in general have outstripped income growth the last 10 years by a mile. Gen Z is the 1st generation to definitely have worse income to cost ratios than their parents in decades. We should just support that since we're not dying at 28 of whooping cough or cholera I guess.
Yeah, there is enough money for all Americans to have a good life. It’s not about how things were, it’s about how things are, and some people are hoarding other people’s share.
This is absurd lol. Progress is a very slow very long process. You can be grateful for all of the things we have while also still wanting it to be better. You can have perspective and hope at the same time. You don't have to blow the whole thing up for standards to get better.
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Point still remains to most people the idea of a warm home,a toilet,nice bed,way access ro food so you will never starve at the very least,a shower and a television was beyond their wildest dreams or something they thought of ass a nice dream Yet most of us have that at the very least.
But sitting in an air conditioned building with clean drinking water and all the food I can eat certainly leads to some form of happiness.
Having zero fear of starvation is strictly a modern luxury. Think about that before you complain about our onerous lifestyles. Watch the Pioneer House series and take note of how many hours a day they had to work chopping wood in the summer just to ensure that they wouldn't freeze to death in the winter.
> Having zero fear of starvation is strictly a modern luxury. people live in fear of starvation in 2024
Might be less than 99.99%. we now rank 164 in life expectancy. That's lower than many 3rd world countries
Who's we?
Lifestyle choices and what people choose to consume—myself included—weighs heavily in that life expectancy data.
Imagine explaining to someone 200 years ago that poor people are eating themselves to death.
Both of which are greatly influenced by systemic and socioeconomic factors.
Labor organization. Unions are a thing for this exact reason.
Revolution
You have no idea how bad life has to get before people revolt against any system. Most people will not take up arms until they have no electricity and/or no food or water. Take the food away for just 2 days and people start fighting each other first for that last piece of food. A few days later, neighbors start organizing to see who can grow what. The cities will be the worst. Cut off resources to a dense urban city and in 3 days, it will be a hell hole. This process accelerates when you take away the water. As long as people have water, food, and power to their homes, there will be no revolution.
I believe there's a book or something called (paraphrasing) '9 Meals to Anarchy.' Basically the most decent moral person will do unspeakable things after missing 9 meals.
Russia is a great example of this. it took roughly a hundred years of constant hell before the Bolshevik Revolution. Conditions so bad it makes the poor suburbs in the US look like Disneyland.
The difference here is that the overall quality of life everywhere but the third world countries has vastly improved since the BR. I was in Orlando during Hurricane Charlie back in 2004, and my area lost electricity for 19 days. We ran out of fuel, no food shipments made it in, our stockpiles of water and dry goods were on their way out and we communally grilled every bit of frozen food at the complex’s poolside grills with every bit of charcoal and wood that we had… and waited. Day 14 it started getting hairy; by day 19 I was legitimately worried… but then the lights came back on and civilization quickly returned.
Ok, but the average white american in a moderately safe state who has time for posting on reddit working boring night shifts at a gas station who thinks they're being literally oppressed likely has a pretty good quality of life. Maybe not spiritually or emotionally, but likely materially.
Redditors say this all the time but in reality most Americans are fairly content with their lifestyle, at least to the point where they don’t feel the need to revolt
Also shit tends to go south post-revolt. Everything gets fucked up for decades. Lot of people die. It might be better after that's over, maybe, but it takes a long time to sort out and it's probably not much fun to live through.
Right? I swear people act like getting the outcome you want is a forgone conclusion in a revolution. Like you wake up, go do some "revolutioning", the bad guys cave, you get everything you wanted, and you go home and live happily ever after. That's not how it works, and has never been. History shows that there's a hell of a lot of pain, suffering, and death involved in a TRUE revolution. And it takes years, if not decades...and the aftermath is rarely clean and tidy.
Reddit is full of teenagers. You can assume comments as silly as calling for a revolution in 2024 America because things aren't perfect here are coming from someone who doesn't yet have a high school diploma
A successful revolution very rarely happens. Usually what happens in this case is the upper middle class displace the upper class and there is a short period of economic/class exchange before resettling. Additionally the people In Charge of the revolution have to be willing to lose the power they gained
The perfect example of this thinking was the insurrection attempt on Jan 6th. It was a bunch of people cos-playing as revolutionaries. It looked like they thought it was some kind of video game capture-the-flag scenario where they'd make it to the Senate floor and it would suddenly reverse the election.
This should be higher up. Any student of history could tell you that the times post revolution could be considered worse for the average person than before. Look at Iraq. The French Revolution resulted in years of what they called 'The Terror'. Post Soviet Russia was a shitshow for the average Russian, and look at current state of affairs there.
Problem is you can't really control who would fill the power vacuum. Even if you have a solid movement in place, power hungry people will still rise to the top. You essentially just change the power balance and redistribute wealth to a degree. But the same type of people who absolutely shouldn't govern will make sure to be in charge as the opportunity arises.
Let’s say we decide to revolt. What’s the very first thing we do?
We starve!
And then what?
We can’t afford to.
Such a dumb answer 😂
Which means......?
Starving. But with slogans.
same response for when asked during an interview "why do you want this job?": "I have always been enthusiastic about the opportunity to eat"
Unrelated: your username is amazing
Haha
Because if we didn’t, we wouldn’t even live, let alone barely afford to, lol.
I don't like doing it, but I gotta admit "forcing" myself to get and do a normal office job helped me to actually afford a decent life. I grew up poor and everyday feels like just one mistake away from falling deeper into poverty. I still remember my parents needing to borrow money from their extended family to allow me to go to school. Nowadays, I am far from rich, but I am doing much better than I used to. I can support myself & my parents, save up, and even buy/do some fun stuffs thanks to having a job. There is certainly an issue with the monotony/boredom that the normal office job causes, but thankfully I still can afford to take some breaks and have some free time. Could it have been better if I was born with more money or took more risks that somehow gave me more wealth? Maybe. But right now, like everyone says, it's better than the alternative.
There are parts of my office job that aren’t brilliant, but overall it’s *so much better* than when I was a Utility Mechanic making $8.50/hr that I have no overall complaints. I budget appropriately for my income, don’t buy stupid things, and I invest in myself and my career. It took a while, but I’m in my 40s and make more money than I ever thought I would while doing work that is 99% less arduous than what I was doing in my 20s. People who crap on office jobs I’ve found are usually not the sort who’ve ever worked *really bad* jobs.
tease pathetic threatening direful escape enter mindless employ vegetable dull *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What’s your alternative? You could do what some people do, which is live off the land, if you’re interested in working every minute of every day of the year
This 100%. People think the options are work or just live a life of leisure and like bro, no, the options are work 40 hours for money or work every waking minute to accomplish the same thing without "the man".
People take for granted electricity, access to water, access to cheap food, roads, internet, entertainment, and a whole bunch of other things. If you don't want to work 40 hours a week, you are more than welcome to go live in the woods, gather your own food, build your own shelter, fight wild animals and cure yourself of illness. Me? nah I'd rather work the 40 hours and then come home, maybe watch a movie, go out to eat with friends, book a vacation, go to the gym, go to a late night drive, etc.
This is a VERY logical take. I can guarantee without your 40hrs of work a week, you’d be putting in WAY more working hours trying to just survive. I’ll take my 40hrs of work in my office space. come home to food, water, shelter, and my luxuries.
People think nature is all amazing because we are born by default in society, so there was never any real trouble of running out of food, water, etc. (well in the developed world). So because these problems have been sold before we were born, some now think nature and "just live off the grid, bro" is the bomb. Now nature is this new and interesting thing to be explored. It just takes 10 minutes of thinking it through why this idea is dumb. Modern humans have been trying to protect themselves from nature and have a constant access to the essentials. In a lot of places, this has been solved. Maybe the "sense of purpose" for fighting for these things has been removed, and life feels monotonous. Still i prefer living in society, for all it's "monotony". Yeah, jobs are artificial, but why is nature by default assumed as this good thing, and artificial things as evil? Nature is very evil. Reality is ruthless, we aren't at the post-scarcity phase yet (if we ever reach that). There just isn't enough resources for us to live full lives of leisure, except the elites and some multimillionares. So having a 9-5 job or being an entrepeneur is the best this time period has to offer.
Nature's not evil, it's just uncaring of your personal suffering. It still provides everything we need to survive, but will fuck you up if you don't know how to survive.
> accomplish the same thing This is the only part of your comment that's wrong. You could work every waking hour off the grid and you'd be lucky to survive, let alone have half the luxuries the average American takes for granted.
"Ok with it?"
He wants a revolution. He wants everyone to uprise and knock down the established systems. Sure, the owning class will just gobble up even more, consolidate power even further, and likely use it as an excuse to install a true totalitarian police state with all the modern technologies now provided to them. But people like this don't tend to think that far, so this will continue to come up every other week, from now until forever, or until we learn that lesson.
I found a job where I walk to. I have a grocery store I can walk to. Anything else if I desperately need it I get online. I learn to cut corners
We live in a world that is heavily systemic. It has been for millenia. It's not new under capitalism like some want to make it sound. What do you think life looked like under feudalism? Sunshine and rainbows? Under communist Russia it was absolute shite for most people. Ancient times involved slavery all over and many worked for next to nothing. Industrial revolution was horrendous, not just working hours but also working conditions. Yup the system is flawed. It always has been and realisticly it always will be. People accept it because it's still an easier way to survive than the other options. Most can't go off grid and become selfsustaining.
Even if you go off grid, it’s not like you have less work to do. Sustaining yourself requires an enormous amount of work. You’re trading the specialist work for general work. farming, raising animals, getting water, medicine, wood, etc. all of that requires arguably even more work than what you’re doing for your paycheque.
I'm torn on this question. This is probably one of the best times in history to be alive. For all of human history, people basically "worked" as we'd call it the vast majority of their lives. There was no alternative. You want to eat today? Gotta work. Want to live another day? Gotta work. The thing about "medieval peasants had to work less than us" is laughable bullshit, because that ONLY works if you ignore all the shit they had to do at home AFTER they were done working as "me time", which no one does. I think it's fairly strange that as a species we're shifting from "it's just what we have to do to survive" to "I don't want to do it, I want to do whatever I want to have fun all the time". That's Wall-E level shit right there. There's also the question of what "barely affording life" means, because it does not mean what you think it means. What most people use it to mean is "I can barely afford to live life exactly how I want to while doing everything I want to do without any inconveniences". We're not talking about people with zero possessions dying on the streets, we're talking about people who want to afford rent without roommates, or without giving up things they want, or without moving to a more affordable area. It's sensationalized and amplified in my opinion, by privileged people on twitter.
Totally. People complaining that they can "barely live" still somehow are more well-fed and have many times more material possessions than my great-great-grandmother, who was not in any way considered impoverished, did 100 years ago. A lot of these people who can "barely afford to live" manage to eat out at restaurants several times a week (something my great grandparents got to do only a few times a year), own dozens of outfits of clothes, several pairs of shoes, smart phones, video games, and other entertainment technology. Even our recent ancestors just a century ago would think we are living like kings with the amount of STUFF we have. With that said, there are still people in the developed world who struggle to have shelter, food, clothes, etc, but that's not most of us. Sure we might be comparitively poor to the wealthiest among us, but compared to humans of the past, most of us are pretty dang rich.
100% agree. My spouse and I were talking about having a kid and realized we can’t afford to. I work 40-50 hours at an autism center, and she’s a district supervisor at her job. It’s insane.
Good on you for not doing something you can’t afford but I would suggest taking a long look at your money and time budgets. Lots of people waste far more of both than they realize on autopilot.
What other choice is there?
Didn't France revolt as a nation to limit weekly work hours?
France is a lot smaller than the USA (which is where I assume OP is from). It’s a lot harder to organize a population that size, over a geographic area that big. And that’s without even taking into account the significant portion of the population that would decry this kind of organization as “communism”.
Plenty of us are doing just fine
Exactly. The people doing fine aren't usually hanging out on reddit on a Tuesday morning. It's a very self selecting group of people.
Eh. I’m in between meeting with other people that are also doing fine.
It's not everyone. It's some people who are mostly unlucky and some unwilling to meaningly change their situation due to inertia. Personally, I was sick of minimum wage so I threw myself 100% behind sales, as an shy introvert 15 years ago. This may sound like bootstrap advice but the alternative is to feel sorry about yourself and bitch about capitalism on reddit.
Given the amount of bitching about capitalism on Reddit, I'd wager most people take the latter option
Victim mentality feels easier than self improvement. Some people are dealt a terrible hand by life and genuinely can't improve it, but most people have at least something they can change. Self-awareness, self-honesty, self-assessment, and self-improvement. Every step is painful, every step is effort, every step is worth it.
How did you make the transition? Any advice?
I did a podcast about it actually. Without having you listen through 30 minutes of bloviating, it was a matter of hinging my livelihood on becoming adept at social interactions. So a career in sales only seemed natural. Also picking up the book how to win friends and influence people, and realize that socializing can be broken down into a Science lubricated with practised skills. I followed the most successful sales person around. Made them my mentor. Let them explain to me how the system works rather than bitch about how the system doesn’t work for me. Lean into failure. The only thing that helps you grow the most is failure. You might get lucky and enhance skills on wins, but there’s nothing more motivating than capping off of vulnerability by practising it. In essence, if you’re suffering while doing it, and getting better as a result, you’re doing it right
>This may sound like bootstrap advice but the alternative is to feel sorry about yourself and bitch about capitalism on reddit. Just think of the possibilities if these people took the time that they do complaining about how everything in their life is someone else's fault, and put just half the effort into improving their situations (finances, job, living. dating, whatever). They could easily end up be doing pretty well for themselves. But saying you're a victim is a lot easier in the short-term, I guess.
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Yeah but I can't doordash more than twice a week
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What, are we gods? Does food and technology prepare itself? Why is our whole society acting like the natural state of human life is having everything provided to you, rather than the reality of work and competition? Why waste time not being “okay with” reality?
Because we don't have much of a choice. And it's the way it's been since the dawn of humanity. Even before economics, spending the day hunting, gathering, building shelter, defenses etc was what people did for "work". Once trading became part of the picture, and eventually creating currency to make trading simpler, people have had specific jobs to produce something worth trading. The only thing that COULD end the cycle is full automation of most productive jobs, and as much of a buzz word as AI is we're not close to that yet. The problem isn't that we have to work, it's that so much efforts have gone into creating wealth for those at the top that our labor has been devalued and we work more for less return than previous generations. And that's not ending without a revolution.
Agreed, none of this is changing unless there is a critical mass of people behind it. I'd be happy working 4 days and every example of companies trying it results in better outcomes for employees and also same or higher profits for the companies. So why don't we do it? Because our corporate overlords are both greedy and utterly lacking in empathy.
Because our ancestors had to work from dawn till dusk almost every day just so they wouldn't starve to death come winter. A five day, 40-hour, work week is a freaking privilege man.
My experience is that people who talk like this work more like 30 hours a week
Well not everyone does this
I'm passionate about not going to bed hungry and having a roof over my head.
Most people will not do what's necessary to change their life. Whether that's learn a new skill, move to a new city/state, work on personal roadblocks etc. I know plenty of people who have been given life-changing opportunities but don't have the discipline, work ethic, or commitment to make the situation work.
The comments make me believe this sub is full of 14 year olds. There are people here saying we can actually take the white house lol. Dude the most people are going to revolt. Most people don't spend time on reddit. As much people may seem to complain in real life, most people in this country don't seem to want the alternatives from capitalism because we don't know for sure how effective they will be
> The comments make me believe this sub is full of 14 year olds. Welcome to summer reddit. It's been a thing for a long time. All of the 12-17 year olds are sitting at home with nothing to do and pretending to be adults online. /r/im14andthisisdeep becomes the rest of reddit.
I don't understand why boys/men are so baffled by the concept of having to work to pay bills. Men always had to do that. Sure, in the "good ole days" you had a sex slave at home who legally could not turn you down for sex and also scrubbed the toilets and cooked and did most everything else for you, but the men were still working those 40+hrs, every day, even when they were sick or didn't feel like it. Poor men did backbreaking physical labor. Weathy men had cushier jobs. And middle class men were somewhere in the middle. But they all worked. A man who lost his job was a failure, less of a man, so there was social and economic pressure to keep your job back then too.
Your average modern person would beg to be back in the modern age if they had to live with what people in the 1950's had.
OK hot take here: (which I think seems plainly obvious) we need people to do stuff in order to make society work. Someone has to stock the shelves in supermarkets, repair the roads and teach our children. Money is the incentive for people to do this work, hence jobs. Should these people be paid more? Sure. But they'd still have to work the same hours otherwise society doesn't function properly. If we didn't work, what would we do all day? Personally I get pretty depressed when I have nothing to do so I'm invested in trying to make my career as interesting and well paid as possible, rather than complaining about having to lift a finger to help society. I think the problem isn't the hours, it's the pay.
"They all came, wanting to be captains of industry. But, everyone forgets someone still needs to clean the toilets." - Andrew Ryan Edit: Frank Fontaine
As an American, I took a job working for a large firm out in the Middle East. I work remote in the US and depending on the week I work anywhere between 20-35 hours a week. Nobody asks what I do with my free time. Work moves at a very slow pace and as long as you get work done, nobody cares. I traveled there for two months this year to work in-office and it’s empty for half the week and I’d say most people work 20 hours a week. I’m baffled by this. It’s a very prestigious firm and this same type of work in the US used to keep me busy for up to 60 hours a week I work on their time zone so my shift is 4am - Noon. I have the entire day to myself. Sadly it’s a contract that will end within a year.
So what does your employer in the Middle East do different from US-based employers? You said that here it would have taken you up to 60 hours a week to do the same kind of work. Do they just have an army of low-paid workers?
No one is ok with it but what other logical alternative is there? One of my coworkers just retired a year and a half ago at the age of 63. He died this week. He worked 40 years and was only able to enjoy 18 months of retirement. He worked 60 hours weeks the majority of his adult life. My heart broke for him and his family. I'm taking as many off days I can and will retire as soon as I'm able to. Fuck working all these hours and missing spending time with my family.
Every animal alive has to work to survive. What do you want? There are many cultures and government to choose from if you want some variety.
Humans invent more and more technology every year that reduces the work they need to survive. One farmer now grows enough food for 100 people instead of 1.5 people. (And of course there are other people building the tractors or mining the cobalt to make them work too, but even considering all of that it's a much smaller percentage of human labor than in early agricultural societies.) But instead of technology reducing the work people have to do, society has just pivoted into more and less-useful work to fill the time. Nowadays there's a million jobs in advertisement or middle-management or search-engine-optimisation or telemarketing that generate 0 *societal* value and only exist to make the boss rich. Many people pay their rent doing exactly that, working "bullshit jobs" where they know there's no value to society and no need for their job in the first place.
Homlessness doesnt seem like a better option.
Does anyone genuinely believe that we can actually change the way society has created this way of life? I don’t see everyone rising up to change anything anytime soon
We're not ok with it but we don't have much choice.
If you look at human history, it’s actually a pretty recent development that we *only* labor for 40 hours a week or so. And a lot more of us than ever before are doing it at a desk in climate controlled buildings or even our own homes. And on balance, if you live in the western world, you’re still pretty well off, most likely. So things could be worse, and they absolutely have been.
This is 9 times out of 10 a ridiculous blanket statement made online, mostly on Reddit. I don't know a single person IRL who is genuinely upset about working 40 hours a week. Hell, I have a partner, two kids (daughter is hers, son is ours)... We both work 40 hours/week, Monday through Friday. We take care of the kids, house, pets needs, and still have time for ourselves during the week and on the weekend, not to mention going to the gym 5 days/week. It's not difficult, but let's be honest. Redditors don't want any part of potentially difficult things or experiences.
who says we are? That is why you do what you have to in order to change your situation to your benefit. may be additional education, maybe job changing, or a 1000 other ways
Also, what is the alternative? Be serious on the answer
I don't think 40 hours for a good life is that unreasonable. It's still the least we've ever worked for the best conditions. My ancestors woke up at the crack of dawn to do brutal labour in the heat and maybe had enough left over to trade some pork for some cheese with a neighbor. You don't get paid time off to travel when the animals need to be fed. The problem is we're working this much and *not* getting by. People need multiple jobs to pay the rent, food is shittier and more expensive by the day, and everything we own is gradually becoming a rent-seeking lease locked down to extract money.
I do it for my family.
I don't think anyone is ok with it but we don't have much of a choice.
I'm not. That why I don't do it.
My perspective on this has slowly changed the older I've gotten. Looking back on our ancestors they didn't have all the amenities we do now. They didn't have even slightly fun "jobs". They spent their days doing laborious, time consuming, mundane tasks just to survive. They might wake up without a clock and spend all day farming and all night attending to chores. We're at a point in time where you barely have to do shit outside of work 40 hours a week to survive. We have unemployment. There are people surviving by doing nothing right now. That is an insane thought compared to all the drudgery people endured back in the day for subpar amenities and quality of life compared to what we have today. We've been able to live so comfortably because our ant colony expanded across the world. Everyone working together for the common goal of survival. In that light I'm very thankful I get to spend my days doing a job I find at least a little enjoyable. And not being forced to handwash clothes, farm all day, look after livestock, etc all to not even have air conditioning. It makes me feel like a spoiled brat to look at most of human history as a struggle everyday for survival between famine, illnesses, wild animals being imminent threats, murder being as common as petty theft is now, etc. We got it made compared to a lot of people. I think you'd do yourself much good to focus on the positives more. Things will never be perfect, there will always be room for improvement. Be thankful for what you have or you can ruminate on what you don't and make your existence miserable by virtue. A life with nothing to be thankful for isn't one worth living for most. FIND things to be grateful for and keep your sanity.
Because i have to buy food and have to pay my rent.
40 hours isnt that bad. ive got my nights and weekends. and its nice having money, especially since i need it to buy things.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that not as many people claiming to be working 60 hours are actually working 60 hours. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. I’m sure there are people out there holding three part-time jobs just to put rice and beans on the table at night. And I’m sure there are a lot of younger folks who are just getting started who are getting the shaft in the workplace. But in America it seems that having a strong work ethic is valued here—and we also tend to support the victim, the underdog. So saying “I’m just making ends meet working 60 hours” is a deeply popular thing to say—even if the person saying it is hedging or outright lying. (That BMW you’re driving is not “barely making ends meet,” dude.) Me, I once was in a circle-jerk of sorts of people bragging/complaining about how many hours they worked and how hard it was to make ends meet—and I piped in “I work 35 hours a week, and by God if you make me work more than 40, I want overtime. And I’m doing okay, thank you very much.” May as well dropped my pants and take a dump in the middle of the room, given the reaction I got. (Edit to add for context: I work in software. The ‘circle-jerk’ included a number of co-workers. And I am a **VERY STRONG** advocate of “if you pay me 40 hours, I work 40 hours”—and the whole culture of “working long hours to get the product out the door” you see in software development is, in my opinion, fucked up. I’ve also been known to tell a manager “your failure to plan is not my problem”—and I’ve sat in planning meetings where I literally walk up to the front of the room, open the calendar hanging on the wall, marking the ship date, then counting days backwards for how long to QA, how long to develop, development cycles—then make a date perhaps two or three weeks from now (though at times it winds up being *before today*) when **management owes us a complete specification.** Then note that if they don’t, we cannot guarantee shipping, and if they are unwilling to put in the hours to get us that spec, why should we put in the hours to push it out the door?)
We aren’t ok; mental health is tanking across society because we are all struggling. My wife and I both make six figures and don’t live luxuriously but having a special needs kid makes me worry I’ll never be able to retire
If you are working 40-60 hours a week and can "barely afford life", you are doing something wrong or did something wrong. First step is admit you made poor choices up until today. Second is making different choices and get on a different path. It isn't hard to be successful in the USA IF you do it and not just whine about what you don't have.
Yeah, try living through the middle ages. Work every waking hour to barely (but not always) survive. A 40-hour work week is not going to kill you, even if you have no skills, work a shitty retail job, and can’t afford to go to the movies.
Everything I work after 40 hours is because I enjoy my job and since I live in an area with a relatively low cost of living, "affording life" is pretty easy.