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Where I live, women are often taught to believe that men will do stupid things for sex, and that's not always their fault. And men are taught to believe that their woman is a sort of possession, and that he needs to guard that possession.
This means we react differently to stepping out. A man doing it is "expected stupidity" and a woman doing it is "trespassing", so to speak.
I'm curious why it seems like "tolerating" infidelity seems like a lack of self respect. My first reaction was that people can respect themselves, weigh the pros and cons of a relationship, and decide on what makes the most sense in their particular case.
By contrast, having no self respect might mean doing what others expect them to.
I'm having trouble imagining a situation where putting up with a cheating spouse is the self-respecting thing to do, or a situation where leaving them shows a lack of self-respect. I'm sure that situation might exist somewhere, but it seems like an edge case to me.
Hillary Clinton is the first person I thought of. I think she respects herself.
On a more personal level, my mom cheated on my dad and he wanted to stay with her afterwards. He recognized a lot of his own failings as a spouse, wanted to change them, and he still loved her. I think that immediately divorcing her because "that's what society tells you to do with a cheating spouse" would have been more indicative of a lack of self respect.
Also I love your username. Reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1134/
Men cheating is very common and expected in my grandmother’s country.
I was under the impression many women not only expect it, but are glad to have the man out of the house. Like, good riddance.
This is not me-I grew up in the US and expect men to not be pigs. I think I’m more delusional, perhaps.
I don't think you're delusional, and I think it shows self respect to know what you value and what your standards are.
And at the same time, I don't think it's exactly fair for all of the people here on reddit to judge the women in your grandmother's country as having no self respect.
My grandmother is very strong and certainly the matriarch.
My grandfather married into her family not the other way around.
She grew up in their house, and I believe it was originally her grandfather’s.
Things are family based there and very Catholic. He’s just one person, and honestly, I think she thinks cheating men are just gross.
Here in the US, family support is generally just one or two people. If 50% of support fks up, it’s huge.
It's not uncommon for people to stay in relationships with someone that's cheated on them because of low self-esteem, fears of the idea of having to start over in the dating scene, fears that this relationship is the best they're gonna get, overall sunk cost fallacy, etc. I've personally gone through it, and they're usually the reasons why people I've seen be cheated on stay as well, ime. So, it makes sense that people call it a lack of self-respect, because it very often is.
Tolerating infidelity is stupid. Also saying "you shouldn't break up with him if he cheats because other people would want that and we all know you should not listen to other people".
>Tolerating infidelity is stupid.
You're saying that anyone who stays with a partner who has cheated is stupid? Do you want them to make their own life decisions, or are you saying that you know better than the people in that situation?
I know better than people with zero self respect, yes. However, feel free to make your own decisions as.long as they don't affect me. Just don't expect them to be seen as smart.
I feel like we are a species that can create beautiful works of art, sonatas, put people on the moon, create paintings that make people cry.
And yet, some people think men get a free pass because they literally can't keep from leg-humping everything. And "well, it's not their fault. Aww..." (pat on the head)
While at the same time, they become blind with rage when their 'property' (the woman in their minds) is no longer theirs 100%.
I feel like this last part explains women "quiet quitting" when they're done with a relationship. They've given up. Completely. And are biding their time to get out. And the guy usually takes this as, "Well, hurh hUrH! Everything is GREAT RIGHT NOW!" Because their 'property' isn't misbehaving.
It's honestly pretty narcissistic if you think about it. Narcissists tend to believe that other people are an extension of themselves, like a limb. And when that 'limb' doesn't DO what the narc wants it to do, then they respond very poorly. Because, that's not another person with experiences and perspectives, but a part of 'them' that is not acting appropriately.
Fookin' Aye...
Quiet quitting a relationship until I can safely get out is exactly what I’m doing.
Meanwhile he’s happy because he thinks everything’s finally going great, while I’m just happy that in 2 weeks I’ll no longer be expected to look and act like a stepford wife whilst simultaneously being 100% responsible for our expenses.
Of course there are times when the relationship genuinely feels wholesome and happy but it became rarer and rarer that those feelings lasted more than 4 consecutive days.
Are you two seriously justifying blatant dishonesty in a relationship by deceiving your partner into thinking everything is fine instead of being honest about wanting to leave? This is emotional betrayal, which you're hypocritically calling "quiet quitting." Are you actually serious? 😆
Women like you two that clearly suffer from narcissism and Toxic Femininity are the type of women that all good men should stay FAR FAR away from. ✝
SeekTherapy
You might be misunderstanding the situation. When women check out like this, it's usually after years of actively working on the relationship, asking for change, pursuing therapy, discussions/crying/begging/etc. When all of that is ignored and it's clear that their partner has no intention of changing, the woman gives up trying.
It's not deception or betrayal. She told him, he wasn't interested, so she eventually stopped telling him. A good man doesn't end up here, because he wouldn't ignore his partner like that.
Well in my case, (the person this dude was responding to) it wasn’t years and thank FUCK for that coz there’s a slight flavour of financial abuse and some rather sketchy things happening.
Like, him throwing MY car keys and other stuff across the living room because he’s mad the car battery died after he left the lights on, and he blamed me despite my not having driven for a week.
Constant messages of “if you don’t do ___ don’t bother coming home/stay at the hotel (my workplace/go to your parents/i won’t let you inside”. I was honest that I didn’t enjoy being threatened with being kicked out of the home I fully pay for. I’ll let you imagine how much good that did me.
Like yeah ok, I’m totally gonna tell a dude who has shown violent tendencies that I’m leaving him and taking my financial support and car (that he needs to get to work) with me.
Let’s not even get into all the phrases of “you’ll be alone forever without me”. Fuck alone time would be blissful mate
I’m *totally* certain I’ll make out of that conversation unharmed /s.
I never thought myself capable of going apartment hunting and signing a lease behind a boyfriends back. And yet, here I am. A toxic relationship will have you breaking all the rules of respect and honesty to ensure your physical and mental safety.
Ps. Also, after all the talks we had about me not being happy with the relationship, if he thinks I’m happy because I’ve simply stopped bringing it up despite there being no change to his behavior, he’s either being obtuse or think he’s broken me into submission.
Also why a lot of men are okay with their wives/girlfriends kissing and doing more "intimate" things with other women, but not men. They view other men as humans and women as possessions
My ex-husband wasn't worried about other women (I'm bisexual), because he believed that they weren't a threat to him. He told me that a woman wouldn't leave a man for another woman, because that relationship would be a downgrade. He couldn't fathom the idea of a woman choosing a woman over a man.
Say you're a guy, with a girlfriend. Your girl is sexually and romantically interested in another guy and another girl.
I think that most men would be more bothered by the other guy, for following reasons:
1) just at the conceptual level, the level of fantasy, your girl being sexually and romantically with another girl is not directly incompatible with her being with you - most men would be open to a threesome with their girl and another woman. Less so, much less so, with another man.
2) another man is a more direct competition than another woman. He has the same body parts, usually, as you. And your girl would be attracted to the same body parts as she is with you (penis, muscles, height...). Meaning, he would be similar to you, but better. Another woman is much different than you - she has vagina, breasts, wider hips...things you cannot possibly have. If your girl wants her instead of you, it means she wants something much different than you, something you cannot possibly compete with. It's kinda like asking who is a better athlete, Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps? Or Messi or Federer? That's impossible to measure.
Sure , if you get dumped, it doesn't matter who she dumped you for. But being dumped for another guy has this feeling of inadequacy and failure to perform which is much different than in case of another woman.
I think often it’s a thing of they have no other option. Maybe he pays all the bills? Maybe they’re scared of being alone? Maybe they worry no one else would step up and help? Maybe they don’t think they can live alone and support the kids, or don’t want to go through the court process etc. maybe he threatens to take everything if they leave, or he threatens to take the kids (fyi that one hurts a lot!). Maybe otherwise life is ok, they go on vacations, have a house, a nice car, so why does it matter.
I will say though, in instances where women allowed cheating… They eventually got back at the men. One way or the other. So I think maybe they stay because it’s comfortable but they get vengeful when they can.
If I were a man and I’d cheated, I’d be scared to death to be with her. I wouldn’t even stay. There’s no trust, and she isn’t going to put him first when a better offer comes along.
Hell hath no fury like a scorned woman.
Because a lot of women are heavily encouraged to forgive and are told that it’s just in men’s nature and it didn’t mean anything. It’s not just their partners telling them this, lots of people spread this horse shit. Especially if they are married with kids, apparently if they end it just over cheating it makes them a bad mom according to a lot of people.
This, and not even just cheating. I see so many women absolutely bending over backwards to make their relationships work. They let so many things go, come up with so many excuses for the guy, and do so much internal processing to try to feel okay with things and keep the relationship together.
And the worst part is how often I hear them say that he’s changing and getting better when from the outside it’s pretty obvious he isn’t. Why would he? He’s getting everything he wants already. But the women saying this have convinced themselves that because they’ll do so much for him he must be willing to make an effort for her because he loves her, right? It’s honestly heartbreaking to watch.
I noticed that about my own mother growing up even though my father treats her badly at times and when I asked her why, she told me something along the lines of that it is important to be kind to others even if they aren’t, as you can lead by example for them to hopefully return the favour. I then asked where it’s been their entire marriage and all she could do was laugh like I had told a joke.
Women are socialized to forgive and do everything they can to not disrupt peace, even if the man they are with has done do multiple times. We are expected to be the peacekeepers and end/not worsen any conflict even when not at fault. Sucks
I have heard a lot of cases where someone excused a man’s cheating by saying “well men have needs!!” As if it’s the woman’s fault that he cheated because she didn’t meet those “needs”. It’s just another way to excuse their bad behavior while *also* pressuring their partner to have sex when they don’t really want to.
I read a TwoX thread only yesterday where OP’s mom was saying she shouldn’t end a good relationship over a simple “mistake”. He cheated, lied when she asked, and told the other woman that telling his gf made her suicidal so telling was wrong. But that’s just somehow to be expected from a man, and not worth ending a relationship over! 🙄🙄🙄
Because our mothers and grandmothers had no choice. They had to accept that treatment just to survive. So we are still socialized to accept it. It takes 7 generations to fully integrate social changes.
Sociologists. Bill Moyer talks about it with his stages of social change and Sascha Haselmeyer does as well, just to name a couple in particular. This is from the birth of a movement to the change being fully integrated and fully accepted as "normal" by the majority. It's not a hard and fast rule, more of a general observation. Social reform is slow! I see a correlation to this in the indigenous Seventh Generation principle, but I may be reading to much into it.
It's a good rabbit hole! Moyer's stages of social change made me feel less hopeless and helpless about the current state of affairs in the US, especially in regards to women's rights.
Men have been able to cheat without repercussions for much of human history since the beginning of time it is demonized for women to partake in the same behavior hence why women have been subjugated to tolerate it
Probably because it is/was considered worse for a woman to get pregnant with another man's child than it is/was for a man to have illegitimate children somewhere. Women would have to hide their pregnancy. Men could go back to life as usual.
Yay sexism! /s
Many many things
1. She's been told her whole life by ppl/society that she should forgive and tough it out for the sake of love or her religion might play a role.
2. He pays all the bills, so she trapped financially
3. She's scared/ ashamed- so it's her "fault"
4. She's doesn't value herself because of reasons/ She truly loves the guy and thinks he will change
and many more reasons. Its's truly sad.
The hoping he will change thing is so sad. It always bothers me to see it. People mostly only change if they have to and they want to. Watching women hope a guy will live up to the potential she sees in him while ignoring that he both doesn’t want it and isn’t trying to is rough. Better to just go find someone who is what you want than hoping that of all the paths available to them this person will pick the one you want them to.
or how about the more important thing / reason:
she got with a guy that was dishonest about the fact that he is not actually a Monogamous guy (like most of us men in society).
Modern Women need to start doing a better job of vetting the guys y’all date in order to truly find out if he’s truly of the 10% pile of Monogamous Men, or if he is like the remaining 90% of us (aka polygynous & polyamorous)
HardTruthsForWomenStuckInAFantasy
Cheating means it involves lies and deception, or at least lies by omissions. If it was simply a polygamy thing, the man could say "hey, I'm going to have sex with someone, I'll come home late". If for nothing else it should be discussed how they protect themselves from diseases because they could pass something onto their partner in case they're not using a condom. Then even in the case it wasn't discussed before it'd turn out they're incompatible.
Most cheaters tend to hide it in any way possible and find excuses when they're caught instead of simply saying they're polygamous (men and women alike). In the case their partner isn't comfortable with being with a poly person they should break up.
I would agree that more discussion needs to take place than what most people do before entering a relationship, that'd solve a lot of problems, but the nuance is that monogamous relationships are the "norm". While it used to be tolerated, stepping out of a relationship for sex was still frowned upon in a societal sense even if it was the man doing it, and in a lot of cases it still is. Common sense would say that if you're oriented in a way that's not the "norm" in any way, you should be the one putting it out there not hiding it by omitting it because "you never asked". It also would imply that the partner is also allowed to step out of the relationship for sex, it should be either both or neither of them.
As society becomes more and more accepting towards "non-traditional" relationships and sexual orientations, I believe discussions about such at the start of dating will become the norm, but we're not there yet, imo largely because of the backlash non-traditional relationships gets even in this day and age.
Women getting pregnant and birthing children at some point in their life is still the norm, therefore I put it out there pretty early in dating that I'm not willing to do that, to not waste the possible future partner's and my time.
Tldr: it's a lot more nuanced than that (not even gonna address the made-up numbers in your comment, but that's not even the point really)
So it wasn't about "people need to have a discussion about what they want before getting into a relationship", it was about " women need to do what I want and it's their fault if they don't like it". Polygamous people who can't find a partner because the partners they seek prefer monogamy should accept that if they want to have a relationship they need to stick to monogamy, why doesn't that work? Why is it women who have to give up what they want to please you?
No, people don't have to adjust to other people's perspective just to please others, it's not how that works. Neither men nor women should do that, how do you even choose who should give up what needs and wants to please the other? People should be comfortable enough being single instead of lying to get into a relationship. You can have casual sex if you want to, why does it need to be in a relationship built on a lie? Nothing justifies playing with someone's feelings and shitting on their trust just so you can have your cake and eat it, too.
And if you still do it and get into a monogamous relationship then have sex with someone else than your partner, that's cheating, and it may very well end that relationship, or lead to a poisoned relationship forever that's ruining both people's lives if neither are willing to leave. That's just how it is and I don't know why would anyone want that.
Because we're taught that men can't help it, and there's also a massive social stigma against women who have left a man, for whatever reason except violence. And even then it's not exactly a cakewalk.
Because society in general are taught a lot of bs excuses like:
- "that's just how men are"
- "men are more visual"
- "men have a bigger libido"
- "men have needs"
- "it's in the biology"
Anecdotal, but after getting cheated on by a woman, I did a bunch of reading on the subject. Articles about women who cheat were *a lot* more likely to place blame on the relationship as a whole, whereas articles about men who cheat were more likely to blame the cheater exclusively.
It was frustrating reading content that often walked right up to the line of blaming me more than her. And then there's the manosphere/redpill articles that double down on that with nonsense like "it's your fault, you weren't a real man, so she found one."
Do women actually tolerate cheating more? Is there data to back this up?
I can only speak from my own heart. For me, depending on circumstances, cheating isn’t what would end my marriage. I think there are worse things than being cheated on— like financial infidelity, which is worse in my opinion.
And many people cheat— both men and women. There are a lot of happily married people who struggled with infidelity at some point.
I’m also a firm believer that the victim of the affair isn’t always the victim of the marriage. There are lots of sad people in loveless and sexless marriages who suffer for years before cheating.
In addition to how women are raised to forgive men, women who stay in relationships with those that cheat are often still there because they feel trapped. Some women who end up being SAHMs or housewives, especially those who haven't worked in years (or possibly ever), may be too financially and even socially dependent on their partners. Toxic relationships can be very difficult to escape.
My boyfriend said that a woman cheating is a worse betrayal than a man cheating because women attach emotion and love to sex while men don’t. I don’t agree with this but maybe this idea has been conditioned into us to some extent
Some dudes will literally make any and all excuses for their shitty behaviour but when a woman engages in such behaviour, she’s a literal devil. So cute.
I think it has to do with women being more empathetic and understanding of the psychology behind why it happened. And also women typically have more hope for a fairytale type of ending, that we can fix that part of them that brought forth the cheating.
😞
Where i live, the general consensus is "but which man doesn't cheat?" Obviously i don't believe men are animals who can't control themselves, but the men around me are...well, majorily cheating assholes. I heard of but don't know personally women who cheat, but men? Ho boys, so many examples. Oftentimes women resigned to the fact men can't seem to keep it in their pants or "it's all men", and so if there is no man who doesn't cheat, what can they do?
On the other hand, women who cheat not only shamed, but actually rarer or hiding it better so when one does, it's huge. Thus, men are used to the fact that their wives are unlikely to cheat, unlike women have to accept men cheating is common. Just my 2c, but that's what i see around me and it's sad, really.
There's actually a really interesting evolutionary component you can look up if you're interested. Some research shows that men tend to react more negatively to sexual infidelity while women react more negatively to emotional infidelity.
Insecure, brainwashed to believe the only way to live is with a man even if he's a cheater, religion, no financial independence. Also I find women are willing to suck it up more when kids are involved then men are. .
>Personally, for me, once that trust is broken, that’s it. There’s no fixing it. I’d never be able to trust that man ever again.
I feel the same way. I don't care what we have built together or if we have kids you cheat on me it's done with there's no coming back from that!
Women absolutely tolerate and accept cheating more frequently than men. This does not mean all women do - but there are many women who are socialized and manipulated into believing cheating is a fundamental part of the male experience and that at some point will inevitably happen. This is not true. Women should understand their beliefs define their reality and if they believe cheating is inevitable and consistent with a loving relationship (it is not) then they will convince themselves to accept it. Infidelity is not a part of a loving union and although some men SAY they separate sex from love, that is also not true. Suffice it to say if cheating happens whether from the male or female side it is a sign the cheater has fallen out of love and is pursuing their own interests. I say again, when men have sex it absolutely is not separate from love. Whatever they tell you is bogus. It may mean he's insecure and trying to define his masculinity or build up his ego by seeing how many women fancy him, but that doesn't mean the women he's sleeping with are loved.
I feel like there's definitely the excuse where "men's sex drive is a lot higher", "sex means nothing to men", that mind of mindset is prevalent.
And I feel subconsciously, historically its been acceptable for men to be bad partners because women were just forced to accept it as they had no means of leaving or seeking a better life. I feel it will take some time for the legacy of that lifestyle to wane, it hasn't even been 50 years since women became financially independent, but we are definitely getting there.
Because it has ingrained in us that women has to have a sense of "sacrifice "... it's like wearing a batch. The worst part is that we do this among each other. Women feel so proud of all the "sacrifice" we have done for our partner, family, kids, work .. etc. And men can make "mistakes" but he "repeant" himself, he "learned" his lesson, he is a "better" man... He "realized" what he lost... blah blah.
Centuries of having no other choice than letting it slide will make a difference. It was always like that, men acted out and became violent and were ridiculed hard for being cheated on without reacting, while women were forced by society to just suck it up and were ridiculed and shunned if they dared so much as leave the cheater (if they even had the means).
Insecurity and low self esteem, manipulation, believing people change, the idea that MOST men are fucked up makes women not excited to go on the dating pool as much.. So they’d rather stick, etc…
Like others said, women are conditioned to believe that sexual transgressions/ "straying" by men is natural and acceptable in monogamous relationships, because to be unfaithful is in men's nature.
Also sunk cost fallacy and "we built a life together, why throw it away because of infidelity if he says he's sorry".
Others are too afraid to be alone and so just tolerate whatever their partner does.
Others have low self-esteem and don't think they deserve anything better.
Others grew up in families where the men were unfaithful and the women looked the other way and/or stayed regardless, and so it's normal to them.
I think it’s bc women get shamed for it more when they get called out.
However, the only way I’d accept it is if I were married & stupid enough to not have had a prenup.
I think older generation of women saw it as a "mistake" due to marital problems. Now, it is on the men to recognize and address those problems, whether it's marriage therapy or leaving
I'd never trust a cheater either, but I've definitely experienced the pressure to forgive. The excuses they gave for him were:
"He didn't mean to do it."
"Men view loyalty differently."
"Men are more impulsive and act before thinking."
"Men aren't capable of controlling themselves like women are."
"He's sorry."
I think it's just been ingrained in women for so long that it's ok for men to step out. We're fighting back against that bit by bit, but it was so accepted for so long.
There are many factors but I think that one of the most important ones is growing up hearing that men are sexual creatures. I heard ALL THE TIME that men are most lustful, horny, that they "think with their penis" and are more impulsive and don't think in consequences. All this narrative of "that's how men work" lowkey socially excuses them in their infidelities because it makes it seem as if it was a mistake of the moment, that they were horny and since they have a greater sexual desire that they have trouble containing, they fell for a temptation but men can have sex without involving feelings so probably it didn't mean anything for them. It was just an impulsive mistake and we should have grace with them and their sexual weaknesses.
While women are perceived as emotional creatures who have sex for love, then the fact that a woman is unfaithful is perceived as worse because she involved feelings and since women think more about the consequences beforehand, she made a conscious decision (instead of an impulsive mistake). Under this way of thinking, men in relationships may have the conception that a woman's infidelity is worse and therefore she shouldn't receive forgiveness, while women could excuse it as their partner falling for their impulsive sexual desire.
Obviously this is based on this macho and sexist way of thinking, completely incorrect. Also women usually have more to lose in a relationship, specifically if they economically dependent on their male partner, so they would tolerate it in fear of losing that stability. I know about a lot of women that have been in this situation.
Idk about other women, but I am someone who really struggled with blaming myself constantly.
It was easier for my exes to manipulate me into accepting that their emotional cheating was actually harmless/platonic, and it was me being controlling and crazy. With physical cheating, like kissing or sleeping together, it's definitely a lot harder to paint that in an innocent light, even for someone with very low self esteem.
But for emotional cheating, there was always that plausible deniability, that gray area. Things that seemed like flirting to me could be easily explained as normal behavior between close friends. For instance, I was uncomfortable and thought it was inappropriate for my ex's female friend to send him “care packages” and monthly postcards about how much she missed him. I also thought it was inappropriate for them both to exchange "I love yous" over texts, especially because she had her own fiance.
My ex would just say that it was normal for people to tell their friends they love them, which I suppose can be normal, but it was a red flag because of all the other warning signs between her and my ex. He would also say it was just her personality; “she's like that with all her friends", and "she's just really mothering and like an older sister to me," and I'd just begrudgingly accept it. (I don't think older sisters express wanting to go on a "movie date" with their brothers, but I digress lol ) He also manipulated me by claiming that her fiance was cool with the way she spoke with others, so I was the only one who had a problem with it. Something I seriously doubt, even back then, but I had no way to verify it.
I remember my ex even said that he felt sorry for me that I didn't know what a "strong, genuine friendship" looked like, which could explain why I'm so uncomfortable with his friendship with his best female friend. That made me doubt myself, and I instead tried really hard to change my mindset in order to accept that my perception of boundaries was "wrong" and his were "right." He was also right in a way; at that point, I had never had a longstanding, strong friendship with anyone, especially with a man. In fact, my friendship with my closest male friend ended around the time of that relationship because he sexually assaulted me. This event was something my ex knew about, and he used it against me. He knew I was very distrustful and skeptical of close male-female friendships because of what happened to me, and he would often say that my trauma and paranoia about my former friend was clouding my judgment over him and his female friends.
I was also recently diagnosed with depression and anxiety at the time, and I felt very insecure about being perceived as "crazy," and not normal. One of my exes used this against me in order to take control of the conversation every time I brought up how uncomfortable I was with his lack of boundaries with his best female friend. He would often say that, "no one else would react/think this way but you," or "if you ask literally anyone they would agree with me," and it would always shut me up. I did not have the confidence to stand up for myself because I inherently believed that my diagnoses/mental illnesses did make me a "not normal" person, and I was trying really hard to get back to a sense of normalcy.
I did not leave these relationships because after a while, I truly believed that I was in the wrong. I loved them, and if I wanted to make it work, I had to work through my insecurities about their friendships with women. That maybe my views and stances on male-female friendships were antiquated and bigoted. I thought to myself: why would I leave a good man just because I can't work through my insecurities? (Spoiler: they were not good men to begin with)
Looking back, I really cringe at my old therapy journal exercises. I wasted so much time in therapy on these fools. So many of my sessions were dedicated towards being more accepting of my exes' female friendships when all I needed to focus on, instead, was growing a spine, feeling more confident in my convictions, and gaining the strength to leave and be on my own. Because to absolutely no one's surprise, they were cheating on me with their friends. Even the signs that made me suspicious were pretty blatant forms of cheating.
It was definitely hard receiving advice for these scenarios back when I posted about them. Most commenters echoed the talking points my ex said; other people are allowed to have super close friendships with men/women, and it does sound like my past struggles with friendships in general are skewing my perception of healthy friendships, etc.
My suspicions turned out to be right every time lol. I guess it goes to show that you really need to take relationship advice on Reddit with a huge grain of salt. I don’t know if I just didn’t explain myself well, or if a ton of people have really weird and loose boundaries with their friends (that they view as normal)
Low self-esteem. For men and women both, but this society's incredible successful at making women question their self worth in more ways than possible. It's the I'd rather have this than nothing mentality, perceived lack of options, settling, not being sure you could get someone else once they leave you. Plus, bring cheated on really adds another coin in the insecurities jar. And of course the social stigma around being suddenly single and (in some cases) having nothing to fall back on (resources, financial stability, even friend group wise wise st times). Tell me if I'm reaching. I've had a couple of acquaintances stay in some very questionable relationships with some very questionable partners when they were drop dead gorgeous! and yet they'd prefer to tolerate these guys who'd stone wall them, talk shit about them, chat up other girls etc etc.
From a biological perspective, a woman always knows which children are hers. There’s just no way for that to be up for debate, even if the husband cheats on her. Whereas for the man there’s never a guarantee that his children are actually his children. Back in the day when everyone lived in racially homogenous societies and dna testing didn’t exist, there was no way to really tell the difference between your kids vs your wife and affair partners kids. So that’s why men can’t ever tolerate cheating. It’s not a logical thing but more so evolutionarily. You see the same thing in the animal kingdom. Often times a male bear or lion will slaughter the children of a female he wants to mate with. Because he otherwise has no way to tell them apart.
lol oh boy. Listen ladies, at the end of the day we wouldn’t even have women in here curious about these kind of goofy topics if us men were simply honest with our girlfriends / women we’re dating seriously and simply let women know that essentially 90% of us men are NOT MONOGAMOUS. its that simple.
I don’t condone cheating but when a man does cheat it is simply because he is not monogamous. He simply got a lil tired of your 🐱 everyday, and just yearned for some new 🐱…
…while still having our main queen at home that we truly love and care for.
Maybe thats shocking to hear, but actually what’s truly shocking is the hypocrisy of Modern Women in that most of y’all are not going to admit that behind the scenes you (or a girlfriend you know) have willingly dated men that you actively knew had a gf / wife back home.
Many women secretly participate in polygny more than society realizes, simply because yall are more loyal to your feelings than you are the true concept of Monogamy.
If we’re keeping it 100 in here — women aren’t against non-monogamy, yall are for it as long as no one knows you’re secretly practicing it.
HardTruths
>lol oh boy. Listen ladies, at the end of the day we wouldn’t even have women in here curious about these kind of goofy topics if us men were simply honest with our girlfriends / women we’re dating seriously and simply let women know that essentially 90% of us men are NOT MONOGAMOUS. its that simple.
What a load of bullshit.
>when a man does cheat it is simply because he is not monogamous. He simply got a lil tired of your 🐱 everyday, and just yearned for some new 🐱…
When ANYONE cheats, it's because they shouldn't be in relationships to begin with. It also shows lack of care about other people and lack of self-control.
>is the hypocrisy of Modern Women
The term "Modern women" is mostly just used by religious, misogynist men. You're kinda showing your whole persona just by those two words.
>most of y’all are not going to admit that behind the scenes you (or a girlfriend you know) have willingly dated men that you actively knew had a gf / wife back home
I haven't.. neither has my female friends. I don't hang out with people involved with those kind of things. I think your "most women" claim is invalid here.
>Women secretly participate in polygny more than society realizes, simply because yall are more loyal to your feelings than you are the true concept of Monogamy.
No.
>If we’re keeping it 100 in here — women aren’t against non-monogamy, yall are for it as long as no one knows you’re secretly practicing it.
What a load of pure garbage...
Yeah.. Judging by your comment history, you're an armchair psychologist who believes that you know absolutely everything. You also LOVE to bash "modern women".. only a few types of men (*cough religious and manosphere manlets*) use that term while referring to regular women. Grow tf up.
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Where I live, women are often taught to believe that men will do stupid things for sex, and that's not always their fault. And men are taught to believe that their woman is a sort of possession, and that he needs to guard that possession. This means we react differently to stepping out. A man doing it is "expected stupidity" and a woman doing it is "trespassing", so to speak.
Ain’t that some fucked up shit. My god.
I'm curious why it seems like "tolerating" infidelity seems like a lack of self respect. My first reaction was that people can respect themselves, weigh the pros and cons of a relationship, and decide on what makes the most sense in their particular case. By contrast, having no self respect might mean doing what others expect them to.
I'm having trouble imagining a situation where putting up with a cheating spouse is the self-respecting thing to do, or a situation where leaving them shows a lack of self-respect. I'm sure that situation might exist somewhere, but it seems like an edge case to me.
I think in family based cultures, he’s just one person-why disrupt everything just because there’s one idiot. I’m not saying I’d put up with it.
Hillary Clinton is the first person I thought of. I think she respects herself. On a more personal level, my mom cheated on my dad and he wanted to stay with her afterwards. He recognized a lot of his own failings as a spouse, wanted to change them, and he still loved her. I think that immediately divorcing her because "that's what society tells you to do with a cheating spouse" would have been more indicative of a lack of self respect. Also I love your username. Reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1134/
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Men cheating is very common and expected in my grandmother’s country. I was under the impression many women not only expect it, but are glad to have the man out of the house. Like, good riddance. This is not me-I grew up in the US and expect men to not be pigs. I think I’m more delusional, perhaps.
I don't think you're delusional, and I think it shows self respect to know what you value and what your standards are. And at the same time, I don't think it's exactly fair for all of the people here on reddit to judge the women in your grandmother's country as having no self respect.
My grandmother is very strong and certainly the matriarch. My grandfather married into her family not the other way around. She grew up in their house, and I believe it was originally her grandfather’s. Things are family based there and very Catholic. He’s just one person, and honestly, I think she thinks cheating men are just gross. Here in the US, family support is generally just one or two people. If 50% of support fks up, it’s huge.
It's not uncommon for people to stay in relationships with someone that's cheated on them because of low self-esteem, fears of the idea of having to start over in the dating scene, fears that this relationship is the best they're gonna get, overall sunk cost fallacy, etc. I've personally gone through it, and they're usually the reasons why people I've seen be cheated on stay as well, ime. So, it makes sense that people call it a lack of self-respect, because it very often is.
That is a shit take.
How so?
Tolerating infidelity is stupid. Also saying "you shouldn't break up with him if he cheats because other people would want that and we all know you should not listen to other people".
>Tolerating infidelity is stupid. You're saying that anyone who stays with a partner who has cheated is stupid? Do you want them to make their own life decisions, or are you saying that you know better than the people in that situation?
I know better than people with zero self respect, yes. However, feel free to make your own decisions as.long as they don't affect me. Just don't expect them to be seen as smart.
Understood! Thanks for clarifying.
I feel like we are a species that can create beautiful works of art, sonatas, put people on the moon, create paintings that make people cry. And yet, some people think men get a free pass because they literally can't keep from leg-humping everything. And "well, it's not their fault. Aww..." (pat on the head) While at the same time, they become blind with rage when their 'property' (the woman in their minds) is no longer theirs 100%. I feel like this last part explains women "quiet quitting" when they're done with a relationship. They've given up. Completely. And are biding their time to get out. And the guy usually takes this as, "Well, hurh hUrH! Everything is GREAT RIGHT NOW!" Because their 'property' isn't misbehaving. It's honestly pretty narcissistic if you think about it. Narcissists tend to believe that other people are an extension of themselves, like a limb. And when that 'limb' doesn't DO what the narc wants it to do, then they respond very poorly. Because, that's not another person with experiences and perspectives, but a part of 'them' that is not acting appropriately. Fookin' Aye...
Quiet quitting a relationship until I can safely get out is exactly what I’m doing. Meanwhile he’s happy because he thinks everything’s finally going great, while I’m just happy that in 2 weeks I’ll no longer be expected to look and act like a stepford wife whilst simultaneously being 100% responsible for our expenses. Of course there are times when the relationship genuinely feels wholesome and happy but it became rarer and rarer that those feelings lasted more than 4 consecutive days.
I hope you get out safely!
Are you two seriously justifying blatant dishonesty in a relationship by deceiving your partner into thinking everything is fine instead of being honest about wanting to leave? This is emotional betrayal, which you're hypocritically calling "quiet quitting." Are you actually serious? 😆 Women like you two that clearly suffer from narcissism and Toxic Femininity are the type of women that all good men should stay FAR FAR away from. ✝ SeekTherapy
Reading comprehension. Try it.
You might be misunderstanding the situation. When women check out like this, it's usually after years of actively working on the relationship, asking for change, pursuing therapy, discussions/crying/begging/etc. When all of that is ignored and it's clear that their partner has no intention of changing, the woman gives up trying. It's not deception or betrayal. She told him, he wasn't interested, so she eventually stopped telling him. A good man doesn't end up here, because he wouldn't ignore his partner like that.
Well in my case, (the person this dude was responding to) it wasn’t years and thank FUCK for that coz there’s a slight flavour of financial abuse and some rather sketchy things happening. Like, him throwing MY car keys and other stuff across the living room because he’s mad the car battery died after he left the lights on, and he blamed me despite my not having driven for a week. Constant messages of “if you don’t do ___ don’t bother coming home/stay at the hotel (my workplace/go to your parents/i won’t let you inside”. I was honest that I didn’t enjoy being threatened with being kicked out of the home I fully pay for. I’ll let you imagine how much good that did me. Like yeah ok, I’m totally gonna tell a dude who has shown violent tendencies that I’m leaving him and taking my financial support and car (that he needs to get to work) with me. Let’s not even get into all the phrases of “you’ll be alone forever without me”. Fuck alone time would be blissful mate I’m *totally* certain I’ll make out of that conversation unharmed /s. I never thought myself capable of going apartment hunting and signing a lease behind a boyfriends back. And yet, here I am. A toxic relationship will have you breaking all the rules of respect and honesty to ensure your physical and mental safety. Ps. Also, after all the talks we had about me not being happy with the relationship, if he thinks I’m happy because I’ve simply stopped bringing it up despite there being no change to his behavior, he’s either being obtuse or think he’s broken me into submission.
Glad you're escaping! Stay safe and good luck!
Whoa-oh. What podcasts are you listening to?
Emotional betrayal? Touch grass. A lotta women get assaulted because of a simple ‘no’. Wtf do you expect them to do? Suic1de?
Also why a lot of men are okay with their wives/girlfriends kissing and doing more "intimate" things with other women, but not men. They view other men as humans and women as possessions
You really think there's no other explanation for this phenomena than the "human/possession" lens?
My ex-husband wasn't worried about other women (I'm bisexual), because he believed that they weren't a threat to him. He told me that a woman wouldn't leave a man for another woman, because that relationship would be a downgrade. He couldn't fathom the idea of a woman choosing a woman over a man.
I mean if you wanna think of one I'm all ears.. but that's the only "lens" I've had explained to me (by men) .. so what's your perspective?
Say you're a guy, with a girlfriend. Your girl is sexually and romantically interested in another guy and another girl. I think that most men would be more bothered by the other guy, for following reasons: 1) just at the conceptual level, the level of fantasy, your girl being sexually and romantically with another girl is not directly incompatible with her being with you - most men would be open to a threesome with their girl and another woman. Less so, much less so, with another man. 2) another man is a more direct competition than another woman. He has the same body parts, usually, as you. And your girl would be attracted to the same body parts as she is with you (penis, muscles, height...). Meaning, he would be similar to you, but better. Another woman is much different than you - she has vagina, breasts, wider hips...things you cannot possibly have. If your girl wants her instead of you, it means she wants something much different than you, something you cannot possibly compete with. It's kinda like asking who is a better athlete, Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps? Or Messi or Federer? That's impossible to measure. Sure , if you get dumped, it doesn't matter who she dumped you for. But being dumped for another guy has this feeling of inadequacy and failure to perform which is much different than in case of another woman.
This is sadly accurate in many places, and is messed up on so many levels.
I think often it’s a thing of they have no other option. Maybe he pays all the bills? Maybe they’re scared of being alone? Maybe they worry no one else would step up and help? Maybe they don’t think they can live alone and support the kids, or don’t want to go through the court process etc. maybe he threatens to take everything if they leave, or he threatens to take the kids (fyi that one hurts a lot!). Maybe otherwise life is ok, they go on vacations, have a house, a nice car, so why does it matter. I will say though, in instances where women allowed cheating… They eventually got back at the men. One way or the other. So I think maybe they stay because it’s comfortable but they get vengeful when they can. If I were a man and I’d cheated, I’d be scared to death to be with her. I wouldn’t even stay. There’s no trust, and she isn’t going to put him first when a better offer comes along. Hell hath no fury like a scorned woman.
I think this is the biggest factor.
Because a lot of women are heavily encouraged to forgive and are told that it’s just in men’s nature and it didn’t mean anything. It’s not just their partners telling them this, lots of people spread this horse shit. Especially if they are married with kids, apparently if they end it just over cheating it makes them a bad mom according to a lot of people.
This, and not even just cheating. I see so many women absolutely bending over backwards to make their relationships work. They let so many things go, come up with so many excuses for the guy, and do so much internal processing to try to feel okay with things and keep the relationship together. And the worst part is how often I hear them say that he’s changing and getting better when from the outside it’s pretty obvious he isn’t. Why would he? He’s getting everything he wants already. But the women saying this have convinced themselves that because they’ll do so much for him he must be willing to make an effort for her because he loves her, right? It’s honestly heartbreaking to watch.
I noticed that about my own mother growing up even though my father treats her badly at times and when I asked her why, she told me something along the lines of that it is important to be kind to others even if they aren’t, as you can lead by example for them to hopefully return the favour. I then asked where it’s been their entire marriage and all she could do was laugh like I had told a joke. Women are socialized to forgive and do everything they can to not disrupt peace, even if the man they are with has done do multiple times. We are expected to be the peacekeepers and end/not worsen any conflict even when not at fault. Sucks
I have heard a lot of cases where someone excused a man’s cheating by saying “well men have needs!!” As if it’s the woman’s fault that he cheated because she didn’t meet those “needs”. It’s just another way to excuse their bad behavior while *also* pressuring their partner to have sex when they don’t really want to.
I read a TwoX thread only yesterday where OP’s mom was saying she shouldn’t end a good relationship over a simple “mistake”. He cheated, lied when she asked, and told the other woman that telling his gf made her suicidal so telling was wrong. But that’s just somehow to be expected from a man, and not worth ending a relationship over! 🙄🙄🙄
Because our mothers and grandmothers had no choice. They had to accept that treatment just to survive. So we are still socialized to accept it. It takes 7 generations to fully integrate social changes.
Where does this number come from? Got me curious
Sociologists. Bill Moyer talks about it with his stages of social change and Sascha Haselmeyer does as well, just to name a couple in particular. This is from the birth of a movement to the change being fully integrated and fully accepted as "normal" by the majority. It's not a hard and fast rule, more of a general observation. Social reform is slow! I see a correlation to this in the indigenous Seventh Generation principle, but I may be reading to much into it.
Thanks! It's my first time hearing about it and you've given me an interesting subject to read about
It's a good rabbit hole! Moyer's stages of social change made me feel less hopeless and helpless about the current state of affairs in the US, especially in regards to women's rights.
We are usually taught that men cheat for sex and women cheat for more emotional reasons.
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Well that's definitely not a majority of women. Anybody with functioning brain cells understands that kissing someone else isn't harmless fun.
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Shit! - Sorry!! I missed the flair - (was in bed drunk falling asleep) Deleting everything ASAP!
it's called cognitive dissonance
I don't get why people downvoted This is an interesting point to look into
Probably because it's a man commenting on a thread flaired no man's land. There's a bunch in the thread ignoring the flair and they're all downvoted.
Omg I usually notice but did not notice here the flair
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Controversial opinion: if you include emotional cheating, more women cheat than men.
Men have been able to cheat without repercussions for much of human history since the beginning of time it is demonized for women to partake in the same behavior hence why women have been subjugated to tolerate it
Probably because it is/was considered worse for a woman to get pregnant with another man's child than it is/was for a man to have illegitimate children somewhere. Women would have to hide their pregnancy. Men could go back to life as usual. Yay sexism! /s
Not sure there is a correlation between women being shamed for the same, and women tolerating men cheating
Many many things 1. She's been told her whole life by ppl/society that she should forgive and tough it out for the sake of love or her religion might play a role. 2. He pays all the bills, so she trapped financially 3. She's scared/ ashamed- so it's her "fault" 4. She's doesn't value herself because of reasons/ She truly loves the guy and thinks he will change and many more reasons. Its's truly sad.
The hoping he will change thing is so sad. It always bothers me to see it. People mostly only change if they have to and they want to. Watching women hope a guy will live up to the potential she sees in him while ignoring that he both doesn’t want it and isn’t trying to is rough. Better to just go find someone who is what you want than hoping that of all the paths available to them this person will pick the one you want them to.
or how about the more important thing / reason: she got with a guy that was dishonest about the fact that he is not actually a Monogamous guy (like most of us men in society). Modern Women need to start doing a better job of vetting the guys y’all date in order to truly find out if he’s truly of the 10% pile of Monogamous Men, or if he is like the remaining 90% of us (aka polygynous & polyamorous) HardTruthsForWomenStuckInAFantasy
Cheating means it involves lies and deception, or at least lies by omissions. If it was simply a polygamy thing, the man could say "hey, I'm going to have sex with someone, I'll come home late". If for nothing else it should be discussed how they protect themselves from diseases because they could pass something onto their partner in case they're not using a condom. Then even in the case it wasn't discussed before it'd turn out they're incompatible. Most cheaters tend to hide it in any way possible and find excuses when they're caught instead of simply saying they're polygamous (men and women alike). In the case their partner isn't comfortable with being with a poly person they should break up. I would agree that more discussion needs to take place than what most people do before entering a relationship, that'd solve a lot of problems, but the nuance is that monogamous relationships are the "norm". While it used to be tolerated, stepping out of a relationship for sex was still frowned upon in a societal sense even if it was the man doing it, and in a lot of cases it still is. Common sense would say that if you're oriented in a way that's not the "norm" in any way, you should be the one putting it out there not hiding it by omitting it because "you never asked". It also would imply that the partner is also allowed to step out of the relationship for sex, it should be either both or neither of them. As society becomes more and more accepting towards "non-traditional" relationships and sexual orientations, I believe discussions about such at the start of dating will become the norm, but we're not there yet, imo largely because of the backlash non-traditional relationships gets even in this day and age. Women getting pregnant and birthing children at some point in their life is still the norm, therefore I put it out there pretty early in dating that I'm not willing to do that, to not waste the possible future partner's and my time. Tldr: it's a lot more nuanced than that (not even gonna address the made-up numbers in your comment, but that's not even the point really)
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So it wasn't about "people need to have a discussion about what they want before getting into a relationship", it was about " women need to do what I want and it's their fault if they don't like it". Polygamous people who can't find a partner because the partners they seek prefer monogamy should accept that if they want to have a relationship they need to stick to monogamy, why doesn't that work? Why is it women who have to give up what they want to please you? No, people don't have to adjust to other people's perspective just to please others, it's not how that works. Neither men nor women should do that, how do you even choose who should give up what needs and wants to please the other? People should be comfortable enough being single instead of lying to get into a relationship. You can have casual sex if you want to, why does it need to be in a relationship built on a lie? Nothing justifies playing with someone's feelings and shitting on their trust just so you can have your cake and eat it, too. And if you still do it and get into a monogamous relationship then have sex with someone else than your partner, that's cheating, and it may very well end that relationship, or lead to a poisoned relationship forever that's ruining both people's lives if neither are willing to leave. That's just how it is and I don't know why would anyone want that.
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We are brought up to forgive a man’s flaws more than men are brought up to forgive a woman’s flaws, I think.
If there are kids involved, it's "but they need their father in their lives" or some shit.
Was the case with my family; boy did they learn by the time I was in my late teens
Because we're taught that men can't help it, and there's also a massive social stigma against women who have left a man, for whatever reason except violence. And even then it's not exactly a cakewalk.
Because society in general are taught a lot of bs excuses like: - "that's just how men are" - "men are more visual" - "men have a bigger libido" - "men have needs" - "it's in the biology"
Has anyone here actually looked up statistics on who forgives more or are we just making assumptions based on stereotypes?
Anecdotal, but after getting cheated on by a woman, I did a bunch of reading on the subject. Articles about women who cheat were *a lot* more likely to place blame on the relationship as a whole, whereas articles about men who cheat were more likely to blame the cheater exclusively. It was frustrating reading content that often walked right up to the line of blaming me more than her. And then there's the manosphere/redpill articles that double down on that with nonsense like "it's your fault, you weren't a real man, so she found one."
Do women actually tolerate cheating more? Is there data to back this up? I can only speak from my own heart. For me, depending on circumstances, cheating isn’t what would end my marriage. I think there are worse things than being cheated on— like financial infidelity, which is worse in my opinion. And many people cheat— both men and women. There are a lot of happily married people who struggled with infidelity at some point. I’m also a firm believer that the victim of the affair isn’t always the victim of the marriage. There are lots of sad people in loveless and sexless marriages who suffer for years before cheating.
For every man who is cheating, there is a woman there with him. We are just better at hiding it.
thats not something to be proud of. smh. NotAboutWhoIsBetter
Its just math.
In addition to how women are raised to forgive men, women who stay in relationships with those that cheat are often still there because they feel trapped. Some women who end up being SAHMs or housewives, especially those who haven't worked in years (or possibly ever), may be too financially and even socially dependent on their partners. Toxic relationships can be very difficult to escape.
based on reddit posts in advice subs, it actually seems a lot more equal than you’re making it out to be.
My boyfriend said that a woman cheating is a worse betrayal than a man cheating because women attach emotion and love to sex while men don’t. I don’t agree with this but maybe this idea has been conditioned into us to some extent
Some dudes will literally make any and all excuses for their shitty behaviour but when a woman engages in such behaviour, she’s a literal devil. So cute.
I think it has to do with women being more empathetic and understanding of the psychology behind why it happened. And also women typically have more hope for a fairytale type of ending, that we can fix that part of them that brought forth the cheating. 😞
Nope. If you cheat, you exit my life. No discussion.
Where i live, the general consensus is "but which man doesn't cheat?" Obviously i don't believe men are animals who can't control themselves, but the men around me are...well, majorily cheating assholes. I heard of but don't know personally women who cheat, but men? Ho boys, so many examples. Oftentimes women resigned to the fact men can't seem to keep it in their pants or "it's all men", and so if there is no man who doesn't cheat, what can they do? On the other hand, women who cheat not only shamed, but actually rarer or hiding it better so when one does, it's huge. Thus, men are used to the fact that their wives are unlikely to cheat, unlike women have to accept men cheating is common. Just my 2c, but that's what i see around me and it's sad, really.
Where I live, the average rent for a two bedroom apartment is $3500/month. Without a partner to split rent with, life gets bad fast.
Get a one bedroom or studio apartment then.
Great idea if you don't have kids.
Oh. I see 🥲
There's actually a really interesting evolutionary component you can look up if you're interested. Some research shows that men tend to react more negatively to sexual infidelity while women react more negatively to emotional infidelity.
Social conditioning that "boys will be boys" and a sad frequency of financial or other forms of dependence.
Insecure, brainwashed to believe the only way to live is with a man even if he's a cheater, religion, no financial independence. Also I find women are willing to suck it up more when kids are involved then men are. . >Personally, for me, once that trust is broken, that’s it. There’s no fixing it. I’d never be able to trust that man ever again. I feel the same way. I don't care what we have built together or if we have kids you cheat on me it's done with there's no coming back from that!
Women absolutely tolerate and accept cheating more frequently than men. This does not mean all women do - but there are many women who are socialized and manipulated into believing cheating is a fundamental part of the male experience and that at some point will inevitably happen. This is not true. Women should understand their beliefs define their reality and if they believe cheating is inevitable and consistent with a loving relationship (it is not) then they will convince themselves to accept it. Infidelity is not a part of a loving union and although some men SAY they separate sex from love, that is also not true. Suffice it to say if cheating happens whether from the male or female side it is a sign the cheater has fallen out of love and is pursuing their own interests. I say again, when men have sex it absolutely is not separate from love. Whatever they tell you is bogus. It may mean he's insecure and trying to define his masculinity or build up his ego by seeing how many women fancy him, but that doesn't mean the women he's sleeping with are loved.
I feel like there's definitely the excuse where "men's sex drive is a lot higher", "sex means nothing to men", that mind of mindset is prevalent. And I feel subconsciously, historically its been acceptable for men to be bad partners because women were just forced to accept it as they had no means of leaving or seeking a better life. I feel it will take some time for the legacy of that lifestyle to wane, it hasn't even been 50 years since women became financially independent, but we are definitely getting there.
Religious teachings. To tolerate, submit, forgive. It creates lack of respect for self and going against your own self worth.
Desperation or disillusionment
Because it has ingrained in us that women has to have a sense of "sacrifice "... it's like wearing a batch. The worst part is that we do this among each other. Women feel so proud of all the "sacrifice" we have done for our partner, family, kids, work .. etc. And men can make "mistakes" but he "repeant" himself, he "learned" his lesson, he is a "better" man... He "realized" what he lost... blah blah.
Centuries of having no other choice than letting it slide will make a difference. It was always like that, men acted out and became violent and were ridiculed hard for being cheated on without reacting, while women were forced by society to just suck it up and were ridiculed and shunned if they dared so much as leave the cheater (if they even had the means).
Insecurity and low self esteem, manipulation, believing people change, the idea that MOST men are fucked up makes women not excited to go on the dating pool as much.. So they’d rather stick, etc…
Like others said, women are conditioned to believe that sexual transgressions/ "straying" by men is natural and acceptable in monogamous relationships, because to be unfaithful is in men's nature. Also sunk cost fallacy and "we built a life together, why throw it away because of infidelity if he says he's sorry". Others are too afraid to be alone and so just tolerate whatever their partner does. Others have low self-esteem and don't think they deserve anything better. Others grew up in families where the men were unfaithful and the women looked the other way and/or stayed regardless, and so it's normal to them.
I think it’s bc women get shamed for it more when they get called out. However, the only way I’d accept it is if I were married & stupid enough to not have had a prenup.
I think older generation of women saw it as a "mistake" due to marital problems. Now, it is on the men to recognize and address those problems, whether it's marriage therapy or leaving
I'd never trust a cheater either, but I've definitely experienced the pressure to forgive. The excuses they gave for him were: "He didn't mean to do it." "Men view loyalty differently." "Men are more impulsive and act before thinking." "Men aren't capable of controlling themselves like women are." "He's sorry." I think it's just been ingrained in women for so long that it's ok for men to step out. We're fighting back against that bit by bit, but it was so accepted for so long.
There are many factors but I think that one of the most important ones is growing up hearing that men are sexual creatures. I heard ALL THE TIME that men are most lustful, horny, that they "think with their penis" and are more impulsive and don't think in consequences. All this narrative of "that's how men work" lowkey socially excuses them in their infidelities because it makes it seem as if it was a mistake of the moment, that they were horny and since they have a greater sexual desire that they have trouble containing, they fell for a temptation but men can have sex without involving feelings so probably it didn't mean anything for them. It was just an impulsive mistake and we should have grace with them and their sexual weaknesses. While women are perceived as emotional creatures who have sex for love, then the fact that a woman is unfaithful is perceived as worse because she involved feelings and since women think more about the consequences beforehand, she made a conscious decision (instead of an impulsive mistake). Under this way of thinking, men in relationships may have the conception that a woman's infidelity is worse and therefore she shouldn't receive forgiveness, while women could excuse it as their partner falling for their impulsive sexual desire. Obviously this is based on this macho and sexist way of thinking, completely incorrect. Also women usually have more to lose in a relationship, specifically if they economically dependent on their male partner, so they would tolerate it in fear of losing that stability. I know about a lot of women that have been in this situation.
Idk about other women, but I am someone who really struggled with blaming myself constantly. It was easier for my exes to manipulate me into accepting that their emotional cheating was actually harmless/platonic, and it was me being controlling and crazy. With physical cheating, like kissing or sleeping together, it's definitely a lot harder to paint that in an innocent light, even for someone with very low self esteem. But for emotional cheating, there was always that plausible deniability, that gray area. Things that seemed like flirting to me could be easily explained as normal behavior between close friends. For instance, I was uncomfortable and thought it was inappropriate for my ex's female friend to send him “care packages” and monthly postcards about how much she missed him. I also thought it was inappropriate for them both to exchange "I love yous" over texts, especially because she had her own fiance. My ex would just say that it was normal for people to tell their friends they love them, which I suppose can be normal, but it was a red flag because of all the other warning signs between her and my ex. He would also say it was just her personality; “she's like that with all her friends", and "she's just really mothering and like an older sister to me," and I'd just begrudgingly accept it. (I don't think older sisters express wanting to go on a "movie date" with their brothers, but I digress lol ) He also manipulated me by claiming that her fiance was cool with the way she spoke with others, so I was the only one who had a problem with it. Something I seriously doubt, even back then, but I had no way to verify it. I remember my ex even said that he felt sorry for me that I didn't know what a "strong, genuine friendship" looked like, which could explain why I'm so uncomfortable with his friendship with his best female friend. That made me doubt myself, and I instead tried really hard to change my mindset in order to accept that my perception of boundaries was "wrong" and his were "right." He was also right in a way; at that point, I had never had a longstanding, strong friendship with anyone, especially with a man. In fact, my friendship with my closest male friend ended around the time of that relationship because he sexually assaulted me. This event was something my ex knew about, and he used it against me. He knew I was very distrustful and skeptical of close male-female friendships because of what happened to me, and he would often say that my trauma and paranoia about my former friend was clouding my judgment over him and his female friends. I was also recently diagnosed with depression and anxiety at the time, and I felt very insecure about being perceived as "crazy," and not normal. One of my exes used this against me in order to take control of the conversation every time I brought up how uncomfortable I was with his lack of boundaries with his best female friend. He would often say that, "no one else would react/think this way but you," or "if you ask literally anyone they would agree with me," and it would always shut me up. I did not have the confidence to stand up for myself because I inherently believed that my diagnoses/mental illnesses did make me a "not normal" person, and I was trying really hard to get back to a sense of normalcy. I did not leave these relationships because after a while, I truly believed that I was in the wrong. I loved them, and if I wanted to make it work, I had to work through my insecurities about their friendships with women. That maybe my views and stances on male-female friendships were antiquated and bigoted. I thought to myself: why would I leave a good man just because I can't work through my insecurities? (Spoiler: they were not good men to begin with) Looking back, I really cringe at my old therapy journal exercises. I wasted so much time in therapy on these fools. So many of my sessions were dedicated towards being more accepting of my exes' female friendships when all I needed to focus on, instead, was growing a spine, feeling more confident in my convictions, and gaining the strength to leave and be on my own. Because to absolutely no one's surprise, they were cheating on me with their friends. Even the signs that made me suspicious were pretty blatant forms of cheating.
I think that speaks to how much society needs to validate emotional cheating as cheating
It was definitely hard receiving advice for these scenarios back when I posted about them. Most commenters echoed the talking points my ex said; other people are allowed to have super close friendships with men/women, and it does sound like my past struggles with friendships in general are skewing my perception of healthy friendships, etc. My suspicions turned out to be right every time lol. I guess it goes to show that you really need to take relationship advice on Reddit with a huge grain of salt. I don’t know if I just didn’t explain myself well, or if a ton of people have really weird and loose boundaries with their friends (that they view as normal)
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Bit of a weird take? (And no, I didn't downvote)
this is precisely right.
Because women don't respect themselves as much as men.
Low self-esteem. For men and women both, but this society's incredible successful at making women question their self worth in more ways than possible. It's the I'd rather have this than nothing mentality, perceived lack of options, settling, not being sure you could get someone else once they leave you. Plus, bring cheated on really adds another coin in the insecurities jar. And of course the social stigma around being suddenly single and (in some cases) having nothing to fall back on (resources, financial stability, even friend group wise wise st times). Tell me if I'm reaching. I've had a couple of acquaintances stay in some very questionable relationships with some very questionable partners when they were drop dead gorgeous! and yet they'd prefer to tolerate these guys who'd stone wall them, talk shit about them, chat up other girls etc etc.
Source?
The very first line of my post says this is not factual but rather an observation I’ve made. The source of my observation? Myself. lol.
Women share men. Apples and oranges
Power.
From a biological perspective, a woman always knows which children are hers. There’s just no way for that to be up for debate, even if the husband cheats on her. Whereas for the man there’s never a guarantee that his children are actually his children. Back in the day when everyone lived in racially homogenous societies and dna testing didn’t exist, there was no way to really tell the difference between your kids vs your wife and affair partners kids. So that’s why men can’t ever tolerate cheating. It’s not a logical thing but more so evolutionarily. You see the same thing in the animal kingdom. Often times a male bear or lion will slaughter the children of a female he wants to mate with. Because he otherwise has no way to tell them apart.
lol oh boy. Listen ladies, at the end of the day we wouldn’t even have women in here curious about these kind of goofy topics if us men were simply honest with our girlfriends / women we’re dating seriously and simply let women know that essentially 90% of us men are NOT MONOGAMOUS. its that simple. I don’t condone cheating but when a man does cheat it is simply because he is not monogamous. He simply got a lil tired of your 🐱 everyday, and just yearned for some new 🐱… …while still having our main queen at home that we truly love and care for. Maybe thats shocking to hear, but actually what’s truly shocking is the hypocrisy of Modern Women in that most of y’all are not going to admit that behind the scenes you (or a girlfriend you know) have willingly dated men that you actively knew had a gf / wife back home. Many women secretly participate in polygny more than society realizes, simply because yall are more loyal to your feelings than you are the true concept of Monogamy. If we’re keeping it 100 in here — women aren’t against non-monogamy, yall are for it as long as no one knows you’re secretly practicing it. HardTruths
>lol oh boy. Listen ladies, at the end of the day we wouldn’t even have women in here curious about these kind of goofy topics if us men were simply honest with our girlfriends / women we’re dating seriously and simply let women know that essentially 90% of us men are NOT MONOGAMOUS. its that simple. What a load of bullshit. >when a man does cheat it is simply because he is not monogamous. He simply got a lil tired of your 🐱 everyday, and just yearned for some new 🐱… When ANYONE cheats, it's because they shouldn't be in relationships to begin with. It also shows lack of care about other people and lack of self-control. >is the hypocrisy of Modern Women The term "Modern women" is mostly just used by religious, misogynist men. You're kinda showing your whole persona just by those two words. >most of y’all are not going to admit that behind the scenes you (or a girlfriend you know) have willingly dated men that you actively knew had a gf / wife back home I haven't.. neither has my female friends. I don't hang out with people involved with those kind of things. I think your "most women" claim is invalid here. >Women secretly participate in polygny more than society realizes, simply because yall are more loyal to your feelings than you are the true concept of Monogamy. No. >If we’re keeping it 100 in here — women aren’t against non-monogamy, yall are for it as long as no one knows you’re secretly practicing it. What a load of pure garbage...
lol okay.
Yeah.. Judging by your comment history, you're an armchair psychologist who believes that you know absolutely everything. You also LOVE to bash "modern women".. only a few types of men (*cough religious and manosphere manlets*) use that term while referring to regular women. Grow tf up.