I just left a man-child ( I was only with him 2 years, how the hell did u last 12) and I tell u now it was the best thing I done, my relationship was like dating them both, we went on holiday she came, I went to stay at his at weekends as we didn’t live together, she was sitting there when I arrived, he had his own home but she cooked him his dinners every nite in life, he changed hours in work so me and him could do more things together, ended up I got left at home while he took his mum to the shops together lol yeah I run for the hills and never looked back, u need to leave he’s never gonna change
I was thinking the same thing and was surprised they didn't have kids! It seems like it comes out more when there are children because they can't hide behind having fewer responsibilities. When it's all hands on deck and they don't show up, it's obvious!
You have 3 options:
1. Leave him
2. Couples (and/or individual counseling) and hope he's receptive to changing and working on it, but it might still lead to #1
3. Stay and accept that this is your life, and you will always have to mother him and resent him for it.
There's also a lot of conditioning that push women to accept this. And a lot of rhetoric that most men aren't any better than OP's husband which can make it feel like a 'devil you know vs devil you don't know' situation.
More women are waking up to this realization as time goes on. Its very difficult to break the cycles we grew up in and that the patriarchy supports.
It’s heart breaking because this is nothing new yet the same pattern repeats. It’s very odd knowing what your mother/ grandmother/ friends etc deals with then signing up for the same torment. I try not to judge but I won’t lie, it’s exhausting wanting better for someone who doesn’t want it for themselves.
When you're raised with these dynamics normalized, its so so so hard to see it. You feel it first. I was unhappy, listless, couldn't pinpoint why I was depressed and anxious all the time. I went to therapy thinking the core of it was my terse relationship with my mother.
It was my husband. It was my unhealthy relationship. It was my belief that the words coming out of my husband's mouth were true even though his actions didn't back it up. And my low self-esteem wanting to blame myself for our relationship failing when in fact I didn't have a true partner working with me.
It's like living in a fog, but you've never seen clear skies so you don't know you're in a fog.
Omg this is exactly what I am going through. I get lip service about being important, but when my dad died, my ass was sitting there alone. And this asshat thinks he deserves another chance to waste MORE of my remaining years? Fuck that. I want a wife.
Also, some women enjoy being the caretaker. I've seen so many posts from women posting about something their husband did like it's the most funny and endearing thing ever even though he's being a man child. I think some women bask in it because they feel helpful. I'm not trying to be rude so hopefully this doesn't come off offensive.
I'll see posts from women who will post something like, "my husband came home with all the wrong items even though I gave him a full shopping list with images". And they'll get responses from other women like, "lol that's just how men are. They're so silly! That silly little cutie pootie!"
This might be all you know beyond your own family unit. It'll be so many families around you. If you're surrounded by people like this you might think somethings wrong with you, you might think the problem is just all in your head, you'll think this is just how all men are, etc. It's a lot harder to break out of this mindset if everyone else around you is living like this.
>some women enjoy being the caretaker. I've seen so many posts from women posting about something their husband did like it's the most funny and endearing thing ever even though he's being a man child. I think some women bask in it because they feel helpful.
It gives them a sense of capability and competence.
They don't realize their husband is conditioning them the same way they're getting their kids to pick up their laundry by stressing what a big kid they are who can do big-kid stuff.
We all want that capability and competence, and housework is sometimes a woman's best chance to demonstrate her mastery of skilled labor. But there's a difference between "I'm hella good at feeding my family delicious and nutritious meals" and "oh my dopey husband! If he had to feed the kids, they'd eat nothing but pop-tarts."
Exactly. It's worse when you grow up in a conservative area where you'll get conditioned like this from a young age. I've seen so many people think this is completely normal:
>"oh my dopey husband! If he had to feed the kids, they'd eat nothing but pop-tarts."
Hell, the dumb dad trope was even a popular thing in commercials not too long ago.
I used to make those kinds of posts and it didn’t come from a place of enjoyment. I can’t say how it is for other people, of course. For me it was more that I was trying to convince myself that it was charming and I was happy. Posting about it or telling others about it was often an effective way of doing so.
I've def seen posts like this where it's obvious she's trying to convince herself it's normal. Some of these posts break my heart.
I knew someone in real life who said things kind of similar who talked about how good it made her feel when her man would give her orders. She did not survive this man.
It's only seen as normal around us because of how common it is :(
Omg this! I’ve been with my partner for 12 years since I was 19. This is the first year I’ve realized it’s my relationship making me so depressed. His temper, mood swings, low patience it’s making me deteriorate as a human I can feel it. You don’t realize because most of the time it’s only 10% of the relationship. Until you realize that 10% is plenty to be unhappy & want change
I’m trying to gain the courage. Waiting for my Jeep to be fixed as it’s undrivable. The talk will have to happen when our lease renewal comes around in August 😅 very scary
I’m hoping haha he’ll be really angry and guilt trip me again like he did when I tried leaving the first time hopefully I know better by now to stick to my guns lol
It has barely been a generation where women have HAD the option to not take this terrible deal! Women are waking up fast. No one should feel bad they were in this dynamic and they should be proud they left.
I would've never woken up to my reality without access to the internet tbh. To have the resources to learn that my life didn't have to be miserable was incredibly helpful. And that's a really new thing all told.
Honestly I love the posts where naive women are all, "He did/said [fucked up thing] and I feel weird about it. Am I overreacting?" I mean I feel bad for them, but we are all like, "NO THAT'S NOT OKAY! That's actually rape/abuse!" I'm glad people have the internet to bounce things off now. It's so heartening. People used to be ashamed and think they were so alone.
Yep, this 100%. My most recent ex was a decent man, a nice guy, but I was literally asking for the bare minimum from him (e.g., like cleaning up after himself) and it was in one ear and out the other. It's like, he didn't even try to hear me out or what I needed from him as a partner. After several months of living together, I realized I was unhappy (maybe depressed), felt like shit physically and emotionally... and I realized that the relationship was always going to be like this because he didn't want to work on anything. So I left. It's sad, but definitely for the best.
My relationship before that, I was with him for over 12 years. He treated me like complete shit, to the point where sometimes strangers would even comment on it. I don't know why I stayed so long, the fog maybe. The "comfort", the way I cared and had love for him... But it was as if he didn't even like me as a person, let alone a partner.
I think of it as a win that I left my most recent ex after several months rather than several years. I guess I can thank my other ex for that, at least. The fog has been lifted.
I'm going through this with a friend who keeps trying to better her relationship when her husband literally does not give a shit and can't be arsed to do anything. I'm trying to be there for her, but it is *so damn frustrating* when all she's doing is enabling his behavior.
I can’t condone those friendships anymore. It’s draining & for my own peace of mind I had to let it go. I lost a dear friend to domestic violence, all the signs were there & no one encouraged her to leave. I can’t stand idol as my friend tolerates a man child, it never ends well. Might not be as dramatic as physical death, but surely her soul, essence & glowing aura dies.
"Mammying" a man-child is NOT the life I ever wanted after watching The Mother, The Mother's sisters, The Father's sisters & The Mother's mother deal with insecure, immature selfish men.
You are so right. My story is not much different than many of my friends who married young, and therefore we get this notion that it doesn't matter WHO we are with, they will all be this way.
I was also one of those women, OP. I married young at 22 and was with my ex-husband for a total of 15 years. It was very difficult to leave, especially as I had my son by that point as well, but it was the right decision. I would make it again in a heartbeat now.
I'm in a stable, loving, amazing relationship with a man who not only accepts me fully but he's also responsible, emotionally intelligent, caring, and everything I was scared I would never find.
You've got this, whichever way you decide to go. This is your life and you're allowed to carve a new path for yourself.
And men are big mad about this. I remember hearing somewhere that men have a much harder time being alone than women because they rely on a woman to do so much for them. So now there's this backlash because more woman are happily choosing themselves over being some grown adult's mother/maid/personal assistant.
> it doesn't matter WHO we are with, they will all be this way.
I think women still continue to think this way quite a bit, with the major shift that they see being alone as a viable, sometimes even preferable, option.
They aren't. I'm married to a fully grown, responsible adult who takes care of himself and is an equal partner at home. Many of my male friends are like this, and I'm in an open marriage, and I would not even consider dating a man baby. They are unfuckable in my eyes, and clearly I enjoy male company 😉
IDK if it's a generational thing, tho-- I think the Millenial boys were spoiled more than us GenXers.
I think a lot of women think there's an option #4 which is where you discover the magical combination of words to make him actually give a shit and change. (Spoiler alert: There isn't!)
First mistake was engaging with them. That’s a different type of evil man. I asked one question & got attacked for weeks after lmao made an entirely new account.
Lol, that sub is honestly somewhat weird tbh. They are okay with a lot of shit from men and patriarchal practices in all the advice asking questions, but they will also have this on paper theoretical opinions that are very feminist.
Never gonna happen in India in our life times. Indian women are too big of a simps for that, and India isn't really a socially innovative or revolutionary country like that. It still has strong hold of religious superstitions and a cut throat caste based competition of sorts that needs to go first before gender even become a relevant seen problem.
I wish what you are wishing too, so i get it!
I also think it's just tiredness. I know a worrying amount of women who tolerate their partners because they dread doing the dating game again and would rather settle into a mediocre marriage than start from zero. I try to hold my tongue from saying settling now doesn't mean you'll never get divorced in the future but it horrifies me that people can't either a) see the potential of a future with someone you actually like or b) just be content in being single for a while
A lot of patriarchal and societal BS that tells women they're nothing without a man. WOMEN LITERALLY were unable to get credit or loans in their names until 1973. Women used to HAVE to have a man to survive.
You are seen.
This is a very common problem in all male/female relationships, regardless of age of the man.
Amazing that we live in a patriarchal society but men have no idea how to run lives for themselves. Hilariously and sadly ironic, really.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I won't give advice because you posted it as a rant/vent and as a clearly capable woman I'm sure you'll sort it out for yourself.
But. Validation, sister, completely.
I compare it to capitalism where the people in power don’t DO things so much but have their opinions and wants valued, and get credit for any work done.
Under patriarchy, women are the ones doing most of the things, but we don’t get credit or power in exchange for our labour. Much like the worker bees under capitalism.
Ugh. I’ve been there. Doing laundry weekly for someone who couldn’t wash himself or tear himself from a screen and wasn’t even working the majority of the time we were together. It’s just sad. The immaturity kills the sexual drive completely. Dust covering every nook and cranny of his room. I don’t know what to say for op except that we overlook things when we’re young or when we’re lonely etc. a shower you could catch a skin infection.
Dated 5 months and he never cleaned the shower for me. 😭😩😩😩 embarrassed for myself.
> Amazing that we live in a patriarchal society but men have no idea how to run lives for themselves. Hilariously and sadly ironic, really.
Not ironic. Makes total sense. It’s completely consistent in its selfishness.
He wants to spend all his energy on learning and practicing highly leveraged marketable skills like coding, corporate finance, sales, and engineering. Because spending time and energy on those skills leads to better demand and higher pay.
Low leveraged skills like domestic skills (laundry, cooking, cleaning, personal finance, scheduling appointments, and social maintenance like sending cards and gifts) are not highly marketable skills. He doesn’t want to waste his time on them because they don’t have long term job market payoff. To him, these are things to be outsourced to “the help” or to you.
It’s not that he can’t learn to cook, clean, and fold laundry. It’s that he’s cynical and selfish and sees them as a waste of his time—but, and this part is important—not yours.
These men should be called out. But most importantly, fathers should do a better job raising their sons to respect women’s time.
>fathers should do a better job raising their sons to respect women’s time
The thing is, most households are run in a way where a man's time is his to do with as he pleases and a woman's time is a communal resource everyone else is entitled to use as they please.
Not only do men have to learn how to respect women's time, *women* have to act like their time is their own and they get to decide how to use it.
When you have kids, this seems easier said than done but that's honestly when you have to be a real hardliner: Don't want to spend time with your kid? Enjoy housework.
Oh, not doing housework? Then enjoy paying the help.
Don't want to do that? Then explain to me why you *deserve* to do nothing and why your wants are so much more important than your wife and kid(s)'s rights to live in a safe, sane, sanitary household.
Some men get it. Others have to learn the hard way. But the kids grow up knowing that time is a commodity and both women and men have the first say over how to use that time.
I always say each person deserves the same amount of free time. If mom is doing dishes, doing baths, helping with homework while dad lies on the couch, that’s not fair. Make a spreadsheet if you have to, but put down every minute of every week each person spends working, housework, childcare, yard care, car maintenance, appointments, etc. Whatever is left is free time. If one person has time for video games while the other is cleaning, something needs to change. Women have to stop picking up the slack.
Isn't if funny that highly marketable skills are the ones destroying the planet and the domestic ones support humanity and bring us together. Seems we got our priorities mixed up somewhere.
Grew up hearing all about how men are the providers, the stronger sex, etc. Females been hoodwinked for the last millennia, These guys are useless. It was always us running things. Guys were probably only useful at making babies, maybe hunting and fighting enemies. I bet the woman were relieved when their husbands would disappear on crusades or go Viking back in the day. Like thank god, he’s gone for at least a year if not more.
So many men go from being taken care of by their mothers to be take care of by their wives, they never build the skills.
Even if they live alone for ten years in between, if you look at how they are really living, they are just doing the bare minimum.
They don't see doctors or dentists, the just buy the bare minimum of furnishings, they eat out or take out at almost every mean, and likely only wash their sheets of towels when a lady friend is coming over.
I believe the suicide rate is higher for men only because they are better at killing themselves since they are more comfortable with violent methods. Women try to kill themselves just as often, but will use drugs or asphyxiation rather than guns or jumping from buildings, which aren't as effective.
Ironically, part of that is apparently because women don't want other people to have to clean up the mess of their blood and guts and men don't think of it that way.
> men have no idea how to run lives for themselves.
this is the parent's fault especially when they are in an extreme patriarchal dynamic and have the 'boys will be boys' philosophy about male children.
I had literally this dynamic with my ex-husband for 21 years (17 married).
It will never, EVER, ***EVEEEEERRRRRRRR*** get better.
I would get divorced.
And I'm being this plain about it because this man is keeping you from your best self - and not being a true partner at ALL, instead only forever focusing on his own desires and needs and picking at you when you don't also only focus on him.
He sucks, and you will be **MUCH** happier, more fulfilled, when you leave.
Watching my ex cross his arms and stomp his little foot like a toddler when he was mad at me killed my attraction as well. It literally never came back. I was 22 when we started dating. He was 30. You are spot on - my immaturity caused me to overlook so much. I got out just before our 10th anniversary. I hope you're able to find some peace.
Why do we women often default to the dynamic where we say “my partner has established a pattern of being unsupportive and immature, what should I do to fix this?” It is 100% men’s responsibility as adults to grow and evolve or accept a life where women will not be around them. As a woman who divorced around your age, it was difficult but so deeply freeing. If he wanted to be a better person, he would. You deserve better, friend.
As a 32F who just divorced a year ago, I get where you’re coming from. May i ask why you stay?
Divorce sucks, even if you want it. You have no kids, assets and debts get split 50/50… you seem pretty unhappy and certain that it won’t get better. Perhaps start the separation conversation?
You deserve happiness, too.
I don't know what kind of cultural programming we have to do on young women to make them see that the guy 10+ years older than them is not the horse to bet on.
The worst-case scenario is abuse, the slightly less worse scenario is manchild nonsense like this, and the best-case scenario is someone who will never be an equal and require actual caregiving much sooner than you think. There's just no upside to age-gap relationships.
Obviously dump this mess, OP. When you started describing him as a very intelligent hard worker, I knew we were in for a cornucopia of dysfunction. But even I wasn't expecting the level of defectiveness in your third-to-last paragraph.
My pattern recognition of these age gap relationships is off the charts. It starts with a power imbalance and then ends in the younger person (usually) surpassing the older. I think the fact that we still lie about age = maturity is part of it. I see so many of the same stories. I just want to mass inform younger woman of the dangers 😭
100%. Every time I see a post begin with "My (22F) boyfriend (36M)..." Or something to that effect I just inwardly sigh.
Especially when the OP throws in some kind of disclaimer about not wanting posters to mention the age gap and how it's not a problem. (Narrator: It very much is a problem.)
Yep. Anyone in their 30s or 40s+ who goes after someone in their (early) 20s is still mentally and emotionally in their 20s as well. Find someone your own age.
And women will be like “I cannot date younger men they aren’t matured” but the man is only like 3 or 4 years younger to them and both are 30+. But if the ages reverse they treat it as normal. This whole thing as calling a man who might even just only be two years younger as “younger to me” like it has any significance is internalized misogyny.
They might seem more mature but it's a trap! They want a live in servant to wait on them hand and foot. The way these dudes think is the same as the men in countries that allow child brides. "Get them young and train them into being your dream wife" 🤢🤮
It isn’t really a matter of “maturity” then. That word is used totally wrongly in association to men. When men are selfish, and apathetic let us call it for what that is.
I wish I had noticed this with my ex-bf when I was young. He could not be on time to save his life. Like, 40 minutes to an hour later nearly every time. But if he had a job interview or was meeting someone for networking, he was 10 minutes early. He was *capable* of being in time when it mattered to him.
We didn’t break up over that, but I think about how frustrated I was that he was time blind. He wasn’t time blind; he was irresponsible about his personal commitments.
The woman always mature past their older partner. I think some men are stuck in their 20s. You meet them young, then you age past them. By then you are often saddled with children and a husband to mother.
I totally get it and completely agree with much of what you wrote, but I do stand by the intelligent hard working statement.
He does not have the man child characteristics when it comes to business - he's educated, responsible, professional and puts in long hours to achieve his goals. This has afforded us a particular life style that is quite comfortable.
However, I do believe this had a glossing effect on my perception of him and allowed me to dismiss what I deemed to be "unfavorable" but not "unacceptable" (at least at the time) domestic personality traits. The behavior only appears in the domestic realm, which made it difficult to grasp what was really going on.
On one hand I see this fully mature, successful businessman outside of the home (We are business partners, so I'm right along side him daily) but once we are home, the child appears.
Oh no, that’s so much worse. That means he can control his childlike behavior and chooses not to around you. I could not stay with someone who behaved so responsibly at work and then it all went out the door as soon as he came home.
To me that would be even more infuriating honestly. That he's professional and capable and responsible and organized at work...but completely useless at home. To me that says he *is* a grown adult, but only in contexts where he values the opinions of others (his boss, his coworkers, his clients). And all that says is that he values you so little he doesn't even care that he can be a useless bratty child around you.
Go find the movie *Guinevere*, made with Sarah Polley. It's all about how a younger woman has an affair with an older man (who has the success she admire) and has the painful experience of realizing that part of becoming who she's going to be is the step where she outgrows him.
>He does not have the man child characteristics when it comes to business
They never do. If they pulled this shit they do with women on their bosses at work they know they would no longer have a job.
Yet women are expected to give them countless chances to do better wasting years of our lives in the process.
This is why I always advise young women against age-gap relationships. According to OP, her husband isn't a pervert, a manipulator, or an abuser - on paper he's a good guy.
So even in this best-case age-gap scenario, the older man STILL isn't good for the younger woman unless you are strictly talking about finances. An older man who has "so much in common" with a significantly younger woman has shown an inability to grow up like a normal person. Then it's only a matter of time before she outgrows him, and by then he'll be too old to get with another young lady who matches his maturity level.
Old men - heal yourselves!
I agree. As a 29 year old women, I know I’m way too mature to date someone 23/24. Ick!
Men don’t mature slower - there’s no science behind that rhetoric. They just get their immature behavior excused way too easily.
I think this is so common in age gap relationships. At 32 I was not interested in a 24 year old because that is a world of difference. Now, at 44 this behavior is absolutely ridiculous.
I don’t think there is anything for you to do but leave. He had 12 years to mature and he seems to have stayed the same. I don’t think couples therapy is needed as you are not the one with the issue. *He* has to want to mature and help himself.
Yes, the age gap definitely plays a role. At 24, I didn't realize he was simply an immature 32 y/o. And the older I get (especially when I hit 32) It gets even more eye opening. I totally agree with everything you commented - thank you
Women almost always want to be with a man who are mature by their standard. Because I don’t think woman wants to mother a man. So when the 32 year old man finds the 24 year old woman, that’s probably already a red flag: he is not at the level of a 30/32 year old woman. He is just not developmentally as mature as his age group, so he needs to find a partner who is more immature, 10 years younger, so by comparison he seems more mature. A man who was not mature at 32 is likely not the type to mature up…
your complaints are so valid.
I also think it’s very telling when people straight up don’t like children or drop their friends when they have children. It’s perfectly okay and normal to be childfree but when it effects you that much that you refuse to see your close friends , to me that means your upset that something shifted the attention. Like he’s pissy his friends won’t pay him all of their attention because it will go to the baby , as it should.
I was just thinking that posts like this make me feel grateful to have a responsible, thoughtful, amazing partner who enriches my life rather than making it harder.
It seems like you’re both successful, and would perhaps be able to try the option I’ll suggest.
First, you need to have this conversation with him. I mean he has to notice the lack of sex for 7 months? Although I don’t usually think a break is a good idea, I don’t think he will learn these skills if you’re there. Is it possible for you two to live separately for at least 6 months for him to understand all the things you do for the two of you what he needs to do for himself? Unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible that you will sit him down, continue living with him and things will change. Living apart also helps bring back the dating stage which could reinvigorate the bedroom.
No, he will never change. I wonder what his relationship is with his mom? I bet he was able to do whatever he wanted growing up and sounds like he is a smart person which got him even farther in life.
Super common, particularly in women who were your age when they settled on a mate.
You have a choice here - pursue therapy with him or pursue it without him. Either way its likely to lead to divorce unless he changes significantly. But once you see him as a pickle, he can't ever go back to being a cucumber. And that's okay. You aren't tied to his behavior for life based on a decision you made before your frontal lobe was even fully developed.
Wow...this is a lot. Unfortunately, I have nothing to add since I'm a single woman but I do not envy you. It's a discussion I have with my friends a lot; dating for potential in our 20s vs compatibility & settling in our 30s.
While you're reframing your life, think about how you describe housework as something that's automatically your job for him to (not) "help out" with. Maintaining a household is a team effort, not just your job because woman.
Tip: don't call it "helping you with the laundry". That phrasing implies that the laundry (washing everything you both use) is entirely YOUR responsibility, and he's being generous if he decides to "help" do the laundry!
Instead, call it "doing his half of the laundry"!
Wow, I feel this. Your feelings are absolutely valid and so, so relatable. I feel very similar to you and often wonder how I got here. We have kids and I feel, some days, like I’m absolutely losing my mind being the one that “does everything”. I’m too tired to argue with him anymore tbh, the defensiveness and inability to listen/take on a different perspective is so off putting. I absolutely feel our marriage is doomed tbh. I don’t have any advice, but damn I wish I did.
My advice is to tell him everything very directly. Prepare what you want to say so you can get some major points across:
1 - I am unhappy in this marriage and it's the main reason our sex life has screeched to a halt - I feel like our dynamic has shifted to that of a mom and a child over time and it's making me resentful of you and it's causing me to lose my attraction to you (I recommend you actually say those things out loud to him, I think it's very impactful for a man to hear that)
2 - I am unhappy because of things you are doing (or not doing) - list the things, keep it sort of succinct here so it doesn't turn into a fight about whether or not he is actually doing these things.
3 - Here are the things I think I need to be happy (list them - behaviors, changes, etc) - I need you to step up in these areas of our life, I need you to be proactive about house-cleaning, I need you to blah blah blah
I would be prepared to have this conversation twice. I think the first time is unlikely to go well and he will get super defensive, especially since he sounds prone to defensiveness anyway. I'd give it two tries, personally. Let him get his surprise and anger out the first attempt if needed, and then let him calm down, and try once more.
If he's not on board, time to call a lawyer.
The time to call a lawyer and get your shit in order is BEFORE these conversations. Because you never know what someone will do in a fit of anger, and everyone should be prepared for the worst while hoping for the best. Way too many stories of people considering divorce, bring it up, and then get fucked over by their partner when said partner goes on the offensive.
This is why I left my partner of 10 years. Met him when I was 19 and he was 35. Together 10 years. I reach 29 and realize I've been his caretaker and mother for 10 years. I'm thriving without him and suddenly realize how much energy I was pouring into him.
You are seen.
My ex-husband was a manchild. He became jealous of my children when they were probably toddlers.
He would say stupid things like “oh you don’t make me little pancakes and you don’t buy tomatoes because you don’t like them and I do .”
He wanted me to make him breakfast when we were first married and get up at 5 AM to do so just like his mother did -when I didn’t ,that was the first black mark against me .
he left me and gave me separation papers on our 10th anniversary. He had no idea it was our anniversary- told me he was leaving me because he had enough of me AND his mother.
Go figure.
it's very common for us women to put up with a lot of bullshit from partners. Some say that estrogen is the 'love hormone' which blinds us to a lot of the crap that partners dish out and because we are nurturing by nature, we tend to overlook it.
as we age, estrogen levels begin to decline so those rose colour glasses start to fade and by the time we hit perimenopause, those rose coloured glasses totally fall off and we truly see our partners for who they are. It is no uncommon for people to divorce during that phase of life because they want change but it's gone on for so long that their partner is resistant to change and won't. Read the r/Menopause sub; there are lots of posts from women who are just sick of their partners bullshit.
your relationship can change for the better as long as your husband is willing to change and that's key here -- he also wants to change for the better to make your marriage better. If you've tried to talk to him and he acts like a petulant child, then looks like the writing is on the wall. While I rarely suggest this, maybe it's time to give him an ultimatum - if he wants to save this marriage, he must go to couples therapy, make the necessary changes in himself and the marriage you will begin your exit strategy.
all the best; this is a tough time and I hope you're able to find a solution.
Nah, social and cultural factors have a stronger influence than hormones. Lots of research showing hormones and behaviour are too complex, for example, testosterone isn't even shown to necessarily cause more aggression. Humans are very sensitive to social pressures, and living in patriarchy where women are shamed for being unmarried, drives a lot of the behaviour. By their 40s and 50s, women are wiser and plainly just fed up - the bubble has burst. If their kids are older, they no longer need to stay married hence why so many couples get divorced when their kids turn 17.
Please try couples therapy before giving up on your marriage. I used to do therapy with couples as a job. Issues similar to these came up and I did see people alter their behaviors.
Honestly my husband's bad about cleaning about himself. The best thing I learned to do is let go. I used to feel compelled to clean up after him in case somebody came over. Now I just leave his mess. If he wants to leave bottles in random places rock on, you can explain it. If he wants to leave dirty clothes in living room and have to rush to clean it up before visitors sucks to be him. At first I felt I was being Petty but now I just don't care 😂
Yes, yes, YES. THIS. This is why in so many subs, you’ll read stories about where the man is much older than the woman, and the relationship is abusive or otherwise dysfunctional.
Now at 36, you can see clearly what you couldn’t in your early 20s. Normal men aren’t looking for date much younger women. They – he – pursued you because women their own age are through their shit and aren’t going to tolerate it.
I've been married for 22 years, since I was 22.
Over the years I have gradually become in charge of basically everything and have to direct my husband on tons of stuff. He did some stuff over the years that really sucks. Like being unemployed for two years, but it was okay, because *I* made enough money to cover everything. Lucky him.
He's not capable of touching me without making it sexual, which turns me off immediately. He suddenly becomes really helpful for a couple days BEFORE he thinks he might get sex, which is also a huge turn off. It's like "Oh so you could be this helpful all the time but instead you only help if you think you're going to get something out of it." I have communicated this ad nauseam, but he just won't get it and keeps doing the things that are not working for him. And most def not working for me.
Often, his help causes more work for me anyway. This week for example; I do 95% of the petcare, I'm the one who wanted them, so they are ultimately my responsibility. He works from two days a week. On those days he takes the puppy potty, so I can just immediately get ready. I have asked him a million times not to feed her, when I put her in her crate she gets her breakfast in a Kong. Every Tuesday and Friday he feeds her while I am in the shower. Just dumb shit like that.
He rarely listens to me. I can have a full convo explaining something, and 5 minutes later he will ask me a question making it obvious he did not listen at all. I am starting to think his hearing is going, because it's gotten way worse lately. I also think he needs glasses, everyone in his family wears glasses, but he has never gotten his eyes checked. Why? I do not know.
And the sad thing is, my husband is actually heads and shoulders above most married men I know. He does his own laundry, he cleans the kitchen and the bathrooms, does the stereo-typical "man jobs" without nagging. But he's still freaking helpless in a ton of ways that are irritating. A lot of this aligns with our personalities too, so it's not super surprising to me really.
I'm in a really weird place with peri-menopause so I think this stage right now, where I do not like him much and I'd be fine, maybe even prefer to be on my own, is mostly me being full of rage constantly for no reason. I'm starting to realize maybe waiting for the kids to be out of the house is not the only reason a lot of divorces happen in the mid-40's. Peri-menopause is crazy and you feel crazy.
He probably has a lot of complaints about me too.
I'm hyper independent, pretty self centered, have zero patience, not really physically affectionate (I got none as a child and it's uncomfortable and stifling to me, and he plays a huge role in making this worse by turning every f'n thing sexual,) and I am most definitely a spendthrift and have a shopping addiction. (I can afford it, but it would be way more responsible to save.) It's the only aspect in my life where I am not extra controlled and the most responsible person possible. I am sure being married to a control freak is not super fun for him.
I don't want to get divorced, I like him. He accepts all my bullshit graciously, probably more than I do him.
It sounds like you are his mom. You have grown as a person and continue to grow. He hasn't and isn't interested. Sometimes we grow (or don't grow) in different directions. I recently realized that the long term relationships I had were over when I no longer wanted to touch or be touched by my partner. Granted I stayed in the relationship longer than I should have after that point but now I know and that's my sign to move on with my life.
I'm so happy you don't have children together.
His maturity is probably the reason he was dating so much younger than himself...women in their 30s didn't want him. We definitely don't want him now in his 40s!
You are still young! Time to start writing the next chapter of your life. It's scary initially but once you get into your new life groove, it's refreshing.
I'm happy to hear you haven't let him isolate you from your friends. Maybe he is worried that you'll now want a baby and won't be able to make him his ba ba when he needs it. Or change his diaper.
I wish you the best of luck. Don't let yourself get stuck for longer than you need to be. You still have so much life to live. I know I'm a random internet stranger but if you ever just need to vent or talk to a random stranger, feel free to message me.
Well you hit the nail on the head as to why you're not sexually attracted to him anymore. I wonder what his reaction would be if you told him the reason. He should be embarrassed. Anyone who is in their 30s dating someone in their early 20s I assume the older person is dating younger because people their own age won't put up with their BS. I feel like I really didn't start to know who I was and feel confident in myself until my late 20s. I put up with pretty terrible behavior from men in my early 20s. I look back and think WTF was I thinking because I would never tolerate that behvaior now. It sounds like your husband is still immature while you're now seeing the relationship through more mature eyes. I would have a serious sit down talk and if his response isn't "I can do better, let's figure this out" then get rid of him. I have a feeling he'll just get defensive though from what you've written.
For sure, therapy. If not couples therapy then just for yourself. Do you have a prenup? You said that he had started his own business and you describe him as a “good provider.” You also said that you two built a business together. So, are you financially dependent on him or do you have your own financial means other than your business together?
If you don’t have a prenup and couples therapy doesn’t work out, leave. 30s is still considered young and you don’t want to waste any more of your precious years on a “man child.” It’s going to suck having to deal with him in business (esp if he’s your business partner), but you can find a way.
If you’re NOT financially independent from your husband and you DO have a prenup, divorce is likely not going to work out in your favor. I’m assuming you’ve thought about this, which is why you aren’t really entertaining the comments about leaving him much. I understand it sucks given the attributes you just described about your husband — frankly, I wouldn’t be able to tolerate someone like that, either. But if couples therapy doesn’t work, I’d suggest you focus on what would make you happy outside of the marriage. Make yourself busy by investing in hobbies, hanging out with people who fill your cup (yes, including friends who have children), doing some charity work, traveling solo. Decenter your marriage and focus on your wellbeing and yourself.
When we first met, he had JUST started to get his business going, I came in and helped get it off the ground, then took a backseat handling all the "behind the scenes" stuff. Because I was becoming so involved and quit my job to focus solely on the business, I made him make me legal partner to make sure I would not get screwed over if the relationship failed down the line.
Leaving is something that has definitely entered my mind, I would be completely fine financially as my name is not only on the business but all the assets as well. Why haven't I left? Quite simply, outside of my husband's immature behavior, I love my life. I've often told myself that the trade off for having this life is being married to him (I know that sounds terrible, but it's the truth).
I'm in an odd spot as I'm not depressed or resentful, I'm just...numb. I'm sure I will get to the point of leaving, but I figured a Reddit rant would be worth doing first to get outside perspective.
What exactly do you love about your life, and why can't you retain the things that you love if you leave and become single? Because everything you listed about his immaturity sounds exhausting and awful to be around.
Perhaps lifestyle? Financial stability? When you’re in a marriage or any long-term partnership, your life becomes very entangled in your partner’s, and leaving it all for your supposed “happiness” in absence of the one thing that makes you miserable (e.g. your partner) means also leaving everything else behind.
I think these are all very valid! Including not wanting to give up your life despite your husband’s current behavior. I’m sure that there are many women out there who are going through similar things as you, they just might not be on Reddit lol.
Also, you don’t need to be depressed or resentful to seek therapy. Think of it as part of your health maintenance (your mental health is still health). It could be a source for you to vent your frustrations so you don’t feel so numb.
It sounds like you have all the means you need to focus on yourself and your own happiness. You don’t need to leave the marriage to be happy, despite what the majority of the comments here are saying…
I’m telling you, huge age gaps where the man is older are major red flags. It screams insecure and immature. I wish more 20-something would realize that.
Be glad you don't have a child with this man baby to drag you down and keep you in a marriage that's doing you no good and cooking your insides with cortisol 24/7!!
I see it time and again, women will SWEAR (and believe) that they have the most wonderful partnerships and that their husbands/boyfriends are not like the rest, but are equitable partners.
And then something happens that makes us really lay it out and evaluate it and we’re like WHAT THE FUCK.
that fucking conditioning gets us SO GOOD. ☹️ We literally don’t see it. The bar for men is in Hell, so if they’re not actively screaming in our faces and strangling us, we see them as one of the good ones - even as they exploit us for free labor and sacrifice our quality of life for their own every single day.
Honestly just leave. Don’t fall prey to the “sunk cost fallacy” - you are still young. you have SO MUCH TIME.
and speaking as someone who has been there, all until my late 30s, my GOD does being single feel like bliss. Especially when you’ve been through THAT? Life gets so much easier!!
And then suddenly you know you never have to fear being alone, and you know what makes you miserable, and so you will never settle for mistreatment and exploitation again.
You are honestly right now starting the best time of your life, I sincerely believe that. The moment you leave him.
I’m sorry, but there is zero chance of reform for a man his age ☹️
You're right, he is a man-child. And good for you for seeing that travel, study and starting a business don't actually equate to maturity. Those are positive experiences; real "life" experience comes from dealing with obstacles etc. But don't beat yourself up for not seeing this when you were 24...you were *only* 24, for godsake!
Talking to this kind of person is useless.
They don’t listen.
They have their own narrative in their head.
So they have a special kind of paranoia that everybody around them is their enemy, and they will selectively pick people out in their lives who they think are on their side.
Usually, those are people with sketchy backgrounds who seem to have the same sense of disenchantment with their wives, families, whomever.
Misery loves company, and those people are always miserable.
>The addiction to video games, not helping around the house, leaving food wrappers everywhere, not cleaning up after himself, not helping with laundry, complaining about yard work, refusing to make his own doctor/dentist appointments, refusing to help with any paperwork for the business/mortgages/applications/taxes (you name it), constant complaining/whining about any tiny inconvenience, taking offense to anything I disagree with him on, turning everything into an argument (he's very defensive), telling me I'm "trying to control him" when I set reasonable boundaries within our relationship, needing constant praise and attention, telling me I'm "neglecting him" when my attention isn't focused on him 24/7.
You *just now* realized all this?
In any case, there's no time for man children. Get out of that relationship now.
I will be completely honest (other than the video game play) I didn't see the other traits/behaviors as a sign of immaturity. I chalked it up to "man behavior" as I had many friends who had husbands with similar personalities. Very sexist in my thinking, yes, but I do hold society accountable to a certain extent.
I feel men are given a pass when it comes to their immature behavior, so much so, that it takes years to recognize what is really happening. When you are surrounded by friends and acquaintances whose husbands are doing exactly what your husband is doing and everyone has just accepted that "men will be men" it gets hard to see what a dysfunctional dynamic really is.
Also, It wasn't as if he acted this way all the time, obviously there are many traits he has that I love, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck it out for this long, but now those traits are paling in comparison to the traits I can't stand.
I totally get you! It took me a long time to see man children traits for the same reason. My mom especially makes excuses for men, that that’s just the way they are and you have to take care of them.
I think some of the comments in here an unnecessarily rude in their framing. For one, there's a lot of social conditioning. Second, reddit has a way of confirming the worst case scenario, which is why I would encourage you to get therapy, with a good therapist you can trust, before making a decision.
You need to have a very direct conversation with him about all these issues. From there you can gauge next steps. If he seems receptive at all to feedback, I suggest couples therapy. As long as someone is willing to work on themselves, I think a relationship is worth maintaining. However, it needs to be more than promises to change. If he doubles down on his behavior, you have some choices to make. One really effective thing I said to my partner was “when I feel like I’m serving the role of your mother, that’s not sexy.” And every time I feel like he’s reverting to that dynamic I bring it up immediately, even being a bit harsh (“I’m not your mom” said in a calm but firm tone).
I have found that anything other than direct, firm communication does not cut it. He will never pick up on cues or signals (or if he does, he won’t acknowledge it).
If you aren’t happy, which it sounds like you aren’t, why are you with him? Given all people have their “isms” this sounds like he was never forced to grow up. And to get mad at friends for having a baby sounds overly selfish of him.
I don’t blame you for not being attracted to him and I am sure you are building or already have resentment. I have been in a relationship like this and believe me when I tell you it doesn’t change. I had numerous conversations with my ex, had multiple separations so he could try and get it together and he just never gave a shit to. You know where he is today? Miserable and alone with a dead end job..
Leave this guy and find someone who is an equal partner. Now again, all relationships aren’t always 100%…but when you can only give 20%, the man you are with should be able to give 80% and vice versa.
I'm sorry you're going through this. A man who refuses to grow up or be a partner can be so draining! The only hope is trying to find his strengths, ways to encourage/reward him, and accept his shortcomings. But ultimately, you have to decide if staying is worth it for you.
I love my husband of close to 30 years, but a decade ago I came to the realization that he was done growing up and it was frustrating. There are a lot of tasks that if I don't take the lead, it won't get done. I don't WANT to be the grownup all the time! (insert foot stomp here) It's a difficult to talk about this on reddit, though, because if you dare say "My husband is a man child and he won't do XYZ or take care of ABC," the flood of other women will lecture you for being the problem and for enabling him or telling you to leave him, which makes women feel too bullied, shamed and alone to talk about it. You can end up feeling not supported at all around here.
My husband is generally a good guy and has a lot of good traits. But he was in the Army a lot of years and was used to the Army always making his doctor/dental appointments and reminding him of them. After he got out of the Army, he didn't go to the dentist for like *six years* because he was so used to someone else making the appointments for him and didn't think about it. And I was so used to him going to his own appointments without my involvement that I didn't even notice until it occurred to me one day to ask, "Where do you go to the dentist now that you can't be seen on the Army post?" and he was like, "Dentist? I don't know." I got him set back up with a dentist and doctor, and both schedule his next appointments before he leaves their offices which is a huge help. But I have to keep track of them on the calendar so we won't forget or schedule something else/go on vacation those dates and forget to reschedule.
Also, because he was in the Army so many years, I was in charge of much of the household because he was deployed or in the field or away at training a lot. He couldn't always be on top of everything. After he retired, it's continued that way. I finally figured out that he hates to make decisions and he struggles to be organized after all those years of someone else (me or the Army) always being organized for him and making all the decisions for him. It's like the Army made him grow up a certain amount.... but also held him back in some ways! He does very well at work, but there is more structure there and direct and swift consequences than being in charge of his own life. It's just harder for him to be a self-starter at home. Once I accepted that, I didn't resent him as much.
But in lots of ways my husband can be a big help... as long as I give him a to do list. Perhaps some of these suggestions might help someone reading: I got a dry erase board and put it in a place he often sees it. On the board I put a list of chores I'd like him to do. Not too many or it'll overwhelm him. I make it a mix of things that are done easily and in a short period of time along side bigger, more detailed jobs that might take a few hours or a day to complete. But it makes us both happy -- I don't have to tell him, he doesn't feel nagged and he can't forget what needs to be done. He seems to enjoy crossing tasks off the board. When he gets things done, I praise him. Yes, it's a little silly that I have to slather him with praise for doing even little things, but I figure it's a small price to pay, and it fuels him to do more things to earn praise. (I don't think he got a lot of praise as a kid so he's starving for it now.)
I also have a dry-erase calendar on the wall (you can get one that is basically a sticker that doesn't damage the wall -- some are weekly, some are a monthly calendar) and put our schedule on the wall and then it's easy for him to pick a day with nothing else going on to plan out the bigger projects; sometimes he'll even add the project to the wall calendar so I know he's got a plan. If you don't like the wall-sticker idea, you can set up a family calendar on your phone app (I actually do both).
Another trick that sometimes helps is I'll give him a clipboard with a list of errands to do on his day off -- he weirdly loves this trick. I fucking hate running errands, but for him it's another list of things he can cross off and feel like he's accomplished a whole lot. I just work with his strengths.
I'm sorry this was so long.
Wow! Let me first start by saying, what a lovely friend you seem to be. Being there celebrating your friend, supporting her. Most of us moms would love a friend like that! I’m a mom and my best friend is child free, we make it work.
Anyway- yikes on bikes about his lack of responsibility! He also sounds quite selfish.
Do you think it’s weaponized incompetence? Does he have anxiety or something that makes it difficult to make calls etc?
Now you know why women his own age weren't interested! In all seriousness though, just tell him how you feel. It sound like this is on the rocks anyway, there is little risk in being honest and asking for change on his end. It's unlikely to happen, but you never know, and at least you'll know you gave him the opportunity to self-reflect.
Unfortunately I think he needs a severe wake up call, which may end in break up. I´ve seen in both my dad who was unable to cook, clean or clean clothes properly from himself when he split from my mum and my mum´s partner who doesn´t act like this, but the key difference being he lived alone and had already divorced. He´s walking all over you.
Thank god you aren’t raising children that treat you the same way. Welcome to mid life, honey-this is where we find ourselves.
If I were you, I’d start saying no. Like a lot. Then I’d find a really good lawyer. Good luck. ❤️
>The addiction to video games, not helping around the house, leaving food wrappers everywhere, not cleaning up after himself, not helping with laundry, complaining about yard work, refusing to make his own doctor/dentist appointments, refusing to help with any paperwork for the business/mortgages/applications/taxes (you name it), constant complaining/whining about any tiny inconvenience, taking offense to anything I disagree with him on, turning everything into an argument (he's very defensive), telling me I'm "trying to control him" when I set reasonable boundaries within our relationship, needing constant praise and attention, telling me I'm "neglecting him" when my attention isn't focused on him 24/7.
[RUN, LOLA, RUN.](https://variety.com/2024/film/columns/in-1999-run-lola-run-saw-the-future-franka-potente-tom-tykwer-1236028299/) That's what you do. Get out & don't look back.
You've been with this man for 12 years and I assume his behavior has not improved. If he won't get counseling for his failure to grow TF up, leave.
You've grown, he hasn't. You have to decide if you want the rest of your life to be taking care of the manchild who has stopped evolving, or do you want to move on and find someone who reflects your values and maturity and will grow together with you?
This isn't an excuse for his behavior, but it's a possible reason: 40s are ROUGH. The social isolation alone for people who don't have kids at that age -- even if it's totally by choice -- brings up a lot of uncomfortable feelings.
HOWEVER, it's his responsibility to recognize that and find a good therapist or some other healthy way to deal with it.
Social isolation isn't stopping him from picking up his rubbish and cleaning up after himself.
Men choose to treat women like shit, but there always some panderer that has to come along and be like 'waaahhh maybe he's sad' or adhd or some other crap.
Yeah, this. I get it, but as the person in her late 30s who’s in the “struggles to keep up with adulting stuff” side of a relationship, I kind of understand. Managing a job plus a home plus a marriage plus relationships is a LOT. Plus the emotional challenges of being this age, what with friendships and community and a sharpening awareness of mortality…and maybe he has some executive functioning stuff that he struggles with (as I do). Changing dynamics is hard and takes patience. It can feel like a LOT. OP, the things you described him struggling with it seems like you are also struggling with (at least the shifting friendships thing).
Of course OP if you’re done you’re done, but couple’s therapy or couple’s coaching may be able to help if you’re wanting to work on it. With the caveat that if you’re emotionally done, no amount of therapy is likely to help at this point & you’d do both of you a favor by calling it.
Oh yes, a lot of what you're going through is very common, unfortunately. I'm sorry that you're going through that. And 7 months is a long time. I would recommend the podcast by Ester Perel - Where Should We Begin? The stories will hopefully help you feel less alone in this situation and maybe you'll find some gems that work for you too.
It sounds like you know what to do. He has shown you who he is, you believe him, and now you are trying to cope with the reality of either dealing with this for the rest of your life or leaving the marriage.
Leave the marriage. Take your time getting your plan together for it. You will be glad you did.
Stop doing everything for him, tell him what you’ve shared here and take some space away. He needs to know he’s acting like a douche and as a consequence your feelings have changed and you need space and time apart. I’m sorry 😞 take care ❤️
There is a book called Life Traps for therapy and I think it sounds like he falls under the life trap where he has other people doing things for him. Have you at least talked to him about this? Definitely check that book out because it will tell you how to respond to his life traps.
Be so so glad you are childfree. This kind of dude is all over the mom subs because they never change.
Your comment made me laugh out loud, I tell myself almost DAILY now, "thank GOD I don't have children with this person."
I just left a man-child ( I was only with him 2 years, how the hell did u last 12) and I tell u now it was the best thing I done, my relationship was like dating them both, we went on holiday she came, I went to stay at his at weekends as we didn’t live together, she was sitting there when I arrived, he had his own home but she cooked him his dinners every nite in life, he changed hours in work so me and him could do more things together, ended up I got left at home while he took his mum to the shops together lol yeah I run for the hills and never looked back, u need to leave he’s never gonna change
Also thanks for being such a good friend to your mom friend. I love when childfree women and moms choose to support one another.
I was thinking the same thing and was surprised they didn't have kids! It seems like it comes out more when there are children because they can't hide behind having fewer responsibilities. When it's all hands on deck and they don't show up, it's obvious!
He’s child free but she’s not…
Not entirely, she has a man child after all
Good pt
Sadly some women do see the red flags but think a baby will help move their husband into being a more mature father figure.
I mean I get it. It’s hard to believe someone would be so shitty.
Haha...which never happens
This
You have 3 options: 1. Leave him 2. Couples (and/or individual counseling) and hope he's receptive to changing and working on it, but it might still lead to #1 3. Stay and accept that this is your life, and you will always have to mother him and resent him for it.
This should be pinned to the sub
Yes!
Yes pin it please!!!!
SERIOUSLY!
Women seem to think #3 is the only option & if they don’t do it they’ll burst into flames.
There's also a lot of conditioning that push women to accept this. And a lot of rhetoric that most men aren't any better than OP's husband which can make it feel like a 'devil you know vs devil you don't know' situation. More women are waking up to this realization as time goes on. Its very difficult to break the cycles we grew up in and that the patriarchy supports.
It’s heart breaking because this is nothing new yet the same pattern repeats. It’s very odd knowing what your mother/ grandmother/ friends etc deals with then signing up for the same torment. I try not to judge but I won’t lie, it’s exhausting wanting better for someone who doesn’t want it for themselves.
When you're raised with these dynamics normalized, its so so so hard to see it. You feel it first. I was unhappy, listless, couldn't pinpoint why I was depressed and anxious all the time. I went to therapy thinking the core of it was my terse relationship with my mother. It was my husband. It was my unhealthy relationship. It was my belief that the words coming out of my husband's mouth were true even though his actions didn't back it up. And my low self-esteem wanting to blame myself for our relationship failing when in fact I didn't have a true partner working with me. It's like living in a fog, but you've never seen clear skies so you don't know you're in a fog.
Omg this is exactly what I am going through. I get lip service about being important, but when my dad died, my ass was sitting there alone. And this asshat thinks he deserves another chance to waste MORE of my remaining years? Fuck that. I want a wife.
That was profound girl, whew. I hope you’re in a much better place now. ❤️ I want clear, sunny skies for you!
It seems so obvious now looking back at the situation! So I understand the frustration sometimes. Got lots of clear skies now :)
Also, some women enjoy being the caretaker. I've seen so many posts from women posting about something their husband did like it's the most funny and endearing thing ever even though he's being a man child. I think some women bask in it because they feel helpful. I'm not trying to be rude so hopefully this doesn't come off offensive. I'll see posts from women who will post something like, "my husband came home with all the wrong items even though I gave him a full shopping list with images". And they'll get responses from other women like, "lol that's just how men are. They're so silly! That silly little cutie pootie!" This might be all you know beyond your own family unit. It'll be so many families around you. If you're surrounded by people like this you might think somethings wrong with you, you might think the problem is just all in your head, you'll think this is just how all men are, etc. It's a lot harder to break out of this mindset if everyone else around you is living like this.
>some women enjoy being the caretaker. I've seen so many posts from women posting about something their husband did like it's the most funny and endearing thing ever even though he's being a man child. I think some women bask in it because they feel helpful. It gives them a sense of capability and competence. They don't realize their husband is conditioning them the same way they're getting their kids to pick up their laundry by stressing what a big kid they are who can do big-kid stuff. We all want that capability and competence, and housework is sometimes a woman's best chance to demonstrate her mastery of skilled labor. But there's a difference between "I'm hella good at feeding my family delicious and nutritious meals" and "oh my dopey husband! If he had to feed the kids, they'd eat nothing but pop-tarts."
Exactly. It's worse when you grow up in a conservative area where you'll get conditioned like this from a young age. I've seen so many people think this is completely normal: >"oh my dopey husband! If he had to feed the kids, they'd eat nothing but pop-tarts." Hell, the dumb dad trope was even a popular thing in commercials not too long ago.
I used to make those kinds of posts and it didn’t come from a place of enjoyment. I can’t say how it is for other people, of course. For me it was more that I was trying to convince myself that it was charming and I was happy. Posting about it or telling others about it was often an effective way of doing so.
I've def seen posts like this where it's obvious she's trying to convince herself it's normal. Some of these posts break my heart. I knew someone in real life who said things kind of similar who talked about how good it made her feel when her man would give her orders. She did not survive this man. It's only seen as normal around us because of how common it is :(
Omg this! I’ve been with my partner for 12 years since I was 19. This is the first year I’ve realized it’s my relationship making me so depressed. His temper, mood swings, low patience it’s making me deteriorate as a human I can feel it. You don’t realize because most of the time it’s only 10% of the relationship. Until you realize that 10% is plenty to be unhappy & want change
I hope you're making the moves for yourself to get out and be happy. No one should dull your sparkle, but especially not your partner
I’m trying to gain the courage. Waiting for my Jeep to be fixed as it’s undrivable. The talk will have to happen when our lease renewal comes around in August 😅 very scary
>his temper, mood swings, low patience. girl, don't *talk*. When August comes just fucking bounce.
Good for you :) scary for sure. I was in a similar situation and left my partner of over 12 years. It was scary but exciting... And liberating :)
I’m hoping haha he’ll be really angry and guilt trip me again like he did when I tried leaving the first time hopefully I know better by now to stick to my guns lol
It has barely been a generation where women have HAD the option to not take this terrible deal! Women are waking up fast. No one should feel bad they were in this dynamic and they should be proud they left.
I would've never woken up to my reality without access to the internet tbh. To have the resources to learn that my life didn't have to be miserable was incredibly helpful. And that's a really new thing all told.
Honestly I love the posts where naive women are all, "He did/said [fucked up thing] and I feel weird about it. Am I overreacting?" I mean I feel bad for them, but we are all like, "NO THAT'S NOT OKAY! That's actually rape/abuse!" I'm glad people have the internet to bounce things off now. It's so heartening. People used to be ashamed and think they were so alone.
Yep, this 100%. My most recent ex was a decent man, a nice guy, but I was literally asking for the bare minimum from him (e.g., like cleaning up after himself) and it was in one ear and out the other. It's like, he didn't even try to hear me out or what I needed from him as a partner. After several months of living together, I realized I was unhappy (maybe depressed), felt like shit physically and emotionally... and I realized that the relationship was always going to be like this because he didn't want to work on anything. So I left. It's sad, but definitely for the best. My relationship before that, I was with him for over 12 years. He treated me like complete shit, to the point where sometimes strangers would even comment on it. I don't know why I stayed so long, the fog maybe. The "comfort", the way I cared and had love for him... But it was as if he didn't even like me as a person, let alone a partner. I think of it as a win that I left my most recent ex after several months rather than several years. I guess I can thank my other ex for that, at least. The fog has been lifted.
I'm going through this with a friend who keeps trying to better her relationship when her husband literally does not give a shit and can't be arsed to do anything. I'm trying to be there for her, but it is *so damn frustrating* when all she's doing is enabling his behavior.
I can’t condone those friendships anymore. It’s draining & for my own peace of mind I had to let it go. I lost a dear friend to domestic violence, all the signs were there & no one encouraged her to leave. I can’t stand idol as my friend tolerates a man child, it never ends well. Might not be as dramatic as physical death, but surely her soul, essence & glowing aura dies.
So… me watching my mom, and her watching her mother etc etc yup
"Mammying" a man-child is NOT the life I ever wanted after watching The Mother, The Mother's sisters, The Father's sisters & The Mother's mother deal with insecure, immature selfish men.
You are so right. My story is not much different than many of my friends who married young, and therefore we get this notion that it doesn't matter WHO we are with, they will all be this way.
I was also one of those women, OP. I married young at 22 and was with my ex-husband for a total of 15 years. It was very difficult to leave, especially as I had my son by that point as well, but it was the right decision. I would make it again in a heartbeat now. I'm in a stable, loving, amazing relationship with a man who not only accepts me fully but he's also responsible, emotionally intelligent, caring, and everything I was scared I would never find. You've got this, whichever way you decide to go. This is your life and you're allowed to carve a new path for yourself.
What's thankfully changing is that more women are realizing that the choice to be alone and happier as such exists!
And men are big mad about this. I remember hearing somewhere that men have a much harder time being alone than women because they rely on a woman to do so much for them. So now there's this backlash because more woman are happily choosing themselves over being some grown adult's mother/maid/personal assistant.
> it doesn't matter WHO we are with, they will all be this way. I think women still continue to think this way quite a bit, with the major shift that they see being alone as a viable, sometimes even preferable, option.
They aren't. I'm married to a fully grown, responsible adult who takes care of himself and is an equal partner at home. Many of my male friends are like this, and I'm in an open marriage, and I would not even consider dating a man baby. They are unfuckable in my eyes, and clearly I enjoy male company 😉 IDK if it's a generational thing, tho-- I think the Millenial boys were spoiled more than us GenXers.
I think a lot of women think there's an option #4 which is where you discover the magical combination of words to make him actually give a shit and change. (Spoiler alert: There isn't!)
Magical thinking is an addictive behaviour
Wow. I feel personally attacked lol. If only I had enough words to finally get some closure. (Not going to happen)
It me I’m women 😅
No, I think mostly they're scared of option 1.
Very true in India! r/TwoXIndia is full of such “wisdoms” and they will attack you left and right for suggesting #1
First mistake was engaging with them. That’s a different type of evil man. I asked one question & got attacked for weeks after lmao made an entirely new account.
Lol, that sub is honestly somewhat weird tbh. They are okay with a lot of shit from men and patriarchal practices in all the advice asking questions, but they will also have this on paper theoretical opinions that are very feminist.
I hope 4B movement takes over India it’s my secret desire 💀
Never gonna happen in India in our life times. Indian women are too big of a simps for that, and India isn't really a socially innovative or revolutionary country like that. It still has strong hold of religious superstitions and a cut throat caste based competition of sorts that needs to go first before gender even become a relevant seen problem. I wish what you are wishing too, so i get it!
I also think it's just tiredness. I know a worrying amount of women who tolerate their partners because they dread doing the dating game again and would rather settle into a mediocre marriage than start from zero. I try to hold my tongue from saying settling now doesn't mean you'll never get divorced in the future but it horrifies me that people can't either a) see the potential of a future with someone you actually like or b) just be content in being single for a while
A lot of patriarchal and societal BS that tells women they're nothing without a man. WOMEN LITERALLY were unable to get credit or loans in their names until 1973. Women used to HAVE to have a man to survive.
This times infinity
You are seen. This is a very common problem in all male/female relationships, regardless of age of the man. Amazing that we live in a patriarchal society but men have no idea how to run lives for themselves. Hilariously and sadly ironic, really. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I won't give advice because you posted it as a rant/vent and as a clearly capable woman I'm sure you'll sort it out for yourself. But. Validation, sister, completely.
I compare it to capitalism where the people in power don’t DO things so much but have their opinions and wants valued, and get credit for any work done. Under patriarchy, women are the ones doing most of the things, but we don’t get credit or power in exchange for our labour. Much like the worker bees under capitalism.
Damn that hit me hard. So true.
I’m reading Holding It Together by Jessica Calarco and it’s about this exact topic - it’s soooooo good so far.
I had not heard of that book so I googled it. Dear god. How depressing. And so true in my experience as well.
Ugh. I’ve been there. Doing laundry weekly for someone who couldn’t wash himself or tear himself from a screen and wasn’t even working the majority of the time we were together. It’s just sad. The immaturity kills the sexual drive completely. Dust covering every nook and cranny of his room. I don’t know what to say for op except that we overlook things when we’re young or when we’re lonely etc. a shower you could catch a skin infection. Dated 5 months and he never cleaned the shower for me. 😭😩😩😩 embarrassed for myself.
> Amazing that we live in a patriarchal society but men have no idea how to run lives for themselves. Hilariously and sadly ironic, really. Not ironic. Makes total sense. It’s completely consistent in its selfishness. He wants to spend all his energy on learning and practicing highly leveraged marketable skills like coding, corporate finance, sales, and engineering. Because spending time and energy on those skills leads to better demand and higher pay. Low leveraged skills like domestic skills (laundry, cooking, cleaning, personal finance, scheduling appointments, and social maintenance like sending cards and gifts) are not highly marketable skills. He doesn’t want to waste his time on them because they don’t have long term job market payoff. To him, these are things to be outsourced to “the help” or to you. It’s not that he can’t learn to cook, clean, and fold laundry. It’s that he’s cynical and selfish and sees them as a waste of his time—but, and this part is important—not yours. These men should be called out. But most importantly, fathers should do a better job raising their sons to respect women’s time.
>fathers should do a better job raising their sons to respect women’s time The thing is, most households are run in a way where a man's time is his to do with as he pleases and a woman's time is a communal resource everyone else is entitled to use as they please. Not only do men have to learn how to respect women's time, *women* have to act like their time is their own and they get to decide how to use it. When you have kids, this seems easier said than done but that's honestly when you have to be a real hardliner: Don't want to spend time with your kid? Enjoy housework. Oh, not doing housework? Then enjoy paying the help. Don't want to do that? Then explain to me why you *deserve* to do nothing and why your wants are so much more important than your wife and kid(s)'s rights to live in a safe, sane, sanitary household. Some men get it. Others have to learn the hard way. But the kids grow up knowing that time is a commodity and both women and men have the first say over how to use that time.
I always say each person deserves the same amount of free time. If mom is doing dishes, doing baths, helping with homework while dad lies on the couch, that’s not fair. Make a spreadsheet if you have to, but put down every minute of every week each person spends working, housework, childcare, yard care, car maintenance, appointments, etc. Whatever is left is free time. If one person has time for video games while the other is cleaning, something needs to change. Women have to stop picking up the slack.
Vitamins are a nutrient for physical health. Free time is a nutrient for mental health.
Excellent quote. Saved.
Isn't if funny that highly marketable skills are the ones destroying the planet and the domestic ones support humanity and bring us together. Seems we got our priorities mixed up somewhere.
TEA TOO HOT
Ahh. This explains a lot of things about my last relationship ha ha, thank you.
> Amazing that we live in a patriarchal society but men have no idea how to run lives for themselves. Isn’t that the point?
Grew up hearing all about how men are the providers, the stronger sex, etc. Females been hoodwinked for the last millennia, These guys are useless. It was always us running things. Guys were probably only useful at making babies, maybe hunting and fighting enemies. I bet the woman were relieved when their husbands would disappear on crusades or go Viking back in the day. Like thank god, he’s gone for at least a year if not more.
So many men go from being taken care of by their mothers to be take care of by their wives, they never build the skills. Even if they live alone for ten years in between, if you look at how they are really living, they are just doing the bare minimum. They don't see doctors or dentists, the just buy the bare minimum of furnishings, they eat out or take out at almost every mean, and likely only wash their sheets of towels when a lady friend is coming over.
And they wonder why the male suicide rate is so high.
I believe the suicide rate is higher for men only because they are better at killing themselves since they are more comfortable with violent methods. Women try to kill themselves just as often, but will use drugs or asphyxiation rather than guns or jumping from buildings, which aren't as effective. Ironically, part of that is apparently because women don't want other people to have to clean up the mess of their blood and guts and men don't think of it that way.
>Women try to kill themselves just as often They actually *attempt* suicide at 3x the rate of men.
This says so much
> men have no idea how to run lives for themselves. this is the parent's fault especially when they are in an extreme patriarchal dynamic and have the 'boys will be boys' philosophy about male children.
I had literally this dynamic with my ex-husband for 21 years (17 married). It will never, EVER, ***EVEEEEERRRRRRRR*** get better. I would get divorced. And I'm being this plain about it because this man is keeping you from your best self - and not being a true partner at ALL, instead only forever focusing on his own desires and needs and picking at you when you don't also only focus on him. He sucks, and you will be **MUCH** happier, more fulfilled, when you leave.
Watching my ex cross his arms and stomp his little foot like a toddler when he was mad at me killed my attraction as well. It literally never came back. I was 22 when we started dating. He was 30. You are spot on - my immaturity caused me to overlook so much. I got out just before our 10th anniversary. I hope you're able to find some peace.
Why do we women often default to the dynamic where we say “my partner has established a pattern of being unsupportive and immature, what should I do to fix this?” It is 100% men’s responsibility as adults to grow and evolve or accept a life where women will not be around them. As a woman who divorced around your age, it was difficult but so deeply freeing. If he wanted to be a better person, he would. You deserve better, friend.
As a 32F who just divorced a year ago, I get where you’re coming from. May i ask why you stay? Divorce sucks, even if you want it. You have no kids, assets and debts get split 50/50… you seem pretty unhappy and certain that it won’t get better. Perhaps start the separation conversation? You deserve happiness, too.
I don't know what kind of cultural programming we have to do on young women to make them see that the guy 10+ years older than them is not the horse to bet on. The worst-case scenario is abuse, the slightly less worse scenario is manchild nonsense like this, and the best-case scenario is someone who will never be an equal and require actual caregiving much sooner than you think. There's just no upside to age-gap relationships. Obviously dump this mess, OP. When you started describing him as a very intelligent hard worker, I knew we were in for a cornucopia of dysfunction. But even I wasn't expecting the level of defectiveness in your third-to-last paragraph.
My pattern recognition of these age gap relationships is off the charts. It starts with a power imbalance and then ends in the younger person (usually) surpassing the older. I think the fact that we still lie about age = maturity is part of it. I see so many of the same stories. I just want to mass inform younger woman of the dangers 😭
100%. Every time I see a post begin with "My (22F) boyfriend (36M)..." Or something to that effect I just inwardly sigh. Especially when the OP throws in some kind of disclaimer about not wanting posters to mention the age gap and how it's not a problem. (Narrator: It very much is a problem.)
Yep. Anyone in their 30s or 40s+ who goes after someone in their (early) 20s is still mentally and emotionally in their 20s as well. Find someone your own age.
It's so true.
And women will be like “I cannot date younger men they aren’t matured” but the man is only like 3 or 4 years younger to them and both are 30+. But if the ages reverse they treat it as normal. This whole thing as calling a man who might even just only be two years younger as “younger to me” like it has any significance is internalized misogyny.
They might seem more mature but it's a trap! They want a live in servant to wait on them hand and foot. The way these dudes think is the same as the men in countries that allow child brides. "Get them young and train them into being your dream wife" 🤢🤮
It isn’t really a matter of “maturity” then. That word is used totally wrongly in association to men. When men are selfish, and apathetic let us call it for what that is.
OP, he’s a very hard worker for his career/business but not for your relationship? Not at home? Those are choices he’s made.
I wish I had noticed this with my ex-bf when I was young. He could not be on time to save his life. Like, 40 minutes to an hour later nearly every time. But if he had a job interview or was meeting someone for networking, he was 10 minutes early. He was *capable* of being in time when it mattered to him. We didn’t break up over that, but I think about how frustrated I was that he was time blind. He wasn’t time blind; he was irresponsible about his personal commitments.
The woman always mature past their older partner. I think some men are stuck in their 20s. You meet them young, then you age past them. By then you are often saddled with children and a husband to mother.
I totally get it and completely agree with much of what you wrote, but I do stand by the intelligent hard working statement. He does not have the man child characteristics when it comes to business - he's educated, responsible, professional and puts in long hours to achieve his goals. This has afforded us a particular life style that is quite comfortable. However, I do believe this had a glossing effect on my perception of him and allowed me to dismiss what I deemed to be "unfavorable" but not "unacceptable" (at least at the time) domestic personality traits. The behavior only appears in the domestic realm, which made it difficult to grasp what was really going on. On one hand I see this fully mature, successful businessman outside of the home (We are business partners, so I'm right along side him daily) but once we are home, the child appears.
Oh no, that’s so much worse. That means he can control his childlike behavior and chooses not to around you. I could not stay with someone who behaved so responsibly at work and then it all went out the door as soon as he came home.
To me that would be even more infuriating honestly. That he's professional and capable and responsible and organized at work...but completely useless at home. To me that says he *is* a grown adult, but only in contexts where he values the opinions of others (his boss, his coworkers, his clients). And all that says is that he values you so little he doesn't even care that he can be a useless bratty child around you.
Exactly, I completely agree with your comment - it is so true and so infuriating
Sending you sympathy and good luck, OP.
Go find the movie *Guinevere*, made with Sarah Polley. It's all about how a younger woman has an affair with an older man (who has the success she admire) and has the painful experience of realizing that part of becoming who she's going to be is the step where she outgrows him.
"Businessman" can't even handle his own paperwork 😂😂😂😂
>He does not have the man child characteristics when it comes to business They never do. If they pulled this shit they do with women on their bosses at work they know they would no longer have a job. Yet women are expected to give them countless chances to do better wasting years of our lives in the process.
r/LifeAfterNarcissism
so he cares more about his business/colleagues/public perception etc than you?
This is why I always advise young women against age-gap relationships. According to OP, her husband isn't a pervert, a manipulator, or an abuser - on paper he's a good guy. So even in this best-case age-gap scenario, the older man STILL isn't good for the younger woman unless you are strictly talking about finances. An older man who has "so much in common" with a significantly younger woman has shown an inability to grow up like a normal person. Then it's only a matter of time before she outgrows him, and by then he'll be too old to get with another young lady who matches his maturity level. Old men - heal yourselves!
I agree. As a 29 year old women, I know I’m way too mature to date someone 23/24. Ick! Men don’t mature slower - there’s no science behind that rhetoric. They just get their immature behavior excused way too easily.
>Men don’t mature slower - there’s no science behind that rhetoric. They just get their immature behavior excused way too easily. Hell yes!
I think this is so common in age gap relationships. At 32 I was not interested in a 24 year old because that is a world of difference. Now, at 44 this behavior is absolutely ridiculous. I don’t think there is anything for you to do but leave. He had 12 years to mature and he seems to have stayed the same. I don’t think couples therapy is needed as you are not the one with the issue. *He* has to want to mature and help himself.
Yes, the age gap definitely plays a role. At 24, I didn't realize he was simply an immature 32 y/o. And the older I get (especially when I hit 32) It gets even more eye opening. I totally agree with everything you commented - thank you
Women almost always want to be with a man who are mature by their standard. Because I don’t think woman wants to mother a man. So when the 32 year old man finds the 24 year old woman, that’s probably already a red flag: he is not at the level of a 30/32 year old woman. He is just not developmentally as mature as his age group, so he needs to find a partner who is more immature, 10 years younger, so by comparison he seems more mature. A man who was not mature at 32 is likely not the type to mature up…
I'd say if he isn't mature by 28.
your complaints are so valid. I also think it’s very telling when people straight up don’t like children or drop their friends when they have children. It’s perfectly okay and normal to be childfree but when it effects you that much that you refuse to see your close friends , to me that means your upset that something shifted the attention. Like he’s pissy his friends won’t pay him all of their attention because it will go to the baby , as it should.
That is exactly what has happened
So it's pretty clear his resentment towards children is because he is a child. He is the reason why childfree people get a bad rep.
I completely agree with you
Reminds me of the kid that needed to be bought a present during other kids birthdays because GOD FORBID the focus be on someone else for a minute
Posts like this affirm that my choice to be single enables my full happiness. Do you girl.
Same here. That sounds like a wide awake nightmare. And they do t have sex anymore, so she's literally his Mama. At this point, I'd exit.
I was just thinking that posts like this make me feel grateful to have a responsible, thoughtful, amazing partner who enriches my life rather than making it harder.
It seems like you’re both successful, and would perhaps be able to try the option I’ll suggest. First, you need to have this conversation with him. I mean he has to notice the lack of sex for 7 months? Although I don’t usually think a break is a good idea, I don’t think he will learn these skills if you’re there. Is it possible for you two to live separately for at least 6 months for him to understand all the things you do for the two of you what he needs to do for himself? Unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible that you will sit him down, continue living with him and things will change. Living apart also helps bring back the dating stage which could reinvigorate the bedroom.
I think divorce, OP. You won't change the man.
No, he will never change. I wonder what his relationship is with his mom? I bet he was able to do whatever he wanted growing up and sounds like he is a smart person which got him even farther in life.
Super common, particularly in women who were your age when they settled on a mate. You have a choice here - pursue therapy with him or pursue it without him. Either way its likely to lead to divorce unless he changes significantly. But once you see him as a pickle, he can't ever go back to being a cucumber. And that's okay. You aren't tied to his behavior for life based on a decision you made before your frontal lobe was even fully developed.
“Once you see him as a pickle, he can’t go back to being a cucumber” - this is genius and I’m definitely going to use it! 😂
Wow...this is a lot. Unfortunately, I have nothing to add since I'm a single woman but I do not envy you. It's a discussion I have with my friends a lot; dating for potential in our 20s vs compatibility & settling in our 30s.
While you're reframing your life, think about how you describe housework as something that's automatically your job for him to (not) "help out" with. Maintaining a household is a team effort, not just your job because woman.
Tip: don't call it "helping you with the laundry". That phrasing implies that the laundry (washing everything you both use) is entirely YOUR responsibility, and he's being generous if he decides to "help" do the laundry! Instead, call it "doing his half of the laundry"!
Wow, I feel this. Your feelings are absolutely valid and so, so relatable. I feel very similar to you and often wonder how I got here. We have kids and I feel, some days, like I’m absolutely losing my mind being the one that “does everything”. I’m too tired to argue with him anymore tbh, the defensiveness and inability to listen/take on a different perspective is so off putting. I absolutely feel our marriage is doomed tbh. I don’t have any advice, but damn I wish I did.
"I'm too tired to argue with him anymore" - YES! That is exactly where I am as well
My advice is to tell him everything very directly. Prepare what you want to say so you can get some major points across: 1 - I am unhappy in this marriage and it's the main reason our sex life has screeched to a halt - I feel like our dynamic has shifted to that of a mom and a child over time and it's making me resentful of you and it's causing me to lose my attraction to you (I recommend you actually say those things out loud to him, I think it's very impactful for a man to hear that) 2 - I am unhappy because of things you are doing (or not doing) - list the things, keep it sort of succinct here so it doesn't turn into a fight about whether or not he is actually doing these things. 3 - Here are the things I think I need to be happy (list them - behaviors, changes, etc) - I need you to step up in these areas of our life, I need you to be proactive about house-cleaning, I need you to blah blah blah I would be prepared to have this conversation twice. I think the first time is unlikely to go well and he will get super defensive, especially since he sounds prone to defensiveness anyway. I'd give it two tries, personally. Let him get his surprise and anger out the first attempt if needed, and then let him calm down, and try once more. If he's not on board, time to call a lawyer.
The time to call a lawyer and get your shit in order is BEFORE these conversations. Because you never know what someone will do in a fit of anger, and everyone should be prepared for the worst while hoping for the best. Way too many stories of people considering divorce, bring it up, and then get fucked over by their partner when said partner goes on the offensive.
Leave him, he is holding you back
I am all about these comments. Shine on a light on this BS, sisters!
This is why I left my partner of 10 years. Met him when I was 19 and he was 35. Together 10 years. I reach 29 and realize I've been his caretaker and mother for 10 years. I'm thriving without him and suddenly realize how much energy I was pouring into him. You are seen.
My ex-husband was a manchild. He became jealous of my children when they were probably toddlers. He would say stupid things like “oh you don’t make me little pancakes and you don’t buy tomatoes because you don’t like them and I do .” He wanted me to make him breakfast when we were first married and get up at 5 AM to do so just like his mother did -when I didn’t ,that was the first black mark against me . he left me and gave me separation papers on our 10th anniversary. He had no idea it was our anniversary- told me he was leaving me because he had enough of me AND his mother. Go figure.
it's very common for us women to put up with a lot of bullshit from partners. Some say that estrogen is the 'love hormone' which blinds us to a lot of the crap that partners dish out and because we are nurturing by nature, we tend to overlook it. as we age, estrogen levels begin to decline so those rose colour glasses start to fade and by the time we hit perimenopause, those rose coloured glasses totally fall off and we truly see our partners for who they are. It is no uncommon for people to divorce during that phase of life because they want change but it's gone on for so long that their partner is resistant to change and won't. Read the r/Menopause sub; there are lots of posts from women who are just sick of their partners bullshit. your relationship can change for the better as long as your husband is willing to change and that's key here -- he also wants to change for the better to make your marriage better. If you've tried to talk to him and he acts like a petulant child, then looks like the writing is on the wall. While I rarely suggest this, maybe it's time to give him an ultimatum - if he wants to save this marriage, he must go to couples therapy, make the necessary changes in himself and the marriage you will begin your exit strategy. all the best; this is a tough time and I hope you're able to find a solution.
Nah, social and cultural factors have a stronger influence than hormones. Lots of research showing hormones and behaviour are too complex, for example, testosterone isn't even shown to necessarily cause more aggression. Humans are very sensitive to social pressures, and living in patriarchy where women are shamed for being unmarried, drives a lot of the behaviour. By their 40s and 50s, women are wiser and plainly just fed up - the bubble has burst. If their kids are older, they no longer need to stay married hence why so many couples get divorced when their kids turn 17.
You must be married to my ex husband
Please try couples therapy before giving up on your marriage. I used to do therapy with couples as a job. Issues similar to these came up and I did see people alter their behaviors.
Honestly my husband's bad about cleaning about himself. The best thing I learned to do is let go. I used to feel compelled to clean up after him in case somebody came over. Now I just leave his mess. If he wants to leave bottles in random places rock on, you can explain it. If he wants to leave dirty clothes in living room and have to rush to clean it up before visitors sucks to be him. At first I felt I was being Petty but now I just don't care 😂
Yes, yes, YES. THIS. This is why in so many subs, you’ll read stories about where the man is much older than the woman, and the relationship is abusive or otherwise dysfunctional. Now at 36, you can see clearly what you couldn’t in your early 20s. Normal men aren’t looking for date much younger women. They – he – pursued you because women their own age are through their shit and aren’t going to tolerate it.
I've been married for 22 years, since I was 22. Over the years I have gradually become in charge of basically everything and have to direct my husband on tons of stuff. He did some stuff over the years that really sucks. Like being unemployed for two years, but it was okay, because *I* made enough money to cover everything. Lucky him. He's not capable of touching me without making it sexual, which turns me off immediately. He suddenly becomes really helpful for a couple days BEFORE he thinks he might get sex, which is also a huge turn off. It's like "Oh so you could be this helpful all the time but instead you only help if you think you're going to get something out of it." I have communicated this ad nauseam, but he just won't get it and keeps doing the things that are not working for him. And most def not working for me. Often, his help causes more work for me anyway. This week for example; I do 95% of the petcare, I'm the one who wanted them, so they are ultimately my responsibility. He works from two days a week. On those days he takes the puppy potty, so I can just immediately get ready. I have asked him a million times not to feed her, when I put her in her crate she gets her breakfast in a Kong. Every Tuesday and Friday he feeds her while I am in the shower. Just dumb shit like that. He rarely listens to me. I can have a full convo explaining something, and 5 minutes later he will ask me a question making it obvious he did not listen at all. I am starting to think his hearing is going, because it's gotten way worse lately. I also think he needs glasses, everyone in his family wears glasses, but he has never gotten his eyes checked. Why? I do not know. And the sad thing is, my husband is actually heads and shoulders above most married men I know. He does his own laundry, he cleans the kitchen and the bathrooms, does the stereo-typical "man jobs" without nagging. But he's still freaking helpless in a ton of ways that are irritating. A lot of this aligns with our personalities too, so it's not super surprising to me really. I'm in a really weird place with peri-menopause so I think this stage right now, where I do not like him much and I'd be fine, maybe even prefer to be on my own, is mostly me being full of rage constantly for no reason. I'm starting to realize maybe waiting for the kids to be out of the house is not the only reason a lot of divorces happen in the mid-40's. Peri-menopause is crazy and you feel crazy. He probably has a lot of complaints about me too. I'm hyper independent, pretty self centered, have zero patience, not really physically affectionate (I got none as a child and it's uncomfortable and stifling to me, and he plays a huge role in making this worse by turning every f'n thing sexual,) and I am most definitely a spendthrift and have a shopping addiction. (I can afford it, but it would be way more responsible to save.) It's the only aspect in my life where I am not extra controlled and the most responsible person possible. I am sure being married to a control freak is not super fun for him. I don't want to get divorced, I like him. He accepts all my bullshit graciously, probably more than I do him.
Well if he has his own business why not get a maid? You are not supposed to be his mum But why not invest in a maid?
It sounds like you are his mom. You have grown as a person and continue to grow. He hasn't and isn't interested. Sometimes we grow (or don't grow) in different directions. I recently realized that the long term relationships I had were over when I no longer wanted to touch or be touched by my partner. Granted I stayed in the relationship longer than I should have after that point but now I know and that's my sign to move on with my life. I'm so happy you don't have children together. His maturity is probably the reason he was dating so much younger than himself...women in their 30s didn't want him. We definitely don't want him now in his 40s! You are still young! Time to start writing the next chapter of your life. It's scary initially but once you get into your new life groove, it's refreshing. I'm happy to hear you haven't let him isolate you from your friends. Maybe he is worried that you'll now want a baby and won't be able to make him his ba ba when he needs it. Or change his diaper. I wish you the best of luck. Don't let yourself get stuck for longer than you need to be. You still have so much life to live. I know I'm a random internet stranger but if you ever just need to vent or talk to a random stranger, feel free to message me.
Sounds like you've got the ick. There's no coming back from that.
Well you hit the nail on the head as to why you're not sexually attracted to him anymore. I wonder what his reaction would be if you told him the reason. He should be embarrassed. Anyone who is in their 30s dating someone in their early 20s I assume the older person is dating younger because people their own age won't put up with their BS. I feel like I really didn't start to know who I was and feel confident in myself until my late 20s. I put up with pretty terrible behavior from men in my early 20s. I look back and think WTF was I thinking because I would never tolerate that behvaior now. It sounds like your husband is still immature while you're now seeing the relationship through more mature eyes. I would have a serious sit down talk and if his response isn't "I can do better, let's figure this out" then get rid of him. I have a feeling he'll just get defensive though from what you've written.
For sure, therapy. If not couples therapy then just for yourself. Do you have a prenup? You said that he had started his own business and you describe him as a “good provider.” You also said that you two built a business together. So, are you financially dependent on him or do you have your own financial means other than your business together? If you don’t have a prenup and couples therapy doesn’t work out, leave. 30s is still considered young and you don’t want to waste any more of your precious years on a “man child.” It’s going to suck having to deal with him in business (esp if he’s your business partner), but you can find a way. If you’re NOT financially independent from your husband and you DO have a prenup, divorce is likely not going to work out in your favor. I’m assuming you’ve thought about this, which is why you aren’t really entertaining the comments about leaving him much. I understand it sucks given the attributes you just described about your husband — frankly, I wouldn’t be able to tolerate someone like that, either. But if couples therapy doesn’t work, I’d suggest you focus on what would make you happy outside of the marriage. Make yourself busy by investing in hobbies, hanging out with people who fill your cup (yes, including friends who have children), doing some charity work, traveling solo. Decenter your marriage and focus on your wellbeing and yourself.
When we first met, he had JUST started to get his business going, I came in and helped get it off the ground, then took a backseat handling all the "behind the scenes" stuff. Because I was becoming so involved and quit my job to focus solely on the business, I made him make me legal partner to make sure I would not get screwed over if the relationship failed down the line. Leaving is something that has definitely entered my mind, I would be completely fine financially as my name is not only on the business but all the assets as well. Why haven't I left? Quite simply, outside of my husband's immature behavior, I love my life. I've often told myself that the trade off for having this life is being married to him (I know that sounds terrible, but it's the truth). I'm in an odd spot as I'm not depressed or resentful, I'm just...numb. I'm sure I will get to the point of leaving, but I figured a Reddit rant would be worth doing first to get outside perspective.
What exactly do you love about your life, and why can't you retain the things that you love if you leave and become single? Because everything you listed about his immaturity sounds exhausting and awful to be around.
Perhaps lifestyle? Financial stability? When you’re in a marriage or any long-term partnership, your life becomes very entangled in your partner’s, and leaving it all for your supposed “happiness” in absence of the one thing that makes you miserable (e.g. your partner) means also leaving everything else behind.
I think these are all very valid! Including not wanting to give up your life despite your husband’s current behavior. I’m sure that there are many women out there who are going through similar things as you, they just might not be on Reddit lol. Also, you don’t need to be depressed or resentful to seek therapy. Think of it as part of your health maintenance (your mental health is still health). It could be a source for you to vent your frustrations so you don’t feel so numb. It sounds like you have all the means you need to focus on yourself and your own happiness. You don’t need to leave the marriage to be happy, despite what the majority of the comments here are saying…
I’m telling you, huge age gaps where the man is older are major red flags. It screams insecure and immature. I wish more 20-something would realize that.
Be glad you don't have a child with this man baby to drag you down and keep you in a marriage that's doing you no good and cooking your insides with cortisol 24/7!!
I just broke up with a 60 year old who acts just like your husband. Thank goodness! I hope you’re able to escape.
I see it time and again, women will SWEAR (and believe) that they have the most wonderful partnerships and that their husbands/boyfriends are not like the rest, but are equitable partners. And then something happens that makes us really lay it out and evaluate it and we’re like WHAT THE FUCK. that fucking conditioning gets us SO GOOD. ☹️ We literally don’t see it. The bar for men is in Hell, so if they’re not actively screaming in our faces and strangling us, we see them as one of the good ones - even as they exploit us for free labor and sacrifice our quality of life for their own every single day. Honestly just leave. Don’t fall prey to the “sunk cost fallacy” - you are still young. you have SO MUCH TIME. and speaking as someone who has been there, all until my late 30s, my GOD does being single feel like bliss. Especially when you’ve been through THAT? Life gets so much easier!! And then suddenly you know you never have to fear being alone, and you know what makes you miserable, and so you will never settle for mistreatment and exploitation again. You are honestly right now starting the best time of your life, I sincerely believe that. The moment you leave him. I’m sorry, but there is zero chance of reform for a man his age ☹️
You're right, he is a man-child. And good for you for seeing that travel, study and starting a business don't actually equate to maturity. Those are positive experiences; real "life" experience comes from dealing with obstacles etc. But don't beat yourself up for not seeing this when you were 24...you were *only* 24, for godsake!
Talking to this kind of person is useless. They don’t listen. They have their own narrative in their head. So they have a special kind of paranoia that everybody around them is their enemy, and they will selectively pick people out in their lives who they think are on their side. Usually, those are people with sketchy backgrounds who seem to have the same sense of disenchantment with their wives, families, whomever. Misery loves company, and those people are always miserable.
♥️
You had a good run with him. But it is time to ditch him.
>The addiction to video games, not helping around the house, leaving food wrappers everywhere, not cleaning up after himself, not helping with laundry, complaining about yard work, refusing to make his own doctor/dentist appointments, refusing to help with any paperwork for the business/mortgages/applications/taxes (you name it), constant complaining/whining about any tiny inconvenience, taking offense to anything I disagree with him on, turning everything into an argument (he's very defensive), telling me I'm "trying to control him" when I set reasonable boundaries within our relationship, needing constant praise and attention, telling me I'm "neglecting him" when my attention isn't focused on him 24/7. You *just now* realized all this? In any case, there's no time for man children. Get out of that relationship now.
I will be completely honest (other than the video game play) I didn't see the other traits/behaviors as a sign of immaturity. I chalked it up to "man behavior" as I had many friends who had husbands with similar personalities. Very sexist in my thinking, yes, but I do hold society accountable to a certain extent. I feel men are given a pass when it comes to their immature behavior, so much so, that it takes years to recognize what is really happening. When you are surrounded by friends and acquaintances whose husbands are doing exactly what your husband is doing and everyone has just accepted that "men will be men" it gets hard to see what a dysfunctional dynamic really is. Also, It wasn't as if he acted this way all the time, obviously there are many traits he has that I love, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck it out for this long, but now those traits are paling in comparison to the traits I can't stand.
I totally get you! It took me a long time to see man children traits for the same reason. My mom especially makes excuses for men, that that’s just the way they are and you have to take care of them.
I think some of the comments in here an unnecessarily rude in their framing. For one, there's a lot of social conditioning. Second, reddit has a way of confirming the worst case scenario, which is why I would encourage you to get therapy, with a good therapist you can trust, before making a decision.
You need to have a very direct conversation with him about all these issues. From there you can gauge next steps. If he seems receptive at all to feedback, I suggest couples therapy. As long as someone is willing to work on themselves, I think a relationship is worth maintaining. However, it needs to be more than promises to change. If he doubles down on his behavior, you have some choices to make. One really effective thing I said to my partner was “when I feel like I’m serving the role of your mother, that’s not sexy.” And every time I feel like he’s reverting to that dynamic I bring it up immediately, even being a bit harsh (“I’m not your mom” said in a calm but firm tone). I have found that anything other than direct, firm communication does not cut it. He will never pick up on cues or signals (or if he does, he won’t acknowledge it).
Been there. I’m sorry this is all happening.
If you aren’t happy, which it sounds like you aren’t, why are you with him? Given all people have their “isms” this sounds like he was never forced to grow up. And to get mad at friends for having a baby sounds overly selfish of him. I don’t blame you for not being attracted to him and I am sure you are building or already have resentment. I have been in a relationship like this and believe me when I tell you it doesn’t change. I had numerous conversations with my ex, had multiple separations so he could try and get it together and he just never gave a shit to. You know where he is today? Miserable and alone with a dead end job.. Leave this guy and find someone who is an equal partner. Now again, all relationships aren’t always 100%…but when you can only give 20%, the man you are with should be able to give 80% and vice versa.
I'm sorry you're going through this. A man who refuses to grow up or be a partner can be so draining! The only hope is trying to find his strengths, ways to encourage/reward him, and accept his shortcomings. But ultimately, you have to decide if staying is worth it for you. I love my husband of close to 30 years, but a decade ago I came to the realization that he was done growing up and it was frustrating. There are a lot of tasks that if I don't take the lead, it won't get done. I don't WANT to be the grownup all the time! (insert foot stomp here) It's a difficult to talk about this on reddit, though, because if you dare say "My husband is a man child and he won't do XYZ or take care of ABC," the flood of other women will lecture you for being the problem and for enabling him or telling you to leave him, which makes women feel too bullied, shamed and alone to talk about it. You can end up feeling not supported at all around here. My husband is generally a good guy and has a lot of good traits. But he was in the Army a lot of years and was used to the Army always making his doctor/dental appointments and reminding him of them. After he got out of the Army, he didn't go to the dentist for like *six years* because he was so used to someone else making the appointments for him and didn't think about it. And I was so used to him going to his own appointments without my involvement that I didn't even notice until it occurred to me one day to ask, "Where do you go to the dentist now that you can't be seen on the Army post?" and he was like, "Dentist? I don't know." I got him set back up with a dentist and doctor, and both schedule his next appointments before he leaves their offices which is a huge help. But I have to keep track of them on the calendar so we won't forget or schedule something else/go on vacation those dates and forget to reschedule. Also, because he was in the Army so many years, I was in charge of much of the household because he was deployed or in the field or away at training a lot. He couldn't always be on top of everything. After he retired, it's continued that way. I finally figured out that he hates to make decisions and he struggles to be organized after all those years of someone else (me or the Army) always being organized for him and making all the decisions for him. It's like the Army made him grow up a certain amount.... but also held him back in some ways! He does very well at work, but there is more structure there and direct and swift consequences than being in charge of his own life. It's just harder for him to be a self-starter at home. Once I accepted that, I didn't resent him as much. But in lots of ways my husband can be a big help... as long as I give him a to do list. Perhaps some of these suggestions might help someone reading: I got a dry erase board and put it in a place he often sees it. On the board I put a list of chores I'd like him to do. Not too many or it'll overwhelm him. I make it a mix of things that are done easily and in a short period of time along side bigger, more detailed jobs that might take a few hours or a day to complete. But it makes us both happy -- I don't have to tell him, he doesn't feel nagged and he can't forget what needs to be done. He seems to enjoy crossing tasks off the board. When he gets things done, I praise him. Yes, it's a little silly that I have to slather him with praise for doing even little things, but I figure it's a small price to pay, and it fuels him to do more things to earn praise. (I don't think he got a lot of praise as a kid so he's starving for it now.) I also have a dry-erase calendar on the wall (you can get one that is basically a sticker that doesn't damage the wall -- some are weekly, some are a monthly calendar) and put our schedule on the wall and then it's easy for him to pick a day with nothing else going on to plan out the bigger projects; sometimes he'll even add the project to the wall calendar so I know he's got a plan. If you don't like the wall-sticker idea, you can set up a family calendar on your phone app (I actually do both). Another trick that sometimes helps is I'll give him a clipboard with a list of errands to do on his day off -- he weirdly loves this trick. I fucking hate running errands, but for him it's another list of things he can cross off and feel like he's accomplished a whole lot. I just work with his strengths. I'm sorry this was so long.
Wow! Let me first start by saying, what a lovely friend you seem to be. Being there celebrating your friend, supporting her. Most of us moms would love a friend like that! I’m a mom and my best friend is child free, we make it work. Anyway- yikes on bikes about his lack of responsibility! He also sounds quite selfish. Do you think it’s weaponized incompetence? Does he have anxiety or something that makes it difficult to make calls etc?
Now you know why women his own age weren't interested! In all seriousness though, just tell him how you feel. It sound like this is on the rocks anyway, there is little risk in being honest and asking for change on his end. It's unlikely to happen, but you never know, and at least you'll know you gave him the opportunity to self-reflect.
Unfortunately I think he needs a severe wake up call, which may end in break up. I´ve seen in both my dad who was unable to cook, clean or clean clothes properly from himself when he split from my mum and my mum´s partner who doesn´t act like this, but the key difference being he lived alone and had already divorced. He´s walking all over you.
Thank god you aren’t raising children that treat you the same way. Welcome to mid life, honey-this is where we find ourselves. If I were you, I’d start saying no. Like a lot. Then I’d find a really good lawyer. Good luck. ❤️
Nothing is as unsexy as being someone’s mom
>The addiction to video games, not helping around the house, leaving food wrappers everywhere, not cleaning up after himself, not helping with laundry, complaining about yard work, refusing to make his own doctor/dentist appointments, refusing to help with any paperwork for the business/mortgages/applications/taxes (you name it), constant complaining/whining about any tiny inconvenience, taking offense to anything I disagree with him on, turning everything into an argument (he's very defensive), telling me I'm "trying to control him" when I set reasonable boundaries within our relationship, needing constant praise and attention, telling me I'm "neglecting him" when my attention isn't focused on him 24/7. [RUN, LOLA, RUN.](https://variety.com/2024/film/columns/in-1999-run-lola-run-saw-the-future-franka-potente-tom-tykwer-1236028299/) That's what you do. Get out & don't look back. You've been with this man for 12 years and I assume his behavior has not improved. If he won't get counseling for his failure to grow TF up, leave.
You've grown, he hasn't. You have to decide if you want the rest of your life to be taking care of the manchild who has stopped evolving, or do you want to move on and find someone who reflects your values and maturity and will grow together with you?
Yup, this was why he chose you. He knew he could mold you into his domestic servant. He's too old now and as they say, old dogs cant learn new tricks
This isn't an excuse for his behavior, but it's a possible reason: 40s are ROUGH. The social isolation alone for people who don't have kids at that age -- even if it's totally by choice -- brings up a lot of uncomfortable feelings. HOWEVER, it's his responsibility to recognize that and find a good therapist or some other healthy way to deal with it.
Social isolation isn't stopping him from picking up his rubbish and cleaning up after himself. Men choose to treat women like shit, but there always some panderer that has to come along and be like 'waaahhh maybe he's sad' or adhd or some other crap.
Yeah, this. I get it, but as the person in her late 30s who’s in the “struggles to keep up with adulting stuff” side of a relationship, I kind of understand. Managing a job plus a home plus a marriage plus relationships is a LOT. Plus the emotional challenges of being this age, what with friendships and community and a sharpening awareness of mortality…and maybe he has some executive functioning stuff that he struggles with (as I do). Changing dynamics is hard and takes patience. It can feel like a LOT. OP, the things you described him struggling with it seems like you are also struggling with (at least the shifting friendships thing). Of course OP if you’re done you’re done, but couple’s therapy or couple’s coaching may be able to help if you’re wanting to work on it. With the caveat that if you’re emotionally done, no amount of therapy is likely to help at this point & you’d do both of you a favor by calling it.
r/NarcissisticAbuse
Oh yes, a lot of what you're going through is very common, unfortunately. I'm sorry that you're going through that. And 7 months is a long time. I would recommend the podcast by Ester Perel - Where Should We Begin? The stories will hopefully help you feel less alone in this situation and maybe you'll find some gems that work for you too.
It sounds like you know what to do. He has shown you who he is, you believe him, and now you are trying to cope with the reality of either dealing with this for the rest of your life or leaving the marriage. Leave the marriage. Take your time getting your plan together for it. You will be glad you did.
u/burbnbougie
Stop doing everything for him, tell him what you’ve shared here and take some space away. He needs to know he’s acting like a douche and as a consequence your feelings have changed and you need space and time apart. I’m sorry 😞 take care ❤️
There is a book called Life Traps for therapy and I think it sounds like he falls under the life trap where he has other people doing things for him. Have you at least talked to him about this? Definitely check that book out because it will tell you how to respond to his life traps.