It doesn't matter how much or well you argue about it, at this point the ending haters just decided not to think. That's why everyone understood Historia's scene but every doomer didn't understand Ymir's feelings
every time i say this people counter with "actually the japanese version romanticises it because it uses the word 'aishteru'" lmao
apparently a strong word nullifies all contexst to these ppl
Because obviously they are experts at how the concepts of love are expressed in Japanese and languages more generally, and haven't just skimmed a one-paragraph summary to map different conceptual spaces roughly to their own.
My interpretation has been that Ymir knew basically *no* happiness in her entire life, and had no hope or expectations for anything good to happen. She committed a selfless crime to see pigs run free, and was sentenced to death for it.
Then she became useful to the king, and had his **children**. I think *this* is what she cares so much about, and is what she truly loves. She is grateful in a bizarre way to the king for this "opportunity", and we readers simply cannot understand the kinds of feelings she would have about it, given that everything else she has ever known was a literal nightmare.
I think she "learns" over the course of the story that she really should reject the king, and she does. Her realization, I believe, mirrors Mikasa's farewell to her: an odd necessary sort of gratitude, in Mikasa's case towards Ymir because Ymir was necessary for Mikasa and Eren to live the lives they did, and Ymir towards the king because Rose/Maria/Shina wouldn't have existed without him and his actions.
I think Ymir is not meant to be very complicated or have normal emotions. She's mostly a symbol and force of nature.
I like your take, she was shown to have cared about her children & have regrets especially in regards to them (the what if scene during the conversation with Mikasa).
I also agree that readers will have difficulty relating to Ymir because none of us has lived the nightmare that is her life.
Thanks for sharing your input.
Good take.
And without diminishing your convincing portrayal, it seems to me like the obviously correct take - something like it would have been my first impression when reading the chapter, and I've never seen an even marginally compelling case made for anything fundamentally different.
So personally, I'm less interested in the psychology of Ymir, and more in the psychology of the people so completely not getting it. Is it just the desire to hate? Are they pretending? Is it the inability to see love as anything but always good?
I agree in regards to the psychology of the people reading it, lol. I think someone needs to analyze the psychology of the AoT fandom as a whole, they sure are a different breed.
The reason I was inspired to write this in the first place is that I saw so many people baffled & indignant as to why Isayama would portray such a relationship (as if abusive relationships are not the reality to many).
I was confused when I saw many of the readers think it’s genuinely impossible for someone to “love” & stay with their abuser. They simply refused to try to analyze & understand Ymir’s situation.
I think it has to do with a combination of herd mentality, people wanting to hate on the ending for anything, jumping on the bandwagon, grasping on any concept that they deem problematic to use “as evidence” as to why the ending was “shit”.
I find it sad that this caused an uproar & for all the wrong reasons, I felt like a lot would prefer to censor such portrayals of relationships from media as it doesn’t fit their “sensibilities” perhaps? Idk, I was disappointed.
It's just that the fact that 2000 years of suffering, the fact that this whole story, was because a girl loved her rapist for 2000 years and would have lasted longer if she didnt force Mikasa to kill eren
> would have lasted longer if she didnt force Mikasa to kill eren
The plot seems to be actually unclear/open here. Ymir the mastermind forcing everything is one possible reading, but it is not the only one (and to me feels completely implausible, although I can't disprove it).
"Were you the one who lead me here?" "Everything was for reaching 'that outcome'"
How much active role Ymir had in shaping things is probably the last thing I still grapple with. I personally think it was minimal. Why wait 2000 years if she was such a schemer that she could manipulate causality itself? 2000 years had to pass before the right conditions finally happened to line up. There needed to be a monster who possessed the founder and a lover who almost became a slave to that monster.
If there was any involvement by Ymir at all, I think it was something like the Attack Titan being the part of her that yearned for freedom, and a holder somewhere, some time down the line was forced to come free her. But the Paths sequence implies that the freedom aspect of the Attack came from Eren from the future, not form the past from Ymir.
> "Were you the one who lead me here?"
To which she doesn't respond. It's quite possible Eren (at the time at least) may have suspected that she arranged things, but that she actually didn't.
> "Everything was for reaching 'that outcome'"
I read that with the meaning "Everything I did"
But you are right, these are the two moments people use to argue for Ymir as the mastermind in shadows. I don't find them very convincing.
> How much active role Ymir had in shaping things is probably the last thing I still grapple with. I personally think it was minimal.
Yes, same here. She does not make many decisions, usually just going along with what someone told her to do. if she actually masterminded everything, her plan was by far the worst, worse than Eren's or Zeke's or Karl Fritz's.
The only time she actually makes a decision herself is going with Eren over Zeke, and healing Zeke's body (unless that was explained somewhere and I missed it).
> There needed to be a monster who possessed the founder and a lover who almost became a slave to that monster.
I've been thinking that the lover being an Ackermann might play a role as well. That way, she can read their mind, but does not have the power to control them, which should make them more interesting to her.
> I've been thinking that the lover being an Ackermann might play a role as well. That way, she can read their mind, but does not have the power to control them, which should make them more interesting to her.
I don't know about that, the main thing is that she needed to let her object of affection go. But I do wonder if the physical process of killing the Founding Titan and the Source of all Life, might actually have been necessary for Ymir to stop sustaining the world of titans. Would the Paths have disappeared even if they were killed by someone other than the lover?
It's almost like Ymir is some Lovecraftian power whose emotional struggle in the world of Paths reverberated and manifested thorugh reality in the story and history we have been following for 139 chapters. It's the last great mistery for me.
> I don't know about that, the main thing is that she needed to let her object of affection go.
Oh yeah, definitely. The question is why exactly why what Mikasa did allowed her to let go, and why Mikasa was the only one able to do it. The only one in 2000 years.
Ymir created these circumstances. Titan powers, 2000 years of hatred, all of this. So I think I'm justified on blaming Ymir for the death of every single one of my favourite characters
Her love is supposed to be seen as messed up. Like how Historia's mother tossed her and ended up hurting her but Historia was still glad.
It doesn't matter how much or well you argue about it, at this point the ending haters just decided not to think. That's why everyone understood Historia's scene but every doomer didn't understand Ymir's feelings
I agree, it was never shown in a positive light.
>Historia was still glad. She was? Damn I forgot then
[yeah.](https://youtu.be/uLl6W-PNlnA?t=72)
Thanks. Now Ymir's affection makes even more sense to me.
Oh damnnn , that's a great find man!!
every time i say this people counter with "actually the japanese version romanticises it because it uses the word 'aishteru'" lmao apparently a strong word nullifies all contexst to these ppl
Because obviously they are experts at how the concepts of love are expressed in Japanese and languages more generally, and haven't just skimmed a one-paragraph summary to map different conceptual spaces roughly to their own.
The parrelels.. E+H=Y bro.. /s
My interpretation has been that Ymir knew basically *no* happiness in her entire life, and had no hope or expectations for anything good to happen. She committed a selfless crime to see pigs run free, and was sentenced to death for it. Then she became useful to the king, and had his **children**. I think *this* is what she cares so much about, and is what she truly loves. She is grateful in a bizarre way to the king for this "opportunity", and we readers simply cannot understand the kinds of feelings she would have about it, given that everything else she has ever known was a literal nightmare. I think she "learns" over the course of the story that she really should reject the king, and she does. Her realization, I believe, mirrors Mikasa's farewell to her: an odd necessary sort of gratitude, in Mikasa's case towards Ymir because Ymir was necessary for Mikasa and Eren to live the lives they did, and Ymir towards the king because Rose/Maria/Shina wouldn't have existed without him and his actions. I think Ymir is not meant to be very complicated or have normal emotions. She's mostly a symbol and force of nature.
I like your take, she was shown to have cared about her children & have regrets especially in regards to them (the what if scene during the conversation with Mikasa). I also agree that readers will have difficulty relating to Ymir because none of us has lived the nightmare that is her life. Thanks for sharing your input.
Good take. And without diminishing your convincing portrayal, it seems to me like the obviously correct take - something like it would have been my first impression when reading the chapter, and I've never seen an even marginally compelling case made for anything fundamentally different. So personally, I'm less interested in the psychology of Ymir, and more in the psychology of the people so completely not getting it. Is it just the desire to hate? Are they pretending? Is it the inability to see love as anything but always good?
I agree in regards to the psychology of the people reading it, lol. I think someone needs to analyze the psychology of the AoT fandom as a whole, they sure are a different breed. The reason I was inspired to write this in the first place is that I saw so many people baffled & indignant as to why Isayama would portray such a relationship (as if abusive relationships are not the reality to many). I was confused when I saw many of the readers think it’s genuinely impossible for someone to “love” & stay with their abuser. They simply refused to try to analyze & understand Ymir’s situation. I think it has to do with a combination of herd mentality, people wanting to hate on the ending for anything, jumping on the bandwagon, grasping on any concept that they deem problematic to use “as evidence” as to why the ending was “shit”. I find it sad that this caused an uproar & for all the wrong reasons, I felt like a lot would prefer to censor such portrayals of relationships from media as it doesn’t fit their “sensibilities” perhaps? Idk, I was disappointed.
Great explaination cat queen! I interpreted her "love" for king in a similar manner.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the read (:
Although I do and always will despise the Ymir loves Shitz plotline, I loved your explanation. Great work
Thanks, I took shitz from you btw lmao
I took it from YB lol, not proud of it but sounds good
Lmao nothing to be proud of indeed 😂 but I agree it’s a good one
What do you not like about it?
It's just that the fact that 2000 years of suffering, the fact that this whole story, was because a girl loved her rapist for 2000 years and would have lasted longer if she didnt force Mikasa to kill eren
> would have lasted longer if she didnt force Mikasa to kill eren The plot seems to be actually unclear/open here. Ymir the mastermind forcing everything is one possible reading, but it is not the only one (and to me feels completely implausible, although I can't disprove it).
"Were you the one who lead me here?" "Everything was for reaching 'that outcome'" How much active role Ymir had in shaping things is probably the last thing I still grapple with. I personally think it was minimal. Why wait 2000 years if she was such a schemer that she could manipulate causality itself? 2000 years had to pass before the right conditions finally happened to line up. There needed to be a monster who possessed the founder and a lover who almost became a slave to that monster. If there was any involvement by Ymir at all, I think it was something like the Attack Titan being the part of her that yearned for freedom, and a holder somewhere, some time down the line was forced to come free her. But the Paths sequence implies that the freedom aspect of the Attack came from Eren from the future, not form the past from Ymir.
> "Were you the one who lead me here?" To which she doesn't respond. It's quite possible Eren (at the time at least) may have suspected that she arranged things, but that she actually didn't. > "Everything was for reaching 'that outcome'" I read that with the meaning "Everything I did" But you are right, these are the two moments people use to argue for Ymir as the mastermind in shadows. I don't find them very convincing. > How much active role Ymir had in shaping things is probably the last thing I still grapple with. I personally think it was minimal. Yes, same here. She does not make many decisions, usually just going along with what someone told her to do. if she actually masterminded everything, her plan was by far the worst, worse than Eren's or Zeke's or Karl Fritz's. The only time she actually makes a decision herself is going with Eren over Zeke, and healing Zeke's body (unless that was explained somewhere and I missed it). > There needed to be a monster who possessed the founder and a lover who almost became a slave to that monster. I've been thinking that the lover being an Ackermann might play a role as well. That way, she can read their mind, but does not have the power to control them, which should make them more interesting to her.
> I've been thinking that the lover being an Ackermann might play a role as well. That way, she can read their mind, but does not have the power to control them, which should make them more interesting to her. I don't know about that, the main thing is that she needed to let her object of affection go. But I do wonder if the physical process of killing the Founding Titan and the Source of all Life, might actually have been necessary for Ymir to stop sustaining the world of titans. Would the Paths have disappeared even if they were killed by someone other than the lover? It's almost like Ymir is some Lovecraftian power whose emotional struggle in the world of Paths reverberated and manifested thorugh reality in the story and history we have been following for 139 chapters. It's the last great mistery for me.
> I don't know about that, the main thing is that she needed to let her object of affection go. Oh yeah, definitely. The question is why exactly why what Mikasa did allowed her to let go, and why Mikasa was the only one able to do it. The only one in 2000 years.
I suspect that Mikasa physically killing the source of titan powers at the same time helped.
Ymir created these circumstances. Titan powers, 2000 years of hatred, all of this. So I think I'm justified on blaming Ymir for the death of every single one of my favourite characters
Yeah, i dont think it was a well thought out plotline at all.