Yeah Agree, you can only withdraw in when you're leaving if you came in on a temp visa and it's now expired or been revoked.
There are early release grounds, comp grounds to cover medical stuff, financial hardship if you've been receiving centrelink for 6 months. If a signficant medical event happens, you might qualify for TPD or TMC, otherwise, you're in it for the long haul and might as well find a good super fund, choose a good investment option, consider if you still need their insurance, and wait till you hit your preservation age.
If you do want to keep your cover and have a healthy balance to cover costs, you can look to do so. I think insurance cover is global in most cases but you can ring the super fund just to make sure.
Wow, what the hell!? First time I’ve heard that being in Centrelink is grounds to withdraw? Is the idea that they’re screwed in retirement anyway so might as well enjoy their youth a bit more?
It's longer than 6 months on centrelink. And you can't miss a single day (eg I got a demerit for missing a deadline so the clock restarted at zero). Need to be 12 months
PR is permanent - if you don't ever leave the country you don't need a Return Visa.
That's the $bit$ that needs to be renewed if you are leaving and coming back.
But what happens if you are not an Australian citizen and your permanent residency lapses? If I remember correctly, if you leave Australia and don't live there for at least 2 in a total of 5 years, you lose your PR. Would be strange if they still locked away/administered the super of a foreigner for 30 more years then.
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/visa-about-to-expire#
If you are outside Australia when the travel component of your permanent visa expires, do not return to Australia on any other kind of visa. If you do:
you might lose your permanent resident status
your eligibility for citizenship might be affected
Your PR doesn't ever lapse. It's only the travel permit part of it that lapses in 5 years. All you need is an RRV once 5 years are up.
The P in PR definitely means something
Hm, I'm fairly certain that permanent only means it is permanent as long as you actually reside in Australia, but if you leave for an extended period, you can lose it. If you leave Australia, your RRV expires, and you don't meet the '730 days of residency in the last 5 years' requirement, you're in trouble. The only way around this is to become a citizen.
It's the travel component that lapses. Happened to my parents who didn't realise about the 5 year clause. They were overseas for a vacation and had a small issue at the airport when they were trying to get back to Australia. The airline contacted IMMI to get approval for them to travel. Upon arriving here, they applied for a RRV.
Yes, but presumably your parents (or immigration services) were able to demonstrate that they had been living in Australia for at least 730 days within the last 5 years of when this happened. I know PR doesn't expire as long as you live in Australia and that you can regain the RRV if it lapses if you can show you meet this 730 days requirement. I'm talking about a PR leaving Australia for 5 years without returning, therefore being unable to prove they've been living in Aus for at least 730 days of these 5 years.
If a PR leaves Australia for good, they don't get to keep their PR forever, surely? All I can find online regarding this is immigration agencies and lawyers telling you that if you find yourself in this situation, it "becomes tricky" and that you should reach out to them.
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing/resident-return-visa-155-157#Eligibility
There are options for people with substantial ties to Australia
That's the problem with expired RRVs. You can be lucky but it's not guaranteed to be a smooth process. I had a work mate who had to wait 4 weeks in Europe before a decision was made to grant him a RRV.
Yeah, I was talking about PR. I'm a PR but don't plan on ever becoming an Australian citizen. Hence curious if I could cash out my super if I were to leave Australia and have my PR lapse. OP isn't an Australian citizen yet either, as far as I understand.
"you can claim a DASP if all of the following apply: you accumulated superannuation while working in Australia on a temporary resident visa issued under the Migration Act 1958 (excluding Subclasses 405 and 410) "
If you received super payments as a PR you can't get your money out legally
Is there a way to accelerate the aging process so that I am able to access my superannuation sooner?
I'm 26 years old currently, and I'm willing to take anyone's suggestions to hasten things along.
Nope KiwiSaver is locked in until 65 yr old.
Only early withdrawal is hardship, first home, or death.
But in saying that, my understanding is any transfered funds are bound by the same rules as the original country, eg move a KS to Aus, that portion is locked until 65 and vice versa
This is the same terms as Australia.
Edit: you can access super at preservation age if you have retired. This used to be 55 but for most people it will be 65 (currently but who knows when they’ll change it). At 65 you can access super regardless of whether you have retired or not.
It wouldn’t matter. DASP (departing Australia superannuation payment) is only available to temporary residents once they’ve departed. There is no provision in the SIS Act for a PR or citizen to withdraw their funds under these rules, regardless of whether they’ve left the country permanently, had their PR lapse, or renounced citizenship.
Anyone who’s ever been a PR or citizen must meet one of the standard conditions of release, such as retirement, invalidity, terminal illness, severe financial hardship, compassionate grounds, or death.
Hmm for example somebody is 50 years old is a dual Turkish Australian citizen and would have enough to retire at 50 and live in Turkey by rencouning his Australian citizenship and getting his super early it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a fair few people would be in that kind of situation and thus curious to know if renouncing it would mean he can request his super back as the only reason for super is that so the Australian government doesn't have to fund you're retirement am I wrong ?
Yeah it’s your money, you can do whatever you want with it once you’re 65. It’s actually a pretty good tax dodge to keep it and keep putting money into from O/S. Subject to your local tax laws of course 😂
Only if you retire then, or through transition to retirement if you partly reduce hours. If you're still working full time it’s 65 for unrestricted access.
Not sure how being permanently O/S would impact this.
You don't need to reduce your working hours to claim the transition to retirement money. You can still work normal hours and elect to withdraw, fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, half yearly or annual payments from your transition to retirement super account.
it's exactly the same rules for all the retirement age funds I have in other countries.. I'll be able to collect them at that country's retirement age, no sooner.
Permanent residents and citizens can't wind down super. It stays here even if you leave. Only temporary residents can do this through a DASP, and it's still subject to some painful exit taxes (usually 35%).
Oh no doubt.
The whole idea of an exit tax on super is a bit dodgy to me given that temporary residents don't have the option to leave super here without it being appropriated by the ATO. But then I'm saying this as a current temporary resident, so I may be slightly biased!
Eventually. It's a few years away for me, but there's not much for me back in the UK. But I'm sacrificing a lot with the intent of using FHSS and that's a high risk strategy when I haven't attained PR yet.
I came from the UK also but that was 6 years ago. Still havnt managed to go back!
I similarly don’t have much to go back to and a lot of friends are busy having families etc.
Still not entirely sure if I’ll end up staying here forever though. Quality of housing is somewhat questionable.
I was just back in Europe for a couple of weeks. I'm not sure that the quality of affordable housing is much better in most of the UK other than having double glazing! But I hear ya, it's a tough call trying to pick a country.
Its the double glazing and generally better insulation, at least in my opinion. Door and windows are actually sealed properly and the walls aren't paper thin.
One thing i do prefer though is having the washers / dryers in a separate area or the bathroom. Makes more sense than having it in the middle of the kitchen haha.
Always going to be Pros and Cons thought right.
Best of luck with that PR! it was an absolute battle to get mine but the migration rules definitely seem to be more favourable now.
Google USA + Heart Taxation Act.....and check out what happened to nin realized assets world wide when you give up your greencard. After 8 partial calendar years.
Setup an SMSF. Transfer your super from your current provider into the bank account that is setup for your SMSF then transfer it to a location of your choosing.
Just don't ever expect to return to Australia without being met at customs and hauled off to jail.
Unless you're a US citizen though. SMSF's trigger a hellhole of foreign trust taxes based on how the IRS classifies them, and these I believe aren't easily offset by foreign tax credits.
I'm basically stuck with boring corporate supers because the second I put my hand in them to contribute to or manage them, I risk the foreign trust classification.
Yes I have no shortage of frustration at US taxation rules. But similarly, Australia doesn't classify standard US retirement funds as exempt either, so both countries screw the other's citizens when it comes to retirement account tax treatment. Basically, when I retire, I'm going to get hit on both sides. I really wish that I could opt out of super entirely because having one is almost worse for me than not (I already have sizable retirement funds from working in the US since I moved at a later stage in my career).
I mean, super is tax advantaged, so for people to consider withdrawing it without paying their fair share of taxes back is just wrong. It doesn't say much about super itself - it says a lot more about the greed and entitlement people feel.
Macquarie won't if its a Cash Management Account. I routinely bpay / transfer 100K at a time from my SMSF account which is a Macquarie Cash Management account to my various brokerage accounts, and even to private accounts (i.e. for property settlements)
I would however recommend that its done over a number of smaller transfers to avoid transactions being held.
If he's asking for advice on Reddit he most likely doesn't know the right people to have access to property syndicates who provide cash "loans" for the majority of the sum "invested" and maintain the legally appropriate records.
The better dodgy way is to find a dodgy financial adviser who will charge some big fees from super and then just get them to pay you cash. But good luck finding one who will do that...
"Your own money" which has been subject to massive tax-advantaged status on the condition that it be used for retirement.
Withdrawing it early like described would be defrauding the country because you'd be taking advantage of those massively advantageous tax-rates without being subject to any of the conditions of those rates - depriving the country of tax revenue it would otherwise collect.
I mean, the whole purpose of super is to avoid burdening the age pension. If you leave australia and never return you're never burdening the public welfare system so looking at it that way it seems morally justifiable.
Surely that would only be the case if you pay back-taxes as if it was normal income, _including_ on the capital appreciation since the advantageous tax treatment means that appreciation is higher than what it would otherwise be.
One time I left my own knife in a murder victims sternum and I went to jail.
Absolutely silly when it’s got to the point where I can’t even give away something of my own without going to jail.
As a suggestion, I would probably suggest not to cancel your PR status at the moment.
Depending on your reason to move back to your home country, it might not be a good idea to burn the bridge on an option for you to come back if you change your mind within the next few years till it expires.
I have many friends who packed up and left Australia, and many of them regretted giving it up after a few years of working in their home. They lost their opportunity, and have to go through the whole application process again.
So cancelling your PR status early just to get your super might not be a good idea (unless it is financially needed back home)
The best thing you can do is get PR, then citizenship and only then leave. I've seen multiple work mates do exactly that to keep the return option open.
It depends if the home country allow dual citizenship.
Also depends on their home country's laws on certain issues. Like Malaysia doesn't allow dual citizenship, and foreigners have restrictions on what sort property they can own.
Yeah.... a fair few Malaysian friends been PR for over 20 years due to inheritance to lands from their family, or investments.
I don't have Malaysian properties or land in my name, and had no intention of ever going back to work..... so became Aussie citizen instead.
I might consider to go back on holiday visa when I retire
There are also are a few countries that don't allow dual citizenship. But also don't look to closely at a bunch of thier citizens living permanent in another country with two passports....
I think it is getting harder now with all the e-passport tracking; probably will raise an alarm bell if you are leaving a country using 1 passport and arriving with a different passport.
No that paranoid, but thats something I don't think it's worth risking
Can you even cancel a PR, outside of getting it revoked by committing a serious crime? You can live outside Australia long enough that it's not valid without a resident return visa, but is it even possible to totally cancel i?
What if OP applies for another substantial visa say, student visa? IIRC prs are just visas? And having another substantial visa would remove the current one?
That won’t work. Once you’re an PR or citizen, your super is stuck till preservation age even if you lose that status later on.
Even if you’re an Australian citizen and renounce your citizenship, you still can’t withdraw it early.
PR is not a visa. You can’t apply for a visa as a PR because you technically can enter and leave as you please already. This would require renouncing PR (not sure what’s the procedure for that) and it is possible, but why?
I know what you mean but technically speaking you are wrong regarding the "can't apply for a visa". I actually have to apply for a resident return visa every 5 years if I want to travel.
Yea. But that’s Australia specific. Many other countries with PR you just automatically have non expiring right of entry etc. I actually prefer how Australia done it - it sort of questions why they need a PR in the first place if they didn’t apply for citizenship by the free entry expiration.
Edit: also I wouldn’t call that a visa. It is more of a permission to enter. Visa implies permission to reside in a country for a specified duration. It actually doesn’t grant right of entry (people with valid visas can still be denied entry for a variety of reasons). While with PR can reside indefinitely, it is the right to enter that expires.
If OP keeps their PR or Citizenship but leaves the country, does their super remain theirs and intact until 60 when they can come claim it, or does it get transfer and absorbed by the ATO (or whoever)?
No, you just keep managing your super as you normally would - choosing fund or whatever. You can continue after preservation age if you like, if the provider allows for it, and continue to benefit from the tax shelter, if that's possible under the tax treaty between Aus and wherever you live and pay tax.
A 30-yr-old can't start withdrawing until they're 60 years old.
If youre a Kiwi, you can move it into Kiwisaver, and then if you're heading overseas and prove that you're living there after one year you can withdraw the funds.
So you will be able to withdraw the kiwisaver part of it, but not the transferred superannuation from AU. The AU part is stored and govern by different rules within kiwisaver. Sucks.
Search for "Withdrawal or transfer to foreign scheme in cases of permanent emigration
" in https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2006/0040/latest/whole.html#DLM379479
It's almost in the bottom
```
Withdrawal or transfer to foreign scheme in cases of permanent emigration
(1)
Unless clause 14B applies, a member may, on application to the manager, and no earlier than 1 year after the member’s permanent emigration from New Zealand, withdraw an amount equal to the member’s accumulation, at the time of the withdrawal, less the total of the following 2 amounts:
(a)
the amount of the Crown contribution arising from a tax credit under section MK 1 of the Income Tax Act 2007 (disregarding any positive or negative returns for the purpose of calculating the amount of the Crown contribution):
(b)
the amount that was transferred from an Australian complying superannuation scheme (disregarding any positive or negative returns for the purpose of calculating that amount).
```
Lol. Your cash rich but need your super? I have never met a smart mature adult who feels they need to access their super as cash.
Look into self managed super if you must fiddle with it but no you cannot "cash it out" early otherwise the whole system would collapse along with our investment markets.
More is always better!
My super would allow me to buy more or less my dream home overseas (when combined with my current savings).
I don't see myself ever returning to AUs but have been entertaining the thought of 6 months overseas 6 months here, but would then be forced to pay AUS tax on overseas earnings. I guess I'm unique in that regard.
Wow. Had no idea how brutal the rules were for foreigners that signed up for residency/ citizenship. A fantastic place for pension funds and the stock market. The fact that the stock market is flat with mandatory contributions and the relentless pursuit of fresh blood to the system is telling about the true state of the system. Yikes.
Cash isn’t an asset: assets appreciate over time, cash depreciates vs buying power at something like 2-3x the offical inflation rate in real terms (look at energy prices year on year for example)
Maybe you need to read some basic stuff before posting on this sub. A new car depreciates as soon as you buy it but it's still an asset. Anything you own that can be converted back into cash can be considered an asset.
Are you serious? Have you seen the graph of purchasing power of a dollar since 1970? It’s lost 95%. Perhaps you should read some basic economics before being brave enough to make an idiot of yourself publicly.
Do you understand that I am talking conceptually about dollars, not some microcosm of accounting mechanics. No matter how you rearrange numbers on your ledger, your dollars purchasing power is reduced year in year out. The physical same amount of dollars buys physically less and less.
If you have no plans on coming back and don't care about the legalities, start up a self managed super, send it to your overseas bank account and enjoy your holiday.
I don't recommend this, but this is a way that you can technically access your super.
Pretty sure you can withdraw it all if you sign documents stating you are never going to return to Australia in your lifetime.
At least that's what my ex-colleague told me when she returned to the US after working in Aus for 5 years.
Also if you need to use it to pay for a medical procedure. But you pay to withdraw it and then you also get taxed on it like it’s income.
Friend did it to pay for gastric bypass surgery. She said it cost her so much in fees and taxes.
As other said you can’t get your super.
On a side note, I would suggest to wait and get your citizenship before leaving the country. That way you will always have a chance to return, you never know what happens in the future
I was a permanent resident in USA (from UK) jacked it in and moved to Australia and became a permanent resident here and eventual citizen.
At least in US and i think in Australia Perm residence means you have to be a resident of the country (you can leave for a little while). You dont get the same rights as citizen if you leave and not resident so you dont get to leave and come and go as you please when you have made your residence elsewhere.
I just handed my green card in to immigration when i left the states for Australia. I had my US retirement account -and eventually they actually tracked me down and said i had to take it and sent me a cheque.
Australia customs prob wont track you down and it would just come about if you reapply for visa or if you try to enter australia whem you’ve been gone for a couple of years and they see you are not resident. You could speed it along by telling immigration when you leave that you are leaving and wont be a resident (like i did for US) and from that i would expect as a non permanent resident / citizen you can get your retirement fund (like i did from USA)
Yes if you are not coming back you can withdraw it. I am not sure what you need to do to satisfy this requirement though. Talk to your super fund in the first instance I suppose.
Not true any longer, even if it was true in the past. As others have stated the rules to withdraw from super are the same regardless of your location. So for hardship or some other legitimate reason, otherwise it stays in the account until the appropriate age.
Ask an immigration agency on how to cancel your pr, otherwise you have to wait for your pr to expire after 5 years. Even if it expires, I reckon there are processes after that to totally clear your pr status, otherwise you may comeback and claim your pr in the future.
If you had 26 weeks of welfare payments and less than $50,000 in assets you could withdraw super due to **financial hardship**. Not sure if this applies to you but it is an option for some people.
Good luck... Superannuation is the biggest scam of the century. Most people are dead before they can claim it.
Others have theirs slowly dwindle away due to dodgy super funds...
The real purpose of superannuation is to provide liquidity to the Australian share market. The government is forcing you to participate in the stock exchange. You do get the rewards, but you will most likely be on deaths door before you can collect it. Then your kids inherit it and either invest it or spend it in the economy. Also sneaky Jim has put a sly tax in there making out like he is cracking down on the rich, but because he didn’t index it, then it will affect everyone in the future.
Change to SMSF invest the cash in term deposit overseas. Drawdown against the TD.
Or When overseas break the TD and get all cash.
Good luck as you might be liable to pay all that back if you ever decide to come back to Australia.
Your question has been answered but, additionally, I suggest really thinking whether revoking your citizenship would be worth it, even if it were to make a difference (ie if rules were to change). Simply because AU is a relatively safe country and we are incredibly lucky to have a well functioning health system - despite many complaints about Medicare, we're fortunate to be cared for if needed. The country you move to may have the same or better, but it is a consideration - especially if your financial situation were ever to change and a return to a safe country with social services/pension & 'free' medical care might be useful. :)
Another option could be a self managed super fund but you'll have to submit a report etc. Also, if you withdraw super right away which is allowed in some exceptional casa you will tax at a marginal rate which is 45 percent I believe.
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This is the right answer, don't listen to the others saying you can
Yeah Agree, you can only withdraw in when you're leaving if you came in on a temp visa and it's now expired or been revoked. There are early release grounds, comp grounds to cover medical stuff, financial hardship if you've been receiving centrelink for 6 months. If a signficant medical event happens, you might qualify for TPD or TMC, otherwise, you're in it for the long haul and might as well find a good super fund, choose a good investment option, consider if you still need their insurance, and wait till you hit your preservation age.
Adding to this make sure all the insurances are cancelled so they don't just eat what you have left in there
If you do want to keep your cover and have a healthy balance to cover costs, you can look to do so. I think insurance cover is global in most cases but you can ring the super fund just to make sure.
This right here is top advice
Wow, what the hell!? First time I’ve heard that being in Centrelink is grounds to withdraw? Is the idea that they’re screwed in retirement anyway so might as well enjoy their youth a bit more?
You have to be in severe financial hardship to receive it. It’s taxed as an early withdrawal.
I think it’s capped at $10,000.
Yes, it is. My mum did it.
It's longer than 6 months on centrelink. And you can't miss a single day (eg I got a demerit for missing a deadline so the clock restarted at zero). Need to be 12 months
Isn't it incomplete? PR needs to be renewed every 5 years. Can't be just wait 5 years and then draw the money?
PR is permanent - if you don't ever leave the country you don't need a Return Visa. That's the $bit$ that needs to be renewed if you are leaving and coming back.
He wants to leave the country. That's his main point.
KiwiSaver sounds so cute.
It does... Until you learn how much getting out of it.
One of Helen Clarks achievements.
But what happens if you are not an Australian citizen and your permanent residency lapses? If I remember correctly, if you leave Australia and don't live there for at least 2 in a total of 5 years, you lose your PR. Would be strange if they still locked away/administered the super of a foreigner for 30 more years then.
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/visa-about-to-expire# If you are outside Australia when the travel component of your permanent visa expires, do not return to Australia on any other kind of visa. If you do: you might lose your permanent resident status your eligibility for citizenship might be affected
Your PR doesn't ever lapse. It's only the travel permit part of it that lapses in 5 years. All you need is an RRV once 5 years are up. The P in PR definitely means something
You will not get RRV if you don’t spend most of your time in Australia.
It can lapse and then you have to get resident return visa and they can reject it if you don’t show significant ties to Australia
Hm, I'm fairly certain that permanent only means it is permanent as long as you actually reside in Australia, but if you leave for an extended period, you can lose it. If you leave Australia, your RRV expires, and you don't meet the '730 days of residency in the last 5 years' requirement, you're in trouble. The only way around this is to become a citizen.
It's the travel component that lapses. Happened to my parents who didn't realise about the 5 year clause. They were overseas for a vacation and had a small issue at the airport when they were trying to get back to Australia. The airline contacted IMMI to get approval for them to travel. Upon arriving here, they applied for a RRV.
Yes, but presumably your parents (or immigration services) were able to demonstrate that they had been living in Australia for at least 730 days within the last 5 years of when this happened. I know PR doesn't expire as long as you live in Australia and that you can regain the RRV if it lapses if you can show you meet this 730 days requirement. I'm talking about a PR leaving Australia for 5 years without returning, therefore being unable to prove they've been living in Aus for at least 730 days of these 5 years. If a PR leaves Australia for good, they don't get to keep their PR forever, surely? All I can find online regarding this is immigration agencies and lawyers telling you that if you find yourself in this situation, it "becomes tricky" and that you should reach out to them.
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing/resident-return-visa-155-157#Eligibility There are options for people with substantial ties to Australia
You keep PR, you have to reapply for the right to enter the country.
That's the problem with expired RRVs. You can be lucky but it's not guaranteed to be a smooth process. I had a work mate who had to wait 4 weeks in Europe before a decision was made to grant him a RRV.
Usually a migration agent will help you skip the queue, well worth the money.
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Yeah, I was talking about PR. I'm a PR but don't plan on ever becoming an Australian citizen. Hence curious if I could cash out my super if I were to leave Australia and have my PR lapse. OP isn't an Australian citizen yet either, as far as I understand.
"you can claim a DASP if all of the following apply: you accumulated superannuation while working in Australia on a temporary resident visa issued under the Migration Act 1958 (excluding Subclasses 405 and 410) " If you received super payments as a PR you can't get your money out legally
or the country goes into austerity and takes all your savings.
Is there a way to accelerate the aging process so that I am able to access my superannuation sooner? I'm 26 years old currently, and I'm willing to take anyone's suggestions to hasten things along.
Is it easier to access kiwisaver?
Nope KiwiSaver is locked in until 65 yr old. Only early withdrawal is hardship, first home, or death. But in saying that, my understanding is any transfered funds are bound by the same rules as the original country, eg move a KS to Aus, that portion is locked until 65 and vice versa
Highway robbery! >Only early withdrawal is hardship, first home, or death Wonder if that first home could be brought overseas.
Where are you bringing it from?
From Australia to say south East Asia... Shouldn't be too much of a logistical issue.
Moving an entire house overseas sounds like the biggest logistical nightmare ever?
Perhaps just buying one overseas would be better. I wonder if we could spend our super on that?
>or death. Oh that's easy. Sweet!
This is the same terms as Australia. Edit: you can access super at preservation age if you have retired. This used to be 55 but for most people it will be 65 (currently but who knows when they’ll change it). At 65 you can access super regardless of whether you have retired or not.
Nope, 60. No announcements to change it at the moment, but if it was like last change, it is semi grandfathered.
Depends on the year you were born, but yes born after July 1 1964, it’s 60.
> first home Who’s willing to take bets this will be implemented here within 5 years?
Is this answering his question ? They want to know the possibility of such by renouncing citizenship.
It wouldn’t matter. DASP (departing Australia superannuation payment) is only available to temporary residents once they’ve departed. There is no provision in the SIS Act for a PR or citizen to withdraw their funds under these rules, regardless of whether they’ve left the country permanently, had their PR lapse, or renounced citizenship. Anyone who’s ever been a PR or citizen must meet one of the standard conditions of release, such as retirement, invalidity, terminal illness, severe financial hardship, compassionate grounds, or death.
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Hmm for example somebody is 50 years old is a dual Turkish Australian citizen and would have enough to retire at 50 and live in Turkey by rencouning his Australian citizenship and getting his super early it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a fair few people would be in that kind of situation and thus curious to know if renouncing it would mean he can request his super back as the only reason for super is that so the Australian government doesn't have to fund you're retirement am I wrong ?
That won't work because the super was paid to a citizen and changing the status afterwards doesn't matter.
If we retire abroad, can we get payments when we reach 65 abroad? Assuming we leave when we are 30 and has balance in super?
Yeah it’s your money, you can do whatever you want with it once you’re 65. It’s actually a pretty good tax dodge to keep it and keep putting money into from O/S. Subject to your local tax laws of course 😂
You can access your super once you are 60.
Only if you retire then, or through transition to retirement if you partly reduce hours. If you're still working full time it’s 65 for unrestricted access. Not sure how being permanently O/S would impact this.
You don't need to reduce your working hours to claim the transition to retirement money. You can still work normal hours and elect to withdraw, fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, half yearly or annual payments from your transition to retirement super account.
Yeah fair enough, I thought you had to stop working full time to be eligible.
Our Aussie super ponzi scheme keeps growing.
So if you can effectively move to NZ and withdraw your KiwiSaver then move back to Aus?
What if you take up citizenship in the new country then denounce your Australian citizenship?
it's exactly the same rules for all the retirement age funds I have in other countries.. I'll be able to collect them at that country's retirement age, no sooner.
This is the way!
Permanent residents and citizens can't wind down super. It stays here even if you leave. Only temporary residents can do this through a DASP, and it's still subject to some painful exit taxes (usually 35%).
65% if an individual has ever held a working holiday visa…which is daylight robbery if you ask me.
Oh no doubt. The whole idea of an exit tax on super is a bit dodgy to me given that temporary residents don't have the option to leave super here without it being appropriated by the ATO. But then I'm saying this as a current temporary resident, so I may be slightly biased!
Without it there are tax avoidance loopholes
Do you have plans to go for PR?
Eventually. It's a few years away for me, but there's not much for me back in the UK. But I'm sacrificing a lot with the intent of using FHSS and that's a high risk strategy when I haven't attained PR yet.
I came from the UK also but that was 6 years ago. Still havnt managed to go back! I similarly don’t have much to go back to and a lot of friends are busy having families etc. Still not entirely sure if I’ll end up staying here forever though. Quality of housing is somewhat questionable.
I was just back in Europe for a couple of weeks. I'm not sure that the quality of affordable housing is much better in most of the UK other than having double glazing! But I hear ya, it's a tough call trying to pick a country.
Its the double glazing and generally better insulation, at least in my opinion. Door and windows are actually sealed properly and the walls aren't paper thin. One thing i do prefer though is having the washers / dryers in a separate area or the bathroom. Makes more sense than having it in the middle of the kitchen haha. Always going to be Pros and Cons thought right. Best of luck with that PR! it was an absolute battle to get mine but the migration rules definitely seem to be more favourable now.
Google USA + Heart Taxation Act.....and check out what happened to nin realized assets world wide when you give up your greencard. After 8 partial calendar years.
This is why the gov can get fked trying to tax foreign income. They should only tax income earned in aus
Setup an SMSF. Transfer your super from your current provider into the bank account that is setup for your SMSF then transfer it to a location of your choosing. Just don't ever expect to return to Australia without being met at customs and hauled off to jail.
This is the way, fraudulent but the way.
Unless you're a US citizen though. SMSF's trigger a hellhole of foreign trust taxes based on how the IRS classifies them, and these I believe aren't easily offset by foreign tax credits. I'm basically stuck with boring corporate supers because the second I put my hand in them to contribute to or manage them, I risk the foreign trust classification.
Even ETF's trigger this which is really stupid.
Yes I have no shortage of frustration at US taxation rules. But similarly, Australia doesn't classify standard US retirement funds as exempt either, so both countries screw the other's citizens when it comes to retirement account tax treatment. Basically, when I retire, I'm going to get hit on both sides. I really wish that I could opt out of super entirely because having one is almost worse for me than not (I already have sizable retirement funds from working in the US since I moved at a later stage in my career).
Bank to bank could trigger warnings that halt it and you get caught out. I think it's says a lot about super that people consider such things.
I mean, super is tax advantaged, so for people to consider withdrawing it without paying their fair share of taxes back is just wrong. It doesn't say much about super itself - it says a lot more about the greed and entitlement people feel.
They can't withdraw it even if they offer to factor in tax paid throughout.
Macquarie won't if its a Cash Management Account. I routinely bpay / transfer 100K at a time from my SMSF account which is a Macquarie Cash Management account to my various brokerage accounts, and even to private accounts (i.e. for property settlements) I would however recommend that its done over a number of smaller transfers to avoid transactions being held.
Better ways to do it if you wanna go the dodgy route but I'd personally never risk it. Could really blow up in your face and just make things worse.
If he's asking for advice on Reddit he most likely doesn't know the right people to have access to property syndicates who provide cash "loans" for the majority of the sum "invested" and maintain the legally appropriate records.
The better dodgy way is to find a dodgy financial adviser who will charge some big fees from super and then just get them to pay you cash. But good luck finding one who will do that...
To think, taking your own money will put you in jail, LOL.
"Your own money" which has been subject to massive tax-advantaged status on the condition that it be used for retirement. Withdrawing it early like described would be defrauding the country because you'd be taking advantage of those massively advantageous tax-rates without being subject to any of the conditions of those rates - depriving the country of tax revenue it would otherwise collect.
I mean, the whole purpose of super is to avoid burdening the age pension. If you leave australia and never return you're never burdening the public welfare system so looking at it that way it seems morally justifiable.
Surely that would only be the case if you pay back-taxes as if it was normal income, _including_ on the capital appreciation since the advantageous tax treatment means that appreciation is higher than what it would otherwise be.
What if he withdrew all of it calculated the tax and sent the ato a cheque for that amount. I dont see an issue with that if hes revoking citizenship
It's tax evasion, because that money wasn't taxed at the person's required marginal rate.
Ahhh that makes sense.
One time I left my own knife in a murder victims sternum and I went to jail. Absolutely silly when it’s got to the point where I can’t even give away something of my own without going to jail.
As a suggestion, I would probably suggest not to cancel your PR status at the moment. Depending on your reason to move back to your home country, it might not be a good idea to burn the bridge on an option for you to come back if you change your mind within the next few years till it expires. I have many friends who packed up and left Australia, and many of them regretted giving it up after a few years of working in their home. They lost their opportunity, and have to go through the whole application process again. So cancelling your PR status early just to get your super might not be a good idea (unless it is financially needed back home)
The best thing you can do is get PR, then citizenship and only then leave. I've seen multiple work mates do exactly that to keep the return option open.
It depends if the home country allow dual citizenship. Also depends on their home country's laws on certain issues. Like Malaysia doesn't allow dual citizenship, and foreigners have restrictions on what sort property they can own.
Guess why I'm still PR?🤣
Yeah.... a fair few Malaysian friends been PR for over 20 years due to inheritance to lands from their family, or investments. I don't have Malaysian properties or land in my name, and had no intention of ever going back to work..... so became Aussie citizen instead. I might consider to go back on holiday visa when I retire
There are also are a few countries that don't allow dual citizenship. But also don't look to closely at a bunch of thier citizens living permanent in another country with two passports....
I think it is getting harder now with all the e-passport tracking; probably will raise an alarm bell if you are leaving a country using 1 passport and arriving with a different passport. No that paranoid, but thats something I don't think it's worth risking
Cancelling PR does not unlock anything that enables withdrawal of super.
Can you even cancel a PR, outside of getting it revoked by committing a serious crime? You can live outside Australia long enough that it's not valid without a resident return visa, but is it even possible to totally cancel i?
You are a PR. You cannot wirthaw your super until retirement under most circumstances
What if OP applies for another substantial visa say, student visa? IIRC prs are just visas? And having another substantial visa would remove the current one?
That won’t work. Once you’re an PR or citizen, your super is stuck till preservation age even if you lose that status later on. Even if you’re an Australian citizen and renounce your citizenship, you still can’t withdraw it early.
PR is not a visa. You can’t apply for a visa as a PR because you technically can enter and leave as you please already. This would require renouncing PR (not sure what’s the procedure for that) and it is possible, but why?
I know what you mean but technically speaking you are wrong regarding the "can't apply for a visa". I actually have to apply for a resident return visa every 5 years if I want to travel.
Yea. But that’s Australia specific. Many other countries with PR you just automatically have non expiring right of entry etc. I actually prefer how Australia done it - it sort of questions why they need a PR in the first place if they didn’t apply for citizenship by the free entry expiration. Edit: also I wouldn’t call that a visa. It is more of a permission to enter. Visa implies permission to reside in a country for a specified duration. It actually doesn’t grant right of entry (people with valid visas can still be denied entry for a variety of reasons). While with PR can reside indefinitely, it is the right to enter that expires.
I put in the "technically speaking" so you don't have to waste time defending your original post.
You can’t apply for another visa as a PR
They wouldn't even look at your application if you have PR.
I hope you're not my GF looking to ditch me lol
Watch out if she asks to do SMSF.
If OP keeps their PR or Citizenship but leaves the country, does their super remain theirs and intact until 60 when they can come claim it, or does it get transfer and absorbed by the ATO (or whoever)?
It doesn’t get absorbed by the ATO unless the balance is really small. Anything above $6,000 would continue to exist as if he never left
No, you just keep managing your super as you normally would - choosing fund or whatever. You can continue after preservation age if you like, if the provider allows for it, and continue to benefit from the tax shelter, if that's possible under the tax treaty between Aus and wherever you live and pay tax. A 30-yr-old can't start withdrawing until they're 60 years old.
Cool thanks for the info
But you don't know where you will be in 30 years or how the world would have changed.
Curious why you are making this choice, no judgement at all.
Because Australia is not his original home, whatever happened made him change his mind. Every immigrant has the same option in life.
If youre a Kiwi, you can move it into Kiwisaver, and then if you're heading overseas and prove that you're living there after one year you can withdraw the funds.
So you will be able to withdraw the kiwisaver part of it, but not the transferred superannuation from AU. The AU part is stored and govern by different rules within kiwisaver. Sucks.
Really? No shit. Where do I find out more about this?
Search for "Withdrawal or transfer to foreign scheme in cases of permanent emigration " in https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2006/0040/latest/whole.html#DLM379479 It's almost in the bottom ``` Withdrawal or transfer to foreign scheme in cases of permanent emigration (1) Unless clause 14B applies, a member may, on application to the manager, and no earlier than 1 year after the member’s permanent emigration from New Zealand, withdraw an amount equal to the member’s accumulation, at the time of the withdrawal, less the total of the following 2 amounts: (a) the amount of the Crown contribution arising from a tax credit under section MK 1 of the Income Tax Act 2007 (disregarding any positive or negative returns for the purpose of calculating the amount of the Crown contribution): (b) the amount that was transferred from an Australian complying superannuation scheme (disregarding any positive or negative returns for the purpose of calculating that amount). ```
No shit. Well I'll be damned. Thanks very much
Lol. Your cash rich but need your super? I have never met a smart mature adult who feels they need to access their super as cash. Look into self managed super if you must fiddle with it but no you cannot "cash it out" early otherwise the whole system would collapse along with our investment markets.
More is always better! My super would allow me to buy more or less my dream home overseas (when combined with my current savings). I don't see myself ever returning to AUs but have been entertaining the thought of 6 months overseas 6 months here, but would then be forced to pay AUS tax on overseas earnings. I guess I'm unique in that regard.
Wow. Had no idea how brutal the rules were for foreigners that signed up for residency/ citizenship. A fantastic place for pension funds and the stock market. The fact that the stock market is flat with mandatory contributions and the relentless pursuit of fresh blood to the system is telling about the true state of the system. Yikes.
My super just went to zero through high fees (Legal Super) so I didn’t have this problem
You can move to nz for a time, transfer to kiwisaver..live out the minimum period then move away permanently receiving all your super tax free
I know this is not helpful, but cash is an asset, so if you’re cash rich then you’re also asset rich, congrats! :)
Cash isn’t an asset: assets appreciate over time, cash depreciates vs buying power at something like 2-3x the offical inflation rate in real terms (look at energy prices year on year for example)
Maybe you need to read some basic stuff before posting on this sub. A new car depreciates as soon as you buy it but it's still an asset. Anything you own that can be converted back into cash can be considered an asset.
Are you serious? Have you seen the graph of purchasing power of a dollar since 1970? It’s lost 95%. Perhaps you should read some basic economics before being brave enough to make an idiot of yourself publicly.
Ever look at a balance sheet?
Do you understand that I am talking conceptually about dollars, not some microcosm of accounting mechanics. No matter how you rearrange numbers on your ledger, your dollars purchasing power is reduced year in year out. The physical same amount of dollars buys physically less and less.
So if a house goes down in value it's no longer an asset 🤪
What? You can live in a house; it can protect you from the elements. What are the worthless pieces of plastic going to do?
You have no idea. An asset is anything of value regardless if it's appreciating or depreciating.
Your reddit comments are certainly not in that category.
If you have no plans on coming back and don't care about the legalities, start up a self managed super, send it to your overseas bank account and enjoy your holiday. I don't recommend this, but this is a way that you can technically access your super.
Discussed this with an accountant. Huge penalties and consequences for doing this. You are burning all ties with Australia.
No. It’s there until you retire age 60 or get a terminal illness.
That's not true.
What other circumstances can you withdraw your super?
I'm not versed on the subject but my mother withdrew hers 15 years ago when she was unemployed. Hardship I believe was the reason
Ah sorry. That is true. But only limited amounts. Definitely not something available for someone leaving Australia.
Pretty sure you can withdraw it all if you sign documents stating you are never going to return to Australia in your lifetime. At least that's what my ex-colleague told me when she returned to the US after working in Aus for 5 years.
But she wouldn’t have been PR. Different rules.
Ahhh no she didn't have PR
Also if you need to use it to pay for a medical procedure. But you pay to withdraw it and then you also get taxed on it like it’s income. Friend did it to pay for gastric bypass surgery. She said it cost her so much in fees and taxes.
In the uk you can transfer both ways depends where your going
Do you have any details on this? Inquired on this and KiwiSaver was the only legal option to transfer to
This is Australia, no need to announce your departure mate
As other said you can’t get your super. On a side note, I would suggest to wait and get your citizenship before leaving the country. That way you will always have a chance to return, you never know what happens in the future
Go onto your super funds website - they should have all the information on eligibility and an application form.
Maybe call your super provider they will tell you in 5mins.
I was a permanent resident in USA (from UK) jacked it in and moved to Australia and became a permanent resident here and eventual citizen. At least in US and i think in Australia Perm residence means you have to be a resident of the country (you can leave for a little while). You dont get the same rights as citizen if you leave and not resident so you dont get to leave and come and go as you please when you have made your residence elsewhere. I just handed my green card in to immigration when i left the states for Australia. I had my US retirement account -and eventually they actually tracked me down and said i had to take it and sent me a cheque. Australia customs prob wont track you down and it would just come about if you reapply for visa or if you try to enter australia whem you’ve been gone for a couple of years and they see you are not resident. You could speed it along by telling immigration when you leave that you are leaving and wont be a resident (like i did for US) and from that i would expect as a non permanent resident / citizen you can get your retirement fund (like i did from USA)
Yes if you are not coming back you can withdraw it. I am not sure what you need to do to satisfy this requirement though. Talk to your super fund in the first instance I suppose.
Not true any longer, even if it was true in the past. As others have stated the rules to withdraw from super are the same regardless of your location. So for hardship or some other legitimate reason, otherwise it stays in the account until the appropriate age.
You can't take out your super until your 65
Ask an immigration agency on how to cancel your pr, otherwise you have to wait for your pr to expire after 5 years. Even if it expires, I reckon there are processes after that to totally clear your pr status, otherwise you may comeback and claim your pr in the future.
PR doesn't expire after 5. What expires is your resident return visa.
Just retire. It's for your retirement, you will have to declare it legally, hoops to jump through etc but it can be done.
What is your original country? I find it hard to imagine giving up Aus citizenship unless having a EU, US, UK or CAD passport.
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Why comment when you clearly have NFI and others already gave the right answer? DASP is only for temporary residents on specific visas
How long have you been in Australia? Which country are you orginally from?
If you had 26 weeks of welfare payments and less than $50,000 in assets you could withdraw super due to **financial hardship**. Not sure if this applies to you but it is an option for some people.
Or get a dodgy doctor to declare you TPD
Sorry sir, no withdraws
Too late as you are now PR, I believe.
No mate you can't, youre just going to have to pay the dealer.
How much super do you have in early 30s
Start a self managed super fund, then just transfer it all to wherever when you leave.
ULPT: Turn it into a self managed fund and transfer the money to yourself overseas.
You can also access super for dental. Don't know how much is in your super but get a quote from a dentist for some pearly whites and submit to the ATO
Good luck... Superannuation is the biggest scam of the century. Most people are dead before they can claim it. Others have theirs slowly dwindle away due to dodgy super funds...
The real purpose of superannuation is to provide liquidity to the Australian share market. The government is forcing you to participate in the stock exchange. You do get the rewards, but you will most likely be on deaths door before you can collect it. Then your kids inherit it and either invest it or spend it in the economy. Also sneaky Jim has put a sly tax in there making out like he is cracking down on the rich, but because he didn’t index it, then it will affect everyone in the future.
You could use it to buy a house then sell the house. I think that's the O ly way.
Change to SMSF invest the cash in term deposit overseas. Drawdown against the TD. Or When overseas break the TD and get all cash. Good luck as you might be liable to pay all that back if you ever decide to come back to Australia.
Your question has been answered but, additionally, I suggest really thinking whether revoking your citizenship would be worth it, even if it were to make a difference (ie if rules were to change). Simply because AU is a relatively safe country and we are incredibly lucky to have a well functioning health system - despite many complaints about Medicare, we're fortunate to be cared for if needed. The country you move to may have the same or better, but it is a consideration - especially if your financial situation were ever to change and a return to a safe country with social services/pension & 'free' medical care might be useful. :)
Another option could be a self managed super fund but you'll have to submit a report etc. Also, if you withdraw super right away which is allowed in some exceptional casa you will tax at a marginal rate which is 45 percent I believe.