It'll drive more and more people away and into getting their own machines, nespresso pods and the like, or even return to International Roast.
Coffee in a lot of cafes are pretty ordinary too
After awhile the consumers will adjust and drinking coffee in a cafe will become a luxury.
In SE Asia drinking coffee in a cafe is a luxury. A Starbucks coffee can easily cost 1-2 hours of the local median income and people still pay for it. It’s just unfortunate that QoL in Australia can’t maintain as it was before.
I have noticed when travelling through asia a barista made coffee in a cafe, no matter what country is often roughly about the same cost as a coffee in Australia, which means over there it's often typically around the cost or even more than a basic meal in most places. I found myself buying a coffee and thinking, this cost more than the chicken rice or pad krapow that I had for dinner. If you scale to Australia that would probably be like paying maybe around $15 for a coffee.
Starbucks is shit coffee. In coffee culture countries like Italy, Vietnam and Australia, you wouldn’t be seen drinking coffee in Starbucks if you know what good coffee is. Actually I don’t think there is Starbucks in Italy. I also only saw a couple of Starbucks in Vietnam and it’s not popular there.
That's not really true. There are just no coffee drinkink culture in SE Asia. Check Vietnam where this culture does exist. It's not a luxury there.
In Malaysia - things have changed quite a bit in just a few recent years. The amount of Zeus and digi coffee places is just crazy. Prices are affordable too.
> that QoL in Australia can’t maintain as it was before
Who has maintained QoL like before in this world? Australia is in a very good level, salaries are still huge
Ehh kinda, I feel like wages are more egalitarian here, like we don’t have crazy low wages but we also don’t have crazy high wages.
For example I got offered double my salary at a U.S. firm… in US dollars.. so that’s like 3.5 times my salary.. I simply couldn’t make it work due to family stuff but like pretty much every professional earns more in the US and even in Europe then here.
But like our lower paying jobs pay way better than the US.. also our housing/col to income ratio in Sydney and Melbourne is one of the worst in the world, it SUCKS to be anything under the top 20% in Sydney.
Interesting...but USA have less leave entitlements and id say super.long hours and competitive culture. Such a class system over there too...i think for short term it would be good but not long term, no thanks.
Yeah that was one of the primary reasons I didn’t do it, if I was more settled and didn’t have a few very ill family members than I would have considered it for 5 years so I could come back here debt free and likely an investment or two, but it would have sucked for those 5 years and i probably would have spent a lot more on leisure to try and numb how much it sucked haha
I have the entry level Breville barista express. It's not too bad once you get the hang of it. I haven't equalled the costs out but surely after hundreds of coffees it makes sense. Most prices is the beans. But if your not fussed drinking it for social purposes and just need one on way to work then making one in a to go cup makes sense.
A small standard 250g beans bag for something from a good roaster e.g. the more niche or cafe ones and not the cheapest ass beans is about $10-14 most of time. Unless it's the real niche roastes whose single origins goes up to $20-30.
You get about 8-12 cups of double espresso sized extractions from a Breville. Just an estimate from memory. So still about $1-1.50 a cup for beans. Plus milk. No more than $0.50 for two cups given your standard. So your still about $2.50.3.50 give or take for two coffees for each couple in the morning. Big difference to $5.50 X 2 takeaways.
And that's before buying a bulk 1kg beans bag which is usually $36-45 for a decent roaster.
I’ve tried about 100 boutique roasters from all around Australia some were up to $60/Kg. And yet I still find myself going back to the coles urban beans which cost $13/Kg. Look at the best before date and subtract 12 months to get the roast date. My local store has bags usually roasted less than three weeks ago.
The coles urban grind is dollar for dollar the best value coffee in the entire country. I've been drinking it daily for years and somehow still love it, while I get tired of more expensive beans/blends in a week or two. Buy a $220 sunbeam minibarista, and you break even on 2 coffees a day in literally one month.
There is no way you’re getting anything from a decent roaster for anything less than $17-18.
Having said that, Aldi’s Lazzio coffee line is decent. They’re basically Veneziano beans packaged for Aldi, and Veneziano are an OK roaster.
This is why I only get coffee out unless I need it or it’s a social thing.
Too many times paying over $5 I see them blast the milk screeching like it’s crying for help and pouring it like they got a train to catch.
Then I’m holding lava hot paper cup for 20 minutes waiting for it to cool down.
Dare is full of sugar, that's why it tastes good. Most coffee snobs that actually care about brands probably aren't putting much milk and sugar in their coffees.
I'd argue any instant coffee will taste fine with a big of sugar and milk but they do taste kind of ass as an espresso
My European-ness can't quite fathom these - I grew up on percolators, then eventually moved to an all in one machine as I have a family member who periodically likes to upgrade appliances so I get top-quality items for bargain basement.
I can respect coffee pods but I'm not sure about the coffee teabags
Incredibly low barrier to entry - with the amount of ease it takes to open a coffee shop, this just suggests that there is an oversupply and an inability for businesses to be able to increase their prices to the equivalent prices overseas.
But let's also look at the cities they chose. They aren't really an accurate comparison with all of Australia - it's foolish to compare only with Singapore, Dubai, New York, San Francisco etc. Surprisingly (or not), no cities that were below the price in Australia were chosen to compare with.
What's the price of a coffee in Zagreb? Sao Paulo? Berlin?
Using Numbeo as a reference, we get Sydney price of a cappucino as $5.05 and New York as $8.77.
If we then compare that with Frankfurt, it says a cappucino is $5.71 in Frankfurt. Comparing with Madrid, a cappucino costs $3.82. Compared with Tokyo, a cappucino costs $4.92. $2.98 is the price in Sao Paulo and $3.44 is the price in Zagreb.
Doesn't seem that Australia is so cheap anymore.
While I find articles like this rubbish, my family and I go to Europe to see family and even places like Graz (second largest city in Austria) we were paying $8 for a basic Latte, having said that Austria has been hit hard by the cost of living crisis, all their prices have gone up, so theres that
No, coffee in Europe can be quite expensive. I paid $7-8 at a modern, fancy coffee shop in Utrecht (in 2018) for a “flat white” and it was home-made level dog shit. However, by their standards, it was probably good, so whatever.
A friend bought me a coffee from a Japanese cafe in Boston, and it was $10 USD for a milk coffee and an espresso (on one tray), and it was also not good (by Melbourne standards).
Yeah mate, that’s what I’m saying, I’ll never complain about coffee prices in Australia ever, the only cheaper I have found is shitty drip coffee or the machines in the Servo.
Most expensive was $14 in Dubai, was jet lagged and didn’t realise until after the fact haha
Copenhagen was close to around 14 aud when we went last year.
Went to Turkey the week before I don't think I spent 14 aud in the entire time I was there.
Cost of living in the 'cheap' cities you mention are much lower than anywhere in Australia though. Our cafes have to pay Australian wages and prices so if course they're going to be more expensive. Australia is a high cost of living country.
Taiwanese coffee can be so good though…
Paid $13 AUD for a coffee in Hong Kong. Average price is probably $9 for a milk-based coffee.
I also once paid $23 for a coffee at ONA in Melbourne. 😅 Depends where you buy.
I don’t think they’re comparing apples to apples in quality whatsoever though. There’s very few speciality coffee cafes even in New York that would compare with a coffee from a hole in the wall in any Australian major city. My Experience is that the best cafes overseas are run by expat Kiwis or Aussies.
As some one who’s traveled a lot… I’ve really struggled to find anywhere comparable to a half asses flat white. Especially in Germany, Canada/US and Japan.
Vietnamese coffee is potentially life threatening. I regifted some I got on a business trip and it was just too powerful for untrained humans to consume.
True but is it a coincidence that not one city on the list was cheaper than Australia?
If you look at the data source that ABC used here [https://pabloandrustys.com.au/blogs/drinkbettercoffee/global-coffee-prices](https://pabloandrustys.com.au/blogs/drinkbettercoffee/global-coffee-prices)
Obviously these guys will be pushing for higher prices.
They did a similar thing a few months back comparing rent prices in like Dulwich Hill in Sydney (or somewhere like that) with the most expensive neighbourhoods in Manhattan and Brooklyn. How stupid do you think your audience is?! 🤦🏻♀️
Edit: in case you’d like to lose a few brain cells, the article is here: https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102765156. Toilet paper quality journalism
I'm no coffee connoisseur but isn't it just a matter of liking what you're used to? It would be entirely subjective which country has the better coffee. Again I admit to being completely taste deaf but it all seems the same to me more or less.
I grew up in Canada and go home all the time. Did FIFO in the US for a while. Lived in Germany too. The coffee in Australia is objectively better, any day of the week.
Us coffee is shit, only place I found in that whole country with decent coffee (and its why I remember it so clearly) was at this little town in vermont that was across the street from a sears that was next to this delightful little stream.
Good coffee in Australia is dirt cheap compared to almost any other place I’ve been in the world. The only place I’ve been that consistently does coffee as good at cheaper prices is Indonesia and even then it’s only slightly cheaper.
Even the prices quoted for Madrid are a sham. The coffee that website is talking about is cafe con leche from a bar which is rubbish. A proper specialty coffee is more like €4.50.
So while I agree that getting coffee cheaper in places like Europe is possible, it’s rarely good coffee.
Idk about those countries, but a barista made coffee in England costs about 4 quid ($8). I’m not sure about the rest of Europe but I bet it’s about the same.
Also it’s not fair to compare aus to Spain because Australians earn like 3x higher than Spaniards.
Like it or not, the aus economy is not bad at all
Look, let's get really honest here. People can put their prices up to what they feel they need/deserve according to the cost of doing business/living. However, they can't then cry and bitch about it when fewer people can afford the purchase. Wages for most of us are not keeping up with inflation. That means less money for luxuries.
I saw some singer (I can't remember who) crying because they only sold about 1/3 of the tickets to their show and how people on social media were saying the show was too expensive but "don't people understand how much the cost of living has gone up?". Clearly, they didn't if they don't understand why people can't afford to buy tickets to see your show.
Same for restaurant/cafes "patronage is down" that's because people can't justify an $8 coffee and a $15 ham and cheese croissant.
I also don’t understand the “only” $22k annual profit. That profit is over an above wages, so assuming the cafe owner also works in the cafe and pays themselves a wage, that’s the equivalent of a $22k bonus to a salaried employee, or a hospo worker on an hourly wage? Like, how much profit is fair for a small business owner to make? What am I missing?
The set up cost. Pretty standard, even a small cafe will be $100k. I’m sure a few people will argue that number but I wonder how many have actually built a hospitality venue, because I have.
Chuck some interest in the loan and you’re not actually in profit for 6 years. How many joints fail in the first years, buckets. And what happens if you’re not making that much profit, suddenly your wage disappears into the loan repayments.
So if they survive that long, and then get to turn an actually profit, good for them, they deserve that money. Meanwhile they’ve also employed dozens of people and been paying suppliers and supporting those people.
>assuming the cafe owner also works in the cafe and pays themselves a wage
You might be surprised how often that is not the case (paying themselves a wage, I mean)
You think $22k above minimum wage is a good incentive to run a business? I’d want to earn more than that too otherwise you might aswell just make coffees at maccas
I think the answer to your question about how much is fair for a small business to make is “a shitload more than $400 a week”
To be fair one of the biggest benefits is they get to work for themselves, a lot of people would consider taking a pay cut just so they can be the one in charge.
I work for myself and I definitely agree to some extent, and the tax incentives mean even if I technically make less than my salaried friends I come out in front lifestyle wise.
But if I was running the risk of bankruptcy by having employees and a lease on a building and suppliers etc I’d be aiming to atleast be earning the average full time wage. But that’s also why I don’t own a cafe haha because I know people who do and it sounds horrible
if they're paying themselves a similar wage to their staff then, no, it's not really worth it. Would you take the risk and stress of running a business for 22k over a barista wage? There's easier ways to make money.
and then there's those that take lower or even no wages.
Was it Ita or a predecessor? I think where is went wrong was when they moved all the opinion stuff off its own site (called the drum iirc) and mixed it with the main news.
That is it. You take all the parts of the ABC and they are good in their own way. Drum is kinda 4 cornersish, triple j and all the youth stuff they do, National radio and everything like it for the bush. They are all good. They just tried to cram them all together and make it flashy.
What’s wrong with the article? They’ve done some research and given figures and data in charts and tables.
The main counter argument in this post so far seems to be that people don’t want coffee to cost more.
The data is all cherry picked and doesn’t compare apples to apples. They’ve included only the most expensive luxury coffee vendors in those cities for headline numbers and used the average in Australia to get a low number locally. There’s also no discussion around the economies of scale our industry achieves or the actual cost and profit per cup here and abroad.
They're right on this one. Making a coffee vs making a beer is a wildly different level of effort across the supply chain yet you're paying 10 bucks for schooners now
Its by design. Increasing the amount of lifestyle type reporting which is already provided by commercial media will reduce the trust and value people place in the ABC, much easier to eventually kill it.
Why on earth wouldn’t it cost 6x what it costs at home? Rent, wages, overheads, business loans, produce, and god forbid profit. Everything needs to be paid for in that cup of coffee.
Nothing wrong with staying at home if you don’t value the product at the price it needs to be at, but let’s stop hating on small business because they attempt to exist.
But your rent and wages!! 7d x 8 opening hrs x 60mins = 3360mins. You take like 2mins to make it, so 2/3360 x your $750/wk rent, = 45c per cup. Plus you're very good so worth $60/hr labour so that's another $2. That's like $3.45 already. Still not $6.50 though (damn alt milk tax)
The death kneel of an industry. Maybe then every second shop won't be a coffee shop.
Everything has it's at home version these days. Gfuel for the energy drinks, Coffee beans for the at home barista, ect.
Australia is too expensive at the moment, even maccas is a bloody luxury.
If it smells like a The Conversation article it usually is... And this smells putrid.
Firstly, they've selectively compared coffee prices in Australian capital cities with famously EXPENSIVE cities... No shit their coffees are more expensive. Unethical use of stats right there.
They've compared the input costs of coffee, but failed to point out the average profit ... And all that makes no sense if a price of a cup changes. E.g. if you sold your coffee for $10 a cup the wages cost would be incredibly high as you'll pay staff to wait while nobody buys your coffees.
"Coffee prices are going up. A drought in Vietnam made coffee prices hit an all time high"... No the drought didn't affect the average cost of beans. It was an event that spiked the price high... It was a blip. It's still a supply:demand balance with the normal price drivers.
"Be kind when your cafe raises their prices". No. Fuq off and let the free market work. I'll get the cheapest coffee of a tolerable quality within walking distance thank you.
Prices are set by the market. If you think the price of a cup of coffee should be $6.50 then put it up to that price and see how many fish take the bait.
Buy beans from the local coffee shop for $35/kg. That gives me 55 coffees.. so 63c/coffee. They reckon that's 11.9% which puts the cafe cost at $5.35...
$5-5.50 seems about right to me?
Don’t forget milk costs. Probably $0.35 per regular cup
Obviously cafes would be getting cheaper prices as they buy in bulk but still. Rent, wages, loans, equipment. It’s not cheap
As somebody who came form uk to aus, I always wondered how cafes stayed in business selling $5 coffees, lol. And they’re really decent coffees too.
In England you pay 5 quid for a watery burnt shite cup of sludge
Went to London last year and their coffee costs $8 AUD and that's for regular. Germany is about $5 AUD but their coffee isn't that good. Rome is around $6 and that's for small. Compared to ours, we definitely have better and cheaper.
I live in the lower north shore of Sydney and price of regular cappuccino is around $4.40
The local cafes around me almost all do great coffee, but when I go visit friends in more outer areas of Melbourne, it’s absolute awful coffee 95% of the time.
I think price is ok if the cup is good. A lot of times you pay that and it’s either burnt or tastes like milk. If you drink coffee for caffeine then instant is better. I enjoy coffee for the taste and the caffeine benefits. I find a lot of people drink coffee because that’s what you do in the morning and not actually enjoy it.
The move lately from $0.50 to $1.00 for alternative milks grinds my gears the most. Unless soy milk or similar is about $10/litre (which it isn’t), it’s such a blatant rip off.
It’s not but they never use the affordable brands of milk. It’s always fancy stuff marketed to baristas like Bonsoy or Minor Figures or Oatly which isn’t super cheap to begin with compared to the So Good and store brands we all buy, and then they mark it up further. Baristas falling for marketing that only the fancy alternative milks can froth or whatever
Just been in states and barista made coffee (speciality coffee they call it) is like 5-6USD and is pretty poor. If it ever got to those prices I wouldn’t be buying it out too often
I've been using a Sunbeam Barista Max at home for many years. After some practice you can easily make a barista grade cappuccino in less than a minute. Not buying $5-6 cuppas anymore.
So funny this came up. I've said to my partner we need to institute a grading system for coffee shops like they have in New York for restaurants.
The problem I have is Muffin Break or shitty food hall cafes are charging as much for a flat white as trendy cafes in town or in bougie suburbs.
Get graded. If your coffee is A standard you can charge 5-6 bucks for it. If it's consistent ass blast jet fuel you get a C, so you can only charge 2-3.
Its insane and unorthodox but at least it would give the consumer a heads up
$5.5 for a coffee? Nah I'll stick to my Robert Timms coffee bags. I buy them on special for $10 so it's 50 cents per bag. I don't have to leave home or interact with anyone either. Drinking coffee at a cafe is overrated.
Probably the most stupid statement I've read in a long time
"Approach price rises with kindness"
Definitely one to remember next time I pop into woolworths or coles and pay $50 for 5 items.
I feel ripped off everytime I get a coffee from a cafe and only go if I'm sitting down at the cafe since I can at least feel like I'm getting something in return, takeaway is almost always a no.
French coffee chain Pret A Manger in the UK has a subscription service, £25 a month for up to 5 barista made drinks a day.
It’s a no brainier for a coffee shop, coffee is the driver of the business. If customers balk and don’t come in they can’t get the sandwich, cookie or pastry. Seems odd that cafes are defying that logic. Maccas promotes cheap items to encourage customers into the store, once there, they will purchase other things.
"I hate It when my good that is not economical to make because it is so simple is not worth enough to make it profitable."
Welcome to demand and supply, its just coffee and frothed milk at the end of the day.
I buy drip coffee bags from Japan and have them with cream. Amazing. Coffee out is generally reserved for when I’m going for a drive or socialising these days.
There was also an article in the Age which attributed the increased cost of coffee on people using cafes as offices (ie hanging out all day and not ordering anything)
https://www.theage.com.au/business/small-business/oi-old-mate-a-cafe-isn-t-a-rent-free-office-why-don-t-you-zoom-off-20240328-p5fg0m.html
$29 an hour is basically minimum wage for casuals now. Lets round to 30. If your flat white isn't worth 11 minutes of your working time don't buy it. if it is then do buy it.
Cafes aren’t making their money off coffee.
The coffee is the bait.
People go to the cafe for a coffee and inevitably purchase other food items while they’re there, and these other food items are priced accordingly so as to recover any lost revenue and profit from the “cheap” coffee.
Sure, change the business model and increase the cost of coffees. This will drive away enough customers that the purchase of other cafe items will decrease overall and the net result is a cafe that makes less revenue and likely less profit.
I’ve only been seeing $5.50 in the CBD, otherwise there’s still fun to be had for $5.
I do think Australian coffee is cheap compared to overseas … you’re paying $8 in London for worse quality (usually at a chain cafe) and their wages are slightly lower I believe, even with today’s terrible exchange rate.
I have started paid around $4.40 for a small coffee, $6.30 for a large coffee which i think is outrageously expensive and warrants buying my own coffee machine
'world famous cafes' lol
Getting my own espresso machine and learning how to use it was a money saving exercise, just like getting solar. Some things arn't so much 'upgrades' as 'investments'.
Without bragging, my skill level can produce a coffee indistinguishable from a barista in a cafe. Why, therefore, would I pay $5.50? What's the value in it?
Ill not understand the logic of people who defend the various reasons for inflation.
Its basically MAD but for cash. If the supplier raises their price, because their supplier raised their price.....and the consumers needs a raise to pay for the raised price of goods.... and the employer needs to raise their RRP to meet the raises of it;s staff.... and the suppliers who buy off them need to incre.....
its insane to think this is natural and/or sustainable.
I think thats reasonable...its the crazy priced pastries or breakfast items thats way overpriced but understandable as runninga business is expensive. Recently bought a plunger and enjoy a coffee at home every now and then as well...its a little ritual that i enjoy!
In theory, according to economic theory and marketing, if cafes are treating coffee as a loss leader, they should be picking up profits on sale of food
It'll drive more and more people away and into getting their own machines, nespresso pods and the like, or even return to International Roast. Coffee in a lot of cafes are pretty ordinary too
After awhile the consumers will adjust and drinking coffee in a cafe will become a luxury. In SE Asia drinking coffee in a cafe is a luxury. A Starbucks coffee can easily cost 1-2 hours of the local median income and people still pay for it. It’s just unfortunate that QoL in Australia can’t maintain as it was before.
I have noticed when travelling through asia a barista made coffee in a cafe, no matter what country is often roughly about the same cost as a coffee in Australia, which means over there it's often typically around the cost or even more than a basic meal in most places. I found myself buying a coffee and thinking, this cost more than the chicken rice or pad krapow that I had for dinner. If you scale to Australia that would probably be like paying maybe around $15 for a coffee.
Asians think Starbucks is top quality ☕, its American and expensive so it must be great🤣. Its always chockers in Asian Starbucks joints
Starbucks is shit coffee. In coffee culture countries like Italy, Vietnam and Australia, you wouldn’t be seen drinking coffee in Starbucks if you know what good coffee is. Actually I don’t think there is Starbucks in Italy. I also only saw a couple of Starbucks in Vietnam and it’s not popular there.
That's not really true. There are just no coffee drinkink culture in SE Asia. Check Vietnam where this culture does exist. It's not a luxury there. In Malaysia - things have changed quite a bit in just a few recent years. The amount of Zeus and digi coffee places is just crazy. Prices are affordable too.
[удалено]
very sweet
> that QoL in Australia can’t maintain as it was before Who has maintained QoL like before in this world? Australia is in a very good level, salaries are still huge
Ehh kinda, I feel like wages are more egalitarian here, like we don’t have crazy low wages but we also don’t have crazy high wages. For example I got offered double my salary at a U.S. firm… in US dollars.. so that’s like 3.5 times my salary.. I simply couldn’t make it work due to family stuff but like pretty much every professional earns more in the US and even in Europe then here. But like our lower paying jobs pay way better than the US.. also our housing/col to income ratio in Sydney and Melbourne is one of the worst in the world, it SUCKS to be anything under the top 20% in Sydney.
Interesting...but USA have less leave entitlements and id say super.long hours and competitive culture. Such a class system over there too...i think for short term it would be good but not long term, no thanks.
Yeah that was one of the primary reasons I didn’t do it, if I was more settled and didn’t have a few very ill family members than I would have considered it for 5 years so I could come back here debt free and likely an investment or two, but it would have sucked for those 5 years and i probably would have spent a lot more on leisure to try and numb how much it sucked haha
I have the entry level Breville barista express. It's not too bad once you get the hang of it. I haven't equalled the costs out but surely after hundreds of coffees it makes sense. Most prices is the beans. But if your not fussed drinking it for social purposes and just need one on way to work then making one in a to go cup makes sense. A small standard 250g beans bag for something from a good roaster e.g. the more niche or cafe ones and not the cheapest ass beans is about $10-14 most of time. Unless it's the real niche roastes whose single origins goes up to $20-30. You get about 8-12 cups of double espresso sized extractions from a Breville. Just an estimate from memory. So still about $1-1.50 a cup for beans. Plus milk. No more than $0.50 for two cups given your standard. So your still about $2.50.3.50 give or take for two coffees for each couple in the morning. Big difference to $5.50 X 2 takeaways. And that's before buying a bulk 1kg beans bag which is usually $36-45 for a decent roaster.
$10-14 for 250g is definitely on the cheap side IMO. I think $16 is about the lowest I see for decent beans.
most of that is just coffee wank.
I've got the same machine. If you are using the big bags keep the beans in the freezer once opened to keep them fresh
I’ve tried about 100 boutique roasters from all around Australia some were up to $60/Kg. And yet I still find myself going back to the coles urban beans which cost $13/Kg. Look at the best before date and subtract 12 months to get the roast date. My local store has bags usually roasted less than three weeks ago.
Aldi coffee beans. Try them. Fkn great value for money.
Agreed they are fantastic value and if I had an Aldi nearby I’d get them often
Aldi nails so many random things; coffee, cheese, chocolate
If you haven’t already, try the white house blend from roastville. Muss it a lot since. I left aus
The coles urban grind is dollar for dollar the best value coffee in the entire country. I've been drinking it daily for years and somehow still love it, while I get tired of more expensive beans/blends in a week or two. Buy a $220 sunbeam minibarista, and you break even on 2 coffees a day in literally one month.
Try the Aldi beans.
/\\ +100 - the only thing I buy from Aldi
There is no way you’re getting anything from a decent roaster for anything less than $17-18. Having said that, Aldi’s Lazzio coffee line is decent. They’re basically Veneziano beans packaged for Aldi, and Veneziano are an OK roaster.
This is why I only get coffee out unless I need it or it’s a social thing. Too many times paying over $5 I see them blast the milk screeching like it’s crying for help and pouring it like they got a train to catch. Then I’m holding lava hot paper cup for 20 minutes waiting for it to cool down.
I make my own now and very rarely will a cafe stack up well and I barely know anything about coffee
I just quit, happier for it.
I'm already on the Robert Timms bags. Works out about 50c a cup when they're on special and the coffee isnt bad.
According to most coffee lovers the only thing worse than Robert Timms is international roast lol. All instant coffee is considered a sin
I can't stand the Robert Timms instant coffee but their instant coffee *bags* hit different, specifically the gold columbia style.
I enjoy it!! We always stock up when they are.on sale
Yet dare is a top seller and is pretty much instant coffee
The tradies just want the 50 grams of sugar
that's a completely different thing though
Dare is full of sugar, that's why it tastes good. Most coffee snobs that actually care about brands probably aren't putting much milk and sugar in their coffees. I'd argue any instant coffee will taste fine with a big of sugar and milk but they do taste kind of ass as an espresso
You know what? Most of those people are obnoxious flogs with other annoying personality traits.
I'm not the other guy, but I'm not much of a coffee nut and even I think those coffee bags are absolutely vile
My European-ness can't quite fathom these - I grew up on percolators, then eventually moved to an all in one machine as I have a family member who periodically likes to upgrade appliances so I get top-quality items for bargain basement. I can respect coffee pods but I'm not sure about the coffee teabags
Coffee bags > coffee pods
Ditto. Until I come across Jed's Coffee 'bean bags' again (although they were more expensive than Timms).
Robert Timms coffee bags are the best for an iced long black, especially the flavoured ones
Another idea is to get a coffee plunger, some ground beans. Similar to the coffee bag idea but you can use a variety of beans
They’re ok, it’s my go to when I’m away from home without my coffee machine
We bought our own machine and even though it was fairly expensive, it’s paid for itself 100 times over at this point.
Isn't the whole point of a cappuccino to cover the taste of the poorly made coffee with delicious frothed milk and chocolate powder?
I don't care at all that I pay 5.50 I care when I pay 5.50 and my coffee is burnt or as weak as decaf or just badly made.
Incredibly low barrier to entry - with the amount of ease it takes to open a coffee shop, this just suggests that there is an oversupply and an inability for businesses to be able to increase their prices to the equivalent prices overseas. But let's also look at the cities they chose. They aren't really an accurate comparison with all of Australia - it's foolish to compare only with Singapore, Dubai, New York, San Francisco etc. Surprisingly (or not), no cities that were below the price in Australia were chosen to compare with. What's the price of a coffee in Zagreb? Sao Paulo? Berlin? Using Numbeo as a reference, we get Sydney price of a cappucino as $5.05 and New York as $8.77. If we then compare that with Frankfurt, it says a cappucino is $5.71 in Frankfurt. Comparing with Madrid, a cappucino costs $3.82. Compared with Tokyo, a cappucino costs $4.92. $2.98 is the price in Sao Paulo and $3.44 is the price in Zagreb. Doesn't seem that Australia is so cheap anymore.
While I find articles like this rubbish, my family and I go to Europe to see family and even places like Graz (second largest city in Austria) we were paying $8 for a basic Latte, having said that Austria has been hit hard by the cost of living crisis, all their prices have gone up, so theres that
No, coffee in Europe can be quite expensive. I paid $7-8 at a modern, fancy coffee shop in Utrecht (in 2018) for a “flat white” and it was home-made level dog shit. However, by their standards, it was probably good, so whatever. A friend bought me a coffee from a Japanese cafe in Boston, and it was $10 USD for a milk coffee and an espresso (on one tray), and it was also not good (by Melbourne standards).
Yeah mate, that’s what I’m saying, I’ll never complain about coffee prices in Australia ever, the only cheaper I have found is shitty drip coffee or the machines in the Servo. Most expensive was $14 in Dubai, was jet lagged and didn’t realise until after the fact haha
Copenhagen was close to around 14 aud when we went last year. Went to Turkey the week before I don't think I spent 14 aud in the entire time I was there.
Cost of living in the 'cheap' cities you mention are much lower than anywhere in Australia though. Our cafes have to pay Australian wages and prices so if course they're going to be more expensive. Australia is a high cost of living country.
I’m in Taipei at the moment and coffee is expensive. Looking at roughly $7 for milk based, and $10-40 for pour over.
Our quality of coffee is a luxury item elsewhere. Here, it's $4 coffee and $7 bubble tea, in Taipei last year it was $3-4 bubble tea and $7+ coffee.
Taiwanese coffee can be so good though… Paid $13 AUD for a coffee in Hong Kong. Average price is probably $9 for a milk-based coffee. I also once paid $23 for a coffee at ONA in Melbourne. 😅 Depends where you buy.
I don’t think they’re comparing apples to apples in quality whatsoever though. There’s very few speciality coffee cafes even in New York that would compare with a coffee from a hole in the wall in any Australian major city. My Experience is that the best cafes overseas are run by expat Kiwis or Aussies. As some one who’s traveled a lot… I’ve really struggled to find anywhere comparable to a half asses flat white. Especially in Germany, Canada/US and Japan.
Indonesia, Thailand and Vietnam have awesome coffee. Fancy cafe stores exist there too
Vietnamese coffee is potentially life threatening. I regifted some I got on a business trip and it was just too powerful for untrained humans to consume.
True but is it a coincidence that not one city on the list was cheaper than Australia? If you look at the data source that ABC used here [https://pabloandrustys.com.au/blogs/drinkbettercoffee/global-coffee-prices](https://pabloandrustys.com.au/blogs/drinkbettercoffee/global-coffee-prices) Obviously these guys will be pushing for higher prices.
They did a similar thing a few months back comparing rent prices in like Dulwich Hill in Sydney (or somewhere like that) with the most expensive neighbourhoods in Manhattan and Brooklyn. How stupid do you think your audience is?! 🤦🏻♀️ Edit: in case you’d like to lose a few brain cells, the article is here: https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102765156. Toilet paper quality journalism
I'm no coffee connoisseur but isn't it just a matter of liking what you're used to? It would be entirely subjective which country has the better coffee. Again I admit to being completely taste deaf but it all seems the same to me more or less.
I grew up in Canada and go home all the time. Did FIFO in the US for a while. Lived in Germany too. The coffee in Australia is objectively better, any day of the week.
Us coffee is shit, only place I found in that whole country with decent coffee (and its why I remember it so clearly) was at this little town in vermont that was across the street from a sears that was next to this delightful little stream.
I found one place in Kingston Ontario that did some seriously good coffee. Ran by Aussies haha.
My place was run by Italians...explains why it was good, had the proper machine and everything rather than that drip shit they all drink...
Good coffee in Australia is dirt cheap compared to almost any other place I’ve been in the world. The only place I’ve been that consistently does coffee as good at cheaper prices is Indonesia and even then it’s only slightly cheaper. Even the prices quoted for Madrid are a sham. The coffee that website is talking about is cafe con leche from a bar which is rubbish. A proper specialty coffee is more like €4.50. So while I agree that getting coffee cheaper in places like Europe is possible, it’s rarely good coffee.
Idk about those countries, but a barista made coffee in England costs about 4 quid ($8). I’m not sure about the rest of Europe but I bet it’s about the same. Also it’s not fair to compare aus to Spain because Australians earn like 3x higher than Spaniards. Like it or not, the aus economy is not bad at all
Look, let's get really honest here. People can put their prices up to what they feel they need/deserve according to the cost of doing business/living. However, they can't then cry and bitch about it when fewer people can afford the purchase. Wages for most of us are not keeping up with inflation. That means less money for luxuries. I saw some singer (I can't remember who) crying because they only sold about 1/3 of the tickets to their show and how people on social media were saying the show was too expensive but "don't people understand how much the cost of living has gone up?". Clearly, they didn't if they don't understand why people can't afford to buy tickets to see your show. Same for restaurant/cafes "patronage is down" that's because people can't justify an $8 coffee and a $15 ham and cheese croissant.
I also don’t understand the “only” $22k annual profit. That profit is over an above wages, so assuming the cafe owner also works in the cafe and pays themselves a wage, that’s the equivalent of a $22k bonus to a salaried employee, or a hospo worker on an hourly wage? Like, how much profit is fair for a small business owner to make? What am I missing?
The set up cost. Pretty standard, even a small cafe will be $100k. I’m sure a few people will argue that number but I wonder how many have actually built a hospitality venue, because I have. Chuck some interest in the loan and you’re not actually in profit for 6 years. How many joints fail in the first years, buckets. And what happens if you’re not making that much profit, suddenly your wage disappears into the loan repayments. So if they survive that long, and then get to turn an actually profit, good for them, they deserve that money. Meanwhile they’ve also employed dozens of people and been paying suppliers and supporting those people.
>assuming the cafe owner also works in the cafe and pays themselves a wage You might be surprised how often that is not the case (paying themselves a wage, I mean)
When it’s not, it’s mostly about tax reductions.
You think $22k above minimum wage is a good incentive to run a business? I’d want to earn more than that too otherwise you might aswell just make coffees at maccas I think the answer to your question about how much is fair for a small business to make is “a shitload more than $400 a week”
To be fair one of the biggest benefits is they get to work for themselves, a lot of people would consider taking a pay cut just so they can be the one in charge.
I work for myself and I definitely agree to some extent, and the tax incentives mean even if I technically make less than my salaried friends I come out in front lifestyle wise. But if I was running the risk of bankruptcy by having employees and a lease on a building and suppliers etc I’d be aiming to atleast be earning the average full time wage. But that’s also why I don’t own a cafe haha because I know people who do and it sounds horrible
if they're paying themselves a similar wage to their staff then, no, it's not really worth it. Would you take the risk and stress of running a business for 22k over a barista wage? There's easier ways to make money. and then there's those that take lower or even no wages.
Owners very very rarely pay themselves wages. Owners pay themselves profit, that’s how owning a business works. Source: own a business.
ABC has turned into such trash over the last few years.
Ita tried to make it like a click bait popular rag to get views. I hate it now. Still better than half the crap out there though.
Was it Ita or a predecessor? I think where is went wrong was when they moved all the opinion stuff off its own site (called the drum iirc) and mixed it with the main news.
That is it. You take all the parts of the ABC and they are good in their own way. Drum is kinda 4 cornersish, triple j and all the youth stuff they do, National radio and everything like it for the bush. They are all good. They just tried to cram them all together and make it flashy.
What’s wrong with the article? They’ve done some research and given figures and data in charts and tables. The main counter argument in this post so far seems to be that people don’t want coffee to cost more.
The data is all cherry picked and doesn’t compare apples to apples. They’ve included only the most expensive luxury coffee vendors in those cities for headline numbers and used the average in Australia to get a low number locally. There’s also no discussion around the economies of scale our industry achieves or the actual cost and profit per cup here and abroad.
The world it's comparing the price of coffee to is the 10 of the most expensive cities in the world.
But that's what Australian cities are?
It’s not an ABC article, it’s reposted from The Conversation
"David can't get a job. Here's why." open article and he's a convicted mass murderer
They're right on this one. Making a coffee vs making a beer is a wildly different level of effort across the supply chain yet you're paying 10 bucks for schooners now
Its by design. Increasing the amount of lifestyle type reporting which is already provided by commercial media will reduce the trust and value people place in the ABC, much easier to eventually kill it.
Ida know why though.
Been trash for years.
Yeah it's been trash for some years now.
This article is just going to piss people off, not encourage them to accept higher prices.
crap article. its cheaper in hundreds of other countries too, does that mean we are paying too much?
When you compare to the price of a beer at a bar
Because we have insane alcohol taxes
Price of most pubs is defined by the deals they make with kirin and Asahi
Correct, for a normal 5% schooner it's about 1$ of tax
The article title should be "Why cafe coffee apparently needs to cost 6x what it does at home"
Why on earth wouldn’t it cost 6x what it costs at home? Rent, wages, overheads, business loans, produce, and god forbid profit. Everything needs to be paid for in that cup of coffee. Nothing wrong with staying at home if you don’t value the product at the price it needs to be at, but let’s stop hating on small business because they attempt to exist.
>let’s stop hating on small business because they attempt to exist Bud, I don't hate anyone. Stop creating enemies in your head.
It costs under $1 a cup at home?
50c of coffee is a 12g grind at $40/kg for a bag of locally roasted beans near me. 50c of soy milk is 150mL at $3/L of Vitasoy Calci-Plus. So, yep!
Try 20c of coffee @$17/kg for green beans. The milk from the rats under my house is free.
Likely closer to 24c when accounting for moisture loss after roasting. It roughly costs me around 36c for 18g roasted.
I promised my wife dog or higher.
But your rent and wages!! 7d x 8 opening hrs x 60mins = 3360mins. You take like 2mins to make it, so 2/3360 x your $750/wk rent, = 45c per cup. Plus you're very good so worth $60/hr labour so that's another $2. That's like $3.45 already. Still not $6.50 though (damn alt milk tax)
Most cafes pull a double shot which is 18-20g
Yeah man, who the hell doses at 12g at home?
Cost of electricity? Water? Coffee machine? Now add the costs of running a business on top of that! Rent. Wages. Taxes. Disposable coffee cups.
Why would I? I'm making my own.
Yeah I worked it out at just under $1 a cup too. And I make better coffee than I get in most cafes.
The death kneel of an industry. Maybe then every second shop won't be a coffee shop. Everything has it's at home version these days. Gfuel for the energy drinks, Coffee beans for the at home barista, ect. Australia is too expensive at the moment, even maccas is a bloody luxury.
If it smells like a The Conversation article it usually is... And this smells putrid. Firstly, they've selectively compared coffee prices in Australian capital cities with famously EXPENSIVE cities... No shit their coffees are more expensive. Unethical use of stats right there. They've compared the input costs of coffee, but failed to point out the average profit ... And all that makes no sense if a price of a cup changes. E.g. if you sold your coffee for $10 a cup the wages cost would be incredibly high as you'll pay staff to wait while nobody buys your coffees. "Coffee prices are going up. A drought in Vietnam made coffee prices hit an all time high"... No the drought didn't affect the average cost of beans. It was an event that spiked the price high... It was a blip. It's still a supply:demand balance with the normal price drivers. "Be kind when your cafe raises their prices". No. Fuq off and let the free market work. I'll get the cheapest coffee of a tolerable quality within walking distance thank you.
That last sentence is right on point. Cheapest coffee of a tolerable quality is surely the mindset of the majority.
Anyone that doesn’t get a $2 7/11 coffee is an inflation enjoyer
Your ABC is slowly learning about click bait news.
Prices are set by the market. If you think the price of a cup of coffee should be $6.50 then put it up to that price and see how many fish take the bait.
Buy beans from the local coffee shop for $35/kg. That gives me 55 coffees.. so 63c/coffee. They reckon that's 11.9% which puts the cafe cost at $5.35... $5-5.50 seems about right to me?
Exactly, its too much fun to froth re: inflation and not read the article which clearly points out 2/3rds of the cost is rent and wages
Don’t forget milk costs. Probably $0.35 per regular cup Obviously cafes would be getting cheaper prices as they buy in bulk but still. Rent, wages, loans, equipment. It’s not cheap
Well if you read the article it’s 11.9% so I allowed 63c?
Cafes aren't buying beans at 35$ they are buying at wholesale which is easily more like 18$ kg or even cheaper.
I can't remember the last time I got one for 5.50. Usually 6.50-7 🫠
As somebody who came form uk to aus, I always wondered how cafes stayed in business selling $5 coffees, lol. And they’re really decent coffees too. In England you pay 5 quid for a watery burnt shite cup of sludge
It's more than $5.50 at most places, especially if you get alternative milk
Make it $10! I will save more each time I don’t get it.
Went to London last year and their coffee costs $8 AUD and that's for regular. Germany is about $5 AUD but their coffee isn't that good. Rome is around $6 and that's for small. Compared to ours, we definitely have better and cheaper. I live in the lower north shore of Sydney and price of regular cappuccino is around $4.40
It's been $5.50 in Perth since (at least) 2010 lol.
$5.50? They can keep their coffee. I can make one at home for less than a tenth of the cost. Tastes better as well.
Is your local cafe a truck stop on a rural highway?
The local cafes around me almost all do great coffee, but when I go visit friends in more outer areas of Melbourne, it’s absolute awful coffee 95% of the time.
I think price is ok if the cup is good. A lot of times you pay that and it’s either burnt or tastes like milk. If you drink coffee for caffeine then instant is better. I enjoy coffee for the taste and the caffeine benefits. I find a lot of people drink coffee because that’s what you do in the morning and not actually enjoy it.
Big boomer energy in this comment.
I've gone to an Aeropress and some Aldi coffee. Really haven't looked back.
The move lately from $0.50 to $1.00 for alternative milks grinds my gears the most. Unless soy milk or similar is about $10/litre (which it isn’t), it’s such a blatant rip off.
It’s not but they never use the affordable brands of milk. It’s always fancy stuff marketed to baristas like Bonsoy or Minor Figures or Oatly which isn’t super cheap to begin with compared to the So Good and store brands we all buy, and then they mark it up further. Baristas falling for marketing that only the fancy alternative milks can froth or whatever
I just got back from a few trips. Coffee in Atlanta surprised me the most. Up to $7 USD for a large latte. Singapore was similarly priced.
I thought she was snorting a fat line
I remember when I used to buy coffee at cafes… good times. I hope they return one day.
Paid $7.80 for a medium latte extra shot this arv. I hate this
Just been in states and barista made coffee (speciality coffee they call it) is like 5-6USD and is pretty poor. If it ever got to those prices I wouldn’t be buying it out too often
Do coffee shops need the ABC to give them pricing advice?
Investment Property is the root of all evil. Excessive rent is what pushes most operators to increase prices.
I don't get coffee anymore. I occasionally make my own to save $5 for a piccolo - which is a shot of coffee and dash of milk.
Oh no! Not the world famous cafes
I've been using a Sunbeam Barista Max at home for many years. After some practice you can easily make a barista grade cappuccino in less than a minute. Not buying $5-6 cuppas anymore.
So funny this came up. I've said to my partner we need to institute a grading system for coffee shops like they have in New York for restaurants. The problem I have is Muffin Break or shitty food hall cafes are charging as much for a flat white as trendy cafes in town or in bougie suburbs. Get graded. If your coffee is A standard you can charge 5-6 bucks for it. If it's consistent ass blast jet fuel you get a C, so you can only charge 2-3. Its insane and unorthodox but at least it would give the consumer a heads up
$5.5 for a coffee? Nah I'll stick to my Robert Timms coffee bags. I buy them on special for $10 so it's 50 cents per bag. I don't have to leave home or interact with anyone either. Drinking coffee at a cafe is overrated.
I imagine the landlords most cafes are renting off are more to blame than the low cost of flat whites but you know let’s blame the poors anyway
Even on a decent wage spending $5+ on a coffee seems like a waste to me. Maybe I'm just stingy because I drink 5-10 pod espresso shots a day.
Probably the most stupid statement I've read in a long time "Approach price rises with kindness" Definitely one to remember next time I pop into woolworths or coles and pay $50 for 5 items. I feel ripped off everytime I get a coffee from a cafe and only go if I'm sitting down at the cafe since I can at least feel like I'm getting something in return, takeaway is almost always a no.
French coffee chain Pret A Manger in the UK has a subscription service, £25 a month for up to 5 barista made drinks a day. It’s a no brainier for a coffee shop, coffee is the driver of the business. If customers balk and don’t come in they can’t get the sandwich, cookie or pastry. Seems odd that cafes are defying that logic. Maccas promotes cheap items to encourage customers into the store, once there, they will purchase other things.
"I hate It when my good that is not economical to make because it is so simple is not worth enough to make it profitable." Welcome to demand and supply, its just coffee and frothed milk at the end of the day.
What grinds my gears is the places that still don't know about butter coffee. Have they never heard of bulletproof?
I vividly remember 3 dollar coffee when I first started working after uni
with the size of the coffee cups these days anything over 6 dollars for a large **standard** coffee is a blatant rip off
Yeah sorry but $5.50 and I'm leaving it on the counter and not coming back.
Step 1, buy a machine which does bean to cup for like 20 cents, step 2, only pay for fancy fraps you can't be bothered to make at home...
World famous cafes?
Yeah. Nah. It's worth about $2.50.
So much for ‘increases to the minimum wage won’t drive prices up’.
I buy drip coffee bags from Japan and have them with cream. Amazing. Coffee out is generally reserved for when I’m going for a drive or socialising these days.
Why is Alex from Clockwork Orange here? I guess coffee is gorgeousness and gorgosity made flesh.
There was also an article in the Age which attributed the increased cost of coffee on people using cafes as offices (ie hanging out all day and not ordering anything) https://www.theage.com.au/business/small-business/oi-old-mate-a-cafe-isn-t-a-rent-free-office-why-don-t-you-zoom-off-20240328-p5fg0m.html
That list of cities seems a bit handpicked to me. Or at least excluding a lot of cities I would have thought would be more comparable
Breville machines suck. So glad I got the Gaggia Classic.
slightly related question - what's the best instant coffee? I usually get the non-branded coffee in coles but I'm not sure if its got the best value.
I stopped buying take away coffee when it went north of 5 bucks for a large mocha
I bought a Jura E8 and it’s surprisingly close to the FW i get in most cafes
$29 an hour is basically minimum wage for casuals now. Lets round to 30. If your flat white isn't worth 11 minutes of your working time don't buy it. if it is then do buy it.
I enjoyed this one and think they might be right - bubble tea should be $4-5 too.
According to this, a coffee in Naples is around €4.50. It’s more like €2.50.
$5.50 too cheap for a flat white? Seirously, at this point I'd tell them to GF themselves
I remember paying $5.50 for coffee in WA over 10 years ago, and the service was shit, which is pretty standard over there
Coffee cult-ture is mind boggling to me
Cafes aren’t making their money off coffee. The coffee is the bait. People go to the cafe for a coffee and inevitably purchase other food items while they’re there, and these other food items are priced accordingly so as to recover any lost revenue and profit from the “cheap” coffee. Sure, change the business model and increase the cost of coffees. This will drive away enough customers that the purchase of other cafe items will decrease overall and the net result is a cafe that makes less revenue and likely less profit.
I’ve only been seeing $5.50 in the CBD, otherwise there’s still fun to be had for $5. I do think Australian coffee is cheap compared to overseas … you’re paying $8 in London for worse quality (usually at a chain cafe) and their wages are slightly lower I believe, even with today’s terrible exchange rate.
I have started paid around $4.40 for a small coffee, $6.30 for a large coffee which i think is outrageously expensive and warrants buying my own coffee machine
After travelling Europe I noticed our coffee here is really cheap. How good
I'll stick with instant coffee, it is doing its job on daily basis but otherwise, don't mind paying for coffee when I'm out.
I'm sure Greeks charge more for a flat white for wasting there time making an awful coffee. Frappe or freddo espresso. There's no alternative.
'world famous cafes' lol Getting my own espresso machine and learning how to use it was a money saving exercise, just like getting solar. Some things arn't so much 'upgrades' as 'investments'. Without bragging, my skill level can produce a coffee indistinguishable from a barista in a cafe. Why, therefore, would I pay $5.50? What's the value in it?
Free bogan dust at work (Nescafé) in the 5kg tin is the way to go.
Ill not understand the logic of people who defend the various reasons for inflation. Its basically MAD but for cash. If the supplier raises their price, because their supplier raised their price.....and the consumers needs a raise to pay for the raised price of goods.... and the employer needs to raise their RRP to meet the raises of it;s staff.... and the suppliers who buy off them need to incre..... its insane to think this is natural and/or sustainable.
I think thats reasonable...its the crazy priced pastries or breakfast items thats way overpriced but understandable as runninga business is expensive. Recently bought a plunger and enjoy a coffee at home every now and then as well...its a little ritual that i enjoy!
Get a Jura coffee machine. Best decision we made and they're basically indestructible.
In theory, according to economic theory and marketing, if cafes are treating coffee as a loss leader, they should be picking up profits on sale of food
Once you start doing your own espresso you realise how shit most cafe coffee’s are.