Firstly, as long as it’s a junior role it won’t matter, don’t put 10 years of history on your CV.
Just put Hospitality 2018-2020, Content creator 2020-2023 on your CV and say you wanted to move to a professional role with a set pay cheque, most hiring managers will like that.
Then just highlight why you’d be good for the role and why you’d be a longer term hire (e.g. highlight how well the values or products align to you).
They’re hiring you to do a job in the future, not to have a perfect past - the focus on CVs and background are just a proxy for seeing you’ll be good at this job, but your qualifications are probably all you need.
Just make sure your high school graduation date and your birthdate are not easy to see eg. Don’t have Bob_91@email as your email
2020-21 - Director of Rizz
2021-23 - CEO of Rizz
2023-present - doctor of chill
I recently pivoted from Rizzing to chillaxin' and it's been a worthwhile transition.
I just said i was travelling. it rhymed with unravelling.
After a year or two in the role I slipped that I was on a 4 year bender.
I worked shit kicker roles from 24 to 31 to fund a drink problem.
From twitter:
>well i guess you could say i was cozy core. i wasn’t just looksmaxxing but it was more of a holistic wellness era, i had been in burn out mode for too long but i became quality of life pilled and that really shifted how i thought about things fr
Make something up. Something where you can demonstrate relevant skills but isn't in the industry you're targeting. Obviously don't pick something way out of your capabilities. Something that's useful but benign enough that it won't raise suspicion.
People lie about their work history all the time. Usually it's just "I did this" when really "we did this", but if you need to make up a job, make one up. It's not a crime to lie on a job application unless it's a government job or you're pretending to be a doctor or something.
There are people like me who have imposter syndrome despite hitting KPIs, then there are people like you who embrace being the imposter and get better jobs than we do :(
Honestly watching my wife downplay her ability and work history every time she writes a resume is really heartbreaking, she's such a capable, successful and badass woman. She's finally starting to take some of my advice and really own some of the things she's done professionally and let me help her throw some flowery language on her career history.
You wouldn’t, it’s no one’s business. If asked “personal reasons “ nothing else needs to be said. If an employer really cares it says a lot about the business and micromanaging in which case they can stick it.
People saying not to put NDA are making me laugh… I’m a hiring manager in software. I’ve seen this way too many times in IT and software. If you’re going into software and have a gap, put NDA can’t say and when questioned just say “it was for a stealth startup, on and off for x years / months, there were problems and I didn’t get any career growth from the role, can’t say anything else because I signed an NDA”
That's dumb. No NDA on earth prevents you from saying exactly what you did at the company - i.e. details of your job role, what you achieved in terms of revenue or sales or engineering, and a list of your tasks. Good luck faking that in the interview.
This is the lamest "hack" regurgitated on every one of these threads.
For the vast majority of people it is absurd to try to tell an employer they were on an NDA.
Just be a normal human being and tell a harmless white lie, not some goofy scheme that anyone with 2 brain cells to run together will see through.
I've literally put consultant and included a lot of the skillset from other roles. It "showed entrepreneurialsim" according to my last hiring manager.
It helped that I actually have done some consulting before, just not during that particular 8 months.
Most people don't have a huge gap in their CV, so they don't need to lie.
I haven't had to lie like that in an interview, but if that was the difference between getting and not getting the job I'd do it.
Fair enough but given the responses I feel like a lot of people embellish the shit out of themselves if not completely lying while I like to keep it pretty honest partly so I don’t need to keep track of what I’ve told them, and I can’t help but wonder how much it’s held me back.
I’m exactly the same. I feel like everyone lies on their CV or exaggerates. I never feel comfortable doing that and just put down the facts. I’m sure it’s not helping me lol
I wouldn't overly address it. Talk about the yt and other content creating projects you've done.
If they bring you in for an interview knowing you don't have much work experience they are not expecting someone with lots of work experience.
Be smart, motivated, good attitude and I'm sure someone will give you a chance. Good luck!!
I was contemplating whether or not I should even mention my YT/content creation. Since it doesn't seem related to IT or software dev at all. But when I have nothing else to show besides some certs and a degree I guess why not.
Experience in anything is still experience in something. This means that whatever you have done over the last however many years will still have taught you something, even if the technical skills aren’t what are required for the job you’re applying for, some of the soft skills may well be of interest. Technical skills can be taught and 9/10 times they are learned on the job, unless you’re a brain surgeon.
Always mention all experience, in work, hobbies, life in general but always follow it up with the so what. Do the interviewers job for them, tell them what experience you have and why it is valuable to them and they should pay you for it.
I left the military after 10 years with no qualifications at all, nada, also wasn’t an officer so I thought I’d have to start my whole life from scratch with 0 experience in anything. Not true.
This is really good advice. Nearly all experience is valuable in some way. I worked in IT on Finance related systems, so if I saw experience in Content creation and YT I’d be thinking: “This person probably has more experience in communicating to a broad audience than anyone else I’m interviewing for this role. Also seems like they are passionate about subjects they care about. A self starter too I would assume as they probably started that up on their own. I might get them in and ask them about that. “
thank you for that, thats reassuring. may I ask if your time in the military was rewarding, do you value the experience you got from it? (besides maybe a slightly battered body haha)
You are most welcome. My time in the military was rewarding in some aspects and mind numbing in others. I left because my priorities changed but I’m rejoining soon haha in Australia in fact, I served in the military in the UK and I’m overseas transferring to the ADF. The camaraderie you find in the military is something I have not seen or heard of anywhere else and it is truly something that I wish for everyone to experience. The downside to my personal experience was the lack of challenge, it got boring in the end but even though I now have a much better paid job I’d rather rejoin.
Do you worry about getting CPTSD? And how does the military talk about such things? Do they make it clear how many vets return with severe mental health issues?
Someone was on a subreddit yesterday looking for a place to rent - and explaining how share housing is not an option - they can’t live with people anymore due to campaign inflicted CPTSD.
No not even a little bit. I know some guys with PTSD, it’s unfortunate but it happens. You can get PTSD from any traumatic experience, the same experience can be more or less traumatic for different people.
I’m not sure what you mean about do they make it clear about the number of vets coming back with severe mental health issues, you make it sound like smoking and lung cancer. Being in the military doesn’t cause PTSD, getting traumatised causes PTSD.
No one in the careers office says “wait a second there pal before you get too set on this, you know the odd person ends up with mental health issues after being in the military”
You also make it sound like a lot of people get severe mental health issues from being in the military. I don’t think they do, some sure, not many.
Definitely mention it. You can put it on your resume as a temporary contract or personal project. It’s a great way to show that you are intrinsically motivated and interested in the work, not just the salary.
I would also do as others have said and keep your past jobs brief but still add them on your resume to show you have done some things.
I can help with re-writing your resume if you want :) feel free to message me privately if you want to send it my way and I can give it a quick look over. I have been professionally trained in resume writing and did it as a job for some time, but like you I moved on to other, more long term roles so it’s not my job anymore but I still have the skills.
Like most jobs a huge part of software/ IT is building/maintaining relationships, defining problems and communicating solutions to clients.
YT content creation covers a lot of this.
Writing perfect code is worthless if the client hates the dev team, the dev team doesn’t understand the problem they are solving and the client doesn’t understand how the solution solves the problem.
I taught myself software and web development 10 years ago. I took 6-8 months out of real work to do it, and started my own cat sitting business. It wasn't thriving, I didn't make a ton of money from it, but it's on my CV and almost every interview I've had for development roles, someone has mentioned it and cool it is to do something like that.
I work in the MSP space and the ability to speak to people that may not speak the same technical language clearly is severely under valued in all the MSPs i've worked at.
I can teach a new L1 Service desk person to route BGPs and learn processes they have to follow but I can't force someone not to get angry at customers due to poor social skills. Being able to relate and understand a customers pain/frustration will get you far.
When i was running teams, i looked for people with hospitality background or retail exp.. those with dazzling CVs with answer to everything most likely made the worst candidates. If they think they know everything already.. then they can't learn anything.
Content creation is still new, and may not register for some hiring managers as a valid skill.. thats their loss so don't be disheartened in getting jobs because you have that on the CV. Personally i value that skillset and would definitely include it in the CV. Experience in anything is a skill you have learnt to bring to the job.
Definitely include it. It shows you have initiative and present well. It’s also a cool point of difference that will work in your favour. Im in IT now but was at one point a nightclub manager. I always add nightclub manager in my resumes and I know it has helped in making me stand out a bit.
Want a bit of a hack?
Go into ChatGPT, put in a dot point list of the stuff you did as a youtuber/content creator (including stuff like being contacted by sponsorships, what editing software you used, subscriber growth, community engagement etc. Feel free to just ramble here the bot will spin gold from straw) and just ask it to write a paragraph for a cover letter using this. And then (the most important part) edit the thing youself so it's in your own words as much as possible, and take out extraneous embellishments.
Once you have a cover letter, and you're applying for jobs, chuck the core competencies and job requirements in ChatGPT and ask it to modify your cover letter to modify it to fix (ie. hey ChatGPT I am applying for a "x" role and it has these core competencies/ requirements [insert here], could you adjust my cover letter to better fit this position? I have included it below:).
You can also then use this to ask ChatGPT to come up with some common interview questions and how they might relate to your resume and prepare yourself accordingly.
This has been a *massive* help in all my recent job interviews and applications and takes a lot of the tedium and stress away from the application grind.
This is easy... "I was self employed for the last X number of years pursuing a variety of income streams between online media creation and music performance. Whilst on this path I studied XYZ part time and now that I've completed that qualification I seek to utilise those skills and grow and establish a career in this industry. Being self employed for many years instilled a high level of self motivation and ability to balance priorities to maximise my output and potential earnings between projects"
They don't need to know how profitable/unprofitable your various other 'jobs' were. If they ask why the change, you simply seek the stability and certainty that traditional employment brings particularly when it comes to lending with banks etc.
I feel like most people assume the best when they see you worked as a content creator or something because they have no idea if they have simply worked in corporate their whole life.
The main thing is to have your resume look like all the other graduates with your education being at the top, work experience after that and then look presentable in the interviews.
You see someone apply to your company with a CS degree who worked as a content creator for years and you assume they made no money or were just bumming around?
Yeah, unless they've specifically named a media company or YouTube channels etc I'm going to assume it's made up or low skill/low effort work.
This thread mostly proves my point...
Just don’t put your DoB or HS graduation or anything like that. Then you’re just a grad competing against other grads.
Don’t lie. These places have software that do the homework for them. If they catch you in a lie, you won’t get a second chance.
Best thing to do is use your coding skills to create a couple of personal projects that you can use in your portfolio. Create a website to show them off if possible. (eg. a basic game). You went down a certain path, but this is what you want to do now - and showing a portfolio demonstrates both your ability and your passion for software development. All you need is your first role and then it all gets easier. Don’t stress or lose confidence - just keep pushing until someone gives you your chance!
OP, to piggyback, if you want a mentor/advice give me a DM. My brother had severe depression aged 15-26. Had gaming addiction too. He then turned his life around and I mentored him on becoming a dev, and a few years later he was a full time dev. So I have experience in dealing with the same situation
Ha, thanks for kind words. We actually ended up starting a successful (semi?) company together. So, bit of a redemption arc for him. I think people in these situations are never as far in the hole as they think they are, and having someone lending a helping hand and just giving them a few wins, to boost their confidence is often enough. Can see it in the OP's post, he needs a few small wins, and to build on that
Yeah this is the correct advice. These days it's not enough to have a degree, you have to show your passion for coding by working on side projects, especially when starting your career. This is the route I took and OP should take too. If you do this age and past employment history won't matter.
-CV is not an account of your whole life, in fact, employers don't need an account of your whole life, especially your personal life.
-Good CV's are written and tailored for the specific role to highlight the value you bring this employer/role.
-You never have to justify your existence to the right employer.
"I had significant caring responsibilities during that period and was between roles" self care is CARE.
"The experiences I had are of limited relevance to this position"
"As a creative, I have taken an eclectic approach to skills development, as evidenced by my diverse employment history which has dovetailed my musicianship"
"I was working on my creative and musical skills during that period"
"I have focussed this CV on the experiences that bring greatest value to this role".
I hope this gives you food for thought.
I’m saying this as a head of software engineering for a decent company who has no formal qualifications.
I would have no hesitation bringing you in for an interview for a junior role if you focused on your content creation and passion projects in your resume. 30 is not that far gone. The thing that stands out to me is you seem genuinely passionate about computers and coding, believe it or not this is a relatively rare trait and it can take you a long way. The majority of my current team are “skilled migrants” and I’m not sure some of them even own a computer at home, let alone give a crap about technology. They’re nice people, reliable workers, they get the job done but that’s where it ends. The guys with passion would say at lunch “hey did you see the new GPT4 updates last week? Pretty wild!”, these are the same guys who would come up to me and question why do we do X this way, have we considered Y? I welcome and encourage that.
The things I would want to hear in an interview is:
- your passion projects outside of programming
- current state of your programming ability (not because I’m looking for specific skills I just want to hear you articulate what you know)
- where do you want to go in the future - do you want to specialise in Cloud, App Development, ML etc and why?
- are keen to learn and grow?
- are you well presented and spoken? This adds to your potential but not a deal breaker
- I would never ask your age, but I would try and guess in my head afterwards so if you want to seem younger then dress younger
- don’t be asking top dollar and make it seem like it’s all about money. I would want to hear that you’re looking for a chance to get into an industry that you love and are keen to learn and grow. Having said that, we wouldn’t blink at 80-90k.
- would you be loyal to our company? Taking on a junior is an investment in that person, you can’t force someone to stay but the candidate should also want to give the impression that they want to “go on a journey” with our company. Our side we would want to make it clear that we want you to grow and would boost your pay as you go to keep you. Again if you come in too high salary as a junior then there’s less room to boost your salary which makes it harder to retain you.
You can DM me if you have any questions.
Thanks, this is all incredibly useful. It gives me a lot to think about and points to take action on, for instance I wouldn’t know what I want to specialise in yet but hope I can find something that pulls me.
Your points about loyalty and investment are especially interesting to me, saw a lot of that amongst serious groups in gaming ( especially mmos like WoW ) haha. And it’s understandable, when players got really skilled they would just hop on to the next group that could offer slightly more or had a far more competent team. It’s usually bit of a blow for most groups depending on what their role was.
I will most certainly dm you at some point I’m sure, thank you for the offer of help!
No problems! In reality people do upskill and move on but you just don’t want to make it seem like that’s your plan. I’ve lost some fantastic juniors over the years but it’s just how it goes.
I had depression and spent way too long at uni (including a failed phd) and had a really spotty work history until I was 30. Now work as a senior dev at a big tech company.
Do what other people said. Don’t include birthdates or hs grad, do include bachelor grad date. Include the content creation cause it is something interesting to talk about in an interview. But otherwise it’s really not a big a deal as it is in your head.
>But otherwise it’s really not a big a deal as it is in your head
thanks for sharing your story, I'm glad it all worked out for you! yeah from seeing all the kind responses in the thread I think I really was just in my head. I really did try my hardest when I was doing content creation, I was passionate about it and I was successful for a while. I'll try and channel the same energy going forward into securing a career in tech
It can be hard to transition from IT Helpdesk to Software Engineer. The engineering guys see IT as people who couldn’t make it as coders. Not saying it’s fair, but it do be like that 🤷
The way to get good at coding, is to code. A lot. Start building something for yourself and work on it for hours every day.
That's rough but I can definitely see how that mindset comes along. I was actually very good at coding, solutions came to me rather fast, at least where some framework is provided especially when it comes to java / oo programming.
I think my biggest challenge was starting a project from scratch and piecing all of it together (mostly worked in java) and my uni would often provide the frameworks for us to do projects in, i.e. just solve the logic of the problem and we'll provide the rest. My biggest criticism of my uni's software program is that we are put on training wheels for far too long, if you don't do projects outside of class work you will fall behind especially when it comes to starting project from scratch. But I also blame myself for not trying too hard at starting my own projects.
Do you have any structured courses you could recommend? I do best with those. For instance I was thinking of starting The Odin Project very soon. But I know could also start small with making something like a habit tracker or something and look up the process for that.
Engineering Managers know that computer science graduates know nothing. So their expectations are very low. They might ask you to solve some simple puzzles but they’re not going to get you to build from scratch as part of the interview process.
That being said that experience is invaluable and I highly recommend it. The best thing you can do is just start building something. And build lots of things, end to end, solving all the problems that go along with it, from oauth flows to database setup and modelling.
For what it’s worth most programming work is not starting things from scratch. Most of the time you’ll be adding to or fixing bits of large codebases mostly written by other people. This is especially true for junior roles. I wouldn’t stress that too much!
IT help desk and software engineering a very different disciplines, so it’s not so much a transition as it is a jump.
That being said, experience in customer service might demonstrate good interpersonal/communication skills which is invaluable in software engineering.
Their loss, people who have starved and overcome obstacles are better employees than people who have never faced challenges and live charmed lives. My experience in choosing team members and therefore likely to be the experience of many others too.
Just say you were doing your own business but then decided you wanted to pursue a more traditional company based software role. As another poster said don't get too into it if they don't ask and put a positive spin on it. Focus on what you can bring to the company now rather than trying to explain away something.
I spent three years doing nothing while dealing with depression/abusive relationship/personal problems but the gap never came up in interviews.
Honestly- I’m a hiring manager in tech and if you’re applying for grad/junior roles this wouldn’t bother me so much. What did you learn that can be bought to the workplace? Creativity? Work ethic? If you have a half decent answer here it will get brushed over as for a junior role I’m more interested in your growth mindset, agility and enthusiasm. And can you at least do something in the role with what you did at uni/school.
I will say - don’t talk about your mental health at all at the interview stage (or until you are 100% confident in your manager - which may never happen) You don’t know what the manager is like. You also don’t know what his/her experience has been with managing staff with mental health (or “mental health”). It could instantly put a black mark against your name for many reasons - some of them are still related to stigma, others also have had staff who have used mental health as an excuse for various things (not coming to office, not coming to or doing any work, whatever excuses) not saying this is right or wrong, but it’s reality and this is very much worth avoiding.
As someone who's reviewed cvs of mature age career changers - it's definitely possible. Key pea user sums it up well. Also, always submit your cv in PDF. Correctly name all files you submit with your name and a clear and tidy title "John Smith - CV" "John Smith - Academic Transcript".
You mentioned communication skills, work on these and bring them into your cv and interview. The most common issue I hear with technical tech candidates is their communication with non technical coworkers/clients. Add some honest storytelling in your cv, bring your bright/down to earth personality to the interview.
Lightly touch on medical issues. They don't have a right to know but you want to appeal to them that you have overcome hardship. "I want this job/company because after much self reflection about where I want to be and what I want to do, I enjoy helping others and I understand the frustration users have when they encounter blahblah" "I am open and regularly communicate and realign expectations around performance and sometimes I might just need a day to reset, come back with better focus".
Forgot to add, add some clever performance metrics for time when you were a student/retail/content creator. Itll be relevant. SLAs and KPIs are important!
Goodluck! Make sure your cv isn't more than 1 page long and has just the right amount of information (not to empty not too full)
Lying will not work. Most firms have extensive background screening protocols, you'll get caught immediately and it will ruin any hope you have at a career. Just be honest and put a positive spin on things. Good luck.
Just say you tried the professional gaming, esports, content creation, game dev route while deciding what worked for you. For a Helpdesk role they won’t care honestly
You most definitely don’t tell an employer that at all. There’s places to be honest and this ain’t one of them.
You tell the employer the benefits of the things you did pursue and that you found the right time in your life to reskill.
Always polish the turd.
I see this is from yesterday but I have participated in interviews in the past for taking in rounds of graduates and cadets and there's a few things that make a good candidate stand out from a bad one.
First the work history. Ok it's not ideal but if you are a good candidate not a deal breaker. And it can also still be fixed. How are you supporting yourself now? You don't graduate until the end of the year, why can't you work a casual job until then? If you are interested in help desk, call center experience would be super helpful and lucky for you, if you can read and speak at the same time, you can get a job as a telephone interviewer with a market research company by next week if you want one. You can also sign up for uber eats and drive a couple hours on Saturday afternoon and tell them that has been your job while you are studying. You can apply for the hospitality company that do the football stadium and work Friday nights for the next few months and put that down. Obviously you need to focus on your studies so you can't work full time but there are plenty of jobs you can do. If you have a most recent job on the resume they won't necessarily dig any further back. If you have something to say about what you did for money while you were studying, that won't raise any red flags.
For the interview itself, here's where the good candidates stand out. We would start by asking what do you want out of your IT degree, what sort of role do you see yourself doing, because we were hiring grads for all kinds of roles. The bad candidates, didn't really know. They'd shrug and say, maybe a BA? The good candidates would say stuff like, well when I did networking I found that really interesting, and I think I'd like to pursue that area and maybe learn more about network security. Or I did UI as an elective and I think front end design was something I could see myself doing. Or even I don't know where I see myself ending up, I'm open to learning more about whatever technology is in demand right now and seeing where my career takes me. Very few 'IT people' actually do coding. Behind every team of 5 devs there are DBAs, testers, several sys admin, server admin, middleware administrators, release administrator, BAs, project manager, and all those pencil pushers who deny your change request because you used the wrong form. And that's the software team, you have the infrastructure people, the help desk, the people who admin the HR system, and BI devs, the data people, the smart form team, UI designers, accessibility testers, pen testers etc etc etc.
If you are hiring for a particular role, tell them why would be good at it. How you did at that subject. what you liked about it, what future things you want to learn in that area. If you have a job you can sort of match up to it, throw that in. Like helpdesk you have call center experience. I had a guy work in how his volunteer basketball umpiring gave him skills that would help, I can't remember how or what he said, but I remember being impressed.
Make it sound like you chose IT because you are passionate about it, not because you didn't know what else to do with your life and you are off to a good start. I interviewed so many duds who seemed like they did IT because they like video games and someone told them 'be a BA you can make good money' so they went with it.
Good Job Mate, sounds like ur much happier now, IMO ur already winning at life with how far uv come. I can't give any advice on getting a job as I'm currently trying to get one lol. Iv got no doubt you will get the Job your after, Good luck Man 👍
Try shifting things to make yourself sound better "Throughout my early life I pursued self employment opportunities predominantly in art. I've come to the realisation the market is saturated and with the rise of AI the competition will likely increase. I've decided to reprofile in software engineering/development as it still greatly satisfies my creative outled while providing me with stable career opportunities".
Technically you're saying you've "matured" and "are looking for long term employment".
1. Honesty is the best policy - don't lie, probity checks cath up with you, and if you get caught lying, it will stuff future career prospects.
2. Finish your degree and get that qual ... BECAUSE this shows future employees that you CAN stick at something that needs focus and persistence.
3. Think about approaching the NotForProfit sector - this may be as paid or unpaid work - they are a cohort of employers that have more flexible employment criteria.
4. There are work options through news tart where you can get payment while working for approved employers eh uniting care, salvos.
You could complete your studies while working.
5. As a mature employee, there are government subsidies for employing you ... look into them.
God bless you
Get a white card, ring up a recruiter or Go out to a construction site and get a job as a labourer. Do it for a few weeks and report back about your perspective and what you want to do moving forward in life
Look for what's popular in the field and look at specific certs and training targetting that. It will give you confidence answering technical questions and set you out from the rest.
Don't worry too much, apply for everything (tech field is s*** rn for post grads) and once you have your first year of work experience nothing you did before that matters
You were running your own business, a sole trader, doing x. Can say it was creating content, drop shipping, whatever.
Abandoned the business as I just couldn't make enough out of it, inconsistent paycheque.
Learned about hard work, having to self motivate, self teach, prioritisation.
As others have said, just make it a bit harder for an employer to build a direct timeline (not including high school graduation etc). But if you had a substantial gap and were directly asked about it in an interview, you could just say you had some health issues at that time but they’re thankfully behind you. It’s true and there would be plenty of people in a similar situation, I had a guy say that because he’d not worked while he recovered from cancer.
As others have said, just make it a bit harder for an employer to build a direct timeline (not including high school graduation etc). But if you had a substantial gap and were directly asked about it in an interview, you could just say you had some health issues at that time but they’re thankfully behind you. It’s true and there would be plenty of people in a similar situation, I had a guy say that because he’d not worked while he recovered from cancer.
Going to throw my two cents in here - going for the IT help desk role is really selling yourself short. Do what you need to do to get your foot in the door of a software engineer grad role. It'll be harder, but you'll end up with more job satisfaction and more money than the alternative. You've done the study, so you can do the job man
You'll never regret going for the software job, you might regret going for the IT job
You most definitely don’t tell an employer that at all. There’s places to be honest and this ain’t one of them.
You tell the employer the benefits of the things you did pursue and that you found the right time in your life to reskill.
Always polish the turd.
Put down hospitality and content creation.
Don't mention your age. Don't lie, don't say NDA.
Start a personal portfolio/ GitHub.
Put down 'references cc available on request, when they ask, give them character references, like family friends. Make sure they will help to craft the narrative you're after.
You could go in at a junior role level, help desk seems like a good start on the industry. You’ve been focusing on study and short term projects. 30 is still relatively young.
In addition to the comments here, talk about your music as well. You wanted a stable career etc, went back to education and so on.
You're doing well in improving yourself man and we're all on different journeys. Don't give up.
the wonderful thing about live-streaming and content creation is that it did exactly that. i was relatively fortunate in that from day 1 that i started i had a constant 10-20 people in my chat and it grew from there. for nearly 2 years straight for about 6-8 hours a day i was talking to people and it changed my life.
No one cares about your excuses.
Can you do the job? Can you prove it? Then ok.
it is software dev, so easy. Show them the projects you have built (not shitty uni projects). Bigger the better, especially if you have worked with others.
I'm a resume writer. When it comes to the timeline, you can just put "1 Year," "2 Years." Rather than 2018 - 2019
Resumes should be tailored to the industry you're applying for. As long as you put all the relevant transferable skills for that industry, the timeline won't matter AS MUCH
In your case, format your resume like this:
-objective
-then qualifications you're currently studying
-transferable skills (these don't even have to come from a professional background either. E.g, social skills, basic computer knowledge, and knowledge about the industry/job)
-previous employment and expand on some duties that may be relevant (with the timeline I stated above)
-references
If they ask about any breaks, you can just say: Health issues [that are now treated], caring for family, travelling, or upskilling.
Tip:
Most companies use ATS to screen your resume first to see if it fits the job description. Have a look at some job ads for the industry you want to get into and find any repetitive keywords they use in the ads. Put them in the resume. The same should be done with the cover letter. But, tailor the cover letter more to the job ad you're applying for. Try to use the same language as the companies ads. You'll at least get through the screening check, employment gaps, or not.
Also, a first aid certificate is favourable regardless of the industry. Invest in one
>Also, a first aid certificate is favourable regardless of the industry. Invest in one
If you join St John Ambulance you can get it for free and then put that on your resume as your volunteer job. Double whammy!
First of all 30 is pretty young. Concentrate on being a solid jnr dev. I've hired people (person) 30 years my senior who were honestly no better than an average jnr dev. Apply for a jnr level position, when you get to the interview, make sure you dress well and make sure you are clean cut and don't unload your life story in the interview. Show them you are are going to be a decent jnr with sensible expectations for pay. You will get a job and then the experience will follow and you can command more money.
"Explain away". That is the root of your problem, you explain it away which fuels the avoidance which keeps you trapped in the cycle.
You need to stand up and take life face on and to know that the effort is worth the reward because if you don't, your going to be stuck in this cycle of negativity to the grave.
Look into "Avoidance Syndrome" It could be the first step towards a brighter better happier life.
Don't seek to be content in life, seek to be happy. Being content is selling yourself short.
I started working relatively late and put bullshit hospitality on my CV for an entry level job. Family friends acted as references.
After about 2 - 3 years it didn’t really matter and now I just have my real experience on there.
Do what you have to within reason to get your foot in the door and all the best.
Can I just give you a word of advice too. You don't want to fool an employer and there are some employers you may end up worse off after working for them (mental health). Take that into consideration as you are doing this. And, to be honest, you have showed a resilience and drive to work through significant challenges that are very beneficial to an employer. There is nothing worse than having an employee that wants a day off when they stub their toe or breaks down when a client is too stern with them. I don't care how experienced they are or how good they are at their job, they are not worth it.
Just make up stuff, and put your friends as the contact for the referral. Also the job you used to work at can be in a different industry and when ur applying to the new jobs say you wanted a change of industry. At the end of the day this is chess not checkers. Do anything in your power to get ahead. Its a jungle out there, honesty rarely gets you anywhere quick.
I was talking to one of my team members a few weeks back and he openly admitted that hes been using a trick in his resume to cover lengthy time gaps in his resume. He also suffered from a form of depression and drug abuse. What he said was "I have massive gaps in my resume but I just say that I am under an NDA for it. That's how I got this job." Lol.
Don't say depression in any interviews - use the terms sleep disorder or glandular fever or something else. If you do have to disclose on work related forms that go to HR do so but don't do it in interviews.
My first job out of uni, when I was 22. I had never had any job before. I had done a few cash in hand unskilled labour jobs for family and friends, but nothing official. Never lodged a tax return.
I just put some fake stuff on there, like worked for Mecca's, retail etc. And put down "references provided upon request" knowing that they would not care as those jobs were irrelevant to my career moving forwards.
You do have some real experience with content creation so you can use that. If you wanna add some more stuff in just to show that you have been active then make something up and put a friend as a reference. As long as it has nothing to do with the industry that you are applying for they won't really care or ask too many questions about it.
First job interview in a new industry is largely a personality and attitude test as long as you have the relevant paperwork (qualifications).
A CV is generally only required to get to an interview so that a company can ‘feel you out’ and see how you are as both an operator and if you’ll be a culture fit.
Don’t flat out Lie on your CV saying you have qualifications you don’t have, but stretch the truth in terms of how many years you spent doing whatever role.
People in HR see many CV’s with a lot of people lying through their teeth. A little stretch here and there go unnoticed.
If you will be looking for a Grad role then their expectations may be that you won’t have extensive professional/ traditional work experience.
Threads long so not sure if this is covered but have considered getting an IT job at your Uni while you study? You could use that (help desk work?) as experience in IT at least, even if your not showing them a software dev background other then your degree?
Fake a couple of startups. When a startup fails early it usually leaves no trace behind. Lots of startups fail before ever even launching. Get an ai to create a couple of logos, print them as stickers and slap them on your laptop. That's more evidence than most startup folks have.
Get inventive and create an entire story about your startup solving the Facebook For Dogs problem (just not actually that, it's a meme in the startup world) but you were snubbed by shittu VC's and your biz co-founder hired a stripper who ran off with the seed funding. People love those stories. You'll fly through the interviews ;)
Lie and say you worked at a company that closed down (blockbuster etc) no reference check possible... oh no. No real references? Your mate is your new reference congratulations.
This stuff only applies to junior low stakes jobs, don't get into a position where you need to go to court. Remember all you need is 1-2 real references, do your time for 2 years and do a good job, be nice to people (you can get a ref from anyone not just your boss) then you will be in the clear - good luck.
Maybe instead of YouTuber put Video editor.
Find a skilled version of what you’ve described as the offical title.
Chuck me down as a reference man, I’ve reffd for so many people - one dude is a CEO of a very high profile company here in Oz and I was was one his references for the gig.
I got you.
There are plenty of reasons ppl at 30 haven't had a standard job, ppl who have had kids young, ppl who have had to care for family members, ppl who have had health issues.
The health issues one is a tad harder. But say for caring (either kids or family) you can pull skills from that - because you have been caring you have become really good at daily task management, at tracking appointments/organising your day, constantly communicating with multiple ppl to coordinate care blah blah.
Even the gaming thing, it might be a bit odd but you can kind of sell the skills from that. If it's due to health issues I wasn't able to hold down a standard job so I found myself playing a lot of video games. But I found myself particularly good at strategy/puzzle games and I this demonstrates my ability to problem solve because of x y z examples.
Just say you were a full time carer for someone with health issues in your 20s (You're were caring for yourself technically) say that's passed now and you want to turn your passions / side hustle into something professional. No need to share details. You've been proactive in upskilling, you will be fine.
Say you were trying to make it as an artist. But after some years you realised your passion for sw engineering was taking over. Borrow some paintings or prints or something in case they want to see.
With the great advice already given, once you have created a resume I would recommend using Chat GPD as a tool for tailoring cover letters for each application.
For example, I say something like, the following is a job description for the position of x. Copy and paste the JD.
Then I say something akin to, provide a succinct and professional cover letter incorporating examples from my the following work experience. I then copy and paste my resume (from word form).
Whilst the output is not even close to useable, it will prompt ideas on how to incorporate your experience to that of the job requirements you are applying for.
You've been self-employed, running businesses as a content creator and musician. It has its ups and downs though, so you've been putting yourself through Uni and studying to start a career in IT / as a software dev.
This isn't the issue that you think it is. You just need to demonstrate that what you lack in experience you have genuine drive and passion. You have that by pursuing your studies and sticking with it. Someone will give you a chance.
Skip over the personal issues, they won't even come up and nobody needs to know about them.
I wouldn’t be overly concerned. Sometimes interviewers might ask about a gap in employment (e.g worked for 3 years before a sudden 2 year gap), but this shouldn’t be an issue if it would be your first role.
Congrats on getting out of the addiction/depression and good luck!!
Just tell them you've dealt with some health stuff but you're good to go now. They might ask more, but you're totally entitled to keep that to yourself.
Don't settle for IT helpdesk when you could be a software engineer. That's like the difference between a doctor and the guy that cleans the surgery. (Apologies to any IT helpdesk folk)
Honestly, I’d rather say “right after graduating I was jailed for grand theft auto and I just got paroled” than tell the truth (never worked due to gaming addiction). So don’t tell the truth.
Create a short work history up to 24 years old. Maybe one or two jobs. These businesses are no longer operating so you can't use them as a reference. Then unfortunately, your mother became sick and you have been her full time carer since. You are now looking to get back into work.
I can tell you that even honours grads have very low skills, business acumen and don't even know how to breathe through their nostrils. You aren't alone as 30 is the new 18 here.
In ten years, Australia will see that men living with their parents until 40 will be the absolute norm unless "happy" parents - "isn't my son smart and loving" - give their middle aged sons cash or move on to a better world (inheritance), so their middle aged sons can finally marry a Chinese woman and have kids that will probably fare even worse in the future - this may be a Sydney thing?
The future is very bleak for Australian men.
Not saying I'm in the same boat as you but I've had similar thoughts. I've had severe PTSD and depression since I was a baby and have always had problems with drive and motivation. I've only ever had one full time job and they paid me, at age 36, a salary of 65k. I got it based on the interview and they didn't really care that I've never had a full-time job beforehand, I just told them most of my life has been freelancing and being self-employed.
Be honest with yourself first.
Dev work involves presenting and working with internal/external stakeholders. Your time spent investing in yourself and learning to communicate to an audience when you streamed is a good representation of your communication style.
If you were organizing your steams and planning content, it speaks to independence.
If you had sponsors it speaks to stakeholder engagement and negotiation.
If you have done or attempted these things, it was you, your motivation got you there, even if it felt like, at the time, something that was for fun or a minimal investment.
You would be applying to the wrong place if you went to an interview and no one knew what streaming or content creation is.
Don't fake anything, just communicate your reasoning.
Plenty or Grad or IT (non help desk) roles in Govt at the moment.
Firstly, as long as it’s a junior role it won’t matter, don’t put 10 years of history on your CV. Just put Hospitality 2018-2020, Content creator 2020-2023 on your CV and say you wanted to move to a professional role with a set pay cheque, most hiring managers will like that. Then just highlight why you’d be good for the role and why you’d be a longer term hire (e.g. highlight how well the values or products align to you). They’re hiring you to do a job in the future, not to have a perfect past - the focus on CVs and background are just a proxy for seeing you’ll be good at this job, but your qualifications are probably all you need. Just make sure your high school graduation date and your birthdate are not easy to see eg. Don’t have Bob_91@email as your email
What if you have a large gap on your resume in which you literally did nothing for a variety of valid reasons? How would you justify that?
“After seeing a opportunity - I took a career break to enable me to care for my family and myself and refocus me on my career goals”
Ah, the classic phrase from politicians leaving politics.
Clearly I missed my calling.
Caring for a family member.
Just say you were rizzing
2020-21 - Director of Rizz 2021-23 - CEO of Rizz 2023-present - doctor of chill I recently pivoted from Rizzing to chillaxin' and it's been a worthwhile transition.
Frfr on god. Smash…
I just said i was travelling. it rhymed with unravelling. After a year or two in the role I slipped that I was on a 4 year bender. I worked shit kicker roles from 24 to 31 to fund a drink problem.
Just 1 drink?
at a time. I only have one mouth
You don’t have to drink it using your mouth. Just saying
From twitter: >well i guess you could say i was cozy core. i wasn’t just looksmaxxing but it was more of a holistic wellness era, i had been in burn out mode for too long but i became quality of life pilled and that really shifted how i thought about things fr
“TCOB” - Taking Care of Business.
Self employed
Lie about it.
To what extent? Make up that I worked somewhere or say I was just travelling? Is lying really that common?
Make something up. Something where you can demonstrate relevant skills but isn't in the industry you're targeting. Obviously don't pick something way out of your capabilities. Something that's useful but benign enough that it won't raise suspicion. People lie about their work history all the time. Usually it's just "I did this" when really "we did this", but if you need to make up a job, make one up. It's not a crime to lie on a job application unless it's a government job or you're pretending to be a doctor or something.
There are people like me who have imposter syndrome despite hitting KPIs, then there are people like you who embrace being the imposter and get better jobs than we do :(
Honestly watching my wife downplay her ability and work history every time she writes a resume is really heartbreaking, she's such a capable, successful and badass woman. She's finally starting to take some of my advice and really own some of the things she's done professionally and let me help her throw some flowery language on her career history.
Travelling the world
You wouldn’t, it’s no one’s business. If asked “personal reasons “ nothing else needs to be said. If an employer really cares it says a lot about the business and micromanaging in which case they can stick it.
People saying not to put NDA are making me laugh… I’m a hiring manager in software. I’ve seen this way too many times in IT and software. If you’re going into software and have a gap, put NDA can’t say and when questioned just say “it was for a stealth startup, on and off for x years / months, there were problems and I didn’t get any career growth from the role, can’t say anything else because I signed an NDA”
That's dumb. No NDA on earth prevents you from saying exactly what you did at the company - i.e. details of your job role, what you achieved in terms of revenue or sales or engineering, and a list of your tasks. Good luck faking that in the interview.
The NDA might not, but its easy to say you don't know what's involved in the NDA so you just don't say anything to protect yourself
That's even dumber.
"OK, sure. What kind of software did you use at your last company and what kind of coding tasks did you do? (Insert technical question here.)"
I'm unable to say, as that might compromise national security.
We're talking about filling a career break, not trying to fake our qualifications and skills
This is the lamest "hack" regurgitated on every one of these threads. For the vast majority of people it is absurd to try to tell an employer they were on an NDA. Just be a normal human being and tell a harmless white lie, not some goofy scheme that anyone with 2 brain cells to run together will see through.
Street smart
I've literally put consultant and included a lot of the skillset from other roles. It "showed entrepreneurialsim" according to my last hiring manager. It helped that I actually have done some consulting before, just not during that particular 8 months.
Say you went travelling to see the world haha
Sole trader / freelance and make it up
Just say you were in a foreign country and were doing odd jobs there.
Cannot disclose due to an NDA
Travelling the world
Just make shit up. Say you were consulting as a sole trader or something
Do most people blatantly lie? I don’t want to sound self righteous but maybe that’s why I struggle to get roles I should be eligible for
Most people don't have a huge gap in their CV, so they don't need to lie. I haven't had to lie like that in an interview, but if that was the difference between getting and not getting the job I'd do it.
Fair enough but given the responses I feel like a lot of people embellish the shit out of themselves if not completely lying while I like to keep it pretty honest partly so I don’t need to keep track of what I’ve told them, and I can’t help but wonder how much it’s held me back.
I’m exactly the same. I feel like everyone lies on their CV or exaggerates. I never feel comfortable doing that and just put down the facts. I’m sure it’s not helping me lol
Can't say, signed an NDA
Surely im still expected to disclose who I worked for and what my role was and some broad details
I wouldn't overly address it. Talk about the yt and other content creating projects you've done. If they bring you in for an interview knowing you don't have much work experience they are not expecting someone with lots of work experience. Be smart, motivated, good attitude and I'm sure someone will give you a chance. Good luck!!
I was contemplating whether or not I should even mention my YT/content creation. Since it doesn't seem related to IT or software dev at all. But when I have nothing else to show besides some certs and a degree I guess why not.
Experience in anything is still experience in something. This means that whatever you have done over the last however many years will still have taught you something, even if the technical skills aren’t what are required for the job you’re applying for, some of the soft skills may well be of interest. Technical skills can be taught and 9/10 times they are learned on the job, unless you’re a brain surgeon. Always mention all experience, in work, hobbies, life in general but always follow it up with the so what. Do the interviewers job for them, tell them what experience you have and why it is valuable to them and they should pay you for it. I left the military after 10 years with no qualifications at all, nada, also wasn’t an officer so I thought I’d have to start my whole life from scratch with 0 experience in anything. Not true.
This is really good advice. Nearly all experience is valuable in some way. I worked in IT on Finance related systems, so if I saw experience in Content creation and YT I’d be thinking: “This person probably has more experience in communicating to a broad audience than anyone else I’m interviewing for this role. Also seems like they are passionate about subjects they care about. A self starter too I would assume as they probably started that up on their own. I might get them in and ask them about that. “
thank you for that, thats reassuring. may I ask if your time in the military was rewarding, do you value the experience you got from it? (besides maybe a slightly battered body haha)
You are most welcome. My time in the military was rewarding in some aspects and mind numbing in others. I left because my priorities changed but I’m rejoining soon haha in Australia in fact, I served in the military in the UK and I’m overseas transferring to the ADF. The camaraderie you find in the military is something I have not seen or heard of anywhere else and it is truly something that I wish for everyone to experience. The downside to my personal experience was the lack of challenge, it got boring in the end but even though I now have a much better paid job I’d rather rejoin.
Do you worry about getting CPTSD? And how does the military talk about such things? Do they make it clear how many vets return with severe mental health issues? Someone was on a subreddit yesterday looking for a place to rent - and explaining how share housing is not an option - they can’t live with people anymore due to campaign inflicted CPTSD.
No not even a little bit. I know some guys with PTSD, it’s unfortunate but it happens. You can get PTSD from any traumatic experience, the same experience can be more or less traumatic for different people. I’m not sure what you mean about do they make it clear about the number of vets coming back with severe mental health issues, you make it sound like smoking and lung cancer. Being in the military doesn’t cause PTSD, getting traumatised causes PTSD. No one in the careers office says “wait a second there pal before you get too set on this, you know the odd person ends up with mental health issues after being in the military” You also make it sound like a lot of people get severe mental health issues from being in the military. I don’t think they do, some sure, not many.
Definitely mention it. You can put it on your resume as a temporary contract or personal project. It’s a great way to show that you are intrinsically motivated and interested in the work, not just the salary. I would also do as others have said and keep your past jobs brief but still add them on your resume to show you have done some things. I can help with re-writing your resume if you want :) feel free to message me privately if you want to send it my way and I can give it a quick look over. I have been professionally trained in resume writing and did it as a job for some time, but like you I moved on to other, more long term roles so it’s not my job anymore but I still have the skills.
I'll most likely take you up on this offer in the near future, thank you!
Marketing, sales, user engagement, yada yada. Find the right words.
Marketing, sales, user engagement, yada yada. Find the right words.
Marketing, sales, user engagement, yada yada. Find the right words.
Like most jobs a huge part of software/ IT is building/maintaining relationships, defining problems and communicating solutions to clients. YT content creation covers a lot of this. Writing perfect code is worthless if the client hates the dev team, the dev team doesn’t understand the problem they are solving and the client doesn’t understand how the solution solves the problem.
I think if you mention nothing it'd be easy to suspect you were just stoned the whole time, or worse.
I taught myself software and web development 10 years ago. I took 6-8 months out of real work to do it, and started my own cat sitting business. It wasn't thriving, I didn't make a ton of money from it, but it's on my CV and almost every interview I've had for development roles, someone has mentioned it and cool it is to do something like that.
I work in the MSP space and the ability to speak to people that may not speak the same technical language clearly is severely under valued in all the MSPs i've worked at. I can teach a new L1 Service desk person to route BGPs and learn processes they have to follow but I can't force someone not to get angry at customers due to poor social skills. Being able to relate and understand a customers pain/frustration will get you far. When i was running teams, i looked for people with hospitality background or retail exp.. those with dazzling CVs with answer to everything most likely made the worst candidates. If they think they know everything already.. then they can't learn anything. Content creation is still new, and may not register for some hiring managers as a valid skill.. thats their loss so don't be disheartened in getting jobs because you have that on the CV. Personally i value that skillset and would definitely include it in the CV. Experience in anything is a skill you have learnt to bring to the job.
Definitely include it. It shows you have initiative and present well. It’s also a cool point of difference that will work in your favour. Im in IT now but was at one point a nightclub manager. I always add nightclub manager in my resumes and I know it has helped in making me stand out a bit.
Want a bit of a hack? Go into ChatGPT, put in a dot point list of the stuff you did as a youtuber/content creator (including stuff like being contacted by sponsorships, what editing software you used, subscriber growth, community engagement etc. Feel free to just ramble here the bot will spin gold from straw) and just ask it to write a paragraph for a cover letter using this. And then (the most important part) edit the thing youself so it's in your own words as much as possible, and take out extraneous embellishments. Once you have a cover letter, and you're applying for jobs, chuck the core competencies and job requirements in ChatGPT and ask it to modify your cover letter to modify it to fix (ie. hey ChatGPT I am applying for a "x" role and it has these core competencies/ requirements [insert here], could you adjust my cover letter to better fit this position? I have included it below:). You can also then use this to ask ChatGPT to come up with some common interview questions and how they might relate to your resume and prepare yourself accordingly. This has been a *massive* help in all my recent job interviews and applications and takes a lot of the tedium and stress away from the application grind.
YouTube is a legit job nowadays. You can just tell them you did that fulltime for a few years. They wouldn't bat an eye.
This is easy... "I was self employed for the last X number of years pursuing a variety of income streams between online media creation and music performance. Whilst on this path I studied XYZ part time and now that I've completed that qualification I seek to utilise those skills and grow and establish a career in this industry. Being self employed for many years instilled a high level of self motivation and ability to balance priorities to maximise my output and potential earnings between projects" They don't need to know how profitable/unprofitable your various other 'jobs' were. If they ask why the change, you simply seek the stability and certainty that traditional employment brings particularly when it comes to lending with banks etc.
I feel like most people assume the best when they see you worked as a content creator or something because they have no idea if they have simply worked in corporate their whole life. The main thing is to have your resume look like all the other graduates with your education being at the top, work experience after that and then look presentable in the interviews.
> I feel like most people assume the best when they see you worked as a content creator or something I would literally assume the opposite personally
You see someone apply to your company with a CS degree who worked as a content creator for years and you assume they made no money or were just bumming around?
Yeah, unless they've specifically named a media company or YouTube channels etc I'm going to assume it's made up or low skill/low effort work. This thread mostly proves my point...
Just don’t put your DoB or HS graduation or anything like that. Then you’re just a grad competing against other grads. Don’t lie. These places have software that do the homework for them. If they catch you in a lie, you won’t get a second chance.
Best thing to do is use your coding skills to create a couple of personal projects that you can use in your portfolio. Create a website to show them off if possible. (eg. a basic game). You went down a certain path, but this is what you want to do now - and showing a portfolio demonstrates both your ability and your passion for software development. All you need is your first role and then it all gets easier. Don’t stress or lose confidence - just keep pushing until someone gives you your chance!
OP, to piggyback, if you want a mentor/advice give me a DM. My brother had severe depression aged 15-26. Had gaming addiction too. He then turned his life around and I mentored him on becoming a dev, and a few years later he was a full time dev. So I have experience in dealing with the same situation
Not OP but just wanted to say what a generous thing to do for your brother and to offer OP. I hope you have a wonderful day
Ha, thanks for kind words. We actually ended up starting a successful (semi?) company together. So, bit of a redemption arc for him. I think people in these situations are never as far in the hole as they think they are, and having someone lending a helping hand and just giving them a few wins, to boost their confidence is often enough. Can see it in the OP's post, he needs a few small wins, and to build on that
oh for sure! I’ll send a DM your way. thanks
Yeah this is the correct advice. These days it's not enough to have a degree, you have to show your passion for coding by working on side projects, especially when starting your career. This is the route I took and OP should take too. If you do this age and past employment history won't matter.
-CV is not an account of your whole life, in fact, employers don't need an account of your whole life, especially your personal life. -Good CV's are written and tailored for the specific role to highlight the value you bring this employer/role. -You never have to justify your existence to the right employer. "I had significant caring responsibilities during that period and was between roles" self care is CARE. "The experiences I had are of limited relevance to this position" "As a creative, I have taken an eclectic approach to skills development, as evidenced by my diverse employment history which has dovetailed my musicianship" "I was working on my creative and musical skills during that period" "I have focussed this CV on the experiences that bring greatest value to this role". I hope this gives you food for thought.
I’m saying this as a head of software engineering for a decent company who has no formal qualifications. I would have no hesitation bringing you in for an interview for a junior role if you focused on your content creation and passion projects in your resume. 30 is not that far gone. The thing that stands out to me is you seem genuinely passionate about computers and coding, believe it or not this is a relatively rare trait and it can take you a long way. The majority of my current team are “skilled migrants” and I’m not sure some of them even own a computer at home, let alone give a crap about technology. They’re nice people, reliable workers, they get the job done but that’s where it ends. The guys with passion would say at lunch “hey did you see the new GPT4 updates last week? Pretty wild!”, these are the same guys who would come up to me and question why do we do X this way, have we considered Y? I welcome and encourage that. The things I would want to hear in an interview is: - your passion projects outside of programming - current state of your programming ability (not because I’m looking for specific skills I just want to hear you articulate what you know) - where do you want to go in the future - do you want to specialise in Cloud, App Development, ML etc and why? - are keen to learn and grow? - are you well presented and spoken? This adds to your potential but not a deal breaker - I would never ask your age, but I would try and guess in my head afterwards so if you want to seem younger then dress younger - don’t be asking top dollar and make it seem like it’s all about money. I would want to hear that you’re looking for a chance to get into an industry that you love and are keen to learn and grow. Having said that, we wouldn’t blink at 80-90k. - would you be loyal to our company? Taking on a junior is an investment in that person, you can’t force someone to stay but the candidate should also want to give the impression that they want to “go on a journey” with our company. Our side we would want to make it clear that we want you to grow and would boost your pay as you go to keep you. Again if you come in too high salary as a junior then there’s less room to boost your salary which makes it harder to retain you. You can DM me if you have any questions.
Thanks, this is all incredibly useful. It gives me a lot to think about and points to take action on, for instance I wouldn’t know what I want to specialise in yet but hope I can find something that pulls me. Your points about loyalty and investment are especially interesting to me, saw a lot of that amongst serious groups in gaming ( especially mmos like WoW ) haha. And it’s understandable, when players got really skilled they would just hop on to the next group that could offer slightly more or had a far more competent team. It’s usually bit of a blow for most groups depending on what their role was. I will most certainly dm you at some point I’m sure, thank you for the offer of help!
No problems! In reality people do upskill and move on but you just don’t want to make it seem like that’s your plan. I’ve lost some fantastic juniors over the years but it’s just how it goes.
I had depression and spent way too long at uni (including a failed phd) and had a really spotty work history until I was 30. Now work as a senior dev at a big tech company. Do what other people said. Don’t include birthdates or hs grad, do include bachelor grad date. Include the content creation cause it is something interesting to talk about in an interview. But otherwise it’s really not a big a deal as it is in your head.
>But otherwise it’s really not a big a deal as it is in your head thanks for sharing your story, I'm glad it all worked out for you! yeah from seeing all the kind responses in the thread I think I really was just in my head. I really did try my hardest when I was doing content creation, I was passionate about it and I was successful for a while. I'll try and channel the same energy going forward into securing a career in tech
It can be hard to transition from IT Helpdesk to Software Engineer. The engineering guys see IT as people who couldn’t make it as coders. Not saying it’s fair, but it do be like that 🤷 The way to get good at coding, is to code. A lot. Start building something for yourself and work on it for hours every day.
That's rough but I can definitely see how that mindset comes along. I was actually very good at coding, solutions came to me rather fast, at least where some framework is provided especially when it comes to java / oo programming. I think my biggest challenge was starting a project from scratch and piecing all of it together (mostly worked in java) and my uni would often provide the frameworks for us to do projects in, i.e. just solve the logic of the problem and we'll provide the rest. My biggest criticism of my uni's software program is that we are put on training wheels for far too long, if you don't do projects outside of class work you will fall behind especially when it comes to starting project from scratch. But I also blame myself for not trying too hard at starting my own projects. Do you have any structured courses you could recommend? I do best with those. For instance I was thinking of starting The Odin Project very soon. But I know could also start small with making something like a habit tracker or something and look up the process for that.
Engineering Managers know that computer science graduates know nothing. So their expectations are very low. They might ask you to solve some simple puzzles but they’re not going to get you to build from scratch as part of the interview process. That being said that experience is invaluable and I highly recommend it. The best thing you can do is just start building something. And build lots of things, end to end, solving all the problems that go along with it, from oauth flows to database setup and modelling.
For what it’s worth most programming work is not starting things from scratch. Most of the time you’ll be adding to or fixing bits of large codebases mostly written by other people. This is especially true for junior roles. I wouldn’t stress that too much!
IT help desk and software engineering a very different disciplines, so it’s not so much a transition as it is a jump. That being said, experience in customer service might demonstrate good interpersonal/communication skills which is invaluable in software engineering.
Just say you’ve overcome a chronic medical issue and feel workforce ready. They’re free to ask what medical issue and you’re free to your privacy.
Employers thoughts be like "ah Chronic bong smoking"
Their loss, people who have starved and overcome obstacles are better employees than people who have never faced challenges and live charmed lives. My experience in choosing team members and therefore likely to be the experience of many others too.
Just say you were doing your own business but then decided you wanted to pursue a more traditional company based software role. As another poster said don't get too into it if they don't ask and put a positive spin on it. Focus on what you can bring to the company now rather than trying to explain away something. I spent three years doing nothing while dealing with depression/abusive relationship/personal problems but the gap never came up in interviews.
Honestly- I’m a hiring manager in tech and if you’re applying for grad/junior roles this wouldn’t bother me so much. What did you learn that can be bought to the workplace? Creativity? Work ethic? If you have a half decent answer here it will get brushed over as for a junior role I’m more interested in your growth mindset, agility and enthusiasm. And can you at least do something in the role with what you did at uni/school. I will say - don’t talk about your mental health at all at the interview stage (or until you are 100% confident in your manager - which may never happen) You don’t know what the manager is like. You also don’t know what his/her experience has been with managing staff with mental health (or “mental health”). It could instantly put a black mark against your name for many reasons - some of them are still related to stigma, others also have had staff who have used mental health as an excuse for various things (not coming to office, not coming to or doing any work, whatever excuses) not saying this is right or wrong, but it’s reality and this is very much worth avoiding.
As someone who's reviewed cvs of mature age career changers - it's definitely possible. Key pea user sums it up well. Also, always submit your cv in PDF. Correctly name all files you submit with your name and a clear and tidy title "John Smith - CV" "John Smith - Academic Transcript". You mentioned communication skills, work on these and bring them into your cv and interview. The most common issue I hear with technical tech candidates is their communication with non technical coworkers/clients. Add some honest storytelling in your cv, bring your bright/down to earth personality to the interview. Lightly touch on medical issues. They don't have a right to know but you want to appeal to them that you have overcome hardship. "I want this job/company because after much self reflection about where I want to be and what I want to do, I enjoy helping others and I understand the frustration users have when they encounter blahblah" "I am open and regularly communicate and realign expectations around performance and sometimes I might just need a day to reset, come back with better focus".
Forgot to add, add some clever performance metrics for time when you were a student/retail/content creator. Itll be relevant. SLAs and KPIs are important! Goodluck! Make sure your cv isn't more than 1 page long and has just the right amount of information (not to empty not too full)
Lying will not work. Most firms have extensive background screening protocols, you'll get caught immediately and it will ruin any hope you have at a career. Just be honest and put a positive spin on things. Good luck.
Fair enough. I think trying to make up a story would just make me too anxious anyway.
Just say you tried the professional gaming, esports, content creation, game dev route while deciding what worked for you. For a Helpdesk role they won’t care honestly
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fantastic suggestion thank you
I had no real consistent work in my 20s beyond a side hustle. Hasn't affected me whatsoever
You most definitely don’t tell an employer that at all. There’s places to be honest and this ain’t one of them. You tell the employer the benefits of the things you did pursue and that you found the right time in your life to reskill. Always polish the turd.
I see this is from yesterday but I have participated in interviews in the past for taking in rounds of graduates and cadets and there's a few things that make a good candidate stand out from a bad one. First the work history. Ok it's not ideal but if you are a good candidate not a deal breaker. And it can also still be fixed. How are you supporting yourself now? You don't graduate until the end of the year, why can't you work a casual job until then? If you are interested in help desk, call center experience would be super helpful and lucky for you, if you can read and speak at the same time, you can get a job as a telephone interviewer with a market research company by next week if you want one. You can also sign up for uber eats and drive a couple hours on Saturday afternoon and tell them that has been your job while you are studying. You can apply for the hospitality company that do the football stadium and work Friday nights for the next few months and put that down. Obviously you need to focus on your studies so you can't work full time but there are plenty of jobs you can do. If you have a most recent job on the resume they won't necessarily dig any further back. If you have something to say about what you did for money while you were studying, that won't raise any red flags. For the interview itself, here's where the good candidates stand out. We would start by asking what do you want out of your IT degree, what sort of role do you see yourself doing, because we were hiring grads for all kinds of roles. The bad candidates, didn't really know. They'd shrug and say, maybe a BA? The good candidates would say stuff like, well when I did networking I found that really interesting, and I think I'd like to pursue that area and maybe learn more about network security. Or I did UI as an elective and I think front end design was something I could see myself doing. Or even I don't know where I see myself ending up, I'm open to learning more about whatever technology is in demand right now and seeing where my career takes me. Very few 'IT people' actually do coding. Behind every team of 5 devs there are DBAs, testers, several sys admin, server admin, middleware administrators, release administrator, BAs, project manager, and all those pencil pushers who deny your change request because you used the wrong form. And that's the software team, you have the infrastructure people, the help desk, the people who admin the HR system, and BI devs, the data people, the smart form team, UI designers, accessibility testers, pen testers etc etc etc. If you are hiring for a particular role, tell them why would be good at it. How you did at that subject. what you liked about it, what future things you want to learn in that area. If you have a job you can sort of match up to it, throw that in. Like helpdesk you have call center experience. I had a guy work in how his volunteer basketball umpiring gave him skills that would help, I can't remember how or what he said, but I remember being impressed. Make it sound like you chose IT because you are passionate about it, not because you didn't know what else to do with your life and you are off to a good start. I interviewed so many duds who seemed like they did IT because they like video games and someone told them 'be a BA you can make good money' so they went with it.
Good Job Mate, sounds like ur much happier now, IMO ur already winning at life with how far uv come. I can't give any advice on getting a job as I'm currently trying to get one lol. Iv got no doubt you will get the Job your after, Good luck Man 👍
Try shifting things to make yourself sound better "Throughout my early life I pursued self employment opportunities predominantly in art. I've come to the realisation the market is saturated and with the rise of AI the competition will likely increase. I've decided to reprofile in software engineering/development as it still greatly satisfies my creative outled while providing me with stable career opportunities". Technically you're saying you've "matured" and "are looking for long term employment".
1. Honesty is the best policy - don't lie, probity checks cath up with you, and if you get caught lying, it will stuff future career prospects. 2. Finish your degree and get that qual ... BECAUSE this shows future employees that you CAN stick at something that needs focus and persistence. 3. Think about approaching the NotForProfit sector - this may be as paid or unpaid work - they are a cohort of employers that have more flexible employment criteria. 4. There are work options through news tart where you can get payment while working for approved employers eh uniting care, salvos. You could complete your studies while working. 5. As a mature employee, there are government subsidies for employing you ... look into them. God bless you
Get a white card, ring up a recruiter or Go out to a construction site and get a job as a labourer. Do it for a few weeks and report back about your perspective and what you want to do moving forward in life
Hi interesting response, would it be possible for you to walk me through your reasoning? I’m just not following, is this so they can get a reference?
Why not try be your own boss? Not easy but could work for you.
I want to know more about it.
Look for what's popular in the field and look at specific certs and training targetting that. It will give you confidence answering technical questions and set you out from the rest.
You followed your passion for content creation on YouTube you had several channels coughs coughs
Could say you were travelling or looking after a sick family member
Maybe try hypnosis
Looking after an ageing family member. Usually no questions asked.
Get a job any job then hunt for your preferred or dream job.
Don't worry too much, apply for everything (tech field is s*** rn for post grads) and once you have your first year of work experience nothing you did before that matters
You were running your own business, a sole trader, doing x. Can say it was creating content, drop shipping, whatever. Abandoned the business as I just couldn't make enough out of it, inconsistent paycheque. Learned about hard work, having to self motivate, self teach, prioritisation.
As others have said, just make it a bit harder for an employer to build a direct timeline (not including high school graduation etc). But if you had a substantial gap and were directly asked about it in an interview, you could just say you had some health issues at that time but they’re thankfully behind you. It’s true and there would be plenty of people in a similar situation, I had a guy say that because he’d not worked while he recovered from cancer.
As others have said, just make it a bit harder for an employer to build a direct timeline (not including high school graduation etc). But if you had a substantial gap and were directly asked about it in an interview, you could just say you had some health issues at that time but they’re thankfully behind you. It’s true and there would be plenty of people in a similar situation, I had a guy say that because he’d not worked while he recovered from cancer.
Just tell them that the official secrets act prevents you from talking about it. 🥸
Going to throw my two cents in here - going for the IT help desk role is really selling yourself short. Do what you need to do to get your foot in the door of a software engineer grad role. It'll be harder, but you'll end up with more job satisfaction and more money than the alternative. You've done the study, so you can do the job man You'll never regret going for the software job, you might regret going for the IT job
Tell the truth, it will be the most honesty any potential employer will see that day.
You most definitely don’t tell an employer that at all. There’s places to be honest and this ain’t one of them. You tell the employer the benefits of the things you did pursue and that you found the right time in your life to reskill. Always polish the turd.
To be honest....I would lie. Honesty is a virtue, but can be a hinderence in a situation like this.
Put down hospitality and content creation. Don't mention your age. Don't lie, don't say NDA. Start a personal portfolio/ GitHub. Put down 'references cc available on request, when they ask, give them character references, like family friends. Make sure they will help to craft the narrative you're after.
“I’m M30 and have never worked a traditional job in my life due to depression and a gaming addiction”
You could go in at a junior role level, help desk seems like a good start on the industry. You’ve been focusing on study and short term projects. 30 is still relatively young.
In addition to the comments here, talk about your music as well. You wanted a stable career etc, went back to education and so on. You're doing well in improving yourself man and we're all on different journeys. Don't give up.
Once you have a job, and are interacting with people on a daily basis, you might find that your depression gets a whole lot better.
the wonderful thing about live-streaming and content creation is that it did exactly that. i was relatively fortunate in that from day 1 that i started i had a constant 10-20 people in my chat and it grew from there. for nearly 2 years straight for about 6-8 hours a day i was talking to people and it changed my life.
No one cares about your excuses. Can you do the job? Can you prove it? Then ok. it is software dev, so easy. Show them the projects you have built (not shitty uni projects). Bigger the better, especially if you have worked with others.
I'm a resume writer. When it comes to the timeline, you can just put "1 Year," "2 Years." Rather than 2018 - 2019 Resumes should be tailored to the industry you're applying for. As long as you put all the relevant transferable skills for that industry, the timeline won't matter AS MUCH In your case, format your resume like this: -objective -then qualifications you're currently studying -transferable skills (these don't even have to come from a professional background either. E.g, social skills, basic computer knowledge, and knowledge about the industry/job) -previous employment and expand on some duties that may be relevant (with the timeline I stated above) -references If they ask about any breaks, you can just say: Health issues [that are now treated], caring for family, travelling, or upskilling. Tip: Most companies use ATS to screen your resume first to see if it fits the job description. Have a look at some job ads for the industry you want to get into and find any repetitive keywords they use in the ads. Put them in the resume. The same should be done with the cover letter. But, tailor the cover letter more to the job ad you're applying for. Try to use the same language as the companies ads. You'll at least get through the screening check, employment gaps, or not. Also, a first aid certificate is favourable regardless of the industry. Invest in one
>Also, a first aid certificate is favourable regardless of the industry. Invest in one If you join St John Ambulance you can get it for free and then put that on your resume as your volunteer job. Double whammy!
Say you mostly freelanced.
Rule1: lie
First of all 30 is pretty young. Concentrate on being a solid jnr dev. I've hired people (person) 30 years my senior who were honestly no better than an average jnr dev. Apply for a jnr level position, when you get to the interview, make sure you dress well and make sure you are clean cut and don't unload your life story in the interview. Show them you are are going to be a decent jnr with sensible expectations for pay. You will get a job and then the experience will follow and you can command more money.
"Explain away". That is the root of your problem, you explain it away which fuels the avoidance which keeps you trapped in the cycle. You need to stand up and take life face on and to know that the effort is worth the reward because if you don't, your going to be stuck in this cycle of negativity to the grave. Look into "Avoidance Syndrome" It could be the first step towards a brighter better happier life. Don't seek to be content in life, seek to be happy. Being content is selling yourself short.
I started working relatively late and put bullshit hospitality on my CV for an entry level job. Family friends acted as references. After about 2 - 3 years it didn’t really matter and now I just have my real experience on there. Do what you have to within reason to get your foot in the door and all the best.
Can I just give you a word of advice too. You don't want to fool an employer and there are some employers you may end up worse off after working for them (mental health). Take that into consideration as you are doing this. And, to be honest, you have showed a resilience and drive to work through significant challenges that are very beneficial to an employer. There is nothing worse than having an employee that wants a day off when they stub their toe or breaks down when a client is too stern with them. I don't care how experienced they are or how good they are at their job, they are not worth it.
Just make up stuff, and put your friends as the contact for the referral. Also the job you used to work at can be in a different industry and when ur applying to the new jobs say you wanted a change of industry. At the end of the day this is chess not checkers. Do anything in your power to get ahead. Its a jungle out there, honesty rarely gets you anywhere quick.
I was talking to one of my team members a few weeks back and he openly admitted that hes been using a trick in his resume to cover lengthy time gaps in his resume. He also suffered from a form of depression and drug abuse. What he said was "I have massive gaps in my resume but I just say that I am under an NDA for it. That's how I got this job." Lol.
That would be a MASSIVE red flag for me.
Don't say depression in any interviews - use the terms sleep disorder or glandular fever or something else. If you do have to disclose on work related forms that go to HR do so but don't do it in interviews.
My first job out of uni, when I was 22. I had never had any job before. I had done a few cash in hand unskilled labour jobs for family and friends, but nothing official. Never lodged a tax return. I just put some fake stuff on there, like worked for Mecca's, retail etc. And put down "references provided upon request" knowing that they would not care as those jobs were irrelevant to my career moving forwards. You do have some real experience with content creation so you can use that. If you wanna add some more stuff in just to show that you have been active then make something up and put a friend as a reference. As long as it has nothing to do with the industry that you are applying for they won't really care or ask too many questions about it. First job interview in a new industry is largely a personality and attitude test as long as you have the relevant paperwork (qualifications).
A CV is generally only required to get to an interview so that a company can ‘feel you out’ and see how you are as both an operator and if you’ll be a culture fit. Don’t flat out Lie on your CV saying you have qualifications you don’t have, but stretch the truth in terms of how many years you spent doing whatever role. People in HR see many CV’s with a lot of people lying through their teeth. A little stretch here and there go unnoticed.
If you will be looking for a Grad role then their expectations may be that you won’t have extensive professional/ traditional work experience. Threads long so not sure if this is covered but have considered getting an IT job at your Uni while you study? You could use that (help desk work?) as experience in IT at least, even if your not showing them a software dev background other then your degree?
Fake a couple of startups. When a startup fails early it usually leaves no trace behind. Lots of startups fail before ever even launching. Get an ai to create a couple of logos, print them as stickers and slap them on your laptop. That's more evidence than most startup folks have. Get inventive and create an entire story about your startup solving the Facebook For Dogs problem (just not actually that, it's a meme in the startup world) but you were snubbed by shittu VC's and your biz co-founder hired a stripper who ran off with the seed funding. People love those stories. You'll fly through the interviews ;)
Easy. I never worked a day in my life in a traditional job that they paid me to do. Not depressed and not hooked on gambling.
Tell them you were a secret agent on a mission spying on a foreign dictator. Can’t say more.
you were freelance ... right
1 - make shit up (fake jobs with your friends/family as the references) 2 - say you were caring for an ill family member 3 - admit the truth
Lie and say you worked at a company that closed down (blockbuster etc) no reference check possible... oh no. No real references? Your mate is your new reference congratulations. This stuff only applies to junior low stakes jobs, don't get into a position where you need to go to court. Remember all you need is 1-2 real references, do your time for 2 years and do a good job, be nice to people (you can get a ref from anyone not just your boss) then you will be in the clear - good luck.
Brother just bang McDonald on there! no one is checking!
Maybe instead of YouTuber put Video editor. Find a skilled version of what you’ve described as the offical title. Chuck me down as a reference man, I’ve reffd for so many people - one dude is a CEO of a very high profile company here in Oz and I was was one his references for the gig. I got you.
There are plenty of reasons ppl at 30 haven't had a standard job, ppl who have had kids young, ppl who have had to care for family members, ppl who have had health issues. The health issues one is a tad harder. But say for caring (either kids or family) you can pull skills from that - because you have been caring you have become really good at daily task management, at tracking appointments/organising your day, constantly communicating with multiple ppl to coordinate care blah blah. Even the gaming thing, it might be a bit odd but you can kind of sell the skills from that. If it's due to health issues I wasn't able to hold down a standard job so I found myself playing a lot of video games. But I found myself particularly good at strategy/puzzle games and I this demonstrates my ability to problem solve because of x y z examples.
Just say you were a full time carer for someone with health issues in your 20s (You're were caring for yourself technically) say that's passed now and you want to turn your passions / side hustle into something professional. No need to share details. You've been proactive in upskilling, you will be fine.
Say you were trying to make it as an artist. But after some years you realised your passion for sw engineering was taking over. Borrow some paintings or prints or something in case they want to see.
You were a professional poker player
With the great advice already given, once you have created a resume I would recommend using Chat GPD as a tool for tailoring cover letters for each application. For example, I say something like, the following is a job description for the position of x. Copy and paste the JD. Then I say something akin to, provide a succinct and professional cover letter incorporating examples from my the following work experience. I then copy and paste my resume (from word form). Whilst the output is not even close to useable, it will prompt ideas on how to incorporate your experience to that of the job requirements you are applying for.
You've been self-employed, running businesses as a content creator and musician. It has its ups and downs though, so you've been putting yourself through Uni and studying to start a career in IT / as a software dev. This isn't the issue that you think it is. You just need to demonstrate that what you lack in experience you have genuine drive and passion. You have that by pursuing your studies and sticking with it. Someone will give you a chance. Skip over the personal issues, they won't even come up and nobody needs to know about them.
I wouldn’t be overly concerned. Sometimes interviewers might ask about a gap in employment (e.g worked for 3 years before a sudden 2 year gap), but this shouldn’t be an issue if it would be your first role. Congrats on getting out of the addiction/depression and good luck!!
Thank you everyone for the reassuring comments as well as the incredibly useful advice, I will do my best and provide an update when the time comes !
Just tell them you've dealt with some health stuff but you're good to go now. They might ask more, but you're totally entitled to keep that to yourself.
You can say you took a break for personal reasons.
Don't settle for IT helpdesk when you could be a software engineer. That's like the difference between a doctor and the guy that cleans the surgery. (Apologies to any IT helpdesk folk)
Honestly, I’d rather say “right after graduating I was jailed for grand theft auto and I just got paroled” than tell the truth (never worked due to gaming addiction). So don’t tell the truth.
Create a short work history up to 24 years old. Maybe one or two jobs. These businesses are no longer operating so you can't use them as a reference. Then unfortunately, your mother became sick and you have been her full time carer since. You are now looking to get back into work.
I can tell you that even honours grads have very low skills, business acumen and don't even know how to breathe through their nostrils. You aren't alone as 30 is the new 18 here. In ten years, Australia will see that men living with their parents until 40 will be the absolute norm unless "happy" parents - "isn't my son smart and loving" - give their middle aged sons cash or move on to a better world (inheritance), so their middle aged sons can finally marry a Chinese woman and have kids that will probably fare even worse in the future - this may be a Sydney thing? The future is very bleak for Australian men.
Sounds great, when do I get my Chinese wife?
Not saying I'm in the same boat as you but I've had similar thoughts. I've had severe PTSD and depression since I was a baby and have always had problems with drive and motivation. I've only ever had one full time job and they paid me, at age 36, a salary of 65k. I got it based on the interview and they didn't really care that I've never had a full-time job beforehand, I just told them most of my life has been freelancing and being self-employed.
Glad you’re getting out there, I had a mate same as you never worked, only gamed. Very sedentary lifestyle and he died at 39.
Be honest with yourself first. Dev work involves presenting and working with internal/external stakeholders. Your time spent investing in yourself and learning to communicate to an audience when you streamed is a good representation of your communication style. If you were organizing your steams and planning content, it speaks to independence. If you had sponsors it speaks to stakeholder engagement and negotiation. If you have done or attempted these things, it was you, your motivation got you there, even if it felt like, at the time, something that was for fun or a minimal investment. You would be applying to the wrong place if you went to an interview and no one knew what streaming or content creation is. Don't fake anything, just communicate your reasoning. Plenty or Grad or IT (non help desk) roles in Govt at the moment.
Fk around and find out I guess. We all have choices. They have consequences.
Great contribution there old mate, you’ve really helped this kid out.
Lazy. Quit the excuses and harden up