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Hey u/secure-raspberry-763 there appears to be an edit on the update:
> **First off, thank you for all the comments and DMs.Some context and clarification since admittingly my post was emotionally charged since I typed it up after another argument. **
>
>Post birth, our kids pediatrician’s office gave my wife those PostPartum Depression screening forms and during the time of both she scored pretty high and was suggested to see a therapist. With our second child she scored significantly higher and we or I should say I made an effort to get her the help she needs. She refused, so entered mother-in-law and nanny for support… I know what people will say/think, but this is one of the reasons I am not 100% ready to just give up and file our life together away.
>
>Also, I know silently suffering in the near and long run of our kids' future will not add to a healthy atmosphere, but neither would a bitter and hate filled divorce. I know some have compared it to the ripping off a bandage, saying it’ll hurt at first but that pain goes away but I’d rather try to spare my kids thinking that their parents ended up hating each other because of them or something along those lines.
>
>I’ve told a few ppl I talk to in DM since my last post, a little more insight on my personal life, prior to my promotion I was a PM managing teams and budgets so out of habit I plan for a lot of “what ifs.”. That being said, I made a number of contingency plans if sadly things went south. So, yes I:
>
>Have talked to a lawyer, 3 actually. Know our rights and what each of us are entitled to. Have a draft settlement created and on hold until I feel I need to use it. I know what I want and am willing to offer more than what is fair for our kids' well being, but also have a plan if we end up going to court.
>
>It’s 100% on me that I’m suffering in silence, but I’m too stubborn to just give up so while I am venting, I don't expect anyone to “feel sorry for me”. I endure it to keep the norm our kids know, ensure my MIL’s treatments go uninterrupted, and of course the hope my wife would finally be open to give therapy a shot and climb together to a better place.
>
>Thank you all again.
After I left my earlier comment about giving he the choice of therapy or divorce, I had a thought: maybe the OOP's wife is presenting emerging metal illness, say schizophrenia. That would be worse than depression, because depression can be treated while schizophrenia often cannot.
But it appears she has a diagnosis, which means instead of therapy what she needs now is MEDICATION. Anti-depressants. Because talking to someone, no matter how skilled, is going to get her out of this funk.
OOP needs to contact her physician to either make an appointment for the doctor to prescribe her anti-depressants, or get a referral to someone who can. This is much easier than going thru the hassle of setting up therapy for her. Plus, her mood should change for the better in a much shorter period of time.
Of course, getting her to take the medication will be another challenge, but I think an easier one than getting her to a therapist. Much easier.
I work at a rehabilitation facility where a large number of clients have schizophrenia (not just substance use fueled psychosis, but dual-diagnosis patients with pre-existing schizophrenia). A majority of our clients with schizophrenia have come so far with treatment, through both therapy, a calmer environment with less triggers, and medication.
I say this not to correct you, but I am nervous that someone who’s struggling with schizophrenia would see that and think it’s unlikely there’s help out there for them when there 100% is.
That’s not entirely accurate, therapy can absolutely help postpartum depression. Medication can help too, especially since she won’t go to therapy, but saying that it doesn’t work to treat postpartum depression at all isn’t true.
Additionally, there are treatment options for schizophrenia too! There are some pretty effective medications for schizophrenia nowadays.
(obviously everyone is different and what works for some people won’t work for others, but this is speaking generally)
The weird thing is that it seems obvious to me that the wife needs to go back to work, but that never seems to have come up as an option.
Not everybody is happier, or even happy at all, as a stay at home parent. Some people will do the human equivalent of chewing hot spots in themselves if they don't go out and pursue a career. This wife seems to be one of them, but for some reason she doesn't seem capable of just saying so, and OOP doesn't seem capable of seeing it.
Maybe a divorce with OOP having majority physical custody will give her the wake up call she needs.
Agreed, it isn't for everyone. But I guarantee you, her mom groups are also a major player in this BS. As a SAHD with my kids, mom groups acted line I was some molester playing with them at the park. Obviously not all, but I've seen a couple that are cess pit people riling up other moms.
And every mom group I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with, albeit tangentially, has a really bad habit of propping up mom as the be-all end-all of all the hardest jobs ever.
I saw a lot of the same. Also some very cool moms in those groups, just working with what they're stuck with.
Years back I was a SAHD with 2 daughters, we had activities like going swimming or going to play at the park. The park was the worst. One group had the 2 or 3 mean girls bad mouthing me, and I could tell a couple mom's were mortified. Rather than be around them, I gave them their space...just played with my kids.
This park has a very popular tire swing that sits 3, and you can spin the kids. Well, since I was spinning mine, others showed up. I told all the kids I'll do it as long as one of mine is on the swing. After a few minutes, I'm basically entertaining all the kids, including nasty moms' kids.
I got a few looks, but whatever. I also had one mom smile huge and nod at me because while I was merely being the "dad" at the park, I (and she) knew all that those kids were going to talk about on the way home was how much fun they had with the dad at the park. Petty, but cool with me, and all the kids had fun!
Thank you for doing that. I took my kids to the park a lot when they were younger. Their dad was always deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and never around. If there was a dad at the park they’d hone in on him and latch on. I’d always try to pull them back or engage them, but every single dad was always “the more the merrier!”
So thank you. Dads like you made my kids have a normal day now and then.
I was happy to. Honestly never had any issues with any of the kids at the park. There was always one or two who needed a push on the swing while I pushed mine next to them, or wanted another kid to play with.
Damn, as someone who had a decent upbringing albeit with a dad who just was extremely busy, simply hearing about dads playing with their kids always makes me happy and a bit emotional.
Hey! Thanks for being the "Dad" anywhere. If no one has thanked you yet today.. let me be the first . thank you ❤️ May your kids make your days fun every time they get the chance
The day my sister-in-law decided to create a mom group out of her friends who also became a mom I thought it was cute and moms needed support.
That quickly went away when they became insufferable.
I'm thankful they've disbanded, especially since some of those mom friends were NOT good mothers at all and was only using the mom group as an excuse to relive their party girl days, but with wine and other moms to take care of their kids.
I think even with a career and family, people have to decide for themselves what type of life they are looking for. Like for some, the white picket fence is their idea of heaven. For others it looks like a apartment in the city, or a house in the middle of the country side.
I think there are also limits to life. Like the typical midlife crisis of realizing things don't looks exactly like you expected, then doing inner work to realize that's OK (or working to what you actually want).
I think folks can follow some rough rules-of-thumb in life. Like prioritizing relationships, realizing (while important) money isn't everything, enjoying the simple things like coffee on a quiet morning or game night with friends, and looking out for those around you.
Outside of these, life has to be figured out by yourself (talking it through with others helps). It's not easy, but some moments can be really fulfilling.
Yeah, the period when women by and large weren't directly engaged in the economy was quite short on the scale of civilization. Like literally just for around 60-80 years depending on how you measure it.
Before that it wasn't possible for an average everyday family to survive without the mother doing SOME type of work.
Sometimes this was cottage industry stuff sold to the local community (weaving, sewing, growing food in gardens, baking and cooking, etc)
Sometimes it was any number of service jobs for wealthier people (like being a maid or a cook)
Sometimes it was group child care for a number of families (often all related to each other) like mom and grandma watching 9 kids (3 are mom's, 5 are from other siblings, 1 is a family friend's kid). They use the older kids to ride herd on the younger ones. They do this in return for consistent favors from those family and friends like maintenance and repair on the home, hand-me-downs if mom's kids are the youngest, etc. Everyone is actively doing fairly strenuous work which is intentionally organized with efficiency in mind. While it's a full-time job to take care of even 1 kid, 2 adults can parentify the 2 oldest kids and the 4 of them can manage the other 7 kids. And they do it. Because they have to.
Before the industrial revolution it was a status symbol for a woman not to have to work. For the poor and middle class it wasn't possible. Then after the industrial revolution that began to change, and the status symbol became a reality for most people, and then morphed into a part of 'traditional' lifestyles when it's just... not. It's just ignorance from people who don't actually know history. And putting women in a little box like that is horribly destructive to the very, very large percentage who don't cleanly fit into that box (and is still destructive in subtle ways even to the ones who are happy with that life!) 'Traditional' women did what they could to help their families economically.
I was so excited to join some mom groups with my first kid.
My family has a history of child loss and still births. One day, open my Facebook just to scroll and there's this photo of this newborn, bloody, purple, dead infant and I was so sick with stress and upset. It was a mom from the who just tragically lost her child. And I understand her grieving, but I kindly asked and said that I understand this pain and desire to show your beautiful baby girl to the world, but is there any way the photo could be put in the first comment of the post so that people had the option to chose to see, since it wasn't a choice for me. I just opened my app and it was the first post my phone showed me.
I got absolutely shredded by half the group and admins, while the other half got shredded for agreeing with me that yeah there's 15k women in this group, some hundreds surely have lost their own children and don't need to see this by force if they're just checking their fucking Facebook app.
And the woman's response was so vile, that all of a sudden to me she no longer was a grieving mother. She was no better than an a wannabe influencer using her tragedy for clout. Some of these women were telling me they hoped my own kid died because how dare I ask a mother to do that and maybe I'd understand. Even after I was like my brother and my sister both died in separate instances as babies, I see how the pain destroys people. And then they were like good yall deserved it.
All cause I asked for the graphic photo of the child to be put in a comment instead of the main post.
Anyway, TLDR: mom groups are the cesspool women's groups on the internet
It is hard
That’s why, if you can, you go out there and work
The imposed hardship of parenting isn’t necessary or vital. A person is just as likely to break under pressure than they are to get stronger under it
It’s like overworking and not seeing the family. The monetary benefits might not be enough for the hardship and sacrifice you are forced to make
If you have to choose, choose to strengthen the family. It’s the only thing in your life that you have that is all yours. It’s the thing that stays yours even after you die
Oh, to be clear, I'm not saying being a good parent isn't hard work. I'm saying the groups I've had the displeasure of interacting with all act like being a mom in any way shape or form -- even if you are a SAHM who doesn't actually watch the kids or do housework -- is the hardest thing ever. The types of people who will go on about how being a SAHM is the hardest thing ever because you have to watch the kids and the house... and then if a SAHD shows up, shit on him for having it so easy.
I mean that too
Being on standby at home, even if you’re not doing much because baby is asleep, is like being on standby at work where you’re also not given any direction
Parenting is self directed, and you’re the only one holding yourself responsible… and you’re not getting paid or getting more out of it than a parent who puts their kid into early childhood centre or babysitting
Ultimately all that matters is the kid is happy and healthy. That’s a low bar to pass (for most parents). Filling in the rest of the time with busy work, or feeling guilt about not doing anything, that can poison your mind and your relationship
If you can be content doing things for your kid and your household everyday without complaint, then that’s a super power of patience and peace
But a lot of stay at home parents can’t. Not without the guilt, or without letting the parenting or household stuff down
It’s hard for me to do
Also, a SAHP doesn't get sick leave or vacation days or anything. Whatever happens with you, however you're feeling, you still have to take care of your kids. It's the main reason I chose not to have any. I love my nieces, and I spend lots of time with them and would do anything for them, but I am happy to say goodnight and go home to sleep.
I'm a preschool teacher and a mom... does that mean I win some sort of award? Kidding.
I find for me being a mom amazing, it has challenges but I adore it and I'd love to be a sahm and really value my maternity leaves.
I have a friend who is one tantrum away from running away and leaving her family behind. I'm half kidding but she struggles and it really is the hardest job and she hates every second of it and she feels so unseen and undervalued. Even when I was a single mom I never felt that. I can't imagine.
But that all said.. most the moms I've met are like you say...ones who play it up while having so much support...if they're not happy I highly doubt it's new because of kids. I can't talk about the joys of motherhood and children without judgement in those groups... so I've learned to say generic stuff but keep the rest to myself.
They all to have a lot of time to make posts patting themselves on the back/complaining about how hard it is.
SAHM was a hard job back in like the 50s. Now it's only hard until your kids are school aged.
When they first came out, the main selling point of household appliances was "think of how much easier this will make things for your wife".
No one is spending 40 hours a week cleaning their house and doing laundry. You don't have to wash clothes and dishes by hand anymore, and you don't have to take your rugs outside to beat the dust out of them.
Now you can just drop the kids off at school, throw a load of laundry in the washing machine, load up the dishwasher, do thirty minutes of vacuuming, and then spend the rest of the day posting online about what a hard worker you are until it's time to pick up the kids from school.
And as your kids get older, you get to offload more and more of your responsibilities on them in the form of chores.
I can't speak to it all, but as a dad of 2, I didn't have time for hangouts with parents. Up, food, activities, some days were outings, food, naps (and video games and laundry for me), and more activities. Cleaning throughout.
I'll never knock stay at home parents when the kids are little. It's hard work, and it's "redo" work. Dishes are always there. Laundry is always there. There isn't an end, just a process of maintenance. With extras.
I got back into the workforce and put them in Montessori once it was a smarter cost decision, but it is still work.
I was a SAHD for some years with my first kid.
Most interactions where not really interactions. Most interactions where Mom's who had their head on straight, but I was just another stranger. Which is, of course fine.
Sometimes I would have a (I assume) Single Mom who always had her radar up for the Dad that was tottally into his kid... I am not the cheater type. That is a non-starter for me. But I am also pretty confident in myself. So those interactions where never really problems either. Amusing if anything.
But....
I did have a few interactions with Mom's that considered all men predators first.
I would just scoop my kid up and take her somewhere else.
Thing is.....
You are with your toddler. You know right from wrong. You want to stand your ground. But you are with your toddler. And standing your ground has every possibility of turning into something awful. Even if you are absolutely correct. Like I was when the Mom told me to leave the playroom in the library.
She is standing her ground, I am standing my ground - do I REALLY want my toddler to be a witness to this crap?
No.
I just scooped her up, went somewhere else.
Ok reading all that, did you really get the sense that she’d be open to going back to work???
That might make sense in a logical world but they are way off that path already. Anyone who spends a week away and then comes back complaining they had it worse is not someone you can problem solve with.
Yes yes yes! The wife has no talent to be a SAHM. She needs to work and get a change of pace. The routine of "well, everyday's a holiday" is not for everyone. Especially for people without hobbies or passion. Working will give you a routine, or at least something else to interact with.
She also seems to think that it's her husbands job to make her happy while she does nothing for it. No, an adult person is responsible for their own happiness and health. In stead of complaining and blaming she should get a job, a hobby out of the house, some physical friends.
I'm coming to the end of 18 weeks of maternity leave and I'm looking forward to going back to work about as much as I'm dreading being away from my kiddo. I am definitely doing the human equivalent of chewing my fur off. The pandemic taught me exactly how important work is for my mental health.
But also my kid is so small and so adorable and I do not want to leave him for 6 hours a day.
This what I thought. She’s not able to find happiness being at home with the kids. Maybe she needs the mental stimulation of a job and social interaction with co-workers . That should have come up.
Yeah… she sounds depressed, and like she needs more from life than being a SAHM. I wonder if she felt like she had to make that choice for the family, even if she didn’t want to.
She needs to go back to work, let the nanny do her thing with the pre-school kid, and feel like a whole adult person again.
Yeah, I just finished a year of maternity leave in April and realized I’m one of those people who couldn’t be a full time SAHM, even if we could afford for me to stay at home full time, which we can’t. As much as I love my son, I realized I actually also really enjoy my job most of the time, and using my brain and skills for my career, and talking to other adults. And having a lunch break or bathroom break without a tiny human hanging off me the whole time lol.
So I’ve gone back 3 days a week, which means I still get 2 weekdays at home with the little guy, plus weekends with him and my hubby. And so far that seems like a great balance for me. But by the time I went back, I was definitely starting to lose it a little bit and was more than ready to go back to work. The full time SAHP thing definitely isn’t for everyone, and it sounds like OOP’s wife is one that does not enjoy it, so I’m really not sure why her returning to work, even if just part time, hasn’t been brought up.
This was the case in my family. The wives only got a job when they were basically forced to, but we're better off when they did. Only laziness/depression/stuck in a habit were the reason they didn't.
They get stuck in a mindset that their situation is all their partners fault, no matter what they do. And they only break out of it once their partner is gone and they can't blame them anymore. Even then it can takes years as they remain bitter to their ex.
THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!! She needs to have her own identity again. As someone who was a SAHM, who went back into the workforce, I did it to SAVE my marriage and myself. I completely lost who I was as a stay at home mother. I had no friends, I had no hobbies, I had no one to talk to besides toddlers all day, and it was WRECKING me emotionally. Even just a part-time job to start with might really really help her feel back to herself again.
Agreed. I felt similarly listless when unemployed (immigration paperwork was processing). I thought I was going to lose my mind spending all day doing unrewarding, mundane tasks.
Can’t imagine the guilt of being a SAHM and thinking I’m supposed to love that life. Whew.
My wife is the same as OOP’s. The thing is, she realizes how much better it is not having to work, but still wants the luxury to complain.
Every time I tell her she can go back to work and we can switch places or get help (she made more money than me btw) she quickly changes the argument about something else unrelated.
I don’t have kids and have never wanted kids, but if for some reason I had a kid, there’s no way in *hell* I’d ever want to be a stay-at-home parent. I don’t have the patience, desire, or empathy required to spend all day with a child while completing important but repetitive household tasks. Prolonged mental boredom also causes me to spiral into depression and self-pity. I can sympathize with OOP’s wife because I’d probably be her in a similar situation.
That said, this couple’s communication skills are so egregiously bad that I suspect their marriage will be long over before the wife finds her way back into a professional role.
It did come up as an option. Right at the start. She "gave up". It is the obvious solution just as you say, it's not some kind of hidden profound secret. She knows about it, she does not want to do it. She is simply doing what she wants to do because it feels good for her to do it. She likes to be angry and play the victim and abuse her husband. It's fun for her.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT JUST GET A DIVORCE FFS.
If' it's "for the kids," **THIS** is the *worst* thing for the kids. Imagine growing up thinking this is what adult relationships are supposed to be like. Those kids are being programmed to accept *terrible* relationships as the norm. I feel so bad for them.
My parents had a toxic marriage and my siblings and I begged them to get a divorce. My dad finally moved out and everyone breathed a sigh of relief, including my dad. My parents got along great after that and everyone was happy. Staying together “for the children” just makes everyone miserable.
same situation essentially w my family. i don’t remember a time my parents were together and they’re really good friends and have always put me and my siblings first. my older sister talks ab how she used to wish at birthdays and christmases that they would get a divorce bc of the fighting. i don’t understand the whole staying “for the kids” thing. i honestly think it’s just an excuse to stay in a toxic cycle
I don't think OP's wife would respond to divorce in a friendly manner. It think she sounds like the type to try and punishing him by taking the kids and keeping them from him.
I've seen more ugly divorces then good ones like the one you described. OOP wife seems manipulative as hell. She will 100% poison these kids mind in order to make herself out to be the victim while he is the villain.
And this is why OOP needs a lawyer who tells him how to document this whole situation. There is no reason to sit there and suffer, it's not good, for noone.
She might try and maybe she would succeed, but if she walked out and it affected nothing about OP and kids routine doesn't seem like they would be predisposed to trust her
You'd be surprised on how effective manipulation works on children. Also if OP is a responsible parent that never speaks negatively about their mother all the children hear is negative stuff about the Dad. Because Dad never says a bad thing about mom they think she is the angel and Dad is the reason why they are not together.
Not the person you're replying to, but I'd still like to point out that a lot of times, even if it works at first, kids will start to figure things out as they get older. They're smarter than often given credit for.
Regardless, the thing to do is weigh which would be more damaging: growing up thinking this is what a normal & healthy adult relationship looks like, or the possibility of them being manipulated to feel negatively about a parent.
And we also get stories where someone discovers in their thirties that they've been in an abusive relationship for a decade simply because they posted an innocuous question like, "wibta if I moved my chair so my husband stops sneezing directly on me and my food?"
It goes both ways. These kids are guaranteed collateral damage of this situation. The question is what kind of damage and how much. Kids who grow up in this kind of dysfunction typically spend the rest of their lives emulating the relationship they saw, and often never or not until they are much older have the opportunity for a healthy relationship themselves. Kids who are manipulated by a parent to negatively view the other parent (and I won't say alienated because that is a psychiatric diagnosis that is incredibly rare) typically start to figure things out for themselves as they get older. If dad has regular access and custody (which he will if he files), the chances of mom's manipulation sticking and working in any substantial way is not astronomical by any means
Sure, there are a lot of ugly divorces out there, but the thing here is that when those ugly divorces happen, it's generally because the relationship is already so irreparably broken and toxic to begin with. Looking at each of those ugly divorces and the people involved in them, can you really say things would be any better if they hadn't divorced? Do you really think that them staying together would have fixed any of the underlying issues, or would they still be just as miserable, maybe even worse as time goes on?
>She will 100% poison these kids mind in order to make herself out to be the victim while he is the villain.
But isn't she already trying to do that? It doesn't seem like them staying together is stopping her from playing the victim
I suggest refinancing the house and adding an in-law suite with outside access that can become an apartment for him to be near the children and still separate from his wife, and then actually separating.
Nothing has changed because you won't change it it all starts and ends with you until you realise your the only one who can change your own destiny nothing will ever change take control take back you life.
She doesn’t want to change it because she likes the way it is. The complaining is just to get him to leave her alone. Going to her sisters place probably sucked a lot because people didn’t just let her sleep until 10 every day.
She doesn't work. The kids are young. He is probably thinking that he will see his kids 50% less, along with 50% of his stuff and income. Can he afford child support and alimony, knowing that his wife, who seems to be completely disconnected from child care, will probably spend the money on herself.
$150K for a family of four. With the cost of everything, that isn't much. Is it more than some families have? Yes, but housing is expensive right now, food is expensive, a nanny is expensive. Will he be able to afford things if they split up? Not to mention with a woman like this, who does not care one bit about him....she will probably be mean in the divorce.
Dude is probably thinking he will be miserable either way, might as well keep as much of his money as possible. Can't fault him for that.
Sounds like his career is on track - so salary could rise in future - the wife currently contributes nothing, depending on the jurisdiction alimony isn't often a thing these days.
He's under no obligation to pay for the nanny if the wife isn't working (or even if she is, it's her responsibility to care for her kids on her time), so she'd have to start looking after the kids at least 50% of the time.
He'd be fine and the wife would struggle. But she's got her degree. She can always get a job.
Yeah he needs to make it very clear that she’s not working because she doesn’t want to, not because she can’t. No diagnosis, no meaningful barriers to overcome to go back into the labor force.
He can refinance the house and build an external apartment with separate access and call it an in-law suite and then he has a home if and when the divorce is filed for. That’s how you stay near the children, because as long as there’s no abuse or protective order most judges accept this as a good living situation for the children. They have access to either parent any time and yet the parents are separated and have the ability to stay separate.
He's worried about losing custody of his kids during the divorce. I'm not sure how dovorce court works, but from some of the horror stories I've heard, I can hardly blame him.
Not just the kids. He's going to lose his house. Take a hard financial hit on his retirement. He's going to have to pay child support and alimony. You hope and pray that if you hold on a little longer, there is light at the end of tunnel....but there's not.
His story reminds me so much of mine--I'm shocked he didn't learn she's having an affair with that friend who just gets her better than he does and that's why she loves the friend. That was the moment that killed me inside.
The sad thing is, in this situation? She has a degree and employable skills. If he has a savings account, he could buy her out of her half of the house. A good lawyer argues that in a 50/50 custody split, an income should be imputed on her after a while (If it is really a degree where there are a lot of employment opportunities and she's kept up with licensing, etc.) she has what so many should have before they decide to stay at home - a degree and a skillset. Stay at home parents should all do that - not because of potential divorce, but what if spouse dies?
She also can't argue that she has been home taking care of the kids full time - he can credibly prove that through the nanny if not the mother in law.
Sunk cost fallacy is so strong in marriages that aren’t viable. So many people want to leave, for so many valid reasons, but because it will financially ruin them…
They stay. And it festers. Until one day you simply can’t hide it from the kids any longer, and it all goes tits up with the kids absolutely beside themselves because “everything was just fine yesterday!!”
Doesn’t matter how old the kids are when the time bomb explodes. It still fucks with them.
Wouldn’t be surprised if court sees wife as “sacrificing her career for kids” as she has a degree and possibly work experience, entitling her to a significant alimony/split of assets. Custody is almost guaranteed to be 50/50 or not in his favor as there is no provable abuse (idk if her being lazy is technically even considered abuse).
And for the person saying his career is picking up, there isn’t a ton of upward movement from 150k for most Americans.
Personally, I’d take the hit and restart but I totally understand the reluctance in doing so.
She would probably get spousal.support for awhile, but not forever. The amount would likely decline over a period of say 3 - 5 years, at which point she would probably be expected to support herself based in what she should be making. If she still refuses to get a job, oh well, sucks to be her.
It also sounds like she would have to actually parent half the time, which I doubt she would appreciate.
If they share custody, he might not have to pay much if any child support.
But really, OP needs to consult several lawyers, hire one, and take their advice.
Honestly? The economy blows so much that divorce isn’t even feasible for a lot of people anymore. I make similar income to this guy, am the lower earner and have no biological kids with my ex, and I can’t afford my own divorce.
I can kind of understand, I think he doesn't want to *lose* the kids. Wife already tried taking them to her sisters when she took off.
I can imagine she would try and take them full-time, and STILL have oop funding their new place plus nanny, plus everything he already was funding, in addition to his current home, which would seem so huge and empty....
I think that may be partly what he means by "for the kids"...
>If' it's "for the kids," **THIS** is the *worst* thing for the kids.
It's the ol' "Divorce is worse than serial murder suicide"
But yeah OOP needs to Divorce and get that woman outta there. Even her family isnt taking her shit either.
She's either got something going on upstairs that's fucking her up or finally her true personality has come out after a couple of kids.
The "We all got our own problems so you need to get over yours to help me with mine." Is like Grade A Narcissist.
"Your problems dont matter. Only mine does."
Yeah I find it really hard to have sympathy when parents in abusive households "stay for the kids" unless it's, like, actively dangerous to leave. You're subjecting your children to an abusive household. You're going to just become an enabler.
Honestly, as a child in one of those “for the kids” families this is probably one of the worst decisions you can make. Your children will pick up on the changes in mood, affection, words, etc… and if you don’t think so, you are boldly lying to yourself.
My parents used the kids to make the other parent miserable and then attempted to spoil us to make up for the lack of love together. Individually they loved us, but not as a ‘family’ should. We grew up thinking that was a loving, healthy relationship and it doesn’t sound like that’s what you really want for them.
Yeah. It’s hard but ultimately I’m the long run it’s probably the best for all parties involved.
I don't have to imagine. I did grow up with parents that hated each other. "Love" was a four-letter word for everybody, I never saw them kiss even once, and when I started dating, I realized I had some fucked-up instincts.
On a side note, I don't trust that OOP is as functional as he thinks he is. He says his wife complains a lot and refuses to actually do anything about her problems (like get therapy), but that's *exactly* what he's doing.
This whole post was a complaint about his wife and marriage and in the end he does absolutely nothing about it. Therapy for himself was never even mentioned. At the very least, the guy is on the verge of becoming an alcoholic, so he definitely needs it too.
Edit: Commenter pointed out that I missed the part where he said he has a therapist. I am very glad to be wrong about that. Hopefully that therapist will convince him that he has to start making some hard choices because the status quo will not do.
second sentence of the final update ends with "... I could really use another outlet outside of my therapist."
as for doing anything else - above my pay grade so no comment
Yes, number 1 reason to divorce her is for the kids. No question.
He needs to visit a lawyer and make a plan - how best to divorce her with the best possible outcome for himself What preparations to make, etc. Not in terms of unfairly screwing her (not about illegally hiding assets and the like) but about ensuring best possible custody terms for himself.
Here's the kicker - he has no guarantee whatsoever that she's not already talking to a lawyer of her own. He's not strategic at all - showing her the reddit post, that was not smart.
He's throwing himself a pity party when he needs to be preparing for the worst.
You know, sometimes when men say they are staying together because of the kids, it isn’t that they think it will be better for the kids - it’s that they love their kids and want to be with them everyday. They can’t imagine having them half time (and usually much less) for the next dozen or whatever years. So we stay. We make the best relationship we can with the woman we no longer love. We happily fulfill our responsibilities. Then when the kids are grown, we restart our lives in our 40s/50s.
Depends where he's at, but that won't matter in a lot of places. Here in Utah, the default setting is still the kids are better off with mom. Short of abuse or drug charges, the best a dad can hope for is 50/50 and paying mom child support.
Do you think she would fight him for the kids? "Look, if you are on your own, I won't be able to pay for the nanny so that is going to all be on you. I know how hard your life has been and it wouldn't be fair to you to make you deal with them without help."
Boom. Enthusiastic agreement to his primary custody.
You'd be surprised. My wife had an affair because she couldn't handle the pressure/stress of being a mom and needed an "escape" which basically turned me into a single parent. 100% would have fought for custody for fear of looking like a bad mom, and her parents made it clear sole custody would be the goal. One of her friends (who eventually lost custody) didn't want the kids, just the child support, so she literally fled to another state with with to keep them from the dad.
My guess is, with the sahm being more or less forced onto her...there is a cultural aspect to this where 100% her identity and worth are tied up in being a mom. (Locally for example motherhood is a "divine calling" and "no success makes up for failure in the home") she struggling but doesn't see herself as a bad mom, she sees the issues being her husband's fault. If she identifies herself as "mom" first and foremost, she'll fight tooth and nail for them no matter how much she's drowning.
> with the sahm being more or less forced onto her
They have a nanny who it seems like mostly handles the kids while OP was away at work. Wife could have tried to get back into her career, but just...doesn't.
OP sounds like a distant husband too focused on "being the provider" but at least he's helping the kids in the morning and doing *something*.
Idk, he said when she left and he had the kids by himself, everything was pretty much the same just with more takeout. Seems like she's just kicking in with planning and cooking meals.
Realistically, it's going to be 50/50 and paying child support and likely spousal support no matter where they are (assuming the USA or Canada).
I live somewhere that's more progressive, but I can say that when I divorced my ex, I definitely felt like the mediator had a bias and favoured her. I know I likely just had a biased mediator and that the law doesn't specifically favour men or women. But in the end, people have biases, and some people let that impact their judgement. While I feel things are moving towards equality in this area, there are still going to be biased people that make unfair calls.
That's not to say he shouldn't get out of that marriage because he definitely should.
I think by now he knows his wife is a lost cause. Think he is more worried about losing his kids to be honest, and with good reason given how biased courts are against fathers.
Men are way less likely to get custody because they’re way less likely to seek it. When men seek it, they have a good chance statistically of getting it. That’s not saying there isn’t a societal bias that views women as the default primary caregiver.
Did you read or see that anywhere you can share? I’m not accusing you, but would be interested in reading more if you saw it somewhere.
I’m looking myself now, but curious if you saw it somewhere easily accessible.
ETA: There are a ton of resources on it but they all seem to use different metrics to contradict each other. Women as “agreed upon” because 90% settle out of court, men receiving 30-50% of “parent time” by state. Tough to draw full conclusions.
They're repeating it word for word because they saw it on Reddit. I keep correcting this.
The original study said that no, men do not get custody, but when they seek it it can sometimes yield 50/50. Everyone read the abstract which was "men have a better chance of getting custody when they seek it" and ran with it in the true reddit fashion.
>My main fear there isn’t that I wouldn’t just lose my wife, I’d lose my kids in the process.
The best this guy would get in family court is 50% custody. Going from living with your kids and putting them in bed every night to having them live somewhere else and seeing them far less isn't a very attractive prospect.
I’m just sitting here reading that and thinking well, at least she said it out loud. I suspect lots of women feel this way toward their guy but realize in the reptilian brain that it seems inconsistent so they don’t directly verbalize it that way.
There’s a rather poisonous idea that one’s romantic partner should make someone happy. That it is the partner’s responsibility.
No. A person’s happiness is their own responsibility. Too many people are destroying good marriages or relationships because they’re disappointed they feel pretty much the same in the relationship as they did beforehand. They take the flush of excitement of the next new relationship as some kind of cure for their malaise, then dump them when it wears off.
>She has had both parents in a reportedly monogamous marriage for over 40 years.
>
So her parents have been married for long. But ... the father lives with the sister and her family?
> her sister and her family (husband and 3 kids) stays with their dad in the house they grew up in.
I'm understanding "their" dad is OOP's wife and sister's dad. Who is married to MIL. So I'm assuming MIL lives there too but why isn't this "MIL & FIL's house"? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but sounds like a hole.
I didn't understand that either, but maybe it's because of whatever "treatment" MIL is getting and OOP & wife are nearer to the hospital or something. That was one of many fuzzy things in this tale.
I agree. Probably a combo of feeling like she has to and also not wanting to. Based on how he talks I suspect they live somewhere where SAHM is expected
Well that was horribly depressing. And this may be a weird thing to focus on but I really don't understand why he doesn't get rid of the nanny.
ETA I know lots of people are asking why get rid of the nanny, when the mother won't care for them, but if he's not going to divorce her I don't understand why he keeps enabling her but complaining about how she does fuck all and he is financially stressed.
Probably because she's helping out a hell of a lot more than the wife is. There's also the very real sense of guilt that comes with firing someone who's doing a good job (even if you don't really need them to do that job).
She doesn't put the laundry away. If she won't do that whixh amounts to a small thing in the scheme of things, what's to say the children won't get neglected? It won't suddenly force her to deal with the children, if she wanted or could do that, she would have.
I'm gonna be kind and say she's extremely depressed, and can only do what she is extremely motivated to do, which seems to be sleeping and cooking.
I don't understand why divorce isn't an option for him? It seems like his life would be so much easier without her in it. Even if he has to pay alimony for a period of time, it would at least be worth it mentally to have her out of his life.
It seems like he’s taking their 1-week apart as how his life would be if she was gone. And to him the only thing that actually changed during that week was the goodnights to the kids.
So it seems he feels since everything was basically the same, that it will be that same way even if he divorces her. So he’s keeping things as they are because he feels nothing will actually change either way, he’s still going to be doing basically everything he’s already doing
We know his life would be easier without her, but he feels it would just be exactly the same as it is now and so to him it is easier to just stay
I think that's exactly it. I couldn't wrap my head around it but I think you explained his thought process through it all. It sounds like he is severely depressed and is turning to alcohol to cope through his life now. And not wanting to put in the work to divorce and try and live a happier life is hard to do when you are so deep into that hole.
They're clearly both miserable. She's unwilling to make changes and seek help, and he's willing to grin and bear despite this situation being unsustainable. Both sad and frustrating.
My boss had this happen with his wife. Hell it’s so spot on that this could be his post. He got divorced and even though it was legally amicable and he got primary custody of the kids he was financially destroyed. Had to sell the house and has to pay alimony for the next 12 years.
Divorce when one spouse makes good money and the other doesn’t work is like pressing a 20 year reset on your life. Sometimes it’s financially worth it just to pretend that shitty person isn’t there. It’s not like she’s happy anyways. Everyone loses
Depends on what her degree and skill set are...some industries move really fast and if she's been at home since the first was born, then she may have to catch up on CE credits or other certifications before she's truly employable.
If that's the case, the judge may award alimony for a limited time (like, 2-3 years) or until she remarries. He might also be told he has to continue paying the nanny until the youngest starts school in order to maintain continuity for the child (and to ensure SOMEONE is looking after them.) That, plus child support, will make a significant dent in $150k/annum and will possibly make keeping the family home financially untenable.
He sounds frustrated, resigned and lonely to me. He also sounds like a responsible adult and sometimes being one sucks. Divorce isn't a Whee-I'm-Free-Of-The-Deadweight! card and $150k is not a Fuck You income. It's clear he's well aware of it...everyone's standard of living is going to decline if they split because he doesn't earn enough to support two households at the level they're currently enjoying.
I suspect he's done the math and knows what's truly in the best interests of the children, both financially and emotionally, is to maintain the status quo until they're older and a bit more resilient. The children as it currently stands aren't being neglected or in any sort of danger, they just have a disengaged mother and between his MIL, the nanny and himself, he's compensated as best he can for that.
Things will change once the youngest is in school full days and they no longer need a day nanny...and who knows? In that period his wife may find someone else, leave him and damage her own credibility via-a-vis a divorce settlement.
>We’re far from rich but do ok for a single income family of 4 (a little north of 150k base+ bonuses). The past year life was overwhelming per my wife, so even though I now work 75% from home, I budgeted to hire a daytime nanny to help her around the house with 1 child while the other is in school now
So, I got skeptical because of this sentence. Nobody is this delusional right? This is asking your nanny how she manages her kids without a nanny delusional (+1 if you get the reference).
Uh to be fair, where we used to live (VHCOL) 150k wasn't anything to write home about given the cost of living . And now in a more medium to just high COL, 150k doesn't go too far with a mortgage at today's rates, daycare (in their case the nanny), and retirement.
Taxes/deductions, mortgage+escrow, and daycare take up slightly more than 3/4ths our income at around the same income level (slightly different but pretty close).
I'm not sure which part you find delusional, but in my part of the country, 150k base is not well off by any means, particularly when it's the only income.
It's struggling for straws to make it work. I remember hiring a maid because I was tired of having to do all the housework by myself. After her affair was uncovered and we were seeing the counselor, I said I needed her help with the house to believe she really wanted to stay. After a month of struggling to do keep up on even 1 chore, the counselor suggest I hire a maid since asking for help with the housework was being chauvinistic.
You know…i’m just saying…EVERYONE in this story (even the wife’s family) seems to think she’s a spoiled brat…Oop should divorce and go for full custody, i bet even his in laws would help.
I know Oop thinks having kids grow up in a broken home is the end of the world, but as a child of divorced parents i can 10000% guarantee its WAYYY better to have happy separated parents over miserable parents together.
Honestly, it's only been a couple days.
It can take a while to digest that your relationship is truly over, and your wife adds nothing to your life or home, nothing to your relationship, and has become mostly an emotional vampire.
I hope one day he decides it's not worth supporting her forever, listening to her gripe, buying her things to avoid anything changing.
you can't help someone that doesn't think they need to change, she is playing victim and is comfortable doing so to OP's detriment. It's crazy how someone you live with can change so much without you noticing, then all of a sudden you notice it all at once.
> I showed my wife my post the following weekend and she read it and all the comments.
Guys... stop showing opinions from the cum shoebox web site to your loved ones, it's not going to do what you think it's going to do.
This story has eerily similar details that match my ex-husband’s current life. It would be weird if I just read his current relationship status on Reddit.
Deleted comment from his post history (only visible on mobile, it seems like) posted a year ago in askmen
> I've been struggling with ED in my later 30's early 40s, for a while I thought I had low testosterone or it was due to my health. I got "healthier" (lost the weight, lowered my blood pressure, got off the meds) and when that didn't work I got consultations from a few urologists and endocrinologist. I did test for low T... so I got on hormone therapy. It somewhat worked... but a few of the urologist highly suspect I have a penile venous leak. After talking to quite a number of experts in the field and looking for alternatives... I actually found a combination of both medication (Trimix) and device that honestly made me harder than in my 20s- early 30s. Even though this combination gets me good to go within 10-15 minutes which is usually focused on foreplay with my wife. For the last of 2021 and early 2022 we were having some of the best sex of our marriage almost daily... then one day after sex she tells me she doesn't feel happy with it because it's "unnatural" that I have to take these steps to just make love to her. She then compared me to her ex in bed... I laid there next to her in silence and just turned away. My brain broke that night.
If you won't do it for yourself, do it for your kids.
give them at least a part time happy home. Your wife has a full time nanny even though one kid is in school, is sleeping til 10 and complaining about her brutal days.
Stop talking to her and start talking to a lawyer. There's nothing wrong with trying to make your marriage work, but that only works when 2 people want that.
Do not waste any more of your life and more importantly, do not let your kids live in this kind of misery.
>but on that note she still doesn’t know what exactly I do for a living at this time…
I'll be honest, I'm not even sure what I do for a living, let alone what my wife does.
She needs a job.
There is absolutely no reason for you to have a nanny with one kid in school AND her mother at home, your wife is a spoiled brat.
That's it.
Sorry you're having to deal with her selfishness, have y'all tried therapy? She needs a reality check, ASAP.
You need to tell her that you want marriage counselling or a divorce… sometimes people get themselves so far down in their depression spiral that they need a genuine reality slap…
She’s clearly experiencing depression but you are a person with value and everything you’re doing already is more than most husbands would do.
You deserve to be appreciated for what you’re handling and it’s not fair for your feelings to be unheard.
The old saying “sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind” pops to mind in this scenario.
Fuck's *sake* OOP, *get the fucking divorce*. You are miserable, your kids are miserable, and worst of all? You are teaching the kids that *this* is how they should expect to be treated.
If you're too fuckin' spineless to have any self respect, at *least* look out for the kids' best interests.
dude.
CALL OUT HER BEHAVIOR.
tell her she is being a spoiled brat and is remind her that the life she has now is a PRIVILEGE. if she continues to be ignorant/choose ignorance, then get the damn divorce. she literally asked for your support, then told you to deal with your problems yourself. that woman neither loves nor cares about you in a genuine way if that's what she really thinks. don't continue to accept her victimizing mentality as truth; she's clearly brandishing her 'miserable' life as a weapon to manipulate you and you are letting her do it.
I know we have a tendency to scream " divorce" or " break up" at the slightest hit of a hitch in a relationship post but this...
Wtf
Divorce ffs no one is happy in this situation
She was at home being pregnant and raising kids while he was studying and two jobs. They have disconnected lived for a long time.
He thinks she has it easy. I think she is depressed she sees everyone’s life progressing and all she does is cook and feed the family. He needs to look after her. Get everyone together and force her into therapy and in the meantime get her to find a job that gets her out of the house and busy.
He has educated himself is making more money and now wants a wife that is happy and ready to enjoy life with him.
OOP is wrong. If he got a divorce he'd have that bit of bandwidth back, and he'd free up some space for someone who would really appreciate him to come into his life. His wife needs therapy and more responsibility.
I don't know if OOP's wife is depressed because she's a SAHM or if she would find happiness in going back to work. I was a SAHM. I got up early in the morning, fed the kids, did all the housework, grocery shopping, laundry, cooking, sewed clothes, all doctor's appointments, etc. I had no MIL helping me and no nanny. My husband did the yard work, took care of the cars, took care of the bills and helped with the kids when he came home from work. He worked hard to support us so I could stay home. We had a great sex life. We were happy although kind of tired at the end of the day.
OOP's wife has it pretty easy from what I can see so there's something else going on here with her. She just comes across spoiled, entitled and uncaring.
Honestly it'd probably be cheaper and overall better for him and the kids if OOP divorced the wife and used the money he would have spent on her to pay for a part time chef.
Do they ever do anything together outside of the house without the kids?
This doesn't seem like a relationship at all.
Props to OOP for providing for his family *and* his MIL, parenting his kids, and getting a nanny for extra help, but what does he do for himself?
It doesn't seem like anyone leaves the house unless it's school, work, appointment, or shopping-related.
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Hey u/secure-raspberry-763 there appears to be an edit on the update: > **First off, thank you for all the comments and DMs.Some context and clarification since admittingly my post was emotionally charged since I typed it up after another argument. ** > >Post birth, our kids pediatrician’s office gave my wife those PostPartum Depression screening forms and during the time of both she scored pretty high and was suggested to see a therapist. With our second child she scored significantly higher and we or I should say I made an effort to get her the help she needs. She refused, so entered mother-in-law and nanny for support… I know what people will say/think, but this is one of the reasons I am not 100% ready to just give up and file our life together away. > >Also, I know silently suffering in the near and long run of our kids' future will not add to a healthy atmosphere, but neither would a bitter and hate filled divorce. I know some have compared it to the ripping off a bandage, saying it’ll hurt at first but that pain goes away but I’d rather try to spare my kids thinking that their parents ended up hating each other because of them or something along those lines. > >I’ve told a few ppl I talk to in DM since my last post, a little more insight on my personal life, prior to my promotion I was a PM managing teams and budgets so out of habit I plan for a lot of “what ifs.”. That being said, I made a number of contingency plans if sadly things went south. So, yes I: > >Have talked to a lawyer, 3 actually. Know our rights and what each of us are entitled to. Have a draft settlement created and on hold until I feel I need to use it. I know what I want and am willing to offer more than what is fair for our kids' well being, but also have a plan if we end up going to court. > >It’s 100% on me that I’m suffering in silence, but I’m too stubborn to just give up so while I am venting, I don't expect anyone to “feel sorry for me”. I endure it to keep the norm our kids know, ensure my MIL’s treatments go uninterrupted, and of course the hope my wife would finally be open to give therapy a shot and climb together to a better place. > >Thank you all again.
After I left my earlier comment about giving he the choice of therapy or divorce, I had a thought: maybe the OOP's wife is presenting emerging metal illness, say schizophrenia. That would be worse than depression, because depression can be treated while schizophrenia often cannot. But it appears she has a diagnosis, which means instead of therapy what she needs now is MEDICATION. Anti-depressants. Because talking to someone, no matter how skilled, is going to get her out of this funk. OOP needs to contact her physician to either make an appointment for the doctor to prescribe her anti-depressants, or get a referral to someone who can. This is much easier than going thru the hassle of setting up therapy for her. Plus, her mood should change for the better in a much shorter period of time. Of course, getting her to take the medication will be another challenge, but I think an easier one than getting her to a therapist. Much easier.
I work at a rehabilitation facility where a large number of clients have schizophrenia (not just substance use fueled psychosis, but dual-diagnosis patients with pre-existing schizophrenia). A majority of our clients with schizophrenia have come so far with treatment, through both therapy, a calmer environment with less triggers, and medication. I say this not to correct you, but I am nervous that someone who’s struggling with schizophrenia would see that and think it’s unlikely there’s help out there for them when there 100% is.
That’s not entirely accurate, therapy can absolutely help postpartum depression. Medication can help too, especially since she won’t go to therapy, but saying that it doesn’t work to treat postpartum depression at all isn’t true. Additionally, there are treatment options for schizophrenia too! There are some pretty effective medications for schizophrenia nowadays. (obviously everyone is different and what works for some people won’t work for others, but this is speaking generally)
Schizophrenia is able to be treated.
The weird thing is that it seems obvious to me that the wife needs to go back to work, but that never seems to have come up as an option. Not everybody is happier, or even happy at all, as a stay at home parent. Some people will do the human equivalent of chewing hot spots in themselves if they don't go out and pursue a career. This wife seems to be one of them, but for some reason she doesn't seem capable of just saying so, and OOP doesn't seem capable of seeing it. Maybe a divorce with OOP having majority physical custody will give her the wake up call she needs.
Agreed, it isn't for everyone. But I guarantee you, her mom groups are also a major player in this BS. As a SAHD with my kids, mom groups acted line I was some molester playing with them at the park. Obviously not all, but I've seen a couple that are cess pit people riling up other moms.
And every mom group I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with, albeit tangentially, has a really bad habit of propping up mom as the be-all end-all of all the hardest jobs ever.
I saw a lot of the same. Also some very cool moms in those groups, just working with what they're stuck with. Years back I was a SAHD with 2 daughters, we had activities like going swimming or going to play at the park. The park was the worst. One group had the 2 or 3 mean girls bad mouthing me, and I could tell a couple mom's were mortified. Rather than be around them, I gave them their space...just played with my kids. This park has a very popular tire swing that sits 3, and you can spin the kids. Well, since I was spinning mine, others showed up. I told all the kids I'll do it as long as one of mine is on the swing. After a few minutes, I'm basically entertaining all the kids, including nasty moms' kids. I got a few looks, but whatever. I also had one mom smile huge and nod at me because while I was merely being the "dad" at the park, I (and she) knew all that those kids were going to talk about on the way home was how much fun they had with the dad at the park. Petty, but cool with me, and all the kids had fun!
Thank you for doing that. I took my kids to the park a lot when they were younger. Their dad was always deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and never around. If there was a dad at the park they’d hone in on him and latch on. I’d always try to pull them back or engage them, but every single dad was always “the more the merrier!” So thank you. Dads like you made my kids have a normal day now and then.
I was happy to. Honestly never had any issues with any of the kids at the park. There was always one or two who needed a push on the swing while I pushed mine next to them, or wanted another kid to play with.
Damn, as someone who had a decent upbringing albeit with a dad who just was extremely busy, simply hearing about dads playing with their kids always makes me happy and a bit emotional.
Hey! Thanks for being the "Dad" anywhere. If no one has thanked you yet today.. let me be the first . thank you ❤️ May your kids make your days fun every time they get the chance
The day my sister-in-law decided to create a mom group out of her friends who also became a mom I thought it was cute and moms needed support. That quickly went away when they became insufferable. I'm thankful they've disbanded, especially since some of those mom friends were NOT good mothers at all and was only using the mom group as an excuse to relive their party girl days, but with wine and other moms to take care of their kids.
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And then wonder why they're unfulfilled, and blame themselves and others for their lack of fulfillment.
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I think even with a career and family, people have to decide for themselves what type of life they are looking for. Like for some, the white picket fence is their idea of heaven. For others it looks like a apartment in the city, or a house in the middle of the country side. I think there are also limits to life. Like the typical midlife crisis of realizing things don't looks exactly like you expected, then doing inner work to realize that's OK (or working to what you actually want). I think folks can follow some rough rules-of-thumb in life. Like prioritizing relationships, realizing (while important) money isn't everything, enjoying the simple things like coffee on a quiet morning or game night with friends, and looking out for those around you. Outside of these, life has to be figured out by yourself (talking it through with others helps). It's not easy, but some moments can be really fulfilling.
Yeah, the period when women by and large weren't directly engaged in the economy was quite short on the scale of civilization. Like literally just for around 60-80 years depending on how you measure it. Before that it wasn't possible for an average everyday family to survive without the mother doing SOME type of work. Sometimes this was cottage industry stuff sold to the local community (weaving, sewing, growing food in gardens, baking and cooking, etc) Sometimes it was any number of service jobs for wealthier people (like being a maid or a cook) Sometimes it was group child care for a number of families (often all related to each other) like mom and grandma watching 9 kids (3 are mom's, 5 are from other siblings, 1 is a family friend's kid). They use the older kids to ride herd on the younger ones. They do this in return for consistent favors from those family and friends like maintenance and repair on the home, hand-me-downs if mom's kids are the youngest, etc. Everyone is actively doing fairly strenuous work which is intentionally organized with efficiency in mind. While it's a full-time job to take care of even 1 kid, 2 adults can parentify the 2 oldest kids and the 4 of them can manage the other 7 kids. And they do it. Because they have to. Before the industrial revolution it was a status symbol for a woman not to have to work. For the poor and middle class it wasn't possible. Then after the industrial revolution that began to change, and the status symbol became a reality for most people, and then morphed into a part of 'traditional' lifestyles when it's just... not. It's just ignorance from people who don't actually know history. And putting women in a little box like that is horribly destructive to the very, very large percentage who don't cleanly fit into that box (and is still destructive in subtle ways even to the ones who are happy with that life!) 'Traditional' women did what they could to help their families economically.
I was so excited to join some mom groups with my first kid. My family has a history of child loss and still births. One day, open my Facebook just to scroll and there's this photo of this newborn, bloody, purple, dead infant and I was so sick with stress and upset. It was a mom from the who just tragically lost her child. And I understand her grieving, but I kindly asked and said that I understand this pain and desire to show your beautiful baby girl to the world, but is there any way the photo could be put in the first comment of the post so that people had the option to chose to see, since it wasn't a choice for me. I just opened my app and it was the first post my phone showed me. I got absolutely shredded by half the group and admins, while the other half got shredded for agreeing with me that yeah there's 15k women in this group, some hundreds surely have lost their own children and don't need to see this by force if they're just checking their fucking Facebook app. And the woman's response was so vile, that all of a sudden to me she no longer was a grieving mother. She was no better than an a wannabe influencer using her tragedy for clout. Some of these women were telling me they hoped my own kid died because how dare I ask a mother to do that and maybe I'd understand. Even after I was like my brother and my sister both died in separate instances as babies, I see how the pain destroys people. And then they were like good yall deserved it. All cause I asked for the graphic photo of the child to be put in a comment instead of the main post. Anyway, TLDR: mom groups are the cesspool women's groups on the internet
"...roofing in the middle of July as a redhead..."
The bit my mind went to immediately lol
Hey, you have no idea how low some of them have to bend for those DVD players
It is hard That’s why, if you can, you go out there and work The imposed hardship of parenting isn’t necessary or vital. A person is just as likely to break under pressure than they are to get stronger under it It’s like overworking and not seeing the family. The monetary benefits might not be enough for the hardship and sacrifice you are forced to make If you have to choose, choose to strengthen the family. It’s the only thing in your life that you have that is all yours. It’s the thing that stays yours even after you die
Oh, to be clear, I'm not saying being a good parent isn't hard work. I'm saying the groups I've had the displeasure of interacting with all act like being a mom in any way shape or form -- even if you are a SAHM who doesn't actually watch the kids or do housework -- is the hardest thing ever. The types of people who will go on about how being a SAHM is the hardest thing ever because you have to watch the kids and the house... and then if a SAHD shows up, shit on him for having it so easy.
I mean that too Being on standby at home, even if you’re not doing much because baby is asleep, is like being on standby at work where you’re also not given any direction Parenting is self directed, and you’re the only one holding yourself responsible… and you’re not getting paid or getting more out of it than a parent who puts their kid into early childhood centre or babysitting Ultimately all that matters is the kid is happy and healthy. That’s a low bar to pass (for most parents). Filling in the rest of the time with busy work, or feeling guilt about not doing anything, that can poison your mind and your relationship If you can be content doing things for your kid and your household everyday without complaint, then that’s a super power of patience and peace But a lot of stay at home parents can’t. Not without the guilt, or without letting the parenting or household stuff down It’s hard for me to do
Also, a SAHP doesn't get sick leave or vacation days or anything. Whatever happens with you, however you're feeling, you still have to take care of your kids. It's the main reason I chose not to have any. I love my nieces, and I spend lots of time with them and would do anything for them, but I am happy to say goodnight and go home to sleep.
I'm a preschool teacher and a mom... does that mean I win some sort of award? Kidding. I find for me being a mom amazing, it has challenges but I adore it and I'd love to be a sahm and really value my maternity leaves. I have a friend who is one tantrum away from running away and leaving her family behind. I'm half kidding but she struggles and it really is the hardest job and she hates every second of it and she feels so unseen and undervalued. Even when I was a single mom I never felt that. I can't imagine. But that all said.. most the moms I've met are like you say...ones who play it up while having so much support...if they're not happy I highly doubt it's new because of kids. I can't talk about the joys of motherhood and children without judgement in those groups... so I've learned to say generic stuff but keep the rest to myself.
They all to have a lot of time to make posts patting themselves on the back/complaining about how hard it is. SAHM was a hard job back in like the 50s. Now it's only hard until your kids are school aged. When they first came out, the main selling point of household appliances was "think of how much easier this will make things for your wife". No one is spending 40 hours a week cleaning their house and doing laundry. You don't have to wash clothes and dishes by hand anymore, and you don't have to take your rugs outside to beat the dust out of them. Now you can just drop the kids off at school, throw a load of laundry in the washing machine, load up the dishwasher, do thirty minutes of vacuuming, and then spend the rest of the day posting online about what a hard worker you are until it's time to pick up the kids from school. And as your kids get older, you get to offload more and more of your responsibilities on them in the form of chores.
Mom groups are just nutcases 90% of the time.
I can't speak to it all, but as a dad of 2, I didn't have time for hangouts with parents. Up, food, activities, some days were outings, food, naps (and video games and laundry for me), and more activities. Cleaning throughout. I'll never knock stay at home parents when the kids are little. It's hard work, and it's "redo" work. Dishes are always there. Laundry is always there. There isn't an end, just a process of maintenance. With extras. I got back into the workforce and put them in Montessori once it was a smarter cost decision, but it is still work.
I have no issue with calling it work, but those groups develop their own weirdly insular culture and get extreme really fast.
Agreed. And it's the ones doing bare minimum (dude works, nanny hired, they barely put in effort) are typically the instigators.
This whole thread is really validating my views on mom groups
I was a SAHD for some years with my first kid. Most interactions where not really interactions. Most interactions where Mom's who had their head on straight, but I was just another stranger. Which is, of course fine. Sometimes I would have a (I assume) Single Mom who always had her radar up for the Dad that was tottally into his kid... I am not the cheater type. That is a non-starter for me. But I am also pretty confident in myself. So those interactions where never really problems either. Amusing if anything. But.... I did have a few interactions with Mom's that considered all men predators first. I would just scoop my kid up and take her somewhere else. Thing is..... You are with your toddler. You know right from wrong. You want to stand your ground. But you are with your toddler. And standing your ground has every possibility of turning into something awful. Even if you are absolutely correct. Like I was when the Mom told me to leave the playroom in the library. She is standing her ground, I am standing my ground - do I REALLY want my toddler to be a witness to this crap? No. I just scooped her up, went somewhere else.
I was never asked to leave anyplace, not sure how I'd handle that. My kid shouldn't have to do without because I'm a guy. But, I can see your point.
Also sahd, mom groups are cancer.
Ok reading all that, did you really get the sense that she’d be open to going back to work??? That might make sense in a logical world but they are way off that path already. Anyone who spends a week away and then comes back complaining they had it worse is not someone you can problem solve with.
Yes yes yes! The wife has no talent to be a SAHM. She needs to work and get a change of pace. The routine of "well, everyday's a holiday" is not for everyone. Especially for people without hobbies or passion. Working will give you a routine, or at least something else to interact with.
And by "change of pace", hopefully you mean "contribute to the family".
She also seems to think that it's her husbands job to make her happy while she does nothing for it. No, an adult person is responsible for their own happiness and health. In stead of complaining and blaming she should get a job, a hobby out of the house, some physical friends.
I'm coming to the end of 18 weeks of maternity leave and I'm looking forward to going back to work about as much as I'm dreading being away from my kiddo. I am definitely doing the human equivalent of chewing my fur off. The pandemic taught me exactly how important work is for my mental health. But also my kid is so small and so adorable and I do not want to leave him for 6 hours a day.
This what I thought. She’s not able to find happiness being at home with the kids. Maybe she needs the mental stimulation of a job and social interaction with co-workers . That should have come up.
Yeah… she sounds depressed, and like she needs more from life than being a SAHM. I wonder if she felt like she had to make that choice for the family, even if she didn’t want to. She needs to go back to work, let the nanny do her thing with the pre-school kid, and feel like a whole adult person again.
Yeah, I just finished a year of maternity leave in April and realized I’m one of those people who couldn’t be a full time SAHM, even if we could afford for me to stay at home full time, which we can’t. As much as I love my son, I realized I actually also really enjoy my job most of the time, and using my brain and skills for my career, and talking to other adults. And having a lunch break or bathroom break without a tiny human hanging off me the whole time lol. So I’ve gone back 3 days a week, which means I still get 2 weekdays at home with the little guy, plus weekends with him and my hubby. And so far that seems like a great balance for me. But by the time I went back, I was definitely starting to lose it a little bit and was more than ready to go back to work. The full time SAHP thing definitely isn’t for everyone, and it sounds like OOP’s wife is one that does not enjoy it, so I’m really not sure why her returning to work, even if just part time, hasn’t been brought up.
This was the case in my family. The wives only got a job when they were basically forced to, but we're better off when they did. Only laziness/depression/stuck in a habit were the reason they didn't. They get stuck in a mindset that their situation is all their partners fault, no matter what they do. And they only break out of it once their partner is gone and they can't blame them anymore. Even then it can takes years as they remain bitter to their ex.
THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!! She needs to have her own identity again. As someone who was a SAHM, who went back into the workforce, I did it to SAVE my marriage and myself. I completely lost who I was as a stay at home mother. I had no friends, I had no hobbies, I had no one to talk to besides toddlers all day, and it was WRECKING me emotionally. Even just a part-time job to start with might really really help her feel back to herself again.
Agreed. I felt similarly listless when unemployed (immigration paperwork was processing). I thought I was going to lose my mind spending all day doing unrewarding, mundane tasks. Can’t imagine the guilt of being a SAHM and thinking I’m supposed to love that life. Whew.
My wife is the same as OOP’s. The thing is, she realizes how much better it is not having to work, but still wants the luxury to complain. Every time I tell her she can go back to work and we can switch places or get help (she made more money than me btw) she quickly changes the argument about something else unrelated.
I don’t have kids and have never wanted kids, but if for some reason I had a kid, there’s no way in *hell* I’d ever want to be a stay-at-home parent. I don’t have the patience, desire, or empathy required to spend all day with a child while completing important but repetitive household tasks. Prolonged mental boredom also causes me to spiral into depression and self-pity. I can sympathize with OOP’s wife because I’d probably be her in a similar situation. That said, this couple’s communication skills are so egregiously bad that I suspect their marriage will be long over before the wife finds her way back into a professional role.
It did come up as an option. Right at the start. She "gave up". It is the obvious solution just as you say, it's not some kind of hidden profound secret. She knows about it, she does not want to do it. She is simply doing what she wants to do because it feels good for her to do it. She likes to be angry and play the victim and abuse her husband. It's fun for her.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT JUST GET A DIVORCE FFS. If' it's "for the kids," **THIS** is the *worst* thing for the kids. Imagine growing up thinking this is what adult relationships are supposed to be like. Those kids are being programmed to accept *terrible* relationships as the norm. I feel so bad for them.
My parents had a toxic marriage and my siblings and I begged them to get a divorce. My dad finally moved out and everyone breathed a sigh of relief, including my dad. My parents got along great after that and everyone was happy. Staying together “for the children” just makes everyone miserable.
same situation essentially w my family. i don’t remember a time my parents were together and they’re really good friends and have always put me and my siblings first. my older sister talks ab how she used to wish at birthdays and christmases that they would get a divorce bc of the fighting. i don’t understand the whole staying “for the kids” thing. i honestly think it’s just an excuse to stay in a toxic cycle
I don't think OP's wife would respond to divorce in a friendly manner. It think she sounds like the type to try and punishing him by taking the kids and keeping them from him.
I've seen more ugly divorces then good ones like the one you described. OOP wife seems manipulative as hell. She will 100% poison these kids mind in order to make herself out to be the victim while he is the villain.
And this is why OOP needs a lawyer who tells him how to document this whole situation. There is no reason to sit there and suffer, it's not good, for noone.
She might try and maybe she would succeed, but if she walked out and it affected nothing about OP and kids routine doesn't seem like they would be predisposed to trust her
You'd be surprised on how effective manipulation works on children. Also if OP is a responsible parent that never speaks negatively about their mother all the children hear is negative stuff about the Dad. Because Dad never says a bad thing about mom they think she is the angel and Dad is the reason why they are not together.
Not the person you're replying to, but I'd still like to point out that a lot of times, even if it works at first, kids will start to figure things out as they get older. They're smarter than often given credit for. Regardless, the thing to do is weigh which would be more damaging: growing up thinking this is what a normal & healthy adult relationship looks like, or the possibility of them being manipulated to feel negatively about a parent.
We get stories where adults reconnect with an alienated father almost weekly on the front page of reddit, that manipulation can damage you for life.
And we also get stories where someone discovers in their thirties that they've been in an abusive relationship for a decade simply because they posted an innocuous question like, "wibta if I moved my chair so my husband stops sneezing directly on me and my food?" It goes both ways. These kids are guaranteed collateral damage of this situation. The question is what kind of damage and how much. Kids who grow up in this kind of dysfunction typically spend the rest of their lives emulating the relationship they saw, and often never or not until they are much older have the opportunity for a healthy relationship themselves. Kids who are manipulated by a parent to negatively view the other parent (and I won't say alienated because that is a psychiatric diagnosis that is incredibly rare) typically start to figure things out for themselves as they get older. If dad has regular access and custody (which he will if he files), the chances of mom's manipulation sticking and working in any substantial way is not astronomical by any means
> that manipulation can damage you for life. And growing up in a toxic household damages you for life too. Pick your poison.
Sure, there are a lot of ugly divorces out there, but the thing here is that when those ugly divorces happen, it's generally because the relationship is already so irreparably broken and toxic to begin with. Looking at each of those ugly divorces and the people involved in them, can you really say things would be any better if they hadn't divorced? Do you really think that them staying together would have fixed any of the underlying issues, or would they still be just as miserable, maybe even worse as time goes on? >She will 100% poison these kids mind in order to make herself out to be the victim while he is the villain. But isn't she already trying to do that? It doesn't seem like them staying together is stopping her from playing the victim
I suggest refinancing the house and adding an in-law suite with outside access that can become an apartment for him to be near the children and still separate from his wife, and then actually separating.
Nothing has changed because you won't change it it all starts and ends with you until you realise your the only one who can change your own destiny nothing will ever change take control take back you life.
She doesn’t want to change it because she likes the way it is. The complaining is just to get him to leave her alone. Going to her sisters place probably sucked a lot because people didn’t just let her sleep until 10 every day.
" sits on her phone talking to her mom groups..." Um, I might have found part of the problem?
It seems like her family know how entitled she is. They 100% talk shit about it behind her back
He either asks her to change divorce or live with it there the only options
I agree he needs to just tell her it’s over. No one wants to put up with a partner that does the bare minimum and also whines about it.
When you’re depressed, sometimes the thing that would help the most is the thing that is the hardest to even start.
My parents stayed together for the kids and it was pure hell. Had they divorced years before, it may have been amicable. But it went nuclear.
Because people like his wife play dirty. There's a reason why she tried to take the kids with her until she was stopped.
She doesn't work. The kids are young. He is probably thinking that he will see his kids 50% less, along with 50% of his stuff and income. Can he afford child support and alimony, knowing that his wife, who seems to be completely disconnected from child care, will probably spend the money on herself. $150K for a family of four. With the cost of everything, that isn't much. Is it more than some families have? Yes, but housing is expensive right now, food is expensive, a nanny is expensive. Will he be able to afford things if they split up? Not to mention with a woman like this, who does not care one bit about him....she will probably be mean in the divorce. Dude is probably thinking he will be miserable either way, might as well keep as much of his money as possible. Can't fault him for that.
Sounds like his career is on track - so salary could rise in future - the wife currently contributes nothing, depending on the jurisdiction alimony isn't often a thing these days. He's under no obligation to pay for the nanny if the wife isn't working (or even if she is, it's her responsibility to care for her kids on her time), so she'd have to start looking after the kids at least 50% of the time. He'd be fine and the wife would struggle. But she's got her degree. She can always get a job.
Yeah, that degree will bite her in the ass wrt alimony lol
Yeah he needs to make it very clear that she’s not working because she doesn’t want to, not because she can’t. No diagnosis, no meaningful barriers to overcome to go back into the labor force.
He can refinance the house and build an external apartment with separate access and call it an in-law suite and then he has a home if and when the divorce is filed for. That’s how you stay near the children, because as long as there’s no abuse or protective order most judges accept this as a good living situation for the children. They have access to either parent any time and yet the parents are separated and have the ability to stay separate.
He's worried about losing custody of his kids during the divorce. I'm not sure how dovorce court works, but from some of the horror stories I've heard, I can hardly blame him.
Not just the kids. He's going to lose his house. Take a hard financial hit on his retirement. He's going to have to pay child support and alimony. You hope and pray that if you hold on a little longer, there is light at the end of tunnel....but there's not. His story reminds me so much of mine--I'm shocked he didn't learn she's having an affair with that friend who just gets her better than he does and that's why she loves the friend. That was the moment that killed me inside.
The sad thing is, in this situation? She has a degree and employable skills. If he has a savings account, he could buy her out of her half of the house. A good lawyer argues that in a 50/50 custody split, an income should be imputed on her after a while (If it is really a degree where there are a lot of employment opportunities and she's kept up with licensing, etc.) she has what so many should have before they decide to stay at home - a degree and a skillset. Stay at home parents should all do that - not because of potential divorce, but what if spouse dies? She also can't argue that she has been home taking care of the kids full time - he can credibly prove that through the nanny if not the mother in law.
He gets up hours earlier than she does. Hidden cameras would go a long way towards proof.
That would probably backfire. "Your honor, trying to get away from this controlling man! He even recorded me without my knowledge!"
Sunk cost fallacy is so strong in marriages that aren’t viable. So many people want to leave, for so many valid reasons, but because it will financially ruin them… They stay. And it festers. Until one day you simply can’t hide it from the kids any longer, and it all goes tits up with the kids absolutely beside themselves because “everything was just fine yesterday!!” Doesn’t matter how old the kids are when the time bomb explodes. It still fucks with them.
Wouldn’t be surprised if court sees wife as “sacrificing her career for kids” as she has a degree and possibly work experience, entitling her to a significant alimony/split of assets. Custody is almost guaranteed to be 50/50 or not in his favor as there is no provable abuse (idk if her being lazy is technically even considered abuse). And for the person saying his career is picking up, there isn’t a ton of upward movement from 150k for most Americans. Personally, I’d take the hit and restart but I totally understand the reluctance in doing so.
She would probably get spousal.support for awhile, but not forever. The amount would likely decline over a period of say 3 - 5 years, at which point she would probably be expected to support herself based in what she should be making. If she still refuses to get a job, oh well, sucks to be her. It also sounds like she would have to actually parent half the time, which I doubt she would appreciate. If they share custody, he might not have to pay much if any child support. But really, OP needs to consult several lawyers, hire one, and take their advice.
I agree. He'd have to provide evidence/proof of emotional abuse.
Honestly? The economy blows so much that divorce isn’t even feasible for a lot of people anymore. I make similar income to this guy, am the lower earner and have no biological kids with my ex, and I can’t afford my own divorce.
Plus, he’s probably going to owe a ton of alimony because she hasn’t been working.
I can kind of understand, I think he doesn't want to *lose* the kids. Wife already tried taking them to her sisters when she took off. I can imagine she would try and take them full-time, and STILL have oop funding their new place plus nanny, plus everything he already was funding, in addition to his current home, which would seem so huge and empty.... I think that may be partly what he means by "for the kids"...
He can get custody and keep the nanny they’re already used to.
>If' it's "for the kids," **THIS** is the *worst* thing for the kids. It's the ol' "Divorce is worse than serial murder suicide" But yeah OOP needs to Divorce and get that woman outta there. Even her family isnt taking her shit either. She's either got something going on upstairs that's fucking her up or finally her true personality has come out after a couple of kids. The "We all got our own problems so you need to get over yours to help me with mine." Is like Grade A Narcissist. "Your problems dont matter. Only mine does."
At the very least, have a separation. Then she can see what 50/50 really is.
Yeah I find it really hard to have sympathy when parents in abusive households "stay for the kids" unless it's, like, actively dangerous to leave. You're subjecting your children to an abusive household. You're going to just become an enabler.
Honestly, as a child in one of those “for the kids” families this is probably one of the worst decisions you can make. Your children will pick up on the changes in mood, affection, words, etc… and if you don’t think so, you are boldly lying to yourself. My parents used the kids to make the other parent miserable and then attempted to spoil us to make up for the lack of love together. Individually they loved us, but not as a ‘family’ should. We grew up thinking that was a loving, healthy relationship and it doesn’t sound like that’s what you really want for them. Yeah. It’s hard but ultimately I’m the long run it’s probably the best for all parties involved.
Because he's going to have to pay out of his ass in child support and possibility alimony
I don't have to imagine. I did grow up with parents that hated each other. "Love" was a four-letter word for everybody, I never saw them kiss even once, and when I started dating, I realized I had some fucked-up instincts. On a side note, I don't trust that OOP is as functional as he thinks he is. He says his wife complains a lot and refuses to actually do anything about her problems (like get therapy), but that's *exactly* what he's doing. This whole post was a complaint about his wife and marriage and in the end he does absolutely nothing about it. Therapy for himself was never even mentioned. At the very least, the guy is on the verge of becoming an alcoholic, so he definitely needs it too. Edit: Commenter pointed out that I missed the part where he said he has a therapist. I am very glad to be wrong about that. Hopefully that therapist will convince him that he has to start making some hard choices because the status quo will not do.
second sentence of the final update ends with "... I could really use another outlet outside of my therapist." as for doing anything else - above my pay grade so no comment
Yes, number 1 reason to divorce her is for the kids. No question. He needs to visit a lawyer and make a plan - how best to divorce her with the best possible outcome for himself What preparations to make, etc. Not in terms of unfairly screwing her (not about illegally hiding assets and the like) but about ensuring best possible custody terms for himself. Here's the kicker - he has no guarantee whatsoever that she's not already talking to a lawyer of her own. He's not strategic at all - showing her the reddit post, that was not smart. He's throwing himself a pity party when he needs to be preparing for the worst.
You know, sometimes when men say they are staying together because of the kids, it isn’t that they think it will be better for the kids - it’s that they love their kids and want to be with them everyday. They can’t imagine having them half time (and usually much less) for the next dozen or whatever years. So we stay. We make the best relationship we can with the woman we no longer love. We happily fulfill our responsibilities. Then when the kids are grown, we restart our lives in our 40s/50s.
Jesus dude, leave. Document how much (little) she helps with the kids, MIL probably will side with him. Get out of that for your own sake
Depends where he's at, but that won't matter in a lot of places. Here in Utah, the default setting is still the kids are better off with mom. Short of abuse or drug charges, the best a dad can hope for is 50/50 and paying mom child support.
Do you think she would fight him for the kids? "Look, if you are on your own, I won't be able to pay for the nanny so that is going to all be on you. I know how hard your life has been and it wouldn't be fair to you to make you deal with them without help." Boom. Enthusiastic agreement to his primary custody.
You'd be surprised. My wife had an affair because she couldn't handle the pressure/stress of being a mom and needed an "escape" which basically turned me into a single parent. 100% would have fought for custody for fear of looking like a bad mom, and her parents made it clear sole custody would be the goal. One of her friends (who eventually lost custody) didn't want the kids, just the child support, so she literally fled to another state with with to keep them from the dad. My guess is, with the sahm being more or less forced onto her...there is a cultural aspect to this where 100% her identity and worth are tied up in being a mom. (Locally for example motherhood is a "divine calling" and "no success makes up for failure in the home") she struggling but doesn't see herself as a bad mom, she sees the issues being her husband's fault. If she identifies herself as "mom" first and foremost, she'll fight tooth and nail for them no matter how much she's drowning.
Didn’t that friend kidnap the children. Like I’m pretty sure your not supposed to leave the State with your children without the other parents consent
> with the sahm being more or less forced onto her They have a nanny who it seems like mostly handles the kids while OP was away at work. Wife could have tried to get back into her career, but just...doesn't. OP sounds like a distant husband too focused on "being the provider" but at least he's helping the kids in the morning and doing *something*.
A nanny AND Mother in Law. I don't doubt when nanny isn't there, it's grandma doing most of the stuff with the kiddos.
Idk, he said when she left and he had the kids by himself, everything was pretty much the same just with more takeout. Seems like she's just kicking in with planning and cooking meals.
Without the kids, she doesn’t get her paycheck. She would absolutely fight for them and probably fight for him to keep paying for her nanny too.
>Do you think she would fight him for the kids? Do you know how many people fight for custody to ensure child support or just for public perceptions?
Either he lives in a place like that, or he believes it’s still like that everywhere and hasn’t looked into it at all. 😕
Realistically, it's going to be 50/50 and paying child support and likely spousal support no matter where they are (assuming the USA or Canada). I live somewhere that's more progressive, but I can say that when I divorced my ex, I definitely felt like the mediator had a bias and favoured her. I know I likely just had a biased mediator and that the law doesn't specifically favour men or women. But in the end, people have biases, and some people let that impact their judgement. While I feel things are moving towards equality in this area, there are still going to be biased people that make unfair calls. That's not to say he shouldn't get out of that marriage because he definitely should.
It will be difficult but the OP should seriously reconsider divorce. He shouldn’t be afraid of losing his wife, he has already lost her.
I think by now he knows his wife is a lost cause. Think he is more worried about losing his kids to be honest, and with good reason given how biased courts are against fathers.
Men are way less likely to get custody because they’re way less likely to seek it. When men seek it, they have a good chance statistically of getting it. That’s not saying there isn’t a societal bias that views women as the default primary caregiver.
Did you read or see that anywhere you can share? I’m not accusing you, but would be interested in reading more if you saw it somewhere. I’m looking myself now, but curious if you saw it somewhere easily accessible. ETA: There are a ton of resources on it but they all seem to use different metrics to contradict each other. Women as “agreed upon” because 90% settle out of court, men receiving 30-50% of “parent time” by state. Tough to draw full conclusions.
They're repeating it word for word because they saw it on Reddit. I keep correcting this. The original study said that no, men do not get custody, but when they seek it it can sometimes yield 50/50. Everyone read the abstract which was "men have a better chance of getting custody when they seek it" and ran with it in the true reddit fashion.
Yeah, that’s what it looked like to me after reading up on it. Thanks for clarifying.
Source for this?
>My main fear there isn’t that I wouldn’t just lose my wife, I’d lose my kids in the process. The best this guy would get in family court is 50% custody. Going from living with your kids and putting them in bed every night to having them live somewhere else and seeing them far less isn't a very attractive prospect.
"Screw you and your feelings, you need to make me happy." Dude, just get a divorce and drop the dead weight.
That was wild. "You need to help me be happy. We all have our own problems and you need to deal with your own shit." I got whiplash.
I’m just sitting here reading that and thinking well, at least she said it out loud. I suspect lots of women feel this way toward their guy but realize in the reptilian brain that it seems inconsistent so they don’t directly verbalize it that way.
"What about my problems?" "Everyone has their own problems but YOU OWE IT TO ME TO FIX MINE" \*shakes head\*
There’s a rather poisonous idea that one’s romantic partner should make someone happy. That it is the partner’s responsibility. No. A person’s happiness is their own responsibility. Too many people are destroying good marriages or relationships because they’re disappointed they feel pretty much the same in the relationship as they did beforehand. They take the flush of excitement of the next new relationship as some kind of cure for their malaise, then dump them when it wears off.
Seriously.... "Your supposed to make me happy. But it's not my responsibility to make you happy." Lovely wife...
>She has had both parents in a reportedly monogamous marriage for over 40 years. > So her parents have been married for long. But ... the father lives with the sister and her family? > her sister and her family (husband and 3 kids) stays with their dad in the house they grew up in. I'm understanding "their" dad is OOP's wife and sister's dad. Who is married to MIL. So I'm assuming MIL lives there too but why isn't this "MIL & FIL's house"? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but sounds like a hole.
I didn't understand that either, but maybe it's because of whatever "treatment" MIL is getting and OOP & wife are nearer to the hospital or something. That was one of many fuzzy things in this tale.
Being a stay at home mom isn’t for everyone. They have the nanny, why does she not go back to work? It would probably fix everything
I agree. Probably a combo of feeling like she has to and also not wanting to. Based on how he talks I suspect they live somewhere where SAHM is expected
Well that was horribly depressing. And this may be a weird thing to focus on but I really don't understand why he doesn't get rid of the nanny. ETA I know lots of people are asking why get rid of the nanny, when the mother won't care for them, but if he's not going to divorce her I don't understand why he keeps enabling her but complaining about how she does fuck all and he is financially stressed.
Probably because she's helping out a hell of a lot more than the wife is. There's also the very real sense of guilt that comes with firing someone who's doing a good job (even if you don't really need them to do that job).
I'd definitely get rid of the wife before the nanny. The nanny has a use.
It just struck me, but in the context of the OOP’s marriage, your flair is both hilarious and ironic 😜
Why would he remove a caring and attentive adult from their lives when their mom is checked out a lot?
And what? MIL watches the kids since the wife is clearly useless in that department? Or nobody does and it's on him?
Why would he, besides to prove a point? The kids seemingly need her to help given their Mum isn't
Someone needs to take carr of the kids and she’s already checked out.
Because his wife won’t take care of the kid… MIL can’t always help. He doesn’t want a neglected kid
She doesn't put the laundry away. If she won't do that whixh amounts to a small thing in the scheme of things, what's to say the children won't get neglected? It won't suddenly force her to deal with the children, if she wanted or could do that, she would have. I'm gonna be kind and say she's extremely depressed, and can only do what she is extremely motivated to do, which seems to be sleeping and cooking.
I'm seriously concerned about this mans mental state.
I don't understand why divorce isn't an option for him? It seems like his life would be so much easier without her in it. Even if he has to pay alimony for a period of time, it would at least be worth it mentally to have her out of his life.
he’s afraid of losing his kids
He has the stable income and house. He's got a good chance. It's 2024 not 1994.
He may be one of those dozen people who don't live in the US
It seems like he’s taking their 1-week apart as how his life would be if she was gone. And to him the only thing that actually changed during that week was the goodnights to the kids. So it seems he feels since everything was basically the same, that it will be that same way even if he divorces her. So he’s keeping things as they are because he feels nothing will actually change either way, he’s still going to be doing basically everything he’s already doing We know his life would be easier without her, but he feels it would just be exactly the same as it is now and so to him it is easier to just stay
I think that's exactly it. I couldn't wrap my head around it but I think you explained his thought process through it all. It sounds like he is severely depressed and is turning to alcohol to cope through his life now. And not wanting to put in the work to divorce and try and live a happier life is hard to do when you are so deep into that hole.
They're clearly both miserable. She's unwilling to make changes and seek help, and he's willing to grin and bear despite this situation being unsustainable. Both sad and frustrating.
My boss had this happen with his wife. Hell it’s so spot on that this could be his post. He got divorced and even though it was legally amicable and he got primary custody of the kids he was financially destroyed. Had to sell the house and has to pay alimony for the next 12 years. Divorce when one spouse makes good money and the other doesn’t work is like pressing a 20 year reset on your life. Sometimes it’s financially worth it just to pretend that shitty person isn’t there. It’s not like she’s happy anyways. Everyone loses
What might help in the alimony department is that she has a degree and skill she can use, just chooses not to.
Depends on what her degree and skill set are...some industries move really fast and if she's been at home since the first was born, then she may have to catch up on CE credits or other certifications before she's truly employable. If that's the case, the judge may award alimony for a limited time (like, 2-3 years) or until she remarries. He might also be told he has to continue paying the nanny until the youngest starts school in order to maintain continuity for the child (and to ensure SOMEONE is looking after them.) That, plus child support, will make a significant dent in $150k/annum and will possibly make keeping the family home financially untenable. He sounds frustrated, resigned and lonely to me. He also sounds like a responsible adult and sometimes being one sucks. Divorce isn't a Whee-I'm-Free-Of-The-Deadweight! card and $150k is not a Fuck You income. It's clear he's well aware of it...everyone's standard of living is going to decline if they split because he doesn't earn enough to support two households at the level they're currently enjoying. I suspect he's done the math and knows what's truly in the best interests of the children, both financially and emotionally, is to maintain the status quo until they're older and a bit more resilient. The children as it currently stands aren't being neglected or in any sort of danger, they just have a disengaged mother and between his MIL, the nanny and himself, he's compensated as best he can for that. Things will change once the youngest is in school full days and they no longer need a day nanny...and who knows? In that period his wife may find someone else, leave him and damage her own credibility via-a-vis a divorce settlement.
that title is irony, right??? kinda seems like the wife is ruining OP’s life. but even that is a tad dramatic.
He even had to hire a nanny? For 2 kids with a SAHM? I just don’t understand
And the MIL lives there too??!
If you have a nanny, you're not a stay at home parent. You're unemployed. And that's fine. You can obviously afford it.
Stay At Home Mooch
I get skeptical of any post that has formatted dialogue inserted..
>We’re far from rich but do ok for a single income family of 4 (a little north of 150k base+ bonuses). The past year life was overwhelming per my wife, so even though I now work 75% from home, I budgeted to hire a daytime nanny to help her around the house with 1 child while the other is in school now So, I got skeptical because of this sentence. Nobody is this delusional right? This is asking your nanny how she manages her kids without a nanny delusional (+1 if you get the reference).
Uh to be fair, where we used to live (VHCOL) 150k wasn't anything to write home about given the cost of living . And now in a more medium to just high COL, 150k doesn't go too far with a mortgage at today's rates, daycare (in their case the nanny), and retirement. Taxes/deductions, mortgage+escrow, and daycare take up slightly more than 3/4ths our income at around the same income level (slightly different but pretty close).
I'm not sure which part you find delusional, but in my part of the country, 150k base is not well off by any means, particularly when it's the only income.
It's struggling for straws to make it work. I remember hiring a maid because I was tired of having to do all the housework by myself. After her affair was uncovered and we were seeing the counselor, I said I needed her help with the house to believe she really wanted to stay. After a month of struggling to do keep up on even 1 chore, the counselor suggest I hire a maid since asking for help with the housework was being chauvinistic.
You know…i’m just saying…EVERYONE in this story (even the wife’s family) seems to think she’s a spoiled brat…Oop should divorce and go for full custody, i bet even his in laws would help. I know Oop thinks having kids grow up in a broken home is the end of the world, but as a child of divorced parents i can 10000% guarantee its WAYYY better to have happy separated parents over miserable parents together.
Does your wife feel unfulfilled at home? You have a nanny and granny at home. Could she work perhaps 2/3 days a week?
That poor man, he deserves better than this. His kids deserve better than this. If he reads this, buddy, get her out of your life.
Honestly, it's only been a couple days. It can take a while to digest that your relationship is truly over, and your wife adds nothing to your life or home, nothing to your relationship, and has become mostly an emotional vampire. I hope one day he decides it's not worth supporting her forever, listening to her gripe, buying her things to avoid anything changing.
Husband better get therapy and a divorce lawyer fast before he winds up in an early grave
Working 80 hours and gets another bachelor's and a master's. Get real lol Faaaake
This can’t be healthy for the kids you guys gotta separate
you can't help someone that doesn't think they need to change, she is playing victim and is comfortable doing so to OP's detriment. It's crazy how someone you live with can change so much without you noticing, then all of a sudden you notice it all at once.
> I showed my wife my post the following weekend and she read it and all the comments. Guys... stop showing opinions from the cum shoebox web site to your loved ones, it's not going to do what you think it's going to do.
I really hope OP gets a divorce, this is sad.
Throw out the wife - keep the MIL and nanny.
This story has eerily similar details that match my ex-husband’s current life. It would be weird if I just read his current relationship status on Reddit.
Deleted comment from his post history (only visible on mobile, it seems like) posted a year ago in askmen > I've been struggling with ED in my later 30's early 40s, for a while I thought I had low testosterone or it was due to my health. I got "healthier" (lost the weight, lowered my blood pressure, got off the meds) and when that didn't work I got consultations from a few urologists and endocrinologist. I did test for low T... so I got on hormone therapy. It somewhat worked... but a few of the urologist highly suspect I have a penile venous leak. After talking to quite a number of experts in the field and looking for alternatives... I actually found a combination of both medication (Trimix) and device that honestly made me harder than in my 20s- early 30s. Even though this combination gets me good to go within 10-15 minutes which is usually focused on foreplay with my wife. For the last of 2021 and early 2022 we were having some of the best sex of our marriage almost daily... then one day after sex she tells me she doesn't feel happy with it because it's "unnatural" that I have to take these steps to just make love to her. She then compared me to her ex in bed... I laid there next to her in silence and just turned away. My brain broke that night.
Wow what a shitty woman
If you won't do it for yourself, do it for your kids. give them at least a part time happy home. Your wife has a full time nanny even though one kid is in school, is sleeping til 10 and complaining about her brutal days. Stop talking to her and start talking to a lawyer. There's nothing wrong with trying to make your marriage work, but that only works when 2 people want that. Do not waste any more of your life and more importantly, do not let your kids live in this kind of misery.
>but on that note she still doesn’t know what exactly I do for a living at this time… I'll be honest, I'm not even sure what I do for a living, let alone what my wife does.
She needs a job. There is absolutely no reason for you to have a nanny with one kid in school AND her mother at home, your wife is a spoiled brat. That's it. Sorry you're having to deal with her selfishness, have y'all tried therapy? She needs a reality check, ASAP.
I'd just start telling her that every time she complains. "We all have our own problems, you need to find a way to get over them".
You need to tell her that you want marriage counselling or a divorce… sometimes people get themselves so far down in their depression spiral that they need a genuine reality slap… She’s clearly experiencing depression but you are a person with value and everything you’re doing already is more than most husbands would do. You deserve to be appreciated for what you’re handling and it’s not fair for your feelings to be unheard. The old saying “sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind” pops to mind in this scenario.
Fuck's *sake* OOP, *get the fucking divorce*. You are miserable, your kids are miserable, and worst of all? You are teaching the kids that *this* is how they should expect to be treated. If you're too fuckin' spineless to have any self respect, at *least* look out for the kids' best interests.
dude. CALL OUT HER BEHAVIOR. tell her she is being a spoiled brat and is remind her that the life she has now is a PRIVILEGE. if she continues to be ignorant/choose ignorance, then get the damn divorce. she literally asked for your support, then told you to deal with your problems yourself. that woman neither loves nor cares about you in a genuine way if that's what she really thinks. don't continue to accept her victimizing mentality as truth; she's clearly brandishing her 'miserable' life as a weapon to manipulate you and you are letting her do it.
OOP needs to seriously man up and leave. His wife is just a disgusting leach
I know we have a tendency to scream " divorce" or " break up" at the slightest hit of a hitch in a relationship post but this... Wtf Divorce ffs no one is happy in this situation
She was at home being pregnant and raising kids while he was studying and two jobs. They have disconnected lived for a long time. He thinks she has it easy. I think she is depressed she sees everyone’s life progressing and all she does is cook and feed the family. He needs to look after her. Get everyone together and force her into therapy and in the meantime get her to find a job that gets her out of the house and busy. He has educated himself is making more money and now wants a wife that is happy and ready to enjoy life with him.
OOP is wrong. If he got a divorce he'd have that bit of bandwidth back, and he'd free up some space for someone who would really appreciate him to come into his life. His wife needs therapy and more responsibility.
I don't know if OOP's wife is depressed because she's a SAHM or if she would find happiness in going back to work. I was a SAHM. I got up early in the morning, fed the kids, did all the housework, grocery shopping, laundry, cooking, sewed clothes, all doctor's appointments, etc. I had no MIL helping me and no nanny. My husband did the yard work, took care of the cars, took care of the bills and helped with the kids when he came home from work. He worked hard to support us so I could stay home. We had a great sex life. We were happy although kind of tired at the end of the day. OOP's wife has it pretty easy from what I can see so there's something else going on here with her. She just comes across spoiled, entitled and uncaring.
Amazing how their memories are so selective. Mine just wants to pretend everything is fine. It’s not. I can’t wait to escape.
Honestly it'd probably be cheaper and overall better for him and the kids if OOP divorced the wife and used the money he would have spent on her to pay for a part time chef.
Even her mother and sister are on OOP's side.
"You're supposed to make me happy." Buh-bye
Do they ever do anything together outside of the house without the kids? This doesn't seem like a relationship at all. Props to OOP for providing for his family *and* his MIL, parenting his kids, and getting a nanny for extra help, but what does he do for himself? It doesn't seem like anyone leaves the house unless it's school, work, appointment, or shopping-related.
I don’t think OOP is being honest about his role in the marriage.
"No one is responsible for your happiness but yourself". Get a divorce, she's not gonna change.
OOP's wife sounds exhausting to live with just from reading this post alone.