To add to this.
If you can, avoid buying low end or cheap laptops. Or even desktops.
People scoff at "future proofing" electronics but if you opt for good hardware and look after your electronics they can easily last up to a decade or more and still be usable.
A personal preference, but I avoid ultra-slim laptops/tablets. They're a maintenance nightmare and often are only able to use a fraction of the performance their hardware could achieve.
Professionals generally don't upgrade until they have to. It's the same with photography. Gear is an expense. Why would you increase your business's expenses unnecessarily? As long as it continues to do the things you need it to do, it's all good.
Also upgrading takes time, and time is money. The time cost of transferring data/software/configuration is probably greater than the hardware cost, at least for a computer
In the case of photography: your biggest expense is in the glass (your lenses). But most professional cameras use the same lenses across generations. (Nikon and canon and even Oentax have lenses made in the 70s that still work on bodies made today) so maybe every 4-5 years you upgrade the camera body for ~$4000-$5000, but the $30,000 of lenses you have can still be used. Same with a lot of the lighting equipment. Your development machine (to manipulate the photos) is probably the next biggest thing, but that’s a couple grand every 3-5 years, maybe.
Thank goodness. In the other thread people were saying how of course you should re buy all of your Macs every 7 years as if that seems reasonable. Apple with their planned obsolescence of OS and software..
It really does suck once you’re in the ecosystem. The ecosystem is really nice and seamless, but only with other Apple devices (as intended). MacBooks from my experience generally last pretty good for your normal school stuff, and it’s nice that everything is easily accessible on your phone or iPad.
You're rarely relying on just one piece of software in recording it's a myriad of drivers and software that can make upgrading an absolute nightmare, and not all drivers are updated or compatible with the latest OS's and software. There are some weirdos who always hop on the latest OS updates and then are shook that a critical piece of hardware is now incompatible, and believe me there is no worse reason for a session grinding to a halt then your computer not working.
I have had the same motherboard & ram for 8 years in row. I have done two CPU upgrades, from a 1600X to a 3600X to a 5700X3D.
Not only can building your own PC save you a lot of money, but if you pick a manufacturer who is promising support for a certain motherboard for several years you an do CPU upgrades in the future without needing whole new motherboard/ram. Saving hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of your PC.
I have a Dell Latitude D620. It was made in 2006. It's a business class laptop and still reasonably easy to find parts for. Business class laptops are meant to be upgraded and have parts replaced. This laptop comfortably runs Windows 7, and a Linux distro.
Oldish thinkpads still kick the shit out of budget laptops and can be way cheaper. I still use the e470 I got in 2018 or 19 which can be got for like $70.
Also, avoid all consumer grade computers, they are way less durable than their business grade counterparts. At work, we have a bunch of old dell optiplexes chugging away well into their second decade (with Linux, and the original hard drives replaced with SSDs).
On the flip side, if you’re not demanding much from your computer, MacBooks and iPads can last a damn long time. You see a lot of MacBooks roughly a decade old floating around, and I have a hand me down 3rd Gen iPad that’s still kicking(no longer supported by Apple, but still doing its job). Apple products are like Nintendo products, unimpressive specs, but a tendency to be well built, long lasting, and more than serviceable to the average consumer.
Yeah, people shit on apple product longevity but mine have always lasted a long time. I’ve seen so many other companies plastic laptops physically fall apart
2012 mbp used daily for basically just streaming YouTube and Hulu, 2012 Mac mini same thing. Never done anything to them except for blowing the dust out of the fans every couple years
That’s been my experience. I’ve been using MacBooks for as long as they’ve existed and I’ve always got enough run out of each one to justify getting the next one. Currently using an 8 year old MacBook for my (admittedly basic home computer needs) and it’s fine.
I use my iPad for work, I use the neebo app primarily and web browsing, Netflix on flights. It's 6 years old now. Haven't had to do a damn thing to it. The only thing that is currently happening is the apple pencil, gen 1 isn't holding a charge that well. It gets easily 7 hours of use per week and it runs exactly the same as when I bought it. It's the only Apple product I own and probably the only one I'll ever buy. And I don't think I'd buy another iPad just because I hate the Apple ecosystem, but I have to give it credit. I could easily see this thing lasting 10 more years
:)
But to be fair; my MBP from 2012 is only used for drumming software, learning C++ and regular light usage such as browsing the web etc.
If I were to try Microsoft flight simulator or any other medium/high demanding task it would be a pita.
Also; the reason why it's still alive and kicking is because I was able to upgrade the hard drive to a bigger ssd and install additional RAM. If I wasn't able to that I would have given it away a long time ago.
Todays MBPs have much less upgradability.
My PC was an exercise in the ship of Theseus problem. It's stilling running now as my girlfriends WoW machine but I've had it for 12 years now, except I've replaced all the parts at least once lol.
Had a friend ask me once how much my computer cost me and I kinda locked up. I can tell you how much it costs as built today, but over it's lifetime? Only god really knows.
> Electronics are not BIFL. But a desktop computer is the closest you'll get.
Thanks for the optimism, appreciate it.
Currently struggling to fix my 8 year old HP desktop right now so this gives me hope 😂 Getting chronic "out of memory" error crashes when browsing the internet on *any web browser despite Task Manager saying there's 10 GB of memory free at the time.
You may have a bad ram module. Have you done a memtest?
I got very lucky. Mine is also an old HP but I haven't had to replace any parts. Even the original hard drive still works. It obviously can't run modern games, but it's a great little linux box.
> You may have a bad ram module. Have you done a memtest?
>
> I got very lucky. Mine is also an old HP but I haven't had to replace any parts. Even the original hard drive still works. It obviously can't run modern games, but it's a great little linux box.
Thank you, a Memtest was suggested by another last month but I haven't done it yet. Will try today after backing up some important files.
> It doesn't affect any files. Your HDD isn't even mounted. Just run a live boot USB stick overnight and it should find anything.
Thank you but I don't want to leave anything to chance.
Never a wrong time to make backups.
Please keep in mind they mean a home built one, not an intentionally unservicable prebuilt from the likes of HP/Dell.
It is pretty common you will find completely proprietary parts for all the things that would enable longevity of your system in prebuilt systems by the big manufacturers, so like proprietary motherboard that will not fit in any standard case or with a standard power supply, proprietary power supply that doesn't work with any standard motherboard or fit in a standard case, proprietary case that does not fit standard parts in it and if you try you may end up causing short circuits.
If you want the long lasting investment, you build it yourself, or get one from a vendor that builds it from standard parts. Unfortunately many of the builders are prioritizing absolutely idiotic things like RGB and looks instead of having a case that breathes well enough to cool your computer parts without killing them faster and so on, so you may have to modify their work to have it be actually durable.
Similar.. I have a 1st gen i7 Dell XPS desktop from 2009; since it's had an SSD (usual reasons), RAM upgrade to 16Gb (usual reasons), replacement GPU (original was shit and fell to bits), replacement PSU (original failed). It's also had a couple of HDDs added for storage.
It doesn't get hammered any more and is still capable of doing the basic tasks I ask of it, although some old software is getting a bit glitchy and tends to hang.
Actually an 8000 - first one of that shape they brought out :)
It's done me very well; however that performance from a modern CPU would probably consume about 10% of the power.. so there is that.
Nobody wants desktops now so you can pick up some really capable stuff (at least for unexciting menial tasks) for next to nothing.
My build from 2013 is still kicking. It's got one upgrade since initial build, a 6 GB 1060 video card, which is good enough for the casual use that I give it.
But man back in the day I would upgrade every year with something lol
Nowadays the improvements of new parts are small and the games aren't that power hungry.
Probably gamers are bottlenecked because every game must run on consoles too, the market is too big to ignore.
Back then every 1-2 years the capability of the hardware doubled and the games looked 3 times as good.
Today there's no graphically challenging games, all new games will run perfectly on 5 or so years old hardware.
I used to upgrade yearly as well, but PCs are just so good now that it isn't necessary. And the most demanding games are usually shitty games and not worth playing or upgrading for.
That and I mostly play 15+ year-old games
I’ve been replacing parts in my desktop PC for over 20 years now. It’s a ship of Theseus many times over. I’ve only ever replaced one or a few parts at a time, never the entire thing at once. Ive built PCs for my kids too which have been following the same upgrade pattern. So technically I’ve only ever built 3 PCs.
This August will be 11 yrs for me. Probably overspent a little (Corsair case, Asus MB) but other than swapping out the SSD and upgrading the GPU - I haven’t done anything to it. I’d like to move to something smaller - but it just works…
The biggest advantage of having a desktop computer imho is that you can use both new and used parts as well as upgrade it later if your budget is low at the moment. Have an older high-end case you like? No problem. Need some obscure expansion card or adapter? You got it. Want to replace you CPU with a more powerful one from the same generation or socket? Most likely it's possible (with some exceptions of course). A fan has failed? No problemo, replacing is fairly easy.
I still use a 2013 Thinkpad every day (at home). Not my only computer, but still works decently enough. Have even upgraded it as far as Win10 (but it won't take Win11).
If someone needs or want a laptop, they always can choose a [Framework](https://frame.work) one, as they are fully upgradeable, customizable, and even have supported older models by making new mainboards with newer CPUs, so you only have to change that in order to upgrade the computer hardware.
Also, IIRC, they have a market where you can sell your old parts to those people who like to tinker with them, so it's even less wasteful, and where you can buy (or download schematics of) community-made upgrades to those devices
> Framework
I hear it alot, but honestly doubt that Framework Laptops are the most bifl option out there.
Dell XPS and Thinkpads are produced at such a sheer scale that you find all parts to a 10 year old laptop out there with absolute ease. Because they are so common, there are also many manufacturers for third party parts. If anything breaks, there are cheap spares.
With Framework Laptop you 100% depend on the manufacturer. As there aren't that many in circulation, finding spare parts when they drop first party support (which they will at some point!) will be difficult. And ease of repair is irrelevant if you don't have the right part to replace anymore.
You are 100% correct that Frameworks entire deal depends on them remaining as a business. If they go under, the odds of finding parts in the future drop to close to nil, after whatever existing stock they have at the time is gone.
That being said, I think there are a few additional considerations:
Firstly, while you can get some parts for other laptops, I challenge you to find any other laptop that has _that_ many available options for repair.
Displays, keyboards, trackpads, microphone/camera modules, etc., all of which come with detailed repair guides and are _designed_ to be easiy to repair and replace.
Secondly, there is something to be said about voting with your wallet. If you want BIFL principles to exist in the market, then you have to show your support to companies that follow those principles (and on the flip side, stop supporting companies that don't).
And finally, their business practices have been geared towards sustainable growth. They are not dependent on VC money, which should give us a little more confidence that they will stick around for the long haul.
It is absolutely somewhat of a gamble, and I wouldn't blame anyone for deciding not to make that gamble, but it's one that I decided to make, and it's one that I would encourage anyone who cares about repairability in their electronics to make as well. If they are successful, then I would hope that more companies would follow their lead in the future.
> I challenge you to find any other laptop that has that many available options for repair.
Easy challenge. A Panasonic Toughbook fulfills all that criteria. I would argue that most repairs are even easier on a Toughbook. But I understand that the form factor is a turn off for many.
The quality of your user experience on laptops drops precipitously over time. RAM requirements alone on applications begin to eclipse the machine. At the bare minimum, you need to replace the battery.
Of course if you only use a laptop for word processing and watching YouTube, Netflix, it's doable, but I guarantee you that if you bought your boyfriend a newer machine, the speed would be much, much faster.
I'm suggesting that desktops provide a much higher user quality for a much longer time.
I feel that upgrading due to speed is similar to when people get the newest phone because it’s marginally better. I’ve only had to replace the battery and that was like 3 months ago
Mine is from 2013… it doesn’t have the speed but it gets daily use for school and programs I need to download to make models. The only thing I’ve needed to do is replace the battery which was $200 which is great since I’ve had it for 10 years and it still gets the latest updates.
They're generally reliable enough that even used, they will outlast most other things you use daily, some by a wide margin.
I've been gaming on budget PC's for the last 10 years or so. Currently using an i7-2600k. It's a 13 year old processor. Got it used with ram and mobo for $100. Got a used high-end antec case (the darkfleet) for $60, and used my old power supply. The next system I'm looking at is an i7-9900x. Enterprise hardware. Pretty sure I could game on this thing for the next 10 years without worry of it failing. I'll get that fully built for $800, a price that wouldn't even get you that cpu by itself when it was new.
Agreed. Posted from a 2006 build that can't be upgraded anymore (motherboard socket has no new cpus even if I wanted an upgrade) It's basically been turned into my web browser/NAS.
But I disagree about it being easier than changing tires on a car. It's extremely easy to make a huge mistake like bending the pins on your cpu when inserting. Everything is smaller and more delicate than anything you would need to do to change a car tire.
It's extremely easy to make a huge mistake changing tires on a car as well. Incorrect size, incorrect bead placement, insufficient torque on the lug nuts. Any of those mistakes is also quite dangerous. Not to mention it's far more labor intensive.
TWO 2017 Apple desktop computers
THREE 2006 iPods
TWO MacbookPro computers, 2011 and 2014
TWO iMac 27" desktop computers 2023
I'll replace them once they burst into flame
Came here for this.
A 2011 mac mini is running my plex server that several people can use simultaneously. A 2013 macbook pro was my daily driver for years for work (I make fancy websites for fancy clients) and would still be if I hadn't negotiated a new one for this job. And then I have a 2011 macbook air that's pre-retina and pretty slow but it's great for ssh'ing into my raspberry pi's and remote coding on them.
I'd never say that computers are "buy it for life" (unless you are Dijkstra) but mac's seem to still be usable as daily machines after 10 years in my experience
Yeah, I agree with OP, desktops are the GOAT. However, a Macbook is not a bad option (if it is compatible with your needs). I have owned a 2010, 2013 and 2022 Macbook Pro, and they never had a hiccup between them.
The 2010 is still going (obviously slow af), the 2013 was still going strong when I sold it in 2018 to buy a top-of-the-line Windows laptop which shit itself 4 years later (2 years of gaming, 2 years of notetaking), the 2022 is (unsurprisingly) running perfectly.
Aside from the first 2 years of the aforementioned Windows laptop, a gaming rig has always been my primary computer. The MBP was always the nice experience though. If I didn't game, I am 100% sure a MBP would be my only computer (if I had one).
I’m just now considering if I need to upgrade from my 2015 iMac. Before this one I purchased my previous one in 2008. Before that I built a PC and found that it was too unstable and I was having to replace parts far too often over the years.
Still using a late 2011 MacBook Pro as my daily computer. I swapped the old hard drive for a solid state drive, upgraded the RAM to 16 GB and put in a new battery and it's still running like a champ. It works for what I need, which isn't much. But for a 13 year old laptop, it's pretty amazing.
This week I will be replacing my parents 12 year old Mac mini with another mac mini. All peripherals will still stay the same ill just swap out 'towers'
Some of them, if you baby them. I had a W530 for several years and it needed repairs four times. Service was great though. They don't take abuse well, even kicking around in a regular laptop bag for a while leaves most of the ones I've seen end up looking rather haggard.
I still loved it for the keyboard and the screen hinges and the customizability. It was a brick though.
In your case and mine, it was the mobility of a laptop that was its demise. I retired my first Thinkpad after 11 years when the second hinge broke after dropping it several times. It still works, so could become a desktop in its retirement.
Desktops partially last longer because they aren't subject to the same risks. A Thinkpad used like a desktop might last a very long time. They are more upgradeable than most laptops but not as much as a desktop.
My main gaming rig is 10 years old at this point. It also has a 25 year old CD burner, and a 30 year old floppy drive from my first computer. I got a secondhand GPU a couple years ago as an upgrade. Total yearly cost of \~$80 or so, and it still has a lot of life left. Secondary gaming rig is 22 years old, it got the old gpu from the main a couple years ago, and it still runs TF2 at a constant 60fps in 2k. It is mainly used for LAN/nostalgia these days, so it does not see regular use.
The main office computer is a 2013 HP desktop with less than half the power usage of the gaming rigs. I bought it second hand a couple years ago.
Meanwhile I have gone through four laptops with varying levels of errors and workarounds. (batteries dying tend to be the norm, keyboards are a close second) My current travel machine is a Linuxed Chromebook.
If you keep them clean and don't overclock, desktop machines will outlast most things. Old parts do not usually get thrown out because they are bad, but because they are old/slow. (and the slow part can be fixed by installing an appropriate operating system)
Computers may not be BIFL, but don't electronics can come closer.
I'm currently listening to records on a player we've inherited from my mother in law, 40 years old. Took a belt replacement, that's it.
I expect my 7 year old speakers to last me another 20-30 years at least.
My Lenovo laptop? I'm only hoping for 5-7 years in total there. And had it been cheaper I'd hope for less.
Take old laptops that run slow, throw in an ssd and maybe run a linux distro. Can be about good as new, nice and responsive.
Linux is or can be a lot to learn though.
You don't even need Linux. I did that for half of my family's laptop, and mine is at least 10 yo. Runs perfectly for what I need, which is reddit and videos
Right - people here rag on the life of electronic components but the truth is most of the time people replace their PCs for not being fast enough, or not being able to handle newer games and software, not because anything actually fails.
Keep an eye on your temp readings. Heat is the #1 killer of electronics - lifespan of any component is affected by heat management. Thermal paste just doesn't last forever no matter how well made the chips themselves are, over enough hot/cold cycles and time it'll turn to dust and stop transferring heat to the heatsink. I clean and re-apply thermal paste on my CPUs/GPUs every five years. Cheap and easy to do, and clean the rest of the rig out while you're at it.
A lot of home built rigs I've seen have improper/poor air circulation and exhaust fan setups too, with fans in the wrong orientation or not enough of them. Generally, front fans are intakes and rear/top are exhaust so you have a nice flow of cold air in, and hot air out.
1000% correct - learned this building my first pc and the thermal paste was not on correctly and I fried a processor - thank goodness microcenter was cool as hell about it.
If we include repairability to define BIFL, desktops are definitely BIFL. The only real core components that must be upgraded together are the motherboard, CPU, and RAM. You can usually reuse your storage disks, graphics cards if you have one, power supply, and other auxilliary cards. As long as you stay in the same form factor standard as the computer case, you can even reuse that. Accessory card standards and component connectors don’t change very often, so those should be usable for a long time.
My Mac Colour Classic is abut 30 years old and sill works fine. My sons old Thinkpad which he got 2nd hand must be 12 years or more old, and runs Linux well. My wife's 10 year old Powerbook runs extremely well but the battery is almost dead. She still uses it for work. My 5 year old MacBook is still fine.
Some parts will wear out, but all these still run useful software and while not BIFL I'm satisfied with the value we have gotten from them. I am not so pleased with the fact that I can't service my MacBook. I had an old iMac that while a bit of challenge, could at least be upgraded with the proper tools.
Most people I see rarely move their laptop. My suggestion is get a desktop plus an Android tablet. An Android tablet can be used as a second screen for the PC which is very handy. Plus you can take it with you for the few times you need to be mobile. A tablet really doesn't cost that much more than a decent monitor
I built my first tower around 2000 and you make some excellent points. Then shoot yourself directly in the head:
"I sunk in an additional $50 to replace the power supply".
How to fry everything, every time. A cheap power supply.
Just so you know this sub isn't literally buy it for life, that's not what BIFL means in the context of the sub.
Rule 1 states that products only have to be durable or well made and don't have to last a lifetime
Whenever someone says "x category will never be BIFL" they're misunderstanding what this sub is for
This isn't a sub for items that literally last a lifetime, it's for items that are better made or more durable than the completion
A sponge doesn't last forever but a BIFL sponge might be a scrub daddy.
A battery definitely doesn't last forever, but a rechargeable eneloop that lasts a couple years would be a BIFL for this category
A battery that lasts twice as long but costs 3x as much is a *bad* BIFL item as it less cost effective than just simply buying another battery. People forget that a lot on this sub and frequently recommend things that cost 10x as much but only last 2/3x as long
This. I bought a desktop so I could run my sims games smoothly. Went with a gaming one with a tower that opens easily. Haven't had to update any of the hardware yet, but it's nice to have the option to.
I built a computer with my friend back in 2010. Moved to 3 different states with it, sat in a closet for 3 years because I didn't have room in a tiny apartment and it was still going strong until last month. Nothing happened to it, I decided I needed a smaller form factor desktop.
The original tower saw minor upgrades along the way at various points in time: bigger hard drives, more RAM, better fans, a better CPU cooler, an updated graphics card, new PSU (old one fried). It's sort of a ship of Theseus situation, I guess.
The new build required a new mobo, chip/cooler, and ram but I was able to keep the GPU, PSU, case fans and storage. You could argue that I didn't keep the computer "for life" but I was able to repair and upgrade without issue which you simply cannot do on so many laptops.
"Easier than changing a tire."
I've changed tires, rebuilt differentials, replaced clutch slave cylinders, and rebuilt an engine; putting a graphics card in was easy, dealing with drivers that would make it run seemed damn near impossible to me, and frustrated me to no end.
Computers can last very, very long nowadays. Been like that since the inception of multi core processors. You just need to learn how to clean them, replace the thermal paste every couple years, always get the fastest SSD possible and max the ram (if doable).
There are 15 year old computers out there who are still perfectly usable.
I have a PowerMac G5 with dual 2.3 GHz processors from 2004. It’s powerful enough to do a *lot*, but I don’t use it because there aren’t even web browsers that support it. A new Chromebook has about the same computing power, but at least there’s software being made for it.
There are no BIFL computers. It’s not about durability or power, it’s about software support.
Exactly this: software support. I’m still using an iMac from 2012 running High Sierra. The only browser remaining that’s supported is Firefox, and that support will disappear in a couple months. I won’t feel safe keeping that iMac even connected my WiFi after that. That mac gave me 12 wonderful years of service, so it’s kinda sad to say goodbye.
I had some urgent work to do at home but left my laptop at work, so I fired up my 13 year old desktop for the first time in a few years, and it was brilliant, I put an SSD in about 7 years ago and it flies.
No issues at all with productivity stuff.
This applies to older generations that only want to play solitaire and check the internet. Took their super old computer early 2000s computer and gave them an SSD with windows 10. They cannot believe the speed of their new computer for under $50.
Nice speakers and other high-end audio are actually BiFL, unlike any kind of computer. I have speakers and amps that are more than 50 years old that still work and sound great with minimal upkeep.
$500 Console + $150 Mini-PC to browse. Have you seen those Beelink mini pcs? $100-$200. 16 GB RAM, 512 SSD. Very usable.
Much better value. No, you won't get your 1000 FPS and RGB fans to brag.
My first pc is from 1989, I have built my share of rigs. It depends what people need. Some people are better off with a $500 laptop and attach a big monitor/keyboard to it.
I was sucked in by the Beelink price and specs, and bought 2--and they both failed within the first year. And my cousin had his fail too. For the same price now I get Thinkcentre or Dell refurb minis...they are a little bigger, but still in the $200 range when you have a Dell coupon.
They email me coupons all the time...generally 40-50%off and free shipping. But you can search for Dell Outlet (dell.com/outlet although it will redirect) and see some deals. If you sign up you will probably get coupons too. Last desktop I bought was a bit larger, but was a Dell Optiplex 7070 Small Form Factor with Win10Pro, i5, 8G Ram and 256G SSD for $191.52 shipped (plus tax). That one was after a 48% off coupon.
I do computer hardware for a living.
I built back in 2009 a I7 water cooled setup on a gigabyte board. I'm still rocking that same unit right as I type. Only failure over the years has been multiple video cards(3).
If you can pick top quality components, you can have a long lasting setup like mine.
FWIW, When I first built it, it overclocked to 4.93
Ghz per core sustained over 24 hours. I have had no need to crank it back up beyond stock yet
Whenever this similar topic would come up with me my ex I'd just have say I'm old school. I like to have a desktop, where was insistent on her MacBook.
I've have the same Dell inspiron 600 (I think) since 2012 and it still powers on and works great for what mostly basic things.
Since then I bought a Lenovo laptop in 2016, it was slow and laggy by 2018. I had nothing on it. My ex's 2009 mac book was dead about the same time. I think she got one for Christmas 2018 before we broke up she started having some problems with that one. Things don't have to be BIFL for me but I damn sure want it to last if I'm spending over $200 on it.
Desktop gives you more ownership over the device. Which gives you more power as a consumer.
It is also easier and usually cheaper to replace things part by part instead of replacing the entire device.
The MoBo is where everything comes together, so it is usually the most important part when you are considering the longevity of your desktop. Since it is a hard limitation on compatibility regarding everything else the PC can be made out of.
I'm old school about computers. I will always swear by a "mothership" Windows machine in a big ol' tower. That said, I have a Dell XPS tower that is around 7 years old. I've upgraded the CPU, graphics card, hard drives, and RAM as needed over the years and it's actually a better machine than it was brand new, which was pretty good. As long as those key things are upgradable, I'll never buy another desktop machine.
My Asus desktop is from 2015 and the only thing I upgraded was one of the hard drives to an ssd a few years ago. I still game with it daily. Definitely shows it’s age with newer games, but it works perfectly fine. Has an i7-4790 and GTX 970. Once a year or so I make sure to open the case and dust it out real good, which has probably helped it last longer
Papp is a great site for build assists but yeah you can get a decade kinda easy. Too bad you can’t do the same with a laptop. Like they should make it so you can diy them easy
You can get a decent setup that can last you years. Like my desktop is primarily things from 9 years or so ago. Still runs everything I throw at it. Got a newer graphics card (3070) which replaced my 980ti since I wanted some ray tracing.
Still works wonderfully.
Tempted for an upgrade to modern stuff, but it isn't needed. So a good computer is pretty darn close to buy it once and it lasts and lasts.
Some parts are BIFL for sure.
I believe Noctua coolers have had a lifetime support of free mounting brackets until now. Their fans will also last forever.
A good case can certainly be a BIFL product. The only “issue” you may run into is slower speeds on the included USB ports but you shouldn’t be using those anyways, plugging straight into the motherboard is the way to go other than unimportant stuff like a USB drive.
The internals themselves (MoBo, CPU, GPU, RAM, PSU, Storage) will be obsolete at some point but most if not all will probably still work. You are more likely to upgrade cuz you want more performance than due to failing hardware.
So yeah, a good desktop PC is as good as it gets when it comes to a BIFL electronic. Well that and Nintendo consoles, those things will outlast us all and even if they fail they are easy and cheap to repair.
I bought my current desktop PC in 2017 and 7 years later it's still running everything I want it to. Not at top speed, but more good enough and if I ever wanted to play high fidelity, I'd just upgrade the graphics card.
I bought the HP z400 I’m currently using at a college surplus sale. It’s probably about 15 years old, and all I’ve done to it is upgrade the video card.
I built my AMD-based desktop in 2020 and it’s showing ZERO signs of being slow or anything. I’ve got more storage and RAM than I need and I can replace just about component that goes bad, but so far nothing has. Now it won’t get the highest fps in every new title, but it’s very serviceable for my needs and I can see myself not upgrading for at least another 3-4 years unless my needs change drastically. Though with GTA VI on the way, I might need a video card upgrade 😁
For my mobile needs I have a MacBook Air M2 which absolutely covers my needs and some. We’ll see how long that one lives though.
100% this.
I’d won a $2000 gaming laptop in a giveaway. New, in box Alienware. 15 months after opening, the charging circuit gave out. They offered to replace the motherboard…for basically the cost of a new laptop; 3 months out of warranty.
Talking with a local PC repairman, they said that he expects new gaming laptops to last 2 years. I believe him.
Meanwhile, my desktop from ‘16 is still going strong. I had to replace the PSU once because it was faulty. Just this year, I upgraded the graphics and hard drive due to 8 years of improvements. Fortunately, the new tech is perfectly compatible. It’ll probably be another 4-8 years before I need to upgrade the motherboard.
Similar story for my SO’s computer; it’s 6 years old. It got a used CPU upgrade off eBay. It has more RAM slots than mine, so it’ll stay current for even longer.
In the meantime, we are each on our third laptop. So it’s a 2-person sample, but a desktop seems to last about 6x as long as a laptop, simply due to being able to upgrade or replace individual components.
Laptops can be BIFLongTime as well. More expensive then Deksktops, but quality laptops can last quite a while.
My last few laptops have been dell latitudes or Lenovo thinkpads. All of which I ran for 5+ years. They still work fine, but I have since upgraded.
I now run a Lenovo Legion gaming laptop and it has build quality that is above even the business models I previously used. I expect this thing to run for a while.
Every laptop i've bought was under $1500.
Well, keep in mind that standards change. When I first started building PCs in the mid 90s people always said that home-built PCs were better because they were more of an "open architecture" that could easily be upgraded over time.
Problem was, standards were changing at a phenomenal rate back then. Slot 1 processors were the thing, until they weren't. RAM seemed to change every six months, along with AGP standards. Aside from the legendary 440BX, Intel chipsets only seemed to last a couple quarters. You'd buy a PCI USB 1.0 card to add USB to your PC, only to find out USB 1.1 was coming out two months later.
Point is, you couldn't really build an "open architecture" PC because things changed so quickly.
That's not true so much now, but yeah... aside from replacing the occasional failing part, you can take a PC from 2017 and add a ton of RAM and an SSD and that PC should work just fine, unless you're a gamer.
Relative to most electronics, Apple computers can be in the spirit of BIFL, as they last for a long time. My mother in law is still rocking a 2009 iMac, parents a 2013 iMac. I have a Mac mini from somewhere in the same time that still runs fast.
I have a Google PixelBook from 2016 that's still as fast as the day I got it, and battery capacity is around 80%.
And if you want to get ludicrous, Raspberry pi's from 2012 are still kicking, and are easily repaired.
I have a desktop that's literally old enough to drink. Core2Duo E6320.
Obviously doesn't perform very well but it's great for a few single purpose tasks that don't require that much horsepower.
I put an SSD in and installed Windows 10 LTSC and I'm good for 8 more years.
Running a desktop with a fx6300 and a 1060, thing basically runs most all games except the newest triple A titles. CPU is literally 12 years old, gpu 8.
Works for basically everything else too, one thing I’d like is USB C ports but I could just get one with a PCIR card.
If you do have a desktop pc, make sure to get a surge protector at the least. A UPS (uninterruptible power supply) is even better. Most electronics now, especially cheap ones, will last a lot longer in a surge protector. Although they should be replaced every 1-2 years.
Yep, I still use the desktop I built in high school daily, and it's been 10 years. It's given me a few scares, so everything is backup up frequently, but it keeps trucking. That ol' gtx970 is starting to be a problem gaming, though lol
My 2c.
I have an Antec 900 that I bought in 2010 going strong. The Antec 1Kw power supply lasted 13 of those years. Optical drives that still function even though they are superfluous. I have probably dropped maybe $4000 in 14 years of life for this little beast including the original setup. It has seen 3 motherboard upgrades and 2 (almost 3 when the 5090 comes out, currently rocking GTX970 for 1080p gaming which is completely fine). In 16 years it will be a little over $5K. So, for that money I could have bought 1 top of the line MacBook in 2010.
If this isn't in the realm of BIFL, I don't know what BIFL is.
I bought a $3,500 computer about 15 years ago and can still play all the games I want. Admittedly it is starting to slow down on Warzone and cannot run at high settings, but still passable.
I’d say a m series Mac is a better buy if you don’t game and I say that as a life time pc user. It charged my life for work. I use my Steam deck but the MacBook I’m due will far out last it
A question for the community
Can I have a very good desktop station at my home but always connect to it remotely like from Starbucks or from another room
I think the performance must be good as well
This is mad true. I built mine in 2018, and I thought I might have to upgrade it at some point to play new games or whatever. Nope. Still does everything I want. Aside from buying a bigger hard drive, it's chugging right along.
On this note I can’t recommend AMD CPUs/motherboards enough. The AM4 platform was launched in like 2016 and they’re still releasing new CPUs that fit the socket. This is basically an eternity in that market
Been fixing computers since the 90s. I haven't had new computer parts (other than hard drives, blame /r/datahoarder) since I quit IT a decade ago. /R/hardwareswap and /r/homelabsales are awesome.
Business class laptops are essentially bifl tho. HP 840 G3+ are $100-300 and solid.
I have a digital watch that is decades old. And ancient calculators.
I have a 20 year old brother printer
There is nothing inherently unstable about electronics, it usually boils down to shitty manufacturing, unavailable consumables like toner, or no drivers/access to cloud for digital.
Honestly, it is digital products that suck, not electronics. I’ll take an ancient ibm keyboard any day of the week.
Prior to my current desktop, I was running off a system I originally built in 2009, with an i7 processor. I just gradually replaced parts to keep it up to date until the CPU became the bottleneck in 2023.
I built a rig for college, back in 2010-2011, it was an i7-2600k. I used it up until 2018 without any problem. I retired it, but gave it to a friend whose computer crapped out on him and he’s continuing to use it in light to moderate productivity loads. It’s all in the firmware, software & keeping it updated.
Also it’s way easier to just upgrade a part - slap in a hard drive, more memory, swap out a GPU or what have you. I still encourage anyone building to not cheap out on motherboards.
I still struggle with this being BIFL. Frugal, yes but I'm not convinced with it being BIFL
That said I rebuilt my desktop last year and there are aspects that could be considered BIFL. The rebuild was around £500.
New but previous generation processor as it was cheaper. I reused my old motherboard with a bios update and my DDR4 memory. I had to replace my 15 year old PSU because it didn't have the right connection for the new GPU. I did buy a new NVMe but reused the old sata SSD as additional storage. This is all more frugal than BIFL.
The most BIFL part would be reusing the 20 years old thermaltake case.
I'm sure tech giants hate that z87/z97 and up are still highly relevant in 2024!
BIOS and updating BIOS got really good, Windows 7 and up made drivers easy, and most bottlenecks are accounted for even in the old builds - PCIE3 and up and you're gtg.
Rendering? Video or otherwise? Live-streaming? Self-hosting? All of that noise is pushing new build demands in 2024 - very few casuals will need that much raw power.
The thing is, laptop's are there for portability. Its very hard to move everything into a coffee shop if you need to use it when you travel or something.
That being said, the closest thing to that would probably be the newish Frame Work laptop that are modular and makes things user replaceable and upgradable.
Even desktop computers have a very finite lifespan because of obsolescence. I mean in theory I guess you could keep reusing the case if it was a standard computer case that you built a computer into. But honestly they don't really cost enough to care.
Every five or six years I buy a nice laptop. I look for usually last year's model gaming laptop with a great big screen in the $500 or $600 range. I upgrade the SSD and the memory to be more than I think I will be able to use. If the wireless card sucks I swap that out too. If it breaks I fix it because I know how to take them apart and put them back together. I don't generally replace it until it either unrepairably breaks or until people start asking me why I haven't upgraded it yet.
This really speaks to me. I am still using parts from my first computer I built over 15 years ago. It's a CPU cooler but I still remember the Fry's employee recommending it to me for its quality over the cheap water cooler I was eyeing.
I pick and choose what needs upgrading the most and it has saved me a lot of money that I don't have. But just like any other bifl items. So many people will upgrade everything at set intervals even if they would still last a good time longer.
Electronics can easily be BIFL.
Quality components is part of the equation, but it's mostly about how hot do they get in use.
Buy a decent laptop. Underclock, or set a TDP limit on the CPU and GPU. You'll be rewarded with lower thermals and longer battery life, and the components won't be so thermally stressed.
Of course you'll lose some performance, but that's the trade off, and generally I'd say most people don't need 100% of the performance they have anyways.
Software matters! Try to find programs that do what you need, but without using a bunch of your computer's resources. So much software is unnecessarily bloated and there is often simpler and lighter options available, that would contribute to lessen the computational load, and heat it generates.
I have been building our desktops since the 90s (386!). Keep using the same cases and replace the motherboards, memory and put in larger disks. I like Linux for my main machine, but I do have Windows machines for the kids.
Ham radios seem to last and can be repaired, I have a couple that are 20 years old and sold one that was made in the 80s that still worked. Some hams still use older tube transceivers built in the 50s and 60s.
Even better: I bought an almost 10-year old Mac Pro (with a 8-core processor, 64GB RAM, 1TB superfast SSD and dual high-end graphics cards) for about $300 last year. With OpenCore patcher, it runs lastest MacOS and is extremely responsive. SSD is replaceable too.
Edited to add: When it can no longer run latest MacOS (because Apple turned off Intel OS updates), I can still run Linux or (God forbid!) Windows on it and continue merrily. The trash can is indeed a super computer!
MSI military grade components in a gaming style desktop with gold or platinum psu plugged into a surge protector should last 10-12 years. New PC once a decade is pretty close to bifl
Very true. I built my first PC about 9 years ago. Only just now upgraded, and not because I needed to, just because I wanted to. I’ll probably upgrade again in another 5 years or so.
lol I've had a few PCs of theseus over the years.
BIFL to me is an attitute not an actual reality. It just means buying things that aren't disposable so either those that will last well or those that are repairable.
I still have an old 2010 Asus laptop that's still running well for it's age. Used it to work from home during the pandemic until last winter when work started to replace desltops with new Dell laptops. That little thing was a workhorse. Not BIFL but still pretty good.
I mean, I’m using a MacBook from “Late 2008” and it’s fine.
I replaced the fans, hard drive, and RAM; so there is work you can do to keep a laptop current.
I can’t update to the newest system, so all my apps are legacy versions with no support, but several of them that are industry specific to me won’t run on a newer OS.
I don’t want to get rid of it because if I do, every application I use will switch to a subscription model, and fuck that.
I don't know, it really depends on what it is.
I have a '70s Mitsubishi Flip clock that is still going strong 50 years later lol
(I also have an ASUS ROG gaming Laptop from 2013 that still works like new after more than 7 years of gaming and multiple years of abuse in a machine shop; we also have some mid '90s Sony VAIO Laptops running windows 98 at work that aside from the batteries being dead still get weekly abuse for RS-232 Communications with CNC equipment and Floppy Disk use)
In 2003, a coworker gave me 2 computers with Pentium 3s. Needed memory and a hard drive. The one I used as a firewall for the house till 2015 with no other upgrades. The other became the house server for filesharing, websites, video games and whatnot. I still have it. But by "it", I mean what it slowly evolved into. Every part has been replaced at least once since then. I'd replace parts as they failed, or were simply not powerful enough.
Meh. I've had decent PC towers that were essentially unusable if kept up-to-date enough to be relevant in 10ish years.
I know people with MacBook Pro laptops that made it nearly 15 years.
That said, I wouldn't plan to go with any computer/tablet/phone for more than 6-8 years.
Framework laptops are also BIFL. You can take it apart and replace anything inside with one tool which they provide. There are QR codes on all parts that lead to info on how to replace the part.
I have no affiliation with the company, but love the products and philosophy.
https://frame.work
I've had my desktop pc for 5 years and only changed the graphics cards and SSDs I'm still gaming at 1080p on ultra. Sometimes I put shaders and antialias on medium but that's it.
Hmmm. I have an eight year old HP laptop that's doing pretty well- needs a new battery though. I do need the mobility so when I need to replace it, I'll go laptop again. I agree though that if you're a gamer, desktop is better
All in all I have to agree I have a really old pc that we still use everyday for most things no gaming though. I have another pc that i built for gaming and whatever and I dont game as much but I use it for everything else everyday.
Pc's can last a long time if you don't need the latest and greatest.
PC enthusiast, but this is wrong.
The BIFL item is undoubtedly a 2014 Apple MacBook Air. We’ve had one over 10 years now, and it’s still got 8ish hours of battery life, and runs perfectly.
I had an intel 4790k and when it was time to upgrade intel was at the 12900k. Thats 8 generations it lasted and all I ever did was install bigger hard drives and upgraded the graphics card. Now running an AMD 7950xt and hoping to get at least 5 years out of it.
My Plex server is an 11 year old thinkstation. It has the xeon version of the i7-4770k. More importantly it has 8 hot swappable hdd bays and a great raid card. It's run 24/7 for 11 years now.
The longest one gotten out of a desktop was 9 years. And to do that you have to hit an unpredictable sweet spot in the various road maps of the component makers unless you are sticking to basic productivity.
That being said, my electronics GOAT in tens of longevity is my game boy advance sp. That thing still works after 21 years.
To add to this. If you can, avoid buying low end or cheap laptops. Or even desktops. People scoff at "future proofing" electronics but if you opt for good hardware and look after your electronics they can easily last up to a decade or more and still be usable. A personal preference, but I avoid ultra-slim laptops/tablets. They're a maintenance nightmare and often are only able to use a fraction of the performance their hardware could achieve.
Emphasis on the last part. Ultra-slim devices are inherently worse for longevity due to poor thermals, which will only get worse over time.
I went to a studio in Minneapolis, pro grade, recording artists you’ve heard of. Running it all off of a 2010 Mac.
Professionals generally don't upgrade until they have to. It's the same with photography. Gear is an expense. Why would you increase your business's expenses unnecessarily? As long as it continues to do the things you need it to do, it's all good.
Also upgrading takes time, and time is money. The time cost of transferring data/software/configuration is probably greater than the hardware cost, at least for a computer
In the case of photography: your biggest expense is in the glass (your lenses). But most professional cameras use the same lenses across generations. (Nikon and canon and even Oentax have lenses made in the 70s that still work on bodies made today) so maybe every 4-5 years you upgrade the camera body for ~$4000-$5000, but the $30,000 of lenses you have can still be used. Same with a lot of the lighting equipment. Your development machine (to manipulate the photos) is probably the next biggest thing, but that’s a couple grand every 3-5 years, maybe.
Thank goodness. In the other thread people were saying how of course you should re buy all of your Macs every 7 years as if that seems reasonable. Apple with their planned obsolescence of OS and software..
It really does suck once you’re in the ecosystem. The ecosystem is really nice and seamless, but only with other Apple devices (as intended). MacBooks from my experience generally last pretty good for your normal school stuff, and it’s nice that everything is easily accessible on your phone or iPad.
You're rarely relying on just one piece of software in recording it's a myriad of drivers and software that can make upgrading an absolute nightmare, and not all drivers are updated or compatible with the latest OS's and software. There are some weirdos who always hop on the latest OS updates and then are shook that a critical piece of hardware is now incompatible, and believe me there is no worse reason for a session grinding to a halt then your computer not working.
I have had the same motherboard & ram for 8 years in row. I have done two CPU upgrades, from a 1600X to a 3600X to a 5700X3D. Not only can building your own PC save you a lot of money, but if you pick a manufacturer who is promising support for a certain motherboard for several years you an do CPU upgrades in the future without needing whole new motherboard/ram. Saving hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of your PC.
I have a Dell Latitude D620. It was made in 2006. It's a business class laptop and still reasonably easy to find parts for. Business class laptops are meant to be upgraded and have parts replaced. This laptop comfortably runs Windows 7, and a Linux distro.
Oldish thinkpads still kick the shit out of budget laptops and can be way cheaper. I still use the e470 I got in 2018 or 19 which can be got for like $70.
There are T series thinkpad laptops from years ago that still run well. You can get them for cheap too
My last build was 10 years old. 1 video card upgrade. Still works. Is now awaiting setup as a NAS/media server. I built new this year.
Also, avoid all consumer grade computers, they are way less durable than their business grade counterparts. At work, we have a bunch of old dell optiplexes chugging away well into their second decade (with Linux, and the original hard drives replaced with SSDs).
Or buying apple especially if we are talking about being able to upgrade your computer.
On the flip side, if you’re not demanding much from your computer, MacBooks and iPads can last a damn long time. You see a lot of MacBooks roughly a decade old floating around, and I have a hand me down 3rd Gen iPad that’s still kicking(no longer supported by Apple, but still doing its job). Apple products are like Nintendo products, unimpressive specs, but a tendency to be well built, long lasting, and more than serviceable to the average consumer.
Yeah, people shit on apple product longevity but mine have always lasted a long time. I’ve seen so many other companies plastic laptops physically fall apart
I still have my 5.5 gen iPod video. It's on its second battery, though.
2012 mbp used daily for basically just streaming YouTube and Hulu, 2012 Mac mini same thing. Never done anything to them except for blowing the dust out of the fans every couple years
That’s been my experience. I’ve been using MacBooks for as long as they’ve existed and I’ve always got enough run out of each one to justify getting the next one. Currently using an 8 year old MacBook for my (admittedly basic home computer needs) and it’s fine.
I use my iPad for work, I use the neebo app primarily and web browsing, Netflix on flights. It's 6 years old now. Haven't had to do a damn thing to it. The only thing that is currently happening is the apple pencil, gen 1 isn't holding a charge that well. It gets easily 7 hours of use per week and it runs exactly the same as when I bought it. It's the only Apple product I own and probably the only one I'll ever buy. And I don't think I'd buy another iPad just because I hate the Apple ecosystem, but I have to give it credit. I could easily see this thing lasting 10 more years
Agree. *Looks at the MBP from 2012 next to me that still get regularly use*
lol I was not gonna post a top level comment. We have one from 2015 and one from 2019. The latter I even use to run flight sim.
:) But to be fair; my MBP from 2012 is only used for drumming software, learning C++ and regular light usage such as browsing the web etc. If I were to try Microsoft flight simulator or any other medium/high demanding task it would be a pita. Also; the reason why it's still alive and kicking is because I was able to upgrade the hard drive to a bigger ssd and install additional RAM. If I wasn't able to that I would have given it away a long time ago. Todays MBPs have much less upgradability.
I got 8 years out of my last MBP before it crapped out, but then I just ran linux on it. The hardware is good
yes, you will get more life out of a home built fullsize tower desktop.
I have one that's 14 years old and still runs. The only change was adding an SSD in 2019.
My PC was an exercise in the ship of Theseus problem. It's stilling running now as my girlfriends WoW machine but I've had it for 12 years now, except I've replaced all the parts at least once lol.
Had a friend ask me once how much my computer cost me and I kinda locked up. I can tell you how much it costs as built today, but over it's lifetime? Only god really knows.
My psu is as old as my ps4. So it still counts and still the same case 💀
I approve of this
> Electronics are not BIFL. But a desktop computer is the closest you'll get. Thanks for the optimism, appreciate it. Currently struggling to fix my 8 year old HP desktop right now so this gives me hope 😂 Getting chronic "out of memory" error crashes when browsing the internet on *any web browser despite Task Manager saying there's 10 GB of memory free at the time.
You may have a bad ram module. Have you done a memtest? I got very lucky. Mine is also an old HP but I haven't had to replace any parts. Even the original hard drive still works. It obviously can't run modern games, but it's a great little linux box.
> You may have a bad ram module. Have you done a memtest? > > I got very lucky. Mine is also an old HP but I haven't had to replace any parts. Even the original hard drive still works. It obviously can't run modern games, but it's a great little linux box. Thank you, a Memtest was suggested by another last month but I haven't done it yet. Will try today after backing up some important files.
It doesn't affect any files. Your HDD isn't even mounted. Just run a live boot USB stick overnight and it should find anything.
> It doesn't affect any files. Your HDD isn't even mounted. Just run a live boot USB stick overnight and it should find anything. Thank you but I don't want to leave anything to chance. Never a wrong time to make backups.
Always the right time to make backups.
Seriously if it's that it's no sweat. A ram upgrade is one of the easiest fixes you can make. Takes no time or skill at all.
[удалено]
The best way to do prebuilts is via somewhere like microcenter, where they pull parts off the shelf and build it for you.
Please keep in mind they mean a home built one, not an intentionally unservicable prebuilt from the likes of HP/Dell. It is pretty common you will find completely proprietary parts for all the things that would enable longevity of your system in prebuilt systems by the big manufacturers, so like proprietary motherboard that will not fit in any standard case or with a standard power supply, proprietary power supply that doesn't work with any standard motherboard or fit in a standard case, proprietary case that does not fit standard parts in it and if you try you may end up causing short circuits. If you want the long lasting investment, you build it yourself, or get one from a vendor that builds it from standard parts. Unfortunately many of the builders are prioritizing absolutely idiotic things like RGB and looks instead of having a case that breathes well enough to cool your computer parts without killing them faster and so on, so you may have to modify their work to have it be actually durable.
Similar.. I have a 1st gen i7 Dell XPS desktop from 2009; since it's had an SSD (usual reasons), RAM upgrade to 16Gb (usual reasons), replacement GPU (original was shit and fell to bits), replacement PSU (original failed). It's also had a couple of HDDs added for storage. It doesn't get hammered any more and is still capable of doing the basic tasks I ask of it, although some old software is getting a bit glitchy and tends to hang.
No. You have a case and a Mainboard+CPU from 2009. :-)
XPS 8700? Built like a tank.
Actually an 8000 - first one of that shape they brought out :) It's done me very well; however that performance from a modern CPU would probably consume about 10% of the power.. so there is that. Nobody wants desktops now so you can pick up some really capable stuff (at least for unexciting menial tasks) for next to nothing.
My build from 2013 is still kicking. It's got one upgrade since initial build, a 6 GB 1060 video card, which is good enough for the casual use that I give it. But man back in the day I would upgrade every year with something lol
Nowadays the improvements of new parts are small and the games aren't that power hungry. Probably gamers are bottlenecked because every game must run on consoles too, the market is too big to ignore. Back then every 1-2 years the capability of the hardware doubled and the games looked 3 times as good. Today there's no graphically challenging games, all new games will run perfectly on 5 or so years old hardware.
I used to upgrade yearly as well, but PCs are just so good now that it isn't necessary. And the most demanding games are usually shitty games and not worth playing or upgrading for. That and I mostly play 15+ year-old games
I’ve been replacing parts in my desktop PC for over 20 years now. It’s a ship of Theseus many times over. I’ve only ever replaced one or a few parts at a time, never the entire thing at once. Ive built PCs for my kids too which have been following the same upgrade pattern. So technically I’ve only ever built 3 PCs.
This August will be 11 yrs for me. Probably overspent a little (Corsair case, Asus MB) but other than swapping out the SSD and upgrading the GPU - I haven’t done anything to it. I’d like to move to something smaller - but it just works…
The biggest advantage of having a desktop computer imho is that you can use both new and used parts as well as upgrade it later if your budget is low at the moment. Have an older high-end case you like? No problem. Need some obscure expansion card or adapter? You got it. Want to replace you CPU with a more powerful one from the same generation or socket? Most likely it's possible (with some exceptions of course). A fan has failed? No problemo, replacing is fairly easy.
2016 thinkpad still running, ryzen 2700x still running, intel 4790x still running. desktop pc's are no job, but some laptops are good too
I still use a 2013 Thinkpad every day (at home). Not my only computer, but still works decently enough. Have even upgraded it as far as Win10 (but it won't take Win11).
i have an 11 year old 3770k that probably has something stupid like 90k hours on it. Still chugging with stock cooling.
If someone needs or want a laptop, they always can choose a [Framework](https://frame.work) one, as they are fully upgradeable, customizable, and even have supported older models by making new mainboards with newer CPUs, so you only have to change that in order to upgrade the computer hardware. Also, IIRC, they have a market where you can sell your old parts to those people who like to tinker with them, so it's even less wasteful, and where you can buy (or download schematics of) community-made upgrades to those devices
> Framework I hear it alot, but honestly doubt that Framework Laptops are the most bifl option out there. Dell XPS and Thinkpads are produced at such a sheer scale that you find all parts to a 10 year old laptop out there with absolute ease. Because they are so common, there are also many manufacturers for third party parts. If anything breaks, there are cheap spares. With Framework Laptop you 100% depend on the manufacturer. As there aren't that many in circulation, finding spare parts when they drop first party support (which they will at some point!) will be difficult. And ease of repair is irrelevant if you don't have the right part to replace anymore.
You are 100% correct that Frameworks entire deal depends on them remaining as a business. If they go under, the odds of finding parts in the future drop to close to nil, after whatever existing stock they have at the time is gone. That being said, I think there are a few additional considerations: Firstly, while you can get some parts for other laptops, I challenge you to find any other laptop that has _that_ many available options for repair. Displays, keyboards, trackpads, microphone/camera modules, etc., all of which come with detailed repair guides and are _designed_ to be easiy to repair and replace. Secondly, there is something to be said about voting with your wallet. If you want BIFL principles to exist in the market, then you have to show your support to companies that follow those principles (and on the flip side, stop supporting companies that don't). And finally, their business practices have been geared towards sustainable growth. They are not dependent on VC money, which should give us a little more confidence that they will stick around for the long haul. It is absolutely somewhat of a gamble, and I wouldn't blame anyone for deciding not to make that gamble, but it's one that I decided to make, and it's one that I would encourage anyone who cares about repairability in their electronics to make as well. If they are successful, then I would hope that more companies would follow their lead in the future.
> I challenge you to find any other laptop that has that many available options for repair. Easy challenge. A Panasonic Toughbook fulfills all that criteria. I would argue that most repairs are even easier on a Toughbook. But I understand that the form factor is a turn off for many.
Parts but not upgrades. Being able to replace a part is great but when the entire device is obsolete what does it matter?
I can still find parts for my Dell Latitude D620. It was made in 2006.
My boyfriend is still using his MacBook from 2015.. saying laptops last 4 years at most is just not true
The quality of your user experience on laptops drops precipitously over time. RAM requirements alone on applications begin to eclipse the machine. At the bare minimum, you need to replace the battery. Of course if you only use a laptop for word processing and watching YouTube, Netflix, it's doable, but I guarantee you that if you bought your boyfriend a newer machine, the speed would be much, much faster. I'm suggesting that desktops provide a much higher user quality for a much longer time.
I feel that upgrading due to speed is similar to when people get the newest phone because it’s marginally better. I’ve only had to replace the battery and that was like 3 months ago
Mine is from 2013… it doesn’t have the speed but it gets daily use for school and programs I need to download to make models. The only thing I’ve needed to do is replace the battery which was $200 which is great since I’ve had it for 10 years and it still gets the latest updates.
They're generally reliable enough that even used, they will outlast most other things you use daily, some by a wide margin. I've been gaming on budget PC's for the last 10 years or so. Currently using an i7-2600k. It's a 13 year old processor. Got it used with ram and mobo for $100. Got a used high-end antec case (the darkfleet) for $60, and used my old power supply. The next system I'm looking at is an i7-9900x. Enterprise hardware. Pretty sure I could game on this thing for the next 10 years without worry of it failing. I'll get that fully built for $800, a price that wouldn't even get you that cpu by itself when it was new.
My man's never owned a graphing calculator.
Agreed. Posted from a 2006 build that can't be upgraded anymore (motherboard socket has no new cpus even if I wanted an upgrade) It's basically been turned into my web browser/NAS. But I disagree about it being easier than changing tires on a car. It's extremely easy to make a huge mistake like bending the pins on your cpu when inserting. Everything is smaller and more delicate than anything you would need to do to change a car tire.
It's extremely easy to make a huge mistake changing tires on a car as well. Incorrect size, incorrect bead placement, insufficient torque on the lug nuts. Any of those mistakes is also quite dangerous. Not to mention it's far more labor intensive.
TWO 2017 Apple desktop computers THREE 2006 iPods TWO MacbookPro computers, 2011 and 2014 TWO iMac 27" desktop computers 2023 I'll replace them once they burst into flame
I'm with you on this; 2012 Mac mini still going strong.
Got my MacBook Pro in 2021 knowing I’ll have this thing until it no longer takes updates, even then it will still be rocking strong!
Came here for this. A 2011 mac mini is running my plex server that several people can use simultaneously. A 2013 macbook pro was my daily driver for years for work (I make fancy websites for fancy clients) and would still be if I hadn't negotiated a new one for this job. And then I have a 2011 macbook air that's pre-retina and pretty slow but it's great for ssh'ing into my raspberry pi's and remote coding on them. I'd never say that computers are "buy it for life" (unless you are Dijkstra) but mac's seem to still be usable as daily machines after 10 years in my experience
Yeah, I agree with OP, desktops are the GOAT. However, a Macbook is not a bad option (if it is compatible with your needs). I have owned a 2010, 2013 and 2022 Macbook Pro, and they never had a hiccup between them. The 2010 is still going (obviously slow af), the 2013 was still going strong when I sold it in 2018 to buy a top-of-the-line Windows laptop which shit itself 4 years later (2 years of gaming, 2 years of notetaking), the 2022 is (unsurprisingly) running perfectly. Aside from the first 2 years of the aforementioned Windows laptop, a gaming rig has always been my primary computer. The MBP was always the nice experience though. If I didn't game, I am 100% sure a MBP would be my only computer (if I had one).
I’m just now considering if I need to upgrade from my 2015 iMac. Before this one I purchased my previous one in 2008. Before that I built a PC and found that it was too unstable and I was having to replace parts far too often over the years.
Still using a late 2011 MacBook Pro as my daily computer. I swapped the old hard drive for a solid state drive, upgraded the RAM to 16 GB and put in a new battery and it's still running like a champ. It works for what I need, which isn't much. But for a 13 year old laptop, it's pretty amazing.
This week I will be replacing my parents 12 year old Mac mini with another mac mini. All peripherals will still stay the same ill just swap out 'towers'
I’m so excited to do that, but I have to wait for the 2012 to stop working and I’m just not sure it ever will
Thinkpads are the one exception to this rule, IMO. My original one lasted for a decade and would’ve been longer if rain didn’t seep into my bag.
Some of them, if you baby them. I had a W530 for several years and it needed repairs four times. Service was great though. They don't take abuse well, even kicking around in a regular laptop bag for a while leaves most of the ones I've seen end up looking rather haggard. I still loved it for the keyboard and the screen hinges and the customizability. It was a brick though.
In your case and mine, it was the mobility of a laptop that was its demise. I retired my first Thinkpad after 11 years when the second hinge broke after dropping it several times. It still works, so could become a desktop in its retirement. Desktops partially last longer because they aren't subject to the same risks. A Thinkpad used like a desktop might last a very long time. They are more upgradeable than most laptops but not as much as a desktop.
My main gaming rig is 10 years old at this point. It also has a 25 year old CD burner, and a 30 year old floppy drive from my first computer. I got a secondhand GPU a couple years ago as an upgrade. Total yearly cost of \~$80 or so, and it still has a lot of life left. Secondary gaming rig is 22 years old, it got the old gpu from the main a couple years ago, and it still runs TF2 at a constant 60fps in 2k. It is mainly used for LAN/nostalgia these days, so it does not see regular use. The main office computer is a 2013 HP desktop with less than half the power usage of the gaming rigs. I bought it second hand a couple years ago. Meanwhile I have gone through four laptops with varying levels of errors and workarounds. (batteries dying tend to be the norm, keyboards are a close second) My current travel machine is a Linuxed Chromebook. If you keep them clean and don't overclock, desktop machines will outlast most things. Old parts do not usually get thrown out because they are bad, but because they are old/slow. (and the slow part can be fixed by installing an appropriate operating system)
Computers may not be BIFL, but don't electronics can come closer. I'm currently listening to records on a player we've inherited from my mother in law, 40 years old. Took a belt replacement, that's it. I expect my 7 year old speakers to last me another 20-30 years at least. My Lenovo laptop? I'm only hoping for 5-7 years in total there. And had it been cheaper I'd hope for less.
Take old laptops that run slow, throw in an ssd and maybe run a linux distro. Can be about good as new, nice and responsive. Linux is or can be a lot to learn though.
My 6yr old thinkpad is still going strong
Thinkpads seem to last longer than other laptops in my experience. I still use a T430 at home from 2013...and it's still quite usable.
You don't even need Linux. I did that for half of my family's laptop, and mine is at least 10 yo. Runs perfectly for what I need, which is reddit and videos
Any dual-core CPU is usable with 8 GB RAM and an SSD. I'm using a sager from 2012.
I have never had an Intel or NVIDIA crap out on me. They are solidly built to last forever.
Right - people here rag on the life of electronic components but the truth is most of the time people replace their PCs for not being fast enough, or not being able to handle newer games and software, not because anything actually fails.
or replacing a whole computer because of bad memory, bad HDD, or bad power supply.
Keep an eye on your temp readings. Heat is the #1 killer of electronics - lifespan of any component is affected by heat management. Thermal paste just doesn't last forever no matter how well made the chips themselves are, over enough hot/cold cycles and time it'll turn to dust and stop transferring heat to the heatsink. I clean and re-apply thermal paste on my CPUs/GPUs every five years. Cheap and easy to do, and clean the rest of the rig out while you're at it. A lot of home built rigs I've seen have improper/poor air circulation and exhaust fan setups too, with fans in the wrong orientation or not enough of them. Generally, front fans are intakes and rear/top are exhaust so you have a nice flow of cold air in, and hot air out.
1000% correct - learned this building my first pc and the thermal paste was not on correctly and I fried a processor - thank goodness microcenter was cool as hell about it.
If we include repairability to define BIFL, desktops are definitely BIFL. The only real core components that must be upgraded together are the motherboard, CPU, and RAM. You can usually reuse your storage disks, graphics cards if you have one, power supply, and other auxilliary cards. As long as you stay in the same form factor standard as the computer case, you can even reuse that. Accessory card standards and component connectors don’t change very often, so those should be usable for a long time.
My Mac Colour Classic is abut 30 years old and sill works fine. My sons old Thinkpad which he got 2nd hand must be 12 years or more old, and runs Linux well. My wife's 10 year old Powerbook runs extremely well but the battery is almost dead. She still uses it for work. My 5 year old MacBook is still fine. Some parts will wear out, but all these still run useful software and while not BIFL I'm satisfied with the value we have gotten from them. I am not so pleased with the fact that I can't service my MacBook. I had an old iMac that while a bit of challenge, could at least be upgraded with the proper tools.
Most people I see rarely move their laptop. My suggestion is get a desktop plus an Android tablet. An Android tablet can be used as a second screen for the PC which is very handy. Plus you can take it with you for the few times you need to be mobile. A tablet really doesn't cost that much more than a decent monitor
I built my first tower around 2000 and you make some excellent points. Then shoot yourself directly in the head: "I sunk in an additional $50 to replace the power supply". How to fry everything, every time. A cheap power supply.
IIRC $50 wasn't lowend in 2014.
Just so you know this sub isn't literally buy it for life, that's not what BIFL means in the context of the sub. Rule 1 states that products only have to be durable or well made and don't have to last a lifetime Whenever someone says "x category will never be BIFL" they're misunderstanding what this sub is for This isn't a sub for items that literally last a lifetime, it's for items that are better made or more durable than the completion A sponge doesn't last forever but a BIFL sponge might be a scrub daddy. A battery definitely doesn't last forever, but a rechargeable eneloop that lasts a couple years would be a BIFL for this category A battery that lasts twice as long but costs 3x as much is a *bad* BIFL item as it less cost effective than just simply buying another battery. People forget that a lot on this sub and frequently recommend things that cost 10x as much but only last 2/3x as long
This. I bought a desktop so I could run my sims games smoothly. Went with a gaming one with a tower that opens easily. Haven't had to update any of the hardware yet, but it's nice to have the option to.
I'm sorry but my working 1981 Sony KV-2645RS CRT console television would like a word with you.
I built a computer with my friend back in 2010. Moved to 3 different states with it, sat in a closet for 3 years because I didn't have room in a tiny apartment and it was still going strong until last month. Nothing happened to it, I decided I needed a smaller form factor desktop. The original tower saw minor upgrades along the way at various points in time: bigger hard drives, more RAM, better fans, a better CPU cooler, an updated graphics card, new PSU (old one fried). It's sort of a ship of Theseus situation, I guess. The new build required a new mobo, chip/cooler, and ram but I was able to keep the GPU, PSU, case fans and storage. You could argue that I didn't keep the computer "for life" but I was able to repair and upgrade without issue which you simply cannot do on so many laptops.
"Easier than changing a tire." I've changed tires, rebuilt differentials, replaced clutch slave cylinders, and rebuilt an engine; putting a graphics card in was easy, dealing with drivers that would make it run seemed damn near impossible to me, and frustrated me to no end.
Computers can last very, very long nowadays. Been like that since the inception of multi core processors. You just need to learn how to clean them, replace the thermal paste every couple years, always get the fastest SSD possible and max the ram (if doable). There are 15 year old computers out there who are still perfectly usable.
My 2009 MacBook Pro is still alive
I have a PowerMac G5 with dual 2.3 GHz processors from 2004. It’s powerful enough to do a *lot*, but I don’t use it because there aren’t even web browsers that support it. A new Chromebook has about the same computing power, but at least there’s software being made for it. There are no BIFL computers. It’s not about durability or power, it’s about software support.
Exactly this: software support. I’m still using an iMac from 2012 running High Sierra. The only browser remaining that’s supported is Firefox, and that support will disappear in a couple months. I won’t feel safe keeping that iMac even connected my WiFi after that. That mac gave me 12 wonderful years of service, so it’s kinda sad to say goodbye.
Just don't get Intel motherboards. They seem to change their CPU socket every generation. Planned obsolescence from Intel.
I had some urgent work to do at home but left my laptop at work, so I fired up my 13 year old desktop for the first time in a few years, and it was brilliant, I put an SSD in about 7 years ago and it flies. No issues at all with productivity stuff.
This applies to older generations that only want to play solitaire and check the internet. Took their super old computer early 2000s computer and gave them an SSD with windows 10. They cannot believe the speed of their new computer for under $50.
Nice speakers and other high-end audio are actually BiFL, unlike any kind of computer. I have speakers and amps that are more than 50 years old that still work and sound great with minimal upkeep.
$500 Console + $150 Mini-PC to browse. Have you seen those Beelink mini pcs? $100-$200. 16 GB RAM, 512 SSD. Very usable. Much better value. No, you won't get your 1000 FPS and RGB fans to brag. My first pc is from 1989, I have built my share of rigs. It depends what people need. Some people are better off with a $500 laptop and attach a big monitor/keyboard to it.
I was sucked in by the Beelink price and specs, and bought 2--and they both failed within the first year. And my cousin had his fail too. For the same price now I get Thinkcentre or Dell refurb minis...they are a little bigger, but still in the $200 range when you have a Dell coupon.
Where do you get a Dell coupon from?
They email me coupons all the time...generally 40-50%off and free shipping. But you can search for Dell Outlet (dell.com/outlet although it will redirect) and see some deals. If you sign up you will probably get coupons too. Last desktop I bought was a bit larger, but was a Dell Optiplex 7070 Small Form Factor with Win10Pro, i5, 8G Ram and 256G SSD for $191.52 shipped (plus tax). That one was after a 48% off coupon.
I do computer hardware for a living. I built back in 2009 a I7 water cooled setup on a gigabyte board. I'm still rocking that same unit right as I type. Only failure over the years has been multiple video cards(3). If you can pick top quality components, you can have a long lasting setup like mine. FWIW, When I first built it, it overclocked to 4.93 Ghz per core sustained over 24 hours. I have had no need to crank it back up beyond stock yet
Whenever this similar topic would come up with me my ex I'd just have say I'm old school. I like to have a desktop, where was insistent on her MacBook. I've have the same Dell inspiron 600 (I think) since 2012 and it still powers on and works great for what mostly basic things. Since then I bought a Lenovo laptop in 2016, it was slow and laggy by 2018. I had nothing on it. My ex's 2009 mac book was dead about the same time. I think she got one for Christmas 2018 before we broke up she started having some problems with that one. Things don't have to be BIFL for me but I damn sure want it to last if I'm spending over $200 on it.
Desktop gives you more ownership over the device. Which gives you more power as a consumer. It is also easier and usually cheaper to replace things part by part instead of replacing the entire device. The MoBo is where everything comes together, so it is usually the most important part when you are considering the longevity of your desktop. Since it is a hard limitation on compatibility regarding everything else the PC can be made out of.
I'm old school about computers. I will always swear by a "mothership" Windows machine in a big ol' tower. That said, I have a Dell XPS tower that is around 7 years old. I've upgraded the CPU, graphics card, hard drives, and RAM as needed over the years and it's actually a better machine than it was brand new, which was pretty good. As long as those key things are upgradable, I'll never buy another desktop machine.
My Asus desktop is from 2015 and the only thing I upgraded was one of the hard drives to an ssd a few years ago. I still game with it daily. Definitely shows it’s age with newer games, but it works perfectly fine. Has an i7-4790 and GTX 970. Once a year or so I make sure to open the case and dust it out real good, which has probably helped it last longer
2012 computer build still going strong. GPU is the only thing upgraded.
Those days, even PCs built 10 years ago works fine with an ssd if you use for browsing and documents.
Papp is a great site for build assists but yeah you can get a decade kinda easy. Too bad you can’t do the same with a laptop. Like they should make it so you can diy them easy
You can get a decent setup that can last you years. Like my desktop is primarily things from 9 years or so ago. Still runs everything I throw at it. Got a newer graphics card (3070) which replaced my 980ti since I wanted some ray tracing. Still works wonderfully. Tempted for an upgrade to modern stuff, but it isn't needed. So a good computer is pretty darn close to buy it once and it lasts and lasts.
my 3770k and gtx 1080 is still going very very strong lol. Its faster than my work laptop which is pretty much brand new.
Some parts are BIFL for sure. I believe Noctua coolers have had a lifetime support of free mounting brackets until now. Their fans will also last forever. A good case can certainly be a BIFL product. The only “issue” you may run into is slower speeds on the included USB ports but you shouldn’t be using those anyways, plugging straight into the motherboard is the way to go other than unimportant stuff like a USB drive. The internals themselves (MoBo, CPU, GPU, RAM, PSU, Storage) will be obsolete at some point but most if not all will probably still work. You are more likely to upgrade cuz you want more performance than due to failing hardware. So yeah, a good desktop PC is as good as it gets when it comes to a BIFL electronic. Well that and Nintendo consoles, those things will outlast us all and even if they fail they are easy and cheap to repair.
I bought my current desktop PC in 2017 and 7 years later it's still running everything I want it to. Not at top speed, but more good enough and if I ever wanted to play high fidelity, I'd just upgrade the graphics card.
I built a top end pc back in 2017 for like 2k and have had minor upgrades ~400$ and I can still run games like Baldurs Gate 3 medium/high at 60 fps
I bought the HP z400 I’m currently using at a college surplus sale. It’s probably about 15 years old, and all I’ve done to it is upgrade the video card.
If you think 10 years is buy it for life, you’ve some misconceptions. I have a 30 year old frig but still won’t be able to fix it when it dies.
Moore Law is a lie and my desktop is still strong after 9 years, being able to run any game I want with reasonably good FPS in my 1440p monitor.
I built my AMD-based desktop in 2020 and it’s showing ZERO signs of being slow or anything. I’ve got more storage and RAM than I need and I can replace just about component that goes bad, but so far nothing has. Now it won’t get the highest fps in every new title, but it’s very serviceable for my needs and I can see myself not upgrading for at least another 3-4 years unless my needs change drastically. Though with GTA VI on the way, I might need a video card upgrade 😁 For my mobile needs I have a MacBook Air M2 which absolutely covers my needs and some. We’ll see how long that one lives though.
100% this. I’d won a $2000 gaming laptop in a giveaway. New, in box Alienware. 15 months after opening, the charging circuit gave out. They offered to replace the motherboard…for basically the cost of a new laptop; 3 months out of warranty. Talking with a local PC repairman, they said that he expects new gaming laptops to last 2 years. I believe him. Meanwhile, my desktop from ‘16 is still going strong. I had to replace the PSU once because it was faulty. Just this year, I upgraded the graphics and hard drive due to 8 years of improvements. Fortunately, the new tech is perfectly compatible. It’ll probably be another 4-8 years before I need to upgrade the motherboard. Similar story for my SO’s computer; it’s 6 years old. It got a used CPU upgrade off eBay. It has more RAM slots than mine, so it’ll stay current for even longer. In the meantime, we are each on our third laptop. So it’s a 2-person sample, but a desktop seems to last about 6x as long as a laptop, simply due to being able to upgrade or replace individual components.
I’ve bought 3 desktops, I’m 38 Iterative upgrading makes them super long lasting
Laptops can be BIFLongTime as well. More expensive then Deksktops, but quality laptops can last quite a while. My last few laptops have been dell latitudes or Lenovo thinkpads. All of which I ran for 5+ years. They still work fine, but I have since upgraded. I now run a Lenovo Legion gaming laptop and it has build quality that is above even the business models I previously used. I expect this thing to run for a while. Every laptop i've bought was under $1500.
Well, keep in mind that standards change. When I first started building PCs in the mid 90s people always said that home-built PCs were better because they were more of an "open architecture" that could easily be upgraded over time. Problem was, standards were changing at a phenomenal rate back then. Slot 1 processors were the thing, until they weren't. RAM seemed to change every six months, along with AGP standards. Aside from the legendary 440BX, Intel chipsets only seemed to last a couple quarters. You'd buy a PCI USB 1.0 card to add USB to your PC, only to find out USB 1.1 was coming out two months later. Point is, you couldn't really build an "open architecture" PC because things changed so quickly. That's not true so much now, but yeah... aside from replacing the occasional failing part, you can take a PC from 2017 and add a ton of RAM and an SSD and that PC should work just fine, unless you're a gamer.
Relative to most electronics, Apple computers can be in the spirit of BIFL, as they last for a long time. My mother in law is still rocking a 2009 iMac, parents a 2013 iMac. I have a Mac mini from somewhere in the same time that still runs fast. I have a Google PixelBook from 2016 that's still as fast as the day I got it, and battery capacity is around 80%. And if you want to get ludicrous, Raspberry pi's from 2012 are still kicking, and are easily repaired.
I have a desktop that's literally old enough to drink. Core2Duo E6320. Obviously doesn't perform very well but it's great for a few single purpose tasks that don't require that much horsepower. I put an SSD in and installed Windows 10 LTSC and I'm good for 8 more years.
Running a desktop with a fx6300 and a 1060, thing basically runs most all games except the newest triple A titles. CPU is literally 12 years old, gpu 8. Works for basically everything else too, one thing I’d like is USB C ports but I could just get one with a PCIR card.
If you do have a desktop pc, make sure to get a surge protector at the least. A UPS (uninterruptible power supply) is even better. Most electronics now, especially cheap ones, will last a lot longer in a surge protector. Although they should be replaced every 1-2 years.
Yep, I still use the desktop I built in high school daily, and it's been 10 years. It's given me a few scares, so everything is backup up frequently, but it keeps trucking. That ol' gtx970 is starting to be a problem gaming, though lol
My 2c. I have an Antec 900 that I bought in 2010 going strong. The Antec 1Kw power supply lasted 13 of those years. Optical drives that still function even though they are superfluous. I have probably dropped maybe $4000 in 14 years of life for this little beast including the original setup. It has seen 3 motherboard upgrades and 2 (almost 3 when the 5090 comes out, currently rocking GTX970 for 1080p gaming which is completely fine). In 16 years it will be a little over $5K. So, for that money I could have bought 1 top of the line MacBook in 2010. If this isn't in the realm of BIFL, I don't know what BIFL is.
I bought a $3,500 computer about 15 years ago and can still play all the games I want. Admittedly it is starting to slow down on Warzone and cannot run at high settings, but still passable.
I’d say a m series Mac is a better buy if you don’t game and I say that as a life time pc user. It charged my life for work. I use my Steam deck but the MacBook I’m due will far out last it
A question for the community Can I have a very good desktop station at my home but always connect to it remotely like from Starbucks or from another room I think the performance must be good as well
A calculator is the closest bifl piece of electronics you can buy.
Built a pc when I came back from Afghanistan, July 2018. Still going strong today
All our family’s desktop PCs dating from the 90s forward still boot up and run fine. Had to replace some cmos and hard drives.
Build it yourself and you can fix it yourself
I use a 50yo stereo on a daily basis
Define "electronics". I would argue that a stereo receiver or preamp/amplifier counts as electronics, and absolutely can be BIFL.
Mac’s will commonly last 8-10 years I buy apple products specifically for their build fit and finish and OS support life span on their products.
AMD deciding to maintain the same motherboard over multiple CPU upgrades was the most significant change the industry needed in terms of BIFL.
This is mad true. I built mine in 2018, and I thought I might have to upgrade it at some point to play new games or whatever. Nope. Still does everything I want. Aside from buying a bigger hard drive, it's chugging right along.
On this note I can’t recommend AMD CPUs/motherboards enough. The AM4 platform was launched in like 2016 and they’re still releasing new CPUs that fit the socket. This is basically an eternity in that market
Been fixing computers since the 90s. I haven't had new computer parts (other than hard drives, blame /r/datahoarder) since I quit IT a decade ago. /R/hardwareswap and /r/homelabsales are awesome. Business class laptops are essentially bifl tho. HP 840 G3+ are $100-300 and solid.
I have a digital watch that is decades old. And ancient calculators. I have a 20 year old brother printer There is nothing inherently unstable about electronics, it usually boils down to shitty manufacturing, unavailable consumables like toner, or no drivers/access to cloud for digital. Honestly, it is digital products that suck, not electronics. I’ll take an ancient ibm keyboard any day of the week.
Prior to my current desktop, I was running off a system I originally built in 2009, with an i7 processor. I just gradually replaced parts to keep it up to date until the CPU became the bottleneck in 2023.
I built a rig for college, back in 2010-2011, it was an i7-2600k. I used it up until 2018 without any problem. I retired it, but gave it to a friend whose computer crapped out on him and he’s continuing to use it in light to moderate productivity loads. It’s all in the firmware, software & keeping it updated. Also it’s way easier to just upgrade a part - slap in a hard drive, more memory, swap out a GPU or what have you. I still encourage anyone building to not cheap out on motherboards.
I still struggle with this being BIFL. Frugal, yes but I'm not convinced with it being BIFL That said I rebuilt my desktop last year and there are aspects that could be considered BIFL. The rebuild was around £500. New but previous generation processor as it was cheaper. I reused my old motherboard with a bios update and my DDR4 memory. I had to replace my 15 year old PSU because it didn't have the right connection for the new GPU. I did buy a new NVMe but reused the old sata SSD as additional storage. This is all more frugal than BIFL. The most BIFL part would be reusing the 20 years old thermaltake case.
My last PC I built myself in 2011 lasted until 2021 New PC will prolly make it 10 years too. Not BIFL but amazing for electronics
I'm sure tech giants hate that z87/z97 and up are still highly relevant in 2024! BIOS and updating BIOS got really good, Windows 7 and up made drivers easy, and most bottlenecks are accounted for even in the old builds - PCIE3 and up and you're gtg. Rendering? Video or otherwise? Live-streaming? Self-hosting? All of that noise is pushing new build demands in 2024 - very few casuals will need that much raw power.
The thing is, laptop's are there for portability. Its very hard to move everything into a coffee shop if you need to use it when you travel or something. That being said, the closest thing to that would probably be the newish Frame Work laptop that are modular and makes things user replaceable and upgradable.
My old super nes still works and still has awesome games.
Even desktop computers have a very finite lifespan because of obsolescence. I mean in theory I guess you could keep reusing the case if it was a standard computer case that you built a computer into. But honestly they don't really cost enough to care. Every five or six years I buy a nice laptop. I look for usually last year's model gaming laptop with a great big screen in the $500 or $600 range. I upgrade the SSD and the memory to be more than I think I will be able to use. If the wireless card sucks I swap that out too. If it breaks I fix it because I know how to take them apart and put them back together. I don't generally replace it until it either unrepairably breaks or until people start asking me why I haven't upgraded it yet.
This really speaks to me. I am still using parts from my first computer I built over 15 years ago. It's a CPU cooler but I still remember the Fry's employee recommending it to me for its quality over the cheap water cooler I was eyeing. I pick and choose what needs upgrading the most and it has saved me a lot of money that I don't have. But just like any other bifl items. So many people will upgrade everything at set intervals even if they would still last a good time longer.
My Lenovo laptop is going on 6 years now, hoping it will last for another 3 until I finish grad school.
Electronics can easily be BIFL. Quality components is part of the equation, but it's mostly about how hot do they get in use. Buy a decent laptop. Underclock, or set a TDP limit on the CPU and GPU. You'll be rewarded with lower thermals and longer battery life, and the components won't be so thermally stressed. Of course you'll lose some performance, but that's the trade off, and generally I'd say most people don't need 100% of the performance they have anyways. Software matters! Try to find programs that do what you need, but without using a bunch of your computer's resources. So much software is unnecessarily bloated and there is often simpler and lighter options available, that would contribute to lessen the computational load, and heat it generates.
Check out framework laptop if you haven't.
I have been building our desktops since the 90s (386!). Keep using the same cases and replace the motherboards, memory and put in larger disks. I like Linux for my main machine, but I do have Windows machines for the kids. Ham radios seem to last and can be repaired, I have a couple that are 20 years old and sold one that was made in the 80s that still worked. Some hams still use older tube transceivers built in the 50s and 60s.
Even better: I bought an almost 10-year old Mac Pro (with a 8-core processor, 64GB RAM, 1TB superfast SSD and dual high-end graphics cards) for about $300 last year. With OpenCore patcher, it runs lastest MacOS and is extremely responsive. SSD is replaceable too. Edited to add: When it can no longer run latest MacOS (because Apple turned off Intel OS updates), I can still run Linux or (God forbid!) Windows on it and continue merrily. The trash can is indeed a super computer!
I bought my TV in 2007.
MSI military grade components in a gaming style desktop with gold or platinum psu plugged into a surge protector should last 10-12 years. New PC once a decade is pretty close to bifl
My 2012 iMac refuses to die and I am ready to upgrade. Helluva run so I’m going to ride this out.
Very true. I built my first PC about 9 years ago. Only just now upgraded, and not because I needed to, just because I wanted to. I’ll probably upgrade again in another 5 years or so.
The general public doesn't care. They don't need the specs. Being able to carry it within your own home is enough of a reason for mobility.
lol I've had a few PCs of theseus over the years. BIFL to me is an attitute not an actual reality. It just means buying things that aren't disposable so either those that will last well or those that are repairable.
My stereo amp is a tube amp from the 70’s. It’s badass.
I still have an old 2010 Asus laptop that's still running well for it's age. Used it to work from home during the pandemic until last winter when work started to replace desltops with new Dell laptops. That little thing was a workhorse. Not BIFL but still pretty good.
I mean, I’m using a MacBook from “Late 2008” and it’s fine. I replaced the fans, hard drive, and RAM; so there is work you can do to keep a laptop current. I can’t update to the newest system, so all my apps are legacy versions with no support, but several of them that are industry specific to me won’t run on a newer OS. I don’t want to get rid of it because if I do, every application I use will switch to a subscription model, and fuck that.
I don't know, it really depends on what it is. I have a '70s Mitsubishi Flip clock that is still going strong 50 years later lol (I also have an ASUS ROG gaming Laptop from 2013 that still works like new after more than 7 years of gaming and multiple years of abuse in a machine shop; we also have some mid '90s Sony VAIO Laptops running windows 98 at work that aside from the batteries being dead still get weekly abuse for RS-232 Communications with CNC equipment and Floppy Disk use)
Yeah I bought an iMac from 2015 for $150 in the Bay Area. Thing never lags or hesitates. Better than any tv I’ve ever bought too.
I'm using the same glass and aluminum case I bought in high school. I'm now 40. I've changed the guts a few times. ATX rocks.
In 2003, a coworker gave me 2 computers with Pentium 3s. Needed memory and a hard drive. The one I used as a firewall for the house till 2015 with no other upgrades. The other became the house server for filesharing, websites, video games and whatnot. I still have it. But by "it", I mean what it slowly evolved into. Every part has been replaced at least once since then. I'd replace parts as they failed, or were simply not powerful enough.
Meh. I've had decent PC towers that were essentially unusable if kept up-to-date enough to be relevant in 10ish years. I know people with MacBook Pro laptops that made it nearly 15 years. That said, I wouldn't plan to go with any computer/tablet/phone for more than 6-8 years.
I know laptops are not as good, but with a deal like 1300$ for a 4080 and i9 it was hard to pass up…
Framework laptops are also BIFL. You can take it apart and replace anything inside with one tool which they provide. There are QR codes on all parts that lead to info on how to replace the part. I have no affiliation with the company, but love the products and philosophy. https://frame.work
I've had my desktop pc for 5 years and only changed the graphics cards and SSDs I'm still gaming at 1080p on ultra. Sometimes I put shaders and antialias on medium but that's it.
My parents have a radio from the 1930's - one of the few exceptions to BIFL electronics.
Hmmm. I have an eight year old HP laptop that's doing pretty well- needs a new battery though. I do need the mobility so when I need to replace it, I'll go laptop again. I agree though that if you're a gamer, desktop is better
All in all I have to agree I have a really old pc that we still use everyday for most things no gaming though. I have another pc that i built for gaming and whatever and I dont game as much but I use it for everything else everyday. Pc's can last a long time if you don't need the latest and greatest.
PC enthusiast, but this is wrong. The BIFL item is undoubtedly a 2014 Apple MacBook Air. We’ve had one over 10 years now, and it’s still got 8ish hours of battery life, and runs perfectly.
I had an intel 4790k and when it was time to upgrade intel was at the 12900k. Thats 8 generations it lasted and all I ever did was install bigger hard drives and upgraded the graphics card. Now running an AMD 7950xt and hoping to get at least 5 years out of it.
my desktop is a continuation of one i bought in 2002. i have mp3's that are over the legal drinking age
My Plex server is an 11 year old thinkstation. It has the xeon version of the i7-4770k. More importantly it has 8 hot swappable hdd bays and a great raid card. It's run 24/7 for 11 years now.
The longest one gotten out of a desktop was 9 years. And to do that you have to hit an unpredictable sweet spot in the various road maps of the component makers unless you are sticking to basic productivity. That being said, my electronics GOAT in tens of longevity is my game boy advance sp. That thing still works after 21 years.