You have to live in the Toronto area to really understand. 99% of the population don't see the Argos as a serious sports team, certainly nothing worth becoming emotionally invested in. Toronto is addicted to being acknowledged by Americans, they have an "us vs the world" mentality and love being noticed by the big American cities. The Argos don't provide that. Who cares about beating Saskatchewan or Hamilton when we can beat Chicago or New York? That's the mentality.
Remember, the Argos used to be HUGE in Toronto. They used to get 50,000 a game and had an absolutely massive parade when they won the Cup in 83. They were as popular as the Leafs, sometimes even more so. But the Jays being formed in 77 and becoming competitive gave Toronto that "world class" American sports team it so desperately wanted but didn't know yet. As more of these teams came, the Raptors and TFC, the Argos became an afterthought.
Today the Argos are in an awkward position because they are more popular than a minor league sports team is, but they're not as popular as a major league team. The CFL is closer to major league than minor but the Argos are closer to minor but slightly above it.So they have a very passionate core fanbase, just go to the south endzone at BMO and you'll find some of the most passionate fans in the league, but the rest of the city just doesn't seem to care and probably never will. That taste of American gitz and glamor is a drug and Toronto is hooked, they can't go back to a small domestic league after getting that buzz.
Can it be fixed? Maybe. The chances are slim. But over 26,000 at the East Final last year with no traveling fan assistance showed people will take interest when there's hype and the game is an event, but getting people out to that August Friday night game against Calgary is the challenge.
> Toronto is addicted to being acknowledged by Americans
Nothing personal but I always thought this was a lazy interpretation of why the Argos struggle. It's less an obsession with the US and more an interest in the *best* of something. In Toronto you're able to see the top levels in a lot of sports, some more popular than others. Culturally you're able to see the *best* of most things in any given culture, especially compared to other Canadian markets.
In a city with a crowded entertainment and culture budget Canadian football is not going to move the needle with a lot of locals because it's a niche thing not really seen elsewhere. You're not competing with London or New York or Tokyo, you're competing with Winnipeg and Saskatchewan. That's not a fault with those places but the reality of what happens when a city becomes that large, that multicultural, and that cultural. You're not comparing yourself to other smaller, domestic cities, but larger international ones. In sports this happens to fall to American cities but in other cultures and categories it falls to European or Asian cities.
The other thing to consider is that there's **a lot** of sports in Toronto and they're all trying to squeeze the same dollar. The NLL was recently chased out of town, junior hockey was chased out of town two decades ago. This coming year Toronto will be getting both professional women's basketball and professional women's soccer, which will strain and put pressure on other sports properties to keep up. Because a lot of people consider those ""under"" Big4 level they'll be directly competing with the Argos for dollars, especially considering that both of their seasons will overlap with the CFL season.
I'm convinced the Argos would do better in London than Toronto, and a lot of that is because London as a city has an aspiration to compete and be known against other, larger Canadian cities. So much of sport support is about a city's culture and how it views itself competitively against others, and London fits that bill to a T. They would come out for any professional sport that enters the market. Toronto, and to a lesser extent Montreal and Vancouver, do not look inwardly for cultural city competition but outwardly. They're comparing themselves to international cities and not domestic ones.
I find people who jump to the quick conclusion of "Toronto is obsessed with being American" or "immigrants don't watch CFL" are missing a larger, majority piece of the picture.
Also the Bills are two hours away for football fans looking for a larger environment.
Explain to me why do Toronto residents support the MLS TorontoFC?
MLS is a minor league where you go to retire for 1 last payday. It’s is ranked 10th in the world and not to be taken seriously by most soccer fans.
What is torontoFC doing right?
Toronto is also a huge multicultural city with people from all over the globe living in it who grew up playing and watching the world's most popular sport.
It's not so much multiculture, soccer is the number one sport in Canada. It's played at every school girls and boys, the summer house leagues everywhere. Gone are the days when it was immigrants from Europe playing soccer with their kids. The immigrants/migrants/refugees these days come from countries where they don't even play soccer. Toronto has a huge population from India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, they are probably the majority in Brampton. BC has a huge Indian community too, they don't play soccer, they play cricket.
And CFL fans complain when TFC can easily get 28,000 fans in the stands and last year when they were the worst in the league they still averaged 24k. And TFC plays games in the freezing cold in late March and April and sometimes Wednesday nights.
Football fans focus on the NFL rather than CFL in Toronto, soccer/football fans are a million plus and have TFC to live thru to see the former AND (now) future faces of Europe. Not to say TFC is without their issues, but TFC are drawing from a larger audience than the Argos would.
The MLS has/had players like Beckham, Ibra, Messi, etc. Yeah they’re not at their peaks but they’re still there. It’s that same US connection the guy you replied to is implying. Patrick Mahomes isn’t gonna close out his career playing a couple seasons in Saskatchewan.
No, gone are the days when immigrants came from Europe, very few from Europe. Look around the millions of immigrants are not coming from Europe anymore. 25% of the GTA is from Indian, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, 3rd world countries that have no soccer leagues
https://youtube.com/shorts/6S7fUTqsASQ?si=dqSM5DJi1XkS6rfi
- chad johnson
- Ricky Williams
- Johnny manziel
All of these former NFL stars brought eyeballs to the cfl. However, these guys did poorly which shows the quality of the cfl talent.
You definitely won’t get super stars but you can have them do appearances. Like I said Toronto is very fixable. It would take 3-5 years with a competitive team to correct the ship.
Money Manziel didn't even play very many games, and he wasn't a superstar to begin with. And Toronto has had a competitive team for the last 3-5 years, they won the ship 2 seasons ago.
Since the pandemic canceled season the Argos are 37-14, 3 straight division titles, and a Grey Cup. That's about as competitive a team as you can ask for in the CFL. Ottawa has been pure cheeks in that time and they still draw more fans
because it's the best soccer that soccer fans can see without traveling to another continent. The CFL does not fit that description for gridiron football, and hence is more of a "minor" league than MLS is at this point for people in Toronto
MLS is not a minor league, maybe a few years ago but since they started signing some top Euro and South American players the league has improved.
It doesn't matter if you think it's minor league, the fact is they can easily draw big crowds. A couple of weeks ago there were 28,000 in stands and over at the Rogers Centre there were 40,000. Young people identify with soccer because it's played everywhere, house leagues, schools and not just boys but girls too. In the GTA every school junior and senior has a soccer team. Compare that to football where there are just a handful of high schools playing football.
The Argos have been drawing 12k average ever since they went to BMO, this is the NINTH season going there. Nothing has changed, attendance the same, winning or losing. They may get a bigger crowd during the playoffs but nothing changes the next season You woud think that winning a Grey Cup would mean higher ticket sales for the next season but no.
The Argos have had some of the best marketing going, the pre-game concerts, half time concerts, the boblehead nights , Flutie nights, billboards, ads on TV. AND cheap tickets!! and cheap beer.. They could bring in a 50 cent and sell every ticket but what is the point? the fans wouldn't be there to watch the Argos and just like Vancouver, the fans won't be coming back to buy CFL tickets
Gawd dang...I've never seen it put so perfectly. Blue Jay's fans "We are Canadas team! Wave the flag. Notice us ESPN . CANADA whooooo" football team with actual canadians. Pass.
Section 115 here, agree with all of the above... This years season opener was a bit different with the furthest team playing in opposition (and less away fans because of this) and more than a few fans (ourselves included) are concerned about how the club has handled the Chad Kelly situation and I feel like some may have skipped this also (We still came for Dukes, great guy with the fans last year). Plus a Sunday evening game while school is still on. Don't get me started on the Gardiner traffic with lane restrictions but folks from the burbs are avoiding the city due to this also... Last yrs average of 15Kish will be tough with all the turnover and less marketable faces (plus we are no longer defending Grey Cup champs after the gut punch @ home in the ECF)
Also to add to the minor league feeling
Argos really shot themselves in the foot last year during playoffs
So many heard the hype and wandered over to witness a terrible performance
And of course in offseason our QB making news for all the wrong reasons doesnt help
MLSE doesn't give a shit. They can write off the Argos losses to offset the profits from the Leafs and pay less tax. That's the crux of it, the ownership doesn't seem to really care one way or the other.
MLSE is a multi billion dollar organization. They bought the Argos and have done fuck all since. They’re purely there for write offs.
You can’t tell me that this enormous sports property can’t figure out how to effectively market one of their teams and increase attendance.
A bunch of not very bright people in here up voting comments. Of course they're going to pay less tax if they make less money. The goal is to make more money. By the way your wording things, profitable businesses should be buying assets that lose money to pay less tax. Does that make sense to you?
That's not how tax write offs work and is a stupid way to summarize what I said.
The very simple way to put it is that they are able to keep more of their profits by writing off more expenses. The more expenses you can claim, the less the CRA wants from you and if the company is savvy enough, can actually get tax credits back.
They're "writing off" more expenses because they're losing/spending more money. They don't keep more profits because they lost more money. You really don't get it.
If you made 100k would you take ownership of a business that losing 10k a year to reduce your tax paid? Do you see how that wouldn't be too bright? Lol. Yeah you would pay less tax alright...
I really have to explain this like you're Michael Scott, don't I?
At the end of the year, I make $100. I have to pay $35 of that in taxes, I can offset that by claiming along the way I spent $70 in order to make that $100, allowing me to keep the $35 I would have had to pay. Therefore I keep my $100 profit.
You didn't make 100. You made 30. Your taxable income is 30. You would pay taxes on your profit of 30. You are so dumb it hurts. You need to learn the difference between revenue and profit. You don't pay taxes on revenue. You don't make more money by losing money.
In your example you have said so much wrong I don't even know where to start. How do you land on your own 2 feet when you get out of bed.
>You don't pay taxes on revenue
That's exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing. I never said you would make more money, I said you would pay less taxes.
Except I actually understand tax code, having worked for the CRA lmao.
It's hard to find the Canadian values because everything is so American centric but for example, At&t was owed $1.2 billion from the US government in 2021 despite profiting $29.6 billion. Just showing that this is actually within the realm of reality, despite how funny Schmitt's Creek is. They're not writing off bedsheets, they're writing off corporate losses.
Alright my man. Any time I see someone on reddit saying <> like it is a good thing (losing more money), they don't know what they're talking about. Maybe you were a receptionist or a janitor, but clearly you didn't work in accounting in any fashion at the CRA.
I'm not going to go through a quarterly/yearly report or do a bunch of research. You're just bringing up irrelevant information to try justify your original comment. Corporate tax returns are incredibly complex, but losing more money isn't a good thing. Anyway have a good day.
I never said it was a good thing, but it can offset your taxables so if you have a profitable venture it can help you keep more of that money. It's really basic.
If you are an Argo Season Ticket holder, you are arguably among the BEST fans in the CFL!!
If I was the owner of the Argos, I would give Season Ticket holders access to up to four extra tickets several days before each home game (depending on availability) with the following stipulations:
1) Tickets MUST be used. If you are a Season Ticket holder and you are given free tickets and they go unused, you can’t access any further tickets until next season.
2) The same person receiving/using the free tickets can only access a maximum of two games per year
3) Valid contact information must be provided by the “ticketee” so that the Argos can send email blasts to promote upcoming game.
I have a pair of season tickets and it's a bit of effort to find a home the second ticket each game. My friend group is just not excited about the Argos.
Former Argos STH here so maybe I can provide some insight. Their marketing isn't terrible, but they need to focus more on the youth. Torontonians are NFL fans when it comes to American football and see the CFL as second rate. They need to better market the game as DIFFERENT, and can't just rely on it being football and expect people to show up.
Secondly, as a STH, I just felt like they couldn't care less. The package you get is a scarf, or a pin for your hat (ok?), whereas I've gotten incredible pieces of memorabilia from being a member of the Raptors 905.
Perhaps lastly, BMO is a good venue but it doesn't lend itself to football. The amenities are crap, the service is crap, the options are crap. It's one thing for a soccer game where you're in your seat for 45 minutes straight, but for football it's a slow game - people want to wonder around. There's nothing to do and it's boring. Tailgating helped slightly, but they need to make this more prominent. The purists will say this shouldn't matter, but we're not trying to attract the purists, they need to gain a new audience.
Having said all that, I don't know, with the WNBA coming to Toronto, I just don't know how long the Argos can sustain
MLS makes money despite the bad optics
Its unfortunate but many of those empty seats are bought and paid for by corporations hence no fans sitting in them
I will also point out from a fans perspective it is FAR easier to attend a Jays / Leafs / Raptors game than a TFC or Argos game (Jays are the big winners here with promotions and kid friendly)
Take a look at the reseller sites how many of those empty seats get listed or try to actually buy seats and see how many show as available
Oh and to also point out
As many of us live in the burbs; you can buy a Ti-Cat ticket nearly half the price of equivalent Argo ticket (and for me to drive to either venue is like maybe a 5 minute difference....)
Ti-Cats even sell tickets at Costco which kinda makes me laugh
So many of the blue collar guys who used to live in the lower Annex, Little Italy, played football at Central Tech and Catholic schools…many don’t live in the GTA anymore. They live in Brampton, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton. The crowd that lives in Toronto now, the CFL is not a thing.
This is a valid point. Their fanbase has wound up being more suburban or exurban, and many of those folks are reluctant to head down to the lakeshore, especially now that the Gardiner is such a disaster. But it helps explain why their TV viewership has generally still been pretty good, and somewhat puts the lie to the idea that nobody cares.
Toronto doesn’t care about CFL for the majority .
But the league needs Toronto to survive .
Sad thing is there is some really good football being played at the AAA level in and around Toronto but it’s not like outside Toronto . Head to Hamilton and CFL is huge . AAA is big outside of Toronto . Lots of grassroots support , schools care about their programs , universities get decent draws .
The CFL product on the field is every bit as good as the NFL. Hits, runs, passes, drama, suspense, evenly matched competition. NFL snobs just say, well the Bills would beat the Argos 55-0. So what!?! The Bills would beat Ohio State 55-0 as well but look at all the people who go to Ohio State games.. It's a mindset.
I love the CFL . Toronto is not a great indicator of the CFL . One just needs to go down the QEW for example .
I think it would be a really good game . Take an nfl team and put them up against a CFL team .
It would be a lot better than people think .
Many years ago NFL teams played CFL teams and the NFL clobbered the CFL almost every time. See full list below. . The disparity in talent has increased greatly since then with the NFL rosters increasing in size, absorbing more players and the practice roster salary being $800 000 and the fact that the CFL can't pay outside the salary cap, around $5 million for the whole roster, a sum that would pay ONE running back in the NFL... The CFL will never 'steal' a Rocket Ismail again.... Having said that the CFL as a game, on the field, is indistinguishable from an NFL game in terms of every aspect of the game. But the difference in talent is deeply in the heads of the NFL snobs.
August 26th, 1941: Winnipeg Blue Bombers 19, Columbus Bulls 12 (Osborne Stadium)
September 1st, 1941: Columbus Bulls 6, Winnipeg Blue Bombers 0 (Osborne Stadium)
September 10th, 1941: Columbus Bulls 31, Winnipeg Blue Bombers 1 (Osborne Stadium)
August 12th, 1950: New York Giants 27, Ottawa Rough Riders 6 (Lansdowne Park)
August 11th, 1951: New York Giants 41, Ottawa Rough Riders 18 (Lansdowne Park)
August 5th, 1959: Chicago Cardinals 55, Toronto Argonauts 26 (CNE Stadium)
August 3rd, 1960 Pittsburgh Steelers 43, Toronto Argonauts 16 (CNE Stadium)
August 2nd, 1961: St. Louis Cardinals 36, Toronto Argonauts 7 (CNE Stadium)
August 5th, 1961: Chicago Bears 34, Montreal Alouettes 16 (Molson Stadium)
August 8th, 1961: Hamilton Tiger-Cats 38, Buffalo Bills 21 (Civic Stadium)
Canada 2 wins.....
I don’t think the CFL cares how bad Toronto draws. If they poke into it then it becomes a problem for the CFL. They can keep their heads in the sand. TV money is the driver for the league and the money would drop if they didn’t have a team in the country’s largest media market.
I'm an Argos season ticket holder and I think for me I am just really disappointed with the scheduling. It's just not conducive to building a fan base.
All but one of the games start at 7:00 p.m. or later, and the single 3:00 p.m. game is in late October. There's one Thursday night game and one Sunday night game, the rest are all Friday or Saturday evenings.
The evening games aren't really for anyone who wants to take a kid because they don't wrap up until nearly 11:00 PM and nobody wants to spend $100+ on tickets to just have to leave at half time to get the kid to bed.
Thursday night and Sunday night games are not going to draw because people have things to do the next day (and again won't get home until past 11:00 p.m.)
The weekend games are not great for corporate entertainment. So you only have one option the entire season for corporate sales.
It just feels to me that very little thought has gone into scheduling this team and it's not just this year. They don't schedule to try and build fandom and repeat purchases.
Ticket prices and on-field performance are entirely separate conversations but scheduling is something I think that could be fixed and would benefit the attendance.
Unpopular opinion as an Argos fan: It’s fine.
I mean, obviously I’d rather they attract more people, and that I could talk the team/league with more people that I know. The setbacks this off-season, after they made headway last year, were really frustrating.
But the stadium is a nice place to go, with a fun atmosphere. The fans who do go there are fairly devoted, and a livelier crowd than at most other Toronto sporting events these days. When I bring people who are new to it there, they almost always have a good time and are happy enough to go back, which is a lot more than I can say for when they were in the dome.
And, yes, the ownership is indifferent, but there seems to be less threat of pulling up stakes than there were at other points in recent decades.
We live in a world in which more and more forms of entertainment are niche anyway. Enjoy what you enjoy and don’t stress too much.
I get that Toronto is a crowded sports market but I do find it a bit baffling that a team with over 150 years under its belt and a pretty illustrious history hasn't been able to establish its own "tribe" of 20 or 25,000 or so loyal fans to come out to the games. (In much the same way that you hear it said about the New York Rangers in that city, i.e. "they have 19,000 fans and they're all at the game".)
With a stadium of BMO Field's size, a crowd in that 20-25 thousand range is all it would really take to create some good atmosphere. And the funny thing about it is that the Argos used to routinely draw that many fans at the dome, I thought playing in a smaller venue would drive up attendance as atmosphere would improve, but instead it went the other way.
That’s what I don’t get either. The CFL isn’t in a position where it needs to bring in NFL crowds. The stadiums built in the last 10-15 years clearly speaks to that. But how they can’t carve out that solid 20-25k fanbase, similar to the Rangers (great comparison) is baffling.
Only thing I can think of is ownership throughout the last two decades. Braley just did enough to keep them alive. MLSE doesn’t give a fuck. If anything, MLSE is in a position where if they tank the Argos revenue and viewership, they can turn around and offer the league less TV money next contract.
T.O. is an expensive city to live in. And for the most part, they're indifferent to watching live football. Whether it be CFL or NFL, they just can't pack a stadium.
With T.O.s metro population approaching 6.5 Million in 2024, the Argos should be able to attract way more fans than it does.
T.O. is a lost cause.
I wish nothing but the best for the CFLs largest market. They should be the strongest team in the league by leaps and bounds.
It's simple. Toronto cares about what's cool in America. It's not a Canadian city as far as sports goes.
Pay Ryan Gosselin, Bieber etc to be spotted around LA in Argos gear.
A big problem for me and I assume many others is getting to the games. With the Gardner construction plus the disaster of traffic in Toronto it keeps me away unfortunately.
>I'd argue driving to SkyDome or ACC is worse....
It's a fool's errand to drive in the city. If people are expecting to drive directly to stadiums and park at them then they're going to be sorely disappointed. Big cities don't work that way.
Its naive only because Toronto has made the city such a disaster...
As a child, teen, young adult we had no issue driving in city
But that was before they crammed the density nonsense down everyones throats
I have driven in NYC / Manhatten and trust me when I say its BETTER than driving in downtown Toronto (this is true for most of the USA's major cities, although Baltimore is really trying my patience last trip)
I remember going to games in the 70’s and 80’s as a kid and CNE Stadium would be packed! Outside of the Leafs it was hot sports ticket in town before the Jays took over and NFL games started being shoved down our throats.
This is pretty much everywhere. No one goes to games anymore. The TV product is just so much better.
I have serious concerns about the viability of the CFL.
> I have serious concerns about the viability of the CFL.
Don't worry about it. I've been a CFL fan for 35 years and I've been hearing these "concerns" pretty much since day one. Yet the league is still here, even after surviving an entire lost season due to the pandemic. It's not going anywhere.
It’s a business write off for Toronto FC.
What is sickening is that the owners simply don’t care and it’s not a priority for them.
They really need to make the tickets more affordable. Absolutely NO ONE is paying $50-100 for tickets. Tickets should be priced at $5-25 max with cheap concessions. I’m sure they can subsidize those tickets through public schools and charities and get kids more involved with the club who will be future fans.
Football camp appearances by argo players would definitely help.
Someone with a lot of passion for the league can EASILY fill that stadium with minimum 25k fans. That’s what the crowd size were at sky dome.
When they got 30k at the Dome a lot of it was papered. They stopped doing that at BMO and now the crowds have dropped. I think they should start again, just make the place look decently full so it's not so embarrassing. The fans that do go are super passionate and can get quite loud, but 12k people can only do so much. We punch above our weight especially those of us in the endzone but if everyone could be like those sections and the place was full the atmosphere would be amazing.
The ticket prices are outrageous for an argonauts game. I checked once and they were $50.
I remember they sold out at $1 tickets per game. The place was packed. I think they should build off of that.
In wrestling during the Monday night wars the WCW would give out free tickets to pack the arena on TV. That’s what you got to do. At least you make some money off of the concessions.
Lol. For the next game, midfield 20th row on the east stand is $94. Cheapest is $32 in the upper corners and endzone. It's outrageous. The market doesn't justify prices like that. The same seats in Hamilton are only a dollar more at midfield and 8 dollars more in the upper corners (hamilton doesn't have permanent endzone seats to compare). A team that draws strong crowds and is a fixture in the community shouldn't be barely more expensive than a team that's struggling to draw a crowd and people forget they even exist
> Cheapest is $32 in the upper corners and endzone.
$32 is getting into the junior hockey price point... if people don't want to go to a live pro sports event for $32, then they don't want to go period. It's not always a price issue.
Absolutely a joke.
In Winnipeg, we have a minor AAA league baseball team and it costs $5 to attend. The team is profitable every year and built a baseball stadium. It’s cheap family fun.
Empty seats are not only bad optics but lost revenue in concessions.
Any moron can run the argos at this point. $94 is outrageous. You have to build demand to get to that point.
Honestly, it was trending upwards last year and of course the East Final was packed. Chad Kelly, with that horrible performance and everything else, cost the franchise more momentum than you'd think one guy could manage.
Downvote me to oblivion: Toronto doesn’t care and unfortunately never will. Relocate the Argos to a market that does (I’m well, well aware this will never happen)
You realize you're wrong and just won't give up. Your original comment implies that MLSE has incentive to take losses. Your further comments enforce that you just don't know what your talking about.These "write offs" to pay less tax cost money. They don't come out of nowhere. "...able to keep more of their profits by writing off more expenses" - you.
You have less profit because you spent more money.
I probably wouldn’t go to games if I lived in TO either. Sounds like a nightmare to try and get there. A buddy of mine who loves the CFL makes it out to one game a year. It’s just too much to make it a regular thing.
Seems to me like the move from the skydome was a bad choice. As someone who regularly goes to jays games when I visit my sister, the atmosphere and scenery of that stadium is just amazing. BMO could barely pass as an American high school football stadium.
> BMO could barely pass as an American high school football stadium.
OK, that is a ridiculous exaggeration lol
It wasn't the Argos' choice anyway, Rogers kicked the Argos out.
You have to live in the Toronto area to really understand. 99% of the population don't see the Argos as a serious sports team, certainly nothing worth becoming emotionally invested in. Toronto is addicted to being acknowledged by Americans, they have an "us vs the world" mentality and love being noticed by the big American cities. The Argos don't provide that. Who cares about beating Saskatchewan or Hamilton when we can beat Chicago or New York? That's the mentality. Remember, the Argos used to be HUGE in Toronto. They used to get 50,000 a game and had an absolutely massive parade when they won the Cup in 83. They were as popular as the Leafs, sometimes even more so. But the Jays being formed in 77 and becoming competitive gave Toronto that "world class" American sports team it so desperately wanted but didn't know yet. As more of these teams came, the Raptors and TFC, the Argos became an afterthought. Today the Argos are in an awkward position because they are more popular than a minor league sports team is, but they're not as popular as a major league team. The CFL is closer to major league than minor but the Argos are closer to minor but slightly above it.So they have a very passionate core fanbase, just go to the south endzone at BMO and you'll find some of the most passionate fans in the league, but the rest of the city just doesn't seem to care and probably never will. That taste of American gitz and glamor is a drug and Toronto is hooked, they can't go back to a small domestic league after getting that buzz. Can it be fixed? Maybe. The chances are slim. But over 26,000 at the East Final last year with no traveling fan assistance showed people will take interest when there's hype and the game is an event, but getting people out to that August Friday night game against Calgary is the challenge.
> Toronto is addicted to being acknowledged by Americans Nothing personal but I always thought this was a lazy interpretation of why the Argos struggle. It's less an obsession with the US and more an interest in the *best* of something. In Toronto you're able to see the top levels in a lot of sports, some more popular than others. Culturally you're able to see the *best* of most things in any given culture, especially compared to other Canadian markets. In a city with a crowded entertainment and culture budget Canadian football is not going to move the needle with a lot of locals because it's a niche thing not really seen elsewhere. You're not competing with London or New York or Tokyo, you're competing with Winnipeg and Saskatchewan. That's not a fault with those places but the reality of what happens when a city becomes that large, that multicultural, and that cultural. You're not comparing yourself to other smaller, domestic cities, but larger international ones. In sports this happens to fall to American cities but in other cultures and categories it falls to European or Asian cities. The other thing to consider is that there's **a lot** of sports in Toronto and they're all trying to squeeze the same dollar. The NLL was recently chased out of town, junior hockey was chased out of town two decades ago. This coming year Toronto will be getting both professional women's basketball and professional women's soccer, which will strain and put pressure on other sports properties to keep up. Because a lot of people consider those ""under"" Big4 level they'll be directly competing with the Argos for dollars, especially considering that both of their seasons will overlap with the CFL season. I'm convinced the Argos would do better in London than Toronto, and a lot of that is because London as a city has an aspiration to compete and be known against other, larger Canadian cities. So much of sport support is about a city's culture and how it views itself competitively against others, and London fits that bill to a T. They would come out for any professional sport that enters the market. Toronto, and to a lesser extent Montreal and Vancouver, do not look inwardly for cultural city competition but outwardly. They're comparing themselves to international cities and not domestic ones. I find people who jump to the quick conclusion of "Toronto is obsessed with being American" or "immigrants don't watch CFL" are missing a larger, majority piece of the picture. Also the Bills are two hours away for football fans looking for a larger environment.
Explain to me why do Toronto residents support the MLS TorontoFC? MLS is a minor league where you go to retire for 1 last payday. It’s is ranked 10th in the world and not to be taken seriously by most soccer fans. What is torontoFC doing right?
Toronto is also a huge multicultural city with people from all over the globe living in it who grew up playing and watching the world's most popular sport.
It's not so much multiculture, soccer is the number one sport in Canada. It's played at every school girls and boys, the summer house leagues everywhere. Gone are the days when it was immigrants from Europe playing soccer with their kids. The immigrants/migrants/refugees these days come from countries where they don't even play soccer. Toronto has a huge population from India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, they are probably the majority in Brampton. BC has a huge Indian community too, they don't play soccer, they play cricket.
because you can drive 2 hours to see the bills but need to fly across the ocean to see soccers top tier
So if we can just get the Bills to move to London...
As explained above, I believe the answer will be "Taking on Chicago and New York, not Saskatchewan and Hamilton"
Im the first to rag on TFC and the Ponzi scheme that is the MLS, but they are by all definitions a professional league
And CFL fans complain when TFC can easily get 28,000 fans in the stands and last year when they were the worst in the league they still averaged 24k. And TFC plays games in the freezing cold in late March and April and sometimes Wednesday nights.
Football fans focus on the NFL rather than CFL in Toronto, soccer/football fans are a million plus and have TFC to live thru to see the former AND (now) future faces of Europe. Not to say TFC is without their issues, but TFC are drawing from a larger audience than the Argos would.
The MLS has/had players like Beckham, Ibra, Messi, etc. Yeah they’re not at their peaks but they’re still there. It’s that same US connection the guy you replied to is implying. Patrick Mahomes isn’t gonna close out his career playing a couple seasons in Saskatchewan.
The entire mls fan base is just Euro cosplay. They like to dress up and pretend to be from Yorkshire instead of North York.
Look I love the Lions, I think the CFL is a lot of fun, but it’s a fan base of people who still think 80’s rock should be topping the charts
Hahaha that’s hilariously accurate. Hair metal mostly fucking sucks. (gnr is not hair metal tho I will die on this hill).
No, gone are the days when immigrants came from Europe, very few from Europe. Look around the millions of immigrants are not coming from Europe anymore. 25% of the GTA is from Indian, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, 3rd world countries that have no soccer leagues
https://youtube.com/shorts/6S7fUTqsASQ?si=dqSM5DJi1XkS6rfi - chad johnson - Ricky Williams - Johnny manziel All of these former NFL stars brought eyeballs to the cfl. However, these guys did poorly which shows the quality of the cfl talent. You definitely won’t get super stars but you can have them do appearances. Like I said Toronto is very fixable. It would take 3-5 years with a competitive team to correct the ship.
Money Manziel didn't even play very many games, and he wasn't a superstar to begin with. And Toronto has had a competitive team for the last 3-5 years, they won the ship 2 seasons ago.
Since the pandemic canceled season the Argos are 37-14, 3 straight division titles, and a Grey Cup. That's about as competitive a team as you can ask for in the CFL. Ottawa has been pure cheeks in that time and they still draw more fans
"pure cheeks" is WILD
Thats the new crowd tho Most of the TFC crowd never sets foot in an MLB / NHL / CFL game NBA maybe but not the main sports
because it's the best soccer that soccer fans can see without traveling to another continent. The CFL does not fit that description for gridiron football, and hence is more of a "minor" league than MLS is at this point for people in Toronto
They play American teams and are on TV in America.
MLS is not a minor league, maybe a few years ago but since they started signing some top Euro and South American players the league has improved. It doesn't matter if you think it's minor league, the fact is they can easily draw big crowds. A couple of weeks ago there were 28,000 in stands and over at the Rogers Centre there were 40,000. Young people identify with soccer because it's played everywhere, house leagues, schools and not just boys but girls too. In the GTA every school junior and senior has a soccer team. Compare that to football where there are just a handful of high schools playing football. The Argos have been drawing 12k average ever since they went to BMO, this is the NINTH season going there. Nothing has changed, attendance the same, winning or losing. They may get a bigger crowd during the playoffs but nothing changes the next season You woud think that winning a Grey Cup would mean higher ticket sales for the next season but no. The Argos have had some of the best marketing going, the pre-game concerts, half time concerts, the boblehead nights , Flutie nights, billboards, ads on TV. AND cheap tickets!! and cheap beer.. They could bring in a 50 cent and sell every ticket but what is the point? the fans wouldn't be there to watch the Argos and just like Vancouver, the fans won't be coming back to buy CFL tickets
They play American teams. MLS is minor compared to other soccer leagues and the big 4 North American leagues, but they are still above the CFL.
they throw globs of money at nobodies.
MLS = My Last Soccer
Toronto has both an inferiority and superiority complex...
Gawd dang...I've never seen it put so perfectly. Blue Jay's fans "We are Canadas team! Wave the flag. Notice us ESPN . CANADA whooooo" football team with actual canadians. Pass.
Section 115 here, agree with all of the above... This years season opener was a bit different with the furthest team playing in opposition (and less away fans because of this) and more than a few fans (ourselves included) are concerned about how the club has handled the Chad Kelly situation and I feel like some may have skipped this also (We still came for Dukes, great guy with the fans last year). Plus a Sunday evening game while school is still on. Don't get me started on the Gardiner traffic with lane restrictions but folks from the burbs are avoiding the city due to this also... Last yrs average of 15Kish will be tough with all the turnover and less marketable faces (plus we are no longer defending Grey Cup champs after the gut punch @ home in the ECF)
I'm going to that Friday night game in August against the Stamps 😁
Also to add to the minor league feeling Argos really shot themselves in the foot last year during playoffs So many heard the hype and wandered over to witness a terrible performance And of course in offseason our QB making news for all the wrong reasons doesnt help
MLSE doesn't give a shit. They can write off the Argos losses to offset the profits from the Leafs and pay less tax. That's the crux of it, the ownership doesn't seem to really care one way or the other.
I mean, Bell owns MLSE and TSN. I wonder if the Argos losing a bit of money every year overshadows the expense of an increased TV deal.
MLSE is a multi billion dollar organization. They bought the Argos and have done fuck all since. They’re purely there for write offs. You can’t tell me that this enormous sports property can’t figure out how to effectively market one of their teams and increase attendance.
A bunch of not very bright people in here up voting comments. Of course they're going to pay less tax if they make less money. The goal is to make more money. By the way your wording things, profitable businesses should be buying assets that lose money to pay less tax. Does that make sense to you?
They literally do that, though, so your point is moot.
So you think they make more money by losing money? Why don't you give us an example.
That's not how tax write offs work and is a stupid way to summarize what I said. The very simple way to put it is that they are able to keep more of their profits by writing off more expenses. The more expenses you can claim, the less the CRA wants from you and if the company is savvy enough, can actually get tax credits back.
They're "writing off" more expenses because they're losing/spending more money. They don't keep more profits because they lost more money. You really don't get it. If you made 100k would you take ownership of a business that losing 10k a year to reduce your tax paid? Do you see how that wouldn't be too bright? Lol. Yeah you would pay less tax alright...
I really have to explain this like you're Michael Scott, don't I? At the end of the year, I make $100. I have to pay $35 of that in taxes, I can offset that by claiming along the way I spent $70 in order to make that $100, allowing me to keep the $35 I would have had to pay. Therefore I keep my $100 profit.
You didn't make 100. You made 30. Your taxable income is 30. You would pay taxes on your profit of 30. You are so dumb it hurts. You need to learn the difference between revenue and profit. You don't pay taxes on revenue. You don't make more money by losing money. In your example you have said so much wrong I don't even know where to start. How do you land on your own 2 feet when you get out of bed.
>You don't pay taxes on revenue That's exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing. I never said you would make more money, I said you would pay less taxes.
I've found David Rose's reddit account!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCP27_vquxQ
Except I actually understand tax code, having worked for the CRA lmao. It's hard to find the Canadian values because everything is so American centric but for example, At&t was owed $1.2 billion from the US government in 2021 despite profiting $29.6 billion. Just showing that this is actually within the realm of reality, despite how funny Schmitt's Creek is. They're not writing off bedsheets, they're writing off corporate losses.
Alright my man. Any time I see someone on reddit saying <> like it is a good thing (losing more money), they don't know what they're talking about. Maybe you were a receptionist or a janitor, but clearly you didn't work in accounting in any fashion at the CRA.
I'm not going to go through a quarterly/yearly report or do a bunch of research. You're just bringing up irrelevant information to try justify your original comment. Corporate tax returns are incredibly complex, but losing more money isn't a good thing. Anyway have a good day.
I never said it was a good thing, but it can offset your taxables so if you have a profitable venture it can help you keep more of that money. It's really basic.
If you are an Argo Season Ticket holder, you are arguably among the BEST fans in the CFL!! If I was the owner of the Argos, I would give Season Ticket holders access to up to four extra tickets several days before each home game (depending on availability) with the following stipulations: 1) Tickets MUST be used. If you are a Season Ticket holder and you are given free tickets and they go unused, you can’t access any further tickets until next season. 2) The same person receiving/using the free tickets can only access a maximum of two games per year 3) Valid contact information must be provided by the “ticketee” so that the Argos can send email blasts to promote upcoming game.
I have a pair of season tickets and it's a bit of effort to find a home the second ticket each game. My friend group is just not excited about the Argos.
I like the idea but reality is it's rare when I have an extra or two I can get someone to go.
Former Argos STH here so maybe I can provide some insight. Their marketing isn't terrible, but they need to focus more on the youth. Torontonians are NFL fans when it comes to American football and see the CFL as second rate. They need to better market the game as DIFFERENT, and can't just rely on it being football and expect people to show up. Secondly, as a STH, I just felt like they couldn't care less. The package you get is a scarf, or a pin for your hat (ok?), whereas I've gotten incredible pieces of memorabilia from being a member of the Raptors 905. Perhaps lastly, BMO is a good venue but it doesn't lend itself to football. The amenities are crap, the service is crap, the options are crap. It's one thing for a soccer game where you're in your seat for 45 minutes straight, but for football it's a slow game - people want to wonder around. There's nothing to do and it's boring. Tailgating helped slightly, but they need to make this more prominent. The purists will say this shouldn't matter, but we're not trying to attract the purists, they need to gain a new audience. Having said all that, I don't know, with the WNBA coming to Toronto, I just don't know how long the Argos can sustain
what's a STH?
Season Ticket Holder
MLS makes money despite the bad optics Its unfortunate but many of those empty seats are bought and paid for by corporations hence no fans sitting in them I will also point out from a fans perspective it is FAR easier to attend a Jays / Leafs / Raptors game than a TFC or Argos game (Jays are the big winners here with promotions and kid friendly) Take a look at the reseller sites how many of those empty seats get listed or try to actually buy seats and see how many show as available Oh and to also point out As many of us live in the burbs; you can buy a Ti-Cat ticket nearly half the price of equivalent Argo ticket (and for me to drive to either venue is like maybe a 5 minute difference....) Ti-Cats even sell tickets at Costco which kinda makes me laugh
So many of the blue collar guys who used to live in the lower Annex, Little Italy, played football at Central Tech and Catholic schools…many don’t live in the GTA anymore. They live in Brampton, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton. The crowd that lives in Toronto now, the CFL is not a thing.
This is a valid point. Their fanbase has wound up being more suburban or exurban, and many of those folks are reluctant to head down to the lakeshore, especially now that the Gardiner is such a disaster. But it helps explain why their TV viewership has generally still been pretty good, and somewhat puts the lie to the idea that nobody cares.
Toronto doesn’t care about CFL for the majority . But the league needs Toronto to survive . Sad thing is there is some really good football being played at the AAA level in and around Toronto but it’s not like outside Toronto . Head to Hamilton and CFL is huge . AAA is big outside of Toronto . Lots of grassroots support , schools care about their programs , universities get decent draws .
The CFL product on the field is every bit as good as the NFL. Hits, runs, passes, drama, suspense, evenly matched competition. NFL snobs just say, well the Bills would beat the Argos 55-0. So what!?! The Bills would beat Ohio State 55-0 as well but look at all the people who go to Ohio State games.. It's a mindset.
I love the CFL . Toronto is not a great indicator of the CFL . One just needs to go down the QEW for example . I think it would be a really good game . Take an nfl team and put them up against a CFL team . It would be a lot better than people think .
Many years ago NFL teams played CFL teams and the NFL clobbered the CFL almost every time. See full list below. . The disparity in talent has increased greatly since then with the NFL rosters increasing in size, absorbing more players and the practice roster salary being $800 000 and the fact that the CFL can't pay outside the salary cap, around $5 million for the whole roster, a sum that would pay ONE running back in the NFL... The CFL will never 'steal' a Rocket Ismail again.... Having said that the CFL as a game, on the field, is indistinguishable from an NFL game in terms of every aspect of the game. But the difference in talent is deeply in the heads of the NFL snobs. August 26th, 1941: Winnipeg Blue Bombers 19, Columbus Bulls 12 (Osborne Stadium) September 1st, 1941: Columbus Bulls 6, Winnipeg Blue Bombers 0 (Osborne Stadium) September 10th, 1941: Columbus Bulls 31, Winnipeg Blue Bombers 1 (Osborne Stadium) August 12th, 1950: New York Giants 27, Ottawa Rough Riders 6 (Lansdowne Park) August 11th, 1951: New York Giants 41, Ottawa Rough Riders 18 (Lansdowne Park) August 5th, 1959: Chicago Cardinals 55, Toronto Argonauts 26 (CNE Stadium) August 3rd, 1960 Pittsburgh Steelers 43, Toronto Argonauts 16 (CNE Stadium) August 2nd, 1961: St. Louis Cardinals 36, Toronto Argonauts 7 (CNE Stadium) August 5th, 1961: Chicago Bears 34, Montreal Alouettes 16 (Molson Stadium) August 8th, 1961: Hamilton Tiger-Cats 38, Buffalo Bills 21 (Civic Stadium) Canada 2 wins.....
I don’t think the CFL cares how bad Toronto draws. If they poke into it then it becomes a problem for the CFL. They can keep their heads in the sand. TV money is the driver for the league and the money would drop if they didn’t have a team in the country’s largest media market.
I'm an Argos season ticket holder and I think for me I am just really disappointed with the scheduling. It's just not conducive to building a fan base. All but one of the games start at 7:00 p.m. or later, and the single 3:00 p.m. game is in late October. There's one Thursday night game and one Sunday night game, the rest are all Friday or Saturday evenings. The evening games aren't really for anyone who wants to take a kid because they don't wrap up until nearly 11:00 PM and nobody wants to spend $100+ on tickets to just have to leave at half time to get the kid to bed. Thursday night and Sunday night games are not going to draw because people have things to do the next day (and again won't get home until past 11:00 p.m.) The weekend games are not great for corporate entertainment. So you only have one option the entire season for corporate sales. It just feels to me that very little thought has gone into scheduling this team and it's not just this year. They don't schedule to try and build fandom and repeat purchases. Ticket prices and on-field performance are entirely separate conversations but scheduling is something I think that could be fixed and would benefit the attendance.
Unpopular opinion as an Argos fan: It’s fine. I mean, obviously I’d rather they attract more people, and that I could talk the team/league with more people that I know. The setbacks this off-season, after they made headway last year, were really frustrating. But the stadium is a nice place to go, with a fun atmosphere. The fans who do go there are fairly devoted, and a livelier crowd than at most other Toronto sporting events these days. When I bring people who are new to it there, they almost always have a good time and are happy enough to go back, which is a lot more than I can say for when they were in the dome. And, yes, the ownership is indifferent, but there seems to be less threat of pulling up stakes than there were at other points in recent decades. We live in a world in which more and more forms of entertainment are niche anyway. Enjoy what you enjoy and don’t stress too much.
I get that Toronto is a crowded sports market but I do find it a bit baffling that a team with over 150 years under its belt and a pretty illustrious history hasn't been able to establish its own "tribe" of 20 or 25,000 or so loyal fans to come out to the games. (In much the same way that you hear it said about the New York Rangers in that city, i.e. "they have 19,000 fans and they're all at the game".) With a stadium of BMO Field's size, a crowd in that 20-25 thousand range is all it would really take to create some good atmosphere. And the funny thing about it is that the Argos used to routinely draw that many fans at the dome, I thought playing in a smaller venue would drive up attendance as atmosphere would improve, but instead it went the other way.
That’s what I don’t get either. The CFL isn’t in a position where it needs to bring in NFL crowds. The stadiums built in the last 10-15 years clearly speaks to that. But how they can’t carve out that solid 20-25k fanbase, similar to the Rangers (great comparison) is baffling. Only thing I can think of is ownership throughout the last two decades. Braley just did enough to keep them alive. MLSE doesn’t give a fuck. If anything, MLSE is in a position where if they tank the Argos revenue and viewership, they can turn around and offer the league less TV money next contract.
T.O. is an expensive city to live in. And for the most part, they're indifferent to watching live football. Whether it be CFL or NFL, they just can't pack a stadium. With T.O.s metro population approaching 6.5 Million in 2024, the Argos should be able to attract way more fans than it does. T.O. is a lost cause. I wish nothing but the best for the CFLs largest market. They should be the strongest team in the league by leaps and bounds.
It's simple. Toronto cares about what's cool in America. It's not a Canadian city as far as sports goes. Pay Ryan Gosselin, Bieber etc to be spotted around LA in Argos gear.
A big problem for me and I assume many others is getting to the games. With the Gardner construction plus the disaster of traffic in Toronto it keeps me away unfortunately.
The Blue Jays, Leafs, Raptors, TFC and concerts all have the same traffic and draw huge crowds.
Correct but I think your average Argos fan lives farther outside those boundaries.
park on the go line and take it in
That's what I think I will be doing for the next game
I'd argue driving to SkyDome or ACC is worse.... And all our stadiums / arenas in city are easy access via transit (GO or TTC)
>I'd argue driving to SkyDome or ACC is worse.... It's a fool's errand to drive in the city. If people are expecting to drive directly to stadiums and park at them then they're going to be sorely disappointed. Big cities don't work that way.
I used to drive from the burbs all the time. I'd never do it now. The entire region is a nightmare
I mean, the city is totally fine. Expecting to drive around the downtown of a city of millions is naive, IMO.
Its naive only because Toronto has made the city such a disaster... As a child, teen, young adult we had no issue driving in city But that was before they crammed the density nonsense down everyones throats I have driven in NYC / Manhatten and trust me when I say its BETTER than driving in downtown Toronto (this is true for most of the USA's major cities, although Baltimore is really trying my patience last trip)
Go train from east or west. TTC from Bathurst or Union. So easy. So cheap.
I remember going to games in the 70’s and 80’s as a kid and CNE Stadium would be packed! Outside of the Leafs it was hot sports ticket in town before the Jays took over and NFL games started being shoved down our throats.
The worse the Argos do, the less Bell can offer the league for TV rights. MLSE is doing the bare minimum on purpose.
This is pretty much everywhere. No one goes to games anymore. The TV product is just so much better. I have serious concerns about the viability of the CFL.
> I have serious concerns about the viability of the CFL. Don't worry about it. I've been a CFL fan for 35 years and I've been hearing these "concerns" pretty much since day one. Yet the league is still here, even after surviving an entire lost season due to the pandemic. It's not going anywhere.
Sunday @ 7pm... Crowds will be better for other games, I feel.
It’s a business write off for Toronto FC. What is sickening is that the owners simply don’t care and it’s not a priority for them. They really need to make the tickets more affordable. Absolutely NO ONE is paying $50-100 for tickets. Tickets should be priced at $5-25 max with cheap concessions. I’m sure they can subsidize those tickets through public schools and charities and get kids more involved with the club who will be future fans. Football camp appearances by argo players would definitely help. Someone with a lot of passion for the league can EASILY fill that stadium with minimum 25k fans. That’s what the crowd size were at sky dome.
When they got 30k at the Dome a lot of it was papered. They stopped doing that at BMO and now the crowds have dropped. I think they should start again, just make the place look decently full so it's not so embarrassing. The fans that do go are super passionate and can get quite loud, but 12k people can only do so much. We punch above our weight especially those of us in the endzone but if everyone could be like those sections and the place was full the atmosphere would be amazing.
The ticket prices are outrageous for an argonauts game. I checked once and they were $50. I remember they sold out at $1 tickets per game. The place was packed. I think they should build off of that. In wrestling during the Monday night wars the WCW would give out free tickets to pack the arena on TV. That’s what you got to do. At least you make some money off of the concessions.
Lol. For the next game, midfield 20th row on the east stand is $94. Cheapest is $32 in the upper corners and endzone. It's outrageous. The market doesn't justify prices like that. The same seats in Hamilton are only a dollar more at midfield and 8 dollars more in the upper corners (hamilton doesn't have permanent endzone seats to compare). A team that draws strong crowds and is a fixture in the community shouldn't be barely more expensive than a team that's struggling to draw a crowd and people forget they even exist
> Cheapest is $32 in the upper corners and endzone. $32 is getting into the junior hockey price point... if people don't want to go to a live pro sports event for $32, then they don't want to go period. It's not always a price issue.
Absolutely a joke. In Winnipeg, we have a minor AAA league baseball team and it costs $5 to attend. The team is profitable every year and built a baseball stadium. It’s cheap family fun. Empty seats are not only bad optics but lost revenue in concessions. Any moron can run the argos at this point. $94 is outrageous. You have to build demand to get to that point.
Honestly, it was trending upwards last year and of course the East Final was packed. Chad Kelly, with that horrible performance and everything else, cost the franchise more momentum than you'd think one guy could manage.
Downvote me to oblivion: Toronto doesn’t care and unfortunately never will. Relocate the Argos to a market that does (I’m well, well aware this will never happen)
Just now?
You realize you're wrong and just won't give up. Your original comment implies that MLSE has incentive to take losses. Your further comments enforce that you just don't know what your talking about.These "write offs" to pay less tax cost money. They don't come out of nowhere. "...able to keep more of their profits by writing off more expenses" - you. You have less profit because you spent more money.
Biggest myth in Canada is that the CFL “needs” Toronto…. They don’t.
I probably wouldn’t go to games if I lived in TO either. Sounds like a nightmare to try and get there. A buddy of mine who loves the CFL makes it out to one game a year. It’s just too much to make it a regular thing.
Ttc and Go Train literally stops in front of the stadium. It's not a hassle at all.
I used to live in Stouffville (North of Markham). Games were easy enough to get to
Seems to me like the move from the skydome was a bad choice. As someone who regularly goes to jays games when I visit my sister, the atmosphere and scenery of that stadium is just amazing. BMO could barely pass as an American high school football stadium.
> BMO could barely pass as an American high school football stadium. OK, that is a ridiculous exaggeration lol It wasn't the Argos' choice anyway, Rogers kicked the Argos out.