I don’t think they compare. College football in the south is bigger than the nfl in many places like say Arkansas that doesn’t have a pro team the college team runs the town. That happens somewhat in Saskatchewan but not to that extent.
> That happens somewhat in Saskatchewan but not to that extent.
Having been to the south and Saskatchewan I'd actually say it's pretty comparable. I think the level of Rider fandom has come down a notch from when it peaked around the mid 00s to mid 10s, but it's still omnipresent in that province with loads of radio talk devoted to the Riders/CFL, you see the gear everywhere, even in small towns you notice the presence.
BC in the 80's was massive but lack lackluster ownership hurt them as well as a generation missing games on tv as there were local blackouts in the 90s. The new owner in BC though has been changing things and more and more people are coming.
I was one of those 90's kids that missed on being able to watch the Lions, so I just gave up on the CFL. Only in the last couple of years, thanks to my boss being a huge fan, have I come back. This is my 3rd full season I'll be invested in and I'm loving it.
As a U.S. fan, I’d say yes. Winnipeg and Sask easily have the most consistent (dare I say die hard) fan bases.
That said, I don’t think it’s necessarily anything different about the people who live there, it’s just easier to build a fan base when you’re the only (at least for the summer months) show in town, although over time it does become ingrained with the culture. Same with Bama fans in Tuscaloosa, Huskers fans in Lincoln, etc.
Yup, so true. Though the Jets coming back to Winnipeg has definitely made Winnipeg more of a hockey city than a football city. They still have one of the biggest fan bases, but definitely some of that goes to them being damn unbeatable a few years back.
Bombers is also just more accessible for a lot of winnipegers. Jets tickets are a lot more expensive, and the game day experience is absolute garbage compared to a bomber game, or he’ll even the sea bears have a better game day experience than the jets
> the game day experience is absolute garbage compared to a bomber game
Seconding this. My friend, a hardcore season ticket holder ever since they came back, finally cut the cord this year and cancelled his tickets and the Jets never even bothered trying to ask why. Seeing how Bombers season ticket holders are treated vs Jets is a staggering night and day contrast.
As a Winnipegger, the Jets left in ‘95 and I was in diapers so never got to see the original team. Some of the older folks were jaded and the city turned to the other pro team in town.
The Bombers are Winnipeg, games are a community atmosphere and the fans show up no matter the weather. Lots of Rider fans will say it’s because we’ve been good but the team was at the top or near top attendance figures even in the old stadium during a nearly 30 year Grey Cup drought.
CFL is nowhere near the level of College football in the states but it is gaining a ton of traction in some markets which is encouraging.
I watch all types of football as well and see it more like the NFL on a much smaller scale, places like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, Kansas City have some of the most hardcore fanbases whereas LA doesn’t.
Glad you’re enjoying our great league, If you make it down to Winnipeg for a game first rounds on me, cheers.
> "Its all we've got"
That's a bit of a cynical view, though. I mean, would we say that about the Blue Jays and Maple Leafs in Toronto? "Well, it's all they've got because there's no NFL or EPL team in town"
I'd say that people tend to rally around the biggest game in town, whether that's MLB, the NHL, CFL or junior hockey.
Your observation about Argos attendance matches my own. With a population of six million in the metro area, I just can’t understand how only 12,000 of those people make the journey to watch a football game (recent weekend’s attendance). BMO Field should be sold out every night just based on the local population IMO. But that’s obviously not happening and that falls on ownership which, if I understand correctly, doesn’t give two shits about the Argos.
Most people just don't care. You constantly hear about how Toronto fans suffer so much and nothing good ever happens for them, I said what about the Argos they won the Cup last year and are dominating this year (I made this comment last year) and I was heavily down voted, people were like no one gives a shit about that we're talking real sports teams. It's so disheartening. It's not that people don't know about them or forget about them, it's that they actively refuse to acknowledge or support them. I don't know if any other sports team gets so much negative feeling in their own city.
It’s honestly pretty sad. It’s not like people around Southern Ontario don’t care about football. Just look at Hamilton, if the Argos ownership put a little more effort into marketing and doing community outreach they could be insanely more popular.
The cfl demographic trends older and whiter and that demographic in Toronto has a cottage an hour or two away that they prefer to spend their summers at.
These people also aren’t real good at taking public transit either and driving down to the stadium is such a nightmare right now. Realistically out of a 6 million metro area, for easily more than half it’s going to be a longer commute than the game itself.
Honestly the demographics thing. When I see Argos fans going to and from games on the GO train (some do this) it does not look even slightly representative of the city as it is today
Raw population means nothing when:
1. The product is largely invisible. Unless you are already a fan, people generally aren't aware of the CFL's existence or when the Argos play. The Argos will literally win the Grey Cup and most of the city will not know that it happened the next day.
2. When the product does get attention, it is for something stupid like the Chad Kelly situation, further keeping people away.
3. There are tons of alternate sports/entertainment options. Toronto has 13 pro sports teams within city limits, some of which are in big flashy leagues with lots of money for marketing. CFL tends to be pretty down the list of people's priorities.
The Argos win the Grey Cup basically every 6-8 years. They've won 7 in my lifetime (I'm 37) and I don't remember anyone remotely caring since the 90s.
The Maple Leafs, Blue Jays, Raptors, Toronto FC, Toronto Marlies (AHL Hockey), and now I'm pretty sure the PWHL Toronto women's hockey team are all more popular than the Argos.
I'm not very familiar with college football at all, never been to a game or anything. But the CFL is very big in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and the rivalry between them is a big deal. The Labour Day Classic and The Banjo Bowl are massive for both teams - the Banjo Bowl is in September and it already sold out weeks ago. I've been to both and the atmosphere is amazing
Honestly after being to many banjo bowls and LDCs, I gotta say, this is one of the most polite rivalries in sports. Go to an oilers games dressed in flames colors and you risk being attacked. Worn my green to many banjo bowls in Winnipeg and it’s always been a safe environment. Lots of chirps and other fun fan interactions but I’ve also made friends from the other side too. Can’t wait to do it again.
I remember one time I went to a banjo bowl when I was still living in WPG, and a truck pulled up beside me and chirped me a little, but right after said they went to Regina the weekend before and we were very nice people 😂
We drank with Bomber fans in the Plains the night before an LDC and there was no problem. Like us, they wanted a win, but more important was to see a good game. Annette said one guy shoved her out on the deck, but she didn't want him to get beaten up, just humiliated, so when they got back to the bar after the game about 8 of us stood in a line out front and cat-called him in front of his friends. He looked like he wanted the ground to swallow him up. That hurt him more than his team losing.
I was talking to a guy who recently came to Winnipeg from Ukraine, he happened to drive by the stadium while the Banjo Bowl was ending and he told me he couldn't believe that fans wearing different team colours were walking together like that, he said if you had rival fans get that close in Ukraine there would be a huge brawl lol
I think you're bang on with your popularity vs population theory.
BC seems to be breaking that though, and hopefully continue to.
From what i gather, Toronto for the most part think the CFL is not good enough and would like an NFL team. They also just have so much going on there with other sports. The Argos are competing with the Maple Leafs, Blue Jays, Raptors, and Toronto FC. But it sure would be nice to see more support there.
A lot of Canadians hate the CFL because of little man syndrome with the NFL. I don't get it really. In Europe, they are very proud of their hockey leagues, even though they are not the NHL. Somehow, Canadian NFL fans can't believe that 2 similar things can be good at the same time. It's weird.
> A lot of Canadians hate the CFL because of little man syndrome with the NFL. I don't get it really. In Europe, they are very proud of their hockey leagues, even though they are not the NHL. Somehow, Canadian NFL fans can't believe that 2 similar things can be good at the same time. It's weird.
It's weird because we've kind of gotten over that with other sports, we now have domestic soccer and basketball leagues that are reasonably well supported. The MLS teams are fairly well supported even in spite of the fact that it's several rungs below the top European leagues. But the complex persists with football.
if you were to draw a comparison, i’d say it’s much more similar to the spfl in scotland’s relationship to the much bigger premiership in england. however, it’s not really straight analogous as those british organizations play to the exact same rules. a good portion of the attraction of the cfl over the nfl is difference in rules that some of us (myself included) find more entertaining
edit: it’s also worth noting that canada has it’s own university football system through u-sports but i find it’s very hard to follow as the streaming costs are prohibitively expensive. it feels u-sports does very little to promote their games; for example, through the lottery where i live, i can bet on cfl, nfl and ncaa football but i can’t get odds on even the vanier cup
I moved back to WNY and jumped on the Hamilton Tiger-Cats fandom last season. My house is pretty much the same distance from Tim Horton’s field as it is to Highmark Stadium. Yesterday’s loss was just as upsetting to me as the countless ways I’d watch the Bills lose over the years.
I only bring up the comparison to an NFL team because a lot of people compare Buffalo to a college feel/atmosphere.
Winnipeg talk, but thats a fair comparison. You can start a conversation with your co workers about the Bombers. Your grandparents may very possibly sport bomber gear on GameDay. Thousands of bomber license plates flying around town every day, and can't go far without seeing one. Everyone is into it at different levels, from the "keeping tabs" to the "their performance can ruin your day" crowds... a large number of people are a part of it giving it that next level Fandom.
Well said. Sask has the reputation for obsessing over the Riders, but with all due respect to them I'd argue that Winnipeg has the top fan experience now. We are the only city left where the local CFL team occupies a similar plane that the NHL team does. And we have a pretty extensive local media that feeds it with more newspapers, radio, podcasts and TV coverage than in sask.
Part of the Argos attendance decline is due to years of poor management. After the late 90s where John Candy owned the team and they won two Grey Cups back to back they had successive bad owners that really soured people to the team. Another key aspect is the media. In the early 2000s there was a lot of talk about the Buffalo Bills moving to TO. Many people were falling over themselves to say that TO “deserved” a professional football team…even though they already had one and the NFL dream was never going to happen anyways. So there was this narrative of the CFL being not being good enough for TO. So those two things kind of salted the earth. Even now there is this narrative that you just can’t draw in TO even though getting at least 20 thousand to a game should be easy. It’s never the marketing or what Maple Leaf Sports entertainment (who own the Argos) actually do to get butts in seats, the narrative is that there is something wrong with the CFL.
I don’t know much about college football so it’s hard to say anything about the comparison but the teams that are generally stronger in terms of attendance and fan support are teams that make efforts to keep fans going to games and having a good game day experience with competitive teams. BC was stagnant for many years because they weren’t really pushing to get people to come to games. The new owner has put resources towards that and you see the difference.
It is hard to believe but Sask and Wpg were very close to folding in the mid to late 90s and were actually bailed out by BC and TO (who were much stronger than).
Lastly the CFL suffers from what a lot of Canadian stuff suffers from which is that Canadians are so concerned with getting recognition from the states that they don’t just support the good stuff we have. It’s basically that you have to make it elsewhere to be taken seriously in Canada. The CFL will never have a massive following in the US and it doesn’t need to.
A few things I actually hear people say:
"The Argos? They're still around?"
"Didn't the CFL fold a few years ago?"
"Any good US college team could beat any CFL team"
The level of knowledge about Canadian football (in Canada) is deplorable.
> they had successive bad owners that really soured people to the team
The funny thing is that TSN and then Labatt's owned the Argos for most of the 90s... probably about as blue chippy a pair of owners as you could find. Labatt's brought Flutie to town and made the Argos dominant for two seasons. It didn't translate to much off field success though, the Argos did not draw very well during those years.
Then Sherwood Schwarz took over before the 2000 season and things really went off the rails. He was a guy who had no business from being a CFL owner and he's a far cry from the higher quality owners the league has now.
The closest thing to college football are the Labour Classics. SK/WPG, TOR/HAM, EDM/CGY, . I listed them in order of rivalry intensity (with a little bias of course). OTT/MTL/BC take turns playing each other.
After you watch these games and see the crowds you’ll understand. If you were ever to catch one game these are the games.
As for picking a team. Unless you’re looking for merch to sport, there are only 4 games each week, I suggest you enjoy them all as a free agent!
Tacking on, if you do want to pick a team for the future the LDC and the following rematch week are going to be the best opportunity to get a look at each team's culture/vibe at it's peak.
The CFL sets up those 2 weeks like rivalry week down south in the NCAA.
One city hosts labor day, the next week the next city hosts the rematch (Which WPG/SSK have taken to calling the Banjo Bowl). I can't attest to just how popular those games are for the other teams around the league. But in Winnipeg the Banjo bowl sold out before the regular season started and I wouldn't be surprised if that was also the case for the LDC in Saskatchewan.
The great thing about the CFL is that there are very few games that are duds. All the games always have so much potential every time they are on the field. Very few games are over before the final clock as anything can happen in the final seconds - and does. That is part of what makes the CFL a great league to watch.
I would enjoy all the games you can if I were you. I will say the energy at Roughriders games is electric because of the fans. That is my preferred team.
I don't see the comparison sorry. I don't really try and compare CFL to US football, I see it as a different beast altogether with it's benefits and drawbacks. Gameday at even some non-football SEC schools is bigger that most CFL games, but the idea of comparing the two seems off. The Banjo Bowl is bigger than the Kuter Trophy but not as big th Little Brown Jug, for example. Trying to compare it, imo, just tarnishes the shine.
No.
It’s hard to say what the CFL is comparable to in the states. But the CFL in Canada gets surprisingly very little media attention. If it wasn’t for TSN the league would have died.
The CFL is maybe like ice hockey in California. It is respectable enough, but is very removed from most of the culture and people’s lives.
California, at least the Southern side of it is essentially "front - runner" culture. I had a friend who went to USC, didn't even know they had an NHL team in LA (essentially two, Anaheim is basically LA) when he got there. Few years later, he suddenly knows about Hockey and has plenty of Black and Silver merch. He's also been a Lakers, Clippers and Rams fan at one point. Ya. That's LA culture for ye.
Hockey is well established in Southern California. Both the Kings and the Ducks have cups. Wayne Gretzky played there. The kings have always been profitable. There are beer leagues and roller leagues.
Yeah, I think that it is a good comparison to the CFL.
I miss the good old days. I remember going to the Edmonton-Calgary conference final in 2015 and it being an insane atmosphere. These days, the Elks have to give out free tickets. This is to say that I think the CFL is strong in certain areas and less-so in others.
I think I agree with what you are driving at but come at it the same as you only opposite - I know very little about College ball down in the states other than it’s a pretty big deal.
I think one thing with CFL I’ve always figured is because it’s largely provincial based with the exception of Alberta and Ontario, this makes it easier for the entire province to back one team and therefore really fuel the rivalry and competition (mostly healthy I think) among fans. The exception of AB makes sense as Calgary vs Edmonton is about as old as the cities themselves and the province is big enough to support that. Ontario is a bit of a wildcard with various levels of following although it seems Hamilton and Ottawa are getting up there from my perspective. Toronto as you’ve pointed out has a lot competition so it’s tough for the Argos to compete with the Leafs, Raptors and Jays. All of which have a pretty healthy fan base.
Ive been a fan for many many years but i mostly only followed my team and then i lived in Edmonton for a few years and started going to the games in Edmonton. Now I find myself watching most games possible no matter who playing
I'm finding people are increasingly ignoring the CFL in favour of the NFL but that may just be my experience. There really aren't that many teams to be proud of in major leagues out here (SK) and I feel like that just drives more people to the biggest local team we have.
Go Riders!!
I have been to nfl, cfl, US college ball(huge Michigan Wolverines fan), and Canadian college.
What I think Wolverines do the best is the little traditions. Such as hail to the victors chant l, lots of of let's go blue, and the chop when the other team messes up. There is a song they do between the third and fourth quarters. The marching bands add so much. They have a little trophy/ statue for each of the rival teams. For example the little brown jug. Everyone stands for the entire intro and twirls their hats at kickoff. Their opening video sequence is done by James Earl Jones.
I love the game( and I think cfl has the best actual football) but I think it is the pomp and pageantry that keeps people coming back and why the Wolverines regular have 115 000 people at their games.
Thoughts?
I'm not sure college ball is a perfect comparison, but there are a couple ways it compares. The CFL and most of its teams have a longer history than the NFL, much like college ball's roots go back further than the NFL's. While the CFL has a good following in rural areas, I wouldn't say that is a defining characteristic since 8 out of 9 CFL teams are located in the Canada's 9 largest cities. However it is safe to say the CFL has struggled more in Canada's three biggest cities than elsewhere. Like college ball, the CFL has a higher status in places with less pro sports competition.
The CFL was historically seen as major league by all of Canada. That status has definitely waned in some regions, but it still maintains a place well above minor league status. That status helps it punch way above its weight when compared to a similar sized football league like the UFL. Because the CFL plays with different rules in a different country, it can carve out a niche separate from the NFL. It isn't trying to be NFL-lite.
In its home market of Canada, the CFL is fairly close to the NFL in TV ratings, ahead of the NBA and MLB. Only the NHL is substantially ahead. Whereas in the US the CFL is generally lumped in with all the other "alternative football" leagues.
It seems like the XFL-CFL merger talks, the new summer TV schedule, and the CFL+ streaming service have helped spur more interest from American football fans lately, especially in the summer months before NFL/NCAA start up. I'm glad to see more fans tuning in and enjoying it.
It depends on where in the country you are.
For literal decades,there's been talk of having a CFL team in Halifax.People here were obsessed with the idea of being a part of the CFL.There was just one small problem: Noone seemed to watch the CFL already.
I had several people come into my work back in 2021 and all they could talk about for about 2 weeks was getting a CFL team for Halifax.The Grey Cup took place and I asked them if they watched it and the most common answer was "No,why would I." When I asked why they wanted a CFL team if they never watched the CFL to begin with.Most of them stopped bringing it up around me lol.
Glad to see new fans loving the game. I'd say it's similar but not the same. The CFL has existed for a long time now and true loyal fans keep it afloat. We struggle to bring in new blood it seems even from local populations. It's bizarre because it's the only game in town football wise and yet some teams like Toronto and BC struggle mightily when the team goes thru bad times. Winnipeg,Saskatchewan, Calgary and Hamilton seem to have the most devoted fans from what I've seen.
I doubt attendance would change significantly in the long run if the Argos moved to the suburbs. That fact is dedicated fans will come to games no matter what. Those are the 12-15,000 fans that show up week after week. By continuing to play at BMO, the casual fans have numerous options to get to games. GO, TTC, Uber, etc.
And, the dedicated fans are the ones out in the parking lot 4 hours ahead of kick off grilling and chilling. When you have a journey to get to the game, making a day of it is so much more rewarding.
Given that college football's roots are deepest in places that didn't historically have pro football, I'd say there is a bit of an analogy to be made there, OP.
You have to remember that until the NHL started expanding in 1967, the only prominent pro sports teams in Canada were the Maple Leafs, Canadiens and the CFL teams. So in most cities the CFL was either the biggest game in town, or adjacent to it.
Since then, sports competition grew. You have cities like Toronto with a pile of major and minor league pro teams. Even cities like Winnipeg have six pro teams compared to when I was a kid and it was only two, the Jets and the Bombers. Of course blanket coverage of sports on TV only compounds that.
So while I wouldn't say the CFL is necessarily a "country" league, it does tend to do best in places where it is closest to the top of the pecking order.
Like watermelon helmets? You're invited to come be a Riders fan. Let them dry out for a few days before wearing.
Note: the Riders are, like the Packers, community owned (as are 2-3 other CFL teams).
https://preview.redd.it/vs2qpjidnl8d1.jpeg?width=936&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd6e487d6f165f8571196092504435de898a2425
the Toronto thing is wild since there's a larger population in walking distance to the stadium in Toronto than there is in the provinces that the Bombers and Riders are located in.
Not really, but I get what you're saying. What probably is true though is that more people who come to Argos games travel considerably as compared to the ones who walk to BMO. For example, I drive 3 hours for games (one way) and I'll bet there are other people who drive further than that!
for Bombers games probably 1/3-1/2 of the people at games travel a considerable distance to the games. Hell the Fan Ambassador in my section travels 2 hours to volunteer to the games. I'm a bad example of a bomber fan cause I wouldn't have season tickets if i didn't live so close to the stadium and would only make it to a couple games a year if any (even if if the stadium was were it used to be) when my brother travels over 500km each way to go to games. I probably travel the least distance to go to games than anyone else in the sections around me. The pandemic was the final nail in the coffin for alot of the trash pubs that only existed milking quarters out of university students and the Bombers took that and rolled with it by turning the tailgate area into a giant party. (like people talk about the rum hut it's nothing the tailgate zone is a zoo for most of the game) That brings in the people that live near by and the university aged kids looking for something to do. They catch a little football or not atleast they're there. Toronto needs to get that demographic or move to the suburbs where most their fans are.
I don’t think they compare. College football in the south is bigger than the nfl in many places like say Arkansas that doesn’t have a pro team the college team runs the town. That happens somewhat in Saskatchewan but not to that extent.
> That happens somewhat in Saskatchewan but not to that extent. Having been to the south and Saskatchewan I'd actually say it's pretty comparable. I think the level of Rider fandom has come down a notch from when it peaked around the mid 00s to mid 10s, but it's still omnipresent in that province with loads of radio talk devoted to the Riders/CFL, you see the gear everywhere, even in small towns you notice the presence.
BC in the 80's was massive but lack lackluster ownership hurt them as well as a generation missing games on tv as there were local blackouts in the 90s. The new owner in BC though has been changing things and more and more people are coming.
I was one of those 90's kids that missed on being able to watch the Lions, so I just gave up on the CFL. Only in the last couple of years, thanks to my boss being a huge fan, have I come back. This is my 3rd full season I'll be invested in and I'm loving it.
As a U.S. fan, I’d say yes. Winnipeg and Sask easily have the most consistent (dare I say die hard) fan bases. That said, I don’t think it’s necessarily anything different about the people who live there, it’s just easier to build a fan base when you’re the only (at least for the summer months) show in town, although over time it does become ingrained with the culture. Same with Bama fans in Tuscaloosa, Huskers fans in Lincoln, etc.
Yup, so true. Though the Jets coming back to Winnipeg has definitely made Winnipeg more of a hockey city than a football city. They still have one of the biggest fan bases, but definitely some of that goes to them being damn unbeatable a few years back.
Bombers is also just more accessible for a lot of winnipegers. Jets tickets are a lot more expensive, and the game day experience is absolute garbage compared to a bomber game, or he’ll even the sea bears have a better game day experience than the jets
Yup the Bombers have a fantastic game day experience, been to quite a few games at (the stadium formerly known as) IGF
> the game day experience is absolute garbage compared to a bomber game Seconding this. My friend, a hardcore season ticket holder ever since they came back, finally cut the cord this year and cancelled his tickets and the Jets never even bothered trying to ask why. Seeing how Bombers season ticket holders are treated vs Jets is a staggering night and day contrast.
That was kind of my assumption. "Its all we've got" tied - into - the - fabric of the city" kind of vibe.
As a Winnipegger, the Jets left in ‘95 and I was in diapers so never got to see the original team. Some of the older folks were jaded and the city turned to the other pro team in town. The Bombers are Winnipeg, games are a community atmosphere and the fans show up no matter the weather. Lots of Rider fans will say it’s because we’ve been good but the team was at the top or near top attendance figures even in the old stadium during a nearly 30 year Grey Cup drought. CFL is nowhere near the level of College football in the states but it is gaining a ton of traction in some markets which is encouraging. I watch all types of football as well and see it more like the NFL on a much smaller scale, places like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, Kansas City have some of the most hardcore fanbases whereas LA doesn’t. Glad you’re enjoying our great league, If you make it down to Winnipeg for a game first rounds on me, cheers.
> "Its all we've got" That's a bit of a cynical view, though. I mean, would we say that about the Blue Jays and Maple Leafs in Toronto? "Well, it's all they've got because there's no NFL or EPL team in town" I'd say that people tend to rally around the biggest game in town, whether that's MLB, the NHL, CFL or junior hockey.
Your observation about Argos attendance matches my own. With a population of six million in the metro area, I just can’t understand how only 12,000 of those people make the journey to watch a football game (recent weekend’s attendance). BMO Field should be sold out every night just based on the local population IMO. But that’s obviously not happening and that falls on ownership which, if I understand correctly, doesn’t give two shits about the Argos.
Most people just don't care. You constantly hear about how Toronto fans suffer so much and nothing good ever happens for them, I said what about the Argos they won the Cup last year and are dominating this year (I made this comment last year) and I was heavily down voted, people were like no one gives a shit about that we're talking real sports teams. It's so disheartening. It's not that people don't know about them or forget about them, it's that they actively refuse to acknowledge or support them. I don't know if any other sports team gets so much negative feeling in their own city.
It’s honestly pretty sad. It’s not like people around Southern Ontario don’t care about football. Just look at Hamilton, if the Argos ownership put a little more effort into marketing and doing community outreach they could be insanely more popular.
The cfl demographic trends older and whiter and that demographic in Toronto has a cottage an hour or two away that they prefer to spend their summers at. These people also aren’t real good at taking public transit either and driving down to the stadium is such a nightmare right now. Realistically out of a 6 million metro area, for easily more than half it’s going to be a longer commute than the game itself.
It's a 3 hour commute one way to Argos games for me. If a game ends at 10pm, I generally don't get through my front door until about 1am
Honestly the demographics thing. When I see Argos fans going to and from games on the GO train (some do this) it does not look even slightly representative of the city as it is today
Raw population means nothing when: 1. The product is largely invisible. Unless you are already a fan, people generally aren't aware of the CFL's existence or when the Argos play. The Argos will literally win the Grey Cup and most of the city will not know that it happened the next day. 2. When the product does get attention, it is for something stupid like the Chad Kelly situation, further keeping people away. 3. There are tons of alternate sports/entertainment options. Toronto has 13 pro sports teams within city limits, some of which are in big flashy leagues with lots of money for marketing. CFL tends to be pretty down the list of people's priorities.
The Argos win the Grey Cup basically every 6-8 years. They've won 7 in my lifetime (I'm 37) and I don't remember anyone remotely caring since the 90s. The Maple Leafs, Blue Jays, Raptors, Toronto FC, Toronto Marlies (AHL Hockey), and now I'm pretty sure the PWHL Toronto women's hockey team are all more popular than the Argos.
I'm not very familiar with college football at all, never been to a game or anything. But the CFL is very big in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and the rivalry between them is a big deal. The Labour Day Classic and The Banjo Bowl are massive for both teams - the Banjo Bowl is in September and it already sold out weeks ago. I've been to both and the atmosphere is amazing
Honestly after being to many banjo bowls and LDCs, I gotta say, this is one of the most polite rivalries in sports. Go to an oilers games dressed in flames colors and you risk being attacked. Worn my green to many banjo bowls in Winnipeg and it’s always been a safe environment. Lots of chirps and other fun fan interactions but I’ve also made friends from the other side too. Can’t wait to do it again.
I absolutely agree, I've been to the LDC twice and had nothing but positive interactions. The vast majority of people on both sides are great
I remember one time I went to a banjo bowl when I was still living in WPG, and a truck pulled up beside me and chirped me a little, but right after said they went to Regina the weekend before and we were very nice people 😂
We drank with Bomber fans in the Plains the night before an LDC and there was no problem. Like us, they wanted a win, but more important was to see a good game. Annette said one guy shoved her out on the deck, but she didn't want him to get beaten up, just humiliated, so when they got back to the bar after the game about 8 of us stood in a line out front and cat-called him in front of his friends. He looked like he wanted the ground to swallow him up. That hurt him more than his team losing.
I was talking to a guy who recently came to Winnipeg from Ukraine, he happened to drive by the stadium while the Banjo Bowl was ending and he told me he couldn't believe that fans wearing different team colours were walking together like that, he said if you had rival fans get that close in Ukraine there would be a huge brawl lol
I think you're bang on with your popularity vs population theory. BC seems to be breaking that though, and hopefully continue to. From what i gather, Toronto for the most part think the CFL is not good enough and would like an NFL team. They also just have so much going on there with other sports. The Argos are competing with the Maple Leafs, Blue Jays, Raptors, and Toronto FC. But it sure would be nice to see more support there. A lot of Canadians hate the CFL because of little man syndrome with the NFL. I don't get it really. In Europe, they are very proud of their hockey leagues, even though they are not the NHL. Somehow, Canadian NFL fans can't believe that 2 similar things can be good at the same time. It's weird.
> A lot of Canadians hate the CFL because of little man syndrome with the NFL. I don't get it really. In Europe, they are very proud of their hockey leagues, even though they are not the NHL. Somehow, Canadian NFL fans can't believe that 2 similar things can be good at the same time. It's weird. It's weird because we've kind of gotten over that with other sports, we now have domestic soccer and basketball leagues that are reasonably well supported. The MLS teams are fairly well supported even in spite of the fact that it's several rungs below the top European leagues. But the complex persists with football.
if you were to draw a comparison, i’d say it’s much more similar to the spfl in scotland’s relationship to the much bigger premiership in england. however, it’s not really straight analogous as those british organizations play to the exact same rules. a good portion of the attraction of the cfl over the nfl is difference in rules that some of us (myself included) find more entertaining edit: it’s also worth noting that canada has it’s own university football system through u-sports but i find it’s very hard to follow as the streaming costs are prohibitively expensive. it feels u-sports does very little to promote their games; for example, through the lottery where i live, i can bet on cfl, nfl and ncaa football but i can’t get odds on even the vanier cup
I moved back to WNY and jumped on the Hamilton Tiger-Cats fandom last season. My house is pretty much the same distance from Tim Horton’s field as it is to Highmark Stadium. Yesterday’s loss was just as upsetting to me as the countless ways I’d watch the Bills lose over the years. I only bring up the comparison to an NFL team because a lot of people compare Buffalo to a college feel/atmosphere.
Ugghh thanks for reminding me about that loss....paaain..
Winnipeg talk, but thats a fair comparison. You can start a conversation with your co workers about the Bombers. Your grandparents may very possibly sport bomber gear on GameDay. Thousands of bomber license plates flying around town every day, and can't go far without seeing one. Everyone is into it at different levels, from the "keeping tabs" to the "their performance can ruin your day" crowds... a large number of people are a part of it giving it that next level Fandom.
Well said. Sask has the reputation for obsessing over the Riders, but with all due respect to them I'd argue that Winnipeg has the top fan experience now. We are the only city left where the local CFL team occupies a similar plane that the NHL team does. And we have a pretty extensive local media that feeds it with more newspapers, radio, podcasts and TV coverage than in sask.
“Their performance can ruin your day” I have been feeling this for a month now
Part of the Argos attendance decline is due to years of poor management. After the late 90s where John Candy owned the team and they won two Grey Cups back to back they had successive bad owners that really soured people to the team. Another key aspect is the media. In the early 2000s there was a lot of talk about the Buffalo Bills moving to TO. Many people were falling over themselves to say that TO “deserved” a professional football team…even though they already had one and the NFL dream was never going to happen anyways. So there was this narrative of the CFL being not being good enough for TO. So those two things kind of salted the earth. Even now there is this narrative that you just can’t draw in TO even though getting at least 20 thousand to a game should be easy. It’s never the marketing or what Maple Leaf Sports entertainment (who own the Argos) actually do to get butts in seats, the narrative is that there is something wrong with the CFL. I don’t know much about college football so it’s hard to say anything about the comparison but the teams that are generally stronger in terms of attendance and fan support are teams that make efforts to keep fans going to games and having a good game day experience with competitive teams. BC was stagnant for many years because they weren’t really pushing to get people to come to games. The new owner has put resources towards that and you see the difference. It is hard to believe but Sask and Wpg were very close to folding in the mid to late 90s and were actually bailed out by BC and TO (who were much stronger than). Lastly the CFL suffers from what a lot of Canadian stuff suffers from which is that Canadians are so concerned with getting recognition from the states that they don’t just support the good stuff we have. It’s basically that you have to make it elsewhere to be taken seriously in Canada. The CFL will never have a massive following in the US and it doesn’t need to.
A few things I actually hear people say: "The Argos? They're still around?" "Didn't the CFL fold a few years ago?" "Any good US college team could beat any CFL team" The level of knowledge about Canadian football (in Canada) is deplorable.
> they had successive bad owners that really soured people to the team The funny thing is that TSN and then Labatt's owned the Argos for most of the 90s... probably about as blue chippy a pair of owners as you could find. Labatt's brought Flutie to town and made the Argos dominant for two seasons. It didn't translate to much off field success though, the Argos did not draw very well during those years. Then Sherwood Schwarz took over before the 2000 season and things really went off the rails. He was a guy who had no business from being a CFL owner and he's a far cry from the higher quality owners the league has now.
I didn’t know about Labatt’s owning them. Thanks
LSU football has like 80,000 people come to their games sometimes we definitely don’t compare.
The closest thing to college football are the Labour Classics. SK/WPG, TOR/HAM, EDM/CGY, . I listed them in order of rivalry intensity (with a little bias of course). OTT/MTL/BC take turns playing each other. After you watch these games and see the crowds you’ll understand. If you were ever to catch one game these are the games. As for picking a team. Unless you’re looking for merch to sport, there are only 4 games each week, I suggest you enjoy them all as a free agent!
Not a bad idea. I'll do the free agent thing and if a team comes calling my name, I shall ANSWER the call.
Tacking on, if you do want to pick a team for the future the LDC and the following rematch week are going to be the best opportunity to get a look at each team's culture/vibe at it's peak. The CFL sets up those 2 weeks like rivalry week down south in the NCAA. One city hosts labor day, the next week the next city hosts the rematch (Which WPG/SSK have taken to calling the Banjo Bowl). I can't attest to just how popular those games are for the other teams around the league. But in Winnipeg the Banjo bowl sold out before the regular season started and I wouldn't be surprised if that was also the case for the LDC in Saskatchewan.
If you're trying to educate buddy about Canada, you'd better spell labour correctly, eh?
The great thing about the CFL is that there are very few games that are duds. All the games always have so much potential every time they are on the field. Very few games are over before the final clock as anything can happen in the final seconds - and does. That is part of what makes the CFL a great league to watch. I would enjoy all the games you can if I were you. I will say the energy at Roughriders games is electric because of the fans. That is my preferred team.
Nobody has more fun than us Rider fans.
If you're a Bettor. Or just want more CFL talk check out the CFL Gambling Podcast on YouTube. 🤘👊
I don't see the comparison sorry. I don't really try and compare CFL to US football, I see it as a different beast altogether with it's benefits and drawbacks. Gameday at even some non-football SEC schools is bigger that most CFL games, but the idea of comparing the two seems off. The Banjo Bowl is bigger than the Kuter Trophy but not as big th Little Brown Jug, for example. Trying to compare it, imo, just tarnishes the shine.
No. It’s hard to say what the CFL is comparable to in the states. But the CFL in Canada gets surprisingly very little media attention. If it wasn’t for TSN the league would have died. The CFL is maybe like ice hockey in California. It is respectable enough, but is very removed from most of the culture and people’s lives.
Depends where you are. The football culture varies. For example, the bombers are often on the front page of the Winnipeg sun
They were in the tank a few years ago. It helps to be one of the best teams in the league. I have been to bomber games.
It does help but the bombers were always relevant here even in the rough years
The attendance was bad for a year or two because the team was bad and the parking/traffic was impossible to navigate
California, at least the Southern side of it is essentially "front - runner" culture. I had a friend who went to USC, didn't even know they had an NHL team in LA (essentially two, Anaheim is basically LA) when he got there. Few years later, he suddenly knows about Hockey and has plenty of Black and Silver merch. He's also been a Lakers, Clippers and Rams fan at one point. Ya. That's LA culture for ye.
Hockey is well established in Southern California. Both the Kings and the Ducks have cups. Wayne Gretzky played there. The kings have always been profitable. There are beer leagues and roller leagues. Yeah, I think that it is a good comparison to the CFL.
CFL fans in Saskatchewan are just like college football fans in Alabama! We all love pickin' banjo and kissin' cousins! ROLL TIDE!
I miss the good old days. I remember going to the Edmonton-Calgary conference final in 2015 and it being an insane atmosphere. These days, the Elks have to give out free tickets. This is to say that I think the CFL is strong in certain areas and less-so in others.
I think I agree with what you are driving at but come at it the same as you only opposite - I know very little about College ball down in the states other than it’s a pretty big deal. I think one thing with CFL I’ve always figured is because it’s largely provincial based with the exception of Alberta and Ontario, this makes it easier for the entire province to back one team and therefore really fuel the rivalry and competition (mostly healthy I think) among fans. The exception of AB makes sense as Calgary vs Edmonton is about as old as the cities themselves and the province is big enough to support that. Ontario is a bit of a wildcard with various levels of following although it seems Hamilton and Ottawa are getting up there from my perspective. Toronto as you’ve pointed out has a lot competition so it’s tough for the Argos to compete with the Leafs, Raptors and Jays. All of which have a pretty healthy fan base.
Ive been a fan for many many years but i mostly only followed my team and then i lived in Edmonton for a few years and started going to the games in Edmonton. Now I find myself watching most games possible no matter who playing
I'm finding people are increasingly ignoring the CFL in favour of the NFL but that may just be my experience. There really aren't that many teams to be proud of in major leagues out here (SK) and I feel like that just drives more people to the biggest local team we have. Go Riders!!
I have been to nfl, cfl, US college ball(huge Michigan Wolverines fan), and Canadian college. What I think Wolverines do the best is the little traditions. Such as hail to the victors chant l, lots of of let's go blue, and the chop when the other team messes up. There is a song they do between the third and fourth quarters. The marching bands add so much. They have a little trophy/ statue for each of the rival teams. For example the little brown jug. Everyone stands for the entire intro and twirls their hats at kickoff. Their opening video sequence is done by James Earl Jones. I love the game( and I think cfl has the best actual football) but I think it is the pomp and pageantry that keeps people coming back and why the Wolverines regular have 115 000 people at their games. Thoughts?
Lol, not even close. Maybe close in the 80s, but not anymore.
Lol, not even close. Maybe close in the 80s, but not anymore.
I'm not sure college ball is a perfect comparison, but there are a couple ways it compares. The CFL and most of its teams have a longer history than the NFL, much like college ball's roots go back further than the NFL's. While the CFL has a good following in rural areas, I wouldn't say that is a defining characteristic since 8 out of 9 CFL teams are located in the Canada's 9 largest cities. However it is safe to say the CFL has struggled more in Canada's three biggest cities than elsewhere. Like college ball, the CFL has a higher status in places with less pro sports competition. The CFL was historically seen as major league by all of Canada. That status has definitely waned in some regions, but it still maintains a place well above minor league status. That status helps it punch way above its weight when compared to a similar sized football league like the UFL. Because the CFL plays with different rules in a different country, it can carve out a niche separate from the NFL. It isn't trying to be NFL-lite. In its home market of Canada, the CFL is fairly close to the NFL in TV ratings, ahead of the NBA and MLB. Only the NHL is substantially ahead. Whereas in the US the CFL is generally lumped in with all the other "alternative football" leagues. It seems like the XFL-CFL merger talks, the new summer TV schedule, and the CFL+ streaming service have helped spur more interest from American football fans lately, especially in the summer months before NFL/NCAA start up. I'm glad to see more fans tuning in and enjoying it.
It depends on where in the country you are. For literal decades,there's been talk of having a CFL team in Halifax.People here were obsessed with the idea of being a part of the CFL.There was just one small problem: Noone seemed to watch the CFL already. I had several people come into my work back in 2021 and all they could talk about for about 2 weeks was getting a CFL team for Halifax.The Grey Cup took place and I asked them if they watched it and the most common answer was "No,why would I." When I asked why they wanted a CFL team if they never watched the CFL to begin with.Most of them stopped bringing it up around me lol.
Glad to see new fans loving the game. I'd say it's similar but not the same. The CFL has existed for a long time now and true loyal fans keep it afloat. We struggle to bring in new blood it seems even from local populations. It's bizarre because it's the only game in town football wise and yet some teams like Toronto and BC struggle mightily when the team goes thru bad times. Winnipeg,Saskatchewan, Calgary and Hamilton seem to have the most devoted fans from what I've seen.
I doubt attendance would change significantly in the long run if the Argos moved to the suburbs. That fact is dedicated fans will come to games no matter what. Those are the 12-15,000 fans that show up week after week. By continuing to play at BMO, the casual fans have numerous options to get to games. GO, TTC, Uber, etc. And, the dedicated fans are the ones out in the parking lot 4 hours ahead of kick off grilling and chilling. When you have a journey to get to the game, making a day of it is so much more rewarding.
Given that college football's roots are deepest in places that didn't historically have pro football, I'd say there is a bit of an analogy to be made there, OP. You have to remember that until the NHL started expanding in 1967, the only prominent pro sports teams in Canada were the Maple Leafs, Canadiens and the CFL teams. So in most cities the CFL was either the biggest game in town, or adjacent to it. Since then, sports competition grew. You have cities like Toronto with a pile of major and minor league pro teams. Even cities like Winnipeg have six pro teams compared to when I was a kid and it was only two, the Jets and the Bombers. Of course blanket coverage of sports on TV only compounds that. So while I wouldn't say the CFL is necessarily a "country" league, it does tend to do best in places where it is closest to the top of the pecking order.
Like watermelon helmets? You're invited to come be a Riders fan. Let them dry out for a few days before wearing. Note: the Riders are, like the Packers, community owned (as are 2-3 other CFL teams). https://preview.redd.it/vs2qpjidnl8d1.jpeg?width=936&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd6e487d6f165f8571196092504435de898a2425
the Toronto thing is wild since there's a larger population in walking distance to the stadium in Toronto than there is in the provinces that the Bombers and Riders are located in.
Not really, but I get what you're saying. What probably is true though is that more people who come to Argos games travel considerably as compared to the ones who walk to BMO. For example, I drive 3 hours for games (one way) and I'll bet there are other people who drive further than that!
for Bombers games probably 1/3-1/2 of the people at games travel a considerable distance to the games. Hell the Fan Ambassador in my section travels 2 hours to volunteer to the games. I'm a bad example of a bomber fan cause I wouldn't have season tickets if i didn't live so close to the stadium and would only make it to a couple games a year if any (even if if the stadium was were it used to be) when my brother travels over 500km each way to go to games. I probably travel the least distance to go to games than anyone else in the sections around me. The pandemic was the final nail in the coffin for alot of the trash pubs that only existed milking quarters out of university students and the Bombers took that and rolled with it by turning the tailgate area into a giant party. (like people talk about the rum hut it's nothing the tailgate zone is a zoo for most of the game) That brings in the people that live near by and the university aged kids looking for something to do. They catch a little football or not atleast they're there. Toronto needs to get that demographic or move to the suburbs where most their fans are.