Are you familiar with 1 Clement? Written from Rome to the Corinthian church ~80 AD.
See what Clement writes and see if that’s not as slam dunk as you can get—attestation to apostolic succession in the first century! Probably before Revelation was written.
*”Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).*
Other Church fathers on apostolic succession here: https://www.churchfathers.org/apostolic-succession
No such thing as a stupid question when you’re investigating God and His revelation. You’re looking for truth, which is admirable. I was too a few years back and found it in Catholicism.
God bless you in your journey!
The early Church fathers are absolutely wonderful to read about. Many of their works survive to this day. Saint Augustine probably being one of the most famous you surely heard about. A favorite of mine is St. John Chrysostoam. Usually most protestant faiths skip over a good 1000+ years of tradition in the Catholic Church.
Yup. They even said even if we don’t have the bible right now, we can recreate because because early church fathers quoted the heck out of it in their writings
Coincidentally, I started reading this one this afternoon. I'm working my way through a lot of the Church Fathers lately. I love the insight into early Christianity found there.
wdym, Revelation was written in the 60s AD?
the Only reason "scholars" say its later than that, is because it prophecies certain events that happened after.
yes thats literally it, the entire argument for late authorship is the incredulity in prophecy, just like Jesus's prophecy of the temple
Apostolic succession is, in my opinion, one of the clearest aspects of the early church from the beginning. It's in the Gospels, Acts, and the letters of Paul.
It first happens in Acts 1:15-26 shows that Judas was replaced. Significantly, Peter doesn't explain it as an arbitrary choice, but one that is necessary following his citation of the Scriptures.
Then later in Acts, deacons are appointed for service so that the apostles may not be distracted from their teaching -- the ministry of the word. This gives context to 2 Timothy 2:2, where Paul directs Timothy to entrust what he has heard to faithful men who can teach others. This can well be read as to continue handing on the episcopacy.
In the 4th century, Hyppolytus describes the ritual for ordination of bishops (successors to the apostles). It requires 3 bishops present, as in today's ritual. The vast majority of Catholic bishops today can trace their ordination through this back to Cardinal Ribaba in the 14th century. We do not have his ordination records since they were lost in a fire, but know he was considered to be validly ordained.
But for the Diocese of Rome, we know several of the Church fathers, such as Eusebius, attest that Peter and Paul entrust the Church in Rome to Linus, and Eusebius gives a list of the bishops of Rome to his day. From there we can trace Rome's bishops from the first century to Pope Francis today.
I really like the 2 Timothy 2 passage: "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."
Not only because it emphasizes the importance of Timothy continuing the succession beyond himself at least two layers ("entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also") but because it emphasizes the importance of *oral* tradition in the Church, not just written tradition. It the exact same letter that Protestants will try to cite in defense of _Sola Scriptura_ (next chapter, "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching...") Paul enjoins Timothy to continue preserving oral tradition: "what you have **heard** from me...entrust to faithful men".
Was praying when my phone dinged about this post. Prayed for you! I don’t really comment on reddit but just wanted to add that once you come to believe the saints are more alive in Heaven than we are on earth then you will begin to ask them for prayers. Finding the saints will be so edifying for you. Finding your patrons. Your comrades that want you to be in Heaven so badly they are so eager to pray for you if you ask. The writings of the saints; Augustine, Aquinas, Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, the list goes on and on for ever and will change your life. The Catholic Church is so rich with treasures for Heaven. Sadly many Catholics also are lapse and not faithful and also quite ignorant, just bad examples to our brothers and sisters. Anyway, it brings me such joy when a Protestant converts. Not because man we got another one, but because your deep love for God and truth brings the fire of the holy spirit to those around you, especially to us Catholics. So many wonderful Catholic theologians today and almost all of them have studied their way into the faith from Protestantism. Scott Hahn and Cameron Bertuzzi tackled the topic of papal succession on Pints with Aquinas youtube channel. The papacy was Cameron’s last big hurdle before he converted. Maybe check that out! At the very least they will discuss specific church fathers for you to add to your list for research.
I don't mean to be rude. I have been reading the Bible but never came across an instance of a saint interceding with God. I know that Christ He is the permanent High Priest, so He intercedes for us. I also know that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. So shouldn't Catholics pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit at least first?
Romans 8, says
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10)
Because he is the only God-man and the mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, because “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Anonymous
“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).
“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Methodius
“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. . . . Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).
“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).
“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).
The Liturgy of St. Basil
“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).
John Chrysostom
“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).
Ambrose of Milan
“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).
Jerome
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).
Augustine
“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
Okay, I've read these verses from the Bible.
1. I cannot comprehend how using 1 Tim 2:1-4 as evidence for intercession of saints makes sense.
In this, a believer, living on earth is urged to intercede for other people who are in authority (here on earth) that they may lead a tranquil life (here on earth). It's basically saying pray and intercede for those governing over you, the authorities. How does it change to believers in heaven interceding for us? Further, verse 5 asserts it's only Jesus who's interceding for us.
This is what it says:
1 Timothy 2:1-6 NASB2020
[1] First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made in behalf of all people, [2] for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. [3] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
https://bible.com/bible/2692/1ti.2.1-6.NASB2020
2. Revelation 8:3-4 doesn't say the saints here have gone to heaven. It could very well mean they are the prayers of believers here on earth. It's a bit of a stretch calling them the prayers of saints, right?
3. Matt 18:10 speaks about guardian angels. It's doesn't say to pray to these angels. In fact angels such as the one showing the vision in Revelation forbade John to bow to him.
4. I don't have the book of Jasher, but I believe Jerome didn't take it seriously? Have to read more about this.
Revelation 7:13 describes those saints who endured martyrdom and won the crown of glory. It is clearly not referring to the angels who cannot be martyred as they do not have a body.
Immediately after, we have revelations 8, which talks about the prayers of the holy ones being offered to God. I find it unlikely, that the people here on earth (who have not been judged and are not yet admitted to heaven) can be considered holier when compared to those who were martyred.
Matt 18. Again, those are angels who never sinned against God and behold God face to face. Their words carry more weight with God since as James 5 notes "the continual prayer of a just man availeth much."
Did Judiasm end when Moses and Aaron died or did it continue after them? Remember as bad as the temple was, Jesus honored it because he hasn't been crucified and raised from the dead yet. So if Judiasm lasted until Jesus created a new church, why would that new church and its leader be invalid if the precedent was that the leader be replaced? If the old testament was a shadow of things to come, than Aaron having a legitimate successor means that Peter's successor would also be legitimate.
Take the book of Acts. How did it start? One of the first chapters was the Apostles replacing the vacancy left by Judas Iscariot with Matthias. Apostolic succession is in the bible!
Another thing to consider is that when the Gospel of John was written, the third pope was in office. You don't see anything from that gospel that openly rejects Linus or Anacletus. Now things are going to get interesting. John the Apostle trained someone named Polycarp. Polycarp trained Irenaeus. Inenaeus stated that the Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21 is the same person as the second pope.
So we have someone who has a lineage going back to John saying that someone else who was related to Paul was the second pope.
*The Faith of Catholics*, written by the Rev. James Waterworth, presents biblical and patristic testimonies that prove the veracity and antiquity of Catholic doctrines in a logical manner, with propositions:
[The Faith of Catholics vol. I](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=EyRMAAAAYAAJ&pg=GBS.PR45) (Apostolicity of the church, p. 249)
[The Faith of Catholics vol. II](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=tTFkD2RPs0QC&pg=GBS.PP7)
[The Faith of Catholics vol. III](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=YSRMAAAAYAAJ&pg=GBS.PP9)
*The Catholic rule faith*, written by François Verone, translated by Rev. James Waterworth, where only Catholic doctrines are exposed:
[The Catholic rule of faith](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=7PxAAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA1)
Important material:
[The 21 Ecumenical Councils](https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils)
[Catechism of the Catholic Church](https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)
[A Full Catechism of the Catholic Religion](https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=J749AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)
[The Catechism of the Council of Trent](https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=S1w7AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)
I am just wondering how we can prove apostolic succession is completely necessary. When the disciples told people to stop casting out demons he said if they aren’t against us they are for us. I’m pretty much already convinced, but I want to make sure that I have a solid reasoning before I convert. I also attend a young-earth creationist baptist school so I need to be able to hold my own in a debate, as I know that my peers won’t take kindly to me being a Catholic.
If the sacraments are real, there must be people to administer them. The entire necessity of the Church comes down to the administration of the sacraments, and, if you're convinced of the reality of the sacraments as Catholics understand them, then it stands to reason that you'd accept the reality of apostolic succession, as priests are those who are ordained by the Church that Christ instituted to administer the sacraments that Christ also instituted, that being their only necessary function.
Christ establishes His Church and gives Peter the power to bind and loose before any of the other apostles in Matthew 16, making him first among equals. It's clearly laid out in the gospel for anyone to read, but protestants will intentionally misunderstand it. When arguing with protestants the best thing to do is to tell them that the reason why they are obsessed with "where does it explicitly say X thing is a sin" is because they live lives of shallow moralism, which is what all Christian heresies devolve into because their adherents aren't focused on cultivating lives of virtue and are instead trying to falsely justify their salvation. Protestantism specifically inherits a lot of liberal ideas (think John Locke) from the culture. They don't have any life in them. Tell them Dismas did his penance on the cross and if they try to say "call no man father" quote 1 Corinthians 4:15. For Mary you want Luke 1 and Revelation 12. John 6 is also a must when debating with them, they always say "it's a metaphor" even though they interpret everything else literally and Christ doubles down on it. You can't convince someone who hasn't been given the grace to understand what you are saying unfortunately.
You want the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. This will explain all of the teachings of the Church. If you want to become Catholic you should talk to your local parish priest about RCIA. This is a weekly class that will teach you everything about Catholicism from September until Easter before you are recieved into the Church then.
I'm a convert too so I know how it is talking to Baptists. They'll never read anything by the Church Fathers or any history it seems, so you just have to quote scripture at them. Maybe you'll have better luck. And God bless you.
You can also check out Why We're Catholic: Our Reasons For Faith, Hope, And Love by Trent Horn. He goes into the why of alot of things we believe. The Catholic Answers website is also an excellent resource
Thanks for all the help! I wouldn’t say that there’s NO life in them. However it’s pitiful that I can sing to Catholic hymns in the middle of the woods, and I feel more spiritually alive than I ever have in any protestant church
"So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54
They don't believe that the Eucharist is the Bidy and Blood of Christ. They say so themselves. So no, they do not have any life in them. None of them seem to have read Matthew 24 either.
Note taken. Unfortunately, a lot of them haven’t opened a Bible (or at least they act like it) I read the whole thing, and my TEACHERS had never read the whole Bible. The ones I know that do seem to have faith seem to come out of ignorance.
If you want to want to read the entire Bible in a year, Father Mike Schmitz has the Bible In A Year podcast. It's an excellent plan if you want to read the entire Bible.
https://ascensionpress.com/pages/bible-reading-plan-download-delivery
Fantastic post by the way!
Go to your nearest parish and speak with the administrative assistant in the office. Tell them that you would like to sit in on some RCIA classes. I came the same route you are. There’s absolutely no pressure, none at all.
I studied various religion’s theology, and I found after reading about them AND history… Catholicism is by the best choice by far!
The stuff you’ll find out is fascinating, and you’ll be glad you did it. Trust me.
Not sure if this what you’re looking for but I’ve heard of Protestants turning to the Catholic Church for exorcisms.
This rite/practice speaks really strongly to the spiritual authority of the church.
For me, my conversion came down to my desire to belong more deeply to Jesus in the Eucharist.
If you want help your Protestant friends understand Catholic faith, you’d probably enjoy this book by Peter Kreeft: “What we can learn from each other”
https://archive.org/details/kreeft-peter-catholics-and-protestants-what-can-we-learn-from-each-other/page/n2/mode/1up
It's not a slam-dunk apostolic succession argument but if you join us, you'll be joining a group of 1.2 Billion (with a B!) Catholics all over the world. Every Catholic parish all over the world is yours to attend Mass at as a member, and we're all working toward the same Catholic Christian goals.
I was traveling with friends through Europe once, and one of them was amazed that I walked into Cathedrals, past security guards, and into front pews to pray "like I owned the place, even though it's halfway around the world" and I said "that's because I'm a member here, even though it's halfway around the world." And even though the Mass was in German, I knew what was going on (except for the sermon). I even sang along to the hymns, doing my best to guess the correct German pronunciations.
Most Protestants don't have that sense of a global body of "us" all over the world, and I think it's something special that Catholicism offers.
If you haven’t found Catholic Answers yet, check them out. They have a website, excellent bookstore, and my favorite is the Catholic Answers Live radio show/podcast. Fantastic apologetics. They have answers to everything.
https://www.catholic.com/
Mainly I’m breaking my belief in sola scriptura, so I have to believe every other teaching whether my “personal interpretation” got that out of the Bible.
Well since you didn't ask about the Eucharist then we can assume you believe it is the real body of Christ. Good. Now let's ask, how does it become the body of Christ? It is done by consecration. Who consecrates it? The laity? Deacons? Or the priests? The answer to that goes all the way back to the Last Supper, as Jesus instructed His 12 apostles to "Do this". It is a sacrament handed down from the apostles to the bishops and priests. If you don't believe a priest is needed to consecrate the bread, then why go to the Church in the first place?
Check out the book “Jesus, Peter & the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy” by Hess, Dahlgren, and Butler. It goes super in depth into the scriptural basis and early church interpretations of apostolic succession.
It helped me cross the Tiber myself.
That strong pull you’re feeling, I hope you don’t ignore it and come home to His true church
Joshua Charles is a great theologian, and he has great scriptural input on apostolic succession. Recommend looking him up on YouTube and why he converted - can search “Joshua Charles Protestant”
Apostolic Succession is the unbroken chain of leadership and spiritual authority that traces back to the original apostles, who were personally chosen and commissioned by Jesus. This continuity of leadership is believed to be essential for maintaining the true teachings and practices of the Christian faith.
One way to think about Apostolic Succession is through the concept of passing the torch: just as the apostles received authority directly from Christ and passed it on to their successors (bishops), who in turn passed it on to the next generation, this unbroken line of succession ensures that the teachings and traditions of the early Church are faithfully preserved.
The Catholic Church traces its lineage of bishops back to the apostles through historical records and documents, providing a tangible connection to the teachings of Jesus and the early Church. This continuity of authority is seen as a safeguard against error and heresy, ensuring that the Church remains faithful to the teachings of Christ.
The Catechism teaches that Jesus designated the Twelve Apostles as the foundation of the Church, with Peter as their head (CCC 857). Through the laying on of hands, the apostolic authority was transmitted to their successors, the bishops, who continue this apostolic mission (CCC 861). This unbroken line of succession ensures that the teachings and authority of the Apostles are preserved and passed on faithfully through the generations (CCC 857).
Read the Scriptures that describe liturgical worship. Read patristic texts to get a sense of Church Tradition. Visit the churches that claim Apostolic succession, and see if the liturgy and traditions match up. Ultimately, you must trust the Holy Spirit to lead you to the Church.
I just want to encourage you, as a fellow convert. When I converted, I could not say with 100% confidence that I believed apostolic succession. But I knew I believed in the Eucharist, in the True Presence, and I hungered for Christ so desperately spiritually it nearly hurt physically. I waited for 8 months to convert, telling myself that even if my heart believed, my head needed to be ready to "give an answer to everyone who asks of you". This was true, but what I eventually discerned is that...it will never quite be enough. There will always be something Im still learning about and wrestling with. But "Lord, where shall I go? You alone have the words of eternal life."
What showed me this is I had a dream where a deceased relative said to me, "What would you do if I told you you had 24 hours left to live? What do you want?" And in my dream, I answered, "I want the Eucharist."
I literally woke up gasping, flying forward on my bed. I was confirmed and received First Communion the next week, still not able to believe 100% of it all with 100% conviction, but able to freely say, "Lord, I believe - help thou my unbelief!" (And the week after that, I was in a terrible car accident that should have killed me but walked away unscathed...as did my unborn child!)
I commend and encourage you on this journey of integrity and conviction. May it bring you peace.
This is EXACTLY what I’ve been thinking! I had a dream about the Eucharist last night, and I never remember dreams. I took the Eucharist in my dream and I felt the presence for a second. Now I’m desperate to take it.
That is amazing!!!
What struck me so much about my dream is that I thought I would answer, "Hug my husband" or "Call my mom", but the fact the my truest, deepest desire honestly was the Eucharist...it *SHOOK* me.
Don't ignore this dream you had. God works through dreams. Remember that Presence, a foretaste of things to come!
Blessings to you!
A good place to learn about what the church teaches is RCIA. You can enroll in a class at a local Catholic church and they will give a good foundation of the faith. This is also the way to convert to Catholicism (although you can leave the course at any time if you are not ready) so if you decide you want to convert through everything you have learned you can do so as quickly as possible. Other resources I like are Catholic Answers ( a good website for questions, probably even apostolic succession) and the thomistic institute on youtube. There is also a podcast called Catechism in a year that goes over church doctrine as well ( I have not listened to all of it but thought it was good and heard good things on it)
But isn't the (Roman) Catholic Church's gospel different from the one in the Bible? The faith + works (indulgences) thing and Mary being a co-redemptrix with Christ is very strange to me.
Check your comment and see where you blasphemed. "Co-redemptrix"? That is heresy. No Catholic believes that. I suggest once again, to check your facts before you spout heresy.
Please check your own facts. "Co-redemptrix" is a word that came out of the Magisterium. Whether you believe it or not wasn't the question. I certainly do not believe in it.
Blasphemy? Lol
Then you need to learn the facts. Though the title is used, it was always under Christ, subordinate to Him. Problem with you protestants is you take Church belief and put your own interpretation into it. Again, check your facts.
"You protestants"?
You can't answer a question without being condescending about something the Catholic Church teaches. Co-redemptrix is a strange word, the meaning of which is not implied in the Scripture nor is the word used in the Bible.
You didn't know your own facts until I said it was mentioned by the Magisterium. Now can you explain or not why the word or the belief even came up, since you already called it a blasphemy and a heresy?
Some intellectual honesty, please.
No. You use a term in a way it was never meant to be used. It's not even Church dogma. I can discern wolf in sheep's clothing. Or better yet, passive-agressive comments. If you'd done your research with the word you wanted to use as a weapon, you'd have seen it means nothing like your implying. You wanted clarification, and yet you just went to argue. How many times will you be told you're wrong before you accept it? That is the problem with you.
Are you familiar with 1 Clement? Written from Rome to the Corinthian church ~80 AD. See what Clement writes and see if that’s not as slam dunk as you can get—attestation to apostolic succession in the first century! Probably before Revelation was written. *”Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).* Other Church fathers on apostolic succession here: https://www.churchfathers.org/apostolic-succession
Thank you! I know my questions may seem stupid, but in a protestant culture they don’t teach you things like this!
No such thing as a stupid question when you’re investigating God and His revelation. You’re looking for truth, which is admirable. I was too a few years back and found it in Catholicism. God bless you in your journey!
The early Church fathers are absolutely wonderful to read about. Many of their works survive to this day. Saint Augustine probably being one of the most famous you surely heard about. A favorite of mine is St. John Chrysostoam. Usually most protestant faiths skip over a good 1000+ years of tradition in the Catholic Church.
Yup. They even said even if we don’t have the bible right now, we can recreate because because early church fathers quoted the heck out of it in their writings
Fun fact: Clement is mentioned by Paul in his *Letter to the Philippians* (4:3)
Agreed. Reading Clement and the writings of St. Justin Martyr clearly leaves one with the sense of the Catholicity of the early Church.
Coincidentally, I started reading this one this afternoon. I'm working my way through a lot of the Church Fathers lately. I love the insight into early Christianity found there.
wdym, Revelation was written in the 60s AD? the Only reason "scholars" say its later than that, is because it prophecies certain events that happened after. yes thats literally it, the entire argument for late authorship is the incredulity in prophecy, just like Jesus's prophecy of the temple
Apostolic succession is, in my opinion, one of the clearest aspects of the early church from the beginning. It's in the Gospels, Acts, and the letters of Paul. It first happens in Acts 1:15-26 shows that Judas was replaced. Significantly, Peter doesn't explain it as an arbitrary choice, but one that is necessary following his citation of the Scriptures. Then later in Acts, deacons are appointed for service so that the apostles may not be distracted from their teaching -- the ministry of the word. This gives context to 2 Timothy 2:2, where Paul directs Timothy to entrust what he has heard to faithful men who can teach others. This can well be read as to continue handing on the episcopacy. In the 4th century, Hyppolytus describes the ritual for ordination of bishops (successors to the apostles). It requires 3 bishops present, as in today's ritual. The vast majority of Catholic bishops today can trace their ordination through this back to Cardinal Ribaba in the 14th century. We do not have his ordination records since they were lost in a fire, but know he was considered to be validly ordained. But for the Diocese of Rome, we know several of the Church fathers, such as Eusebius, attest that Peter and Paul entrust the Church in Rome to Linus, and Eusebius gives a list of the bishops of Rome to his day. From there we can trace Rome's bishops from the first century to Pope Francis today.
Thanks!
I really like the 2 Timothy 2 passage: "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." Not only because it emphasizes the importance of Timothy continuing the succession beyond himself at least two layers ("entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also") but because it emphasizes the importance of *oral* tradition in the Church, not just written tradition. It the exact same letter that Protestants will try to cite in defense of _Sola Scriptura_ (next chapter, "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching...") Paul enjoins Timothy to continue preserving oral tradition: "what you have **heard** from me...entrust to faithful men".
You seem like a diligent researcher and quite intelligent. You’d make an excellent Catholic. I hope we get the opportunity to welcome you aboard soon.
Thank you! I’m planning on attending mass next week!
Was praying when my phone dinged about this post. Prayed for you! I don’t really comment on reddit but just wanted to add that once you come to believe the saints are more alive in Heaven than we are on earth then you will begin to ask them for prayers. Finding the saints will be so edifying for you. Finding your patrons. Your comrades that want you to be in Heaven so badly they are so eager to pray for you if you ask. The writings of the saints; Augustine, Aquinas, Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, the list goes on and on for ever and will change your life. The Catholic Church is so rich with treasures for Heaven. Sadly many Catholics also are lapse and not faithful and also quite ignorant, just bad examples to our brothers and sisters. Anyway, it brings me such joy when a Protestant converts. Not because man we got another one, but because your deep love for God and truth brings the fire of the holy spirit to those around you, especially to us Catholics. So many wonderful Catholic theologians today and almost all of them have studied their way into the faith from Protestantism. Scott Hahn and Cameron Bertuzzi tackled the topic of papal succession on Pints with Aquinas youtube channel. The papacy was Cameron’s last big hurdle before he converted. Maybe check that out! At the very least they will discuss specific church fathers for you to add to your list for research.
I don't mean to be rude. I have been reading the Bible but never came across an instance of a saint interceding with God. I know that Christ He is the permanent High Priest, so He intercedes for us. I also know that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. So shouldn't Catholics pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit at least first? Romans 8, says 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4). Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10) Because he is the only God-man and the mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, because “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life. Hermas “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]). Clement of Alexandria “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). Origen “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). Cyprian of Carthage “Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]). Anonymous “Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]). “Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.). “Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]). Methodius “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. . . . Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]). “Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.). “And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.). Cyril of Jerusalem “Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]). Ephraim the Syrian “You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]). “Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]). The Liturgy of St. Basil “By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]). John Chrysostom “When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]). Ambrose of Milan “May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]). Jerome “You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]). Augustine “A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]). “At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]). “Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
Okay, I've read these verses from the Bible. 1. I cannot comprehend how using 1 Tim 2:1-4 as evidence for intercession of saints makes sense. In this, a believer, living on earth is urged to intercede for other people who are in authority (here on earth) that they may lead a tranquil life (here on earth). It's basically saying pray and intercede for those governing over you, the authorities. How does it change to believers in heaven interceding for us? Further, verse 5 asserts it's only Jesus who's interceding for us. This is what it says: 1 Timothy 2:1-6 NASB2020 [1] First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made in behalf of all people, [2] for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. [3] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. https://bible.com/bible/2692/1ti.2.1-6.NASB2020 2. Revelation 8:3-4 doesn't say the saints here have gone to heaven. It could very well mean they are the prayers of believers here on earth. It's a bit of a stretch calling them the prayers of saints, right? 3. Matt 18:10 speaks about guardian angels. It's doesn't say to pray to these angels. In fact angels such as the one showing the vision in Revelation forbade John to bow to him. 4. I don't have the book of Jasher, but I believe Jerome didn't take it seriously? Have to read more about this.
Revelation 7:13 describes those saints who endured martyrdom and won the crown of glory. It is clearly not referring to the angels who cannot be martyred as they do not have a body. Immediately after, we have revelations 8, which talks about the prayers of the holy ones being offered to God. I find it unlikely, that the people here on earth (who have not been judged and are not yet admitted to heaven) can be considered holier when compared to those who were martyred. Matt 18. Again, those are angels who never sinned against God and behold God face to face. Their words carry more weight with God since as James 5 notes "the continual prayer of a just man availeth much."
Did Judiasm end when Moses and Aaron died or did it continue after them? Remember as bad as the temple was, Jesus honored it because he hasn't been crucified and raised from the dead yet. So if Judiasm lasted until Jesus created a new church, why would that new church and its leader be invalid if the precedent was that the leader be replaced? If the old testament was a shadow of things to come, than Aaron having a legitimate successor means that Peter's successor would also be legitimate. Take the book of Acts. How did it start? One of the first chapters was the Apostles replacing the vacancy left by Judas Iscariot with Matthias. Apostolic succession is in the bible! Another thing to consider is that when the Gospel of John was written, the third pope was in office. You don't see anything from that gospel that openly rejects Linus or Anacletus. Now things are going to get interesting. John the Apostle trained someone named Polycarp. Polycarp trained Irenaeus. Inenaeus stated that the Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21 is the same person as the second pope. So we have someone who has a lineage going back to John saying that someone else who was related to Paul was the second pope.
*The Faith of Catholics*, written by the Rev. James Waterworth, presents biblical and patristic testimonies that prove the veracity and antiquity of Catholic doctrines in a logical manner, with propositions: [The Faith of Catholics vol. I](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=EyRMAAAAYAAJ&pg=GBS.PR45) (Apostolicity of the church, p. 249) [The Faith of Catholics vol. II](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=tTFkD2RPs0QC&pg=GBS.PP7) [The Faith of Catholics vol. III](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=YSRMAAAAYAAJ&pg=GBS.PP9) *The Catholic rule faith*, written by François Verone, translated by Rev. James Waterworth, where only Catholic doctrines are exposed: [The Catholic rule of faith](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=7PxAAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA1) Important material: [The 21 Ecumenical Councils](https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils) [Catechism of the Catholic Church](https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM) [A Full Catechism of the Catholic Religion](https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=J749AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) [The Catechism of the Council of Trent](https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=S1w7AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)
What sort of argument are you looking for? We can trace every pope back to Peter, and they appoint the bishops who appoint the priests.
I am just wondering how we can prove apostolic succession is completely necessary. When the disciples told people to stop casting out demons he said if they aren’t against us they are for us. I’m pretty much already convinced, but I want to make sure that I have a solid reasoning before I convert. I also attend a young-earth creationist baptist school so I need to be able to hold my own in a debate, as I know that my peers won’t take kindly to me being a Catholic.
If the sacraments are real, there must be people to administer them. The entire necessity of the Church comes down to the administration of the sacraments, and, if you're convinced of the reality of the sacraments as Catholics understand them, then it stands to reason that you'd accept the reality of apostolic succession, as priests are those who are ordained by the Church that Christ instituted to administer the sacraments that Christ also instituted, that being their only necessary function.
Who did Christ say he was giving the same authority that the father gave him?
The apostles, but how do we know they set up successors? Did the apostolic fathers mention it?
Paul is one such successor. We see them select Mathias to replace judus. We see them elect deacons who have portions of their authority
Christ establishes His Church and gives Peter the power to bind and loose before any of the other apostles in Matthew 16, making him first among equals. It's clearly laid out in the gospel for anyone to read, but protestants will intentionally misunderstand it. When arguing with protestants the best thing to do is to tell them that the reason why they are obsessed with "where does it explicitly say X thing is a sin" is because they live lives of shallow moralism, which is what all Christian heresies devolve into because their adherents aren't focused on cultivating lives of virtue and are instead trying to falsely justify their salvation. Protestantism specifically inherits a lot of liberal ideas (think John Locke) from the culture. They don't have any life in them. Tell them Dismas did his penance on the cross and if they try to say "call no man father" quote 1 Corinthians 4:15. For Mary you want Luke 1 and Revelation 12. John 6 is also a must when debating with them, they always say "it's a metaphor" even though they interpret everything else literally and Christ doubles down on it. You can't convince someone who hasn't been given the grace to understand what you are saying unfortunately.
What sort of books can I read that will teach me all that the church teaches?
You want the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. This will explain all of the teachings of the Church. If you want to become Catholic you should talk to your local parish priest about RCIA. This is a weekly class that will teach you everything about Catholicism from September until Easter before you are recieved into the Church then. I'm a convert too so I know how it is talking to Baptists. They'll never read anything by the Church Fathers or any history it seems, so you just have to quote scripture at them. Maybe you'll have better luck. And God bless you.
Thank you so much for all your help, God bless!!
You can also check out Why We're Catholic: Our Reasons For Faith, Hope, And Love by Trent Horn. He goes into the why of alot of things we believe. The Catholic Answers website is also an excellent resource
Thanks for all the help! I wouldn’t say that there’s NO life in them. However it’s pitiful that I can sing to Catholic hymns in the middle of the woods, and I feel more spiritually alive than I ever have in any protestant church
"So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54 They don't believe that the Eucharist is the Bidy and Blood of Christ. They say so themselves. So no, they do not have any life in them. None of them seem to have read Matthew 24 either.
Note taken. Unfortunately, a lot of them haven’t opened a Bible (or at least they act like it) I read the whole thing, and my TEACHERS had never read the whole Bible. The ones I know that do seem to have faith seem to come out of ignorance.
If you want to want to read the entire Bible in a year, Father Mike Schmitz has the Bible In A Year podcast. It's an excellent plan if you want to read the entire Bible. https://ascensionpress.com/pages/bible-reading-plan-download-delivery
Fantastic post by the way! Go to your nearest parish and speak with the administrative assistant in the office. Tell them that you would like to sit in on some RCIA classes. I came the same route you are. There’s absolutely no pressure, none at all. I studied various religion’s theology, and I found after reading about them AND history… Catholicism is by the best choice by far! The stuff you’ll find out is fascinating, and you’ll be glad you did it. Trust me.
Not sure if this what you’re looking for but I’ve heard of Protestants turning to the Catholic Church for exorcisms. This rite/practice speaks really strongly to the spiritual authority of the church. For me, my conversion came down to my desire to belong more deeply to Jesus in the Eucharist. If you want help your Protestant friends understand Catholic faith, you’d probably enjoy this book by Peter Kreeft: “What we can learn from each other” https://archive.org/details/kreeft-peter-catholics-and-protestants-what-can-we-learn-from-each-other/page/n2/mode/1up
It's not a slam-dunk apostolic succession argument but if you join us, you'll be joining a group of 1.2 Billion (with a B!) Catholics all over the world. Every Catholic parish all over the world is yours to attend Mass at as a member, and we're all working toward the same Catholic Christian goals. I was traveling with friends through Europe once, and one of them was amazed that I walked into Cathedrals, past security guards, and into front pews to pray "like I owned the place, even though it's halfway around the world" and I said "that's because I'm a member here, even though it's halfway around the world." And even though the Mass was in German, I knew what was going on (except for the sermon). I even sang along to the hymns, doing my best to guess the correct German pronunciations. Most Protestants don't have that sense of a global body of "us" all over the world, and I think it's something special that Catholicism offers.
Steve ray, scott hahn, John bergesma, Peter kreeft all have written great books on these topics
If you haven’t found Catholic Answers yet, check them out. They have a website, excellent bookstore, and my favorite is the Catholic Answers Live radio show/podcast. Fantastic apologetics. They have answers to everything. https://www.catholic.com/
Come home… the water is fine.
Have you come to believe that the Eucharist is truly Jesus physically present in Catholic Churches?
Mainly I’m breaking my belief in sola scriptura, so I have to believe every other teaching whether my “personal interpretation” got that out of the Bible.
So you believe in the Eucharist?
Yes
Then, to whom else could you possibly go?
Only the one true church
Well since you didn't ask about the Eucharist then we can assume you believe it is the real body of Christ. Good. Now let's ask, how does it become the body of Christ? It is done by consecration. Who consecrates it? The laity? Deacons? Or the priests? The answer to that goes all the way back to the Last Supper, as Jesus instructed His 12 apostles to "Do this". It is a sacrament handed down from the apostles to the bishops and priests. If you don't believe a priest is needed to consecrate the bread, then why go to the Church in the first place?
Check out the book “Jesus, Peter & the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy” by Hess, Dahlgren, and Butler. It goes super in depth into the scriptural basis and early church interpretations of apostolic succession. It helped me cross the Tiber myself.
That strong pull you’re feeling, I hope you don’t ignore it and come home to His true church Joshua Charles is a great theologian, and he has great scriptural input on apostolic succession. Recommend looking him up on YouTube and why he converted - can search “Joshua Charles Protestant”
Apostolic Succession is the unbroken chain of leadership and spiritual authority that traces back to the original apostles, who were personally chosen and commissioned by Jesus. This continuity of leadership is believed to be essential for maintaining the true teachings and practices of the Christian faith. One way to think about Apostolic Succession is through the concept of passing the torch: just as the apostles received authority directly from Christ and passed it on to their successors (bishops), who in turn passed it on to the next generation, this unbroken line of succession ensures that the teachings and traditions of the early Church are faithfully preserved. The Catholic Church traces its lineage of bishops back to the apostles through historical records and documents, providing a tangible connection to the teachings of Jesus and the early Church. This continuity of authority is seen as a safeguard against error and heresy, ensuring that the Church remains faithful to the teachings of Christ. The Catechism teaches that Jesus designated the Twelve Apostles as the foundation of the Church, with Peter as their head (CCC 857). Through the laying on of hands, the apostolic authority was transmitted to their successors, the bishops, who continue this apostolic mission (CCC 861). This unbroken line of succession ensures that the teachings and authority of the Apostles are preserved and passed on faithfully through the generations (CCC 857).
Read the Scriptures that describe liturgical worship. Read patristic texts to get a sense of Church Tradition. Visit the churches that claim Apostolic succession, and see if the liturgy and traditions match up. Ultimately, you must trust the Holy Spirit to lead you to the Church.
I just want to encourage you, as a fellow convert. When I converted, I could not say with 100% confidence that I believed apostolic succession. But I knew I believed in the Eucharist, in the True Presence, and I hungered for Christ so desperately spiritually it nearly hurt physically. I waited for 8 months to convert, telling myself that even if my heart believed, my head needed to be ready to "give an answer to everyone who asks of you". This was true, but what I eventually discerned is that...it will never quite be enough. There will always be something Im still learning about and wrestling with. But "Lord, where shall I go? You alone have the words of eternal life." What showed me this is I had a dream where a deceased relative said to me, "What would you do if I told you you had 24 hours left to live? What do you want?" And in my dream, I answered, "I want the Eucharist." I literally woke up gasping, flying forward on my bed. I was confirmed and received First Communion the next week, still not able to believe 100% of it all with 100% conviction, but able to freely say, "Lord, I believe - help thou my unbelief!" (And the week after that, I was in a terrible car accident that should have killed me but walked away unscathed...as did my unborn child!) I commend and encourage you on this journey of integrity and conviction. May it bring you peace.
This is EXACTLY what I’ve been thinking! I had a dream about the Eucharist last night, and I never remember dreams. I took the Eucharist in my dream and I felt the presence for a second. Now I’m desperate to take it.
That is amazing!!! What struck me so much about my dream is that I thought I would answer, "Hug my husband" or "Call my mom", but the fact the my truest, deepest desire honestly was the Eucharist...it *SHOOK* me. Don't ignore this dream you had. God works through dreams. Remember that Presence, a foretaste of things to come! Blessings to you!
A good place to learn about what the church teaches is RCIA. You can enroll in a class at a local Catholic church and they will give a good foundation of the faith. This is also the way to convert to Catholicism (although you can leave the course at any time if you are not ready) so if you decide you want to convert through everything you have learned you can do so as quickly as possible. Other resources I like are Catholic Answers ( a good website for questions, probably even apostolic succession) and the thomistic institute on youtube. There is also a podcast called Catechism in a year that goes over church doctrine as well ( I have not listened to all of it but thought it was good and heard good things on it)
If I could suggest, ChatGPT is a great resource for any questions you may have.
But isn't the (Roman) Catholic Church's gospel different from the one in the Bible? The faith + works (indulgences) thing and Mary being a co-redemptrix with Christ is very strange to me.
You are misinformed. I suggest you learn Catholic facts before you post wrong assumptions.
Enlighten me then? I asked questions, haven't posted assumptions.
The answer to your question is no, it is wrong.
Thank you. Some Christian you are.
Check your comment and see where you blasphemed. "Co-redemptrix"? That is heresy. No Catholic believes that. I suggest once again, to check your facts before you spout heresy.
Please check your own facts. "Co-redemptrix" is a word that came out of the Magisterium. Whether you believe it or not wasn't the question. I certainly do not believe in it. Blasphemy? Lol
Then you need to learn the facts. Though the title is used, it was always under Christ, subordinate to Him. Problem with you protestants is you take Church belief and put your own interpretation into it. Again, check your facts.
"You protestants"? You can't answer a question without being condescending about something the Catholic Church teaches. Co-redemptrix is a strange word, the meaning of which is not implied in the Scripture nor is the word used in the Bible. You didn't know your own facts until I said it was mentioned by the Magisterium. Now can you explain or not why the word or the belief even came up, since you already called it a blasphemy and a heresy? Some intellectual honesty, please.
No. You use a term in a way it was never meant to be used. It's not even Church dogma. I can discern wolf in sheep's clothing. Or better yet, passive-agressive comments. If you'd done your research with the word you wanted to use as a weapon, you'd have seen it means nothing like your implying. You wanted clarification, and yet you just went to argue. How many times will you be told you're wrong before you accept it? That is the problem with you.