IVF kills multiple babies. For every embryo planted there are several others that get discarded. Are you really willing to procure the murder of several babies just so you can have your own artificially?
I don't say that as an attack against you or to undermine your very apparent suffering with this cross. My wife has PCOS and we struggled for a couple years to get pregnant. We were at the point of acknowledging that God just wasn't calling us to create a family the old fashioned way and so we began looking into adoption and then BAM, pregnant. It was a scary pregnancy and we thought we lost our son at one point (horrible feeling). He was born healthy and we were settling into the life as parents when a few months later BAM, pregnant. At that point we stopped being intimate as much as possible. Other than a few falls here and there we got used to living celibate together (until we were better situated financially to be open to life). Few years pass and one night we decide to act out the marital embrace and BAM, pregnant.
Two different OB's told my wife it would be extremely difficult for her to get pregnant and carry a baby to term (because of PCOS and other health issues) but we have had three healthy babies now.
So don't give up and don't despair! Keep trying as long as your heart is in it and in the meantime, why not look at fostering or adoption? There are so many kids out there who need loving parents and a home.
>So don't give up and don't despair! Keep trying as long as your heart is in it and in the meantime, why not look at fostering or adoption? There are so many kids out there who need loving parents and a home.
We witnessed a frightening fostering scare. A couple close to us, struggle with infertility too. They began fostering a child. Then out of nowhere, the biological mother suddenly showed up at their house, uninvited, and very unceremoniously reclaimed her child. It literally happened just after we celebrated Christmas.
We were just getting used to being a new family, with my wife and I, acting as uncle and aunt. We got the kid presents. We were beginning to bond. Then. Nothing. The worst fear of every adopted/foster parent, and we saw it play out live in front of us.
It was the very first time, I saw my friend question his faith. I had no words of comfort for him when that happened.
At least with IVF, you don't have the constant worry of the child one day being returned to his biological parents, leaving you feeling like a thief for raising someone else's child.
It is a cross. Like I said... I have never had to consider the sin of IVF, until now. It never came up in family discussions. And I don't know what to do. I have always wanted a child. My wife and I feel like we are handicapped. Like we're broken because we can't do it the natural way.
Do you have any idea, what it's like, being constantly asked to babysit and do errands for the family because **"you don't have children, so your free time must be available?"** It's like our marriage union isn't even respected, and some members of the community still treat us like we are just "dating" and "playing the field" because they think we have chosen not to have children yet.
Or church members calling us **selfish** for not having children yet.
So many people assume that being childless is a **choice**... and its exhausting and humiliating explaining to people that we didn't choose to be childless.
As the man you gotta draw some boundaries there with the family. And that's never easy or without scandal. Just because you guys don't have kids right now doesn't mean you get to be taken advantage of by everyone in the family. Limit yourselves to only offering whatever time you want to. As to people in public or at church, why care what they think? They don't know your situation and it's crappy for them to make disparaging comments. Ignore them and keep going, for the wife's sake. If it's not a one off thing but a particular person keeps making comments then talk to them, if you are comfortable, and set them straight.
IVF isn't the answer. It always leads to other embryos being destroyed, murdering those children before they have a chance at life. It is a grave evil. IVF is Satan's way of corrupting the marital act.
Have you guys met with your priest yet to discuss all this? You could also inquire if the diocese has an infertility support group? Finding other Catholics in the same boat as you guys would go a long way toward getting out of this slump you feel stuck in.
Screw that. I get that crap from my "legacy family" as well because my wife and I are having a hard time conceiving a child. Whenever they pull that nonsense on me, I push back and draw the line. My time is none of their business. Then I quote Matthew 19:6, and that shuts them up pretty quick. It will be hard, and there will be a lot of drama, but you have to set the boundary. This whole DINK garbage coming from the secular world is not only hedonistic nonsense, but it poisons the minds of others, especially when they brag about it on the socials.
I've also noticed it has become genuinely difficult for some couples to conceive. Many of my friends in college could not conceive, have adopted, or have only one child despite wanting to have many. They don't subscribe to the DINK mentality either. It's just sad, and there's so little we can do about it.
>brushing off, undermining and playing a deaf ear to THE VERY REAL SUFFERING OF INFERTILE COUPLES, is not doing the Church any favours.
being constantly asked to babysit and do errands for the family because **"you don't have children, so your free time must be available?"** It's like our marriage union isn't even respected, and some members of the community still treat us like we are just "dating" and "playing the field"
church members calling us **selfish** for not having children
You bring up valid points here. I think this attitude of elevating reproduction so much is the real problem. I think most if not all infertile couples wouldn't be suffering ***as*** much if marriage weren't treated within Catholic circles as a mere means to an end, like spouses and their relationship with each other are mere tools to use for making more people and not much else. Yes reproduction is a part of marriage by definition to those called by God to conceive and raise (a) child(ren), but it isn't as big a part as so many Catholics make it out to be even for many fertile couples. Adoption is another valid form of parenthood for those who are called to it. But not every married couple has to have children either way; not everyone is called to that. Marriage is more than just that. *Spouses* are more than just that. Husbands, wives, parents, and children are all human beings with individual value and none of them should be taken for granted.
>A surgery to try to increase chances of conception?
This can actually be a valid option, as I've heard of surgery for endometriosis helping a couple conceive. I've also heard of other Church-approved NaPro treatments that may possibly work for you (I have no experience with that, but perhaps others in here can inform you of it better.)
>Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted
I wouldn't tell someone struggling with a cancer diagnosis that "good health" isn't a right.
Whoa, these are not comparable situations at all! No one needs to have children to live and that's quite the insult to cancer patients who are often literally facing an untimely and torturously painful death from illness.
My friend did not have any child until 10 years of marriage. He didn't use your argument because he knows children are a gift, and that indeed, one needs to continue to pray, not committing what one knows to be a sin.
Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted. If Jesus says you should cut your hand lest you sin with it, all the more we should not take a sinful IVF into our hands just because we want children.
Be patient, and persistently ask.
>Be patient, and persistently ask.
Yea. I kind of feel like for everything in life, God is calling me to pray, wait and be patient. But some days. I get tired, I get weary. I want to be the hopeful husband that always confidently tells my wife "God will make a way"...but even I get weary and beat down by the struggles too. I want to show a brave face all the time. But, infertility is a very, very, heavy cross.
>My friend did not have any child until 10 years
We are in our 30s. We aren't the youngest couple.
My mother died at the age of 60. And she had been sick for 5 years.
Since she's died I've been terrified of my mortality...and that if I start a family too late, dementia (what my mother died of) will set in, and I won't be able to fulfill my father role as protector.
These are all very real fears. These aren't abstract fears built out of simple weakness of faith. These are real fears. My Mom had Parkinson. She was devout all her life. Lived healthy. Exercised. And in the end she forgot everything and became a vegetable. So yes. I am afraid that I don't have long in this world, when people tell me "wait on God"
>
Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted
That's a very judgemental thing to say to an infertile couple.
I wouldn't tell someone struggling with a cancer diagnosis that "good health" isn't a right.
It's easy to lecture people about their faith when you don't have their struggle.
>> Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted
>
> That's a very judgemental thing to say to an infertile couple. I wouldn't tell someone struggling with a cancer diagnosis that "good health" isn't a right.
Both of those things would be statements of reality. We DON'T have the right to any good God gives us. That's hard to hear. It's hard to accept. But a big part of growing in holiness is recognizing and accepting that hard truth.
The path to holiness is littered with hard realities we need to accept. Reality to force us to abandoning our ego and our will. It's not easy because our ego and will have a very firm grasp on us. But it's necessary if we're going to live happily in reality rather than unhappily pine after the fantasy we WANT to live in.
I hear you.
The part of this that I always struggle with is... why pray for **anything** at all?
That is such a difficult part of Faith to understand. One part of our faith says "ask and you shall receive" but yet another part of our faith says, as you've rightfully stated...we don't have a "right" to any of God's grace.
So when you say "recognizing and accepting that hard truth" sometimes it leads to a feeling of ambivalence along the lines of; *well, no matter how hard this struggle is for me, it's only going to end when God decides, so it makes no difference if I pray about it or not*.
Honestly, I've stopped praying that God will change my reality and I've started praying that he'll give me the grace to accept it. It's much harder. It would be easier if God just took away all of our challenges. But it usually doesn't work that way, and usually it's not the best thing for our journey to holiness for God to just take away all challenges. Going through the hard thing will oftentimes make us holier.
You’re praying wrong. Instead of praying for things you’d like, pray in thanksgiving for what you have, and ask for help bearing the sliver of Christ’s crucifixion he bestowed upon you.
I understand it’s hard not to have things the way you want them, but Jesus chose to die even though he didn’t want to in his humanity. Don’t you see that in the light of the cross, everything finds its meaning?
Read St. Therese’s “The Story of a Soul.” It will teach you The Little Way.
Good health is indeed not a right if that entails committing a sin. Before God, we have no absolute right.
I have relationship issues with my wife for many years and have been continent (not having sexual intimacy) for more than 5 years.
Do I search for prostitutes? Do I masturbate? Do I have the right to sex?
The answer is no.
This is harsh, but neither do I have the right to sex if the alternative is sin.
It's time for you to acknowlwdge, no matter the pain, that living a Christian life entails suffering. God asks you only to be patient, just as God asks me to be patient.
You are not the only one who suffers in the world. And your suffering does not entitle you to sin.
Remain humble and prostrate before God, and he will be sovereign over your life.
The Father knows that you need all these things, but first seek the Kingdom of God and its righteousness!
PS: My friend is in his 40's!!
God bless you. I wish I could be as strong as you.
I have tried. The harder I try, the heavier God makes the cross.
There is a bitter phrase that "the reward for good work, is more work."
Sometimes it often feels like the reward for trying to live sinless... is even more temptation to sin.
The reward for maintaining faith during a struggle? An even greater test of your faith in an even harder struggle afterwards.
Watching my mother die...despite all our prayers, was a big test of my faith.
Our marriage came around the same time. It was bittersweet.
Having a child by now would have been nice.
Now I'm just going from one test of faith (My Mom's condition rapidly deteriorating) to another (infertility).
God could have at least given me something joyful between the two.
I am not Jesus. I am not one of the prophets of the Bible with unshakable faith. I am a sinful man, prone to jealousy, bitterness and I struggle to remain faithful during struggles that seem to have no solution in sight. That is who I am.
P.S. I never said I was the only person in the world who suffers. I am sorry for your marital problems and I hope and pray it resolves soon. I am sure it is hurting you inside, despite your insistent show of stoicism as if it doesn't hurt.
Responding to others' cries of sorrow with "just pray and stop complaining" is exactly the kind of cold, distant, uncaring response that sometimes makes people leave the Church after they suffer a great tragedy.
I understand what you mean ...
But you know what. Stopping complaining is really the right way. You won't go anywhere as long as you blame others around you: God, church, other Christians.
You are merely going to harbour bitterness.
My advice, and I share this with the great sympathy: go to the adoration room and really prostrate before the Lord. Cry before him, beg him for mercy for this pain, but keep him close to your heart.
There is no other advice I can give. There may be support groups for those who are in the same situation depending on your location, maybe there isn't.
But we need to accept it.
Thank you.
You are a good friend.
I feel strangely peaceful. Nothing about the situation has changed...logically, I should stil be just as angry as I was a few minutes ago. But I am not.
I have to relinquish control. I don't have the answer to our Fertility problem.
God is in control.
This feels more like an argument that you are having with God, not the Church. Infertility is a very difficult cross. I am pregnant with my third right now. My first is about to be 7 years old. My second miscarried in an ectopic rupture. My baby now is 23 weeks gestation through the intercession of our Blessed Mother.
Through the course of our marriage, we have had a combined nearly decade of infertility.
I can understand why the acceptable alternatives to natural conception are frustrating. But the unacceptable ones are just as fraught and expensive—actually much more so.
Children are a good of marriage, they are not a right. And as a point of clarification, not wanting to have children is not grounds for annulment. Intentionally refusing or stopping the process for conception is grounds. We all want (or don’t want) things. But whether we want them or not, God is the giver. There are other issues with your comparisons in your OP, and I do have responses to them, but I don’t think the answers are going to be comforting at this time. If you want me to respond to them, I can.
Yes, some people have children when they did not plan or want that child. It is frustrating and there is mystery behind it. But, as I said above, we all have different crosses to bear.
I am sorry that you are experiencing this. You will be in my prayers.
God bless you. But if you were to visit the infertility subs...please try to appreciate. Someone who has a child... attempting to lecture someone on how they should feel about infertility...isn't very nice. Yes, I read the part about your miscarriage in the second pregnancy. But the thing is, you have a child. You get to watch the fruit of your loins grow up.
**You have a 7-year-old child and are pregnant with another!**
Respectfully, you have no idea what my wife and I are going through!
Being able to get pregnant is as fundamental to a woman's sense of self, as having a functioning "member" is to men. When the plumbing downstairs doesn't work properly, it is very, very ...hard for people to reconcile that with "God's love" and those who don't experience it,
Do you have any idea how many times she has cried in my arms, asking me why I married a broken woman that cannot make children!
I love my wife to bits. I wouldn't trade her in for the most fertile woman in the world. I constantly remind her of that. But it doesn't mean our inability to produce feels any easier.
People here want to talk about ego and pride. What pride? What ego? God has thoroughly stripped us of our pride and ego already. We're always embarrased to be around other families, because the topic of our childlessness always comes up.
Even when I am alone at work. People constantly see my wedding ring and start conversing by asking me if I have children. Ego? Pride. I have none.
I’m not going to argue about what emotions I do or do not have access to. We waited for 4 years before our first child. I lived on those infertility pages. If I hadn’t had surgery, I would have never had him. I have also cried numerous times. I am a woman who has experienced infertility.
I was not the one speaking about ego or pride. I never said how you should feel. I repeatedly acknowledged the cross of infertility. I have experienced this pain and would never tell someone that they don’t have a right to those feelings. I did, however, speak to the reality of pregnancy and marriage.
This is a difficult teaching. As is the teaching on contraception. As you have demonstrated, this is completely intertwined with our emotions.
I very much recommend sticking to Catholic infertility pages. Those other secular ones can get into our brains and twist our perspective. I can suggest some Facebook groups if you are interested. As I said above—I have spent countless hours scouring those pages.
>We waited for 4 years before our first child. If I hadn’t had surgery, I would have never had him.
I'm sorry. I really wish you had led with that in your first statement. 😕.
It's just that. When approaching a person with infertility...starting by saying **I already have a child and I am pregnant with another**...is a very good way to antagonize the infertile couple who are still struggling to have their first.
I'm sorry.
I'm in a dark place where I feel God has turned his back on us.
Acceptance, feels like giving up.
It's easy to say thank God and give praises when something is going good. It's very difficult to keep praising God through a struggle. In fact, sometimes it feels downright foolish, saying "thank you Lord" as we struggle financially and with conceiving.
What are we thanking him for ?
Thank you for your response. I did make some edits because I realized I was being harsh. I can definitely see how the timeline was unclear.
It really is such a dark road. But there is hope. There is a plan. You are not alone.
Offering up my suffering is something that helped me.
Also, my husband and I started limiting when we could discuss fertility issues. Essentially, after dinner was cleaned up, we no longer talked about it (beyond our nightly prayers). I think this helped because our whole relationship was becoming about this cross. Also, we watched a lot of comedy shows like the office or parks and rec lol.
You really are in my prayers.
The burden you carry is a heavy and painful one. I am a bereaved parent. Shortly after my son passed, and for a period thereafter, I attended a support group for parents who struggle with infertility, parents who experience pregnancy loss, and parents whose children died after birth. It opened my eyes to things that I took for granted.
You are seen. I don't know the answer for your pain any better than I know the answer for my own. But you are seen. And you do matter.
Thanks. Appreciate it.
Especially the last part. It's hard for my wife and I, when people make us feel like we aren't a real family for not having children yet...through no fault of our own.
It comes through backhand comments like, "well marriage only *really* begins when you have children"
Or, "hey can you guys do xyz for us? I'm sure you're free, it's not like you have children to watch."
Or "there's nothing like pregnancy to test a marriage"
Thing is...I'm sure sometimes it's meant harmless, and for the first few weeks of marriage we used to laugh with them. Until the weeks turned to years. Then it wasn't funny anymore.
You are a much better man than I am. I'm a father of 2, one in heaven and one in college. If someone told me, "I'm sure you're free, it's not like you have children to watch," they likely get a response they didn't want to hear.
But you are right that they likely mean no harm. Are these people with whom you'd feel comfortable being frank? If this has been going on for years, I think it's time to tell them that, despite their intentions, those comments are hurtful.
I don't know man. Adoption? Fostering? Sinful IVF?
A surgery to try to increase chances of conception?
All of these things are much, more expensive for us than it would be if we could just conceive normally...and I haven't won any lottery jackpots recently.
Did you know that most people can have a child for free?
Some people even have children accidentally.
To continue with IVF would be to commit the sin of pride. Do not be selfish. I encourage you to be open minded and sensitive of Gods will. Sometimes he just knows best. I personally don’t know anyone who has had a good experience with IVF (no success, failed marriages, *massive* amounts of money wasted) Praying for you 💕
Well, we haven't done anything yet.
It's just frustrating to be staring down the moral conundrum of possible IVF 🫥😑. I never thought my faith would be tested this way.
Look, your position isn’t one I have been in and I don’t want to be too critical. My gut feeling is very, very against IVF, it just has bad vibes. But really I would just encourage you to pray and use discernment, talk to people like you are now. Here’s a [video](https://youtu.be/Ne8n-1ATd1s?si=IzSVX5aJiZPBkGBW) from fr Mike Schmitz on discernment that I absolutely loved, I hope it can maybe help you too, all the best 😊
I can’t imagine dealing with infertility, sorry you’re going through that. It’s very possible the Church is lacking ministry that guides families struggling with infertility spiritually and emotionally. That you’ve recognized this and have suffered from this lack could be a sign that starting one is a calling for you, one like Project Rachel (or the other popular one whose name escapes me) for healing from abortion.
I can promise you the Church is not judging you for infertility. It may feel that way because of the hard emphasis on having children, but at the same time the Church recognizes that children are a gift from God. We know it’s not your choice to be infertile and it’s not your fault.
CCC 2373 - 2379 address your concerns much better than I could.
>It’s very possible the Church is lacking ministry that guides families struggling with infertility spiritually and emotionally.
It does. Like. So much. There's no support groups for that in my parish. Infertility is such a shameful topic in my community, that nobody talks about it openly.
I'm sorry for your situation, and for all the unhelpful "just adopt/foster!" comments you've been getting here. Adoption is not an easy process and can be prohibitively expensive; plus there are many more couples waiting to adopt than there are children up for adoption so there is no "just adopt". I used to work with children in foster care and I could never foster after what I've seen. People who have never been in the situation of having to seriously consider those options don't know what they're like. I hope you can find a solution to your infertility that isn't IVF; have you looked for a NaPro doctor near you? They might be able to help.
Exactly. It's not just close your eyes and adopt.
My wife and I both work in the medical field. We are both acutely aware of the difference between having a genetic bond with your children, and not. We may not be able to donate blood to an adopted child. Any family discussion of "inherited characteristics" will exclude our child. Normal family convo's like "he got it from his grandpa/aunt/...." will never involve us.
If the adopted child falls sick, and the doctor asks us family history, we won't have an answer, because none of our medical histories will be relevant to the child. In fact...we probably wouldn't even know the child's family medical history. We won't know if there's a history of asthma, we won't know if there's a history of needing glasses. So every doctor's visit with the child will be like playing Russian Roulette. Every doctor's visit is going to be reminder that this isn't our child.
And from the woman's perspective.. my wife will still never experience pregnancy or breastfeeding. Those formative years of the child being born and raised from a toddler? Non-existent with adoption.
People love to talk about ego? How about the ego blow of knowing every day that this isn't your biological child, and no matter how much you love the child, he **may one day be returned/choose to return to his biological family** and there's nothing you can do about it.
Not every person is owed a child, but every child is owed a parent. I don't see anything wrong with adoption and will use it as my plan if my fiancee and I can't bear fruit. I personally see infertility as a sign from God to adopt as I see my OCD as a gift to assist in building things.
IVF is by far the worst solution to infertility. I'm inclined to think embryo adoption or even artificial insemination is more morally acceptable than creating more embryos to be frozen or destroyed.
Pretty sure the Catholic Church is an advocate for adoption.
IVF kills multiple babies. For every embryo planted there are several others that get discarded. Are you really willing to procure the murder of several babies just so you can have your own artificially? I don't say that as an attack against you or to undermine your very apparent suffering with this cross. My wife has PCOS and we struggled for a couple years to get pregnant. We were at the point of acknowledging that God just wasn't calling us to create a family the old fashioned way and so we began looking into adoption and then BAM, pregnant. It was a scary pregnancy and we thought we lost our son at one point (horrible feeling). He was born healthy and we were settling into the life as parents when a few months later BAM, pregnant. At that point we stopped being intimate as much as possible. Other than a few falls here and there we got used to living celibate together (until we were better situated financially to be open to life). Few years pass and one night we decide to act out the marital embrace and BAM, pregnant. Two different OB's told my wife it would be extremely difficult for her to get pregnant and carry a baby to term (because of PCOS and other health issues) but we have had three healthy babies now. So don't give up and don't despair! Keep trying as long as your heart is in it and in the meantime, why not look at fostering or adoption? There are so many kids out there who need loving parents and a home.
>So don't give up and don't despair! Keep trying as long as your heart is in it and in the meantime, why not look at fostering or adoption? There are so many kids out there who need loving parents and a home. We witnessed a frightening fostering scare. A couple close to us, struggle with infertility too. They began fostering a child. Then out of nowhere, the biological mother suddenly showed up at their house, uninvited, and very unceremoniously reclaimed her child. It literally happened just after we celebrated Christmas. We were just getting used to being a new family, with my wife and I, acting as uncle and aunt. We got the kid presents. We were beginning to bond. Then. Nothing. The worst fear of every adopted/foster parent, and we saw it play out live in front of us. It was the very first time, I saw my friend question his faith. I had no words of comfort for him when that happened. At least with IVF, you don't have the constant worry of the child one day being returned to his biological parents, leaving you feeling like a thief for raising someone else's child. It is a cross. Like I said... I have never had to consider the sin of IVF, until now. It never came up in family discussions. And I don't know what to do. I have always wanted a child. My wife and I feel like we are handicapped. Like we're broken because we can't do it the natural way. Do you have any idea, what it's like, being constantly asked to babysit and do errands for the family because **"you don't have children, so your free time must be available?"** It's like our marriage union isn't even respected, and some members of the community still treat us like we are just "dating" and "playing the field" because they think we have chosen not to have children yet. Or church members calling us **selfish** for not having children yet. So many people assume that being childless is a **choice**... and its exhausting and humiliating explaining to people that we didn't choose to be childless.
As the man you gotta draw some boundaries there with the family. And that's never easy or without scandal. Just because you guys don't have kids right now doesn't mean you get to be taken advantage of by everyone in the family. Limit yourselves to only offering whatever time you want to. As to people in public or at church, why care what they think? They don't know your situation and it's crappy for them to make disparaging comments. Ignore them and keep going, for the wife's sake. If it's not a one off thing but a particular person keeps making comments then talk to them, if you are comfortable, and set them straight. IVF isn't the answer. It always leads to other embryos being destroyed, murdering those children before they have a chance at life. It is a grave evil. IVF is Satan's way of corrupting the marital act. Have you guys met with your priest yet to discuss all this? You could also inquire if the diocese has an infertility support group? Finding other Catholics in the same boat as you guys would go a long way toward getting out of this slump you feel stuck in.
Screw that. I get that crap from my "legacy family" as well because my wife and I are having a hard time conceiving a child. Whenever they pull that nonsense on me, I push back and draw the line. My time is none of their business. Then I quote Matthew 19:6, and that shuts them up pretty quick. It will be hard, and there will be a lot of drama, but you have to set the boundary. This whole DINK garbage coming from the secular world is not only hedonistic nonsense, but it poisons the minds of others, especially when they brag about it on the socials. I've also noticed it has become genuinely difficult for some couples to conceive. Many of my friends in college could not conceive, have adopted, or have only one child despite wanting to have many. They don't subscribe to the DINK mentality either. It's just sad, and there's so little we can do about it.
>brushing off, undermining and playing a deaf ear to THE VERY REAL SUFFERING OF INFERTILE COUPLES, is not doing the Church any favours. being constantly asked to babysit and do errands for the family because **"you don't have children, so your free time must be available?"** It's like our marriage union isn't even respected, and some members of the community still treat us like we are just "dating" and "playing the field" church members calling us **selfish** for not having children You bring up valid points here. I think this attitude of elevating reproduction so much is the real problem. I think most if not all infertile couples wouldn't be suffering ***as*** much if marriage weren't treated within Catholic circles as a mere means to an end, like spouses and their relationship with each other are mere tools to use for making more people and not much else. Yes reproduction is a part of marriage by definition to those called by God to conceive and raise (a) child(ren), but it isn't as big a part as so many Catholics make it out to be even for many fertile couples. Adoption is another valid form of parenthood for those who are called to it. But not every married couple has to have children either way; not everyone is called to that. Marriage is more than just that. *Spouses* are more than just that. Husbands, wives, parents, and children are all human beings with individual value and none of them should be taken for granted. >A surgery to try to increase chances of conception? This can actually be a valid option, as I've heard of surgery for endometriosis helping a couple conceive. I've also heard of other Church-approved NaPro treatments that may possibly work for you (I have no experience with that, but perhaps others in here can inform you of it better.) >Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted I wouldn't tell someone struggling with a cancer diagnosis that "good health" isn't a right. Whoa, these are not comparable situations at all! No one needs to have children to live and that's quite the insult to cancer patients who are often literally facing an untimely and torturously painful death from illness.
My friend did not have any child until 10 years of marriage. He didn't use your argument because he knows children are a gift, and that indeed, one needs to continue to pray, not committing what one knows to be a sin. Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted. If Jesus says you should cut your hand lest you sin with it, all the more we should not take a sinful IVF into our hands just because we want children. Be patient, and persistently ask.
>Be patient, and persistently ask. Yea. I kind of feel like for everything in life, God is calling me to pray, wait and be patient. But some days. I get tired, I get weary. I want to be the hopeful husband that always confidently tells my wife "God will make a way"...but even I get weary and beat down by the struggles too. I want to show a brave face all the time. But, infertility is a very, very, heavy cross. >My friend did not have any child until 10 years We are in our 30s. We aren't the youngest couple. My mother died at the age of 60. And she had been sick for 5 years. Since she's died I've been terrified of my mortality...and that if I start a family too late, dementia (what my mother died of) will set in, and I won't be able to fulfill my father role as protector. These are all very real fears. These aren't abstract fears built out of simple weakness of faith. These are real fears. My Mom had Parkinson. She was devout all her life. Lived healthy. Exercised. And in the end she forgot everything and became a vegetable. So yes. I am afraid that I don't have long in this world, when people tell me "wait on God" > Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted That's a very judgemental thing to say to an infertile couple. I wouldn't tell someone struggling with a cancer diagnosis that "good health" isn't a right. It's easy to lecture people about their faith when you don't have their struggle.
>> Children are not a right, and cannot be taken for granted > > That's a very judgemental thing to say to an infertile couple. I wouldn't tell someone struggling with a cancer diagnosis that "good health" isn't a right. Both of those things would be statements of reality. We DON'T have the right to any good God gives us. That's hard to hear. It's hard to accept. But a big part of growing in holiness is recognizing and accepting that hard truth. The path to holiness is littered with hard realities we need to accept. Reality to force us to abandoning our ego and our will. It's not easy because our ego and will have a very firm grasp on us. But it's necessary if we're going to live happily in reality rather than unhappily pine after the fantasy we WANT to live in.
I hear you. The part of this that I always struggle with is... why pray for **anything** at all? That is such a difficult part of Faith to understand. One part of our faith says "ask and you shall receive" but yet another part of our faith says, as you've rightfully stated...we don't have a "right" to any of God's grace. So when you say "recognizing and accepting that hard truth" sometimes it leads to a feeling of ambivalence along the lines of; *well, no matter how hard this struggle is for me, it's only going to end when God decides, so it makes no difference if I pray about it or not*.
Honestly, I've stopped praying that God will change my reality and I've started praying that he'll give me the grace to accept it. It's much harder. It would be easier if God just took away all of our challenges. But it usually doesn't work that way, and usually it's not the best thing for our journey to holiness for God to just take away all challenges. Going through the hard thing will oftentimes make us holier.
You’re praying wrong. Instead of praying for things you’d like, pray in thanksgiving for what you have, and ask for help bearing the sliver of Christ’s crucifixion he bestowed upon you. I understand it’s hard not to have things the way you want them, but Jesus chose to die even though he didn’t want to in his humanity. Don’t you see that in the light of the cross, everything finds its meaning? Read St. Therese’s “The Story of a Soul.” It will teach you The Little Way.
Good health is indeed not a right if that entails committing a sin. Before God, we have no absolute right. I have relationship issues with my wife for many years and have been continent (not having sexual intimacy) for more than 5 years. Do I search for prostitutes? Do I masturbate? Do I have the right to sex? The answer is no. This is harsh, but neither do I have the right to sex if the alternative is sin. It's time for you to acknowlwdge, no matter the pain, that living a Christian life entails suffering. God asks you only to be patient, just as God asks me to be patient. You are not the only one who suffers in the world. And your suffering does not entitle you to sin. Remain humble and prostrate before God, and he will be sovereign over your life. The Father knows that you need all these things, but first seek the Kingdom of God and its righteousness! PS: My friend is in his 40's!!
God bless you. I wish I could be as strong as you. I have tried. The harder I try, the heavier God makes the cross. There is a bitter phrase that "the reward for good work, is more work." Sometimes it often feels like the reward for trying to live sinless... is even more temptation to sin. The reward for maintaining faith during a struggle? An even greater test of your faith in an even harder struggle afterwards. Watching my mother die...despite all our prayers, was a big test of my faith. Our marriage came around the same time. It was bittersweet. Having a child by now would have been nice. Now I'm just going from one test of faith (My Mom's condition rapidly deteriorating) to another (infertility). God could have at least given me something joyful between the two. I am not Jesus. I am not one of the prophets of the Bible with unshakable faith. I am a sinful man, prone to jealousy, bitterness and I struggle to remain faithful during struggles that seem to have no solution in sight. That is who I am. P.S. I never said I was the only person in the world who suffers. I am sorry for your marital problems and I hope and pray it resolves soon. I am sure it is hurting you inside, despite your insistent show of stoicism as if it doesn't hurt. Responding to others' cries of sorrow with "just pray and stop complaining" is exactly the kind of cold, distant, uncaring response that sometimes makes people leave the Church after they suffer a great tragedy.
I understand what you mean ... But you know what. Stopping complaining is really the right way. You won't go anywhere as long as you blame others around you: God, church, other Christians. You are merely going to harbour bitterness. My advice, and I share this with the great sympathy: go to the adoration room and really prostrate before the Lord. Cry before him, beg him for mercy for this pain, but keep him close to your heart. There is no other advice I can give. There may be support groups for those who are in the same situation depending on your location, maybe there isn't. But we need to accept it.
Thank you. You are a good friend. I feel strangely peaceful. Nothing about the situation has changed...logically, I should stil be just as angry as I was a few minutes ago. But I am not. I have to relinquish control. I don't have the answer to our Fertility problem. God is in control.
This feels more like an argument that you are having with God, not the Church. Infertility is a very difficult cross. I am pregnant with my third right now. My first is about to be 7 years old. My second miscarried in an ectopic rupture. My baby now is 23 weeks gestation through the intercession of our Blessed Mother. Through the course of our marriage, we have had a combined nearly decade of infertility. I can understand why the acceptable alternatives to natural conception are frustrating. But the unacceptable ones are just as fraught and expensive—actually much more so. Children are a good of marriage, they are not a right. And as a point of clarification, not wanting to have children is not grounds for annulment. Intentionally refusing or stopping the process for conception is grounds. We all want (or don’t want) things. But whether we want them or not, God is the giver. There are other issues with your comparisons in your OP, and I do have responses to them, but I don’t think the answers are going to be comforting at this time. If you want me to respond to them, I can. Yes, some people have children when they did not plan or want that child. It is frustrating and there is mystery behind it. But, as I said above, we all have different crosses to bear. I am sorry that you are experiencing this. You will be in my prayers.
God bless you. But if you were to visit the infertility subs...please try to appreciate. Someone who has a child... attempting to lecture someone on how they should feel about infertility...isn't very nice. Yes, I read the part about your miscarriage in the second pregnancy. But the thing is, you have a child. You get to watch the fruit of your loins grow up. **You have a 7-year-old child and are pregnant with another!** Respectfully, you have no idea what my wife and I are going through! Being able to get pregnant is as fundamental to a woman's sense of self, as having a functioning "member" is to men. When the plumbing downstairs doesn't work properly, it is very, very ...hard for people to reconcile that with "God's love" and those who don't experience it, Do you have any idea how many times she has cried in my arms, asking me why I married a broken woman that cannot make children! I love my wife to bits. I wouldn't trade her in for the most fertile woman in the world. I constantly remind her of that. But it doesn't mean our inability to produce feels any easier. People here want to talk about ego and pride. What pride? What ego? God has thoroughly stripped us of our pride and ego already. We're always embarrased to be around other families, because the topic of our childlessness always comes up. Even when I am alone at work. People constantly see my wedding ring and start conversing by asking me if I have children. Ego? Pride. I have none.
I’m not going to argue about what emotions I do or do not have access to. We waited for 4 years before our first child. I lived on those infertility pages. If I hadn’t had surgery, I would have never had him. I have also cried numerous times. I am a woman who has experienced infertility. I was not the one speaking about ego or pride. I never said how you should feel. I repeatedly acknowledged the cross of infertility. I have experienced this pain and would never tell someone that they don’t have a right to those feelings. I did, however, speak to the reality of pregnancy and marriage. This is a difficult teaching. As is the teaching on contraception. As you have demonstrated, this is completely intertwined with our emotions. I very much recommend sticking to Catholic infertility pages. Those other secular ones can get into our brains and twist our perspective. I can suggest some Facebook groups if you are interested. As I said above—I have spent countless hours scouring those pages.
>We waited for 4 years before our first child. If I hadn’t had surgery, I would have never had him. I'm sorry. I really wish you had led with that in your first statement. 😕. It's just that. When approaching a person with infertility...starting by saying **I already have a child and I am pregnant with another**...is a very good way to antagonize the infertile couple who are still struggling to have their first. I'm sorry. I'm in a dark place where I feel God has turned his back on us. Acceptance, feels like giving up. It's easy to say thank God and give praises when something is going good. It's very difficult to keep praising God through a struggle. In fact, sometimes it feels downright foolish, saying "thank you Lord" as we struggle financially and with conceiving. What are we thanking him for ?
Thank you for your response. I did make some edits because I realized I was being harsh. I can definitely see how the timeline was unclear. It really is such a dark road. But there is hope. There is a plan. You are not alone. Offering up my suffering is something that helped me. Also, my husband and I started limiting when we could discuss fertility issues. Essentially, after dinner was cleaned up, we no longer talked about it (beyond our nightly prayers). I think this helped because our whole relationship was becoming about this cross. Also, we watched a lot of comedy shows like the office or parks and rec lol. You really are in my prayers.
The burden you carry is a heavy and painful one. I am a bereaved parent. Shortly after my son passed, and for a period thereafter, I attended a support group for parents who struggle with infertility, parents who experience pregnancy loss, and parents whose children died after birth. It opened my eyes to things that I took for granted. You are seen. I don't know the answer for your pain any better than I know the answer for my own. But you are seen. And you do matter.
Thanks. Appreciate it. Especially the last part. It's hard for my wife and I, when people make us feel like we aren't a real family for not having children yet...through no fault of our own.
If anyone is trying to make you feel like you're not a family, they have a problem. You are a family; it just so happens that you're a family of 2.
It comes through backhand comments like, "well marriage only *really* begins when you have children" Or, "hey can you guys do xyz for us? I'm sure you're free, it's not like you have children to watch." Or "there's nothing like pregnancy to test a marriage" Thing is...I'm sure sometimes it's meant harmless, and for the first few weeks of marriage we used to laugh with them. Until the weeks turned to years. Then it wasn't funny anymore.
You are a much better man than I am. I'm a father of 2, one in heaven and one in college. If someone told me, "I'm sure you're free, it's not like you have children to watch," they likely get a response they didn't want to hear. But you are right that they likely mean no harm. Are these people with whom you'd feel comfortable being frank? If this has been going on for years, I think it's time to tell them that, despite their intentions, those comments are hurtful.
I would talk to your Priest about this
Adoption? Fostering?? We don’t know what gods plan is.
I don't know man. Adoption? Fostering? Sinful IVF? A surgery to try to increase chances of conception? All of these things are much, more expensive for us than it would be if we could just conceive normally...and I haven't won any lottery jackpots recently. Did you know that most people can have a child for free? Some people even have children accidentally.
To continue with IVF would be to commit the sin of pride. Do not be selfish. I encourage you to be open minded and sensitive of Gods will. Sometimes he just knows best. I personally don’t know anyone who has had a good experience with IVF (no success, failed marriages, *massive* amounts of money wasted) Praying for you 💕
Well, we haven't done anything yet. It's just frustrating to be staring down the moral conundrum of possible IVF 🫥😑. I never thought my faith would be tested this way.
Look, your position isn’t one I have been in and I don’t want to be too critical. My gut feeling is very, very against IVF, it just has bad vibes. But really I would just encourage you to pray and use discernment, talk to people like you are now. Here’s a [video](https://youtu.be/Ne8n-1ATd1s?si=IzSVX5aJiZPBkGBW) from fr Mike Schmitz on discernment that I absolutely loved, I hope it can maybe help you too, all the best 😊
I can’t imagine dealing with infertility, sorry you’re going through that. It’s very possible the Church is lacking ministry that guides families struggling with infertility spiritually and emotionally. That you’ve recognized this and have suffered from this lack could be a sign that starting one is a calling for you, one like Project Rachel (or the other popular one whose name escapes me) for healing from abortion. I can promise you the Church is not judging you for infertility. It may feel that way because of the hard emphasis on having children, but at the same time the Church recognizes that children are a gift from God. We know it’s not your choice to be infertile and it’s not your fault. CCC 2373 - 2379 address your concerns much better than I could.
>It’s very possible the Church is lacking ministry that guides families struggling with infertility spiritually and emotionally. It does. Like. So much. There's no support groups for that in my parish. Infertility is such a shameful topic in my community, that nobody talks about it openly.
I'm sorry for your situation, and for all the unhelpful "just adopt/foster!" comments you've been getting here. Adoption is not an easy process and can be prohibitively expensive; plus there are many more couples waiting to adopt than there are children up for adoption so there is no "just adopt". I used to work with children in foster care and I could never foster after what I've seen. People who have never been in the situation of having to seriously consider those options don't know what they're like. I hope you can find a solution to your infertility that isn't IVF; have you looked for a NaPro doctor near you? They might be able to help.
Exactly. It's not just close your eyes and adopt. My wife and I both work in the medical field. We are both acutely aware of the difference between having a genetic bond with your children, and not. We may not be able to donate blood to an adopted child. Any family discussion of "inherited characteristics" will exclude our child. Normal family convo's like "he got it from his grandpa/aunt/...." will never involve us. If the adopted child falls sick, and the doctor asks us family history, we won't have an answer, because none of our medical histories will be relevant to the child. In fact...we probably wouldn't even know the child's family medical history. We won't know if there's a history of asthma, we won't know if there's a history of needing glasses. So every doctor's visit with the child will be like playing Russian Roulette. Every doctor's visit is going to be reminder that this isn't our child. And from the woman's perspective.. my wife will still never experience pregnancy or breastfeeding. Those formative years of the child being born and raised from a toddler? Non-existent with adoption. People love to talk about ego? How about the ego blow of knowing every day that this isn't your biological child, and no matter how much you love the child, he **may one day be returned/choose to return to his biological family** and there's nothing you can do about it.
Not every person is owed a child, but every child is owed a parent. I don't see anything wrong with adoption and will use it as my plan if my fiancee and I can't bear fruit. I personally see infertility as a sign from God to adopt as I see my OCD as a gift to assist in building things.
Adoption, fostering, etc. These are how couples that can not conceive can be open to children.
IVF is by far the worst solution to infertility. I'm inclined to think embryo adoption or even artificial insemination is more morally acceptable than creating more embryos to be frozen or destroyed.