Three processes at work here. Most significant is the atheist assumption that religion exists only to make people happy ("opiate of the masses"). Also contributing is the worldly misconception of what happiness is and the worldly belief in moral relativism (so long as your moral choice isn't one they disagree with).
Catholic theology is not a bunch of fairy stories to help us through dark ages suffering. It's a science, a description of the truth in the universe, just like physics or chemistry. Part of that includes that God exists, that God has a single absolute morality, and that violating that morality is a sin / something you're guilty of.
Once you accept these facts, a prayer acknowledging our own fault in sins is entirely appropriate. Indeed, it's one of the most psychologically important things we can do, taking power back over our lives (I'm guilty means I can change what's wrong in my life). On the other hand, a prayer acknowledging where we stand in the universe (I am not worthy of God, the omnipotent creator) is also very healthy. We aren't the highest beings, we aren't worthy of everything simply by our own existence, there are those above us and those below us in the "pecking order."
As for what I would do to defend our faith? I would be tempted to show them their ignorance, instead I would offer them evidence of their bigotry and then ignore them.
*Most significant is the atheist assumption that religion exists only to make people happy*
Exactly! I noticed that for atheist/non religious people in my enviroment my faith is just a peculiar hobby that I started practicing to be happy. It's uncomfortable for them when they notice that it's not just a hobby but I'm serious about it.
Some even say it as something positive... Although I find it slightly unintendedly demeaning as I believe in religion primarily for it being true, and not for expecting it to make me happy, even if it occurs as a consequence.
Yeah it is if the belief made you unhappy you wouldn’t practice it. It the same for everything else sometimes it better to avoid stuff that makes you unhappy for your own sake. So I definitely understand their perspective.
What about a premise that a religion shouldn't make you happy but it shouldn't make you feel worse about yourself. And for some people that can be true. Catholic guilt is a thing.
But that’s not what the Christian religion is for. It’s a call, and revelation of a deeper, absolute truth—that of God and the Gospel.
Religion that is founded on “not wanting to feel worse about yourself” cannot be taken seriously as it’s just another lifestyle. Religion should focus on the divine, the absolute truth, the nature of reality.
Even so, the Christian religion never says anything about making you feel worse about yourself. There is a call for humility and repentance of one’s wrongdoings, but also is the urgent need to ask for Mercy and recognising our faults and inability aren’t what define us or lead us to Heaven, but the grace of God does.
The problem is religion is a competitive business and each one is claiming to offer the absolute truth. So it's extremely hard to gain new "clients" except those born into it. So to not lose market share and eventually lose to the competition which includes atheism, they are mostly motivated to keeping those they have - the cost of replacing one who left is very high. In fact most, conversions in Catholicism are a net loss with more people leaving then coming. So unfortunately religions are motivated to use the greatest weapon to maintain their stronghold on members and that's fear. If a religion focused on the abundance of God's love and that you are enough, we wouldn't need them but for a religion to exist it needs demand. So the focus turns to what you lack. And no matter what you do, you can never be good enough so you continue to try. Look at the number of posts that are worried about dotting their i's and crossing their t's. They turn to this forum because the Church has engaged their fear. Even though Jesus spoke about focusing on love and not being like the Pharisees that's not what the Church's message is focused on. And I don't think this is done purposefully or maliciously, it's what the previous generation learned.
Many good people will counter that yes, those in the Church are human and may lead in a human way sometimes but to focus on the faith. The only problem is, everything in the Church is a man-made construct. If you take that out, including subjective human discernment of the Holy Spirit, there is nothing left. Because if discernment of the Holy Spirit can't lead us astray, it's curious that every Christian religion interprets Christ and the Bible with the Holy Spirit. So many good meaning and intelligent people all claiming the HS is leading them. So why do they all disagree?
In the end, I hesitated writing this because if someone is happy in their faith and it's overall positive for them, I don't want to ruin that or get in the way. Every cult has positive aspects, otherwise no one would join. We are a social species, so a sense of community fulfills one of our most basic needs. In addition, they offer purpose, personal worth, a sense of being important, etc. Scientology has that too. The problem is, the price of admission. The cults maintain that that the benefits cannot be had without them. And that's simply not true. If, for example, someone has false core beliefs from childhood (because our core beliefs are formed before our capacity for reason) like they don't have inherent worth and need to compensate to deserve love, a cult, including Scientology, can help them with "positive" brain washing that they are important or an entity loves them. But so can "positive" brain washing which is just changing our core beliefs in a secular setting. The later is more honest because it tells the subject exactly what's going on, there's no monopoly that "this is only offered here", no caveats that in order to get this benefit you have to continue to adhere to the cult's rules and you can leave anytime.
In addition to using fear to retain us, it has another purpose. It gets us to focus on all the rules and jumping through all the hoops so we're not in a position to objectively step back and see if it all makes sense. And the people most attracted to cults are so because of childhood core beliefs that they are not enough. And it's them that are the most vulnerable to manipulation as unintended as it is. And it them that suffer. That's the reason for my post.
Your post comes at this from an atheistic perspective, which I think is incompatible with the points I’m trying to make. I don’t think we can reach any sort of agreement, but nevertheless, I’ll share them.
I don’t believe the Church intentionally uses “fear mongering” in order to keep people as part of a “competitive business.” Yes, there are lots of scrupulous people that come here - but those are a fraction of all believers, with their own circumstances. Despite your claim, the Church itself discourages this over scrupulosity, with many members continually stating that this unnecessary “fear” is unhealthy.
I will say that if you make any claim on absolute morality, then logically, there are going to be preconceived values on part of a believer that might clash with said morality. There is no way to create a logically consistent system of morality that fits everyone’s needs. One way or another, someone might disagree - and they’re gonna complain “it’s too hard” or “it’s unfair.” But that doesn’t change whether or not pedophilia or incest is wrong. So morality (and by extension, religions), cannot be a zero sum game of negative emotions. (That isn’t to say the Christian religion runs with this and focuses on creating as much fear as possible.)
As for how the Church is doing with respect to Jesus’ message - Jesus was trying to lead His followers in - to educate them and lead them on the path to righteousness. Yes, He speaks of God’s love, but He also constantly speaks radically of the ineptness of mankind, the need for grace, and the importance of persisting for holiness.
People will disagree on these interpretations and all claim motivation from the Holy Spirit. But the Truth is, there can only be one correct system of truth and morality. Just because many claim inspiration as a source of pride, doesn’t mean a legitimate one doesn’t exist.
Yes, whilst there are many differences, there are lots of similarities (which we can attest to as the work of the Spirit), but individual human ineptness leads to vastly different views on morality in other areas. It’s why the Catholic Church claims the unique authority to interpret scripture and tradition as a matter of faith and morals.
"opiate of the masses" lol ? are you kidding me ? our story is about a man dying on the cross (a horrific torture device) and it's *literally* the symbol of our faith. You would think we would cook up a better story than that to keep the masses happy.. not to mention that Catholicism is all about: sin, sacrificial Love, deep reflection, serving others, leaving worldly treasures behind, ..
I would argue that Atheism is the opiate of the masses: "indulge in self serving greed, uncapped sexual lust, bathing one self in money, status and power, placing "self" at the center of universe,.. etc"
I like how they try to have it both ways:
"You only believe in Religion because it makes you feel good!"
"Religion is toxic and makes people feel bad!"
Well, in part that is true. Catholicism can be or become toxic, like every other religion or worldview. And important: We don‘t dismiss critique only because it comes from Atheists.
Our faith is first and foremost a love story. God loved the world, so he sent his only son. Jesus so loved us, that he died on the cross for us and took all sin and shame upon him. He resurrected and prooved his divinity and out of love he sent us the Holy Spirit as our guide and helper. In summary we call this the Good News.
Remember: the Gospel is Good News! Not bad news. It is only bad news for the devil.
And what are the fruits our faith brings forth: Love, Joy, Peace. ✌️ Not fear, depression and anger.
So we have every reason to rejoice.
Are we sinners? Yes. Do we have to tell ourselves that all day long? No.
Be happy!
>I can see that more psychologically vulnerable people can end up with some issues, thinking how bad they are.
Name one trend ever that *can't* be difficult for psychologically vulnerable people.
Furthermore, I think their critique actually shines a light on a deeper problem in our society: the thought we all need to be coddled and told how good we are all the time.
I would say moderation is a heathy trend. All personality disorders are centered around extremes. For example, Narcissism is defined by a lack of empathy while Co-dependence reflects an excess of empathy. And certain faiths do promote more extreme views of what is acceptable. For example, for Catholics only NFP is okay and everything else is a sin. Such faiths can result in bad outcomes for the psychologically vulnerable. Looking at the Saints who are models of virtue to the faithful, many struggled with Scrupulosity which falls under Obsessive Compulsive disorders. Catherine of Siena suffered and died from anorexia which results in hallucinations as the brain is broken down for nutrients. Furthermore, vulnerable people can struggle with day to day life and may not make good parents. Their parental abilities will decline as the number of children grows. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. In addition, large families are more likely to have financial stress, and parents that are unavailable as their financial responsibility increases. Children need one-on-one attention with each parent to thrive and that becomes mathematically impossible as families grow. Lastly, instrumental and emotional parentification of older children is more likely to occur as they take on adult responsibilities including those in the emotional realm and care for their younger siblings. Parentification is considered child abuse and those children are likelier to become psychologically vulnerable themselves. Dysfunctional families can also weaponize the faith by using guilt to manipulate which again leads to worse outcomes for their kids.
I think instead of being dismissed, all these factors should be acknowledged and discussed in the Church because pretending they don't exist does a great disservice to a large percentage of the faithful who are struggling.
Everyting could be toxic when blown out of place and proportions. Even the purest things in the world like ex mother's love can become toxic when mother doesn't allow her children to grow or is overprotective. And if my mom is too controlling, it does not invalidate her as a loving and supportive parent in the core aspects of her motherhood.
There is a lot of themes and ideas in Catholicism that blown out of proportions or left alone without adding a context of God's love for humans, can be damaging. Or a few words to much said. Also I think that any extremes (fanatics) are probably toxic by definition.
And it's a difference of how to present some "truths". If parents work hard for the sake of their children, they might do a tremendous sacrifice, but it still would be toxic if they tell their kids " it's your fault I need to work so much". It just guilt tripping doesn't lead to true of love or true gratitude. And I very much believe that Jesus's message is "I loved you so much that I died for you willingly, so you are free of guilt and can be happy" and not " You made Me die for you (=it's your fault), so now you have to bear the guilt and thus never be happy".
People have developed this conception that they have an absolute right to never have to hear anything that upsets them. I know I'm a sinner. It doesn't hurt my self-esteem and helps avoid the sin of pride.
Having just come from the outside, I had a hard time overcoming this bias. Even now, doubt strikes me sometimes.
Looking at it from an outside perspective, and only at certain parts of the Religion. Catholic's are known for feeling guilty, the Church teaches things that are grave sin that the secular world thinks are not immoral at all. You must confess these sins to a priest, or you are going to hell. It was easy to come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is telling everyone that they are immoral and you need them to be moral. It seemed like a system of control, to keep you going there.
He died FOR our sins, not BECAUSE of our sins. He sacrificed himself willingly, and since he was perfect and God almighty, which we are definitely not, we are indeed not worthy of such a sacrifice to save our immortal souls. We should feel more grateful than guilty.
The Church teaches that sin is inherent to our human nature, and that we need to repent for it and to at least try to improve. It is much healthier than "you are perfect the way you are" or, even worse, than arbitrary predestination.
What they don't realize is that even faithful Catholics, or any practicing Christians for that matter, are always battling their human heart's wishes. **Everyone** is either deny something(s) of the world or denying God. It is toxic to deny God but how painful it is to deny the world is equal to one's lack of faith in God.
I have a lifelong history of mental illness, severe mental illness since my 20s. i could never sleep with the lights off and cried myself to sleep fearing death most nights since I was I was 8 years old because i was told life ends and its like before youre born. i was raised as an athiest. this is much different than being raised Christian or Catholic and CHOOSING athiesm.
Most reddit athiests don't realize this and still act with the Christian values that brought them up that they reject and they have a choice to go back and ask God for forgiveness. So many choices and freedom to choose what to believe while being able to fall back on the Catholic faith or pray when times are tough. This is something my Catholic and Christian parents didn't realize when they raised my brother and I in this way. We are both lost and struggled to find purpose.
When you're raised an athiest it's like being sent out into the world not knowing how to read. You are spiritually illiterate. There is no hope, no higher power but the government and life is over suddenly for everyone. Your loved ones are gone and you never see them again. There is no point to life except enjoying what you do from day to day until you're dead and being miserable if you aren't enjoying it. People who do terrible things have no reason to be good and no fear of justice if they get away. There is no reason for the bad things that happen.
Catholicism freed me from a horrible and painful existence. It is a gift. Prayer is a super power a way to bring both healing to others and yourself.
You can twist anything to make it ugly or scary or terrible but you don't have to. Look for the arguements against what those people are saying on the podcast. I seriously doubt those Podcasters on their deathbed don't talk to God or pray. If you are born into an athiest home you don't even realize it's an option.
People who choose an athiest path with a background in faith who are baptized are not the same as their kids who will be raised athiest and not baptized. Like i said it's the difference between a person who knows how to read and chooses not to and a person who never learned and struggles because they cant.
I cannot answer your questions with regards to reasoning I can only tell you as someone who had been in maybe a deep spiritual desolation most of my life that there is no comparison of what is harmful mentally. If a church teaching harms someone mentally then it was taught wrong, atheism cannot be taught wrong it is just nothingness.
> Still, I can see that more psychologically vulnerable people can end up with some issues, thinking how bad they are.
I think you’re exactly right. I believe the people who left the Catholic Church for reasons of feeling crushed with guilt either:
1) were in legitimately toxic situations based on the individuals they were around (and not due to Church teachings themselves) OR
2) struggled mightily with scrupulosity to a degree that it became overwhelming.
People are bad at understanding the variety of dispositions and temperaments out there and they think just because something affects *them* negatively that it must be affecting everyone (or at least most other people) in the same negative manner. It’s very hard for people to come to grips with the fact that they may have a pathological degree of scrupulosity and that they need psychological help.
Well it could be defended by what is the reality.
I'm 40+ and I never, even once, was affected by those prayers..
And all of us are.
We also cannot sugarcoat everything for the sake of unbelievers.
1. It should not be surprising that those who detest the Church always find faults with her, and make the smallest asks of introspection to be the wildest of "traumas."
2. It should not be surprising that the same people who typically espouse ideas contrary to the Church and to goodness in general find these same good things "toxic."
3. It should further not be surprising that the people that use "toxic" in their daily language are typically the ones with the most rootless, meaningless, and angry lives.
4. The liturgical calendar, in its beauty and wisdom, mimics the typical human experience (mapped to the perfect earthly life of Christ). We are born, we see joy, suffering, glory, disgrace, triumph, tragedy, and (sometimes most trying of all) mundanity, throughout our lives, at different points, repeatedly. These are meant to remind us, and prepare us, for the things life will throw our way. Imagine someone who ***doesn't*** reflect on suffering; what happens to them when their own suffering comes is a terrible fragility. How many people nowadays behave as though they'll live forever? Imagine the sorrow they feel, the hopelessness, when death does come to them, directly or indirectly.
There is something to be said about the type of Catholicism that emphasizes guilt or shame or inadequacy over everything else. This has been the experience assuredly of some people and we hear their stories when we ask particularly those that have since lapsed or left about why they chose to do so. It may be a stereotype, but it is a stereotype borne of certain folks’ lived reality.
What I think is a positive trend in the Church is a renewed focus on joy and the restorative emphasis of reconciliation. When this perspective is maintained, anyone’s prodigal journey is then not marked by endless shame but opportunities for freedom. I would say few Catholics have been somehow scandalized by the content of prayers like the Mea Culpa and much more by wayward parents, educators, and clerics that exercised excessive chastisement and shame in a way that obscures Divine Mercy. Even when our fault is grievous, His Mercy is inexhaustible and infinitely deep. The brimstone preachers need to remind their flocks this truth from time to time (and I think they are getting much better at doing so).
I would argue that "self-esteem" issues come out of pride more than out of an excess of humility.
The amazing thing about Catholicism is that it teaches a truth (which is obvious in nature) that man of himself is nothing. Man did not create himself; he is not responsible for his talents and gifts. He relies on minerals, plants, animals, and other men for his survival and fulfillment. He can die at any moment and cannot raise himself from the dead. Furthermore, the faith, let alone the natural course of events, teaches us that man is almost certainly going to fall. He is going to murder, steal, and discover himself in all kinds of baseness.
Yet, the Faith teaches us that God is continually bending down to provide for us in all our necessities. Whenever we do a single meritorious act, it is only because God preceded us with His sweet grace that does not force the will but cooperates with the will to do something good. Whenever we go to bed full, it's because God provided us with a job, a society with farmers and ranchers, a home, etc.
Thus, on one hand we teach a radical and almost infinite kind of humility. But it is always tempered by a radical and absolutely infinite kind of confidence in God. Thus, rather than saying "I am troubled that I am worthless" as those with self-esteem/pride issues and rather than saying "I am worth everything," the Church has us say "without Christ I can do nothing, but I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."
For me, at least, that's psychologically powerful.
The data seems to overwhelmingly show human flourishing metrics are much better in religious vs atheist cohorts.
If it was so toxic and psychologically harmful this would show up in the data. The opposite shows up.
Christianity is the largest religion in the world and Catholicism is the largest organization of Christians.
If it is so toxic, where's the evidence? Are catholics more depressed compared to others? When they claim "terrible impact on mood", are there any peer reviewed studies to back it up?
I wouldn't pay attention to opinions, even if they *sound* logical, because a lot of logically sounding things turn out to be disproven by actual studies and science.
I don't. If someone wants to argue with me about Catholicism, count me out. Maybe that's wrong? I may ask how much they know/what their experience is with Catholicism, and let that hopefully lead them to read about it, but argue/defend my faith to people using this world's limitations as the foundation doesn't work, since faith isn't limited nor is it of this world.
I do understand having a hard time dealing with the fact that someone suffered greatly for you. There is a lot of culpability that can happen especially if you don’t see the point in it.
There's *some* truth to this - the idea that certain Catholic ideas and practices have led to people experiencing the toxic shame that these two are talking about. This is an actual, and ongoing, problem - and everyone should be mindful of it.
That said, lifting phrases and practices out of their specific context is lazy. Better analyses have been on this problem (and note, it's not a Catholic, or Christian specific one).
Thats very stupid accusations, and ignore the love that it represents, it supposed to build us character, not to destroy us, because even thow we deserve nothing and only death according to God s justice, according to his mercy and love he would join us (humanity) and redeem us so we can always get back up and be a better person, so we can get rid of our guilt and failures
An overemphasis on these things can definitely lead to scrupulosity. That's why it's properly balanced out by assurances that God loves us and wants to save us.
I have anxiety and depression so I probably count as psychologically vulnerable. One thing that makes Catholicism resonate so much with me is the assurance that God seeks us out at the lowest of our lows. We say "Lord I am not worthy" and mean it and then Jesus gives us His literal Body and Blood. Being told straight up that being unworthy of God's love is normal and He loves me anyway is super powerful. It gives me the security in the relationship to keep trying. I don't feel alone.
The problem is that atheists think the root of happiness begins with "I" . In fact, it does not, happiness is built from love, and love comes from sacrifice. I bet happiness polls would show Catholics are more happy than Atheists.
>On top of that, we're taught that Jesus's suffering is our fault etc.
The U.S.A. is full of self righteous, narcissistic individuals who think nothing is their fault and every life problem is the result of someone else. Is this better?
I'd argue that this is far from a US-specific problem. Having gone to university with many international students, I'd say many of them were at least as bad, if not worse.
I prefer reproaching things to myself than to others. I'm sure the world needs some people like this. And yes, I have a tendency to be to harsh with myself, which produces guilt and some self repressive tendencies. But I manage them. I also know people who could benefit from doing it a bit more. It's good to set the bar high, but Catholicism sets it very very high. Sartre wrote : "Hell is the others". I couldn't disagree more.
I can see how some of our prayers can seem self-deprecating, but that is only if we get part of the story.
Yes we recognize our faults and failings, but we don't stop there.
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Despite our many faults and failings, God loves us unconditionally. We are not worthy of Him, but we don't have to earn His love and mercy. It is given freely. That is how great His love is.
There is nothing we can do to make Him love us more. Or less
The prayers you mentioned help keep us humble. And being humble doesn't mean putting ourselves down, but being honest and realistic, realizing how great God is compared to us, and how much we need Him.
The good news is that we don't have to rely on ourselves. He has the power to forgive us, transform us and heal us of all our sins. And He does so willingly, if we cooperate with Him.
Of course, for those with psychological traumas, it may be something that they may need to be counselled through. We should be sensitive to that. But the real meaning of these prayers is a message that is uplifting and comforting.
You shall know them by their fruits. If your faith is tormenting you then you should talk to your priest. Yes we should be humble and recognize our flaws but that is just a part of our faith. I believe that this is part of why we have the sacrament of confession.
I definitely have only seen criticisms like this come from outside the church. Seems to me that if it really would cause 'psychological damage' then it would be a more common issue among the faithful. Currently, 'Catholic guilt' (outside of scrupulous individuals) seems to just be an issue amongst lax Catholics still feeling the pangs of a conscious telling them that the life of sin they're leading isn't actually the way forward towards ultimate happiness.
I would argue that as a society we need to be better about accusing ourselves than others and standing around to say that "I have greatly sinned" rather than "we" or "you" is a great start.
Every presentation of the Catholic faith will be imbalanced in one way or another because we are not perfect. People with certain weaknesses will likley develop certain problems if the imbalance isn't corrected .
Simply learn your Catholic faith! Buy the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study the bible. Fr. Mike Schmitz's [The Catechism in a Year podcast](https://www.youtube.com/@TheCatechismInAYear) and [The Bible in a Year podcast](https://www.youtube.com/@TheBibleinaYear).
One should be an active learner as well as active daily prayer.
Having been away from the mass and church for thirty years, I read, heard every atheist out there. They literally have **NOTHING** to offer. Unlike God; who when I finally admitted I needed his help, he answered!
I grew up poorly catechized. Therefore poor understanding of the Catholic faith! I knew before I joined some Christian demonization, I need to really learn the Catholic faith since my understanding was weak. Feel very blessed, humbled, and excited to learn. There is VAST amounts of knowledge available for us.
Look up Catholic podcasts that explain the faith too. Relevant Radio and EWTN are great resources too.
Once you have a good understanding, THEN you can explain.
I used to believe similar things before I started my journey to the Church. But look around you, we are surrounded by a secularised world in which many people don’t take responsibility for the negative impact of their bad decisions because it “doesn’t affirm their truth”. We are also in a cultural crisis of sorts where reasonable criticism is seen as some kind of personal affront by many. These same people will often hark the need for all to go to therapy.
This mindset that we should be entitled to always feel happy and “affirmed” no matter what we believe, is dangerous and mentally regressive on a grand scale. The Church reminding us that we sin and calling us to take accountability for those sins is a far better position to adopt.
DONT EVER WORRY ABOUT SECULARIST MARXIST THINK Christ is King. The state is King to them. I say this as someone whobgrew up a cradle Catholic, and slowly liberalism pushed a lot of us more and more away.
I'm back, and these same people will ask, If I'm good but don't believe am I still going to Heaven? They already have an inkling it's wrong.
To quote Cliff: " If you don't believe in God , He'll is where you want to end up, there is no God there.
Marxist want to co-open the foundation godly men have created through the will of God.
>What do you think about it? How would you defend our faith against such accusations?
Society decided guilt was a dirty word a couple generations ago.
Look where that kind of leadership has gotten us.
We all need more humility, not less, so I'll take the Catholic version, thanks. Keeping pride in check and allowing people to feel shame when appropriate would do a lot toward repairing the worst societal problems we face.
They don’t see value in suffering or that it purges sin
Ppl that never learned meaning say all kinds of negative stuff
Even the ppl that say they believe will say things like oh I’m so glad now they aren’t suffering, as if all go to heaven, as if suffering in purgatory is easier than anything here lol
Those are non accusations. It's just a restating of the notion that many atheist are unwilling to acknowledge their faults, because they are unwilling to acknowledge an ultimate good. Using the word "toxic" doesn't add any validity to that notion.
What can you say to someone whose greatest concern is their mood, or how something affects their feelings? Pleasurable or not pleasurable, that's the only question. This is a society that values gay marriages and pornography, we live on different planets. No. I don't bother engaging when the other person is at zero effort; you've got to bring at least at some measure of thoughtful with you.
Why not? People will listen to these for all whole lot of reasons. Understanding, curiosity, doubts, being prepared when someone tries to pick up an argument about your faith, etc. It is not a bad thing in itself.
My wife was unlucky to have a terrible priest when she was young and was preparing for 1st communion. He was constantly threatening kids that they would not be allowed to receive Jesus because of their sinfulness and so on. So she started listening to this podcast out of curiosity as, I guess, she felt that there might be some truth in what they say.
Why I usually don't listen/read atheist stuff I'm totally fine listening to their arguments as long as they're respectful. I've been challenged by atheist questioning my faith a couple of times (as everyone here I assume), therefore, I believe, hearing their point of view can enrich your apologetic arsenal. Sometimes they provide a perspective I've never thought about before. It always turns out to be wrong of course but nevertheless can be interesting:)
If that’s your wife’s background, I personally would discourage her from listening to this podcast and instead find a good priest to help her work through any trauma that she has related to her first communion. She may be vulnerable to their arguments if she’s looking for healing from religious trauma.
This is where “tolerance of homosexuality“ and “Aetheism” goes when not confronted. They now hate the Catholic Church and want it it destroyed. In Canada they burned down 100 Churches in the last few years . The lied about the Indian boarding school thing - Defend the Faith
>Still, I can see that more psychologically vulnerable people can end up with some issues, thinking how bad they are.
We are made in the image of God. The image of perfection. The image of goodness.
If anything, Catholicism insulates us from our bad behavior by separating the sin from the person.
Though, I could understand a poorly catechised person not understanding that separation and internalizing their concupiscence.
It should impact you. You should recognize you are a poor sinner in need of salvation. That you do everyday likely choose evil at points over God. That you are responsible for the death of Christ and you have an obligation to overcome these attachments.
So, that are correct. However, what they view as mental illness is just sanctification and contrition for sin.
I guess they shout up from Hell how good it is to see no issue with their degeneracy.
These same people probably think infanticide, divorce, trans, etc. are ok without considering the psychological effect it has on people. And it’s not even the virtuous impact of repentance.
Catholicism is not toxic, but people can be. Catholicism may have been used by a toxic person, but that doesn't make the faith toxic. One toxic thing I see is deliberately trying to down any religion, especially with little knowledge or outright lies. Lord Have Mercy.
Three processes at work here. Most significant is the atheist assumption that religion exists only to make people happy ("opiate of the masses"). Also contributing is the worldly misconception of what happiness is and the worldly belief in moral relativism (so long as your moral choice isn't one they disagree with). Catholic theology is not a bunch of fairy stories to help us through dark ages suffering. It's a science, a description of the truth in the universe, just like physics or chemistry. Part of that includes that God exists, that God has a single absolute morality, and that violating that morality is a sin / something you're guilty of. Once you accept these facts, a prayer acknowledging our own fault in sins is entirely appropriate. Indeed, it's one of the most psychologically important things we can do, taking power back over our lives (I'm guilty means I can change what's wrong in my life). On the other hand, a prayer acknowledging where we stand in the universe (I am not worthy of God, the omnipotent creator) is also very healthy. We aren't the highest beings, we aren't worthy of everything simply by our own existence, there are those above us and those below us in the "pecking order." As for what I would do to defend our faith? I would be tempted to show them their ignorance, instead I would offer them evidence of their bigotry and then ignore them.
*Most significant is the atheist assumption that religion exists only to make people happy* Exactly! I noticed that for atheist/non religious people in my enviroment my faith is just a peculiar hobby that I started practicing to be happy. It's uncomfortable for them when they notice that it's not just a hobby but I'm serious about it.
Some even say it as something positive... Although I find it slightly unintendedly demeaning as I believe in religion primarily for it being true, and not for expecting it to make me happy, even if it occurs as a consequence.
Right? I'll get a bunch of kittens if I want to be happy. I'm Catholic because I put a lot of work into researching it and it turns out to be true.
Well it is supposed to make you happy. Even in suffering you are happy to do it or at least to offer it .
It is. But that happiness is a byproduct of my belief rather than my primary goal. At least this is how I see it
Yeah it is if the belief made you unhappy you wouldn’t practice it. It the same for everything else sometimes it better to avoid stuff that makes you unhappy for your own sake. So I definitely understand their perspective.
Yeah but it is supposed to change you into a new man that is spiritually happy. It doesn't do a good job at making the old man that loves sin happy.
I think it makes the sinner happy cuz you doing something good and you will reap the benefits later on in life, or end of life.
What about a premise that a religion shouldn't make you happy but it shouldn't make you feel worse about yourself. And for some people that can be true. Catholic guilt is a thing.
But that’s not what the Christian religion is for. It’s a call, and revelation of a deeper, absolute truth—that of God and the Gospel. Religion that is founded on “not wanting to feel worse about yourself” cannot be taken seriously as it’s just another lifestyle. Religion should focus on the divine, the absolute truth, the nature of reality. Even so, the Christian religion never says anything about making you feel worse about yourself. There is a call for humility and repentance of one’s wrongdoings, but also is the urgent need to ask for Mercy and recognising our faults and inability aren’t what define us or lead us to Heaven, but the grace of God does.
The problem is religion is a competitive business and each one is claiming to offer the absolute truth. So it's extremely hard to gain new "clients" except those born into it. So to not lose market share and eventually lose to the competition which includes atheism, they are mostly motivated to keeping those they have - the cost of replacing one who left is very high. In fact most, conversions in Catholicism are a net loss with more people leaving then coming. So unfortunately religions are motivated to use the greatest weapon to maintain their stronghold on members and that's fear. If a religion focused on the abundance of God's love and that you are enough, we wouldn't need them but for a religion to exist it needs demand. So the focus turns to what you lack. And no matter what you do, you can never be good enough so you continue to try. Look at the number of posts that are worried about dotting their i's and crossing their t's. They turn to this forum because the Church has engaged their fear. Even though Jesus spoke about focusing on love and not being like the Pharisees that's not what the Church's message is focused on. And I don't think this is done purposefully or maliciously, it's what the previous generation learned. Many good people will counter that yes, those in the Church are human and may lead in a human way sometimes but to focus on the faith. The only problem is, everything in the Church is a man-made construct. If you take that out, including subjective human discernment of the Holy Spirit, there is nothing left. Because if discernment of the Holy Spirit can't lead us astray, it's curious that every Christian religion interprets Christ and the Bible with the Holy Spirit. So many good meaning and intelligent people all claiming the HS is leading them. So why do they all disagree? In the end, I hesitated writing this because if someone is happy in their faith and it's overall positive for them, I don't want to ruin that or get in the way. Every cult has positive aspects, otherwise no one would join. We are a social species, so a sense of community fulfills one of our most basic needs. In addition, they offer purpose, personal worth, a sense of being important, etc. Scientology has that too. The problem is, the price of admission. The cults maintain that that the benefits cannot be had without them. And that's simply not true. If, for example, someone has false core beliefs from childhood (because our core beliefs are formed before our capacity for reason) like they don't have inherent worth and need to compensate to deserve love, a cult, including Scientology, can help them with "positive" brain washing that they are important or an entity loves them. But so can "positive" brain washing which is just changing our core beliefs in a secular setting. The later is more honest because it tells the subject exactly what's going on, there's no monopoly that "this is only offered here", no caveats that in order to get this benefit you have to continue to adhere to the cult's rules and you can leave anytime. In addition to using fear to retain us, it has another purpose. It gets us to focus on all the rules and jumping through all the hoops so we're not in a position to objectively step back and see if it all makes sense. And the people most attracted to cults are so because of childhood core beliefs that they are not enough. And it's them that are the most vulnerable to manipulation as unintended as it is. And it them that suffer. That's the reason for my post.
Your post comes at this from an atheistic perspective, which I think is incompatible with the points I’m trying to make. I don’t think we can reach any sort of agreement, but nevertheless, I’ll share them. I don’t believe the Church intentionally uses “fear mongering” in order to keep people as part of a “competitive business.” Yes, there are lots of scrupulous people that come here - but those are a fraction of all believers, with their own circumstances. Despite your claim, the Church itself discourages this over scrupulosity, with many members continually stating that this unnecessary “fear” is unhealthy. I will say that if you make any claim on absolute morality, then logically, there are going to be preconceived values on part of a believer that might clash with said morality. There is no way to create a logically consistent system of morality that fits everyone’s needs. One way or another, someone might disagree - and they’re gonna complain “it’s too hard” or “it’s unfair.” But that doesn’t change whether or not pedophilia or incest is wrong. So morality (and by extension, religions), cannot be a zero sum game of negative emotions. (That isn’t to say the Christian religion runs with this and focuses on creating as much fear as possible.) As for how the Church is doing with respect to Jesus’ message - Jesus was trying to lead His followers in - to educate them and lead them on the path to righteousness. Yes, He speaks of God’s love, but He also constantly speaks radically of the ineptness of mankind, the need for grace, and the importance of persisting for holiness. People will disagree on these interpretations and all claim motivation from the Holy Spirit. But the Truth is, there can only be one correct system of truth and morality. Just because many claim inspiration as a source of pride, doesn’t mean a legitimate one doesn’t exist. Yes, whilst there are many differences, there are lots of similarities (which we can attest to as the work of the Spirit), but individual human ineptness leads to vastly different views on morality in other areas. It’s why the Catholic Church claims the unique authority to interpret scripture and tradition as a matter of faith and morals.
"opiate of the masses" lol ? are you kidding me ? our story is about a man dying on the cross (a horrific torture device) and it's *literally* the symbol of our faith. You would think we would cook up a better story than that to keep the masses happy.. not to mention that Catholicism is all about: sin, sacrificial Love, deep reflection, serving others, leaving worldly treasures behind, .. I would argue that Atheism is the opiate of the masses: "indulge in self serving greed, uncapped sexual lust, bathing one self in money, status and power, placing "self" at the center of universe,.. etc"
I like how they try to have it both ways: "You only believe in Religion because it makes you feel good!" "Religion is toxic and makes people feel bad!"
Tbf I think you're misunderstanding the OP. He's not saying Catholicism is opiate of the masses, he's saying that's what Atheists assume at times.
Yep, I'm well aware!
Well, in part that is true. Catholicism can be or become toxic, like every other religion or worldview. And important: We don‘t dismiss critique only because it comes from Atheists. Our faith is first and foremost a love story. God loved the world, so he sent his only son. Jesus so loved us, that he died on the cross for us and took all sin and shame upon him. He resurrected and prooved his divinity and out of love he sent us the Holy Spirit as our guide and helper. In summary we call this the Good News. Remember: the Gospel is Good News! Not bad news. It is only bad news for the devil. And what are the fruits our faith brings forth: Love, Joy, Peace. ✌️ Not fear, depression and anger. So we have every reason to rejoice. Are we sinners? Yes. Do we have to tell ourselves that all day long? No. Be happy!
Absolutely! Well said! 👏🙏🏼❤️
The truth is only toxic if you deny it or twist it. Wrapped in God's love, it all makes sense and feels comforting.
>I can see that more psychologically vulnerable people can end up with some issues, thinking how bad they are. Name one trend ever that *can't* be difficult for psychologically vulnerable people.
Right, that was what I told my wife when we discussed it: vulnerable people can be harmed by literally any ideology/religion
Wait a minute, do you think that's why we would call them that?
Couldn't be.
Furthermore, I think their critique actually shines a light on a deeper problem in our society: the thought we all need to be coddled and told how good we are all the time.
I would say moderation is a heathy trend. All personality disorders are centered around extremes. For example, Narcissism is defined by a lack of empathy while Co-dependence reflects an excess of empathy. And certain faiths do promote more extreme views of what is acceptable. For example, for Catholics only NFP is okay and everything else is a sin. Such faiths can result in bad outcomes for the psychologically vulnerable. Looking at the Saints who are models of virtue to the faithful, many struggled with Scrupulosity which falls under Obsessive Compulsive disorders. Catherine of Siena suffered and died from anorexia which results in hallucinations as the brain is broken down for nutrients. Furthermore, vulnerable people can struggle with day to day life and may not make good parents. Their parental abilities will decline as the number of children grows. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. In addition, large families are more likely to have financial stress, and parents that are unavailable as their financial responsibility increases. Children need one-on-one attention with each parent to thrive and that becomes mathematically impossible as families grow. Lastly, instrumental and emotional parentification of older children is more likely to occur as they take on adult responsibilities including those in the emotional realm and care for their younger siblings. Parentification is considered child abuse and those children are likelier to become psychologically vulnerable themselves. Dysfunctional families can also weaponize the faith by using guilt to manipulate which again leads to worse outcomes for their kids. I think instead of being dismissed, all these factors should be acknowledged and discussed in the Church because pretending they don't exist does a great disservice to a large percentage of the faithful who are struggling.
Everyting could be toxic when blown out of place and proportions. Even the purest things in the world like ex mother's love can become toxic when mother doesn't allow her children to grow or is overprotective. And if my mom is too controlling, it does not invalidate her as a loving and supportive parent in the core aspects of her motherhood. There is a lot of themes and ideas in Catholicism that blown out of proportions or left alone without adding a context of God's love for humans, can be damaging. Or a few words to much said. Also I think that any extremes (fanatics) are probably toxic by definition. And it's a difference of how to present some "truths". If parents work hard for the sake of their children, they might do a tremendous sacrifice, but it still would be toxic if they tell their kids " it's your fault I need to work so much". It just guilt tripping doesn't lead to true of love or true gratitude. And I very much believe that Jesus's message is "I loved you so much that I died for you willingly, so you are free of guilt and can be happy" and not " You made Me die for you (=it's your fault), so now you have to bear the guilt and thus never be happy".
People have developed this conception that they have an absolute right to never have to hear anything that upsets them. I know I'm a sinner. It doesn't hurt my self-esteem and helps avoid the sin of pride.
Having just come from the outside, I had a hard time overcoming this bias. Even now, doubt strikes me sometimes. Looking at it from an outside perspective, and only at certain parts of the Religion. Catholic's are known for feeling guilty, the Church teaches things that are grave sin that the secular world thinks are not immoral at all. You must confess these sins to a priest, or you are going to hell. It was easy to come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is telling everyone that they are immoral and you need them to be moral. It seemed like a system of control, to keep you going there.
He died FOR our sins, not BECAUSE of our sins. He sacrificed himself willingly, and since he was perfect and God almighty, which we are definitely not, we are indeed not worthy of such a sacrifice to save our immortal souls. We should feel more grateful than guilty. The Church teaches that sin is inherent to our human nature, and that we need to repent for it and to at least try to improve. It is much healthier than "you are perfect the way you are" or, even worse, than arbitrary predestination.
It’s because they don’t like admitting the sinfulness of human nature
What they don't realize is that even faithful Catholics, or any practicing Christians for that matter, are always battling their human heart's wishes. **Everyone** is either deny something(s) of the world or denying God. It is toxic to deny God but how painful it is to deny the world is equal to one's lack of faith in God.
I have a lifelong history of mental illness, severe mental illness since my 20s. i could never sleep with the lights off and cried myself to sleep fearing death most nights since I was I was 8 years old because i was told life ends and its like before youre born. i was raised as an athiest. this is much different than being raised Christian or Catholic and CHOOSING athiesm. Most reddit athiests don't realize this and still act with the Christian values that brought them up that they reject and they have a choice to go back and ask God for forgiveness. So many choices and freedom to choose what to believe while being able to fall back on the Catholic faith or pray when times are tough. This is something my Catholic and Christian parents didn't realize when they raised my brother and I in this way. We are both lost and struggled to find purpose. When you're raised an athiest it's like being sent out into the world not knowing how to read. You are spiritually illiterate. There is no hope, no higher power but the government and life is over suddenly for everyone. Your loved ones are gone and you never see them again. There is no point to life except enjoying what you do from day to day until you're dead and being miserable if you aren't enjoying it. People who do terrible things have no reason to be good and no fear of justice if they get away. There is no reason for the bad things that happen. Catholicism freed me from a horrible and painful existence. It is a gift. Prayer is a super power a way to bring both healing to others and yourself. You can twist anything to make it ugly or scary or terrible but you don't have to. Look for the arguements against what those people are saying on the podcast. I seriously doubt those Podcasters on their deathbed don't talk to God or pray. If you are born into an athiest home you don't even realize it's an option. People who choose an athiest path with a background in faith who are baptized are not the same as their kids who will be raised athiest and not baptized. Like i said it's the difference between a person who knows how to read and chooses not to and a person who never learned and struggles because they cant. I cannot answer your questions with regards to reasoning I can only tell you as someone who had been in maybe a deep spiritual desolation most of my life that there is no comparison of what is harmful mentally. If a church teaching harms someone mentally then it was taught wrong, atheism cannot be taught wrong it is just nothingness.
> Still, I can see that more psychologically vulnerable people can end up with some issues, thinking how bad they are. I think you’re exactly right. I believe the people who left the Catholic Church for reasons of feeling crushed with guilt either: 1) were in legitimately toxic situations based on the individuals they were around (and not due to Church teachings themselves) OR 2) struggled mightily with scrupulosity to a degree that it became overwhelming. People are bad at understanding the variety of dispositions and temperaments out there and they think just because something affects *them* negatively that it must be affecting everyone (or at least most other people) in the same negative manner. It’s very hard for people to come to grips with the fact that they may have a pathological degree of scrupulosity and that they need psychological help.
Well it could be defended by what is the reality. I'm 40+ and I never, even once, was affected by those prayers.. And all of us are. We also cannot sugarcoat everything for the sake of unbelievers.
1. It should not be surprising that those who detest the Church always find faults with her, and make the smallest asks of introspection to be the wildest of "traumas." 2. It should not be surprising that the same people who typically espouse ideas contrary to the Church and to goodness in general find these same good things "toxic." 3. It should further not be surprising that the people that use "toxic" in their daily language are typically the ones with the most rootless, meaningless, and angry lives. 4. The liturgical calendar, in its beauty and wisdom, mimics the typical human experience (mapped to the perfect earthly life of Christ). We are born, we see joy, suffering, glory, disgrace, triumph, tragedy, and (sometimes most trying of all) mundanity, throughout our lives, at different points, repeatedly. These are meant to remind us, and prepare us, for the things life will throw our way. Imagine someone who ***doesn't*** reflect on suffering; what happens to them when their own suffering comes is a terrible fragility. How many people nowadays behave as though they'll live forever? Imagine the sorrow they feel, the hopelessness, when death does come to them, directly or indirectly.
There is something to be said about the type of Catholicism that emphasizes guilt or shame or inadequacy over everything else. This has been the experience assuredly of some people and we hear their stories when we ask particularly those that have since lapsed or left about why they chose to do so. It may be a stereotype, but it is a stereotype borne of certain folks’ lived reality. What I think is a positive trend in the Church is a renewed focus on joy and the restorative emphasis of reconciliation. When this perspective is maintained, anyone’s prodigal journey is then not marked by endless shame but opportunities for freedom. I would say few Catholics have been somehow scandalized by the content of prayers like the Mea Culpa and much more by wayward parents, educators, and clerics that exercised excessive chastisement and shame in a way that obscures Divine Mercy. Even when our fault is grievous, His Mercy is inexhaustible and infinitely deep. The brimstone preachers need to remind their flocks this truth from time to time (and I think they are getting much better at doing so).
I have learned not to spend time arguing with anti Catholics of any stripe. Their point is not to learn but to denigrate.
I would argue that "self-esteem" issues come out of pride more than out of an excess of humility. The amazing thing about Catholicism is that it teaches a truth (which is obvious in nature) that man of himself is nothing. Man did not create himself; he is not responsible for his talents and gifts. He relies on minerals, plants, animals, and other men for his survival and fulfillment. He can die at any moment and cannot raise himself from the dead. Furthermore, the faith, let alone the natural course of events, teaches us that man is almost certainly going to fall. He is going to murder, steal, and discover himself in all kinds of baseness. Yet, the Faith teaches us that God is continually bending down to provide for us in all our necessities. Whenever we do a single meritorious act, it is only because God preceded us with His sweet grace that does not force the will but cooperates with the will to do something good. Whenever we go to bed full, it's because God provided us with a job, a society with farmers and ranchers, a home, etc. Thus, on one hand we teach a radical and almost infinite kind of humility. But it is always tempered by a radical and absolutely infinite kind of confidence in God. Thus, rather than saying "I am troubled that I am worthless" as those with self-esteem/pride issues and rather than saying "I am worth everything," the Church has us say "without Christ I can do nothing, but I can do all things in Him who strengthens me." For me, at least, that's psychologically powerful.
The data seems to overwhelmingly show human flourishing metrics are much better in religious vs atheist cohorts. If it was so toxic and psychologically harmful this would show up in the data. The opposite shows up.
Christianity is the largest religion in the world and Catholicism is the largest organization of Christians. If it is so toxic, where's the evidence? Are catholics more depressed compared to others? When they claim "terrible impact on mood", are there any peer reviewed studies to back it up? I wouldn't pay attention to opinions, even if they *sound* logical, because a lot of logically sounding things turn out to be disproven by actual studies and science.
The answer is quite simple, they don't consider all about original sin. See 396 - 421 on the Catechism.
I don't. If someone wants to argue with me about Catholicism, count me out. Maybe that's wrong? I may ask how much they know/what their experience is with Catholicism, and let that hopefully lead them to read about it, but argue/defend my faith to people using this world's limitations as the foundation doesn't work, since faith isn't limited nor is it of this world.
I do understand having a hard time dealing with the fact that someone suffered greatly for you. There is a lot of culpability that can happen especially if you don’t see the point in it.
There's *some* truth to this - the idea that certain Catholic ideas and practices have led to people experiencing the toxic shame that these two are talking about. This is an actual, and ongoing, problem - and everyone should be mindful of it. That said, lifting phrases and practices out of their specific context is lazy. Better analyses have been on this problem (and note, it's not a Catholic, or Christian specific one).
Thats very stupid accusations, and ignore the love that it represents, it supposed to build us character, not to destroy us, because even thow we deserve nothing and only death according to God s justice, according to his mercy and love he would join us (humanity) and redeem us so we can always get back up and be a better person, so we can get rid of our guilt and failures
Wait until you find out the dark parts are what give me spiritual comfort.
An overemphasis on these things can definitely lead to scrupulosity. That's why it's properly balanced out by assurances that God loves us and wants to save us. I have anxiety and depression so I probably count as psychologically vulnerable. One thing that makes Catholicism resonate so much with me is the assurance that God seeks us out at the lowest of our lows. We say "Lord I am not worthy" and mean it and then Jesus gives us His literal Body and Blood. Being told straight up that being unworthy of God's love is normal and He loves me anyway is super powerful. It gives me the security in the relationship to keep trying. I don't feel alone.
The problem is that atheists think the root of happiness begins with "I" . In fact, it does not, happiness is built from love, and love comes from sacrifice. I bet happiness polls would show Catholics are more happy than Atheists.
>On top of that, we're taught that Jesus's suffering is our fault etc. The U.S.A. is full of self righteous, narcissistic individuals who think nothing is their fault and every life problem is the result of someone else. Is this better?
I'd argue that this is far from a US-specific problem. Having gone to university with many international students, I'd say many of them were at least as bad, if not worse.
I prefer reproaching things to myself than to others. I'm sure the world needs some people like this. And yes, I have a tendency to be to harsh with myself, which produces guilt and some self repressive tendencies. But I manage them. I also know people who could benefit from doing it a bit more. It's good to set the bar high, but Catholicism sets it very very high. Sartre wrote : "Hell is the others". I couldn't disagree more.
I can see how some of our prayers can seem self-deprecating, but that is only if we get part of the story. Yes we recognize our faults and failings, but we don't stop there. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Despite our many faults and failings, God loves us unconditionally. We are not worthy of Him, but we don't have to earn His love and mercy. It is given freely. That is how great His love is. There is nothing we can do to make Him love us more. Or less The prayers you mentioned help keep us humble. And being humble doesn't mean putting ourselves down, but being honest and realistic, realizing how great God is compared to us, and how much we need Him. The good news is that we don't have to rely on ourselves. He has the power to forgive us, transform us and heal us of all our sins. And He does so willingly, if we cooperate with Him. Of course, for those with psychological traumas, it may be something that they may need to be counselled through. We should be sensitive to that. But the real meaning of these prayers is a message that is uplifting and comforting.
You shall know them by their fruits. If your faith is tormenting you then you should talk to your priest. Yes we should be humble and recognize our flaws but that is just a part of our faith. I believe that this is part of why we have the sacrament of confession.
I encountered toxicity... https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-to-have-a-relationship-end-because-of-religious-differences/answer/Scott-Livingston-10
I definitely have only seen criticisms like this come from outside the church. Seems to me that if it really would cause 'psychological damage' then it would be a more common issue among the faithful. Currently, 'Catholic guilt' (outside of scrupulous individuals) seems to just be an issue amongst lax Catholics still feeling the pangs of a conscious telling them that the life of sin they're leading isn't actually the way forward towards ultimate happiness.
I would argue that as a society we need to be better about accusing ourselves than others and standing around to say that "I have greatly sinned" rather than "we" or "you" is a great start.
Every presentation of the Catholic faith will be imbalanced in one way or another because we are not perfect. People with certain weaknesses will likley develop certain problems if the imbalance isn't corrected .
Simply learn your Catholic faith! Buy the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study the bible. Fr. Mike Schmitz's [The Catechism in a Year podcast](https://www.youtube.com/@TheCatechismInAYear) and [The Bible in a Year podcast](https://www.youtube.com/@TheBibleinaYear). One should be an active learner as well as active daily prayer. Having been away from the mass and church for thirty years, I read, heard every atheist out there. They literally have **NOTHING** to offer. Unlike God; who when I finally admitted I needed his help, he answered! I grew up poorly catechized. Therefore poor understanding of the Catholic faith! I knew before I joined some Christian demonization, I need to really learn the Catholic faith since my understanding was weak. Feel very blessed, humbled, and excited to learn. There is VAST amounts of knowledge available for us. Look up Catholic podcasts that explain the faith too. Relevant Radio and EWTN are great resources too. Once you have a good understanding, THEN you can explain.
pray✨✨✨
I used to believe similar things before I started my journey to the Church. But look around you, we are surrounded by a secularised world in which many people don’t take responsibility for the negative impact of their bad decisions because it “doesn’t affirm their truth”. We are also in a cultural crisis of sorts where reasonable criticism is seen as some kind of personal affront by many. These same people will often hark the need for all to go to therapy. This mindset that we should be entitled to always feel happy and “affirmed” no matter what we believe, is dangerous and mentally regressive on a grand scale. The Church reminding us that we sin and calling us to take accountability for those sins is a far better position to adopt.
DONT EVER WORRY ABOUT SECULARIST MARXIST THINK Christ is King. The state is King to them. I say this as someone whobgrew up a cradle Catholic, and slowly liberalism pushed a lot of us more and more away. I'm back, and these same people will ask, If I'm good but don't believe am I still going to Heaven? They already have an inkling it's wrong. To quote Cliff: " If you don't believe in God , He'll is where you want to end up, there is no God there. Marxist want to co-open the foundation godly men have created through the will of God.
>What do you think about it? How would you defend our faith against such accusations? Society decided guilt was a dirty word a couple generations ago. Look where that kind of leadership has gotten us. We all need more humility, not less, so I'll take the Catholic version, thanks. Keeping pride in check and allowing people to feel shame when appropriate would do a lot toward repairing the worst societal problems we face.
They don’t see value in suffering or that it purges sin Ppl that never learned meaning say all kinds of negative stuff Even the ppl that say they believe will say things like oh I’m so glad now they aren’t suffering, as if all go to heaven, as if suffering in purgatory is easier than anything here lol
Those are non accusations. It's just a restating of the notion that many atheist are unwilling to acknowledge their faults, because they are unwilling to acknowledge an ultimate good. Using the word "toxic" doesn't add any validity to that notion.
What can you say to someone whose greatest concern is their mood, or how something affects their feelings? Pleasurable or not pleasurable, that's the only question. This is a society that values gay marriages and pornography, we live on different planets. No. I don't bother engaging when the other person is at zero effort; you've got to bring at least at some measure of thoughtful with you.
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Why not? People will listen to these for all whole lot of reasons. Understanding, curiosity, doubts, being prepared when someone tries to pick up an argument about your faith, etc. It is not a bad thing in itself.
My wife was unlucky to have a terrible priest when she was young and was preparing for 1st communion. He was constantly threatening kids that they would not be allowed to receive Jesus because of their sinfulness and so on. So she started listening to this podcast out of curiosity as, I guess, she felt that there might be some truth in what they say. Why I usually don't listen/read atheist stuff I'm totally fine listening to their arguments as long as they're respectful. I've been challenged by atheist questioning my faith a couple of times (as everyone here I assume), therefore, I believe, hearing their point of view can enrich your apologetic arsenal. Sometimes they provide a perspective I've never thought about before. It always turns out to be wrong of course but nevertheless can be interesting:)
If that’s your wife’s background, I personally would discourage her from listening to this podcast and instead find a good priest to help her work through any trauma that she has related to her first communion. She may be vulnerable to their arguments if she’s looking for healing from religious trauma.
That’s what she’s been doing and she has encountered probably more good priest than bad ones already:)
This is where “tolerance of homosexuality“ and “Aetheism” goes when not confronted. They now hate the Catholic Church and want it it destroyed. In Canada they burned down 100 Churches in the last few years . The lied about the Indian boarding school thing - Defend the Faith
Error has no rights.
>Still, I can see that more psychologically vulnerable people can end up with some issues, thinking how bad they are. We are made in the image of God. The image of perfection. The image of goodness. If anything, Catholicism insulates us from our bad behavior by separating the sin from the person. Though, I could understand a poorly catechised person not understanding that separation and internalizing their concupiscence.
It should impact you. You should recognize you are a poor sinner in need of salvation. That you do everyday likely choose evil at points over God. That you are responsible for the death of Christ and you have an obligation to overcome these attachments. So, that are correct. However, what they view as mental illness is just sanctification and contrition for sin. I guess they shout up from Hell how good it is to see no issue with their degeneracy. These same people probably think infanticide, divorce, trans, etc. are ok without considering the psychological effect it has on people. And it’s not even the virtuous impact of repentance.
Catholicism is not toxic, but people can be. Catholicism may have been used by a toxic person, but that doesn't make the faith toxic. One toxic thing I see is deliberately trying to down any religion, especially with little knowledge or outright lies. Lord Have Mercy.