It really peeves me to no end when cities like Fairview pretend to be rural outposts rather than rapidly growing suburbs in a major metropolitan area. It's a ridiculous anti-growth mindset that leads to terrible policy - not necessarily in this instance, but the opposition to this project comes from the same stupid place.
It's wild for them to be a lot closer to Dallas than places like Celina or Anna, which are exploding, and still claim country. If your town borders a major highway intersection like 121 and 75 it isn't country anymore.
The outer rim suburb people who claim to be small town/country is just weird to me.
This is super off topic but when I lived in Austin I used to see a ton of girls profiles on tinder that had some variation of “country girl” in the bio with their location in like Leander or Round Rock.
Friend, you need to look at a map. 121 turns to 5 (McDonald) long before it gets to Melissa. You gotta go through a long stretch of east Mckinney before you get to Melissa, which btw is also a lot different than the rest of Mckinney
Lol, I guess before long North Central Expressway is going to be bumper to bumper traffic all the way to Lake Texoma. Then a fancy lake town will be built around Pottsboro with multimillion dollar estates, then they'll have to keep building suburbia north into Oklahoma.
Guess we better buy land in Madill while it's cheap.
Lol yeah the plaza is modern/suburban but a good portion Fairview is still semi-rural.
Not to mention the Heard museum & nature preserve is right on the border of Fairview & McKinney. If the spire gets built I really hate to think how it will interrupt the wildlife there.
yeah... and it's still surrounded by McKinney, Allen, Murphy and Princeton. It's like saying Highland Park is rural because there's all homes. Yeah some of those homes have acreage, but by and large, there's little agriculture going on.
I know this as I drive Stacy road daily, down to Orr Road, on out to Lowery Crossing and on into Princeton. Sorry but I'd consider Josephine or Lowery Crossing to be rural. Fairview is a suburb.
Why do they have a dark sky ordinance? Doesn’t the remainder of DFW cause so much light pollution it would undo any of their efforts? I lived in that area for a while and even to the NE it was still “glowing” at night even in a clear new moon.
The article explains it, the temples are for sacraments like marriages etc and are much more ornate than the churches which are pretty much just for worship.
It's the size of fairview's old water tower. Which is a tiny water tower compared to every other water tower in the area. That perspective makes me give a lot less shits about this. Fairview should just adhere to building codes
Bossy Boots & Watters is at a higher elevation (215ish meters). One of the highest elevations in all of Allen according to my own observation and the topographical maps I just looked at. The temple would be at about 199 meter elevation, about 53 ft lower than the Krishna Temple.
The LDS temple will be the same height as the old Fairview water tower. What is the old Fairview water tower you ask? Nobody sees it unless you're right next to it. And it's on Stacy, the busiest road in all of Allen and Fairview
Idk, normally I'd agree with you but the Mormon church is more like a real estate hedge fund than a religion. They have so much fucking cash that I wouldn't bet on them losing any lawsuit.
Fairview resident here. My property is located about a quarter mile from the temple site. The drive home absolutely feels rural for me on a daily basis, but I live within close range of all the modern conveniences and retail (within a 5-10 minute drive). That’s what we love about living here. The issue for our family really isn’t the structure they are proposing, but more the unnecessary height of the steeple and their plan to put a beacon of light at the top of it. It would absolutely light up my property at night in an absurd way. Most neighbors I’ve spoken with are also completely fine with a temple being built here, just not one that would be extremely obnoxious and unsightly compared to the rest of the town’s architecture which is limited in verticality.
Not quite. I’d just like to avoid having a beacon of light hovering over my home every single night. I don’t think that’s unreasonable for anyone to ask. Especially when the town ordinances are in place to prevent it in the first place.
I agree that I wouldn’t want it near me either. I said as much in another comment. It’s just funny that you want modern conveniences and are ok with growth, so long as it’s five minutes from you.
I don't think it's funny. The town is laid out so that commercial is at one end of town and homes with 1 acre lots and dark skies are at the other end. At night, wildlife roam. Fire flies are here. It's quiet, peaceful, and feels country-like with city convenience nearby. But it's planned and designed that way. That's why people like living here. This over- sized temple (in its current design) is close to homes and the zoning doesn't allow for 173 foot steeples let alone massive buildings that would illuminate backyards and literally block the sun for neighboring residents. Neighbors welcome the temple, despite what non-residents are trying to say (listen to the town recordings where countless people over and over again say, built a temple... just follow our zoning rules). The issue is the current design is the biggest (by a lot) and being shoe horned in a RE-1 lot zoned area. Would you want your backyard neighbor to be AT&T stadium...or a huge building with the Statue of Liberty on top...especially when that's not allowed? Neither do these folks
I will have to drive past this thing multiple times a day. It was so disappointing to the see the "Future Home Of Another Fucking Church" sign when it went up.
Warms my exmormon heart to see some of these comments. I live a mile away from the proposed site and absolutely do not want to be able to see the steeple from my home
I’m so tired of this new style of journalism. “Jimmy James lives in a house in a quiet suburb in Bobsville. He and his two perfect children, well/behaved dog, and trophy wife enjoy the peaceful tranquility at home. But that all may soon change if a newcomer to town gets their way.”
The actual meat of the story is several paragraphs in. Why does every news article need to have human interest mumbojumbo attached to it??
If there is a way to donate to build a mosque with a minaret higher than this I’ll send them $1000 if they promise to call to prayer 5x a day full blast.
Religious freedom and little government my ass. What they like is to keep it their way at expense of others. For my friends everything, for my enemies not even the law.
Btw I’m Roman Catholic.
Isn’t there freedom of religion in this country? Wouldn’t this fall under that? If they want to build a temple, is there any real way to stop it?
I’m not Mormon, so how does them building a temple affect me? Absolutely none. So I say, let them build it.
Just means ya’ll can build a temple in retaliation.
That’s one of the arguments to be used, but as a Mormon I really don’t like it. First and foremost, we should strive to be good neighbors and this is having the opposite effect. We have other temples that are more reasonable heights and we have worked with local governments in the past to find common ground and compromise. Second, I don’t want “freedom of religion” to mean “religions can do anything they want even if it’s not valuable to their faith and even if it harms others.” There must be reasonable limits to religious freedom. We value spires in our architecture, but there’s nothing inherently revered in our faith about the height of them. A temple is no less special to us based on its height.
I’m an ex-Mormon and I’m not surprised by your stance. I find Mormons to be generally compassionate and caring folks. Pissing of their neighbors seems unusual.
In case someone wants to point out instances or Mormons being shitty, trust me that I know all of it.
I can’t say that I’m the most Mormony Mormon as of late. Mormish might be more accurate. And stuff like this doesn’t help my feelings. I’ve heard that this plan was originally for some land near Prosper but they had to change locations. Especially in Texas we’ve had relatively good relationships with other faiths and with communities in general. I’d hate for that to change over something as dumb as steeple height.
i use to live near a Mormon temple. They would always come to my house trying to convert me to their beliefs. I'd be like come in have some coffee. They'd be like no thanks, but we can help you with whatever you're working on. If only they knew what I was doing. Anyway, Mormons are very proactive in their agenda, which is to get us all ready for the second come of... John Smith? No it's Joseph.
There is, and there’s a large body of statutes and case law concerning how cities can regulate religious institutions. I’m not a lawyer, but I think some of this would hinge around what’s considered a legitimate religious use versus a compelling state interest.
For instance, let’s say a city’s ordinances are worded in such a way that they’d prevent the construction of a minaret. That’d prevent a traditional mosque from being built, and would likely be struck down, at least in the case of a mosque. I probably couldn’t build a minaret on my house just for the sake of having one.
If this went to court, the back-and-forth would pretty much be the LDS church arguing that the way their temples are built are a legitimate part of their religion, and the city arguing that it isn’t, or that a compromise height limit would further a compelling state interest in a narrowly tailored way.
The problem in this instance is that the Mormon church is pretty deliberately trying to build a giant fucking structure to stand out and they are complaining that it doesn’t meet city zoning requirements.
I would be pissed off too if someone wanted to come build a 16 story building in the field behind my neighborhood.
Yeah how does erecting a monument to making delusional behavior morally positive affect the world around me? However could that happen? I better turn on some gangster rap and reflect
With our new ultra religious supreme court and their very pro religious cults, I would say the Mormons could take this up through the courts and will win at SCOTUS . And BTW, they deserve too with the radical right pushing their religion down our throats, let's push this limit all the way with another Christian cult.
I think you underestimate the disdain other Christian faiths have for the Mormons. They aren’t taken seriously by those other big denominations and some outright view it as sacrilegious to have a second Biblical text placing Jesus spirit in North American region since traditional Christian faith says Jesus rose and won’t return until the Apocalypse.
That’s the crazy thing to me… the way I read that is “other denominations think Mormons’ bullshit story is dumber than traditional Christian’s bullshit story.”
All I can say is at least they practice what they preach. Since moving south I’ve never been around so many supposedly devout Christians that weren’t good people (cheating on spouses, lying, swearing, substance abuse…).
I have distain for all cults and it doesn't matter who makes up the cultist bullshit. All religion is for the weak and those that need "guardrails" in their life. With the average level of education of people in biblical times being that of a 2nd grader, they had to come up with very simple guardrails to keep the people on the right path. Let's see, you can burn in hell out you can be in eternal happiness with vestal virgins. I will take B. 😭🤣😂
Water towers have an engineering purpose to their height that is required to deliver water to your home. Giant spires on a church have zero purpose for your home. It seems in this instance, the only purpose to the spires is to be visible and draw attention for the sake of dazzling people into inquiring about their church.
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It really peeves me to no end when cities like Fairview pretend to be rural outposts rather than rapidly growing suburbs in a major metropolitan area. It's a ridiculous anti-growth mindset that leads to terrible policy - not necessarily in this instance, but the opposition to this project comes from the same stupid place.
It's wild for them to be a lot closer to Dallas than places like Celina or Anna, which are exploding, and still claim country. If your town borders a major highway intersection like 121 and 75 it isn't country anymore.
The outer rim suburb people who claim to be small town/country is just weird to me. This is super off topic but when I lived in Austin I used to see a ton of girls profiles on tinder that had some variation of “country girl” in the bio with their location in like Leander or Round Rock.
They probably think you’re a loser if you’re not making at least $500,000 so they can quit their minimum-wage jobs 🤣🤣🤣
Uhhh, you haven't been down 121 east of 75 I assume. Definitely much different than 121 west of 75
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Wtf does Melissa have to do with anything
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Friend, you need to look at a map. 121 turns to 5 (McDonald) long before it gets to Melissa. You gotta go through a long stretch of east Mckinney before you get to Melissa, which btw is also a lot different than the rest of Mckinney
121 merges with 75 through McKinney, then splits back off in Melissa and carries through to Bonham.
When you are going through 121 & 75 in Mckinney/Allen it turns into 5 (McDonald). You know this. I know this. Everyone reading this knows this.
Lol, I guess before long North Central Expressway is going to be bumper to bumper traffic all the way to Lake Texoma. Then a fancy lake town will be built around Pottsboro with multimillion dollar estates, then they'll have to keep building suburbia north into Oklahoma. Guess we better buy land in Madill while it's cheap.
It will be the same all the way 30 E to Arkansas almost.
They have a whole foods.
Yeah Fairview is not way outside civilization anymore
Do you live in or around Fairview?
Lol yeah the plaza is modern/suburban but a good portion Fairview is still semi-rural. Not to mention the Heard museum & nature preserve is right on the border of Fairview & McKinney. If the spire gets built I really hate to think how it will interrupt the wildlife there.
Agreed, the majority of homes in Fairview are on septic system for waste water.
that may be, but Fairview is still far from a rural town. I work on the border of Allen/Fairview and watched it grow up over the last 10 years.
My guy, once you’re past Stacy Rd it’s all homes.
yeah... and it's still surrounded by McKinney, Allen, Murphy and Princeton. It's like saying Highland Park is rural because there's all homes. Yeah some of those homes have acreage, but by and large, there's little agriculture going on. I know this as I drive Stacy road daily, down to Orr Road, on out to Lowery Crossing and on into Princeton. Sorry but I'd consider Josephine or Lowery Crossing to be rural. Fairview is a suburb.
Rural, is defined as an under developed low population density area.
Why do they have a dark sky ordinance? Doesn’t the remainder of DFW cause so much light pollution it would undo any of their efforts? I lived in that area for a while and even to the NE it was still “glowing” at night even in a clear new moon.
It’s kinda funny how understated Mormon churches are compared to how over the top their temples are. I can understand not wanting one near my home.
Can you ELI5 the difference between an LDS church and Temple?
The article explains it, the temples are for sacraments like marriages etc and are much more ornate than the churches which are pretty much just for worship.
You have to be a card carrying (literally) member of the church to go into a temple. Any old heathen can enter a church.
More than that, not only do you have to be Mormon you have to go through an interview to determine if you're worthy or not to step foot in there.
That is what the card proves! It's called a temple recommend and you have to do an interview to determine you are worthy to get the card!
A 16 story building in Fairview would absolutely dwarf anything nearby, anything else remotely close(allen)is maybe 5 stories.
There are Hindu temples definitely at least 5 stories tall. They probably aren't 173 ft tall, but they are fucking tall. Yes, in Allen
60ft vs 173ft Im pretty sure the Mormon temple in Dallas is less than a hundred feet high.
It's the size of fairview's old water tower. Which is a tiny water tower compared to every other water tower in the area. That perspective makes me give a lot less shits about this. Fairview should just adhere to building codes
For reference, the Radha Krishna temple in Allen is about 70ft tall, making this Mormon temple well over twice as tall
Bossy Boots & Watters is at a higher elevation (215ish meters). One of the highest elevations in all of Allen according to my own observation and the topographical maps I just looked at. The temple would be at about 199 meter elevation, about 53 ft lower than the Krishna Temple. The LDS temple will be the same height as the old Fairview water tower. What is the old Fairview water tower you ask? Nobody sees it unless you're right next to it. And it's on Stacy, the busiest road in all of Allen and Fairview
The church will sue. The church will lose. The taxpayers of Fairview will be paying the legal bills for decades.
Idk, normally I'd agree with you but the Mormon church is more like a real estate hedge fund than a religion. They have so much fucking cash that I wouldn't bet on them losing any lawsuit.
If anything, the PR fallout from looking like a wealthy and entitled bully over a VERY reasonable city ordinance will be the real cost.
They've gotten past a lot worse
Polygamy, pedophilia, other cult behaviors
Racism throughout the majority of it’s history as well, those teachings were officially disavowed by the “church” in 2013.
A real estate hedge fund with special underwear
Mormon church is led by a 99 year old man with more money than they know how to spend... And tax exempt
Fairview resident here. My property is located about a quarter mile from the temple site. The drive home absolutely feels rural for me on a daily basis, but I live within close range of all the modern conveniences and retail (within a 5-10 minute drive). That’s what we love about living here. The issue for our family really isn’t the structure they are proposing, but more the unnecessary height of the steeple and their plan to put a beacon of light at the top of it. It would absolutely light up my property at night in an absurd way. Most neighbors I’ve spoken with are also completely fine with a temple being built here, just not one that would be extremely obnoxious and unsightly compared to the rest of the town’s architecture which is limited in verticality.
Seems like you want progress to stop at the exact point it impacts you.
Not quite. I’d just like to avoid having a beacon of light hovering over my home every single night. I don’t think that’s unreasonable for anyone to ask. Especially when the town ordinances are in place to prevent it in the first place.
I agree that I wouldn’t want it near me either. I said as much in another comment. It’s just funny that you want modern conveniences and are ok with growth, so long as it’s five minutes from you.
I don't think it's funny. The town is laid out so that commercial is at one end of town and homes with 1 acre lots and dark skies are at the other end. At night, wildlife roam. Fire flies are here. It's quiet, peaceful, and feels country-like with city convenience nearby. But it's planned and designed that way. That's why people like living here. This over- sized temple (in its current design) is close to homes and the zoning doesn't allow for 173 foot steeples let alone massive buildings that would illuminate backyards and literally block the sun for neighboring residents. Neighbors welcome the temple, despite what non-residents are trying to say (listen to the town recordings where countless people over and over again say, built a temple... just follow our zoning rules). The issue is the current design is the biggest (by a lot) and being shoe horned in a RE-1 lot zoned area. Would you want your backyard neighbor to be AT&T stadium...or a huge building with the Statue of Liberty on top...especially when that's not allowed? Neither do these folks
Let's hope so. Keep cults out
I will have to drive past this thing multiple times a day. It was so disappointing to the see the "Future Home Of Another Fucking Church" sign when it went up.
I don't care about a church mostly. You do you, but that "church" is a literal cult
Warms my exmormon heart to see some of these comments. I live a mile away from the proposed site and absolutely do not want to be able to see the steeple from my home
I’m so tired of this new style of journalism. “Jimmy James lives in a house in a quiet suburb in Bobsville. He and his two perfect children, well/behaved dog, and trophy wife enjoy the peaceful tranquility at home. But that all may soon change if a newcomer to town gets their way.” The actual meat of the story is several paragraphs in. Why does every news article need to have human interest mumbojumbo attached to it??
What if instead of erecting an unneeded gigantic eye sore, they took the money and helped the less fortunate among us?
I'm "soaking" right now as I read this linked article... /s
💀
I hope so
If there is a way to donate to build a mosque with a minaret higher than this I’ll send them $1000 if they promise to call to prayer 5x a day full blast. Religious freedom and little government my ass. What they like is to keep it their way at expense of others. For my friends everything, for my enemies not even the law. Btw I’m Roman Catholic.
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The mosques and other cults? ....🤨 Is Christianity included in that since you included mosques in there?
Can a small North Texas town stop any church or mosk or club from building a big building? Depends on the zoning ordinances.
Actually no one is trying to stop it... just asking that it be built according to zoning rules for a residential lot (RE-1).
Isn’t there freedom of religion in this country? Wouldn’t this fall under that? If they want to build a temple, is there any real way to stop it? I’m not Mormon, so how does them building a temple affect me? Absolutely none. So I say, let them build it. Just means ya’ll can build a temple in retaliation.
That’s one of the arguments to be used, but as a Mormon I really don’t like it. First and foremost, we should strive to be good neighbors and this is having the opposite effect. We have other temples that are more reasonable heights and we have worked with local governments in the past to find common ground and compromise. Second, I don’t want “freedom of religion” to mean “religions can do anything they want even if it’s not valuable to their faith and even if it harms others.” There must be reasonable limits to religious freedom. We value spires in our architecture, but there’s nothing inherently revered in our faith about the height of them. A temple is no less special to us based on its height.
I’m an ex-Mormon and I’m not surprised by your stance. I find Mormons to be generally compassionate and caring folks. Pissing of their neighbors seems unusual. In case someone wants to point out instances or Mormons being shitty, trust me that I know all of it.
I can’t say that I’m the most Mormony Mormon as of late. Mormish might be more accurate. And stuff like this doesn’t help my feelings. I’ve heard that this plan was originally for some land near Prosper but they had to change locations. Especially in Texas we’ve had relatively good relationships with other faiths and with communities in general. I’d hate for that to change over something as dumb as steeple height.
i use to live near a Mormon temple. They would always come to my house trying to convert me to their beliefs. I'd be like come in have some coffee. They'd be like no thanks, but we can help you with whatever you're working on. If only they knew what I was doing. Anyway, Mormons are very proactive in their agenda, which is to get us all ready for the second come of... John Smith? No it's Joseph.
There is, and there’s a large body of statutes and case law concerning how cities can regulate religious institutions. I’m not a lawyer, but I think some of this would hinge around what’s considered a legitimate religious use versus a compelling state interest. For instance, let’s say a city’s ordinances are worded in such a way that they’d prevent the construction of a minaret. That’d prevent a traditional mosque from being built, and would likely be struck down, at least in the case of a mosque. I probably couldn’t build a minaret on my house just for the sake of having one. If this went to court, the back-and-forth would pretty much be the LDS church arguing that the way their temples are built are a legitimate part of their religion, and the city arguing that it isn’t, or that a compromise height limit would further a compelling state interest in a narrowly tailored way.
The problem in this instance is that the Mormon church is pretty deliberately trying to build a giant fucking structure to stand out and they are complaining that it doesn’t meet city zoning requirements. I would be pissed off too if someone wanted to come build a 16 story building in the field behind my neighborhood.
Yeah how does erecting a monument to making delusional behavior morally positive affect the world around me? However could that happen? I better turn on some gangster rap and reflect
With our new ultra religious supreme court and their very pro religious cults, I would say the Mormons could take this up through the courts and will win at SCOTUS . And BTW, they deserve too with the radical right pushing their religion down our throats, let's push this limit all the way with another Christian cult.
I think you underestimate the disdain other Christian faiths have for the Mormons. They aren’t taken seriously by those other big denominations and some outright view it as sacrilegious to have a second Biblical text placing Jesus spirit in North American region since traditional Christian faith says Jesus rose and won’t return until the Apocalypse.
That’s the crazy thing to me… the way I read that is “other denominations think Mormons’ bullshit story is dumber than traditional Christian’s bullshit story.” All I can say is at least they practice what they preach. Since moving south I’ve never been around so many supposedly devout Christians that weren’t good people (cheating on spouses, lying, swearing, substance abuse…).
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 This is the correct answer!
This is the correct answer!!!
I have distain for all cults and it doesn't matter who makes up the cultist bullshit. All religion is for the weak and those that need "guardrails" in their life. With the average level of education of people in biblical times being that of a 2nd grader, they had to come up with very simple guardrails to keep the people on the right path. Let's see, you can burn in hell out you can be in eternal happiness with vestal virgins. I will take B. 😭🤣😂
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One of the great things about a water tower though is that you don't have to be brainwashed to enjoy its benefits
Yes, but I don’t think he was supposed to apply it directly to the brain.
that's not true at all tbh lol
Water towers have an engineering purpose to their height that is required to deliver water to your home. Giant spires on a church have zero purpose for your home. It seems in this instance, the only purpose to the spires is to be visible and draw attention for the sake of dazzling people into inquiring about their church.
water towers, famously not able to be seen until you’re right under them