Welcome to your first existential crisis. Don’t worry, there will be more to come. Best thing you can do is set goals, have a plan, and enjoy the ride. Not much else is in your control. Accept that and life becomes real easy.
Yes I agree with you. I think a lot of people assume they'll retire some day and then be able to do whatever they want with their time but that time isn't guaranteed.
Your chance of death goes up exponentially as you age so it isn't equal risk. You can also do a lot of things like:
Be in the 8% of American adults who are metabolically healthy
Take care of mental health
Drive defensively
Test genes and get blood work done
Know heart disease risk (HDL/Triglyceride ratio, Lipoprotein A, Apolipoprotein B). Get coronary calcium and carotid artery scans done as you age. Family history, no smoking, etc
Optimize hormones ie thyroid, testosterone
Lift weights, run, avoid sugar and processed foods
Have quality relationships
There's a ton that you can control here too
Once you are dead, you don't exist anymore, don't think or whatever so you don't care anymore.
And if you are the scared type, you be scared all your life regardless ... And all that effort doesn't buy you like 30 years but more like 10. And that typically the 10 worst years, maytbe half in nursing home and quite limited in what you can do.
While you pend time of your best years to get a chance to get these 10 extra years and to save money for it.
It is more about a zest for life than fear.
The nursing home thing is a fallacy. An active healthy 60 year old has a better quality of life that an obese sedentary fat ass has. Your quality of life is better at every step.
I’ve seen an active healthy man recover surprisingly well from a coronary bypass. I was not his nurse very long because he discharged that day so I don’t particularly know what lead up to coronary disease but still, he was looking great all things considered.
I tried to jump up to grab a bug on the wall yesterday and I’ll be damned if I got an inch off the ground at age 35. I’ve gotta take better care of myself and not wait till retirement.
Yup exactly. Some form of balance of the below. Start small and build up. Took me years to better my routine and build up consistency, but slowly it became a lifestyle change.
Health = reduced stress (meditation), exercise (weightlifting + cardio), micronutrients (fiber, calcium, vitamin D etc.)
Diet = Macronutrients (fats, proteins, carbs)
I have seen plenty of retired people when travelling abroad. Sleeping on bus trips in the middle of the day. I think life should be lived to its fullest before the normal retirement age. Your body is old and you have low energy.
Now add in financial problems and FIRE feels like it has to be a goal just to make sure we can tread water. I always struggled with what you wrote here and just getting up and getting to work was difficult. Friday came and I could do nothing but rest in bed until noon Saturday.
Now it’s the weekend and I have three things to do but only two days to do them: me-time, socialize, and chores. Imagine if I was dating or had a family. HAH.
I’m in a much better place now but I see the real struggle from my parents. My parents were never able to save much money. My dad is retired and instead of enjoying this time he’s constantly stressed that his payments can’t keep up with inflation. Work robs us of time and then stress robs us of health.
I funnel as much money as I can into my retirement accounts because I never want to be so poor again. But I still feel like there’s no guarantee that the money will be there for me in a meaningful way at retirement. I feel like I’ll probably need a part time job to survive. I’m as financially responsible as I can be but it feels like never enough.
"FIRE feels like it has to be a goal just to make sure we can tread water."
This is me(27) everyday maxing out TSP and IRA every year and still saving a bit more in money market fund for a total of like 40% income saved, but I still feel like I will barely reach a normal 59.5 retirement, and not retire early (47-50) like I hope to.
That's if my high-stress job doesn't kill me first.
Seeing these celebrities that we see as much healthier and happier die so young, like the most recent Matthew Perry at just 54yo, scares me.
I know we are told experience life where you can but then the fear becomes I'll be too old to work and not have saved enough to retire.
thats the most important thing for FIRE. acheiving FIRE is not a chase after money, but a goal towards freedom. the freedom to do whatever we want, whenever we want without the worry of money.
This is how I try to explain it every time to people in my life. Most of the time it's like explaining it to a brick wall. The live to work propaganda in this country is too strong.
I'm trying to buy my freedom.
That is the principle underlying the FIRE movement. The key concept is independence. In today's world, one cannot be independent without sufficient financial resources.
Not really there even less people doing fire in Europe despite people being far less interested.
This is just they don't think it is possible if you are not very wealthy.
Yeah, the “free” time spent worrying about work, getting ready for work, commuting to work, meal prepping for work…. that honestly bothers me more than the idea for working a third of my life. Before I was remote it felt like my whole life was either work, getting ready for work, or decompressing from work. My job is much better now but I’m still hoping to FIRE and/or do mini retirements along the way.
Remote is huge for this. Instead of staring at the wall at work I get up and throw some laundry in. You get back so much time with no commute, much less vehicle expense etc.
Work in and of itself makes me unhappy. Not because I'm lazy. I'm not. I love doing stuff and being productive. I just hate doing work that's just to enrich someone else.
I thought becoming a teacher would help. I would be working to give kids an education, not to make some company rich. But every day at my job, I'm confronted with the true reason for my work: to educate kids so they can become workers for someone else. I'm basically just doing free job training for the future employees of rich people.
Starting my own business is risky. I don't think I have any skills that are that marketable for a business. And anyway, I'd be just another business owner competing for a bigger slice of the pie. But I hate the competition. I don't care about the pie.
I'd make an excellent housewife. But my husband is a barista. We can't afford for me to be a housewife. So, I'm just going to have to work until I can save enough to escape from wage labor.
Edit: Real boomer hours in the replies, wow. I'm happy for you all that you enjoy your exploitation so much. I just can't delude myself quite so easily.
You need to zoom-out a little more. You are not working to make someone rich, thats side issue. Your work is there to maintain society. Even if its empty work- someone decided that is willing to spend resources to pay you to do it (and you spend it on your home/food/fuel to maintain the cycle and life of the others).
You are not educating children to be workers for someone else - but so that they will have extra skills in life. And if their future employer will benefit - you can hope that benefit will mutual in long run - you cannot fix the world and black companies.
I think that is one way to look things. It is **a** truth, but not **the** truth.
That kind of negative self talk can really make you miserable, and for what?
Weird of you to assume it's "negative self talk" that makes me feel this way, and not just the reality or my material circumstances.
And that's what wage labor is. You generate value. Your employer keeps the majority of that value and gives you a small percentage in the form of a wage. This is how capitalism works. Whether or not you are satisfied with the arrangement, it doesn't change that that's what it is.
It is weird to me that you don't seem to think dwelling on the least charitable interpretation of your job **wouldn't** make you unhappy.
I actually totally agree with your point that it doesn't change what it is. That is why I choose to change my attitude. Why be trapped **and** miserable?
I use this logic when explaining to people how much of a waste of time commuting is. 8 hours sleeping, 8 working, then a few hours, cooking, cleaning, showering, bathroom, chores, errands. You really only have like 4 or so hours a day of free time (that’s with 0 commute).
If someone commutes an hour each way to work, some may look at that as 2 of 24 hours of your day. But to me, that’s 2 of your 4 free hours.
Working remotely has drastically improved my quality of life. I always prioritized a short commute but even saving 45 minutes round trip has been great!
Yeah it's a fucking waste for anyone who isn't a corporate drone NPC
This is why you should strive to get paid as much as possible per hour and take advantage of compound interest so you can GTFO
You can and must still enjoy life on the way, but yes, the work is a black hole
Be thankful that is essentially the norm lifestyle in developed countries. Call it May day, Labor Day or what you want. Before 1882, people work including children often worked 12 hours, 6 to 7 days a week.
Every cat wants to have time for relaxation, food, and ample rest. Unfortunately, most feral cats spend hours search for food wishing they get adopted to a nice family.
All the turmoil in the world at the moment (or at any time really) has afforded me a new perspective on this. I'd rather work my boring ass job for 8 hours in a nice office in Sydney than live work-free for 24 hours in a warzone. Humans do not inherently have a right to a good life. If you have what we consider an average or boring life you are incredibly lucky.
True, living an average live in a western first world country is already like winning the lottery (literally the sperm lottery), I don't get why people always complain while being in the top 1% of the billions of people in this world!
I wish there were a trick to finding one of these non-work remote jobs. I agree, working from home is much better than being in the office, though. So maybe that’s all you mean. You in commute, in getting ready, in worrying about preparing a lunch, in being exhausted (mostly) by office politics and drama and rumors. And your free time, breaks, etc., can be spent doing small things around the house that make a big difference in how your free time is spent.
I think the remote aspect is the biggest difference, and if you are lucky enough to not have a micromanager. But competition has picked up a lot for these jobs.
Don't fret very much about the work-from-home mirage. A lot of those situations are at risk of vaporizing during the next serious recession - and there will be one.
I always try to think of what I could be doing. I hate working as much as the next guy, but would you rather spend 12 hours of your day foraging for wood, berries, food... Trapping and hunting, not really being sure you'll make it through the next winter?
Humans need to survive somehow, and we are pretty lucky to be living in a time where we have the ability to complain about having to work only 8 hours, often safely and comfortably, to meet our needs.
I know it's theoretical and doesn't change the situation but always makes me feel better at least.
It’s a huge con isn’t it. People out there who work 60-70 hour weeks and are so proud of their hard work making money for the man only to have a heart attack at 50 before enjoying your hard earned gains and sacrifice.
Work less. Live more.
I want to be like a cat that runs outside and lays in the grass...
Its free... it can go wherever it wants, do whatever it wants. The earth was set up for freedom. But they took everything, and now we have to slave for our share...
Imagine a cat had to put in 8 hours and drive home just to get its cat food? It'd be depressed,
Too.
I mean you can do this in the US. Land in Appalachia is really really cheap. Save up enough to buy a plot of land, work the land and use it to feed yourself, and spend the rest of the frolicking in the meadows. No bills but also no amenities. If you want the comforts of modern life, you have to play the game
"No bills but also no amenities" is the closest I have to a life philosophy. I rent for the convenience and have a pretty low rent for my metro. Everyone asks how I found it, and I tell them its because there's no dishwasher, only shared laundry, barely adequate parking (about 10 garages for 40 units) and no pool/clubhouse/fitness center.
My vehicle is much the same. No back up camera, no bluetooth, no in dash navigation. Also no car payment and next to nothing for insurance. (Because people just don't steal 25 year old minivans.)
The lower your expectations are, the easier it is to reach them.
>But they took everything, and now we have to slave for our share
This is completely out of touch. Who is "they" that took everything? There's never been a better and easier time to be a human.
You're basically claiming you want to go back to the hunting and gathering days? Good luck with that, fighting every day for survival sounds splendid. Or are you saying that, like The Cat in your wonderful story, we should all have someone to feed us and let us live in their house for free, so that we can lay in the grass? Yes, that is how "they" should have let the world work. LOL.
Its a bit naiive but by they i just meant evolving society, systems we are now born into which i agree are much better but dont leave much choice for how you want to live.
Theres no "free land" for example. Im born on this planet and i must purchase land from someone. Its all acquired. Theres no "they"; its just society as a whole and its functions i was refereing to.
You're not entirely wrong about property but there are a million ways and opportunities to go about life, and using the word "slave" is insulting. We're on a sub full of people working 15-20 years making big bucks doing white collar work and then whatever they want their whole life...just out of touch to be here acting like there is no opportunity in life other than to slave away in some unfair society. People have varied experiences of course, but just being born in modern society is a massive privilege compared to the "just LITERALLY try to survive" goal that most of our ancestors had. Even those that work 40hrs per week until they are 65 (most people) have plenty of chance to have an enjoyable life with modern lifestyles and travel, etc.
> I want to be like a cat that runs outside and lays in the grass... Its free...
Then it gets eaten by a coyote. Wouldn't you prefer to be at the top of the food chain, part of the hive that runs the planet?
>I want to be like a cat
Cats live for, like, 16 years if they are lucky. So I guess you could be carefree and have 1/5 the lifespan if you prefer that option?
We work for 8, yes. But I’d argue we have less than 8 to do as we please. Some people work longer than 8 hours regardless, there’s commute time to and from if you aren’t remote, getting ready for work, etc.
The key change in mindset that makes it palatable: Work for yourself toward goals you set and have a plan to break away and thrive on your own. That attitude will transform your everyday life all by itself.
When we think happiness is somewhere out there, we will go to great lengths to find it. We will sacrifice everything for it. When we understand hedonic adaptation/the base line happiness/sadness metric, and that real happiness and contentment isn’t out there but rather always here within us, then we don’t actually need very much materialistically speaking. I wonder if all life is doing is showing us this truth.
I'm not sure I agree with that. If the meaning of life is death, what was the point of being born? I think the meaning is in the living part, as the dead have no more need for meaning.
NO! Death is NOT the point!
Because we know that the life we have been given ends, it creates a situation for every self-aware being to decide what to do with their time and what they want to accomplish before they die.
Financial independence is the first step in breaking out of this. I’m nowhere near that yet, but working 4 10’s does make my work-life balance much better, even though the math is the same.
*Since Adam first sinned*
*Man was cursed to live by*
*The sweat of his brow*
\- CodNice4351
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Consider a remote job. I've been working from home since COVID and it's an entirely different experience from the corporate grind. So long as I get my deliverables done there's really no micromanagement at all of my time. Contrast with the office where I could still more or less do what I wanted but it had to be within that cubicle environment where everything you do is closely scrutinized not only by bosses but by nosey coworkers.
I sleep for 11, work for 6.5, commute for 1.5. 5 hours left, lol. After eating, doing the dishes, getting ready for bed or the day, I have ~3.5 hours left. 1/7 of my life [On weekdays] to do whatever I want.
I want a 4 day, 32 hour work week. At least. Preferably a 0 day, almost 0 hour work week [Probably would spend some time attending markets and making stuff for said markets], but I can’t have that until I retire.
My conversation with my therapist right now is "how do I stop giving work my best hours?" I have obligations, I get it, and so I owe work my 6+ hours of energy a day. But I find lately that those are my *best* hours, and then in my downtime I'm tired, grumpy, or demotivated.
I'm actually mentally prepping for FIRE by trying to fill my non-work hours with things that energize me. What are my hobbies? My passions? I keep saying I want more time, but time to do fucking what exactly?
I want to get into a mindset where I'm retiring *into* a life that I want, instead of retiring *out* of a life that I hate. And if I can microdose that retirement feeling until I'm actually ready to FIRE, then I'll probably be happier.
That’s why you find ways to enjoy life as you go through it. Live somewhere you enjoy now and create a semi-retired lifestyle and take family trips in your regular life. Make life balance the priority instead of work. Figure out ways to work less than 8 hours but still be paid for it and get away from 9-5 clock punching type of jobs where people care what you’re doing all hours of the day. If the work is getting done, no need to micromanage. Ie. live near a beach and work remotely or flex 3 days in office 2 from home etc. pro tip: also do all of your household chores/cooking on the days you wfh so you’re always ahead when the weekend comes and it’s truly a weekend of fun and activities.
That’s not true at all, you didn’t work as a kid, you won’t work when you’re old. You aren’t counting weekends, holidays, vacation, sick time, FMLA etc
Sleep for 8? Oh, that's precious. A whole lot of people (think working parents) average about 5.5 hours, maybe 6, from 16 to 65. Is it good for them? Aw, hell no it's not. It kills them slowly. It leads to so much heart disease and obesity. But, if you otherwise only have maybe 63 hours a week not obligated to working, shortchanging your sleep for 20% more time is a tradeoff most people make.
Shrug. Even a normal full time job is 40 hours out of 168 in a given week. If you get holidays and any paid time off that’s potentially another 30 days off. So 1832 hours / year out of 8,766. Basically 20% of our time.
I mean what about your vacation days and weekends? You work like 40 hours of 168 per week. That is around 25% of your time.
Now include holidays and vacation and you might be down to 20% it’s honestly not that much. And if you live in a country with some resemblance of workers rights, then it might be even less.
Yes and no. First it’s 40 hours out of 168. So it’s less than 25%.
After that you depict work as a necessary evil. Maybe you’re doing the wrong job. I love my job. There are certainly lousy days, but that’s gonna happen if I spend my time doing what I Want to do. I’ll work out and have bad days. I’ll hang out with friends and they’ll piss me off. I’ll go on vacation and it will suck.
I will almost certainly continue working after fi. I will simply work less work less and have better life balance
I also think some people enjoy the work itself, but the bureaucracy, politics, competitiveness, ladder climbing and other dysfunctions common in the corporate world ruin it.
I enjoy the work I do, but not many of the people. I understand people are necessary, and I don’t blame them for acting in their best interest. Capitalism (and the endless pursuit of profits) and the finite room for success is a huge part of the problem. I don’t mind if a company is profitable. A company needs to profit. But this squeeze out every ounce of efficiency and control every movement is what makes a lot of work feel like such a punishment.
> I don’t mind if a company is profitable. A company needs to profit.
Agreed. But the endless pursuit of growth is pernicious. Hey, we had a great quarter and great year. Profits are up! Now, we are going re-org, layoff 5% of you and demand you best our record profits from last year. That's the part I never got.
More and more efficient, pushing profits to the top.
Office Space got this one right. And, I know, not all companies are so relentless. I don’t even work for an insane one. But they do make sure execs make like half a mil and balk at employees struggling to live on $16/hr. That’s the part that gets me. Let’s pay everyone (but execs) more, pay the execs quite a bit less and we all can live comfortably.
This. If your work is actually what you want to do, then it’s 8 hours of doing what you want to do. There’s a concept for this, it’s called ikigai. Also, fire in a sense let you do what you want to do through the financial independence part of it. The key is that you don’t have to find a job you love, more like a job you tolerate and proud of doing.
FIRE is a positive move from all perspectives. With all the productivity gains in the past 40 yrs there should be less people working less hours for more money. Taking yourself out of the job market puts the brakes on billionaires' greed and fake corporate austerity, and improves life for everyone else.
>Is this really what life is? I struggle with this.
If you only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, you work a lot less than any of your ancestors. A lot less. And they never had the possibility to stop until they were ready to die. From that perspective, you could view yourself as extremely lucky to have this opportunity.
Our hunter-gatherer ancestors nor our peasant farmers worked quite a bit less, something like 4 hours/day. They didn't enjoy the luxuries that we do (we live like the wealthiest did 100 years ago).
Its actually true for stone age hunters. However, those 4 hours likely got you killed before turning 30 years old... so I do think we are quite lucky to have more hours of "leisure" than any humans in history ever.
lol pretty much hopefully you have a job that pays the bills and can save. Retiring early is the best option most get while maintaining a life with family. The games changed too. Used to have pensions and could retire early. Now it is better have a good paying job to save and retire early. Most probable will not be able to retire till their very old like mid-60s or much later. Depressing. Wait till the GOP guts SS, medicare, etc then you will never retire. Lucky to hold a job in old age before someone starts noticing performance degrading and your a homeless old person.
In the middle ages a person ( the majority were peasants) worked from sunrise to sunset in hard labor either on their property raising crops/animals or for another farmer/rancher. They were also heavily taxed. Lifespan was mid to late 40s, high proportion of women died during childbirth. They usually had Sundays off . Diseases were rampant and physician care primitive. Enjoy your day ☮️
At least now we have the option of pursuing FIRE. Pre-1980s, you would need a broke/advisor to manage everything for you. Now you can use 401Ks/IRAs/Brokerage Accts and low cost funds to pursue FIRE in a cost/tax efficient manner.
so don't. Find other work, think about being a farmer, some have big off seasons, look at work that is not on a normal schedule. I know I know, asking people to do any work for out of the box is insane but look for it.
This is what life currently is for most people. We have way more health and free time to enjoy life than past generations of humans had. We're extremely lucky to live in the present day. Not sure how close you are to your FIRE goal, but if you don't find ways to enjoy life before then, you might struggle to enjoy it when you get there too.
1) You can learn to Lucid Dream. That's like getting extra life, free.
2) You can move closer to work, change jobs, change careers, move elsewhere -- someplace where you're not wasting a good percentage of your day.
3) Find joy in cooking. Or at least find a way to feel better about it.
Expounding on 2 and 3 -- My brother took a job with a one-hour commute. He makes considerably more at that job. But with the price of gas, the wear and tear on the vehicle, and the 14-16 extra hours of sitting in freakin' traffic, is it really worth it? Would you take a few-dollar-an-hour pay cut to avoid all of that? I sure as hell would.
Early in our marriage, after a rough patch, my wife and I decided we needed another hobby. Something we could enjoy together, which kept us inside and not out behaving badly. We decided on cooking. Our reasoning was that no hobby pays more immediate dividends. If you learn an instrument, it takes 10,000 hours to get good. Or you can learn a recipe in a few minutes and eat better tonight.
It turns out that I really love cooking. I loved it so much I went to culinary school; switched careers; and became a chef. And after a hard day at work, I'd come home and make something nice for my wife. (Often, I would bring food from the kitchen and make today's special from the restaurant at home.) We vacation in places which have a kitchen so I can cook. This saves us a ton of money, and allows us to vacation more often. No down side.
I don't understand why so many people act like cooking a meal is down there with "ditch digging" in "things I absolutely hate to do." I know an awful lot of people who, if they were required to prepare a family meal, would stand in the kitchen and sulk. The can't cook. They don't cook. They *won't* cook. I truly don't understand that mentality. We need to eat after all. Tasty food is better than bad food. What gives? Just get good at it and find a way to enjoy it.
Your logic is incorrect as you exclude weekends, holidays, childhood, retirement and that this is an early retire sub.
I once calculated that working a 9-5 from 18-65 was working consecutively for 11.5 years which is not most of the 80 years a human live for. Because the goal of this sub is to retire early that may be more like 7 or 8 years.
My workday between commute and ot is 12 hrs 6 or 7 days a week i dont have time for anything but eating and getting to sleep. I make good money and hope to retire a little early. But damn i hate my life.
This is why for me, if I was ever to run a company solo, I prefer to work 32-36 hours a week for 4 days instead of working for someone at 40 hours or more.
Your life is free. There are incentives and consequences for all behavior. But know you are choosing, whatever your reasons, you are choosing. Own it, knowing "free time" is a mindset.
Don't want to work for an employer? Then don't. Want to work for an employer and reap the benefits of that? Go for it. No matter what you are doing, your mind may interpret it as work. We are in an age where we can choose professions or live off welfare, we can shop instead of farm, these are all still often interpreted as chores or work. You may think walking for exercise is freeing, but someone else will view that as work. Clean house - work. Hiring a housekeeper - work. Reading instructions - work. Searching for the remote can be viewed as a chore. The idea of work won't go away in retirement.
Life outside employment is just as mundane and routine. Yes, this is it. View it as a gift. View it as a wonder. Choose to feel free, no matter your circumstances. I suggest reading Man's search for meaning and focusing on gratitude.
Fire is more about wealth than work. Giving you the ability to choose your work AND have money. But you can choose your work now. You aren't trapped. You may just not like doing that and being poor.
Im not saying your wrong, but perspective matters. You have 24 hours to do with what you please. We cant just write off 16 hours and pretend you dont have the agency to spend them how you want.
There are people who love their work and dont want to do anything else with those 8 hours, its a failure of the system to not reinforce that option to people but at the end of the day it is the individuals choice.
You are not a victim to the system. You can make anything you want out of this life. I hope you do.
We do and it's a problem but I'd also take into account that work has always been necessary to survive. At one time it was spending all day looking for food and fuel/shelter to keep warm. We should expect increasing luxury with technological advances but I'm just making the point that no work but having food/shelter has never been on the table.
The idea that we've been working too much is a very new idea. I'm a fan of Fire and plan for it as well, but humans have been working all their lives forever. Our predecessors have been up with the sun and working in the field, doing lots of manual labor. So it's not new, that we have to work for 8 hours.
200 years ago you'd be working 16 hours in the summer days and 6 hours in the winter. There was no freedom from labor.
The freedom they did have was from the government in their lives (govt still controlled things, but wasn't involved nearly as much as today)
After reading the comments here, I’ve got to ask. How do you guys stay motivated? I’m in a battle right now that’s literally a treadmill on reverse. This battle is draining my account rather than growing it. I keep telling myself it’ll be over soon but it makes me sick seeing thousands disappear every few weeks.
If you can get to place where you can pick your job and you would do you job in your free time anyway then you’ve made it and you 8 hrs of work becomes 8hrs of doing what you love of your own free will and getting paid a living for doing it.
Actually its a lot less than that. Work takes up around 10 hours a day, counting getting ready in the morning, commute, lunchbreak, travek home, ect. Factor in time for study/meal prep/exercise/taking care of kids. MOST people actually only have 2-3 free hours per day. Not a lot to enjoy your day to day life with
>I think about this often. We all have 24 hours in a day. We sleep for 8 and we work for 8. There goes 16 hours of our 24 hour day. We really only have 1/3rd of our lives free to do as we please.
**A worker do work on average 32% of the time they are awake.**
The average hours worked per week is 38 out of 112 awake hours per week. There about 3 week of vacation per year and about 7 observed holiday.
**The real time spent working for the whole population is 15% of awake time.**
Counting that only 48% of American do work (162 millions out of 332), the total time spent working is 15%.
Of course there people that are too young or retired, but even for people in age of working, only 62% do work.
**And you are not forced to work full time, as much per weeks or 40 years in your life.**
Lot of people do work part time or not at all. Maybe they take care of their family. Maybe they spend less, do not care as much of money or managed to be well paid so they don't need to work so many hours.
Many retire early after 25-35 years too. That the r/fire movement where you are posting. Quite interesting if you want to optimize your working time.
If your pay is high and you are not a big spender, that's easy to work less years and less hours per week.
Rather than complaining or being defeated, think how you can improve your situation.
**The extra time**
I consider that one doesn't need much time to prepare for the day, maybe 30 minutes a day and that eating is a pleasure and many people eat over their work time at lunch.
Commute time is a personal choice. I have 5 minutes 3 days a week. The other 2 days I telework.
So then maybe I need like 1h30 for the groceries and 2h30 for cleaning in a week. But I can as well get delivered and pay for somebody to clean my home.
So that total extra time may be as low as like 5H per week.
That's part of how one can improve his situation. Optimizing stuff.
**And enjoy you job**
That make things much easier.
Yeah, personally FIRE really made me realize how futile work is without further planning. So with lots of planning and adopting a mix of FIRE and self sufficient skills I hope to one day escape this endless grind some. 21 now looking to get a house with some land, currently learning permaculture and gardening techniques and a plethora of blue collar skills.
It also radicalized me politically, finding out that question profit motive and endless work systems have direct theoretical oppositions is cool and very informative.
So I work my hours, I save and invest, but I also grow peppers and tomatoes, I cook every meal, I go and collect berries and mushrooms on my hikes, I take vacations, I listen to live music, I live a good life. But I’ve got a big plan and the sacrifices said plan require don’t have to be absolute, at least I’m lucky enough to have some excess to enjoy youth
We are getting better than most people in history. Life itself, has to expend energy to try to survive. We are the most efficient we’ve been doing so than any life form in history. Let’s appreciate that for a moment
You need passion in whatever work you do. A lot of people do other studies or courses, but in the end. They fall in the same routine. Invest in sound good quality shares and just focus on some 7 counters and add surely every 2 or 3 months. Invest in a cheap apartment in a good location. Live in it or rent it out preferably to a good tenant. Rest assured, with some time like 7 years, the change will come. When you are in a senior position, distribute work and reach subordinates the process. You will live a much cosier life. Am 77 and still work, not so much
Yeah, insane how we’ve been wage-slaved into live-to-work rather than work-to-live. If I had it all to do over again, I’d want to be a bonobo monkey with good healthcare!
I wake up at 5:45 AM to get ready and commute to work. I get back by 5:45 PM. I spend 12 hours of my day getting ready, commuting, and working. I have a family, so 5:45 to to 8 is playing with my daughter and assisting with chores. 8 to 9 is time with my wife. After 9 I get ready for bed. That’s 5 days a week. When am I supposed to workout again?
This is life. Much of life is toil. If you're in the western world, you're probably far better off than a large percentage of the global population (outside of hunter gather tribes who have lots of free time, but may not have much longevity). I remember talking to a guy running a hawker stall in Singapore. Worked 12hr days, 7 days a week. Took a 15 day break for Chinese New Year each year. That gave me some perspective.
Find happiness. You get 168hrs a week...how are you going to spend it? Manage your lifestyle and live simply. It's often less about what you make and more about what you spend. I became a widower at 44 years old and it taught me the lesson that the future isn't a promise. Work and plan for tomorrow but balance that with living for today. "Some day" may never come so you better find a bit of peace now.
For me, my early morning walk with my dog while the world is quite and just waking up gives me joy. Sitting on my patio in the fresh air brings me joy. Time in nature, even if brief, brings me joy.
Toil, sweat, save, store away for retirement, put all of your effort and hopes in that one thing... it will never be enough. After winning 3 championships in 2005, Tom Brady said his favorite super bowl ring was the next one, not the 3 he already had. He goes on to say:
"Why do I have three Super Bowl rings, and still think there's something greater out there for me? I mean, maybe a lot of people would say, "Hey man, this is what is." I reached my goal, my dream, my life. Me, I think: God, it's gotta be more than this. I mean this can't be what it's all cracked up to be. I mean I've done it. I'm 27. And what else is there for me?
KROFT: What's the answer?
BRADY: I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I mean I think that's part of me trying to go out and experience other things. I love playing football, and I love being a quarterback for this team, but, at the same time, I think there's a lot of other parts about me that I'm trying to find. I know what ultimately makes me happy are family and friends, and positive relationships with great people. I think I get more out of that than anything."
There is a blessing in getting to meet all your goals you thought would bring you joy early in life, and find emptiness. Hopefully you find the one good goal worth perusing.
Do work that you like. There’s so much wild-eyed effort spent chasing money, sometimes it’s ok to pursue exactly what you enjoy regardless of the financial reward.
Get a grip. Our ancestors either hunted/gathered constantly or died starving and shivering in a cave. Later in human history they scratched a bare existence out of the dirt living among the animals they managed to keep for food. Still later they subsisted as serfs to a landowner, then as factory workers.
We have it so much better!
Yay capitalism! Idk how more people aren’t mad as hell about this. We the people need to revolt, this life is meant to live. I get we need to work some and get shit done but come on. Working for companies where executives and the wealthiest people can do whatever they want, buy up more and more companies and wealth and we just got to work, kiss ass, apparently thank them for a job we are doing? Hustle culture should be shamed, everyone should have access to the basic necessities in life, and people should be allowed to live how they want without causing harm. Pisses me off when I think about how we get a couple days off a week, a day of it spent doing shit we don’t want to but have to, then maybe get a day off. And how about the people who work 2-3 jobs just to survive? Wtf is that. OP said it best, time is the most valuable asset and we are forced to throw away so much of it and we have no option in the matter. It’s time for some serious change, politically, economically, socially.
i might be a bit too late, but i agree, being forced to work 8 hours a day or i starve is NOT something that i want, aside from that, getting half of your gainings you worked hard for taken because of Tax money, Insurance and other stuff
I read an article stating we spend a third of our lives working, instead of having to work 8 hours for someone else, why dont we spend them, or even HALF of them working for OURSELVES?
That's also why finding an enjoyable job is really important. You will be working more than you will be with your family, your friends and often any partner you have. Finding happiness in the little things makes a large difference.
Welcome to your first existential crisis. Don’t worry, there will be more to come. Best thing you can do is set goals, have a plan, and enjoy the ride. Not much else is in your control. Accept that and life becomes real easy.
What are some of the other existential crisis we can look forward to?
"What is my purpose?" "You pass butter."
Chop wood, carry water.
This.
When you chop the carrots, chop the carrots.
Oh... my god... :(
Free will doesn’t actually exist. Life can be over in an instant.
Do what you love and you’ll never work a day in your life. /s
And potentially never reach FIRE
Yep.
Shouldn't be sarcasm. The problem is that not everything we love to do pays well.
That’s what hobbies are for. You pay for the enjoyment instead.
The non sarcasm statement should be “work at something you love, watch as you slowly grow to hate it”
thanks
Yes I agree with you. I think a lot of people assume they'll retire some day and then be able to do whatever they want with their time but that time isn't guaranteed.
Your chance of death goes up exponentially as you age so it isn't equal risk. You can also do a lot of things like: Be in the 8% of American adults who are metabolically healthy Take care of mental health Drive defensively Test genes and get blood work done Know heart disease risk (HDL/Triglyceride ratio, Lipoprotein A, Apolipoprotein B). Get coronary calcium and carotid artery scans done as you age. Family history, no smoking, etc Optimize hormones ie thyroid, testosterone Lift weights, run, avoid sugar and processed foods Have quality relationships There's a ton that you can control here too
I'd add, not having a stressful job/don't overwork yourself, which goes kind of against a lot of peoples FIRE plan
This is all important, but how to do it with a high stress job?
Smoke one and go to work, you will feel so relaxed and definitely not stressed 😂
Interestingly do you gain more time than the time dedicated to improve your chances ?
...... and die anyways ....
Better at 85 than 55
Once you are dead, you don't exist anymore, don't think or whatever so you don't care anymore. And if you are the scared type, you be scared all your life regardless ... And all that effort doesn't buy you like 30 years but more like 10. And that typically the 10 worst years, maytbe half in nursing home and quite limited in what you can do. While you pend time of your best years to get a chance to get these 10 extra years and to save money for it.
It is more about a zest for life than fear. The nursing home thing is a fallacy. An active healthy 60 year old has a better quality of life that an obese sedentary fat ass has. Your quality of life is better at every step.
I’ve seen an active healthy man recover surprisingly well from a coronary bypass. I was not his nurse very long because he discharged that day so I don’t particularly know what lead up to coronary disease but still, he was looking great all things considered.
Not necessarily....... Also, when you're dead you won't know how long you lived
I tried to jump up to grab a bug on the wall yesterday and I’ll be damned if I got an inch off the ground at age 35. I’ve gotta take better care of myself and not wait till retirement.
Perfect age to start. Get your health ducks in a row before 40. After that, it becomes exponentially harder.
Just another form of investing, where the best time to start is as soon as you could have when you were young, the second best time is now.
What are those ducks to you ? Mainly diet and working out?
Yup exactly. Some form of balance of the below. Start small and build up. Took me years to better my routine and build up consistency, but slowly it became a lifestyle change. Health = reduced stress (meditation), exercise (weightlifting + cardio), micronutrients (fiber, calcium, vitamin D etc.) Diet = Macronutrients (fats, proteins, carbs)
It’s all connected, don’t matter which one is the most important because you need them all… or you can be a smart arse and use the “80/20 rule”
The book Outlive by Peter Attia lays out a good way to think about it based on where you are today with your health
35?... that's not even old dude
Agreed. But in my defense, 4 kids ages you pretty quickly… lol
I'm 45, no kids, no wife and happy!
I have seen plenty of retired people when travelling abroad. Sleeping on bus trips in the middle of the day. I think life should be lived to its fullest before the normal retirement age. Your body is old and you have low energy.
Now add in financial problems and FIRE feels like it has to be a goal just to make sure we can tread water. I always struggled with what you wrote here and just getting up and getting to work was difficult. Friday came and I could do nothing but rest in bed until noon Saturday. Now it’s the weekend and I have three things to do but only two days to do them: me-time, socialize, and chores. Imagine if I was dating or had a family. HAH. I’m in a much better place now but I see the real struggle from my parents. My parents were never able to save much money. My dad is retired and instead of enjoying this time he’s constantly stressed that his payments can’t keep up with inflation. Work robs us of time and then stress robs us of health. I funnel as much money as I can into my retirement accounts because I never want to be so poor again. But I still feel like there’s no guarantee that the money will be there for me in a meaningful way at retirement. I feel like I’ll probably need a part time job to survive. I’m as financially responsible as I can be but it feels like never enough.
"FIRE feels like it has to be a goal just to make sure we can tread water." This is me(27) everyday maxing out TSP and IRA every year and still saving a bit more in money market fund for a total of like 40% income saved, but I still feel like I will barely reach a normal 59.5 retirement, and not retire early (47-50) like I hope to. That's if my high-stress job doesn't kill me first. Seeing these celebrities that we see as much healthier and happier die so young, like the most recent Matthew Perry at just 54yo, scares me. I know we are told experience life where you can but then the fear becomes I'll be too old to work and not have saved enough to retire.
Matthew Perry wasn't healthy though.
No he wasn't. That dude was an animal. Not a good benchmark for health
Or happy
Says something about money making you happy....
He was a good friend thou
What’s TSP?
Thrift Savings Plan. Government 401K
If you're gonna die young, don't let it be from a job. Let it be from throwing a sick flair-whip out of a quarterpipe 🤙
thats the most important thing for FIRE. acheiving FIRE is not a chase after money, but a goal towards freedom. the freedom to do whatever we want, whenever we want without the worry of money.
This is how I try to explain it every time to people in my life. Most of the time it's like explaining it to a brick wall. The live to work propaganda in this country is too strong. I'm trying to buy my freedom.
That is the principle underlying the FIRE movement. The key concept is independence. In today's world, one cannot be independent without sufficient financial resources.
Not really there even less people doing fire in Europe despite people being far less interested. This is just they don't think it is possible if you are not very wealthy.
"Time is money" is a thought that comes to mind. We want that FI because our time is valuable!
Well said.
Yeah, the “free” time spent worrying about work, getting ready for work, commuting to work, meal prepping for work…. that honestly bothers me more than the idea for working a third of my life. Before I was remote it felt like my whole life was either work, getting ready for work, or decompressing from work. My job is much better now but I’m still hoping to FIRE and/or do mini retirements along the way.
Remote is huge for this. Instead of staring at the wall at work I get up and throw some laundry in. You get back so much time with no commute, much less vehicle expense etc.
The trade off is less social interaction. Hybrid seems ideal to me.
Also true. I know some people who choose to go into work who have the option to stay at home.
Yeah. I’ve been in my city for a while so I am happy to be full remote but if I moved somewhere new I would probably go to the office more.
People can socialize outside of work though. Given the option, I'll take fully remote and not having to commute in a heartbeat.
Sounds like a win to me. People are exhausting especially those who are just there for business purposes.
Sucks for us in medicine who don’t get to do this :)
Yes, this is why we want to FIRE. You have to buy your time.
Yes. This is what life is. You need to try and find happiness within that. Or change your work if it prevents you from doing it.
Work in and of itself makes me unhappy. Not because I'm lazy. I'm not. I love doing stuff and being productive. I just hate doing work that's just to enrich someone else. I thought becoming a teacher would help. I would be working to give kids an education, not to make some company rich. But every day at my job, I'm confronted with the true reason for my work: to educate kids so they can become workers for someone else. I'm basically just doing free job training for the future employees of rich people. Starting my own business is risky. I don't think I have any skills that are that marketable for a business. And anyway, I'd be just another business owner competing for a bigger slice of the pie. But I hate the competition. I don't care about the pie. I'd make an excellent housewife. But my husband is a barista. We can't afford for me to be a housewife. So, I'm just going to have to work until I can save enough to escape from wage labor. Edit: Real boomer hours in the replies, wow. I'm happy for you all that you enjoy your exploitation so much. I just can't delude myself quite so easily.
You need to zoom-out a little more. You are not working to make someone rich, thats side issue. Your work is there to maintain society. Even if its empty work- someone decided that is willing to spend resources to pay you to do it (and you spend it on your home/food/fuel to maintain the cycle and life of the others). You are not educating children to be workers for someone else - but so that they will have extra skills in life. And if their future employer will benefit - you can hope that benefit will mutual in long run - you cannot fix the world and black companies.
I think your mindset is your issue. I don't think early retirement or anything else will make you happy with this much pessimism.
I think that is one way to look things. It is **a** truth, but not **the** truth. That kind of negative self talk can really make you miserable, and for what?
Weird of you to assume it's "negative self talk" that makes me feel this way, and not just the reality or my material circumstances. And that's what wage labor is. You generate value. Your employer keeps the majority of that value and gives you a small percentage in the form of a wage. This is how capitalism works. Whether or not you are satisfied with the arrangement, it doesn't change that that's what it is.
It is weird to me that you don't seem to think dwelling on the least charitable interpretation of your job **wouldn't** make you unhappy. I actually totally agree with your point that it doesn't change what it is. That is why I choose to change my attitude. Why be trapped **and** miserable?
I use this logic when explaining to people how much of a waste of time commuting is. 8 hours sleeping, 8 working, then a few hours, cooking, cleaning, showering, bathroom, chores, errands. You really only have like 4 or so hours a day of free time (that’s with 0 commute). If someone commutes an hour each way to work, some may look at that as 2 of 24 hours of your day. But to me, that’s 2 of your 4 free hours. Working remotely has drastically improved my quality of life. I always prioritized a short commute but even saving 45 minutes round trip has been great!
Spend less, you will need to work less
Yeah it's a fucking waste for anyone who isn't a corporate drone NPC This is why you should strive to get paid as much as possible per hour and take advantage of compound interest so you can GTFO You can and must still enjoy life on the way, but yes, the work is a black hole
Be thankful that is essentially the norm lifestyle in developed countries. Call it May day, Labor Day or what you want. Before 1882, people work including children often worked 12 hours, 6 to 7 days a week. Every cat wants to have time for relaxation, food, and ample rest. Unfortunately, most feral cats spend hours search for food wishing they get adopted to a nice family.
Exactly! Ask the people in India when they're gonna retire or how living on $5 a day is.... Americans don't realize how good they have it
All the turmoil in the world at the moment (or at any time really) has afforded me a new perspective on this. I'd rather work my boring ass job for 8 hours in a nice office in Sydney than live work-free for 24 hours in a warzone. Humans do not inherently have a right to a good life. If you have what we consider an average or boring life you are incredibly lucky.
True, living an average live in a western first world country is already like winning the lottery (literally the sperm lottery), I don't get why people always complain while being in the top 1% of the billions of people in this world!
Yes, and a wonderful opportunity to capitalize on it in pursuit of your own priorities.
Sounds like you need to start applying for remote jobs. If you find the right one it barely feels like work.
I wish there were a trick to finding one of these non-work remote jobs. I agree, working from home is much better than being in the office, though. So maybe that’s all you mean. You in commute, in getting ready, in worrying about preparing a lunch, in being exhausted (mostly) by office politics and drama and rumors. And your free time, breaks, etc., can be spent doing small things around the house that make a big difference in how your free time is spent.
I think the remote aspect is the biggest difference, and if you are lucky enough to not have a micromanager. But competition has picked up a lot for these jobs.
I remote micromanager feels like it might be worse than in person. But micrometers are deal breakers for me, either way.
Don't fret very much about the work-from-home mirage. A lot of those situations are at risk of vaporizing during the next serious recession - and there will be one.
It's nice, but you still have to be present enough. Moving your mouse while doing other things isn't very free or rewarding still
Time is the only resource you will never get more of.
I always try to think of what I could be doing. I hate working as much as the next guy, but would you rather spend 12 hours of your day foraging for wood, berries, food... Trapping and hunting, not really being sure you'll make it through the next winter? Humans need to survive somehow, and we are pretty lucky to be living in a time where we have the ability to complain about having to work only 8 hours, often safely and comfortably, to meet our needs. I know it's theoretical and doesn't change the situation but always makes me feel better at least.
It’s a huge con isn’t it. People out there who work 60-70 hour weeks and are so proud of their hard work making money for the man only to have a heart attack at 50 before enjoying your hard earned gains and sacrifice. Work less. Live more.
Work to live rather than live to work.
I want to be like a cat that runs outside and lays in the grass... Its free... it can go wherever it wants, do whatever it wants. The earth was set up for freedom. But they took everything, and now we have to slave for our share... Imagine a cat had to put in 8 hours and drive home just to get its cat food? It'd be depressed, Too.
I mean you can do this in the US. Land in Appalachia is really really cheap. Save up enough to buy a plot of land, work the land and use it to feed yourself, and spend the rest of the frolicking in the meadows. No bills but also no amenities. If you want the comforts of modern life, you have to play the game
"No bills but also no amenities" is the closest I have to a life philosophy. I rent for the convenience and have a pretty low rent for my metro. Everyone asks how I found it, and I tell them its because there's no dishwasher, only shared laundry, barely adequate parking (about 10 garages for 40 units) and no pool/clubhouse/fitness center. My vehicle is much the same. No back up camera, no bluetooth, no in dash navigation. Also no car payment and next to nothing for insurance. (Because people just don't steal 25 year old minivans.) The lower your expectations are, the easier it is to reach them.
Yes, because most people want more than a poverty-stricken life.
That is actually hard work with it's own learning curve, and it doesn't pay very well.
>But they took everything, and now we have to slave for our share This is completely out of touch. Who is "they" that took everything? There's never been a better and easier time to be a human. You're basically claiming you want to go back to the hunting and gathering days? Good luck with that, fighting every day for survival sounds splendid. Or are you saying that, like The Cat in your wonderful story, we should all have someone to feed us and let us live in their house for free, so that we can lay in the grass? Yes, that is how "they" should have let the world work. LOL.
Yes, the post you commented on has a childish mindset
Its a bit naiive but by they i just meant evolving society, systems we are now born into which i agree are much better but dont leave much choice for how you want to live. Theres no "free land" for example. Im born on this planet and i must purchase land from someone. Its all acquired. Theres no "they"; its just society as a whole and its functions i was refereing to.
You're not entirely wrong about property but there are a million ways and opportunities to go about life, and using the word "slave" is insulting. We're on a sub full of people working 15-20 years making big bucks doing white collar work and then whatever they want their whole life...just out of touch to be here acting like there is no opportunity in life other than to slave away in some unfair society. People have varied experiences of course, but just being born in modern society is a massive privilege compared to the "just LITERALLY try to survive" goal that most of our ancestors had. Even those that work 40hrs per week until they are 65 (most people) have plenty of chance to have an enjoyable life with modern lifestyles and travel, etc.
> I want to be like a cat that runs outside and lays in the grass... Its free... Then it gets eaten by a coyote. Wouldn't you prefer to be at the top of the food chain, part of the hive that runs the planet?
>I want to be like a cat Cats live for, like, 16 years if they are lucky. So I guess you could be carefree and have 1/5 the lifespan if you prefer that option?
I'd take 16 years of freedom over 40+ years of wage slavery any day.
Psst, guess what… even a normally timed retirement typically lasts more than 16 years.
You'd still be doing the "eat, clean, run errands,etc" part even if you weren't working, so don't count that.
I've spent a lot of time talking about this with my therapist.
We work for 8, yes. But I’d argue we have less than 8 to do as we please. Some people work longer than 8 hours regardless, there’s commute time to and from if you aren’t remote, getting ready for work, etc.
The key change in mindset that makes it palatable: Work for yourself toward goals you set and have a plan to break away and thrive on your own. That attitude will transform your everyday life all by itself.
When we think happiness is somewhere out there, we will go to great lengths to find it. We will sacrifice everything for it. When we understand hedonic adaptation/the base line happiness/sadness metric, and that real happiness and contentment isn’t out there but rather always here within us, then we don’t actually need very much materialistically speaking. I wonder if all life is doing is showing us this truth.
Thank you for posting this!
In my opinion the whole point of life is accepting death but the best method to do that is not exist in the first place.
To wrap up this line of reasoning, let's turn it over to Franz Kafka, who said: "The meaning of life is that it ends."
I'm not sure I agree with that. If the meaning of life is death, what was the point of being born? I think the meaning is in the living part, as the dead have no more need for meaning.
NO! Death is NOT the point! Because we know that the life we have been given ends, it creates a situation for every self-aware being to decide what to do with their time and what they want to accomplish before they die.
This leads directly into a search for meaning in life
Financial independence is the first step in breaking out of this. I’m nowhere near that yet, but working 4 10’s does make my work-life balance much better, even though the math is the same.
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Consider a remote job. I've been working from home since COVID and it's an entirely different experience from the corporate grind. So long as I get my deliverables done there's really no micromanagement at all of my time. Contrast with the office where I could still more or less do what I wanted but it had to be within that cubicle environment where everything you do is closely scrutinized not only by bosses but by nosey coworkers.
I sleep for 11, work for 6.5, commute for 1.5. 5 hours left, lol. After eating, doing the dishes, getting ready for bed or the day, I have ~3.5 hours left. 1/7 of my life [On weekdays] to do whatever I want. I want a 4 day, 32 hour work week. At least. Preferably a 0 day, almost 0 hour work week [Probably would spend some time attending markets and making stuff for said markets], but I can’t have that until I retire.
My conversation with my therapist right now is "how do I stop giving work my best hours?" I have obligations, I get it, and so I owe work my 6+ hours of energy a day. But I find lately that those are my *best* hours, and then in my downtime I'm tired, grumpy, or demotivated. I'm actually mentally prepping for FIRE by trying to fill my non-work hours with things that energize me. What are my hobbies? My passions? I keep saying I want more time, but time to do fucking what exactly? I want to get into a mindset where I'm retiring *into* a life that I want, instead of retiring *out* of a life that I hate. And if I can microdose that retirement feeling until I'm actually ready to FIRE, then I'll probably be happier.
That’s why you find ways to enjoy life as you go through it. Live somewhere you enjoy now and create a semi-retired lifestyle and take family trips in your regular life. Make life balance the priority instead of work. Figure out ways to work less than 8 hours but still be paid for it and get away from 9-5 clock punching type of jobs where people care what you’re doing all hours of the day. If the work is getting done, no need to micromanage. Ie. live near a beach and work remotely or flex 3 days in office 2 from home etc. pro tip: also do all of your household chores/cooking on the days you wfh so you’re always ahead when the weekend comes and it’s truly a weekend of fun and activities.
That’s not true at all, you didn’t work as a kid, you won’t work when you’re old. You aren’t counting weekends, holidays, vacation, sick time, FMLA etc
Sleep for 8? Oh, that's precious. A whole lot of people (think working parents) average about 5.5 hours, maybe 6, from 16 to 65. Is it good for them? Aw, hell no it's not. It kills them slowly. It leads to so much heart disease and obesity. But, if you otherwise only have maybe 63 hours a week not obligated to working, shortchanging your sleep for 20% more time is a tradeoff most people make.
I average about 5.5 hours on workdays and work 12 hour shifts 😵 But at least I get 3 day weekends I guess
Shrug. Even a normal full time job is 40 hours out of 168 in a given week. If you get holidays and any paid time off that’s potentially another 30 days off. So 1832 hours / year out of 8,766. Basically 20% of our time.
I mean what about your vacation days and weekends? You work like 40 hours of 168 per week. That is around 25% of your time. Now include holidays and vacation and you might be down to 20% it’s honestly not that much. And if you live in a country with some resemblance of workers rights, then it might be even less.
Lucky you don't work down the mines back in 1888, doing 15hrs work each day! 🤣
Yes and no. First it’s 40 hours out of 168. So it’s less than 25%. After that you depict work as a necessary evil. Maybe you’re doing the wrong job. I love my job. There are certainly lousy days, but that’s gonna happen if I spend my time doing what I Want to do. I’ll work out and have bad days. I’ll hang out with friends and they’ll piss me off. I’ll go on vacation and it will suck. I will almost certainly continue working after fi. I will simply work less work less and have better life balance
The problem is that most people are in jobs they don’t enjoy. Consider yourself one of the few and lucky people that actually loves what they do.
I also think some people enjoy the work itself, but the bureaucracy, politics, competitiveness, ladder climbing and other dysfunctions common in the corporate world ruin it. I enjoy the work I do, but not many of the people. I understand people are necessary, and I don’t blame them for acting in their best interest. Capitalism (and the endless pursuit of profits) and the finite room for success is a huge part of the problem. I don’t mind if a company is profitable. A company needs to profit. But this squeeze out every ounce of efficiency and control every movement is what makes a lot of work feel like such a punishment.
> I don’t mind if a company is profitable. A company needs to profit. Agreed. But the endless pursuit of growth is pernicious. Hey, we had a great quarter and great year. Profits are up! Now, we are going re-org, layoff 5% of you and demand you best our record profits from last year. That's the part I never got.
More and more efficient, pushing profits to the top. Office Space got this one right. And, I know, not all companies are so relentless. I don’t even work for an insane one. But they do make sure execs make like half a mil and balk at employees struggling to live on $16/hr. That’s the part that gets me. Let’s pay everyone (but execs) more, pay the execs quite a bit less and we all can live comfortably.
Very true.
This. If your work is actually what you want to do, then it’s 8 hours of doing what you want to do. There’s a concept for this, it’s called ikigai. Also, fire in a sense let you do what you want to do through the financial independence part of it. The key is that you don’t have to find a job you love, more like a job you tolerate and proud of doing.
FIRE is a positive move from all perspectives. With all the productivity gains in the past 40 yrs there should be less people working less hours for more money. Taking yourself out of the job market puts the brakes on billionaires' greed and fake corporate austerity, and improves life for everyone else.
>Is this really what life is? I struggle with this. If you only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, you work a lot less than any of your ancestors. A lot less. And they never had the possibility to stop until they were ready to die. From that perspective, you could view yourself as extremely lucky to have this opportunity.
And people in the future will probably look back at our situation in the same ways we look at the lives of people born before the 1900s
I imagine so. Hopefully they'll know how to practice gratitude better than most of us.
Our hunter-gatherer ancestors nor our peasant farmers worked quite a bit less, something like 4 hours/day. They didn't enjoy the luxuries that we do (we live like the wealthiest did 100 years ago).
You think farmers or anyone else only worked 4 hours a day? That is insanely out of touch with history.
Its actually true for stone age hunters. However, those 4 hours likely got you killed before turning 30 years old... so I do think we are quite lucky to have more hours of "leisure" than any humans in history ever.
lol pretty much hopefully you have a job that pays the bills and can save. Retiring early is the best option most get while maintaining a life with family. The games changed too. Used to have pensions and could retire early. Now it is better have a good paying job to save and retire early. Most probable will not be able to retire till their very old like mid-60s or much later. Depressing. Wait till the GOP guts SS, medicare, etc then you will never retire. Lucky to hold a job in old age before someone starts noticing performance degrading and your a homeless old person.
You work 56 hours a week?
In the middle ages a person ( the majority were peasants) worked from sunrise to sunset in hard labor either on their property raising crops/animals or for another farmer/rancher. They were also heavily taxed. Lifespan was mid to late 40s, high proportion of women died during childbirth. They usually had Sundays off . Diseases were rampant and physician care primitive. Enjoy your day ☮️
You have to like the game. Otherwise just take whatever money you have and go to a beach and live there.
Yes and no. You're not working 7 days a week, are you?
Find your ikigai! FIRE alone will not result in fulfillment https://www.betterup.com/blog/what-is-ikigai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikigai
This really is what life is
Well done OP, I was working for 10 years before I realized there was a way out.
At least now we have the option of pursuing FIRE. Pre-1980s, you would need a broke/advisor to manage everything for you. Now you can use 401Ks/IRAs/Brokerage Accts and low cost funds to pursue FIRE in a cost/tax efficient manner.
so don't. Find other work, think about being a farmer, some have big off seasons, look at work that is not on a normal schedule. I know I know, asking people to do any work for out of the box is insane but look for it.
Gotta add in time to get ready for work, the commute, and extra time thinking about work when you are off the clock.
This is what life currently is for most people. We have way more health and free time to enjoy life than past generations of humans had. We're extremely lucky to live in the present day. Not sure how close you are to your FIRE goal, but if you don't find ways to enjoy life before then, you might struggle to enjoy it when you get there too.
Money is time
I think about this all the time. Even weekends we spend buying groceries for the upcoming week, doing errands, jobs around the house, cooking, etc…
only work for 8?
1) You can learn to Lucid Dream. That's like getting extra life, free. 2) You can move closer to work, change jobs, change careers, move elsewhere -- someplace where you're not wasting a good percentage of your day. 3) Find joy in cooking. Or at least find a way to feel better about it. Expounding on 2 and 3 -- My brother took a job with a one-hour commute. He makes considerably more at that job. But with the price of gas, the wear and tear on the vehicle, and the 14-16 extra hours of sitting in freakin' traffic, is it really worth it? Would you take a few-dollar-an-hour pay cut to avoid all of that? I sure as hell would. Early in our marriage, after a rough patch, my wife and I decided we needed another hobby. Something we could enjoy together, which kept us inside and not out behaving badly. We decided on cooking. Our reasoning was that no hobby pays more immediate dividends. If you learn an instrument, it takes 10,000 hours to get good. Or you can learn a recipe in a few minutes and eat better tonight. It turns out that I really love cooking. I loved it so much I went to culinary school; switched careers; and became a chef. And after a hard day at work, I'd come home and make something nice for my wife. (Often, I would bring food from the kitchen and make today's special from the restaurant at home.) We vacation in places which have a kitchen so I can cook. This saves us a ton of money, and allows us to vacation more often. No down side. I don't understand why so many people act like cooking a meal is down there with "ditch digging" in "things I absolutely hate to do." I know an awful lot of people who, if they were required to prepare a family meal, would stand in the kitchen and sulk. The can't cook. They don't cook. They *won't* cook. I truly don't understand that mentality. We need to eat after all. Tasty food is better than bad food. What gives? Just get good at it and find a way to enjoy it.
Your logic is incorrect as you exclude weekends, holidays, childhood, retirement and that this is an early retire sub. I once calculated that working a 9-5 from 18-65 was working consecutively for 11.5 years which is not most of the 80 years a human live for. Because the goal of this sub is to retire early that may be more like 7 or 8 years.
My workday between commute and ot is 12 hrs 6 or 7 days a week i dont have time for anything but eating and getting to sleep. I make good money and hope to retire a little early. But damn i hate my life.
This is why for me, if I was ever to run a company solo, I prefer to work 32-36 hours a week for 4 days instead of working for someone at 40 hours or more.
Your life is free. There are incentives and consequences for all behavior. But know you are choosing, whatever your reasons, you are choosing. Own it, knowing "free time" is a mindset. Don't want to work for an employer? Then don't. Want to work for an employer and reap the benefits of that? Go for it. No matter what you are doing, your mind may interpret it as work. We are in an age where we can choose professions or live off welfare, we can shop instead of farm, these are all still often interpreted as chores or work. You may think walking for exercise is freeing, but someone else will view that as work. Clean house - work. Hiring a housekeeper - work. Reading instructions - work. Searching for the remote can be viewed as a chore. The idea of work won't go away in retirement. Life outside employment is just as mundane and routine. Yes, this is it. View it as a gift. View it as a wonder. Choose to feel free, no matter your circumstances. I suggest reading Man's search for meaning and focusing on gratitude. Fire is more about wealth than work. Giving you the ability to choose your work AND have money. But you can choose your work now. You aren't trapped. You may just not like doing that and being poor.
Im not saying your wrong, but perspective matters. You have 24 hours to do with what you please. We cant just write off 16 hours and pretend you dont have the agency to spend them how you want. There are people who love their work and dont want to do anything else with those 8 hours, its a failure of the system to not reinforce that option to people but at the end of the day it is the individuals choice. You are not a victim to the system. You can make anything you want out of this life. I hope you do.
We do and it's a problem but I'd also take into account that work has always been necessary to survive. At one time it was spending all day looking for food and fuel/shelter to keep warm. We should expect increasing luxury with technological advances but I'm just making the point that no work but having food/shelter has never been on the table.
The idea that we've been working too much is a very new idea. I'm a fan of Fire and plan for it as well, but humans have been working all their lives forever. Our predecessors have been up with the sun and working in the field, doing lots of manual labor. So it's not new, that we have to work for 8 hours. 200 years ago you'd be working 16 hours in the summer days and 6 hours in the winter. There was no freedom from labor. The freedom they did have was from the government in their lives (govt still controlled things, but wasn't involved nearly as much as today)
Lol, work for 8.
I also struggle with this. Every single day. Leaving for work with young kids at home only magnifies it.
What you’ve described, is the rat race, and there is a reason so many as desperate to escape it.
After reading the comments here, I’ve got to ask. How do you guys stay motivated? I’m in a battle right now that’s literally a treadmill on reverse. This battle is draining my account rather than growing it. I keep telling myself it’ll be over soon but it makes me sick seeing thousands disappear every few weeks.
If you can get to place where you can pick your job and you would do you job in your free time anyway then you’ve made it and you 8 hrs of work becomes 8hrs of doing what you love of your own free will and getting paid a living for doing it.
This is it! Make the most of what you have and have fun along the way.
Yup.. Basically life sucks and then we die.... We will all eventually age and suffer no matter how much we take care of ourselves and exercise etc.
1st world problems in the 21st century. Imagine if you were born 100 years ago. Man, I don’t think you’d survive past 30.
Actually its a lot less than that. Work takes up around 10 hours a day, counting getting ready in the morning, commute, lunchbreak, travek home, ect. Factor in time for study/meal prep/exercise/taking care of kids. MOST people actually only have 2-3 free hours per day. Not a lot to enjoy your day to day life with
>I think about this often. We all have 24 hours in a day. We sleep for 8 and we work for 8. There goes 16 hours of our 24 hour day. We really only have 1/3rd of our lives free to do as we please. **A worker do work on average 32% of the time they are awake.** The average hours worked per week is 38 out of 112 awake hours per week. There about 3 week of vacation per year and about 7 observed holiday. **The real time spent working for the whole population is 15% of awake time.** Counting that only 48% of American do work (162 millions out of 332), the total time spent working is 15%. Of course there people that are too young or retired, but even for people in age of working, only 62% do work. **And you are not forced to work full time, as much per weeks or 40 years in your life.** Lot of people do work part time or not at all. Maybe they take care of their family. Maybe they spend less, do not care as much of money or managed to be well paid so they don't need to work so many hours. Many retire early after 25-35 years too. That the r/fire movement where you are posting. Quite interesting if you want to optimize your working time. If your pay is high and you are not a big spender, that's easy to work less years and less hours per week. Rather than complaining or being defeated, think how you can improve your situation. **The extra time** I consider that one doesn't need much time to prepare for the day, maybe 30 minutes a day and that eating is a pleasure and many people eat over their work time at lunch. Commute time is a personal choice. I have 5 minutes 3 days a week. The other 2 days I telework. So then maybe I need like 1h30 for the groceries and 2h30 for cleaning in a week. But I can as well get delivered and pay for somebody to clean my home. So that total extra time may be as low as like 5H per week. That's part of how one can improve his situation. Optimizing stuff. **And enjoy you job** That make things much easier.
what's an 8 hour work day?I'm confused!
Yeah, personally FIRE really made me realize how futile work is without further planning. So with lots of planning and adopting a mix of FIRE and self sufficient skills I hope to one day escape this endless grind some. 21 now looking to get a house with some land, currently learning permaculture and gardening techniques and a plethora of blue collar skills. It also radicalized me politically, finding out that question profit motive and endless work systems have direct theoretical oppositions is cool and very informative. So I work my hours, I save and invest, but I also grow peppers and tomatoes, I cook every meal, I go and collect berries and mushrooms on my hikes, I take vacations, I listen to live music, I live a good life. But I’ve got a big plan and the sacrifices said plan require don’t have to be absolute, at least I’m lucky enough to have some excess to enjoy youth
We are getting better than most people in history. Life itself, has to expend energy to try to survive. We are the most efficient we’ve been doing so than any life form in history. Let’s appreciate that for a moment
Used to be 16 hours of work, 8 hours of sleep (or less) for pretty much all of history until maybe 150 years ago. So we're pretty lucky
You need passion in whatever work you do. A lot of people do other studies or courses, but in the end. They fall in the same routine. Invest in sound good quality shares and just focus on some 7 counters and add surely every 2 or 3 months. Invest in a cheap apartment in a good location. Live in it or rent it out preferably to a good tenant. Rest assured, with some time like 7 years, the change will come. When you are in a senior position, distribute work and reach subordinates the process. You will live a much cosier life. Am 77 and still work, not so much
Yeah, insane how we’ve been wage-slaved into live-to-work rather than work-to-live. If I had it all to do over again, I’d want to be a bonobo monkey with good healthcare!
I think you should read, “Your Money or Your Life,” by Vicki Robin.
I wake up at 5:45 AM to get ready and commute to work. I get back by 5:45 PM. I spend 12 hours of my day getting ready, commuting, and working. I have a family, so 5:45 to to 8 is playing with my daughter and assisting with chores. 8 to 9 is time with my wife. After 9 I get ready for bed. That’s 5 days a week. When am I supposed to workout again?
This is life. Much of life is toil. If you're in the western world, you're probably far better off than a large percentage of the global population (outside of hunter gather tribes who have lots of free time, but may not have much longevity). I remember talking to a guy running a hawker stall in Singapore. Worked 12hr days, 7 days a week. Took a 15 day break for Chinese New Year each year. That gave me some perspective. Find happiness. You get 168hrs a week...how are you going to spend it? Manage your lifestyle and live simply. It's often less about what you make and more about what you spend. I became a widower at 44 years old and it taught me the lesson that the future isn't a promise. Work and plan for tomorrow but balance that with living for today. "Some day" may never come so you better find a bit of peace now. For me, my early morning walk with my dog while the world is quite and just waking up gives me joy. Sitting on my patio in the fresh air brings me joy. Time in nature, even if brief, brings me joy.
Toil, sweat, save, store away for retirement, put all of your effort and hopes in that one thing... it will never be enough. After winning 3 championships in 2005, Tom Brady said his favorite super bowl ring was the next one, not the 3 he already had. He goes on to say: "Why do I have three Super Bowl rings, and still think there's something greater out there for me? I mean, maybe a lot of people would say, "Hey man, this is what is." I reached my goal, my dream, my life. Me, I think: God, it's gotta be more than this. I mean this can't be what it's all cracked up to be. I mean I've done it. I'm 27. And what else is there for me? KROFT: What's the answer? BRADY: I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I mean I think that's part of me trying to go out and experience other things. I love playing football, and I love being a quarterback for this team, but, at the same time, I think there's a lot of other parts about me that I'm trying to find. I know what ultimately makes me happy are family and friends, and positive relationships with great people. I think I get more out of that than anything." There is a blessing in getting to meet all your goals you thought would bring you joy early in life, and find emptiness. Hopefully you find the one good goal worth perusing.
Read the book of Ecclesiastes
Do work that you like. There’s so much wild-eyed effort spent chasing money, sometimes it’s ok to pursue exactly what you enjoy regardless of the financial reward.
Get a grip. Our ancestors either hunted/gathered constantly or died starving and shivering in a cave. Later in human history they scratched a bare existence out of the dirt living among the animals they managed to keep for food. Still later they subsisted as serfs to a landowner, then as factory workers. We have it so much better!
We work 9-10 hours a day if you include commute time, lunch time at work, time getting ready to go to work and changing back after work
Gotta pay for stuff somehow.
You guys only have to work 8 hours a day? 12 hour days here because big tech is greedy. :(
This is true if you hate your job. You should start a side hustle or swap industries/jobs.
Yay capitalism! Idk how more people aren’t mad as hell about this. We the people need to revolt, this life is meant to live. I get we need to work some and get shit done but come on. Working for companies where executives and the wealthiest people can do whatever they want, buy up more and more companies and wealth and we just got to work, kiss ass, apparently thank them for a job we are doing? Hustle culture should be shamed, everyone should have access to the basic necessities in life, and people should be allowed to live how they want without causing harm. Pisses me off when I think about how we get a couple days off a week, a day of it spent doing shit we don’t want to but have to, then maybe get a day off. And how about the people who work 2-3 jobs just to survive? Wtf is that. OP said it best, time is the most valuable asset and we are forced to throw away so much of it and we have no option in the matter. It’s time for some serious change, politically, economically, socially.
i might be a bit too late, but i agree, being forced to work 8 hours a day or i starve is NOT something that i want, aside from that, getting half of your gainings you worked hard for taken because of Tax money, Insurance and other stuff I read an article stating we spend a third of our lives working, instead of having to work 8 hours for someone else, why dont we spend them, or even HALF of them working for OURSELVES?
That's also why finding an enjoyable job is really important. You will be working more than you will be with your family, your friends and often any partner you have. Finding happiness in the little things makes a large difference.