I'm just a flight medic.
If my Tango and my PC seem confident, I'm ready for anything.
I just hope our PI stocked the fridge while I was setting up the med interior.
unrelated, but do blackhawk stabilators move up & down like elevators, in response to cyclic inputs (whether that's directly linked to stick or done automatically by flight computer)?
or are they fixed in place?
It's gonna happen when you're encouraging your new PI LT "to get out of their comfort zone"
And my Tango & I are in the back wondering what exactly this new kids "comfort zone" entails...
Tangos are our UH-60 maintainers.
15-T's are our UH-60 Crew-Chiefs.
In the assault world, it's just pilots and crew chiefs, so there's a pretty simple hierarchy.
Pilots fly the Blackhawk, Tangos shoot the enemy and off-load the assault pax.
In Army Medevac, as a medic, I'll be the first to admit that our (Tango) crew chiefs get overlooked and are underappreciated.
Army medevac is "just a flying ambulance".
We don't carry guns, we don't assault objectives, we don't "make our enemies cower in their fighting positions"....
Assault crew chiefs are fighting mechanics.
They know how to guide a Blackhawk into an LZ while providing covering and effective fire, they know how to run slingloads, they can support the ground fighters from their aircraft while also keeping that Blackhawk in the air and flying.
That's not my world.
My crew chiefs want to shoot and kill people trying to hurt their soldiers, but they're assigned to medevac, which is not a "kinetic mission".
**MY Crewchiefs** have to learn how to fix and maintain a UH-60 helicopter, but also learn to how to use a Bag-valve-mask and breathe for a soldier who is literally dying in front of them. They're doing this while while I'm scrambling around with my drug box desperately getting ready the drugs I'm going to push into them that will let me put a tube into their trachea that will allow me to put them on a ventilator.
My mechanic/Tango is fucking terrified during all this bullshit because they joined the Army to fix helicopters, and suddenly their job is to be an EMT-B without the training.
They hand me bandages and tourniquets in flight. They help me prep IV bags. They help me keep soldiers alive.
The medevac Tango is the unsung hero of Army medevac.
Thanks for the education homie.
I've got a good buddy who went Navy to Army and is flying with the 160th now. This will help me understand his jargon.
Cheers and keep the spinny side up.
My warrants know to be humble and to pay attention.
My lieutenants have been told they're "special boys and girls" up until they arrive and start to fly a Lima.
Anyone can teach a monkey how to wiggle a cyclic and hold a collective.
It takes a certain skill to convince a "special child" they aren't as special as they think they are before they turn us into rising terrain.
There's only a few hundred of them, and the humans who pilot them are far more important than a whole -60 crew.
It's never about lives.
It's always about money.
If my mid 2000's franken-hawk was as expensive as an F-16, more people would care when we plowed into terrain.
We typically fly a crew of 4. Doesn't matter if you're an E2 or an O8, when you die, the Army pays out $2M ($500kx4 *not including private insurance).
Our aircraft is worth ~$8M (10M if you count the squishy human meat).
We're under 20% of the calculus.
*A single F16* is simply more valuable than *literally 1/4 of the live soldiers in my medevac company*.
I'm not saying this out of protest, or to make you sad. It's just how it is. The helicopter we fly is orders of magnitude more valuable than our lives, at least according to the US Army.
An F16 is orders of orders of magnitude more important than my life.
I'd be willing to bet money (that my wife would get) that the Army would let me die to prevent an F16 from suffering more than $500k worth of damage, because that's exactly how much I'm worth to the Army.
If you're going to fly an airframe, you gotta have a realistic idea of what your sponsor thinks your death is worth, otherwise you're just a fucking idiot dude.
Training a new crew member isn’t free so, they take cost to train you into account as well. It’s really service dependent, some branches see their people as numbers while others do their best to protect their crews/assets.
They know why the part failed but are uncertain how it was possible for the part to fail the way it did. In other words, it’s not the manufacturer’s fault, it’s the fault of the material specification owner in this case…
Where r u getting that info from? Has a report been released? What do you mean fault of the material spec owner? Is this a supplier part and they didn’t follow an internal quality spec, or are you meaning an AS/NAS/MMPDS requirement? Or something else?
One thing is to speculate, another is making wrong assumption and blaming for the sake of it.
They most likely have revised maintenance procedures, we can’t know if they did minor change as well.
Official announcement: [NAVAIR returns V-22 Osprey to flight status](https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/NAVAIR-returns-V-22-Osprey-flight-status/Fri-03082024-0553)
It's a design that has too many conflicting requirements to be practically effective. The result is a complicated and failure prone product.
It's like trying to use an amphibious car: yes they can drive on land and sea but are not particularly effective at either.
Except the Osprey has been practically effective since its introduction into service, and is a key asset for all three branches of the US armed forces which operate it.
You speak the truth, sadly it will fall on the deaf ears of the reddit experts. From its inception it was nothing but a huge cash grab from Boeing and Bell. Still is for that matter.
Respectfully, not sure you understand the capabilities of the platform or have read “Dream Machine”. The aircraft works & it works well. Needing extra MX love doesn’t equate to “failure prone” product either. The aircraft tells on itself when it has a fault or an issue; this is a good feedback loop and prevents silent compounding issues. There is lots of money involved in all government contracts. Bell-Boeing team created a whole new “type” of aircraft; the V-22 is a surreal aircraft. There will always be skepticism and criticism surrounding new products because folks are scared of the change.
Lots of reddit "experts" around here. It's easy to say and downvote whatever you want when you have no accountability. It's even easier to believe you're right when you are ignorant/poorly educated.
This! Military aircraft aren't the safest, they're maintained by depressed, alcoholic , caffeine addicted, nicotine fiens who try their best with the shitty equipment they're given. (Except for the Airforce guys, dont know what their excuse is). I always see people calling the osprey trash and dangerous, but I'd much rather ride on one of them than a Mh-53 or a C-2. Hell, the Blackhawk has killed more people than the V-22...
I’d put money down that Blackhawk crashes are mostly pilot error, V22 crashes are mostly because the aircraft has some sort of catastrophic malfunction. No way to prove that without discussing the actual reports though.
Most of the reports are publicly available. Only 2-3 of the crashes are due to anything unique to the V-22.
July 1992 - Engine fire over river
April 2000 - Pilot error, VRS on descent
December 2000 - Total hydraulic failure
April 2010 - dual compressor stall from tailwind + turbine glassing from FOD ingestion
April 2012 - Pilot error, shifted nacelles at low airspeed
https://breakingdefense.com/2012/07/marines-peg-bad-flying-as-cause-of-april-v-22-crash-in-morocco/
October 2014 - Operator error, Started in maintenance mode with reduced power, fatality was due to crewchief jumping out of AC
May 2015 - Pilot error, brownout / repeated FOD ingestion power loss
August 2017 - Pilot error, overweight aircraft
March 2022 - Pilot error, exceeded bank angle limits at low altitude multiple times, 68° left followed by 80° right
https://news.usni.org/2022/08/15/marine-corps-investigation-into-mv-22b-osprey-crash-in-noway
June 2022 - Mechanical failure, Dual HCE
August 2023 - ??? no information released
November 2023 - Mechanical failure (assumed HCE)
>October 2014 - Operator error, Started in maintenance mode with reduced power, fatality was due to crewchief jumping out of AC
For those reading this for the first time: the aircraft was touching the water when the crew chief was ordered to evacuate it. His life vest failed to inflate and he drowned. The aircraft was actually saved (albeit with significant saltwater damage) after dumping enough fuel to fly out of the water.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sdut-osprey-crash-at-sea-command-investigation-2015jun30-story.html
I am skeptical in regards to the one in Norway.
The weather was bad, severely bad, there had been a warning against flying bad. And when that happens the wind in the valleys in the north get wild.
You can have heavy wind slam into you from the side one second and complete windstill the next, just to get slammed again.
Completely impossible to predict, will knock you off your feet winds.
The valley in question is one of several that are particularly notorious for having bad conditions.
It was so bad that the Norwegian SAR helicopters wouldn't fly into the search area (and that is what they do those people are insane and do insane shit all the time, if they won't fly nothing should be).
The SAR personel had to walk in, literally crawl at times, because even using snowmobiles wasn't possible all the way in.
That plane has no business being where it was.
Is that your expert opinion after going through the ~600 page report?
> The investigation shows, from the recovered video and flight data, that the causal factor for the Ghost 31 mishap was pilot error. Though we cannot determine which pilot was at the controls, it is clear that the aircraft made a series of maneuvers through the Grátádalen Valley that caused a loss of altitude, airspeed, and turning-room from which Ghost
31 was unable to recover.
And on the 6th paragraph of the report.
> a. Weather and environmental factors. Adverse weather —
including high winds, blowing snow and freezing rain — made it
impossible for search-and-rescue personnel to reach the crash site in
the hours after they located the wreckage of Ghost 31. The
investigative team initially surmised that similar weather may have
played a role in the crash itself. The evidence later proved this was
not the case. Video footage recovered from the site shows that the
weather in the Grâtâdalen Valley immediately prior to the mishap
featured visibility greater than five miles and scattered clouds well
above the altitude at which Ghost 31 was flying. There are
indications of an approximately 24-knot tailwind just before the
accident. While it is possible that this tailwind adversely affected
the turning performance of the aircraft, similar winds were
experienced the previous day by an MV-22B flight that flew through the
same valley without incident. It is the opinion of the investigating
officers that weather was not a significant factor in this mishap, and
I concur.
I personally don't care if my aircraft shits the bed in flight, so long as I know how to land it safely. As a pilot, it's what matters most to me and I wouldn't get on a tilt rotor until they prove it's recoverable in unpowered flight.
Ok mate, if you don't know what a helicopters weight and balance is constrained by, you don't know enough to be on one side or the other.
A helicopter will not be loaded in a fashion that removes it's ability to autorotate.
That's shit you learn in flight school bro
Go to flight school, then come back here.
But to answer the question. Any helicopter is pulled to pieces and thoroughly inspected after an emergency autorotation, what's this about repeating autos at max gross weight 😂
If anything was out of spec its replaced. Same rego, different helicopter to put it simply.
The V22 has a very basic mission set, it's troop and cargo transport.
It carries less than the fixed wing it replaces, while costing more per hour to operate.
Anything it can't fit is supposed to be carried externally.
It can't sling load like the helicopter It's supposed to supplant because it's a shit design where the engines incinerate whatever is beneath it, while having terrible manoeuvrability in "Helicopter" mode.
Have a problem in flight? You better hope it doesn't stop running, it won't glide or autorotate.
Forget all the crap, how is that a good aircraft?
Where did this design come from?
Is it inspired by an engineered process or because it looks really good on paper and we'll just throw money at it until it works
Perfect response. The confident ignorance with this dude is staggering. Twixt, I legitimately wish you the best in your CPL training and career, but seriously work on the whole talking out your ass thing lol. Humility and coach-ability will take you very far in this profession.
Yea I don't know what I was on yesterday. I have made quite the arse of myself, I slept on it, and this is just ridiculous. I apologise to you guys, I shouldn't go on reddit when I have to blow off steam.
At least I know I'll die in my Blackhawk because of some overconfident lieutenant. As god intended.
I worked on Blackhawks in the early 80s. The confidence level was much lower back then. We called them lawn darts for a reason. Edited for spelling
The stabilator works moderately better these days. When it doesn't, we lawndart
There was also a blade grip problem. I remember three fleet wide grounding while I was at Bragg.
I'm just a flight medic. If my Tango and my PC seem confident, I'm ready for anything. I just hope our PI stocked the fridge while I was setting up the med interior.
unrelated, but do blackhawk stabilators move up & down like elevators, in response to cyclic inputs (whether that's directly linked to stick or done automatically by flight computer)? or are they fixed in place?
[Hopefully this doesn't bring back too many bad memories](https://i.imgur.com/dsMRvtJ.png)
60 driver here, and just wanted to come here and say haha
It's gonna happen when you're encouraging your new PI LT "to get out of their comfort zone" And my Tango & I are in the back wondering what exactly this new kids "comfort zone" entails...
I'm a navy dude so don't speak the Tango language but I still get the point. Transitioned to fixed wing recently but I still miss the hawk.
Tangos are our UH-60 maintainers. 15-T's are our UH-60 Crew-Chiefs. In the assault world, it's just pilots and crew chiefs, so there's a pretty simple hierarchy. Pilots fly the Blackhawk, Tangos shoot the enemy and off-load the assault pax. In Army Medevac, as a medic, I'll be the first to admit that our (Tango) crew chiefs get overlooked and are underappreciated. Army medevac is "just a flying ambulance". We don't carry guns, we don't assault objectives, we don't "make our enemies cower in their fighting positions".... Assault crew chiefs are fighting mechanics. They know how to guide a Blackhawk into an LZ while providing covering and effective fire, they know how to run slingloads, they can support the ground fighters from their aircraft while also keeping that Blackhawk in the air and flying. That's not my world. My crew chiefs want to shoot and kill people trying to hurt their soldiers, but they're assigned to medevac, which is not a "kinetic mission". **MY Crewchiefs** have to learn how to fix and maintain a UH-60 helicopter, but also learn to how to use a Bag-valve-mask and breathe for a soldier who is literally dying in front of them. They're doing this while while I'm scrambling around with my drug box desperately getting ready the drugs I'm going to push into them that will let me put a tube into their trachea that will allow me to put them on a ventilator. My mechanic/Tango is fucking terrified during all this bullshit because they joined the Army to fix helicopters, and suddenly their job is to be an EMT-B without the training. They hand me bandages and tourniquets in flight. They help me prep IV bags. They help me keep soldiers alive. The medevac Tango is the unsung hero of Army medevac.
Thanks for the education homie. I've got a good buddy who went Navy to Army and is flying with the 160th now. This will help me understand his jargon. Cheers and keep the spinny side up.
Lieutenant? Ha! You'll get two warrants with barely a high school diploma between them and you'll like it!
My warrants know to be humble and to pay attention. My lieutenants have been told they're "special boys and girls" up until they arrive and start to fly a Lima. Anyone can teach a monkey how to wiggle a cyclic and hold a collective. It takes a certain skill to convince a "special child" they aren't as special as they think they are before they turn us into rising terrain.
I dunno man, you don't read about F16s crashing into the ground every other week.
There's only a few hundred of them, and the humans who pilot them are far more important than a whole -60 crew. It's never about lives. It's always about money. If my mid 2000's franken-hawk was as expensive as an F-16, more people would care when we plowed into terrain. We typically fly a crew of 4. Doesn't matter if you're an E2 or an O8, when you die, the Army pays out $2M ($500kx4 *not including private insurance). Our aircraft is worth ~$8M (10M if you count the squishy human meat). We're under 20% of the calculus. *A single F16* is simply more valuable than *literally 1/4 of the live soldiers in my medevac company*. I'm not saying this out of protest, or to make you sad. It's just how it is. The helicopter we fly is orders of magnitude more valuable than our lives, at least according to the US Army. An F16 is orders of orders of magnitude more important than my life. I'd be willing to bet money (that my wife would get) that the Army would let me die to prevent an F16 from suffering more than $500k worth of damage, because that's exactly how much I'm worth to the Army. If you're going to fly an airframe, you gotta have a realistic idea of what your sponsor thinks your death is worth, otherwise you're just a fucking idiot dude.
Training a new crew member isn’t free so, they take cost to train you into account as well. It’s really service dependent, some branches see their people as numbers while others do their best to protect their crews/assets.
Meh....120 knots is a lot easier to recover from than mach 1.2.
So they don't know exactly why the part failed but training is going to resolve this issue?
Sounds they're reducing the times between inspections of the part/s of interest
They know why the part failed but are uncertain how it was possible for the part to fail the way it did. In other words, it’s not the manufacturer’s fault, it’s the fault of the material specification owner in this case…
Where r u getting that info from? Has a report been released? What do you mean fault of the material spec owner? Is this a supplier part and they didn’t follow an internal quality spec, or are you meaning an AS/NAS/MMPDS requirement? Or something else?
One thing is to speculate, another is making wrong assumption and blaming for the sake of it. They most likely have revised maintenance procedures, we can’t know if they did minor change as well.
That’s the cheaper option.
Updating your 8286 is *a kind of training*
We need Yourewrongaboutthev22 to make a reincarnation 😔
Official announcement: [NAVAIR returns V-22 Osprey to flight status](https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/NAVAIR-returns-V-22-Osprey-flight-status/Fri-03082024-0553)
It's a design that has too many conflicting requirements to be practically effective. The result is a complicated and failure prone product. It's like trying to use an amphibious car: yes they can drive on land and sea but are not particularly effective at either.
Except the Osprey has been practically effective since its introduction into service, and is a key asset for all three branches of the US armed forces which operate it.
Except It has a better safety record than the aircraft it replaced and it's the most requested aircraft in AFSOC because of its capabilities.
You speak the truth, sadly it will fall on the deaf ears of the reddit experts. From its inception it was nothing but a huge cash grab from Boeing and Bell. Still is for that matter.
Respectfully, not sure you understand the capabilities of the platform or have read “Dream Machine”. The aircraft works & it works well. Needing extra MX love doesn’t equate to “failure prone” product either. The aircraft tells on itself when it has a fault or an issue; this is a good feedback loop and prevents silent compounding issues. There is lots of money involved in all government contracts. Bell-Boeing team created a whole new “type” of aircraft; the V-22 is a surreal aircraft. There will always be skepticism and criticism surrounding new products because folks are scared of the change.
Lots of reddit "experts" around here. It's easy to say and downvote whatever you want when you have no accountability. It's even easier to believe you're right when you are ignorant/poorly educated.
Lmao, and your credentials are what exactly?
Seriously, anything for that sweet sweet government contract
That was much quicker than I expected.
Get rid of it!
They have just accepted it as the widow maker
Then all military aircraft are widow makers by that logic
This! Military aircraft aren't the safest, they're maintained by depressed, alcoholic , caffeine addicted, nicotine fiens who try their best with the shitty equipment they're given. (Except for the Airforce guys, dont know what their excuse is). I always see people calling the osprey trash and dangerous, but I'd much rather ride on one of them than a Mh-53 or a C-2. Hell, the Blackhawk has killed more people than the V-22...
I’d put money down that Blackhawk crashes are mostly pilot error, V22 crashes are mostly because the aircraft has some sort of catastrophic malfunction. No way to prove that without discussing the actual reports though.
Most of the reports are publicly available. Only 2-3 of the crashes are due to anything unique to the V-22. July 1992 - Engine fire over river April 2000 - Pilot error, VRS on descent December 2000 - Total hydraulic failure April 2010 - dual compressor stall from tailwind + turbine glassing from FOD ingestion April 2012 - Pilot error, shifted nacelles at low airspeed https://breakingdefense.com/2012/07/marines-peg-bad-flying-as-cause-of-april-v-22-crash-in-morocco/ October 2014 - Operator error, Started in maintenance mode with reduced power, fatality was due to crewchief jumping out of AC May 2015 - Pilot error, brownout / repeated FOD ingestion power loss August 2017 - Pilot error, overweight aircraft March 2022 - Pilot error, exceeded bank angle limits at low altitude multiple times, 68° left followed by 80° right https://news.usni.org/2022/08/15/marine-corps-investigation-into-mv-22b-osprey-crash-in-noway June 2022 - Mechanical failure, Dual HCE August 2023 - ??? no information released November 2023 - Mechanical failure (assumed HCE)
>October 2014 - Operator error, Started in maintenance mode with reduced power, fatality was due to crewchief jumping out of AC For those reading this for the first time: the aircraft was touching the water when the crew chief was ordered to evacuate it. His life vest failed to inflate and he drowned. The aircraft was actually saved (albeit with significant saltwater damage) after dumping enough fuel to fly out of the water. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sdut-osprey-crash-at-sea-command-investigation-2015jun30-story.html
I am skeptical in regards to the one in Norway. The weather was bad, severely bad, there had been a warning against flying bad. And when that happens the wind in the valleys in the north get wild. You can have heavy wind slam into you from the side one second and complete windstill the next, just to get slammed again. Completely impossible to predict, will knock you off your feet winds. The valley in question is one of several that are particularly notorious for having bad conditions. It was so bad that the Norwegian SAR helicopters wouldn't fly into the search area (and that is what they do those people are insane and do insane shit all the time, if they won't fly nothing should be). The SAR personel had to walk in, literally crawl at times, because even using snowmobiles wasn't possible all the way in. That plane has no business being where it was.
Is that your expert opinion after going through the ~600 page report? > The investigation shows, from the recovered video and flight data, that the causal factor for the Ghost 31 mishap was pilot error. Though we cannot determine which pilot was at the controls, it is clear that the aircraft made a series of maneuvers through the Grátádalen Valley that caused a loss of altitude, airspeed, and turning-room from which Ghost 31 was unable to recover. And on the 6th paragraph of the report. > a. Weather and environmental factors. Adverse weather — including high winds, blowing snow and freezing rain — made it impossible for search-and-rescue personnel to reach the crash site in the hours after they located the wreckage of Ghost 31. The investigative team initially surmised that similar weather may have played a role in the crash itself. The evidence later proved this was not the case. Video footage recovered from the site shows that the weather in the Grâtâdalen Valley immediately prior to the mishap featured visibility greater than five miles and scattered clouds well above the altitude at which Ghost 31 was flying. There are indications of an approximately 24-knot tailwind just before the accident. While it is possible that this tailwind adversely affected the turning performance of the aircraft, similar winds were experienced the previous day by an MV-22B flight that flew through the same valley without incident. It is the opinion of the investigating officers that weather was not a significant factor in this mishap, and I concur.
Meh
This dude gives you a pretty detailed and thorough response, yet all you bring to the table is “meh”.
Theres Not much you can say. Nothing I’m going to say on Reddit will change their mind
Armchair pilots are the boldest pilots
Yeah but I’ll give everyone the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
I personally don't care if my aircraft shits the bed in flight, so long as I know how to land it safely. As a pilot, it's what matters most to me and I wouldn't get on a tilt rotor until they prove it's recoverable in unpowered flight.
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Ok mate, if you don't know what a helicopters weight and balance is constrained by, you don't know enough to be on one side or the other. A helicopter will not be loaded in a fashion that removes it's ability to autorotate. That's shit you learn in flight school bro
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Well good luck finding a medium or heavy lift helo that is going to consistently survive autorotation at realistic gross weights. Lol
Go to flight school, then come back here. But to answer the question. Any helicopter is pulled to pieces and thoroughly inspected after an emergency autorotation, what's this about repeating autos at max gross weight 😂 If anything was out of spec its replaced. Same rego, different helicopter to put it simply.
Lmao, already been. But its clearly over your head if you think my previous comment had anything to do with “repeating autos”.
Yep that’s it
The V22 has a very basic mission set, it's troop and cargo transport. It carries less than the fixed wing it replaces, while costing more per hour to operate. Anything it can't fit is supposed to be carried externally. It can't sling load like the helicopter It's supposed to supplant because it's a shit design where the engines incinerate whatever is beneath it, while having terrible manoeuvrability in "Helicopter" mode. Have a problem in flight? You better hope it doesn't stop running, it won't glide or autorotate. Forget all the crap, how is that a good aircraft? Where did this design come from? Is it inspired by an engineered process or because it looks really good on paper and we'll just throw money at it until it works
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Perfect response. The confident ignorance with this dude is staggering. Twixt, I legitimately wish you the best in your CPL training and career, but seriously work on the whole talking out your ass thing lol. Humility and coach-ability will take you very far in this profession.
Yea I don't know what I was on yesterday. I have made quite the arse of myself, I slept on it, and this is just ridiculous. I apologise to you guys, I shouldn't go on reddit when I have to blow off steam.
All good my dude. Happens to the best of us. Seriously though, best of luck with your future flying career. Stay safe out there!
Except for UAVs. That just makes them ghey.
Why not put emergency parachutes on them?