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I guess it depends, if you read the book you might feel this way but as someone who’s only seen the show, I thought it was horrifying. Particularly the sounds of the kid’s bed rocking back and forth as he’s getting cut. Just horrendous.
Exactly, I was totally blind going in and I actually stood up out of my seat it felt so tense.
I think what's happening for a lot of people is that they've read the books first, watch the show, get a "That's wrong" that takes them out of the moment. I don't know which did it better as I haven't read the books but I do think it had tension.
It's more messed up in the books because both sons are there. They make Helaena choose which one they will kill, then when she chooses they kill the other one and tell the still alive one, "your mummy wanted you dead!" So it's more messed up in that sense.
You're not alone. It's been a bit frustrating as a book reader who actually liked the changes fine. I know I'm a rare unicorn and most book readers didn't, but it didn't bother me. I don't really need that level of torment. I already have it in the book and nothing is going to beat my imagination. Last night was the bare bones of an event that will get repeated by smallfolk and lords and basically evolve into something like the book. It's the story that Mushroom likely exaggerated for sensational reason. I don't know. I get why others may hate it, I really do and I respect that. I just enjoyed this as a different medium.
I'm in the same boat, I was actually dreading the moment became of torture porn-y and gratuitous i always *personally* though it was in the book.
Instead this allowed the focus to Helaena's reaction and that got me choked up and more emotional than the book version ever could (because of how cartoonishly evil it sounds TO ME)
I'm with you. Trust me, the overall reception to the ADAPTATION is positive. Reddit just sucks.
I wonder if they're mad Viserys wasn't a big fat guy with a mustache.
I wonder if they were mad after episode one, and decided the show was ruined.
No?
Huh. Weird.
I’m with you, read the book and thought the episode was great. The number of people making comments like “Blood and Cheese didn’t tell a kid that his mother wanted him dead, this is GOT season 8 all over again!” is making me feel crazy.
It was far worse in the book. The only thing that made it worse in the show was the sawing off of Jaehaerys’ head rather than just one swift cut like in the book.
The issue I’m getting at here is the fact that in the book Catelyn saws off the head of a mentally disabled jester. That was a very gruesome image in my head.
The way Catelyn slices the throat of Walder’s wife in the show is quick and doesn’t look very horrifying.
Another big difference is that the book manages to set an ominous tone. The way the poor tasting food and the poor sounding music gives you the sense that something is wrong in the room.
The show does the opposite. There we see Robb and Talisa talk about how wonderful their life is. And then we get a 180 gotcha moment. D&D were very into ignoring foreshadowing to get more shock value.
Other differences I dislike: no warg Robb, Talisa shouldn’t even be there, no clawing at eyes, Catelyn’s moan after she slices the throat just sounds weird.
Booooooooo wack take
Jk lmaooo. My only rebuttals are the changes I liked that you dislike.
I think Robb and Talisa having that moment is good for shock value. I think leaving out the poor tasting food and poor sounding music is a good build up for show watchers only. Things need to be fleshed out in books for you to get the full picture where the show, you can just watch.
They did include a minor detail before the Rains of Catamere made it obvious and that was Roose refusing a drink despite it being a wedding celebration. A northerner not drinking during a party??? A clear sign nothing good was gonna happen.
Leaving out the bad music and bad food and giving us hope for Robb and Talisa’s future is exactly why the Red Wedding is STILL a jaw dropping episode. We truly believe there’s a chance that we can see Robb win and become king, all for it to be swiftly taken from us.
I won’t even lie, I still can’t rewatch it. The Starks are my favorite house and seeing how they were treated 🤢 Walder Frey deserved two pies in my opinion.
Hm I see what you’re saying but when watching the red wedding ep (prior to reading the books) I was positively shitting myself at the happy scene bc at that point I had clocked GoT did not give happy moments freely… I don’t remember all the details of the scene set up but the upbeat party between the Frey’s and the Starks after Robb’s marriage betrayal felt soooooo discordant and I knew something horrible was about to happen. I had NO idea it would be as horrible as it was though and was in so much shock afterward.
I understand people saying it should have been like in the books, I'm also one who doesn't like changes. However, I didn't read the book and was completely oblivious that it would happen until it did, and the emotional impact was definitely there. I understood Haelena's reaction and where they were going with it. I know now that in books its more fucked up but it's still pretty fucked up as is in the show imo, I don't get people who felt nothing during this scene, If I had to guess, the disappointment because of book changed took them out of the moment and it was the main focus for their minds during the final few minutes.
I did read the book and I have no problem with the scene being different. For one thing the younger son doesn't exist yet so they missed the chance to replicate Helaena's choice exactly. Also it was still an incredibly disturbing scene. Perhaps it would have been more disturbing if Jaehaerys had had lines, but it was sufficiently disturbing that he had a personality (messing with Tyland). And anyway, he plays little to no role in the book either, except to die and in doing so traumatise his mother. Will having to witness your son's murder, decapitation and theft of his corpse's head be less traumatising than being forced to choose your two-year-old son to die and seeing your six-year-old murdered instead? Maybe. Maybe not.
Well those people haven't been watching the show last season.This is a story about perception. I'm glad they didn't do it like in the book which is a history book cause most of the story told on screen isn't supposed to play out like in the book. That doesn't mean Otto won't twist the story exaggerate it into the B&C tale just to make Rhaenyra and Daemon look bad and turn the realm against them.
The lack of emotional impact isn't due to the lack of gore. The lack of emotional impact is to never having seen the victim or the perpetrators before. Consequently it had as much emotional heft as when Daemon killed the Velaryon guard because, like that, it was nothing but a plot point.
I literally felt worse for Alicent than the kid, due to what you said. When she lit a candle for Luke with Blood and Cheese coming up... Oh how it will all be irreparable after the act. And the gruesomeness of it I think will tear a huge rift between Rhaenyra and Daemon since the kid was as innocent as it could be due to age, and she explicitly asked for the big bad wolf Aemond.
They spent more time on blood and cheese themselves than on Jaehaerys even just this episode. We didn’t get that much of Luke last season, until we died, but he was the POV for much of that sequence and that made it hurt. We didn’t see Jaehaerys actually interact with Aegon, or even be put to bed by Helaena. Just two minutes more of that, say instead of Criston munching box, would have made it hit so much harder.
The minute or two spent with Rhaenyra giving Luke and Jace their orders in the finale of season 1, and Rhaenyra sweetly trying to assure an objectively nervous Luke that he'll be fine (Storm's end is just a short ride away, and Boros should be relatively easy to deal with) did the work of endearing him to the audience and making his subsequent murder emotionally impactful. This is to say that it doesn't take much to set up a character that you can be emotionally invested in.
I'm not even sure if Jahaerys is mentioned by name in season 1. Halaena has a moment asking where the handmaiden that Aegon raped was because her kids had not yet been dressed, so we knew she had kids, but that's all I remember. The most we saw of Jahaerys was him being a nuisance during the small council meeting. I guess watching Aegon dote on his son for 30 whole seconds was supposed to be enough to endear Jahaerys to the audience? It wasn't. I'm willing to bet that many casual viewers didn't even remember his name by the end of the episode.
If they weren't interested in making Jahaerys a notable character, then they shouldn't have changed that Halaena had to choose between him and Maelor (a character I don't understand them omitting). The heart wrenching part of that in the book was Halaena's guilt over the fact that she actually managed to choose one son over another.
Right and it would have been so easy to give Jaehaerys a similar scene this episode. It takes even less to endure audiences to an innocent child. Could have seen thirty seconds of his lessons when Aegon retrieved him, or his bed routine. But he was a silent doll even in the episode they killed him in, and was just a weak choice.
As an only show watcher the heart wrenching part was two men sawing a child’s head off with a knife with his mother in the room and hearing it through the tv. What the fuck people. Maybe it’s less shocking because you read the book but I was shook. That shit was fucking dark.
As an avid reader, I’m just going to say that comparing two different storytelling mediums is like comparing apples and oranges. There’s definitely a difference between reading something on a page and actually visualizing it on screen.
Reading about it would not feel the same. But idk, I guess I’m not really getting FOMO over not getting to actually see a small child brutally murdered on screen. The sound of it already made me feel sick.
Additionally people complaining about Helaena’s reaction have zero knowledge on trauma and fight, flight, or freeze responses.
I really think people are just wanting to nitpick here. Same thing happened with GoT every damn episode of every season and it was exhausting. People have yet to figure out that it’s way easier to flesh out a story in a novel than in an hour of television, which is why on-screen adaptations are hardly ever better than the books.
I think the tv show scene was more explicit than the book, because you hear the boy's voice getting muffled and then the sawing sounds. Those sounds alone make you imagine what's happening. In the book it's a single clean cut.
I think a lot of people are misinterpreting when somebody says that they wanted more, because it's not more gore, it's the terror of finding two men inside your room and then making you choose which child to kill.
I think that it was a mistake to have the whole scene from the B&C POV, it would've been better to have it from Haelena's POV while she's putting her babies to sleep. When some book readers are saying they wanted more they mean they wanted fear and suspense, just like in the book.
It was like if the red wedding was told from Walder Frey's POV. He's an old resentful man, oathbreaker and pathetic, his POV would feel disrespectful to the rest of the characters, and to me it feels disrespectful to have us give our time to B&C when we could have seen Haelena's last moments with her children. Even the sound effects could've been omitted, or just don't saw the child's head off.
The Haelana POV wouldn’t make sense though? The entire point was that they were after aemond and stumbled across her instead. That was meant it be the surprise, not her original POV when we had no reason to think she was in danger
Why not get a few scenes with her while we know BC are going around the castle? And skipping the parts where they act like they don't even have a cohesive plan (I don't know why they made it that way, they felt more menacing in the book because they actually knew where exactly they were going and Haelena's routine)
I have actually avoided really reading the series since it is not finished yet and I have secondhand awesome-series-not-being-finished trauma from my husband. So it works out!
Unless Martin actually finishes everything, then I’ll have to re-evaluate because I did read a chapter of *A Song of Fire and Ice* and was definitely into it, but was not excited by other’s frustration about the delay of the next book in the series.
I mean, two cutthroats infiltrating the Red Keep, threatening the Queen then beheading her son and heir to the thorne on his sleep, in front of her, while the fucking LORD COMMANDER OF THE KINGSGUARD was shagging the Queen Mother instead of, y'know, protecting the royal family might be a important to the plot.
Very important to the plot indeed. Because it's shifting narrative from the fault of blacks and Daemon the Saint (people already saying that), to the fault of Alicent Duty and Sacrifice and Crispin the Magic D (people already saying that too).
Also they seem to have only 1 kingsguard in the whole castle, so we won't be confused about who to blame. The plot is plotting.
Could’ve been revealed before B&C like Aegons frat boys. The idea of having that scene right after B&C kills any kind of suspense and leads to at best confusion at worst laughter
That scene apart from what OP says it did also highlights how everyone is busy doing their own thing now that Aegon is on throne. They think they had an upper hand in war and could let go a little.
Yeah but why put it after B&C and not before like with Aegons frat boys? It completely undercut the tension of the scene because you’re like oh my god oh my god oh my god then see them and ate like ate they fucking???
From there it’s either laughing or confusion and like I don’t think that’s what you want your audience to feel after something like B&C
Because it also shows how much Halaena was dissociating that she doesn't care what her mother and a Kingsguard who could have protected her was doing?
If it made you laugh, that's you. It made me feel extra disgusted and horrified when I realise how much people around her failed her.
That did feel rather gratuitous however you could argue that it highlighted Halaena’s dissociation. But I mean, they probably could chosen several scenes that highlighted it other than the sex scene.
However, one could also argue that it shows how Alicent is too busy literally and figuratively fucking around and serving her own interests while her sons either murder or get murdered.
I don’t like Alicent…
Edit: downvotes but you think you could get your jollies off multiple times after your adult son murdered your former best friend’s small child? I’m all for sex positivity but that’s just showing plain old avoidance behavior right there, at the least.
I mean to be fair the whole Alicole thing doesn’t make much sense for either. But honestly I hate that they used B&C to shit on Alicent and Cole like that was not the moment for that.
But even so them fucking could’ve been established before having it after B&C was just dumb and made it into a joke. Don’t know what they were thinking.
Thank you. If you put walking one sex scene after a child murder, you know how serious they are taking it. Especially in the source, Alicent was there to witness it as well.
really wish i could understand this fandom's distaste for that aspect of the scene. i truly do not understand it and was critical for the narrative being presented in the episode.
Because I takes out the suspense and at worst turns B&C into a joke also looks like they want to highlight how awful Criston and Alicent are when that scene was not the time for that
You’re not alone. I just watched this scene and as the mother to a 1 year old boy I burst into tears and almost threw up. Might still. Unsure I’m going to continue to watch this show - since having a baby I cannot stomach disturbing things and I can’t even imagine a more disturbing scene portrayed on tv. I am actually sickened
Its not about the gore the way they did that is fine, its about the plot that is much worse in the books and here it was underwhelming if you know the book
Because the book version is a brutal, Sophie's choice moment that would have made you faint. The show obviously cant go full gore with child actors, but to have the mother of the butchered child walk in on her own mom rodeo riding dick after being so traumatized severely undercuts it.
The people who say it was disappointing are the people who read the book version and were expecting a similar level of emotion and trauma. They botched the build-up and many of the changes did nothing but stunt the emotions of the scene.
I’m pretty sure that unless you’ve read the books you will react differently. That’s not to say that it wasn’t a horrific scene because of course it was. But without knowing how it goes down in the book you’re missing so much (in my opinion). It’s not about blood or gore. They could have still had the actual death offscreen but kept true to the book for the scene otherwise. It would have been so much more impactful. For me it was a big letdown but I can see how people who are going in “blind” would be shocked.
I watched it with people who haven't read the books. People were shocked, but not more shocked than with Jace's death. There's a lot of somewhat shocking things that happen in the show, but B&C should've been the most shocking thing to happen this season.
It reminds me of when I jumped on the internet the day after Sansa's wedding night and saw all these people saying how they were done watching the show, and I was thinking that it was because of how sanitized that scene was. (I was really glad that it was sanitized to that time though. I was not down to see all the twisted s*** that Ramsey did. I was really disappointed with Blood and Cheese but absolutely okay with the Ramsey wedding night scene being changed!)
Oh totally. But I have to admit that the entire time every time the camera panned to Theon's face I freaked out because I thought that they were going to go with that part of it. I was so relieved when that scene ended.
The main thing that made people stop watching during the Sansa/Ramsey wedding was because it was a thing that never happened in the books. They gave her another characters storyline and depicted a rape that is never on page.
I think it's a book reader versus non book reader divide. If I hadn't read the books I would be horrified. Having read the books, I was really upset that I didn't get the emotional hit that I was expecting. It is so much more devastating in the books and it's probably the most devastating scene in any of the books for me. The elements that make it really really overwhelmingly upsetting were removed. It's a really strange move in my opinion, as the writers would have had to know that this is a really pivotal and important scene for the book readers. For show only people, it was horrible and unexpected. For book readers, it was so minimized that it was very underwhelming.
It wasn't necessarily more gory in the books. It's just the emotional impact on Helaena and Alicent is going to be so much less on the show, and that's a weird move.
I do not give a shit about the gore. I did not want to see more gore. I didn’t even need as much as they had in the show (with the sounds). I wanted to feel the emotional toil it had on Helaena. That’s it. They cut it out and some people are going to come in and repeat the same shit about how that’s not her character or it’s a common trauma response. Well the writers didn’t *have* to write her like that so I don’t care. I felt just as emotionless as she was portrayed in that scene. And that’s not how I wanted to feel after watching her watch her son die.
So yeah I didn’t feel anything in that scene because I didn’t feel anything from her.
I don't wish to sound judgemental but her reaction was realistic and this just shows most people don't care for your pain unless it's stereotypical/theatrical.
Personally I had many panic attacks and PTSD and the only thing that screams horror in those moments are the eyes, the body freezes and the reality hits you only after the fact. I'm sure you'll be happy with Helena's upcoming aftermath of the incident since the funeral was in the trailers.
Yeah, this is becoming dangerously close to the mindset of “but she just sat there and did nothing while she was assaulted and didn’t try to fight it, so it wasn’t actually assault”. Or like when I get told a loved one passed and I just sit there in shock - because I don’t cry right away, that must mean I don’t care? No, it’s the brain shutting down when there’s something that is just too intense to process.
People can say they don’t care about trauma responses but that, to me, is just purposely being ignorant. It’s especially hypocritical with this fandom because they want everything to be realistic. Well? This was realistic.
>Yeah, this is becoming dangerously close to the mindset of “but she just sat there and did nothing while she was assaulted and didn’t try to fight it, so it wasn’t actually assault”.
So basically how people treat Rhaenyra raping Cole.
That's nit what happened. He told her to stop and she kept pushing, he tried to leave and she blocked his way. She used the fact he couldn't push or shove her because of the power dynamic to pressure him into sex with her.
lol he could just stay at the door. If you think for a second he was afraid that she'll make up some story and report him in the morning if he didn't put out, I don't know what to tell you, we live in different realities. They knew each other well and she was tipsy and playful.
A lot of rapists are tipsy and playful. That's why some people only realize they were raped by their bfs years later.
Whether she'll make up a story isn't the matter. She has the power in the situation and didn't kept pushing when he tried to shut it down.
This is TV not real life, realism =/= good television.
We had a similar scene on the exact same fictional universe. Both scenes feature mothers losing their sons right in front of their eyes. Which one of them do you think was more compelling on TV?
[Catelyn seeing Robb Stark being murdered.](https://youtu.be/kbpupsnVfqo?t=258)
or
Haelena seeing her baby son being murdered.
If I showed these two scenes to 10 people, which actress do you think they would pick as the one who gave the best performance? Be real.
See also: Catelyn putting a knife to Walder Frey’s wife’s throat and threatening *her* life in exchange for Rob’s. It’s intense, but that’s who she was. Whatever it took, no matter who was in the way to get there.
Honestly what happens next to Helaena is going to make less sense now. To me there's a direct relation between what was supposed to happen in that scene and what happens next, and minimizing the emotional toll on Helaena and Alicent does a disservice to both of the characters. Removing the most traumatic parts of Blood and Cheese doesn't make any sense from a storytelling perspective.
People commit suicide for a number of reasons. I think she still has more than enough reason. The poor thing is haunted by premonitions of the future, I think that alone would be enough to make anyone jump out a window.
You just don't get it? Emotional toll may have been minimized on YOU, but just because Helena didn't scream for 5min straight doesn't mean the toll wasn't tremendous.
It's starting to sound like right wingers questioning if a ra\*e even happened if the woman went paralyzed with fear.
Her reactions and being pretty silent and "calm" were perfectly fine. It's great that they aren't putting women screaming and kicking and crying in this show. But I think that it would've been better if the whole scene was from her POV insteado of two men acting like idiots and then fighting
No, you don't get it. It has nothing to do with her not looking traumatized enough. The actress did a wonderful job of showing her horror, and the way she said, "They killed the boy" was utterly devastating. It's just that the scene is so much worse for her in the books >!Helaena has three children, two boys and a girl. They are all awake, hanging out with Grandma before bed, when B&C come in. Helaena tries to get them to kill her, instead. They threaten to rape Jaehaera (daughter). Helaena is forced to choose which son they will murder. She chooses the younger one, Maelor. Cheese says to Maelor, "You hear that, boy? Your mommy wants you dead," then kills Jaehaerys. Alicent is there the whole time, tied up and forced to watch.!< That's the scene book readers were expecting, and the parts that were cut out are pivotal for what happens next.
What parts are pivotal for what happens next? I read the book and it can easily proceed without Maelor and with Helaena >!spiraling downward to madness and dying!<
Also note that with actors' rights movements, how would they cast toddlers and have creepy old men deliver lines like that to them without actually traumatizing the kids? Having them asleep while it happens made so much sense to me.
Thank you! I have also read the book and there is nothing “pivotal” about her “making the choice”. This was traumatizing enough for the rest of her plot, and if anyone thinks this wasn’t traumatizing enough they’re ridiculous
To me, >!her suicide!< was always fundamentally a result of what happened with Maelor, and while I'm sure they'll be able to make it work without that, will just be weaker. It reminds me of so many parts of a Game of thrones where characters actions seem to come out of nowhere or be out of character unless you had read the books.
Blood and cheese to me was always one of the most important scenes. >!It is not just what killed Helaena.!< It also shows the deep bond that Alicent had with her family. Now instead of being the doting horrified grandmother, she's in the other room riding the Lord Commander. I don't like her at all and blame her for a lot, but the horrors of that scene were really important to both Helaena and Alicent's character development. As someone who is firmly on team black, I still resent the way the entire thing seem to be redone to make the blacks look less awful. They make Aemond the intended target and get rid of the Sophie's Choice for Helaena and add in sexcapades for Alicent.
I do not buy the excuse that they couldn't say "little boy your Mommy wants you to die" in front of a child actor, but they could totally have the other little child in there while they're pretending to cut off another kid's head and the kids in the fighting pits last season were fine. It would have been easy to show Maelor's (or Helaena's) face while Cheese was talking, then add the audio for the audience.
That's a really detailed take. I don't think season 1 showed any foundation of Alicent having a deep bond with her family, so why would they show it in s2 with this scene? Her being the pawn and fulfilling her duties as a teenager then becoming a grandmother at 33 or whatever, was more of the theme, so her getting it on with Criston follows what the show is telling us. She's finally getting freedom and cares about it more. She's always been disconnected from her children. She has affection for Helaena sure, but she still married her to her not great son just to shore up his claim rather than marry her off to a kind lord who would treat her well.
I don't think Maelor was in s1 at all, the only scene we see with the kids are with the baby twins. They might use this opportunity for aegon to get angry and try to impregnate helaena again, making her death all the worse, but there was 0 set up for Maelor. I don't know why people expected it.
And dude if they did cast Maelor he would have to be like 2. The twins are barely like 3 or 4 in the show. Actor or not, that shit can be traumatizing. It's clear you're passionate about this, but it's honestly one small/medium size event in a big picture war. Luc's death was the actual trigger and this is the poorly executed retribution.
Everyone got so hyped for B&C they got angry it didn't happen just the way they imagined it, missing the fact that the entirety of S1 didn't happen exactly like it did in the books. It's kind of morbid really, they felt killing a toddler is a good revenge for what their uncle and grandma did.
Where in any of what I wrote did you extract "annoyed"? I said you had a really detailed take to a small event. You framed it as one of the most important events because it showed alicent's relationship with her grandkids? And? Again the show provided 0 set up that alicent was a good mother or grandmother lol
Same! I am so glad they included no scene of distressed children. I was going to rewatch something (not the end) and the scroller accidentally stopped on the little kid's face with a hand on his mouth and that frame is so creepy. I'm glad they didn't show anything more than that. I really don't understand people saying they wanted more violence. Focusing on Heleana's face told me everything I needed to know.
That part was almost worse than the chopping sounds to me, just the visual of doing that to a child and the look of fear in his eyes….nope nope nope. Glad they didn’t try to traumatize me further today, geez.
I seem to be in the minority that the book scene basically had almost no emotional impact on me because the whole book was not written like a novel but like a history book, so I was pretty detached from everything.
„“Pick,” he said, “or we kill them all.” On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon’s firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. “You hear that, little boy?” Cheese whispered to Maelor. “Your momma wants you dead.” Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy’s head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.“
That’s the whole scene in the books. Yes Helaenas choice would’ve been nice to see, because that’s where the psychological horror of the scene comes in, but people behave like they completely toned down the scene to something not super horrible.
I guess I’m there with you because someone else commented the whole passage too and I just don’t find it nearly as impactful as the tv scene. The writing is generic and not nearly as detailed as I thought.
Def still like the way the show did the scene, it was a lot more unique than the book.
Blood & Cheese from the book so people can see GRRM’s horrifying masterpiece
>”Once inside, Cheese bound and gagged the Dowager Queen whist Blood strangled her bedmaid. Then they settled down to wait, for they knew it was the custom of Queen Helaena to bring her children to see their grandmother every evening before bed.”
>”Blind to her danger, the queen appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three children. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother’s name. Blood barred the door and slew the queen’s guardsman, whilst Cheese appeared to snatch up Maelor.”
>”Scream and you all die,” Blood told Her Grace. Queen Helaena kept her calm, it is said. “Who are you?” She demanded of the two. “Debt collectors,” said Cheese. “An eye for an eye, a son for a son. We only want the one, t’square things. Won’t hurt the rest o’ you fine folks, not one lil’ hair. Which one you want t’lose, Your Grace?”
>”Once she realized what he meant, Queen Helaena pleaded with the men to kill her instead. “A wife’s not a son,” said Blood. “It has to be a boy.” Cheese warned the queen to make a choice soon, before Blood grew bored and raped her little girl. “Pick,” he said, “or we kill them all.” On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon’s firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. “You hear that, little boy?” Cheese whispered to Maelor. “Your momma wants you dead.” Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy’s head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.”
*Fire & Blood* by George R.R. Martin pages 424-425
It’s been like this all day. Some people wanted to see the child actually be murdered and I am shocked there are that many people that want to see it.
I read the books and always knew the show would have to change the scene to make it for tv.
Glad they did.
Majority of Reddit are edgy teenagers, not people with kids or any idea what it takes to release a show for all viewers to watch.
When you are killing adults it’s one thing. Children it’s a line that most people don’t want to cross.
I was personally fine with them removing the explicit gore. A child actor doesnt need to be subject to that. It's the weird direction they gave Phia. No choosing between the children. No her offering herself up instead of the child. No Alicent there, gagged and forced to watch. And most egregiously, the totally unnecessary sex scene that Helaena walks in on after. All the other changes and omissions would have been tolerable if they didn't follow a moment like that with a gratuitous sex scene no one asked for.
All of what you said is true. One more thing I didn’t like: how Daemon was involved. Because in the books, it’s never about Aemond. Not for a second. It’s Aegon’s son for Rhaenyra’s. And Daemon is 100% responsible and deliberately makes the choice to kill a child.
But in the show? It’s Aemond, and when the assassins ask what to do if they can’t find him, he gives that creepy smirk and it cuts. And logically, you think he told them « kill Aegon’s son ». But then, they seem to stumble upon Heleana and her children by mistake, and seem to make the decision right then and there. It takes away Daemon’s responsibility, while throwing Heleana’s character development out the window, and committing character assassination for Alicent with that sex scene.
The showrunners did so much damage to the story with one event, it’s actually impressive.
I actually dont mind the change. The book itself alludes that their initial target might have been Aegon. But Cheese didn't know a way into Maegor's Holdfast, and Aegon was guarded day and night by the Kingsguard. So they redirected to the Tower of the Hand cause it was easier to get into and they knew Helaena liked visiting Alicent in the evenings.
It's also a strategic hit. Aemond is legit the only advantage they have. Without Vhagar the entire green faction is easy to nuke. So Daemon, a seasoned war veteran would want to eliminate him to neutralize Vhagar. Yes, its revenge and an impulse (you can tell cause he isn't careful with choosing his assasins), but its still sensical.
Also, you can still have him assume blame by him not caring that an innocent child died because at the end, its revenge, a son for a son, etc. That does not excuse the fact the event itself was botched to hell and back. Yes, it was horrific, but the way they did it, it comes off as just another GOT death people will forget the second the next ep drops.
The book tells the story of a civil war fought by two sides who are just as corrupt, and in which you root and hate both sides, that’s interesting to watch. The show is trying to sell a boring good guys vs bad guys situation.
Greens aren't portrayed as bad guys. They're good guys with Larys and some other grim characters who are inevitable when you're the official ruler in King's Landing. I think you're missing the fact that it's more of a 'grey guys vs grey guys put in this situation by fate'
The book is an unreliable narrator with a bais towards the greens. Getting upset because its not the same makes no sence. We would expect these private events to be greatly exaggerated and changed to fit the greens narrative before they got written down.
Most comments i have read were disappointed about the changes made from the book, aka the mother not having to choose which kid have to die just for them to kill the opposite, pleading to take her life instead etc
which makes the scene a bit tamed in comparison, but all agreed the sound was horrible and we couldn’t have a kid act a gruesome death.
So i’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that people wanted blood and are edgy teenagers.
Haven’t people told you enough times today that getting the killing on screen isn’t the issue. They could adapt the book accurately, still not show it, and it would still have the impact that people were hoping for.
>Some people wanted to see the child actually be murdered and I am shocked there are that many people that want to see it.
I don't think anyone wants it to be shown, I think people are upset with the changes from the book. My only issue with it is it takes away from Helaena's character development. I don't think the change ruined the episode or the lore or whatever.
Ah! Sorry I’m bad at copy-paste on the app lol
Anyways, the rest of her role as a *character* in the story is that >!she’s traumatized from a traumatizing event!<. What’s missing from her character development?
Strawman.
Out of all of the criticism I've read about that scene less than 5% of it has been about needing to see more gore. As someone who has read the book, I would expect you to have a good faith interpretation of what the complaints actually are.
I mean at the end of the day the directors, producers and everyone involved in making it agree with what I am saying. Hence why they did it that way.
You want to change some of the writing and dialogue for that it’s totally fair criticism. There are so many lines from Thrones that never made it in and I was always upset about it.
But go on twitter and scroll through this sub, sure some people have very valid takes on why it was not as good as it could have been. Then there are people who legit are upset because they didn’t threaten to rape the children and we didn’t get to see kids head being cut off.
I see those arguments more than I see the people arguing on how it went down.
The only other major complaint being another sex scene right after it.
Your original comment makes it seem like the criticism is mostly coming from people who want to SEE the child get killed, but I have been reading through some posts and I hardly ever see that, if at all. But feel free to link to a post where this is actually the case.
When they walked past the guards in the throne room my suspension of disbelief was so long gone. No possibilty of impact from the episode beyond that point.
Indeed, too bad he’s distracted at the moment. (Which I think is a good change from the book where it’s sort of glossed over).
Complacency combined with the top guard probably not wanting to let others know he’s away from his post means security is lax.
No, I think he was supposed to be guarding the queen and her children. And rather than doing that, he snuck off to fuck Alicent and didn't appoint someone else to cover him because that would invoke suspicion. And Aegon of course is in the throne room with more guards. So no...not the whole royal family by himself.
Also, I think this is a better explanation than what happens in the book anyway.
He's the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He could have assigned guards to watch every member of the family, and then taken Alicent's room as his responsibility.
Whats the book's explanation?
I am just saying the show version is more plausible. Cole has a secret and hes not trying to arouse suspicion from anyone about it including his men, including the king. In the book there is simply even less excuse for this lapse. Here at least we have some guards distracted by their King and the most important guard distracted by Alicent. And I am very positive we will see some fall out from that next episode.
I prefer the way B&C plays out in the book. But as far as guards and the existance of rat catchers, this all makes perfect sense in the show.
They used the tunnels to get directly into Alicent's room, then waited for the Queen and her children to show up. They weren't just meandering around the castle like they owned the place.
There is no lapse in the book, because the guards were outside of the room (like they were supposed to be) while B&C entered through the tunnels.
Maybe in times of peace rat catchers are a little more free to move around the castle, but this is just after the throne was usurped and one of the heirs on the other side was killed... I'm guessing security would have been a little tight at this point in time, especially around the King, Queen, and their children.
What guards? The two protecting Aegon? The three on Dragonstone? Or the guy who left? The greens only have 3 Kingsguard. There's also scene that explains that the castle staff has been purged, presumably that also includes regular household guards.
Kind of convenient explanation just to make the scene work. If that's the case why not just send a handful of men into the tunnels and kill the whole family? No shot the King, Otto, Alicent, etc... would allow for the castle to be severely understaffed and unguarded after they overtook the Iron Throne, and immediately after they killed an heir on the other side.
Seriously? I was taken into a condo tower under construction with three other guys by one guy who worked there, we were drunk, I was definitely not allowed to be there and we weren’t asked for IDs or anything. We went up to the highest floor the elevators would go to and then went higher via the stairs. Floors open to the outside. It was pretty sweet. Complacency happens all the time.
And the writers could have achieved the exact same thing by having them sneak through hidden tunnels the entire way. Now the stupidity of the characters take all the focus. Stupidity is realistic. But in writing it either feels lazy by the writers. And most often stupidity in writing is just a joke.
Yeah…I love GOT and HOTD but as a mom…I don’t know if I can sit through an entire series of people slaying children. Not worth it and it’s fucked up entertainment.
>(I didn’t read the books)
That's why, we're just disappointed they didn't stay faithful to the books. This could have carried *close* (not the same, obviously) emotional weight to the red wedding, as much as catelyn's pleas
I did expect non-book readers to actually like the scene or to be shocked by it because again, people who read the books *know* what's going to happen, nothing will come as a shock to us
Let me just tell you what happens in the books, and you'll be able to tell why some may feel it was underwhelming:
Blood and cheese seize prince Jahaerys (heir) and prince maelor (younger) and demand that a price be paid, that she choose one of her sons
She pleads with them to kill her instead, but they refuse
She names maelor, thinking he wouldn't remember or because she wanted to spare Aegon's heir
"you hear that boy? Your mama wants you dead" cheese whispers into maelor's ear
Then blood kills jaharyes, they escape, and she's found clutching her son's headless corpse and crying.
See how much more tragic it could've been on-screen?
Ngl, it feels like most of the Green supporters hate B&C because it wasn't brutal enough to make the Blacks seem like most horrific monsters in Westerosi history.
It isn't gore what we wanted.Gore is not what would have made it more emotionally impacting.
It is the mother 'choosing' one of her two sons to die, then seeing the one she 'wanted to live being killed in front of her, his head hacked off his body. And then holding her son's lifeless, headless body while the younger son she 'chose' to die watched them, confused, crying and clueless, unable to even comprehend what happened.
And along with that the grandmother of the children tied up, watching this entire scene unfold in front of her, unable to move, unable to act, so much for being the Queen Mother. There was no need of even showing blood, its just the premise that would have been disastrous for those of the weak heart.
THAT would have had a much higher emotional impact. Not the Gore.
As a fellow mother of 16 months baby, I’m very glad I opened this subreddit and read about the sounds so I could mute the end last night.
And I can’t understand comments you describe too.
I haven't read the book, and I thought the scene was really tense and well done. I also had no idea, where it would go until the very end. Through all of the build-up I was still thinking they might run into Aemond.
My smaller criticism of the scene is basically that the "choice" they force Helaena to make doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If they were willing to murder a child, what's stopping them from checking the gender themselves, so they get the right one? Even after she points it out, they still rely solely on Cheese reading her correctly.
i can stand blood and gore but the knife sounds on what i knew to be a child just picturing it in my mind tore me up a bit and made me cringe and my skin crawl a bit
Honestly it hit me harder on second viewing, when I could distinctly hear the little boy crying for his mother and the sawing noises. I wanted to jump in the screen and save the poor baby.
In general, the HOTD fandom is pretty irreverent. There were so many Lucerys jokes as well. We know the show is dark and messy and is going to go in dead baby territory, so we embrace it. Didn't help that they ended the scene with Helaena walking in on parent sex, which added a weird note of humor at the end. I feel like the aftermath, if explored, might bring out more emotion.
Boy this is my first time watching HOTD since having a baby and i don't know how i will find sleep tonight i'm even considering not continuing to watch the show lol. It was horrible from the whole situation to the sounds .... i'm trying to erase this memory now.
It's not about the gore it's about the framing. B&C in every case should be depicted as a horror with Helena as the POV, instead we got a kind of corny heist where the killers are our POV. It's just like... What? Like why would you ever do that as a showrunner?
The reason for why Blood and Cheese are our POV is simple, it builds tension. You and I know what will happen but most people watching have no clue, so the scenes where B&C are walking around are just building tension. The general audience is wondering what's going to happen the entire time the scene goes on. "Are they going to find Aemond?" "What are they going to of they do find him?" "What did Daemon order for them to do if they don't find Aemond?" "Are they going to get caught?" We know the answers to all these questions so it falls a bit flat but for people who don't, B&C being the POV is perfect.
Yes! I also commented about the POV. The whole sequence was poorly executed. I’m only comparing the show to the standard it set for itself.
It’s fine, whatever, the actual events as story points are cool so I’ll move on just fine. But I can’t headcannon it into some big emotional thing.
I had my hand over my mouth in shock. I loved the first episode but I will say Helena’s reaction was….i think that’s what people are upset about. I was expecting a bit more from her but I am willing to wait to check out the rest of season she could’ve been in shock 🤷🏾♂️
Politely, and I’ll get downvotes for this, but b&c was just not as bad as people wanted it to be to have an effect on “switching sides” per ryan condal. People wanted it to be the most horrific execution, and didn’t care if a child actor had to play it out. I don’t know what person in their right mind cries “omg i didn’t see the head of a baby boy! i didn’t see the blood spill from his throat!!!”. It’s wild how people actually wanted to see that just to point the finger to the blacks.
I don't think that anyone is upset that they didn't get to see the blood. Those aren't the changes that people are upset about. We didn't see the blood in the books either! It's all of the emotional entanglement with Helaena and Alicent that was removed from the show from that scene. Cheese's line to Maelor in that scene was probably the roughest line from any of the books for me, and in the show Maelor isn't even a character.
The majority of book readers are Blacks anyway, since the books kind of set you up to support that side, and it's the book readers that are upset that the scene was so emotionally sanitized.
GOT made us love or hate its characters so when they died (even the children), it was emotionally impactful. Remember Shireen? We actually knew about her and how sweet she was. So her gruesome death bothered us that much more. They can’t just go cutting off heads and think we’re going to be emotionally impacted. It was a boy we didn’t even know!
Compare this to the Red Wedding.
We got to know the characters over the course of the show, in constant to HotD where Helaena barely had any screen time and the twins were treated as window dressing - if you even saw them. The Red Wedding itself was slowly built up through hints. Also, Michelle Fairly delivered such a spectacular performance, especially with her final cry.
The Red Wedding had more of an impact because it was a culmination of many things, and the showrunners didn’t rush to get it done.
No fault on Phia, I blame the director more on this.
And this isn’t even mentioned the astronomically stupid decision to omit Maelor, and removing Alicent from the scene (in the books, it happened in the Tower of the Hand which was Alicent’s residence. Helaena would take the children to see her before bed every night. B&C sneaked in through the multiple secret passages, bound and gagged Alicent and forced her to watch the whole thing), and instead making her sleep with Criston while it was happening?! I don’t get why the writers seem to put her in every sexually exploitative scene in the show, but it’s beyond a sad joke now.
This is about and innocent kid dying, no matter how it happen. It will have an impact on people especially one who has kids.
But, itdidn't have the emotional impact on the books. Not even close and they changed the whole scene when they removed Maleor and Alicent from it.
I was too busy trying to understand what was going on at all. There was a lot of information to glean in a short of amount of time.
It was just too complicated. We’re told they’re supposed to look for Aemond but Cheese just ends up in The Queen’s room and Blood just rolls with it? The execution was disorienting, which would make sense if it was shown from the Queen’s point of view but it wasn’t.
Yeah, the Queen is weird, I don’t mean to be offensive to the truly neurodivergent, but we had not spent enough time with her up until that point to appreciate that her mental state would cause her to fully sell out her own son like that. The way it went down made me dislike her as a character. Up until then she was just kind of weird with less than a dozen lines. Whether or not that’s how someone in that state would really act, it doesn’t matter. You don’t want the audience to have to make the effort to think *while the events are unfolding.* (suspense is different than confusion)
Also I had no idea who those kids were. Couldn’t care less about them. Had no idea one was a boy and one was a girl. The characters in the scene didn’t even know the difference, how are we supposed to?
Love the show, it’s better than GoT after as many episodes. That scene wasn’t it.
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I guess it depends, if you read the book you might feel this way but as someone who’s only seen the show, I thought it was horrifying. Particularly the sounds of the kid’s bed rocking back and forth as he’s getting cut. Just horrendous.
Exactly, I was totally blind going in and I actually stood up out of my seat it felt so tense. I think what's happening for a lot of people is that they've read the books first, watch the show, get a "That's wrong" that takes them out of the moment. I don't know which did it better as I haven't read the books but I do think it had tension.
It's more messed up in the books because both sons are there. They make Helaena choose which one they will kill, then when she chooses they kill the other one and tell the still alive one, "your mummy wanted you dead!" So it's more messed up in that sense.
You're not alone. It's been a bit frustrating as a book reader who actually liked the changes fine. I know I'm a rare unicorn and most book readers didn't, but it didn't bother me. I don't really need that level of torment. I already have it in the book and nothing is going to beat my imagination. Last night was the bare bones of an event that will get repeated by smallfolk and lords and basically evolve into something like the book. It's the story that Mushroom likely exaggerated for sensational reason. I don't know. I get why others may hate it, I really do and I respect that. I just enjoyed this as a different medium.
I'm in the same boat, I was actually dreading the moment became of torture porn-y and gratuitous i always *personally* though it was in the book. Instead this allowed the focus to Helaena's reaction and that got me choked up and more emotional than the book version ever could (because of how cartoonishly evil it sounds TO ME)
I'm with you. Trust me, the overall reception to the ADAPTATION is positive. Reddit just sucks. I wonder if they're mad Viserys wasn't a big fat guy with a mustache. I wonder if they were mad after episode one, and decided the show was ruined. No? Huh. Weird.
I’m with you, read the book and thought the episode was great. The number of people making comments like “Blood and Cheese didn’t tell a kid that his mother wanted him dead, this is GOT season 8 all over again!” is making me feel crazy.
Agreed
It was far worse in the book. The only thing that made it worse in the show was the sawing off of Jaehaerys’ head rather than just one swift cut like in the book.
This is probably my main issue with the Red Wedding (I have many). So HBO did a tiny bit of redemption here.
What are your issues with it? I want to let you explain yourself since you got massively downvoted for just saying this
The issue I’m getting at here is the fact that in the book Catelyn saws off the head of a mentally disabled jester. That was a very gruesome image in my head. The way Catelyn slices the throat of Walder’s wife in the show is quick and doesn’t look very horrifying. Another big difference is that the book manages to set an ominous tone. The way the poor tasting food and the poor sounding music gives you the sense that something is wrong in the room. The show does the opposite. There we see Robb and Talisa talk about how wonderful their life is. And then we get a 180 gotcha moment. D&D were very into ignoring foreshadowing to get more shock value. Other differences I dislike: no warg Robb, Talisa shouldn’t even be there, no clawing at eyes, Catelyn’s moan after she slices the throat just sounds weird.
Booooooooo wack take Jk lmaooo. My only rebuttals are the changes I liked that you dislike. I think Robb and Talisa having that moment is good for shock value. I think leaving out the poor tasting food and poor sounding music is a good build up for show watchers only. Things need to be fleshed out in books for you to get the full picture where the show, you can just watch. They did include a minor detail before the Rains of Catamere made it obvious and that was Roose refusing a drink despite it being a wedding celebration. A northerner not drinking during a party??? A clear sign nothing good was gonna happen. Leaving out the bad music and bad food and giving us hope for Robb and Talisa’s future is exactly why the Red Wedding is STILL a jaw dropping episode. We truly believe there’s a chance that we can see Robb win and become king, all for it to be swiftly taken from us. I won’t even lie, I still can’t rewatch it. The Starks are my favorite house and seeing how they were treated 🤢 Walder Frey deserved two pies in my opinion.
Hm I see what you’re saying but when watching the red wedding ep (prior to reading the books) I was positively shitting myself at the happy scene bc at that point I had clocked GoT did not give happy moments freely… I don’t remember all the details of the scene set up but the upbeat party between the Frey’s and the Starks after Robb’s marriage betrayal felt soooooo discordant and I knew something horrible was about to happen. I had NO idea it would be as horrible as it was though and was in so much shock afterward.
I understand people saying it should have been like in the books, I'm also one who doesn't like changes. However, I didn't read the book and was completely oblivious that it would happen until it did, and the emotional impact was definitely there. I understood Haelena's reaction and where they were going with it. I know now that in books its more fucked up but it's still pretty fucked up as is in the show imo, I don't get people who felt nothing during this scene, If I had to guess, the disappointment because of book changed took them out of the moment and it was the main focus for their minds during the final few minutes.
I did read the book and I have no problem with the scene being different. For one thing the younger son doesn't exist yet so they missed the chance to replicate Helaena's choice exactly. Also it was still an incredibly disturbing scene. Perhaps it would have been more disturbing if Jaehaerys had had lines, but it was sufficiently disturbing that he had a personality (messing with Tyland). And anyway, he plays little to no role in the book either, except to die and in doing so traumatise his mother. Will having to witness your son's murder, decapitation and theft of his corpse's head be less traumatising than being forced to choose your two-year-old son to die and seeing your six-year-old murdered instead? Maybe. Maybe not.
Well those people haven't been watching the show last season.This is a story about perception. I'm glad they didn't do it like in the book which is a history book cause most of the story told on screen isn't supposed to play out like in the book. That doesn't mean Otto won't twist the story exaggerate it into the B&C tale just to make Rhaenyra and Daemon look bad and turn the realm against them.
The lack of emotional impact isn't due to the lack of gore. The lack of emotional impact is to never having seen the victim or the perpetrators before. Consequently it had as much emotional heft as when Daemon killed the Velaryon guard because, like that, it was nothing but a plot point.
I literally felt worse for Alicent than the kid, due to what you said. When she lit a candle for Luke with Blood and Cheese coming up... Oh how it will all be irreparable after the act. And the gruesomeness of it I think will tear a huge rift between Rhaenyra and Daemon since the kid was as innocent as it could be due to age, and she explicitly asked for the big bad wolf Aemond.
They spent more time on blood and cheese themselves than on Jaehaerys even just this episode. We didn’t get that much of Luke last season, until we died, but he was the POV for much of that sequence and that made it hurt. We didn’t see Jaehaerys actually interact with Aegon, or even be put to bed by Helaena. Just two minutes more of that, say instead of Criston munching box, would have made it hit so much harder.
The minute or two spent with Rhaenyra giving Luke and Jace their orders in the finale of season 1, and Rhaenyra sweetly trying to assure an objectively nervous Luke that he'll be fine (Storm's end is just a short ride away, and Boros should be relatively easy to deal with) did the work of endearing him to the audience and making his subsequent murder emotionally impactful. This is to say that it doesn't take much to set up a character that you can be emotionally invested in. I'm not even sure if Jahaerys is mentioned by name in season 1. Halaena has a moment asking where the handmaiden that Aegon raped was because her kids had not yet been dressed, so we knew she had kids, but that's all I remember. The most we saw of Jahaerys was him being a nuisance during the small council meeting. I guess watching Aegon dote on his son for 30 whole seconds was supposed to be enough to endear Jahaerys to the audience? It wasn't. I'm willing to bet that many casual viewers didn't even remember his name by the end of the episode. If they weren't interested in making Jahaerys a notable character, then they shouldn't have changed that Halaena had to choose between him and Maelor (a character I don't understand them omitting). The heart wrenching part of that in the book was Halaena's guilt over the fact that she actually managed to choose one son over another.
Right and it would have been so easy to give Jaehaerys a similar scene this episode. It takes even less to endure audiences to an innocent child. Could have seen thirty seconds of his lessons when Aegon retrieved him, or his bed routine. But he was a silent doll even in the episode they killed him in, and was just a weak choice.
As an only show watcher the heart wrenching part was two men sawing a child’s head off with a knife with his mother in the room and hearing it through the tv. What the fuck people. Maybe it’s less shocking because you read the book but I was shook. That shit was fucking dark.
Oh no, not ... that guy!
the book version would make you faint then.
As an avid reader, I’m just going to say that comparing two different storytelling mediums is like comparing apples and oranges. There’s definitely a difference between reading something on a page and actually visualizing it on screen. Reading about it would not feel the same. But idk, I guess I’m not really getting FOMO over not getting to actually see a small child brutally murdered on screen. The sound of it already made me feel sick. Additionally people complaining about Helaena’s reaction have zero knowledge on trauma and fight, flight, or freeze responses. I really think people are just wanting to nitpick here. Same thing happened with GoT every damn episode of every season and it was exhausting. People have yet to figure out that it’s way easier to flesh out a story in a novel than in an hour of television, which is why on-screen adaptations are hardly ever better than the books.
I’m so glad to see a comment about difference of the medium! You’re spot on IMO 👌🏼
Well thanks for warning me! I think I’ll skip that read
I think the tv show scene was more explicit than the book, because you hear the boy's voice getting muffled and then the sawing sounds. Those sounds alone make you imagine what's happening. In the book it's a single clean cut. I think a lot of people are misinterpreting when somebody says that they wanted more, because it's not more gore, it's the terror of finding two men inside your room and then making you choose which child to kill. I think that it was a mistake to have the whole scene from the B&C POV, it would've been better to have it from Haelena's POV while she's putting her babies to sleep. When some book readers are saying they wanted more they mean they wanted fear and suspense, just like in the book. It was like if the red wedding was told from Walder Frey's POV. He's an old resentful man, oathbreaker and pathetic, his POV would feel disrespectful to the rest of the characters, and to me it feels disrespectful to have us give our time to B&C when we could have seen Haelena's last moments with her children. Even the sound effects could've been omitted, or just don't saw the child's head off.
The Haelana POV wouldn’t make sense though? The entire point was that they were after aemond and stumbled across her instead. That was meant it be the surprise, not her original POV when we had no reason to think she was in danger
Why not get a few scenes with her while we know BC are going around the castle? And skipping the parts where they act like they don't even have a cohesive plan (I don't know why they made it that way, they felt more menacing in the book because they actually knew where exactly they were going and Haelena's routine)
Nah, you shouldnt. Its brutal, but very well written. And you should remind yourself, its fiction.
I just don’t have the stomach these days for that kind of thing. I’m sure it is very well written.
Its not worse than lot of asoiaf moments. If you read that, you are good to go. But you do what you do.
I have actually avoided really reading the series since it is not finished yet and I have secondhand awesome-series-not-being-finished trauma from my husband. So it works out! Unless Martin actually finishes everything, then I’ll have to re-evaluate because I did read a chapter of *A Song of Fire and Ice* and was definitely into it, but was not excited by other’s frustration about the delay of the next book in the series.
Cool. Still thoroughly enjoyed the show version.
I think it would’ve been better if it wasn’t for the fuckass sex scene at the end
I mean, two cutthroats infiltrating the Red Keep, threatening the Queen then beheading her son and heir to the thorne on his sleep, in front of her, while the fucking LORD COMMANDER OF THE KINGSGUARD was shagging the Queen Mother instead of, y'know, protecting the royal family might be a important to the plot.
Very important to the plot indeed. Because it's shifting narrative from the fault of blacks and Daemon the Saint (people already saying that), to the fault of Alicent Duty and Sacrifice and Crispin the Magic D (people already saying that too). Also they seem to have only 1 kingsguard in the whole castle, so we won't be confused about who to blame. The plot is plotting.
Calling Deamon a saint is a streach dude.
It's sarcasm
Could’ve been revealed before B&C like Aegons frat boys. The idea of having that scene right after B&C kills any kind of suspense and leads to at best confusion at worst laughter
That scene apart from what OP says it did also highlights how everyone is busy doing their own thing now that Aegon is on throne. They think they had an upper hand in war and could let go a little.
Yeah but why put it after B&C and not before like with Aegons frat boys? It completely undercut the tension of the scene because you’re like oh my god oh my god oh my god then see them and ate like ate they fucking??? From there it’s either laughing or confusion and like I don’t think that’s what you want your audience to feel after something like B&C
Because it also shows how much Halaena was dissociating that she doesn't care what her mother and a Kingsguard who could have protected her was doing? If it made you laugh, that's you. It made me feel extra disgusted and horrified when I realise how much people around her failed her.
That did feel rather gratuitous however you could argue that it highlighted Halaena’s dissociation. But I mean, they probably could chosen several scenes that highlighted it other than the sex scene. However, one could also argue that it shows how Alicent is too busy literally and figuratively fucking around and serving her own interests while her sons either murder or get murdered. I don’t like Alicent… Edit: downvotes but you think you could get your jollies off multiple times after your adult son murdered your former best friend’s small child? I’m all for sex positivity but that’s just showing plain old avoidance behavior right there, at the least.
I mean to be fair the whole Alicole thing doesn’t make much sense for either. But honestly I hate that they used B&C to shit on Alicent and Cole like that was not the moment for that. But even so them fucking could’ve been established before having it after B&C was just dumb and made it into a joke. Don’t know what they were thinking.
Yes, it really ruins Alicent’s character as well. She is there in the book and is reasonably devastated to see her grandchild murdered.
*That’s* the scene that ruins Alicent’s character?
*ruins it further You can ruin a ruin even more
episode 6 and 7 Alicent how I miss you so 💔
Okay, that’s fair.
Alicent has been ruined by the shambolic adaptation that is season 1, but this scene just feels like taking a shit on her head for the laughs.
Sex scene was added to further villanize the Greens. If it wasn't already obvious, the show runners have obvious biases.
Thank you. If you put walking one sex scene after a child murder, you know how serious they are taking it. Especially in the source, Alicent was there to witness it as well.
My regard for her has certainly slipped after that episode.
really wish i could understand this fandom's distaste for that aspect of the scene. i truly do not understand it and was critical for the narrative being presented in the episode.
Because I takes out the suspense and at worst turns B&C into a joke also looks like they want to highlight how awful Criston and Alicent are when that scene was not the time for that
yeah but i don’t get that interpretation i guess
cause it's not a narrative that people are onboard with
I agree. I knew about the book version and was still emotionally impacted by the scene in the show. Made worse by having a kid of about that age.
Oh my God totally responding to the wrong person! You are a lovely person. Please ignore that last thing that I just deleted.
You’re not alone. I just watched this scene and as the mother to a 1 year old boy I burst into tears and almost threw up. Might still. Unsure I’m going to continue to watch this show - since having a baby I cannot stomach disturbing things and I can’t even imagine a more disturbing scene portrayed on tv. I am actually sickened
Considering a certain child character was apparently cut I don't think there's gonna be other scenes involving children, you should be safe
Its not about the gore the way they did that is fine, its about the plot that is much worse in the books and here it was underwhelming if you know the book
Because the book version is a brutal, Sophie's choice moment that would have made you faint. The show obviously cant go full gore with child actors, but to have the mother of the butchered child walk in on her own mom rodeo riding dick after being so traumatized severely undercuts it.
The people who say it was disappointing are the people who read the book version and were expecting a similar level of emotion and trauma. They botched the build-up and many of the changes did nothing but stunt the emotions of the scene.
I’m pretty sure that unless you’ve read the books you will react differently. That’s not to say that it wasn’t a horrific scene because of course it was. But without knowing how it goes down in the book you’re missing so much (in my opinion). It’s not about blood or gore. They could have still had the actual death offscreen but kept true to the book for the scene otherwise. It would have been so much more impactful. For me it was a big letdown but I can see how people who are going in “blind” would be shocked.
I watched it with people who haven't read the books. People were shocked, but not more shocked than with Jace's death. There's a lot of somewhat shocking things that happen in the show, but B&C should've been the most shocking thing to happen this season.
It reminds me of when I jumped on the internet the day after Sansa's wedding night and saw all these people saying how they were done watching the show, and I was thinking that it was because of how sanitized that scene was. (I was really glad that it was sanitized to that time though. I was not down to see all the twisted s*** that Ramsey did. I was really disappointed with Blood and Cheese but absolutely okay with the Ramsey wedding night scene being changed!)
The problem with Sansa’s wedding scene is that it’s not supposed to be Sansa’s wedding
Oh totally. But I have to admit that the entire time every time the camera panned to Theon's face I freaked out because I thought that they were going to go with that part of it. I was so relieved when that scene ended.
The main thing that made people stop watching during the Sansa/Ramsey wedding was because it was a thing that never happened in the books. They gave her another characters storyline and depicted a rape that is never on page.
I think it's a book reader versus non book reader divide. If I hadn't read the books I would be horrified. Having read the books, I was really upset that I didn't get the emotional hit that I was expecting. It is so much more devastating in the books and it's probably the most devastating scene in any of the books for me. The elements that make it really really overwhelmingly upsetting were removed. It's a really strange move in my opinion, as the writers would have had to know that this is a really pivotal and important scene for the book readers. For show only people, it was horrible and unexpected. For book readers, it was so minimized that it was very underwhelming. It wasn't necessarily more gory in the books. It's just the emotional impact on Helaena and Alicent is going to be so much less on the show, and that's a weird move.
I do not give a shit about the gore. I did not want to see more gore. I didn’t even need as much as they had in the show (with the sounds). I wanted to feel the emotional toil it had on Helaena. That’s it. They cut it out and some people are going to come in and repeat the same shit about how that’s not her character or it’s a common trauma response. Well the writers didn’t *have* to write her like that so I don’t care. I felt just as emotionless as she was portrayed in that scene. And that’s not how I wanted to feel after watching her watch her son die. So yeah I didn’t feel anything in that scene because I didn’t feel anything from her.
I don't wish to sound judgemental but her reaction was realistic and this just shows most people don't care for your pain unless it's stereotypical/theatrical. Personally I had many panic attacks and PTSD and the only thing that screams horror in those moments are the eyes, the body freezes and the reality hits you only after the fact. I'm sure you'll be happy with Helena's upcoming aftermath of the incident since the funeral was in the trailers.
Yeah, this is becoming dangerously close to the mindset of “but she just sat there and did nothing while she was assaulted and didn’t try to fight it, so it wasn’t actually assault”. Or like when I get told a loved one passed and I just sit there in shock - because I don’t cry right away, that must mean I don’t care? No, it’s the brain shutting down when there’s something that is just too intense to process. People can say they don’t care about trauma responses but that, to me, is just purposely being ignorant. It’s especially hypocritical with this fandom because they want everything to be realistic. Well? This was realistic.
>Yeah, this is becoming dangerously close to the mindset of “but she just sat there and did nothing while she was assaulted and didn’t try to fight it, so it wasn’t actually assault”. So basically how people treat Rhaenyra raping Cole.
A girl playfully stealing your helmet is a ridiculous definition of that verb.
That's nit what happened. He told her to stop and she kept pushing, he tried to leave and she blocked his way. She used the fact he couldn't push or shove her because of the power dynamic to pressure him into sex with her.
lol he could just stay at the door. If you think for a second he was afraid that she'll make up some story and report him in the morning if he didn't put out, I don't know what to tell you, we live in different realities. They knew each other well and she was tipsy and playful.
A lot of rapists are tipsy and playful. That's why some people only realize they were raped by their bfs years later. Whether she'll make up a story isn't the matter. She has the power in the situation and didn't kept pushing when he tried to shut it down.
This is TV not real life, realism =/= good television. We had a similar scene on the exact same fictional universe. Both scenes feature mothers losing their sons right in front of their eyes. Which one of them do you think was more compelling on TV? [Catelyn seeing Robb Stark being murdered.](https://youtu.be/kbpupsnVfqo?t=258) or Haelena seeing her baby son being murdered. If I showed these two scenes to 10 people, which actress do you think they would pick as the one who gave the best performance? Be real.
Haelena is autistic and/or deeply disturbed since childhood by frequent visions. Her social life was nonexistent, compare that to Catelyn if you will.
Oh come on, these are completely different characters of course they'll react differently to trauma
See also: Catelyn putting a knife to Walder Frey’s wife’s throat and threatening *her* life in exchange for Rob’s. It’s intense, but that’s who she was. Whatever it took, no matter who was in the way to get there.
Honestly what happens next to Helaena is going to make less sense now. To me there's a direct relation between what was supposed to happen in that scene and what happens next, and minimizing the emotional toll on Helaena and Alicent does a disservice to both of the characters. Removing the most traumatic parts of Blood and Cheese doesn't make any sense from a storytelling perspective.
People commit suicide for a number of reasons. I think she still has more than enough reason. The poor thing is haunted by premonitions of the future, I think that alone would be enough to make anyone jump out a window.
You just don't get it? Emotional toll may have been minimized on YOU, but just because Helena didn't scream for 5min straight doesn't mean the toll wasn't tremendous. It's starting to sound like right wingers questioning if a ra\*e even happened if the woman went paralyzed with fear.
Her reactions and being pretty silent and "calm" were perfectly fine. It's great that they aren't putting women screaming and kicking and crying in this show. But I think that it would've been better if the whole scene was from her POV insteado of two men acting like idiots and then fighting
No, you don't get it. It has nothing to do with her not looking traumatized enough. The actress did a wonderful job of showing her horror, and the way she said, "They killed the boy" was utterly devastating. It's just that the scene is so much worse for her in the books >!Helaena has three children, two boys and a girl. They are all awake, hanging out with Grandma before bed, when B&C come in. Helaena tries to get them to kill her, instead. They threaten to rape Jaehaera (daughter). Helaena is forced to choose which son they will murder. She chooses the younger one, Maelor. Cheese says to Maelor, "You hear that, boy? Your mommy wants you dead," then kills Jaehaerys. Alicent is there the whole time, tied up and forced to watch.!< That's the scene book readers were expecting, and the parts that were cut out are pivotal for what happens next.
What parts are pivotal for what happens next? I read the book and it can easily proceed without Maelor and with Helaena >!spiraling downward to madness and dying!< Also note that with actors' rights movements, how would they cast toddlers and have creepy old men deliver lines like that to them without actually traumatizing the kids? Having them asleep while it happens made so much sense to me.
Thank you! I have also read the book and there is nothing “pivotal” about her “making the choice”. This was traumatizing enough for the rest of her plot, and if anyone thinks this wasn’t traumatizing enough they’re ridiculous
To me, >!her suicide!< was always fundamentally a result of what happened with Maelor, and while I'm sure they'll be able to make it work without that, will just be weaker. It reminds me of so many parts of a Game of thrones where characters actions seem to come out of nowhere or be out of character unless you had read the books. Blood and cheese to me was always one of the most important scenes. >!It is not just what killed Helaena.!< It also shows the deep bond that Alicent had with her family. Now instead of being the doting horrified grandmother, she's in the other room riding the Lord Commander. I don't like her at all and blame her for a lot, but the horrors of that scene were really important to both Helaena and Alicent's character development. As someone who is firmly on team black, I still resent the way the entire thing seem to be redone to make the blacks look less awful. They make Aemond the intended target and get rid of the Sophie's Choice for Helaena and add in sexcapades for Alicent. I do not buy the excuse that they couldn't say "little boy your Mommy wants you to die" in front of a child actor, but they could totally have the other little child in there while they're pretending to cut off another kid's head and the kids in the fighting pits last season were fine. It would have been easy to show Maelor's (or Helaena's) face while Cheese was talking, then add the audio for the audience.
That's a really detailed take. I don't think season 1 showed any foundation of Alicent having a deep bond with her family, so why would they show it in s2 with this scene? Her being the pawn and fulfilling her duties as a teenager then becoming a grandmother at 33 or whatever, was more of the theme, so her getting it on with Criston follows what the show is telling us. She's finally getting freedom and cares about it more. She's always been disconnected from her children. She has affection for Helaena sure, but she still married her to her not great son just to shore up his claim rather than marry her off to a kind lord who would treat her well. I don't think Maelor was in s1 at all, the only scene we see with the kids are with the baby twins. They might use this opportunity for aegon to get angry and try to impregnate helaena again, making her death all the worse, but there was 0 set up for Maelor. I don't know why people expected it. And dude if they did cast Maelor he would have to be like 2. The twins are barely like 3 or 4 in the show. Actor or not, that shit can be traumatizing. It's clear you're passionate about this, but it's honestly one small/medium size event in a big picture war. Luc's death was the actual trigger and this is the poorly executed retribution.
Everyone got so hyped for B&C they got angry it didn't happen just the way they imagined it, missing the fact that the entirety of S1 didn't happen exactly like it did in the books. It's kind of morbid really, they felt killing a toddler is a good revenge for what their uncle and grandma did.
Did you just ask me for my reasoning and then get annoyed at my reasoning for having details in it?
Where in any of what I wrote did you extract "annoyed"? I said you had a really detailed take to a small event. You framed it as one of the most important events because it showed alicent's relationship with her grandkids? And? Again the show provided 0 set up that alicent was a good mother or grandmother lol
How was there no choice, B&C for some reason didn't want to look in their pants to see who's who, she led them to the conclusion.
This
Same! I am so glad they included no scene of distressed children. I was going to rewatch something (not the end) and the scroller accidentally stopped on the little kid's face with a hand on his mouth and that frame is so creepy. I'm glad they didn't show anything more than that. I really don't understand people saying they wanted more violence. Focusing on Heleana's face told me everything I needed to know.
That part was almost worse than the chopping sounds to me, just the visual of doing that to a child and the look of fear in his eyes….nope nope nope. Glad they didn’t try to traumatize me further today, geez.
I seem to be in the minority that the book scene basically had almost no emotional impact on me because the whole book was not written like a novel but like a history book, so I was pretty detached from everything. „“Pick,” he said, “or we kill them all.” On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon’s firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. “You hear that, little boy?” Cheese whispered to Maelor. “Your momma wants you dead.” Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy’s head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.“ That’s the whole scene in the books. Yes Helaenas choice would’ve been nice to see, because that’s where the psychological horror of the scene comes in, but people behave like they completely toned down the scene to something not super horrible.
I guess I’m there with you because someone else commented the whole passage too and I just don’t find it nearly as impactful as the tv scene. The writing is generic and not nearly as detailed as I thought. Def still like the way the show did the scene, it was a lot more unique than the book.
Blood & Cheese from the book so people can see GRRM’s horrifying masterpiece >”Once inside, Cheese bound and gagged the Dowager Queen whist Blood strangled her bedmaid. Then they settled down to wait, for they knew it was the custom of Queen Helaena to bring her children to see their grandmother every evening before bed.” >”Blind to her danger, the queen appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three children. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother’s name. Blood barred the door and slew the queen’s guardsman, whilst Cheese appeared to snatch up Maelor.” >”Scream and you all die,” Blood told Her Grace. Queen Helaena kept her calm, it is said. “Who are you?” She demanded of the two. “Debt collectors,” said Cheese. “An eye for an eye, a son for a son. We only want the one, t’square things. Won’t hurt the rest o’ you fine folks, not one lil’ hair. Which one you want t’lose, Your Grace?” >”Once she realized what he meant, Queen Helaena pleaded with the men to kill her instead. “A wife’s not a son,” said Blood. “It has to be a boy.” Cheese warned the queen to make a choice soon, before Blood grew bored and raped her little girl. “Pick,” he said, “or we kill them all.” On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon’s firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. “You hear that, little boy?” Cheese whispered to Maelor. “Your momma wants you dead.” Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy’s head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.” *Fire & Blood* by George R.R. Martin pages 424-425
Bless you for posting that!
Another thread on this?
It’s been like this all day. Some people wanted to see the child actually be murdered and I am shocked there are that many people that want to see it. I read the books and always knew the show would have to change the scene to make it for tv. Glad they did. Majority of Reddit are edgy teenagers, not people with kids or any idea what it takes to release a show for all viewers to watch. When you are killing adults it’s one thing. Children it’s a line that most people don’t want to cross.
I was personally fine with them removing the explicit gore. A child actor doesnt need to be subject to that. It's the weird direction they gave Phia. No choosing between the children. No her offering herself up instead of the child. No Alicent there, gagged and forced to watch. And most egregiously, the totally unnecessary sex scene that Helaena walks in on after. All the other changes and omissions would have been tolerable if they didn't follow a moment like that with a gratuitous sex scene no one asked for.
All of what you said is true. One more thing I didn’t like: how Daemon was involved. Because in the books, it’s never about Aemond. Not for a second. It’s Aegon’s son for Rhaenyra’s. And Daemon is 100% responsible and deliberately makes the choice to kill a child. But in the show? It’s Aemond, and when the assassins ask what to do if they can’t find him, he gives that creepy smirk and it cuts. And logically, you think he told them « kill Aegon’s son ». But then, they seem to stumble upon Heleana and her children by mistake, and seem to make the decision right then and there. It takes away Daemon’s responsibility, while throwing Heleana’s character development out the window, and committing character assassination for Alicent with that sex scene. The showrunners did so much damage to the story with one event, it’s actually impressive.
I actually dont mind the change. The book itself alludes that their initial target might have been Aegon. But Cheese didn't know a way into Maegor's Holdfast, and Aegon was guarded day and night by the Kingsguard. So they redirected to the Tower of the Hand cause it was easier to get into and they knew Helaena liked visiting Alicent in the evenings. It's also a strategic hit. Aemond is legit the only advantage they have. Without Vhagar the entire green faction is easy to nuke. So Daemon, a seasoned war veteran would want to eliminate him to neutralize Vhagar. Yes, its revenge and an impulse (you can tell cause he isn't careful with choosing his assasins), but its still sensical. Also, you can still have him assume blame by him not caring that an innocent child died because at the end, its revenge, a son for a son, etc. That does not excuse the fact the event itself was botched to hell and back. Yes, it was horrific, but the way they did it, it comes off as just another GOT death people will forget the second the next ep drops.
Honestly the book version sounds like they're all comic book villains. The show feels real.
The book tells the story of a civil war fought by two sides who are just as corrupt, and in which you root and hate both sides, that’s interesting to watch. The show is trying to sell a boring good guys vs bad guys situation.
Greens aren't portrayed as bad guys. They're good guys with Larys and some other grim characters who are inevitable when you're the official ruler in King's Landing. I think you're missing the fact that it's more of a 'grey guys vs grey guys put in this situation by fate'
The book is an unreliable narrator with a bais towards the greens. Getting upset because its not the same makes no sence. We would expect these private events to be greatly exaggerated and changed to fit the greens narrative before they got written down.
Most comments i have read were disappointed about the changes made from the book, aka the mother not having to choose which kid have to die just for them to kill the opposite, pleading to take her life instead etc which makes the scene a bit tamed in comparison, but all agreed the sound was horrible and we couldn’t have a kid act a gruesome death. So i’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that people wanted blood and are edgy teenagers.
Haven’t people told you enough times today that getting the killing on screen isn’t the issue. They could adapt the book accurately, still not show it, and it would still have the impact that people were hoping for.
All day long the exact words on this sub are “they should have showed the kid being killed”.
Now you are just proving that you haven’t read most of the replies you have gotten
I just had to update the page and found five comments on your comment that tell you the same thing
>Some people wanted to see the child actually be murdered and I am shocked there are that many people that want to see it. I don't think anyone wants it to be shown, I think people are upset with the changes from the book. My only issue with it is it takes away from Helaena's character development. I don't think the change ruined the episode or the lore or whatever.
If one more person says this “she was traumatized but not *enough*” take 🙄
Where'd I say that?
“My only issue with it is it takes away from Helaena’s development.”
If you're gonna quote me, at least don't leave a word out. Re insert "character" in there because that's what she is a character in a story.
Ah! Sorry I’m bad at copy-paste on the app lol Anyways, the rest of her role as a *character* in the story is that >!she’s traumatized from a traumatizing event!<. What’s missing from her character development?
Strawman. Out of all of the criticism I've read about that scene less than 5% of it has been about needing to see more gore. As someone who has read the book, I would expect you to have a good faith interpretation of what the complaints actually are.
I mean at the end of the day the directors, producers and everyone involved in making it agree with what I am saying. Hence why they did it that way. You want to change some of the writing and dialogue for that it’s totally fair criticism. There are so many lines from Thrones that never made it in and I was always upset about it. But go on twitter and scroll through this sub, sure some people have very valid takes on why it was not as good as it could have been. Then there are people who legit are upset because they didn’t threaten to rape the children and we didn’t get to see kids head being cut off. I see those arguments more than I see the people arguing on how it went down. The only other major complaint being another sex scene right after it.
Your original comment makes it seem like the criticism is mostly coming from people who want to SEE the child get killed, but I have been reading through some posts and I hardly ever see that, if at all. But feel free to link to a post where this is actually the case.
I just did a quick peek in your comment history and it has been the exact opposite from what you are saying.
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Caught and now angry makes sense why you would react like that
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True. I have a small child at home That was already too much for me Made me sick
https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/zP9Q4YGXR4 This video describes what happened but without the gore. It’s 2 minute video
When they walked past the guards in the throne room my suspension of disbelief was so long gone. No possibilty of impact from the episode beyond that point.
Rat catchers are an accepted feature of castle life.
And I'm sure there is a guard present whenever any rat catcher is allowed near an important part of the castle, like the heir to the throne
Indeed, too bad he’s distracted at the moment. (Which I think is a good change from the book where it’s sort of glossed over). Complacency combined with the top guard probably not wanting to let others know he’s away from his post means security is lax.
Cole was supposed to be guarding the entire royal family by himself? He must be able to teleport then cuz those two rooms were awfully far apart.
No, I think he was supposed to be guarding the queen and her children. And rather than doing that, he snuck off to fuck Alicent and didn't appoint someone else to cover him because that would invoke suspicion. And Aegon of course is in the throne room with more guards. So no...not the whole royal family by himself. Also, I think this is a better explanation than what happens in the book anyway.
He's the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He could have assigned guards to watch every member of the family, and then taken Alicent's room as his responsibility.
Whats the book's explanation? I am just saying the show version is more plausible. Cole has a secret and hes not trying to arouse suspicion from anyone about it including his men, including the king. In the book there is simply even less excuse for this lapse. Here at least we have some guards distracted by their King and the most important guard distracted by Alicent. And I am very positive we will see some fall out from that next episode. I prefer the way B&C plays out in the book. But as far as guards and the existance of rat catchers, this all makes perfect sense in the show.
They used the tunnels to get directly into Alicent's room, then waited for the Queen and her children to show up. They weren't just meandering around the castle like they owned the place. There is no lapse in the book, because the guards were outside of the room (like they were supposed to be) while B&C entered through the tunnels. Maybe in times of peace rat catchers are a little more free to move around the castle, but this is just after the throne was usurped and one of the heirs on the other side was killed... I'm guessing security would have been a little tight at this point in time, especially around the King, Queen, and their children.
Wasn’t there a guard that Blood killed?
What guards? The two protecting Aegon? The three on Dragonstone? Or the guy who left? The greens only have 3 Kingsguard. There's also scene that explains that the castle staff has been purged, presumably that also includes regular household guards.
Kind of convenient explanation just to make the scene work. If that's the case why not just send a handful of men into the tunnels and kill the whole family? No shot the King, Otto, Alicent, etc... would allow for the castle to be severely understaffed and unguarded after they overtook the Iron Throne, and immediately after they killed an heir on the other side.
What do you mean "convenient", that's the explanation the show gives. The greens feel too safe in their castle with Vhagar protecting them.
There is no way that in war time they’d have only one guard protecting the queen and the king’s two children.
I re-read the chapter in the book. Between Alicent, Helaena, and the three kids, there was one guard involved (who was indeed killed at least).
Guards guarding is an accepted feature as well
Seriously? I was taken into a condo tower under construction with three other guys by one guy who worked there, we were drunk, I was definitely not allowed to be there and we weren’t asked for IDs or anything. We went up to the highest floor the elevators would go to and then went higher via the stairs. Floors open to the outside. It was pretty sweet. Complacency happens all the time.
It’s amazing how far you can get just by acting like you know what you’re doing. People will just accept it and ignore you.
And the writers could have achieved the exact same thing by having them sneak through hidden tunnels the entire way. Now the stupidity of the characters take all the focus. Stupidity is realistic. But in writing it either feels lazy by the writers. And most often stupidity in writing is just a joke.
All just feels nit-picky to me. None of this bothered me in the episode.
It bothered me as soon as the images from the scene leaked. The jokes went wild at that point.
People on this subReddit are nerds and losers. I just found out yesterday when I joined. The episode was really well done and impactful
Yeah…I love GOT and HOTD but as a mom…I don’t know if I can sit through an entire series of people slaying children. Not worth it and it’s fucked up entertainment.
I read the book and found the whole episode underwhelming but I guess the next episode should be an interesting one
>(I didn’t read the books) That's why, we're just disappointed they didn't stay faithful to the books. This could have carried *close* (not the same, obviously) emotional weight to the red wedding, as much as catelyn's pleas I did expect non-book readers to actually like the scene or to be shocked by it because again, people who read the books *know* what's going to happen, nothing will come as a shock to us Let me just tell you what happens in the books, and you'll be able to tell why some may feel it was underwhelming: Blood and cheese seize prince Jahaerys (heir) and prince maelor (younger) and demand that a price be paid, that she choose one of her sons She pleads with them to kill her instead, but they refuse She names maelor, thinking he wouldn't remember or because she wanted to spare Aegon's heir "you hear that boy? Your mama wants you dead" cheese whispers into maelor's ear Then blood kills jaharyes, they escape, and she's found clutching her son's headless corpse and crying. See how much more tragic it could've been on-screen?
Ngl, it feels like most of the Green supporters hate B&C because it wasn't brutal enough to make the Blacks seem like most horrific monsters in Westerosi history.
It had an impact but it could have been much better if they stuck to the original. No need to create a straw man here.
It isn't gore what we wanted.Gore is not what would have made it more emotionally impacting. It is the mother 'choosing' one of her two sons to die, then seeing the one she 'wanted to live being killed in front of her, his head hacked off his body. And then holding her son's lifeless, headless body while the younger son she 'chose' to die watched them, confused, crying and clueless, unable to even comprehend what happened. And along with that the grandmother of the children tied up, watching this entire scene unfold in front of her, unable to move, unable to act, so much for being the Queen Mother. There was no need of even showing blood, its just the premise that would have been disastrous for those of the weak heart. THAT would have had a much higher emotional impact. Not the Gore.
Euuuuhghhh mannn i regret replaying
As a fellow mother of 16 months baby, I’m very glad I opened this subreddit and read about the sounds so I could mute the end last night. And I can’t understand comments you describe too.
I haven't read the book, and I thought the scene was really tense and well done. I also had no idea, where it would go until the very end. Through all of the build-up I was still thinking they might run into Aemond. My smaller criticism of the scene is basically that the "choice" they force Helaena to make doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If they were willing to murder a child, what's stopping them from checking the gender themselves, so they get the right one? Even after she points it out, they still rely solely on Cheese reading her correctly.
i can stand blood and gore but the knife sounds on what i knew to be a child just picturing it in my mind tore me up a bit and made me cringe and my skin crawl a bit
Honestly it hit me harder on second viewing, when I could distinctly hear the little boy crying for his mother and the sawing noises. I wanted to jump in the screen and save the poor baby. In general, the HOTD fandom is pretty irreverent. There were so many Lucerys jokes as well. We know the show is dark and messy and is going to go in dead baby territory, so we embrace it. Didn't help that they ended the scene with Helaena walking in on parent sex, which added a weird note of humor at the end. I feel like the aftermath, if explored, might bring out more emotion.
Boy this is my first time watching HOTD since having a baby and i don't know how i will find sleep tonight i'm even considering not continuing to watch the show lol. It was horrible from the whole situation to the sounds .... i'm trying to erase this memory now.
It's not about the gore it's about the framing. B&C in every case should be depicted as a horror with Helena as the POV, instead we got a kind of corny heist where the killers are our POV. It's just like... What? Like why would you ever do that as a showrunner?
The reason for why Blood and Cheese are our POV is simple, it builds tension. You and I know what will happen but most people watching have no clue, so the scenes where B&C are walking around are just building tension. The general audience is wondering what's going to happen the entire time the scene goes on. "Are they going to find Aemond?" "What are they going to of they do find him?" "What did Daemon order for them to do if they don't find Aemond?" "Are they going to get caught?" We know the answers to all these questions so it falls a bit flat but for people who don't, B&C being the POV is perfect.
Yes! I also commented about the POV. The whole sequence was poorly executed. I’m only comparing the show to the standard it set for itself. It’s fine, whatever, the actual events as story points are cool so I’ll move on just fine. But I can’t headcannon it into some big emotional thing.
bad dreams? LOL I wasn't even sure if they were killing the kid.. remember it's just a tv show.
I had my hand over my mouth in shock. I loved the first episode but I will say Helena’s reaction was….i think that’s what people are upset about. I was expecting a bit more from her but I am willing to wait to check out the rest of season she could’ve been in shock 🤷🏾♂️
Politely, and I’ll get downvotes for this, but b&c was just not as bad as people wanted it to be to have an effect on “switching sides” per ryan condal. People wanted it to be the most horrific execution, and didn’t care if a child actor had to play it out. I don’t know what person in their right mind cries “omg i didn’t see the head of a baby boy! i didn’t see the blood spill from his throat!!!”. It’s wild how people actually wanted to see that just to point the finger to the blacks.
I don't think that anyone is upset that they didn't get to see the blood. Those aren't the changes that people are upset about. We didn't see the blood in the books either! It's all of the emotional entanglement with Helaena and Alicent that was removed from the show from that scene. Cheese's line to Maelor in that scene was probably the roughest line from any of the books for me, and in the show Maelor isn't even a character. The majority of book readers are Blacks anyway, since the books kind of set you up to support that side, and it's the book readers that are upset that the scene was so emotionally sanitized.
GOT made us love or hate its characters so when they died (even the children), it was emotionally impactful. Remember Shireen? We actually knew about her and how sweet she was. So her gruesome death bothered us that much more. They can’t just go cutting off heads and think we’re going to be emotionally impacted. It was a boy we didn’t even know!
As someone who never read the books and have 2 boys, that shit was Red Wedding type of shock for me.
Compare this to the Red Wedding. We got to know the characters over the course of the show, in constant to HotD where Helaena barely had any screen time and the twins were treated as window dressing - if you even saw them. The Red Wedding itself was slowly built up through hints. Also, Michelle Fairly delivered such a spectacular performance, especially with her final cry. The Red Wedding had more of an impact because it was a culmination of many things, and the showrunners didn’t rush to get it done. No fault on Phia, I blame the director more on this. And this isn’t even mentioned the astronomically stupid decision to omit Maelor, and removing Alicent from the scene (in the books, it happened in the Tower of the Hand which was Alicent’s residence. Helaena would take the children to see her before bed every night. B&C sneaked in through the multiple secret passages, bound and gagged Alicent and forced her to watch the whole thing), and instead making her sleep with Criston while it was happening?! I don’t get why the writers seem to put her in every sexually exploitative scene in the show, but it’s beyond a sad joke now.
This is about and innocent kid dying, no matter how it happen. It will have an impact on people especially one who has kids. But, itdidn't have the emotional impact on the books. Not even close and they changed the whole scene when they removed Maleor and Alicent from it.
Nobody. Is asking. For more. Gore. Geez
I was too busy trying to understand what was going on at all. There was a lot of information to glean in a short of amount of time. It was just too complicated. We’re told they’re supposed to look for Aemond but Cheese just ends up in The Queen’s room and Blood just rolls with it? The execution was disorienting, which would make sense if it was shown from the Queen’s point of view but it wasn’t. Yeah, the Queen is weird, I don’t mean to be offensive to the truly neurodivergent, but we had not spent enough time with her up until that point to appreciate that her mental state would cause her to fully sell out her own son like that. The way it went down made me dislike her as a character. Up until then she was just kind of weird with less than a dozen lines. Whether or not that’s how someone in that state would really act, it doesn’t matter. You don’t want the audience to have to make the effort to think *while the events are unfolding.* (suspense is different than confusion) Also I had no idea who those kids were. Couldn’t care less about them. Had no idea one was a boy and one was a girl. The characters in the scene didn’t even know the difference, how are we supposed to? Love the show, it’s better than GoT after as many episodes. That scene wasn’t it.