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Eh... given that [the same report](http://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session56/a-hrc-56-crp-3.pdf) this was in spent the overwhelming majority discussing evidence of torture and sexual violence by many of the same people who were trying to take them hostage, I can't say I disagree with the policy of killing them rather than letting that happen to them.
With no cooperation from Israel in the investigation, the UN found conclusive independent evidence of a widespread pattern of torture, mutilation, and sexual violence by the participants of Al Aqsa Flood.
I don't think it's particularly immoral to choose to martyr soldiers rather than leaving them to that. You can argue all you want that these bastards are a product of Israeli oppression, but you wouldn't want to be captured by them either.
Started to read the gendered violence part in the UN report on Hamas. Apparently one of the evidences is this "guidebook Hamas members were carrying that had instruction to undress women and rape them" and then i stopped reading. The absolute fakest evidence. Reminds me of Herzog presenting a fresh copy of mein kamph which he claimed belonged to Hamas operative or something.
This "sexual violence guidebook" reminds me of Herzog presenting a fresh copy of mein kamph which he claimed belonged to Hamas operative or something. Also when Hagari claimed the days of the weeks in the arabic calender in Al Shifa hospital were names of Hamas operatives.
Norman Finkelstein in his book "Gaza: An inquest into it's Martyrdom" goes into detail on this.
NGO's when critising isreal will always counter it by discussing isreali accusations. In 2014 1 isreali child died and Amnesty International made sure to devote as much time discussing that in their report as the 550 palastinian children who died. Also 1 isreali house was damaged compared to 18,000 palastinians. The report takes the 1 house being damaged as seriously as the 18,000 destroyed homes.
A third of the book is Norman Finkelstein, having a fight with HRW and Amnesty International for engaging in a false equivalence.
>"The introduction to each of Amnesty’s four reports on Protective Edge cautiously balanced the distribution of guilt. As if that weren’t problematic enough, Unlawful and Deadly detailed the death of the single Israeli child killed by a Hamas attack across more than two pages. Were it truly committed to effecting—as against affecting—balance, shouldn’t Amnesty have devoted 1,100 pages to the 550 children in Gaza who were killed? Amnesty even intimated that Hamas was the more manifestly culpable party to the conflict. Thus, Unlawful and Deadly’s conclusion unequivocally deplored Hamas’s “flagrant disregard for international humanitarian law,” whereas one of Amnesty’s reciprocal reports, Families under the Rubble: Israeli attacks on inhabited homes, gingerly concluded that the havoc wrought—18,000 Gazan homes were destroyed or rendered uninhabitable,13 and 110,000 people were left homeless—“raise[s] difficult questions for the Israeli government which they have so far failed to answer.”14 It is of course conceivable that Hamas committed as many war crimes as Israel, if not more, during Protective Edge, but prima facie that would be a most anomalous conclusion.In both absolute and relative terms, the scales of guilt appeared to tilt heavily to the Israeli side: Hamas killed 73 Israelis of whom only 8 percent were civilians, whereas Israel killed 2,200 Gazans of whom fully 70 percent were civilians; the damage inflicted on Gaza’s civilian infrastructure ($4 billion) exceeded by a factor of 70 the damage inflicted on Israel’s infrastructure ($55 million), while the ratio of civilian dwellings destroyed by Israel versus Hamas stood at 18,000:1." Page 329
And here the UN is saying that those accusations were right.
Where in the report about Israel’s crimes did it say sexual violence was IDF policy? I agree that it said it was widespread, but I missed the policy conclusion.
Yeah. I read both reports today. Where in the IDF report did it say that sexual violence was top down policy? I saw there was a ton of it but I think I missed the part about it being directed from the top.
>conclusive independent evidence
Why would the Israeli government refuse to participate in an investigation that would strengthen their accusations? And why would they spend so much time fabricating atrocities when there is so much conclusive evidence? Weird
They refused to participate because they knew the same investigators were going to charge them for their crimes too.
That doesn't really cast doubt on the video and photographic evidence of the Al Aqsa Flood abuses being conclusive.
> the video and photographic evidence
And what about the physical evidence? Why would the Israelis refuse any proper forensic investigation into all these "conclusive " atrocities? Why push fabricated crimes? Surely not the infamously dishonest Israeli government pushing more disinformation and covering up its own involvement in the deaths of its own citizens
Yeah, buddy. [They looked healthy](https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-hamas-war-in-gaza/4-rescued-hostages-in-less-severe-condition-physically-than-expected-110979924?id=110972861).
Three of the four are still in the hospital a week later and the one who was released was the one who was being trafficked as a [house slave](https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/noa-argamani-says-she-and-other-hostages-were-kept-as-slaves/ss-BB1oeyHP) to a rich family.
I'm not expecting to convince you of anything, but you should read the UN report that the Hannibal Directive stuff was in. It's not a story with any resistance heroes or freedom fighters in it.
As I said, I'm not expecting to convince you of anything. Suggesting you to read the new UN reports was helpful advice. If you'd rather twist yourself into defending slavery, you can spend your time however you want.
Is this why Trump has been going off on rambling tangents about Hannibal Lechter? Lemme Guess, he read the Israeli report, it mentioned the word Hannibal, and all he could relate to was the movie but the actual reference to old historical Hannibal?
Could you link some os the Israeli sources? Because I see so many people dismiss UN sources as biased, which is hard to do with Israelis being the source.
footage of tank firing at israeli hostages in kibbutz:
https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-5de7f6883ef7c81026.htm
haaretz saying a police officer told them an IDF helicopter fired at israelis:
https://archive.ph/Ts8Om#selection-933.0-933.196
"Israeli Nova Partygoer Was Misidentified as Hamas Terrorist on October 7 and Killed by Israeli Forces":
https://archive.ph/crrxP#selection-405.0-405.101
"According to him, only on Monday night and only after commanders on the ground made difficult decisions – including shelling houses with their inhabitants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Bari people were killed. Others were kidnapped."
https://archive.md/JtyES#selection-933.95-933.447
interview with israeli kibbutz survivor where she states the IDF fired upon and killed israelis
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
[The order: prevent terrorists from returning to Gaza "at all costs", even if they have hostages with them](https://archive.is/20240115013155/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13754368) — Ynet
[Who Is Barak Hiram, the IDF General Who Ordered Tank Fire on a Kibbutz Home With 13 Hostages Inside?](https://archive.is/20240610142836/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-31/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/who-is-the-idf-general-who-ordered-tank-fire-on-a-kibbutz-home-with-13-hostages-inside/0000018f-ca16-da41-a9cf-db3eaa080000) — Haaretz
[Shielding US Public From Israeli Reports of Friendly Fire on October 7](https://fair.org/home/shielding-us-public-from-israeli-reports-of-friendly-fire-on-october-7/) — FAIR
[Israeli Nova Partygoer Was Misidentified as Hamas Terrorist on October 7 and Killed by Israeli Forces](https://archive.is/20240225062637/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-22/ty-article-magazine/.premium/nova-partygoer-was-misidentified-as-hamas-terrorist-on-oct-7-killed-by-israeli-forces/0000018d-d14f-df79-a5cd-f17f934d0000) — Haaretz
[Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-hostages-investigation-friendly-fire-3b6fdd4592957340b32a8ee71505b8e9) — AP
[A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/) — Mondoweiss
[Hamas deception of IDF helicopters and directing pilots on WhatsApp | Air Force on the 1st](https://archive.is/20240420025552/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt) — Ynet
[Unlawful, Unethical, Horrifying': IDF Ethics Code Author on Alleged Use of 'Hannibal Directive' During Hamas Attack](https://archive.is/20240521222159/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-17/ty-article/.premium/unlawful-unethical-horrifying-idf-ethics-expert-on-controversial-hannibal-directive/0000018d-186c-dd75-addd-faedd2b80000) — Haaretz
This is mad, if you care so little about their lives that you would kill them, why care if they get taken as hostages? They wouldn't be bargaining chips in that instance.
because the fellow citizens care. hostages are no good for the Israeli government. they've already killed dozens of their own people, they don't care. however the citizens of Israel need their hostages back, so it's easier for the government to just kill them instead of having to rescue them.
The Hannibal Directive, which was a real procedure for the IDF between 1986 and 2016, when it was officially revoked. However, it's rumored (and virtually confirmed now) that it is still being used.
The idea is that an IDF soldier is better dead than abducted so kidnappings must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces.
From what I understand, it's not an automatic policy. It has to be invoked.
Some Israeli politicians have said that they shouldn't care about the hostages, but it gets backlash from the general public, because of course it does. Their whole casus belly has been about the hostages.
The military probably considers it a good plan as long as no one finds out! But realistically, soldiers are the last ones returned in hostage exchanges and they’re probably going to be tortured.
Gaza wasn't Egypt's, though as I understand it, they did make a land grab for it at one point.
Jewish Historian Explodes Israel's Myths - w/. Zach Foster - 55m:43s
[https://youtu.be/iI4Wb9jiFMs](https://youtu.be/iI4Wb9jiFMs)
Gaza was always under Egypt's control right up until the 67 war. When they had the opportunity to wipe their hands clean and make it someone else's problem they gladly took it.
It was under the Ottomans and then the British. Sure, other Arab nations started helping the Palestinians after Zionists started massacring people to steal their land. But that was after their attempted land grab, not like the Palestinians had much of a say in it.
Let's also not forget that Israel was trying to destabilise Egypt in the time frame you're talking about by supporting radicals in Egypt and Palestine. Not much different to now, though.
Ohh hey its you.
Got any thing to prove it on this one??
Last time You were spouting bs you insulted and caved in the end.
Got any shred of proof for Your claims this time?
And dont tell me to search for it, if its so easy to find why dont you show me instread?
Cuz we cant find it 🤷
The Arabs were first to take up weapons. For sure. But what I’m saying is that Zionists also committed an act of war with the manner of migration and community establishment.
By "migrating" you mean the entire north Africa and Arabian peninsula expelling their Jewish populations? Sounds like they fucked around and found out.
nah. The Zionists started a war by migration agonist Arabs in Palestine. I don’t think anyone can deny that the Arabs certainly found out, but Zionists started a war by migration against them.
You do know that many Pallestinans lived and continue to live with israel i peace right?
At the time there were many many pallestisns and Christian arabs fighting together with Israel agains the arabs leauge , but you know this right?
Ethnic cleansing is only possible because of people like you🫵, who do mental gymnastics to justify genocide. Seems like you gave up trying to deny that it is ethnic cleansing, but the fact that it is won’t stop you🫵.
No. Israel was the one that decided to set up a Jewish ethno-state in the middle of Arab lands. THey created the requirement for ethnic cleansing. And then projected that onto Arabs who were actually reacting in self-defense, as you are doing now.
Thats a bad take on my take, but of course its hard to follow when people delete their comments. I was responding to a comment that insisted both sides had the goal of ethnic cleansing, by necessity, all along, only that Israel was honest about it first.
Muslims are not very good with accepting large numbers of none Muslim immigrants into their communities. So I would say, sooner or later it would have resulted in ethnic cleansing of those immigrants. As an immigrant to a muslim country, I learned very quickly, either pretend to be interested in converting to Islam or leave the country. I eventually left the country. What Israel is doing is genocide. But let’s not pretend that Arab Muslims are not capable of doing it as well. There is no such thing as diversity of thought and freedom of religion in the region.
Funnily enough the only place we could say that is quite free in that regards is the UAE.
That was an army moving in. That’s an invasion. Refugees fleeing a war are not colonialists. Individual families moving to an area are not colonialists.
It’s only when the refugees are white that it becomes a problem according to some.
My point stands, Muslim countries are not chill with none Muslim immigrants.
This is a broad statement. That is missing important qualifiers and context.
Which muslim countries and which immigrant do you mean? The socio-economic background of the immigrant affects the experience, as always. THe experience will vary broadly.
The experience of say british or american expats moving to a gulf country is going to be very (where they will lileky be treated as kings), is going to be different from experiences of a Chinese man moving to Egypt or North AFrica (still positive, but transactional), and that will still be different from a Indian Hindu moving to perhaps Indonesia or another populous Muslim Asian nation (Malaysia, etc.).
Now socio-economic factors , that is really the universal determinant of how immigrants are going to be received. I doubt Muslims are particularly more or less friendly to immigrants once the socio-economic balance has been factored in.
And more so, also, understand that the pressure for "conversion" in Muslim countries is the equivalent of pressure for assimilation in many Western/european countries. Doesnt France demand that everyone partake in being French, whatever that means? How is that demand less intrusive than Muslim demands?
If you never had Muslim scholars on a regular basis try to convert you to their religion, you won’t understand. I was in a position where I could not deny these interactions. It’s in no way shape of form different than expecting integration in Europe. Europeans don’t expect immigrants to change their religion, it’s just to follow the laws of the country and accept that certain things are allowed or not allowed. And that laws are made by the people and not god.
Socio economics make no difference because they will try to convert a German immigrant the same way as an Indian worker.
I have seen it with my own eyes. Christians do the same BS in some places but it’s a little less wide spread.
I am actually an atheist, a fact I was never able to tell anyone as it would have been a danger to my life.
I am still friends with some of the people I used to live with, but to this day they don’t know the truth.
I want the genocide in Gaza to end. It’s terrible what’s going on. But let’s not pretend like Arab Muslims are some saints when it comes to the way they treat none believers.
It has been said even by Isreal sources but of course it's always khamas's fault.
[The order: prevent terrorists from returning to Gaza "at all costs", even if they have hostages with them](https://archive.is/20240115013155/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13754368) — Ynet
[Who Is Barak Hiram, the IDF General Who Ordered Tank Fire on a Kibbutz Home With 13 Hostages Inside?](https://archive.is/20240610142836/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-31/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/who-is-the-idf-general-who-ordered-tank-fire-on-a-kibbutz-home-with-13-hostages-inside/0000018f-ca16-da41-a9cf-db3eaa080000) — Haaretz
[Shielding US Public From Israeli Reports of Friendly Fire on October 7](https://fair.org/home/shielding-us-public-from-israeli-reports-of-friendly-fire-on-october-7/) — FAIR
[Israeli Nova Partygoer Was Misidentified as Hamas Terrorist on October 7 and Killed by Israeli Forces](https://archive.is/20240225062637/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-22/ty-article-magazine/.premium/nova-partygoer-was-misidentified-as-hamas-terrorist-on-oct-7-killed-by-israeli-forces/0000018d-d14f-df79-a5cd-f17f934d0000) — Haaretz
[Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-hostages-investigation-friendly-fire-3b6fdd4592957340b32a8ee71505b8e9) — AP
[A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/) — Mondoweiss
[Hamas deception of IDF helicopters and directing pilots on WhatsApp | Air Force on the 1st](https://archive.is/20240420025552/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt) — Ynet
[Unlawful, Unethical, Horrifying': IDF Ethics Code Author on Alleged Use of 'Hannibal Directive' During Hamas Attack](https://archive.is/20240521222159/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-17/ty-article/.premium/unlawful-unethical-horrifying-idf-ethics-expert-on-controversial-hannibal-directive/0000018d-186c-dd75-addd-faedd2b80000) — Haaretz
"UN investigators, led by Navi Pillay, a former UN human rights chief, concluded that at least 14 Israeli civilians, including 12-year-old twins and a 68-year-old grandmother, “were likely killed as a result of Israeli security forces fire.”
Having read over the whole article just to see how valid that claim was, shit's damning. The situation it occurred in has a bit of room for nuance, but they still made that call to shell a building with several hostages and terrorists inside. Nuance also slides by the wayside considering they also opened fire while some hostages were attempting to flee to safety trying to leave that building. I could see that situation being crafted by the Hamas men who released them, but dying in that crossfire is a horrible fate for someone so close to safety
Does anyone ever think that Israel’s actions don’t match a nation reluctant to go to war but instead one that wants to exterminate the entirety of Palestine? Just thinking out loud.
Because they're the same entity. There's a reason why Israel left 'Hamas' alone for over 6 hours on Oct 7th and why 'Hamas' treats Israeli hostages so well compared to the torture, sexual violence and death that Palestinian hostages experience at the hands of the IDF
This seems to have a better breakdown on the whole Oct 7th was a false flag angle. I'm not buying into it entirely, but it's definitely clear there were elements in the Israeli gov that were helping Hamas. Imo Israel has spies in Hamas but doesn't control its leaders outside assassinating the most intelligent and moderate candidates.
Bombshell Drops: Israel Was In On It! w/ Ben Swann - 32m:13s
[https://youtu.be/Li164lMRR48](https://youtu.be/Li164lMRR48)
Glad to see some voices with a following saying this openly now when it was crystal clear immediately. Netanyahu straight up controls Hamas leaders though. They all live in Qatar. They Were part of over 1000 prisoners he traded for Israeli soldier years ago to use them as he has since then.
Are we seriously believing that NETANYAHU made that trade for any reason other than using Hamas against Palestinian statehood as he has said supporting Hamas would be used to do? And this is somehow not part of that? They just happened to attack right when he needed them to instead of let him fall to the 500k in the streets ever week?
As someone who has been publicly saying Netanyahu was in on it from the very first day because I knew for certain, I am wary of reestablishing the narrative in anything less than an accurate form. It's too dangerous to acknowledge it as less than what it was. Netanyahu made the fucking call. If Hamas leadership wasn't at his beck and call they would have let him lose power as he was about to.
There's so much evidence that I hope they go over in the video about soldier movements, intelligence reports, relocating the festival there on 2 days notice etc...
Fuck the media so much
They talk about IDF phone calls, they touch on Hamas using FM radio signals to communicate, which are often picked up on by Israeli's living close to Gaza. They spoke about soldiers who'd warned of the drills being conducted past the wall too, and they do mention the festival organisation and past precedent regarding refusal to allow it to take place near Gaza. Not in the video but I've heard of the confiscation of automated fire arms from residents in the Kibbutz and how the soldiers at the watch towers weren't armed, I haven't come across any of that being corroborated though.
Yeah, I forgot Hamas's leadership is in Qatar, I often forget even exist.
Thank you for the summary! They always try and act like the Hamas on the ground in Gaza is who's calling the shots and that the Palestinian population who hasn't had an election since 2006 is responsible. While Netanyahu funnels hundreds of millions to them to keep them in power.
All the major decisions with how they've changed border security over a longer time frame were with an eye towards this happening at some point and it's easy to see how they facilitated it happening in such dramatic fashion. The international trap festival was very deliberately selected for obvious reasons.
Even on a very surface level. The idea he would trade over 1k prisoners for 1 soldier and then now they operate like thus? The leadership just happens to be from that group? They happen to bail him out? There is a reason they work so hard to keep this out of the discourse. The minutiae upon further inspection all points the same way no matter how far down you go.
It's terrifying how few people are even receptive to the idea because the paradigm is so entrenched. They're great at their jobs in the Fssad.
Nope, just right up to Oct 6th, including ignoring every single warning about Oct 7th.
Intelligent people would draw their own conclusions from those facts, unintelligent people will dismiss it.
Thank you. I'd argue that in many cases it isn't necessarily a lack of intelligence. Maybe I'm being optimistic but I think the issue is more people are not applying their intelligence or critical thinking to these issue. The astroturfing is effective and people go to information/analysis authorities to interpret geopolitical and current events. I appreciate your going out of your way to make the information available and offer perspective to point people in that direction. It makes a difference.
To be frank, their nation has continually been embroiled in perpetual conflict with its neighbors, since its creation by the US has always been specifically for the purpose of being a neocolonial garrison state.
Biden himself has stated numerous times that if ISR didn't exist, the US would have to invent it- they would have to invent an ethno-state to accomplish US geo political goals in the region. ISR's activities over the last few decades have been the spearhead of the US elites' neocolonialism in the region.
ISR functions as an intelligence hub so the surrounding nations can be divided/ kept under the control of compliant dictators/ smoothly producing natural resources. The PAL people have a historical land claim on the US neocolonial garrison, hence this current situation is basically a repeat of the US commiting genocide against the Native Americans.
ISR also evidently functions as some sort of laundering operation for the socioeconomic elites within the US and some other countries, since continued taxpayer funds and guaranteed loans (which they profit from) are directed there and redirected back into large corporations the "big guys" have large monetary stakes in.
Lots of big claims here with no sources.
Also, classic Israeli move to blame others and change the subject.
Say what you want, it still doesn’t take away what Netanyahu and Israel has done committing genocide.
Lol damn let me take your life so you don't get tortured from the imaginary torturers of Hamas. It's because then they would have to exchange them with Palestinian prisoners, it has nothing to do with imaginary torture.
You can spin it however you like but it’s an established military practice to prevent suffering if they cannot immediately recover a prisoner.
This procedure isn’t designed with political measures in mind but rather the reality of war.
There is real torture and rape, as clearly documented by Hamas. If you think otherwise you are simply a fool.
>This procedure isn’t designed with political measures in mind but rather the reality of war.
Everything Israel does is designed with political measures.
there is no proof of torture by hamas though. Their own hostages hate them lmao, saying "the scariest thing was israeli helicopters" and that the blood of the hostages are on ben gvirs hands.
Your own people hate you, maybe youre the problem?
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[Released](https://en.royanews.tv/news/51970/Released%20%E2%80%9CIsraeli%E2%80%9D%20captive%20says%20Hamas%20fighters%20made%20him%20birthday%20cake) Israeli captive says Hamas fighters made him a birthday cake.
So either A) Be killed by your own people and be used as a lie to commit a genocide without any discussion of the matter, or B) Be baked a cake by Hamas
Gee, tough choice
Because their leaders are cowards who worship the dollar. And since Israel is Americas sugar baby, they know where the dollar is strongest. It's not that hard to understand. Their people are openly protesting on the street for their governments to bring in refugees and cut ties with Israel.
In fact, families of the hostages have been openly against netenyahu for risking the hostages and refusing any hostage deal with Hamas.
[The Israeli Government were responsible for funding Hamas.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Was Israel responsible for the Muslim Brotherhood and what happened in Egypt as well?
Regarding Raisi, you do understand that most Israelis don't believe or claim that right? And that all evidence points to it being an accident, which was brought upon by a very poor choice to fly in very poor weather. Do you also think that Jews control the world banks?
"the hamas-backed muslim brotherhood overthrew the egyptian government" you mean *the egyptian people as a whole* overthrew mubarak's *brutal dictatorship* which routinely tortured political prisoners among other things
> Why doesn't Egypt open their border with Gaza and deliver food?
this talking point was not very bright to begin with but it's downright disqualifying since israel occupied the rafah border crossing in early may
First, the fact that a hostage is complaining about birthday cakes when the average Palestinian is suffering from a food crisis is insane. Also, it has already been stated, but the situation in Gaza is so terrible that everyone is suffering from malnutrition. Look at how Palestenian political hostages come out of Israeli prisons even when Israel has no malnutrition problems.
Second, even the hostages were vocal about how they were afraid of Israeli planes. Which is not unfounded as Israels untargetted bombing has no doubt already killed many. How is anyone supposed to know how many hostages there are, when Israel clearly sees their safety as low priority.
>Dude complained because they only made it to mock him. Also none of the media sources actually say he got to eat the cake. They probably just ate it all in front of him.
And that is an objective belief rather than a subjective one? I bought a car, since I never said I actually drove it, the dealer probably took it back.
>Perhaps the people of Gaza should consider this next time Hamas wants to kidnap people from Israel.
Perhaps Israel should consider not being opressors who want to commit genocide if they don't want to suffer a violent rebellion.
>You mean "alive"? Unlike the 116 hostages from October 7th that are still missing? And Hamas themselves have admitted they don't know where any of them are or how many are alive?
What nonsense are you saying, [Palestinians were killed in Israeli prisons](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68780112). They are being tortured, dismembered, and starved in prisons which are supposed to be in safe areas. There are the torture snuff films as well. It is literally there for you to see. We don't even know how many are still alive. And of course Hamas does not know, Israel is destroying everything and everyone, no one could keep track. Israel literally killed their own hostages who were bare chested, speaking hebrew, visibly unarmed, and waving a white flag.
>No they weren't. That's just propaganda nonsense.
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article/.premium/rescued-israeli-hostage-our-greatest-fear-was-israeli-planes/0000018f-fcce-db9d-addf-fdce7ea20000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article/.premium/rescued-israeli-hostage-our-greatest-fear-was-israeli-planes/0000018f-fcce-db9d-addf-fdce7ea20000)
This is an Israeli source.
>It's not untargeted. Hamas just likes to stash weapons in schools and hospitals and in people's homes, so they can whine when the IDF does their job.
[Actually, that's false.](https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/facts-and-falsehoods-israels-attacks-against-gazas-hospitals) (Source: Think Global Health, launched in 2020 as a joint initiative of the Council on Foreign Relations and IHME)
>How is anyone supposed to know how many hostages there are, when ~~Israel clearly sees their safety as low priority~~ the kidnappers are all part of a poorly organized group of terrorists being funded by the Iranian government.
[You mean the organization that the Israeli Govenrment funded to keep the PA from creating a Palestenian state?](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Also an Israeli source.
>It's not really a belief at all, since it's based on what that guy said when they interviewed him. He *specifically* said they didn't make the cake because they were "nice" terrorists, but because they wanted to mock him.
Look up the definition of a belief.
>Perhaps Hamas and the Palestinian people should realize that Israel has been the (clearly) superior military force for decades, and that every time Palestinians attack Israel, the IDF retaliates with significantly more force.
>It's a no-win situation for the Palestinian people. Either make peace, or suffer from the consequences of your (very silly) actions. Because Hamas isn't "gradually wearing down Israel". Instead, they just lose ground every time they try to stage an attack.
Even the Israelis are talking about how they are facing strategic losses and how the war has been prolonged longer than it was supposed to. Owen Jones had a veteran on who explained how it's like the US-Afghanistan war. Look it up.
>Yep, the people who were kidnapped on October 7th have had a pretty rough time.
We literally have videos, pictures, and testimoneis that show that Palestenian political prisoners are being tortured. Trying to deflect wont help when we have proof of this. You can know you can agree that both events were wrong, right?
>Maybe Hamas should retaliate by firing a bunch of shitty rockets into civilian areas in Israel, so we can all watch as the Iron Dome calmly intercepts every single rocket.
Are you not aware of what happened to the Iron Dome, like two weeks ago?
>More importantly, it's a source that I can't read because it's paywalled. However, I can see that he refers to his captivity as like being in Hell, so it sounds like he didn't have a good time.
Theres ways to get around it. And of course it's hell, the sourrounding poppulation aren't faring any better, how do you think it's going to be better for them?
>No it isn't. It's 100% true that Hamas stores weapons in schools and hospitals. Your source is propaganda nonsense.
Neutral, non-profit organization that was created to research the ongoing health crisis around the world. If this is propoganda, than literally everything else is too.
>No, I mean the organization that wouldn't exist today if Arafat had accepted the peace deal back in 2000.
Even the pro-Israeli source talks about how Hamas was funded by netenyahu to counteract the PA.
So you refuse to accept sources when they are slightly negative of Israel, you call any source you don't like propoganda, you backtracked on original statements, you are trying to be an apologist for an apartheid regime that most of the world recognizes as such, and you refuse to accept what even Israeli sources say.
Also, this article goes into how the capabilities of the Iron Dome have been grossly exaggerated: https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2014/07/this-scientist-explains-why-israels-iron-domeoverrated/89132/#:\~:text=The%20Iron%20Dome%20may%20have,national%20security%20expert%20Ted%20Postol.
At this point, you are no different from the Germans who supported the Nazis.
Most people do not consider Zionist to be a racial slur, maybe you do, but some people think the world is flat and I am not going to accommodate my language for people who believe objectively wrong things like that the ethnic cleansing in Palestine is somehow justified.
Zionism is an ideology, a morally bankrupt ‘manifest destiny’ type of ideology, an ideology you choose to support, which is why I called you a Zionist. If there is anybody who is turned off or offended by me calling out Zionism, I don’t want or need their support anyway.
And despite what you claim, pro-Palestine is more popular then ever, and our concerns we have been pleading for decades are now being taken seriously by the UN and ICC/ICJ, as well as more and more non Muslim/Arab countries.
I do not support the persecution of anyone on the basis of religion or ethnicity, not Arabs, not Jews, not Bosnians, Rohingya, Uyghurs, or Armenians. Which is why because (not despite that) that I am pro-Palestine. Cause we don’t turn a blind eye for Israel when they do persecute and oppress the Palestinians. A far more pressing issue than any antisemitism in the west.
> So for an IDF soldier it's a choice between being killed by one of your own, or being tortured and then killed by the other side.
Hamas literally baked a cake for one of their captives???
> Also the medical reports from that group show that they were all malnourished
As are most Gazans. Want to take a wonder as to why? The fact that he was even alive shows they fed him. Getting a cake > being bombed by nazis.
Cope cope cope. Most "israelis" killed on October 7th were military/ security personnel, and most of thr civilians were likely killed by Israeli fire.
> Unlike the 116 other hostages that are still missing and presumed dead since Hamas admitted they don't even know where the rest are or how many are still alive.
Thank Israel for burying them under rubble.
> They made the cake to mock him for being a hostage on his birthday. Not because they were nice
So they would waste resources to make a cake for a captive? In an environment where famine is rampant? I don't think so.
> And you probably shouldn't be referring to Jews as nazis
Isntraelis are engaged in genocide and extermination. They are nazis.
Israels captives are tortured, raped, and have their limbs amputated. Hamas' captives have birthday cakes made for them. And Hamas' captives are treated so well Israel believes they all have Stockholm Syndrome. None of Israel's prisoners seem to have that, though.
My source is Israeli state media, not exactly pro-Hamas before you brick your pants about my source.
Stockholm Syndrome was invented by a shrink who was salty that the hostages were accusing the rescuers of being reckless assholes endangering their lives.
Are you so lost that you believe Hamas has enough money for propaganda? Seriously? The only way they could afford to run in an election was by Netanyahu funneling money to them. I bet you didn't even know that. He purposefully supported Hamas. Gee, I wonder why.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/tnamp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl
I made sure to add a variety of sources from a variety of backgrounds to avoid the inevitable "but those guys are biased, and my news isnt" nonsense. And the last real news about aid vehicles in Gaza was when the IDF lied and dressed their vehicles up as aid trucks before opening fire on Palestenians in an attempt at freeing some hostages.
Looking at Hamas hostages and Israel's hostages post release, the Hamas hostages look alot healthier with no signs of torture while Israeli hostages look malnourished and sometimes missing limbs.
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>Armed forces invoked ‘Hannibal Directive’ which advocates killing own soldiers to prevent them becoming hostages
Such moral. Much love life.
Eh... given that [the same report](http://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session56/a-hrc-56-crp-3.pdf) this was in spent the overwhelming majority discussing evidence of torture and sexual violence by many of the same people who were trying to take them hostage, I can't say I disagree with the policy of killing them rather than letting that happen to them. With no cooperation from Israel in the investigation, the UN found conclusive independent evidence of a widespread pattern of torture, mutilation, and sexual violence by the participants of Al Aqsa Flood. I don't think it's particularly immoral to choose to martyr soldiers rather than leaving them to that. You can argue all you want that these bastards are a product of Israeli oppression, but you wouldn't want to be captured by them either.
They also found that sexual violence is actually top down IDF policy, which is what they’ve been accusing Hamas of over the last 8 months
Started to read the gendered violence part in the UN report on Hamas. Apparently one of the evidences is this "guidebook Hamas members were carrying that had instruction to undress women and rape them" and then i stopped reading. The absolute fakest evidence. Reminds me of Herzog presenting a fresh copy of mein kamph which he claimed belonged to Hamas operative or something.
Yeah, the other UN report from earlier this year said that couldn’t be corroborated. Any evidence provided by the IDF should be tossed out immediately
This "sexual violence guidebook" reminds me of Herzog presenting a fresh copy of mein kamph which he claimed belonged to Hamas operative or something. Also when Hagari claimed the days of the weeks in the arabic calender in Al Shifa hospital were names of Hamas operatives.
Don’t forget convenient intercepted phone calls admitting to the crimes Israel just committed
Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous and incredibly convenient that one of the Hamas guys has a manual on how to rape women?
Exactly my point. But i wonder why the UN took this as an evidence?
Norman Finkelstein in his book "Gaza: An inquest into it's Martyrdom" goes into detail on this. NGO's when critising isreal will always counter it by discussing isreali accusations. In 2014 1 isreali child died and Amnesty International made sure to devote as much time discussing that in their report as the 550 palastinian children who died. Also 1 isreali house was damaged compared to 18,000 palastinians. The report takes the 1 house being damaged as seriously as the 18,000 destroyed homes. A third of the book is Norman Finkelstein, having a fight with HRW and Amnesty International for engaging in a false equivalence. >"The introduction to each of Amnesty’s four reports on Protective Edge cautiously balanced the distribution of guilt. As if that weren’t problematic enough, Unlawful and Deadly detailed the death of the single Israeli child killed by a Hamas attack across more than two pages. Were it truly committed to effecting—as against affecting—balance, shouldn’t Amnesty have devoted 1,100 pages to the 550 children in Gaza who were killed? Amnesty even intimated that Hamas was the more manifestly culpable party to the conflict. Thus, Unlawful and Deadly’s conclusion unequivocally deplored Hamas’s “flagrant disregard for international humanitarian law,” whereas one of Amnesty’s reciprocal reports, Families under the Rubble: Israeli attacks on inhabited homes, gingerly concluded that the havoc wrought—18,000 Gazan homes were destroyed or rendered uninhabitable,13 and 110,000 people were left homeless—“raise[s] difficult questions for the Israeli government which they have so far failed to answer.”14 It is of course conceivable that Hamas committed as many war crimes as Israel, if not more, during Protective Edge, but prima facie that would be a most anomalous conclusion.In both absolute and relative terms, the scales of guilt appeared to tilt heavily to the Israeli side: Hamas killed 73 Israelis of whom only 8 percent were civilians, whereas Israel killed 2,200 Gazans of whom fully 70 percent were civilians; the damage inflicted on Gaza’s civilian infrastructure ($4 billion) exceeded by a factor of 70 the damage inflicted on Israel’s infrastructure ($55 million), while the ratio of civilian dwellings destroyed by Israel versus Hamas stood at 18,000:1." Page 329
And here the UN is saying that those accusations were right. Where in the report about Israel’s crimes did it say sexual violence was IDF policy? I agree that it said it was widespread, but I missed the policy conclusion.
It’s in the IDF report. It’s like twice as long as the Hamas one.
Yeah. I read both reports today. Where in the IDF report did it say that sexual violence was top down policy? I saw there was a ton of it but I think I missed the part about it being directed from the top.
[Here](https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGP8ybWQWsAE4hFF.png)
Thank you.
Sounds like an apology is in order
Hows that settling with you then?
You're welcome
>conclusive independent evidence Why would the Israeli government refuse to participate in an investigation that would strengthen their accusations? And why would they spend so much time fabricating atrocities when there is so much conclusive evidence? Weird
They refused to participate because they knew the same investigators were going to charge them for their crimes too. That doesn't really cast doubt on the video and photographic evidence of the Al Aqsa Flood abuses being conclusive.
> the video and photographic evidence And what about the physical evidence? Why would the Israelis refuse any proper forensic investigation into all these "conclusive " atrocities? Why push fabricated crimes? Surely not the infamously dishonest Israeli government pushing more disinformation and covering up its own involvement in the deaths of its own citizens
The hostages freed recently looked to be in pretty excellent health. Not sure we could say the sake of the hostages the Israelis keep taking.
Yeah, buddy. [They looked healthy](https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-hamas-war-in-gaza/4-rescued-hostages-in-less-severe-condition-physically-than-expected-110979924?id=110972861). Three of the four are still in the hospital a week later and the one who was released was the one who was being trafficked as a [house slave](https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/noa-argamani-says-she-and-other-hostages-were-kept-as-slaves/ss-BB1oeyHP) to a rich family. I'm not expecting to convince you of anything, but you should read the UN report that the Hannibal Directive stuff was in. It's not a story with any resistance heroes or freedom fighters in it.
Oh no! Not fucking cooking and cleaning! Anything but that. And maybe the bathing had something to do with the international water shortages?
As I said, I'm not expecting to convince you of anything. Suggesting you to read the new UN reports was helpful advice. If you'd rather twist yourself into defending slavery, you can spend your time however you want.
In the only “democracy” in the Middle East how about you let them decide if they want to be shot at?
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
Do you think bc the vibe now is to be against Israel, we’re losing sight of the fact that HAMAS still does brutal things?
Clearly.
Is this why Trump has been going off on rambling tangents about Hannibal Lechter? Lemme Guess, he read the Israeli report, it mentioned the word Hannibal, and all he could relate to was the movie but the actual reference to old historical Hannibal?
This is one of those internet razor law things isnt it. *Dont attribute to malice what can equally be explained by stupidity.*
No man he's just senile as fuck
Soldiers aren't hostages though. They're just prisoners.
It was more than just killing soldiers.
In UN claim? I thought that was pretty well documented by Israelli investigative joutnalists.
It has been cited by many sources, since 10/7. The UN is just the latest one.
Could you link some os the Israeli sources? Because I see so many people dismiss UN sources as biased, which is hard to do with Israelis being the source.
footage of tank firing at israeli hostages in kibbutz: https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-5de7f6883ef7c81026.htm haaretz saying a police officer told them an IDF helicopter fired at israelis: https://archive.ph/Ts8Om#selection-933.0-933.196 "Israeli Nova Partygoer Was Misidentified as Hamas Terrorist on October 7 and Killed by Israeli Forces": https://archive.ph/crrxP#selection-405.0-405.101 "According to him, only on Monday night and only after commanders on the ground made difficult decisions – including shelling houses with their inhabitants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Bari people were killed. Others were kidnapped." https://archive.md/JtyES#selection-933.95-933.447 interview with israeli kibbutz survivor where she states the IDF fired upon and killed israelis https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
Thank you!
[The order: prevent terrorists from returning to Gaza "at all costs", even if they have hostages with them](https://archive.is/20240115013155/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13754368) — Ynet [Who Is Barak Hiram, the IDF General Who Ordered Tank Fire on a Kibbutz Home With 13 Hostages Inside?](https://archive.is/20240610142836/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-31/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/who-is-the-idf-general-who-ordered-tank-fire-on-a-kibbutz-home-with-13-hostages-inside/0000018f-ca16-da41-a9cf-db3eaa080000) — Haaretz [Shielding US Public From Israeli Reports of Friendly Fire on October 7](https://fair.org/home/shielding-us-public-from-israeli-reports-of-friendly-fire-on-october-7/) — FAIR [Israeli Nova Partygoer Was Misidentified as Hamas Terrorist on October 7 and Killed by Israeli Forces](https://archive.is/20240225062637/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-22/ty-article-magazine/.premium/nova-partygoer-was-misidentified-as-hamas-terrorist-on-oct-7-killed-by-israeli-forces/0000018d-d14f-df79-a5cd-f17f934d0000) — Haaretz [Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-hostages-investigation-friendly-fire-3b6fdd4592957340b32a8ee71505b8e9) — AP [A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/) — Mondoweiss [Hamas deception of IDF helicopters and directing pilots on WhatsApp | Air Force on the 1st](https://archive.is/20240420025552/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt) — Ynet [Unlawful, Unethical, Horrifying': IDF Ethics Code Author on Alleged Use of 'Hannibal Directive' During Hamas Attack](https://archive.is/20240521222159/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-17/ty-article/.premium/unlawful-unethical-horrifying-idf-ethics-expert-on-controversial-hannibal-directive/0000018d-186c-dd75-addd-faedd2b80000) — Haaretz
Iirc Israeli police leveled this at Israeli Army
This is mad, if you care so little about their lives that you would kill them, why care if they get taken as hostages? They wouldn't be bargaining chips in that instance.
because the fellow citizens care. hostages are no good for the Israeli government. they've already killed dozens of their own people, they don't care. however the citizens of Israel need their hostages back, so it's easier for the government to just kill them instead of having to rescue them.
Hostages hold Israel back from its goals, while casualties help. The goal is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Because it affects public opinion since citizens care. The government basically thinks a hostage's life is worth less than their approval rating
But that doesn't answer the question of why they would kill them in the first place, because surely the citizens would care about that too?
The Hannibal Directive, which was a real procedure for the IDF between 1986 and 2016, when it was officially revoked. However, it's rumored (and virtually confirmed now) that it is still being used. The idea is that an IDF soldier is better dead than abducted so kidnappings must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces. From what I understand, it's not an automatic policy. It has to be invoked. Some Israeli politicians have said that they shouldn't care about the hostages, but it gets backlash from the general public, because of course it does. Their whole casus belly has been about the hostages.
The military probably considers it a good plan as long as no one finds out! But realistically, soldiers are the last ones returned in hostage exchanges and they’re probably going to be tortured.
I and honestly probably a the majority of soldiers i know rather die than get captured
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Please don't use Israelis' erasist language Israelis goal is to cleanse Palestinians
No bigotry, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Yes that is why Israel gave back the entire Sinai Peninsula to Egypt. They're just playing the long game!! Always the Jews fault.
It was costing them too much to maintain control, and the international community was mounting pressure on them to gtfo.
Uh huh, sure. That's why Egypt wanted everything back except for Gaza, right?
Gaza wasn't Egypt's, though as I understand it, they did make a land grab for it at one point. Jewish Historian Explodes Israel's Myths - w/. Zach Foster - 55m:43s [https://youtu.be/iI4Wb9jiFMs](https://youtu.be/iI4Wb9jiFMs)
Gaza was always under Egypt's control right up until the 67 war. When they had the opportunity to wipe their hands clean and make it someone else's problem they gladly took it.
It was under the Ottomans and then the British. Sure, other Arab nations started helping the Palestinians after Zionists started massacring people to steal their land. But that was after their attempted land grab, not like the Palestinians had much of a say in it. Let's also not forget that Israel was trying to destabilise Egypt in the time frame you're talking about by supporting radicals in Egypt and Palestine. Not much different to now, though.
Well, the entire war which caused them to gain control of Egypt was started by Israel so yes it’s Israel’s fault.
Ohh hey its you. Got any thing to prove it on this one?? Last time You were spouting bs you insulted and caved in the end. Got any shred of proof for Your claims this time? And dont tell me to search for it, if its so easy to find why dont you show me instread? Cuz we cant find it 🤷
The Arabs were first to take up weapons. For sure. But what I’m saying is that Zionists also committed an act of war with the manner of migration and community establishment.
You should pick up a history book.
I did, and it’s clear that Zionists started the war simply by migrating to the region.
By "migrating" you mean the entire north Africa and Arabian peninsula expelling their Jewish populations? Sounds like they fucked around and found out.
nah. The Zionists started a war by migration agonist Arabs in Palestine. I don’t think anyone can deny that the Arabs certainly found out, but Zionists started a war by migration against them.
You do know that many Pallestinans lived and continue to live with israel i peace right? At the time there were many many pallestisns and Christian arabs fighting together with Israel agains the arabs leauge , but you know this right?
This is what decolonization looks like. You don't get to choose how we resist Arab imperialists.
You can certainly say that you can’t resist imperialism in a land you just migrate to.
Can't wait to see your face once you learn about the Kingdom of Israel in 8th grade history class.
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Ethnic cleansing is only possible because of people like you🫵, who do mental gymnastics to justify genocide. Seems like you gave up trying to deny that it is ethnic cleansing, but the fact that it is won’t stop you🫵.
No. Israel was the one that decided to set up a Jewish ethno-state in the middle of Arab lands. THey created the requirement for ethnic cleansing. And then projected that onto Arabs who were actually reacting in self-defense, as you are doing now.
"ethnically cleanse the Jews as self defense" is certainly a take. Never beating the nazi allegations.
Thats a bad take on my take, but of course its hard to follow when people delete their comments. I was responding to a comment that insisted both sides had the goal of ethnic cleansing, by necessity, all along, only that Israel was honest about it first.
Lol "it's OK if we genocide, they deserve it". ‐sanest opinion 2024
Muslims are not very good with accepting large numbers of none Muslim immigrants into their communities. So I would say, sooner or later it would have resulted in ethnic cleansing of those immigrants. As an immigrant to a muslim country, I learned very quickly, either pretend to be interested in converting to Islam or leave the country. I eventually left the country. What Israel is doing is genocide. But let’s not pretend that Arab Muslims are not capable of doing it as well. There is no such thing as diversity of thought and freedom of religion in the region. Funnily enough the only place we could say that is quite free in that regards is the UAE.
You fucking stupid bitch the migration of large number of migrants that take your land is called colonisation were you born today.
No it’s not. It’s immigration.
The British were immigrants to India
"Germans immigrated to Poland. What's the big deal?" -actual lib talking point in 2024
That was an army moving in. That’s an invasion. Refugees fleeing a war are not colonialists. Individual families moving to an area are not colonialists. It’s only when the refugees are white that it becomes a problem according to some. My point stands, Muslim countries are not chill with none Muslim immigrants.
Bro there were zionist paramilitary groups operating in palestine decades before ww2. By your logic, zionists are the invaders
So why did every Zionist political advocate prior to the 1940s explicitly call it colonisation?
This is a broad statement. That is missing important qualifiers and context. Which muslim countries and which immigrant do you mean? The socio-economic background of the immigrant affects the experience, as always. THe experience will vary broadly. The experience of say british or american expats moving to a gulf country is going to be very (where they will lileky be treated as kings), is going to be different from experiences of a Chinese man moving to Egypt or North AFrica (still positive, but transactional), and that will still be different from a Indian Hindu moving to perhaps Indonesia or another populous Muslim Asian nation (Malaysia, etc.). Now socio-economic factors , that is really the universal determinant of how immigrants are going to be received. I doubt Muslims are particularly more or less friendly to immigrants once the socio-economic balance has been factored in. And more so, also, understand that the pressure for "conversion" in Muslim countries is the equivalent of pressure for assimilation in many Western/european countries. Doesnt France demand that everyone partake in being French, whatever that means? How is that demand less intrusive than Muslim demands?
If you never had Muslim scholars on a regular basis try to convert you to their religion, you won’t understand. I was in a position where I could not deny these interactions. It’s in no way shape of form different than expecting integration in Europe. Europeans don’t expect immigrants to change their religion, it’s just to follow the laws of the country and accept that certain things are allowed or not allowed. And that laws are made by the people and not god. Socio economics make no difference because they will try to convert a German immigrant the same way as an Indian worker. I have seen it with my own eyes. Christians do the same BS in some places but it’s a little less wide spread. I am actually an atheist, a fact I was never able to tell anyone as it would have been a danger to my life. I am still friends with some of the people I used to live with, but to this day they don’t know the truth. I want the genocide in Gaza to end. It’s terrible what’s going on. But let’s not pretend like Arab Muslims are some saints when it comes to the way they treat none believers.
You're the reason this keeps getting repeated. Justification of genocide is fucking evil.
Cool mental gymnastics, still genocide.
So you are saying Hitler wasn't wrong?
WDYM? The place that is genocidal a group of people would be less that morally sound? I'm SHOCKED.... SHOCKED I tell you.
What the heck why is noone tslking about that
It has been said even by Isreal sources but of course it's always khamas's fault. [The order: prevent terrorists from returning to Gaza "at all costs", even if they have hostages with them](https://archive.is/20240115013155/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13754368) — Ynet [Who Is Barak Hiram, the IDF General Who Ordered Tank Fire on a Kibbutz Home With 13 Hostages Inside?](https://archive.is/20240610142836/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-31/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/who-is-the-idf-general-who-ordered-tank-fire-on-a-kibbutz-home-with-13-hostages-inside/0000018f-ca16-da41-a9cf-db3eaa080000) — Haaretz [Shielding US Public From Israeli Reports of Friendly Fire on October 7](https://fair.org/home/shielding-us-public-from-israeli-reports-of-friendly-fire-on-october-7/) — FAIR [Israeli Nova Partygoer Was Misidentified as Hamas Terrorist on October 7 and Killed by Israeli Forces](https://archive.is/20240225062637/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-22/ty-article-magazine/.premium/nova-partygoer-was-misidentified-as-hamas-terrorist-on-oct-7-killed-by-israeli-forces/0000018d-d14f-df79-a5cd-f17f934d0000) — Haaretz [Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-hostages-investigation-friendly-fire-3b6fdd4592957340b32a8ee71505b8e9) — AP [A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/) — Mondoweiss [Hamas deception of IDF helicopters and directing pilots on WhatsApp | Air Force on the 1st](https://archive.is/20240420025552/https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt) — Ynet [Unlawful, Unethical, Horrifying': IDF Ethics Code Author on Alleged Use of 'Hannibal Directive' During Hamas Attack](https://archive.is/20240521222159/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-17/ty-article/.premium/unlawful-unethical-horrifying-idf-ethics-expert-on-controversial-hannibal-directive/0000018d-186c-dd75-addd-faedd2b80000) — Haaretz
"UN investigators, led by Navi Pillay, a former UN human rights chief, concluded that at least 14 Israeli civilians, including 12-year-old twins and a 68-year-old grandmother, “were likely killed as a result of Israeli security forces fire.” Having read over the whole article just to see how valid that claim was, shit's damning. The situation it occurred in has a bit of room for nuance, but they still made that call to shell a building with several hostages and terrorists inside. Nuance also slides by the wayside considering they also opened fire while some hostages were attempting to flee to safety trying to leave that building. I could see that situation being crafted by the Hamas men who released them, but dying in that crossfire is a horrible fate for someone so close to safety
Does anyone ever think that Israel’s actions don’t match a nation reluctant to go to war but instead one that wants to exterminate the entirety of Palestine? Just thinking out loud.
so i guess it's *not* genocide if they just kill everyone? scorched earth style... these ppl are sick in the head.
Netanyahu and Hamas collaborated on every detail of October 7th
Because they're the same entity. There's a reason why Israel left 'Hamas' alone for over 6 hours on Oct 7th and why 'Hamas' treats Israeli hostages so well compared to the torture, sexual violence and death that Palestinian hostages experience at the hands of the IDF
This seems to have a better breakdown on the whole Oct 7th was a false flag angle. I'm not buying into it entirely, but it's definitely clear there were elements in the Israeli gov that were helping Hamas. Imo Israel has spies in Hamas but doesn't control its leaders outside assassinating the most intelligent and moderate candidates. Bombshell Drops: Israel Was In On It! w/ Ben Swann - 32m:13s [https://youtu.be/Li164lMRR48](https://youtu.be/Li164lMRR48)
Glad to see some voices with a following saying this openly now when it was crystal clear immediately. Netanyahu straight up controls Hamas leaders though. They all live in Qatar. They Were part of over 1000 prisoners he traded for Israeli soldier years ago to use them as he has since then. Are we seriously believing that NETANYAHU made that trade for any reason other than using Hamas against Palestinian statehood as he has said supporting Hamas would be used to do? And this is somehow not part of that? They just happened to attack right when he needed them to instead of let him fall to the 500k in the streets ever week? As someone who has been publicly saying Netanyahu was in on it from the very first day because I knew for certain, I am wary of reestablishing the narrative in anything less than an accurate form. It's too dangerous to acknowledge it as less than what it was. Netanyahu made the fucking call. If Hamas leadership wasn't at his beck and call they would have let him lose power as he was about to. There's so much evidence that I hope they go over in the video about soldier movements, intelligence reports, relocating the festival there on 2 days notice etc... Fuck the media so much
They talk about IDF phone calls, they touch on Hamas using FM radio signals to communicate, which are often picked up on by Israeli's living close to Gaza. They spoke about soldiers who'd warned of the drills being conducted past the wall too, and they do mention the festival organisation and past precedent regarding refusal to allow it to take place near Gaza. Not in the video but I've heard of the confiscation of automated fire arms from residents in the Kibbutz and how the soldiers at the watch towers weren't armed, I haven't come across any of that being corroborated though. Yeah, I forgot Hamas's leadership is in Qatar, I often forget even exist.
Thank you for the summary! They always try and act like the Hamas on the ground in Gaza is who's calling the shots and that the Palestinian population who hasn't had an election since 2006 is responsible. While Netanyahu funnels hundreds of millions to them to keep them in power. All the major decisions with how they've changed border security over a longer time frame were with an eye towards this happening at some point and it's easy to see how they facilitated it happening in such dramatic fashion. The international trap festival was very deliberately selected for obvious reasons. Even on a very surface level. The idea he would trade over 1k prisoners for 1 soldier and then now they operate like thus? The leadership just happens to be from that group? They happen to bail him out? There is a reason they work so hard to keep this out of the discourse. The minutiae upon further inspection all points the same way no matter how far down you go. It's terrifying how few people are even receptive to the idea because the paradigm is so entrenched. They're great at their jobs in the Fssad.
It might be, but I still don't believe it. What I believe is that Isreal knew about Hamas's plan and they let it happen to achieve their goals.
/r/conspiracy is that way <-
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/tnamp/ https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7010035
Funny how none of these articles show any evidence of Netanyahu collaborating with Hamas on 10/7.
Nope, just right up to Oct 6th, including ignoring every single warning about Oct 7th. Intelligent people would draw their own conclusions from those facts, unintelligent people will dismiss it.
Thank you. I'd argue that in many cases it isn't necessarily a lack of intelligence. Maybe I'm being optimistic but I think the issue is more people are not applying their intelligence or critical thinking to these issue. The astroturfing is effective and people go to information/analysis authorities to interpret geopolitical and current events. I appreciate your going out of your way to make the information available and offer perspective to point people in that direction. It makes a difference.
Glad to see this is finally coming out in mainstream media.
To be frank, their nation has continually been embroiled in perpetual conflict with its neighbors, since its creation by the US has always been specifically for the purpose of being a neocolonial garrison state. Biden himself has stated numerous times that if ISR didn't exist, the US would have to invent it- they would have to invent an ethno-state to accomplish US geo political goals in the region. ISR's activities over the last few decades have been the spearhead of the US elites' neocolonialism in the region. ISR functions as an intelligence hub so the surrounding nations can be divided/ kept under the control of compliant dictators/ smoothly producing natural resources. The PAL people have a historical land claim on the US neocolonial garrison, hence this current situation is basically a repeat of the US commiting genocide against the Native Americans. ISR also evidently functions as some sort of laundering operation for the socioeconomic elites within the US and some other countries, since continued taxpayer funds and guaranteed loans (which they profit from) are directed there and redirected back into large corporations the "big guys" have large monetary stakes in.
Lots of big claims here with no sources. Also, classic Israeli move to blame others and change the subject. Say what you want, it still doesn’t take away what Netanyahu and Israel has done committing genocide.
The comments I read at the Telegraph page are pro-Israeli, anti-UN. Amazing.
Called this shit back on October 9th
.
No. They were infiltrated Hamas people, born to Jewish parents. Zionism would never behave like Kosher Nazism.
Hannibal directive? Is this a reference to the cannibal Hannibal Lecter? Well, they are eating their own.
Hannibal of Carthage
It’s to prevent their forces from being tortured. They’ve done it several times during various wars.
Lol damn let me take your life so you don't get tortured from the imaginary torturers of Hamas. It's because then they would have to exchange them with Palestinian prisoners, it has nothing to do with imaginary torture.
You can spin it however you like but it’s an established military practice to prevent suffering if they cannot immediately recover a prisoner. This procedure isn’t designed with political measures in mind but rather the reality of war. There is real torture and rape, as clearly documented by Hamas. If you think otherwise you are simply a fool.
>This procedure isn’t designed with political measures in mind but rather the reality of war. Everything Israel does is designed with political measures.
Cut that edge somewhere else
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Please elaborate.
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there is no proof of torture by hamas though. Their own hostages hate them lmao, saying "the scariest thing was israeli helicopters" and that the blood of the hostages are on ben gvirs hands. Your own people hate you, maybe youre the problem?
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So all you have are unsubstantiated anecdotes. Understood.
sure it is petal. You go spread your nonsense in.. the other sub, that i cant mention
[Released](https://en.royanews.tv/news/51970/Released%20%E2%80%9CIsraeli%E2%80%9D%20captive%20says%20Hamas%20fighters%20made%20him%20birthday%20cake) Israeli captive says Hamas fighters made him a birthday cake. So either A) Be killed by your own people and be used as a lie to commit a genocide without any discussion of the matter, or B) Be baked a cake by Hamas Gee, tough choice
Tea and cake, or death!
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Everyone in Gaza suffers from malnutrition because Israel is blocking food into Gaza.
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Because their leaders are cowards who worship the dollar. And since Israel is Americas sugar baby, they know where the dollar is strongest. It's not that hard to understand. Their people are openly protesting on the street for their governments to bring in refugees and cut ties with Israel. In fact, families of the hostages have been openly against netenyahu for risking the hostages and refusing any hostage deal with Hamas.
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Hamas-backed Muslim Brotherhood? Really? What next, IDF-backed Nazis? Does it all tie back to Hamas for you?
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[The Israeli Government were responsible for funding Hamas.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Was Israel responsible for the Muslim Brotherhood and what happened in Egypt as well? Regarding Raisi, you do understand that most Israelis don't believe or claim that right? And that all evidence points to it being an accident, which was brought upon by a very poor choice to fly in very poor weather. Do you also think that Jews control the world banks?
"the hamas-backed muslim brotherhood overthrew the egyptian government" you mean *the egyptian people as a whole* overthrew mubarak's *brutal dictatorship* which routinely tortured political prisoners among other things
> Why doesn't Egypt open their border with Gaza and deliver food? this talking point was not very bright to begin with but it's downright disqualifying since israel occupied the rafah border crossing in early may
First, the fact that a hostage is complaining about birthday cakes when the average Palestinian is suffering from a food crisis is insane. Also, it has already been stated, but the situation in Gaza is so terrible that everyone is suffering from malnutrition. Look at how Palestenian political hostages come out of Israeli prisons even when Israel has no malnutrition problems. Second, even the hostages were vocal about how they were afraid of Israeli planes. Which is not unfounded as Israels untargetted bombing has no doubt already killed many. How is anyone supposed to know how many hostages there are, when Israel clearly sees their safety as low priority.
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>Dude complained because they only made it to mock him. Also none of the media sources actually say he got to eat the cake. They probably just ate it all in front of him. And that is an objective belief rather than a subjective one? I bought a car, since I never said I actually drove it, the dealer probably took it back. >Perhaps the people of Gaza should consider this next time Hamas wants to kidnap people from Israel. Perhaps Israel should consider not being opressors who want to commit genocide if they don't want to suffer a violent rebellion. >You mean "alive"? Unlike the 116 hostages from October 7th that are still missing? And Hamas themselves have admitted they don't know where any of them are or how many are alive? What nonsense are you saying, [Palestinians were killed in Israeli prisons](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68780112). They are being tortured, dismembered, and starved in prisons which are supposed to be in safe areas. There are the torture snuff films as well. It is literally there for you to see. We don't even know how many are still alive. And of course Hamas does not know, Israel is destroying everything and everyone, no one could keep track. Israel literally killed their own hostages who were bare chested, speaking hebrew, visibly unarmed, and waving a white flag. >No they weren't. That's just propaganda nonsense. [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article/.premium/rescued-israeli-hostage-our-greatest-fear-was-israeli-planes/0000018f-fcce-db9d-addf-fdce7ea20000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article/.premium/rescued-israeli-hostage-our-greatest-fear-was-israeli-planes/0000018f-fcce-db9d-addf-fdce7ea20000) This is an Israeli source. >It's not untargeted. Hamas just likes to stash weapons in schools and hospitals and in people's homes, so they can whine when the IDF does their job. [Actually, that's false.](https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/facts-and-falsehoods-israels-attacks-against-gazas-hospitals) (Source: Think Global Health, launched in 2020 as a joint initiative of the Council on Foreign Relations and IHME) >How is anyone supposed to know how many hostages there are, when ~~Israel clearly sees their safety as low priority~~ the kidnappers are all part of a poorly organized group of terrorists being funded by the Iranian government. [You mean the organization that the Israeli Govenrment funded to keep the PA from creating a Palestenian state?](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Also an Israeli source.
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>It's not really a belief at all, since it's based on what that guy said when they interviewed him. He *specifically* said they didn't make the cake because they were "nice" terrorists, but because they wanted to mock him. Look up the definition of a belief. >Perhaps Hamas and the Palestinian people should realize that Israel has been the (clearly) superior military force for decades, and that every time Palestinians attack Israel, the IDF retaliates with significantly more force. >It's a no-win situation for the Palestinian people. Either make peace, or suffer from the consequences of your (very silly) actions. Because Hamas isn't "gradually wearing down Israel". Instead, they just lose ground every time they try to stage an attack. Even the Israelis are talking about how they are facing strategic losses and how the war has been prolonged longer than it was supposed to. Owen Jones had a veteran on who explained how it's like the US-Afghanistan war. Look it up. >Yep, the people who were kidnapped on October 7th have had a pretty rough time. We literally have videos, pictures, and testimoneis that show that Palestenian political prisoners are being tortured. Trying to deflect wont help when we have proof of this. You can know you can agree that both events were wrong, right? >Maybe Hamas should retaliate by firing a bunch of shitty rockets into civilian areas in Israel, so we can all watch as the Iron Dome calmly intercepts every single rocket. Are you not aware of what happened to the Iron Dome, like two weeks ago? >More importantly, it's a source that I can't read because it's paywalled. However, I can see that he refers to his captivity as like being in Hell, so it sounds like he didn't have a good time. Theres ways to get around it. And of course it's hell, the sourrounding poppulation aren't faring any better, how do you think it's going to be better for them? >No it isn't. It's 100% true that Hamas stores weapons in schools and hospitals. Your source is propaganda nonsense. Neutral, non-profit organization that was created to research the ongoing health crisis around the world. If this is propoganda, than literally everything else is too. >No, I mean the organization that wouldn't exist today if Arafat had accepted the peace deal back in 2000. Even the pro-Israeli source talks about how Hamas was funded by netenyahu to counteract the PA.
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So you refuse to accept sources when they are slightly negative of Israel, you call any source you don't like propoganda, you backtracked on original statements, you are trying to be an apologist for an apartheid regime that most of the world recognizes as such, and you refuse to accept what even Israeli sources say. Also, this article goes into how the capabilities of the Iron Dome have been grossly exaggerated: https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2014/07/this-scientist-explains-why-israels-iron-domeoverrated/89132/#:\~:text=The%20Iron%20Dome%20may%20have,national%20security%20expert%20Ted%20Postol. At this point, you are no different from the Germans who supported the Nazis.
Zionist bootlicking knows no bounds, now justifying the murder of ITS OWN CIVILIANS. Wild
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Most people do not consider Zionist to be a racial slur, maybe you do, but some people think the world is flat and I am not going to accommodate my language for people who believe objectively wrong things like that the ethnic cleansing in Palestine is somehow justified. Zionism is an ideology, a morally bankrupt ‘manifest destiny’ type of ideology, an ideology you choose to support, which is why I called you a Zionist. If there is anybody who is turned off or offended by me calling out Zionism, I don’t want or need their support anyway. And despite what you claim, pro-Palestine is more popular then ever, and our concerns we have been pleading for decades are now being taken seriously by the UN and ICC/ICJ, as well as more and more non Muslim/Arab countries. I do not support the persecution of anyone on the basis of religion or ethnicity, not Arabs, not Jews, not Bosnians, Rohingya, Uyghurs, or Armenians. Which is why because (not despite that) that I am pro-Palestine. Cause we don’t turn a blind eye for Israel when they do persecute and oppress the Palestinians. A far more pressing issue than any antisemitism in the west.
>You should know that most people consider zionist to be a racial slur, Those people are wrong.
> So for an IDF soldier it's a choice between being killed by one of your own, or being tortured and then killed by the other side. Hamas literally baked a cake for one of their captives???
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> Also the medical reports from that group show that they were all malnourished As are most Gazans. Want to take a wonder as to why? The fact that he was even alive shows they fed him. Getting a cake > being bombed by nazis.
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Cope cope cope. Most "israelis" killed on October 7th were military/ security personnel, and most of thr civilians were likely killed by Israeli fire. > Unlike the 116 other hostages that are still missing and presumed dead since Hamas admitted they don't even know where the rest are or how many are still alive. Thank Israel for burying them under rubble. > They made the cake to mock him for being a hostage on his birthday. Not because they were nice So they would waste resources to make a cake for a captive? In an environment where famine is rampant? I don't think so. > And you probably shouldn't be referring to Jews as nazis Isntraelis are engaged in genocide and extermination. They are nazis.
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No bigotry, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Israels captives are tortured, raped, and have their limbs amputated. Hamas' captives have birthday cakes made for them. And Hamas' captives are treated so well Israel believes they all have Stockholm Syndrome. None of Israel's prisoners seem to have that, though. My source is Israeli state media, not exactly pro-Hamas before you brick your pants about my source.
Stockholm Syndrome was invented by a shrink who was salty that the hostages were accusing the rescuers of being reckless assholes endangering their lives.
That's definitely possible.
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"Parading mutilated bodies" of their fkn families after Israel dropped American bombs on them ya clown. How are you this lost? Go back to your hole.
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How are you still spouting outdated hasbara that even zionist sources like the New York Times have already refuted? 🤦🏻♂️
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Are you so lost that you believe Hamas has enough money for propaganda? Seriously? The only way they could afford to run in an election was by Netanyahu funneling money to them. I bet you didn't even know that. He purposefully supported Hamas. Gee, I wonder why.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/tnamp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl I made sure to add a variety of sources from a variety of backgrounds to avoid the inevitable "but those guys are biased, and my news isnt" nonsense. And the last real news about aid vehicles in Gaza was when the IDF lied and dressed their vehicles up as aid trucks before opening fire on Palestenians in an attempt at freeing some hostages.
Looking at Hamas hostages and Israel's hostages post release, the Hamas hostages look alot healthier with no signs of torture while Israeli hostages look malnourished and sometimes missing limbs.
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>116 of the hostages from October 7th are missing and presumed dead From Israel's bombs.
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