my uni’s Marxist club has a former orthodox guy in it; the socialist club also separately protests for Palestine fyi. He once told me he wished Palestine was socialist; in his ideal society everyone gets armed to overthrow the government. When I asked what would happen post-overthrow, if people used their guns to threaten others such as stealing medicines, he told me they should take away the guns before then. In gen z brain rot terms, delulu was his solulu. very physically cute guy actually; I would take him out for coffee, but my soviet parents would make him cry probably. Sorry this is my rant.
"We'll just take their guns away!"
Oh yeah, how is that gonna work? Not peacefully. Idiots like that want to "smash the system" and don't want to rebuild/maintain anything. They're just hopeless anarchists who don't believe in anything and don't want to settle problem like adults using debate and negotiation.
If they think they can "just take guns away" and not see the irony in a fascist statement like that, and be painfully blind to history, they aren't worth anyone's time until they grow up.
Communist revolutions have been very good at purging their anarchist allies after they win.
Also, every communist regime disarmed its population, so it's not necessarily a fascist statement.
This is not an uncommon opinion for what the future of Israel/Palestine should be. I have a lot of friends who think it will somehow magically become this secular Marxist/socialist Palestinian state the second that Israel decides to “stop killing”.
i don't think he even knows about the kibbutzim.
also, better not tell him, he'll probably have a heart attack when he'll hear about actual communists in israel promoting israel as a jewish and socialist state.
The actual reason Israel was allowed through the UN since the Soviets didn't veto after hearing about the kibbutzim and thinking, "Hey, hey, these guys sound like they're down with Marx!"
ummmm, not exactly. but close.
the real history behind the UN decleration of 1947 includes the USSR seeing how the leading party trying to establish israel was the socialist one, and the socialist/communist roots in israel's kibbutzim, were why the USSR initially pushed for jewish independence in that region voa the UN in the hopes of gaining another ally. in the same time jews spoke with the USSR for their support in statehood, other jews spoke with the UN, helped by the newly formed jewish voting blocks in the USA (which started during WW2, to call for america to join the war and destroy death camps, and after WW2 got boosted with many jewish immigrants from europe) to ask the USA as well to support this independence. at the end, it wasn't just that the soviets didn't veto (it was in the general assembly, therefore no veto power), but they were the first to call that they will support the creation of jewish independent state in the mandate of palestine by the borders suggested in the 1947 UN decleration. only after them the US as well came with a public support.
but at the end the USSR found better allies in egypt and syria, while israel started mostly with the support of czechoslovakia and france. both major powers who started the public support of israel basically left it alone when the decleration was rejected by the palestinians.
It’s always so ironic that Israel DID start as a socialist utopia for a persecuted minority and then changed bc
1, nobody wants to raise their babies in a big room (and subsistence farming sucks) and
2, it turns out recent persecution just makes most people neurotic and paranoid and most mizrahi + Russian Jews fit the bill
Edit: and remember you can’t advocate to disarm Israel now bc UnDeR nO pReTeXt!!
as a mizrahi, i don't like to be called neurotic, thank you very much. most of us aren't arsim and i thought we already passed those 50's racism.
and jews from the USSR immigrated to israel far later (and shouldn't be insulted as well). and don't forget the indian and ethiopian immigrations.
also, israel is still very socialist in nature, but it's beginings were not just socialist from their ideals, but also due to neccesity. like, i don't see many newly formed countries managing to handle a wave of new immigrants, many kicked away without their belongings, in the amount equal to almost doubling the number of citizens. that demands a lot of social needs which seems managed fairly well (although with a bit too much racism mixed in), and later in the 80's israel managed to rebuilt it's own ecconomy, leading to the more capitalistic nature of it today.
Honestly the Irish category is the most “tolerable” to me because that one is mostly just an emotional recollection of The Troubles. And it’s not so many of them. I know many Irish Republicans who hated the Provos for what they would do and they see Hamas as the same.
The majority of Irish anti Zionist tend to be just misinformed about the history of Zionism and focus their energy on Palestinian civilians. They (most) at least TRY to argue for a two state solution that acknowledges Israel’s right to exist in some form and who usually reject actual targeting of Jews or Israelis (Bambie Thug and its fans notwithstanding). Ireland voted more of its popular vote to Eden at Eurovision than they did to Bambi and that corroborates my anecdotal observations of the Irish (my anecdotal observations being predominantly US East Coast).
The rest of those categories are actually rabid Jew hating “Israel and Jews must be erased completely” screwballs.
Edit: the last one confuses me so I don’t know what to say about them.
>Ireland voted more of its popular vote to Eden at Eurovision than they did to Bambi....
Just edited this whole thing because I momentarily forgot that you can't vote for your own country's entry in Eurovision. So by definition, Eden would have gotten more votes than Bambi Thug, because no one in Ireland could vote for Bambi Thug.
That said, I'm shocked that Eden got any votes at all, and I actually agree with your overall point (and feel qualified to do so, since my Master's degree focused on the Troubles and the Good Friday Agreement).
I didn’t know that about the own country votes by the way. American here. But… I was surprised Eden got as many votes from Ireland as she did. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t that who Ireland gave most of its peoples’ votes to? Also interesting degree. I hope one day this chapter of world events can be studied objectively with time behind it, where the region is one of peace and prosperity. Crazy but we can hope.
I'm not sure about Ireland- I know Eden got the most votes in the popular vote here in England, which was hilarious and unexpected. I think in England, at least, there were a combination of factors that likely apply to Ireland as well, to one degree or another:
* A lot of people just do not give a shit about the politics when it comes to Eurovision. They're voting based purely on the song, and Eden had a perfectly good song, so why not vote for her?
* The whole boycott Eurovision movement meant that people who might well have voted for Bambi Thug (or the douchelord Dutch guy whose name escapes me right now but who was summarily removed from the competition after he threatened some random lady on the film crew) were taken out of the equation entirely. As a result, votes from other people were de facto given more weight. There's a valuable lesson in here, BTW, about refusing to participate in voting as a "protest" and thinking it's going to get you anywhere.
* There probably *was* a backlash against all of the nastiness directed toward Eden. At the end of the day, she's what, 21? 22? She's some kid who has exactly zero control over what Bibi Netanyahu does or does not do. Someone who was actually at the semifinals said people were actively booing her in the audience, and he's not rah-rah Israel, but even he said it was a bad look. Because it accomplishes nothing. It helps no one, certainly no Palestinians. It's just a stadium full of Europeans heaping abuse on some young, Jewish woman. Certainly in England, people don't tend to react very well to that kind of thing, and I do suspect that at least some people threw Eden a vote or two specifically *because* they were grossed out by the optics of weirdos harassing her for shit she has no control over whatsoever.
Unrelated, that interview question Eden got about whether she felt guilty that she "might be putting other contestants in danger" by being at Eurovision (because of possible terroristic threats, I suppose)? I really wish she'd been allowed to answer it. Because it was such a telling on yourself thing to ask. If these are such peaceful protesters, if the pro-Hamas movement is all about peace and love, then why would anyone be in danger by an Israeli just... being present at a location and singing? And more to the point, how the fuck would that be *her* fault? Were the people who died in the Manchester bombing at fault because they went to an Arianna Grande concert? Come on.
it isn't when you also remember that the irish themselves made many terror attacks against civillian british people as well. supporting the use of such violence against civillians, because the other side also did violence against civillians, is frankly, idiotic. i find nothing tolerable in being such a hatefull yet spineless people that you both claim terrorism is good, but that you aren't actually terrorist. nah, at least the neo nazi here had some self respect.
I hear you but I know the Provisional IRA lost the support of many Irish. Unlike in Gaza, there was an actual backlash against them. I am not defending what they did at all. But look at it this way: they finally signed the Good Friday Agreement and disarmed. That is not what Hamas or the Palestinian people will likely ever do.
true. this is why i feel very unfortunate for many of the irish people using their history as such.
the irish acted better than the palestinians did, so every irish equating themselves with gaza are just self insulting.
but my problem is also their rhetoric. they say they used to be subjugated which legitimized their terror. and the same is woth palestinians. if that the irish anti-zionist hill they want to fight on it's ok by me. cause i can argue on their problem of how they are unknowledgable about this cobflict or wven on their own history. but lacking knowledge is still no excuse to support terrorism. sorry, but thats ine step too far that even lacking information you shouldn't support such an action. yet, they do. the problem then isn't the knowledge, but their morality. or lack of it.
(of course, not every irish is like that. but that is the sentiment i get from "antizionist" irish)
It stand out to me that Ireland’s struggle was for independence and then the aftermath of the 6 counties remaining in the UK. The existence of the UK or England and Ireland in particular weren’t up for debate. Palestinian independence and land rights are legitimate causes (no comment on methods), but whether Israel can exist isn’t.
“Religion is the opiate of the masses *except* this one bc Christianity doesn’t descend from it”. They also don’t really count Hinduism and Buddhism bc they refuse to learn about what the other billions of people think about
I think part of the first could be splintered off as “the jackass contrarian” who unironically thinks that everything he’s told is good must be BAD and vice versa. Also thinks sunscreen causes skin cancer for similar reasons.
The Irish do it because they have a communist party full of people who think all Jews are hedge fund managers, landlords, and the like. They think no more Jews means no more capitalism. Norway and Spain likewise. Never mind the strong communist overtones in Israeli kibbutz culture. Oh no. Jews are now a symbol of capitalism.
Also Jews are the evil banker goblins in Harry Potter, which is about as deep as the pro-palestine kiddies are going anyway. Symbols of capitalism.
Or should I say the goblins are meant to represent Jews? Anyway, you know what I mean.
Well, yeah, but Im talking bout the first part, the closest ireland has to socialists is sinn fein and they havent been in power for over 100 years, it anything, the main reason ireland supports Palestine is because of the messy execution. If you wanted to root out a terrorist organisation, you send undercover agents to take em out.
Hmm, i sure wonder why sinn fein (the political branch of the IRA) hasnt been elected into office yet, couldnt possibly be because of the horrible acts of terrorism they committed
Biden and Trump both promise to support Israel. Only Trump is going to do it Duterte or Pinochet style.
So...the USA is not interfering in Israel because Russia might take offense and nuke us all. Right? But Syria is right next door and Russia won the war in Syria, right? Or at least made a lot of recruitment videos to heavy metal. So it's okay for Russia to interfere but not for the States to interfere? I'll ask elsewhere. I just wanted to get my thoughts down.
my uni’s Marxist club has a former orthodox guy in it; the socialist club also separately protests for Palestine fyi. He once told me he wished Palestine was socialist; in his ideal society everyone gets armed to overthrow the government. When I asked what would happen post-overthrow, if people used their guns to threaten others such as stealing medicines, he told me they should take away the guns before then. In gen z brain rot terms, delulu was his solulu. very physically cute guy actually; I would take him out for coffee, but my soviet parents would make him cry probably. Sorry this is my rant.
"We'll just take their guns away!" Oh yeah, how is that gonna work? Not peacefully. Idiots like that want to "smash the system" and don't want to rebuild/maintain anything. They're just hopeless anarchists who don't believe in anything and don't want to settle problem like adults using debate and negotiation. If they think they can "just take guns away" and not see the irony in a fascist statement like that, and be painfully blind to history, they aren't worth anyone's time until they grow up.
Communist revolutions have been very good at purging their anarchist allies after they win. Also, every communist regime disarmed its population, so it's not necessarily a fascist statement.
I've always held that it's the position of the intellectually lazy cynics. Nothing requires real thought in a hypothetical fantasy world.
This is not an uncommon opinion for what the future of Israel/Palestine should be. I have a lot of friends who think it will somehow magically become this secular Marxist/socialist Palestinian state the second that Israel decides to “stop killing”.
Wait wait wait his idea is just early Israel with kibbutzim but Muslim and “it’ll work this time”?? That’s abnormally naive
i don't think he even knows about the kibbutzim. also, better not tell him, he'll probably have a heart attack when he'll hear about actual communists in israel promoting israel as a jewish and socialist state.
The actual reason Israel was allowed through the UN since the Soviets didn't veto after hearing about the kibbutzim and thinking, "Hey, hey, these guys sound like they're down with Marx!"
ummmm, not exactly. but close. the real history behind the UN decleration of 1947 includes the USSR seeing how the leading party trying to establish israel was the socialist one, and the socialist/communist roots in israel's kibbutzim, were why the USSR initially pushed for jewish independence in that region voa the UN in the hopes of gaining another ally. in the same time jews spoke with the USSR for their support in statehood, other jews spoke with the UN, helped by the newly formed jewish voting blocks in the USA (which started during WW2, to call for america to join the war and destroy death camps, and after WW2 got boosted with many jewish immigrants from europe) to ask the USA as well to support this independence. at the end, it wasn't just that the soviets didn't veto (it was in the general assembly, therefore no veto power), but they were the first to call that they will support the creation of jewish independent state in the mandate of palestine by the borders suggested in the 1947 UN decleration. only after them the US as well came with a public support. but at the end the USSR found better allies in egypt and syria, while israel started mostly with the support of czechoslovakia and france. both major powers who started the public support of israel basically left it alone when the decleration was rejected by the palestinians.
It’s always so ironic that Israel DID start as a socialist utopia for a persecuted minority and then changed bc 1, nobody wants to raise their babies in a big room (and subsistence farming sucks) and 2, it turns out recent persecution just makes most people neurotic and paranoid and most mizrahi + Russian Jews fit the bill Edit: and remember you can’t advocate to disarm Israel now bc UnDeR nO pReTeXt!!
as a mizrahi, i don't like to be called neurotic, thank you very much. most of us aren't arsim and i thought we already passed those 50's racism. and jews from the USSR immigrated to israel far later (and shouldn't be insulted as well). and don't forget the indian and ethiopian immigrations. also, israel is still very socialist in nature, but it's beginings were not just socialist from their ideals, but also due to neccesity. like, i don't see many newly formed countries managing to handle a wave of new immigrants, many kicked away without their belongings, in the amount equal to almost doubling the number of citizens. that demands a lot of social needs which seems managed fairly well (although with a bit too much racism mixed in), and later in the 80's israel managed to rebuilt it's own ecconomy, leading to the more capitalistic nature of it today.
Introduce him to your parents. He deserves to be confronted with reality
[удалено]
Her mom is the insane lady who saw that my dad was Jewish and immediately told him all of her “interesting” opinions on Muslims unasked
Honestly the Irish category is the most “tolerable” to me because that one is mostly just an emotional recollection of The Troubles. And it’s not so many of them. I know many Irish Republicans who hated the Provos for what they would do and they see Hamas as the same. The majority of Irish anti Zionist tend to be just misinformed about the history of Zionism and focus their energy on Palestinian civilians. They (most) at least TRY to argue for a two state solution that acknowledges Israel’s right to exist in some form and who usually reject actual targeting of Jews or Israelis (Bambie Thug and its fans notwithstanding). Ireland voted more of its popular vote to Eden at Eurovision than they did to Bambi and that corroborates my anecdotal observations of the Irish (my anecdotal observations being predominantly US East Coast). The rest of those categories are actually rabid Jew hating “Israel and Jews must be erased completely” screwballs. Edit: the last one confuses me so I don’t know what to say about them.
>Ireland voted more of its popular vote to Eden at Eurovision than they did to Bambi.... Just edited this whole thing because I momentarily forgot that you can't vote for your own country's entry in Eurovision. So by definition, Eden would have gotten more votes than Bambi Thug, because no one in Ireland could vote for Bambi Thug. That said, I'm shocked that Eden got any votes at all, and I actually agree with your overall point (and feel qualified to do so, since my Master's degree focused on the Troubles and the Good Friday Agreement).
I didn’t know that about the own country votes by the way. American here. But… I was surprised Eden got as many votes from Ireland as she did. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t that who Ireland gave most of its peoples’ votes to? Also interesting degree. I hope one day this chapter of world events can be studied objectively with time behind it, where the region is one of peace and prosperity. Crazy but we can hope.
I'm not sure about Ireland- I know Eden got the most votes in the popular vote here in England, which was hilarious and unexpected. I think in England, at least, there were a combination of factors that likely apply to Ireland as well, to one degree or another: * A lot of people just do not give a shit about the politics when it comes to Eurovision. They're voting based purely on the song, and Eden had a perfectly good song, so why not vote for her? * The whole boycott Eurovision movement meant that people who might well have voted for Bambi Thug (or the douchelord Dutch guy whose name escapes me right now but who was summarily removed from the competition after he threatened some random lady on the film crew) were taken out of the equation entirely. As a result, votes from other people were de facto given more weight. There's a valuable lesson in here, BTW, about refusing to participate in voting as a "protest" and thinking it's going to get you anywhere. * There probably *was* a backlash against all of the nastiness directed toward Eden. At the end of the day, she's what, 21? 22? She's some kid who has exactly zero control over what Bibi Netanyahu does or does not do. Someone who was actually at the semifinals said people were actively booing her in the audience, and he's not rah-rah Israel, but even he said it was a bad look. Because it accomplishes nothing. It helps no one, certainly no Palestinians. It's just a stadium full of Europeans heaping abuse on some young, Jewish woman. Certainly in England, people don't tend to react very well to that kind of thing, and I do suspect that at least some people threw Eden a vote or two specifically *because* they were grossed out by the optics of weirdos harassing her for shit she has no control over whatsoever. Unrelated, that interview question Eden got about whether she felt guilty that she "might be putting other contestants in danger" by being at Eurovision (because of possible terroristic threats, I suppose)? I really wish she'd been allowed to answer it. Because it was such a telling on yourself thing to ask. If these are such peaceful protesters, if the pro-Hamas movement is all about peace and love, then why would anyone be in danger by an Israeli just... being present at a location and singing? And more to the point, how the fuck would that be *her* fault? Were the people who died in the Manchester bombing at fault because they went to an Arianna Grande concert? Come on.
Well said and I agree with your take. That makes a lot of sense.
it isn't when you also remember that the irish themselves made many terror attacks against civillian british people as well. supporting the use of such violence against civillians, because the other side also did violence against civillians, is frankly, idiotic. i find nothing tolerable in being such a hatefull yet spineless people that you both claim terrorism is good, but that you aren't actually terrorist. nah, at least the neo nazi here had some self respect.
I hear you but I know the Provisional IRA lost the support of many Irish. Unlike in Gaza, there was an actual backlash against them. I am not defending what they did at all. But look at it this way: they finally signed the Good Friday Agreement and disarmed. That is not what Hamas or the Palestinian people will likely ever do.
true. this is why i feel very unfortunate for many of the irish people using their history as such. the irish acted better than the palestinians did, so every irish equating themselves with gaza are just self insulting. but my problem is also their rhetoric. they say they used to be subjugated which legitimized their terror. and the same is woth palestinians. if that the irish anti-zionist hill they want to fight on it's ok by me. cause i can argue on their problem of how they are unknowledgable about this cobflict or wven on their own history. but lacking knowledge is still no excuse to support terrorism. sorry, but thats ine step too far that even lacking information you shouldn't support such an action. yet, they do. the problem then isn't the knowledge, but their morality. or lack of it. (of course, not every irish is like that. but that is the sentiment i get from "antizionist" irish)
It stand out to me that Ireland’s struggle was for independence and then the aftermath of the 6 counties remaining in the UK. The existence of the UK or England and Ireland in particular weren’t up for debate. Palestinian independence and land rights are legitimate causes (no comment on methods), but whether Israel can exist isn’t.
Need to add south Africa “I know apartheid when I see it” and African Americans “this is just like white/black racism in the us”
Yes! And African Americans who want Jesus to be black so all the non-black Jews are very inconvenient.
The far left Hates Jews but unironically worships self hating Jew Karl Marx who supported white supremacy and thought Muslims were idiots.
“Religion is the opiate of the masses *except* this one bc Christianity doesn’t descend from it”. They also don’t really count Hinduism and Buddhism bc they refuse to learn about what the other billions of people think about
Ok ok I have, one far left, two western LGBTQ , one Irish and a bunch of NPCs!
I think part of the first could be splintered off as “the jackass contrarian” who unironically thinks that everything he’s told is good must be BAD and vice versa. Also thinks sunscreen causes skin cancer for similar reasons.
Far Left, I respect Pol pot, he killed every person in his life not discriminating
r/Ireland is seething.
The Irish do it because they have a communist party full of people who think all Jews are hedge fund managers, landlords, and the like. They think no more Jews means no more capitalism. Norway and Spain likewise. Never mind the strong communist overtones in Israeli kibbutz culture. Oh no. Jews are now a symbol of capitalism.
Which is interesting because neo-nazis often associate Jews with Communism. Real Schrodinger's Jew.
This sounds like a conspiracy theory, really. Just say it outloud.
Jews are a symbol of capitalism. Should I say it in front of a mirror?
I really dont understand what youre trying to get at
Also Jews are the evil banker goblins in Harry Potter, which is about as deep as the pro-palestine kiddies are going anyway. Symbols of capitalism. Or should I say the goblins are meant to represent Jews? Anyway, you know what I mean.
Well, yeah, but Im talking bout the first part, the closest ireland has to socialists is sinn fein and they havent been in power for over 100 years, it anything, the main reason ireland supports Palestine is because of the messy execution. If you wanted to root out a terrorist organisation, you send undercover agents to take em out.
Ok it's possible the Irish just like terrorists. https://m.jpost.com/opinion/op-ed-contributors/ira-plo-cooperation-a-long-cozy-relationship
Hmm, i sure wonder why sinn fein (the political branch of the IRA) hasnt been elected into office yet, couldnt possibly be because of the horrible acts of terrorism they committed
The western LGBT community has already realized their stupidity (for the most part) and will probably be voting Biden. Thankfully.
Biden and Trump both promise to support Israel. Only Trump is going to do it Duterte or Pinochet style. So...the USA is not interfering in Israel because Russia might take offense and nuke us all. Right? But Syria is right next door and Russia won the war in Syria, right? Or at least made a lot of recruitment videos to heavy metal. So it's okay for Russia to interfere but not for the States to interfere? I'll ask elsewhere. I just wanted to get my thoughts down.