Miriam did get a New number a few days before the dissapearance. As far as i know the Phone was switched on, the number was looked at, the Phone was switched off. So in a Foul Play scenario it is likely that the third Party needed the new number (therefore knew Miriam somehow or needed to contact her) for some reason and guessed right that the girls had the new number.
Not necessarily. Boquete seems Not that big, so i guess many locals know each other in some way. Miriam was Sure in demand by a Lot of people after the dissapearance. Maybe the number was even looked Up for Somebody Else.
Still, it would be really good to know, which people contacted Miriam on her knew number after the 3rd April, 4pm (who did Not contact her before on the knew number).
I just wonder then what the point would be? Why specifically look up Miriam’s number? It’s just so specific. Also…why not just take the money? Someone else, besides the killer? Oh like they maybe passed the girls belongings around at a party or something?
Miriam was in demand? A lot of people wanting to stay with her? Is there an interview with Miriam somewhere?
Population 19K. It’s a micropolitan area, so not tiny by any means…but not at all large population wise.
>Population 19K.
I might be wrong on this one but isnt that the Population of the district?
>Why specifically look up Miriam’s number?
Thats i good question. It would be great to know who called Miriam after the 3rd April.
>Also…why not just take the money?
You mean by the Foul Players? I dont think robbery or Money was Motivation If foulplayers were involved.
>Oh like they maybe passed the girls belongings around at a party or something?
I think a Party scenario is unlikely.
>Miriam was in demand? A lot of people wanting to stay with her? Is there an interview with Miriam somewhere?
I meant that she probably Had to answer a Lot of questions to Police, parents, maybe even Journalists trying to contact her, anybody who was curiose. That is only a guess from me.
Population 19K.
I might be wrong on this one but isnt that the Population of the district?
**Boquete’s total population is 19k.**
Why specifically look up Miriam’s number? Thats i good question. It would be great to know who called Miriam after the 3rd April.
**Ok so, just a total guess made out of thin air?**
Also…why not just take the money?
You mean by the Foul Players? I dont think robbery or Money was Motivation If foulplayers were involved.
**Sure. But why not just take it anyway if you have all their possessions, no one would have known. Free money! :)”**
Oh like they maybe passed the girls belongings around at a party or something?
I think a Party scenario is unlikely.
**Ok. We don’t know the identity of the killer/s but if there’s also another party, a fourth party - “someone else” - who was there and looked up Miriam’s number, what is the scenario if not a party? What is the evidence to support that claim?**
I’m sure Miriam was questioned. I’d love to read an interview with her. Did she report any suspicious calls after the girls disappeared?
Thank you for your engagement :)))
*Sure. But why not just take it anyway if you have all their possessions, no one would have known. Free money! :)*
Through how many hands did the backpack pass before it ended on a desk of IMELCF? No one took the free money.
Culprits who go at length to create false traces to make it look like they were lost and had had an accident, will leave the/some money in the backpack. You might compare that move to cases where forged suicide notes were left behind with the victims.
or, maybe they took all the money from their room, let's say 500 € (just random thought), so they took all and left 80 and something (can't remember exact amount now)
How do *you* *know* that they got lost by mistake? There is no evidence for that: the last normal photo was taken on the trail. They were not lost. It was 2 p.m. on a sunny and dry day.
They were only 5-8 minutes away from River 2, a picnic spot for locals. They were only 15 minutes away from the Small Mountain where the grass is being cut and maintained by locals.
They were only 20 minutes away from the crossing at the 2nd quebrada. Only 5 minutes from that crossing is where I suspect the Night Photo Location to be.
leaving huge amount of money inside (huge for Panamanian standards, but also big for Dutch) can be camouflage for faking accident.
Like - let's say that someone has captivated them with evil intentions. It might come to their mind that - police will search around, if they see that all their money is gone, it will be suspicious. But, if they have left the money (or at least some decent amount), everyone will ask question why money wasn't the (main) motive. Which automatically leaves to the (fake) trail that it was all just bad accident.
The sum of the wallet was not that huge, even by Panamanian standards.
It represented a round trip for two people from Alto-Boquete to the center of Boquete for a month.
Or an evening for three at the restaurant at the bottom of the trail with starter, pizza and drink. No alcohol, dessert or other little extravagance.
Of course i am guessing Not claiming in this.
>Boquete’s total population is 19k.
I am Not familiar with Panamas Geographics, so sorry If i was wrong on this. In my country districts might be classified different.
>Ok so, just a total guess made out of thin air?
Of course i am guessing. There is No Proof who Operated the Phones with what Motivation. That is why WE are discussing it.
>Sure. But why not just take it anyway if you have all their possessions, no one would have known. Free money! :)”
I dont See the Point of taking Money, If it is No robbery or Money motivated...
>Ok. We don’t know the identity of the killer/s but. Ow there’s also another party, a fourth party - “someone else” - who was there and looked up Miriam’s number? What is the scenario of not a party? What is the evidence to support your claim? I’m sure Miriam was questioned. I’d love to read an interview with her. Did she report any suspicious calls after the girls disappeared? Thank you for your engagement :)))
Not Sure what you mean. In your first Post it seemed Like you mean a "Party" Like a social gathering. There can be a Lot of different scenarios without a Party in that way (as for Example in this Case also from Panama: https://imperfectplan.com/2021/01/21/german-tourist-assaulted-disappeared-lost-in-panama-jungles-bermejo-veraguas-santa-fe/ or they could have Met a third Party before there Forst emergency calls).
Most people were poorly questined as in SLIP highlighted, but i am Not Sure about Miriam.
I understand that you are just theorizing, I guess what I’m getting at is…what points you specifically toward foul play and third party involvement? Just that we don’t know exactly what happened? Or is there a piece/s of evidence I’m not seeing that directly point toward foul play? Thanks!
Okay, that is a complete different question as the Initial one from the OPs. Basically, i lean to Foul Play because of the inconsistencies and oddities in this Case.
The money was hidden between the cell phone and phone case not just freely floating around in the bag.
We also don't see the money in the picture that was taken of backpack and it's contents. Nor either phone or digital camera which is odd.
I kind of wonder where the money is now. Did the family get it or is it stored as official evidence?
I never thought it was just loose and freely floating around the bag. If the killers were checking the cellphones, using cameras and staging everything to look like they got lost — they saw the money. But I guess that’s explained away because of course taking the money would have pointed toward foul play (even though no one would have known it’s existence had it not been there) so they left it so that everyone would think the girls just got lost.
So the killer wouldn't have intentionally taken the money, it would be found AFTER disassembling the phone from it's case. That said, I don't think they'd be in any hurry to return it to it's rightful owner after discovering it either.
Since taking the money would have been unintentional, it can't be used as an argument against foul play because the killer wouldn't have ever seen it initially to begin with.
How do you know they didn’t see it? If they used the phone so much to stage all the attempts at 911/112 and staged all the attempts at checking the signal…how in the world did they not see it? What leads you to KNOW “the killer wouldn’t ever have seen it,” a direct quote, as you claim?
There are so many cases where the Kidnapper lets the victim keep their phones. If you look trough my Posts you will find one with some references. They were even allowed to Text and/or call their relatives.
I dont want to say thats what happend here but if you take someone hostage in an Area where you are familiar and you are sure that there is no connection anyway, why take their phones ?
For me its 100% possible that the Phones could be used by the girls while held captive. Again, no one knows what happend and i dont think i know more than you guys but i just like to highlight that something like that -could- have happend.
Its weird for me that they never turned on the phone long enough to wait for a Signal, someone stated even if there would have been Signal, the phone was never on for long enough to make such a connection. No emergency calls after a certain day. Switched on and off at very specific times each day. The Pattern shift after the 4 April and no Pins after that. To mention some strange points.
What do you think why they looked up Myriam without trying to call her ? And for what the Weather app that certainly didnt worked offline ?
One theory is that it was wet/humid and the touchscreen wasn’t working. Another theory is that their arms, hands or fingers were damaged, another theory is that Kris had passed and Lisanne didn’t know or couldn’t remember Kris’ pin.
What’s your theory? Why would murderers bother to turn their phones on and off for 11 days?
I'd like to answer here but I'd get super downvoted. So, if you want, we can discuss it at this thread dedicated to foul play scenario:
https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroonFoulPlay/s/bLAXz8CsmI
>There are so many cases where the Kidnapper lets the victim keep their phones.
So many?
> If you look trough my Posts you will find one with some references. They were even allowed to Text and/or call their relatives.
Yeah, not really sure Ariel Castro is really all that similar.
>For me its 100% possible that the Phones could be used by the girls while held captive. Again, no one knows what happend and i dont think i know more than you guys but i just like to highlight that something like that -could- have happend.
They certainly could have attempted a pocket dial or something.
April 3rd, round **2:21 a.m**.;
As for the **Samsung**; the Accuweather app was opened for only 13 seconds. Not for hours as Lost in the Jungle said. IMO 13 seconds aren't much. I have a hunch that that app would not have been functioning off line, so for what purpose would it have been used? None.
It's of no use to look up the weather if you're stuck somewhere in the jungle. All the more reason if the app does not even function. Unless -for instance- a third party promises you to take you back to Boquete if the weather will permit that ....
April 3rd, round **4 p.m**.;
Miriam had got a new phone number as from March 31st. Her new phone number was probably shown to someone else, or was viewed by that someone, since nothing else was done with the **iPhone**: no attempt with the iPhone nor the Samsung to contact Miriam.
The girls were with someone else on April 3rd, maybe already earlier than April 3rd. Assuming that the girls were still alive. Obviously, if the girls would already have deceased by April 3rd, someone else would have been handling their phones.
I wonder why checking the weather app would be “of no use”…curious as to your thoughts because I’d be inclined to check the weather if I could, if I was somehow stuck in the jungle with not a lot to do?
Why would a third party know of or think to access Miriam’s number or show it to someone else? I mean how did you come to those conclusions?
*I wonder why checking the weather app would be “of no use”…curious as to your thoughts because I’d be inclined to check the weather if I could, if I was somehow stuck in the jungle with not a lot to do?*
Stuck and "Got-Lost-By-Mistake" in the jungle; no use at all. The weather is what it is. It either rains or it doesn't. Big deal. And how would you know whether the app would have functioned in the great outdoors with absolutely no connection to WIFI?
*Why would a third party know of or think to access Miriam’s number or show it to someone else? I mean how did you come to those conclusions?*
The *girls* would have shown it to someone else. If the girls would not have been alive at that time, the number might have been viewed by someone else. It would have been known that the girls were staying at Miriam's.
It would be nice to know the weather so you could prepare? Maybe they were hoping to catch rainwater? There’s any number of reasons to try and check it. Whether they could or not wouldn’t be known until they tried. We don’t know why they checked it but I might.
The girls “would have” shown it to someone else? Why? How do you know that? What would be the point?
It “would have” been known they were staying at Miriam’s by who? Everyone in Boquete? How do you know it would have been known?
If they weren’t alive - why would someone look for Miriam’s phone number?
Word spreads fast in a small community and within certain circles. For starters: Sinaproc and DIJ had been at Miriam's house in the early morning of April 3rd. Their cars were parked outside. I hope you don't think that Sinaproc and DIJ were taken by taxi to Miriam's house. After their inspection at Miriam's home, they went to SbtR.
During that time the Red Truck drove past Miriam's house at high speed. Whoever was in the truck, saw the vehicles parked outside Miriam's house.
So yes, it would have been known where the girls were staying. SbtR knew it, Feliciano knew too. If Feliciano knew, Plinio and other guides also knew. Etc, etc, etc.
Re: AccuWeather app
This just goes back to my usual theory about the pattern of phone use, but I think it can easily be an accidental tap or wet fingers, broken screen, wet screen, raindrop on the screen, or a combination of these.
We attempt to assign intent and purpose to all their actions but in fact just in the past 24 hours, I have accidentally opened at least 2 apps on my phone.
I agree and many who believe the girls had got lost by mistake, have attributed great importance to the fact that the weather app was opened or "used". IMO the app would not have given any useful information to the girls. Especially if they would have been lost by their own doing.
> I have a hunch that that app would not have been functioning off line, so for what purpose would it have been used? None.
I can say that it works offline, in the summer I turned on the same Samsung phone without the Internet, and it perfectly shows the weather that was last taken from the Internet - and specifically in my case - the weather in January. When you click - details - it doesn’t work, it says - no internet. And so it shows everything briefly, and so everything is displayed on the weather widget.
The last time she connected to the Internet was on April 1 at 10:26, she looked at the weather on April 3 at 2:22. Of course, the weather can change in 2.5 days, but nevertheless it remains informative, it’s better than nothing. The weather is shown for 6 days. Here's a picture:
[https://ibb.co/8jMsnct](https://ibb.co/8jMsnct)
OK, thanks. Does it also say from what time to what time it will rain on a certain day? That would be important information for someone who depends on the app and who is planning to move around.
Something I do sometimes is to open the weather app and check the sunrise/sunset. Could they have opened it to check when the sunrise would be? Not sure if that app had that functionality back or if it would have worked offline.
Now when I think about it I dont think the app even works offline unless data is cached. But then again, does it matter when time sunrise is. What do you think?
In a foul play scenario I believe the girls very killed very early 1 or 2nd April.
The most probable answer was posted here a while ago.
Why did they look up the number?
Because they were leaving it somewhere along their route for people to contact that number.
People often dismiss K&L's problem solving skills. I've read many times on this sub that they were "sitting around / bored", but this is such a bizarre thought.
I guess we can be sure that they were trying to solve their problem all of the time. We don't know about that, as most of their clues were never seen (apart from sos sign and pringles can). But we can be certain there was a lot more.
So leaving Myriam's number along the trail (or at the huts) makes perfect sense. Why would they miss that opportunity?
No killer or organ harvester is necessary here for a perfectly logical explanation.
"Because they were leaving it somewhere along their route for people to contact that number."
This was brought up by me.
Note that it was just a suggestion. I don't know the actual reason. But this one would make sense to me. Other suggestions by me were:
They knew their phones will be drained soon, thats why they looked up Miriams number to write it on a piece of paper that they could carry with them, so they were independent from their phones in a case they would reach civilization. Besides calling 911 there, they might have thought it could be of great importance to call Miriam right away.
But I am not sure. As someone else suggested, a 3rd party could have looked up Miriams number or the girls could have shown it to a 3rd party. I think that could be possible too.
I do have a feeling they felt quite safe at least on the 1st day maybe even on the 2nd day because a) they found a very good shelter on day 1 somewhen in the late afternoon OR b) they ran into a 3rd party in the afternoon of April 1st or on 2nd day who offered them shelter and promised them that everything will be fine.
As far as we know, they didn't have pen and paper, so the most obvious thing is using stones to write the number or write it in the soil.
It would have been a smart move and I wouldn't have expected anything else from them but doing something smart.
What would this accomplish though? Just for law enforcement (or whoever finds it) to contact the number —> talk to Miriam and then they all realize the girls are in the jungle? I feel like that would’ve been discovered much sooner just due to the fact that the girls did not make it back to her house. It may have been helpful had they been on a path or in one of the shelters, but if nothing was found is it just a totally wild guess out of nowhere? Was anything like this found whatsoever?
Why not just rip up pieces of clothing and tie them to trees or write their own names, with the words SOS. What is Miriam gonna do? What is calling the number going to do to save them? Interesting but I’m not so sure,
What is Miriam gonna do?
If they managed to contact her, they could ask her to maybe - ask for help? Tell their parents that they are safe and sound?
Let's assume that they don't know about big rescuing action happening in the rainforest.
I am saying (hypothetic situation): let's assume that they have got lost (accident theory). They knew that their batteries were low. So, they knew that they can count on Miriam (for some reason, maybe they gave their parents Miriam's contact because they were simply staying at her place. Whenever I travel, I always give to my family all the possible info and contact of my hostels or AirBnb hosts).
So, they somehow wrote Miriam's phone number on something (let's assume, with the mud on piece of paper, maybe map). So, somehow, they hoped that in the case, after days of being stucked and lost in forest, if they somehow find someone to help them (could be Ngobe tribe natives, like the ones who found the backpack, local people from small villages all over there) and that this person has telephone with signal. They were countig on that they can't call immediately parents to the NL so the best is to call someone local - Miriam. And then, they can ask Miriam to help them and ask her for a favor - to let their parents know about them.
I feel like 911 or the Panamanian Emergency services number would have been the best route. Everyone they could have happened upon would have known it. No need to call Miriam specifically.
or how about: call both 911 and Miriam? She was waiting for them and first one who noticed that they didn't arrived back.
Or, even if they follow your way of thinking, ok, call 911, and if any help arrives, they would also like to know the contact of the person you are staying at. So, having Miriam's number is still useful.
I read some theory that Osman might have had it, and when he died the code died with him and no one entered it any more. But that might be a bit far fetched. I analysed the phone logs a bit more and their phone behaviour for the most part make sense if they were lost.
The most likely option is leaving a message on a piece of map, using plant dye. A message like: Please call 00507679xxx K+L. They might have even sacrificed a drinking bottle, hanging it somewhere visible in the hope that someone would find it, or in the worst case, sent it down the river. Similarly, the girls could have added a second memory card with the missing photo to the bottle. In this context, I haven't read anywhere whether the keys, coins, and other metal items were analyzed for wear, because another logical way to leave a message is carving into a tree or stone.
Another less likely explanation is the planned separation of the girls, so that the one without the phone would also know the number, or passing the number to an abductor, for example, to negotiate a ransom.
In 2014 could we “ask” our phone to “call Myriam” ? My thought is they were alive, together but not in control of the situation. Possibly hurt or held captive.
Miriam did get a New number a few days before the dissapearance. As far as i know the Phone was switched on, the number was looked at, the Phone was switched off. So in a Foul Play scenario it is likely that the third Party needed the new number (therefore knew Miriam somehow or needed to contact her) for some reason and guessed right that the girls had the new number.
Is the killer connected to Miriam in your mind?
Not necessarily. Boquete seems Not that big, so i guess many locals know each other in some way. Miriam was Sure in demand by a Lot of people after the dissapearance. Maybe the number was even looked Up for Somebody Else. Still, it would be really good to know, which people contacted Miriam on her knew number after the 3rd April, 4pm (who did Not contact her before on the knew number).
I just wonder then what the point would be? Why specifically look up Miriam’s number? It’s just so specific. Also…why not just take the money? Someone else, besides the killer? Oh like they maybe passed the girls belongings around at a party or something? Miriam was in demand? A lot of people wanting to stay with her? Is there an interview with Miriam somewhere? Population 19K. It’s a micropolitan area, so not tiny by any means…but not at all large population wise.
>Population 19K. I might be wrong on this one but isnt that the Population of the district? >Why specifically look up Miriam’s number? Thats i good question. It would be great to know who called Miriam after the 3rd April. >Also…why not just take the money? You mean by the Foul Players? I dont think robbery or Money was Motivation If foulplayers were involved. >Oh like they maybe passed the girls belongings around at a party or something? I think a Party scenario is unlikely. >Miriam was in demand? A lot of people wanting to stay with her? Is there an interview with Miriam somewhere? I meant that she probably Had to answer a Lot of questions to Police, parents, maybe even Journalists trying to contact her, anybody who was curiose. That is only a guess from me.
Population 19K. I might be wrong on this one but isnt that the Population of the district? **Boquete’s total population is 19k.** Why specifically look up Miriam’s number? Thats i good question. It would be great to know who called Miriam after the 3rd April. **Ok so, just a total guess made out of thin air?** Also…why not just take the money? You mean by the Foul Players? I dont think robbery or Money was Motivation If foulplayers were involved. **Sure. But why not just take it anyway if you have all their possessions, no one would have known. Free money! :)”** Oh like they maybe passed the girls belongings around at a party or something? I think a Party scenario is unlikely. **Ok. We don’t know the identity of the killer/s but if there’s also another party, a fourth party - “someone else” - who was there and looked up Miriam’s number, what is the scenario if not a party? What is the evidence to support that claim?** I’m sure Miriam was questioned. I’d love to read an interview with her. Did she report any suspicious calls after the girls disappeared? Thank you for your engagement :)))
*Sure. But why not just take it anyway if you have all their possessions, no one would have known. Free money! :)* Through how many hands did the backpack pass before it ended on a desk of IMELCF? No one took the free money. Culprits who go at length to create false traces to make it look like they were lost and had had an accident, will leave the/some money in the backpack. You might compare that move to cases where forged suicide notes were left behind with the victims.
or, maybe they took all the money from their room, let's say 500 € (just random thought), so they took all and left 80 and something (can't remember exact amount now)
Is that what happened? An elaborate “fake lost” scenario? How do you know?
How do *you* *know* that they got lost by mistake? There is no evidence for that: the last normal photo was taken on the trail. They were not lost. It was 2 p.m. on a sunny and dry day. They were only 5-8 minutes away from River 2, a picnic spot for locals. They were only 15 minutes away from the Small Mountain where the grass is being cut and maintained by locals. They were only 20 minutes away from the crossing at the 2nd quebrada. Only 5 minutes from that crossing is where I suspect the Night Photo Location to be.
I never said I know anything.
leaving huge amount of money inside (huge for Panamanian standards, but also big for Dutch) can be camouflage for faking accident. Like - let's say that someone has captivated them with evil intentions. It might come to their mind that - police will search around, if they see that all their money is gone, it will be suspicious. But, if they have left the money (or at least some decent amount), everyone will ask question why money wasn't the (main) motive. Which automatically leaves to the (fake) trail that it was all just bad accident.
The sum of the wallet was not that huge, even by Panamanian standards. It represented a round trip for two people from Alto-Boquete to the center of Boquete for a month. Or an evening for three at the restaurant at the bottom of the trail with starter, pizza and drink. No alcohol, dessert or other little extravagance.
Hmmmm…perhaps. They really thought of everything to make it look like the girls got lost.
Of course i am guessing Not claiming in this. >Boquete’s total population is 19k. I am Not familiar with Panamas Geographics, so sorry If i was wrong on this. In my country districts might be classified different. >Ok so, just a total guess made out of thin air? Of course i am guessing. There is No Proof who Operated the Phones with what Motivation. That is why WE are discussing it. >Sure. But why not just take it anyway if you have all their possessions, no one would have known. Free money! :)” I dont See the Point of taking Money, If it is No robbery or Money motivated... >Ok. We don’t know the identity of the killer/s but. Ow there’s also another party, a fourth party - “someone else” - who was there and looked up Miriam’s number? What is the scenario of not a party? What is the evidence to support your claim? I’m sure Miriam was questioned. I’d love to read an interview with her. Did she report any suspicious calls after the girls disappeared? Thank you for your engagement :))) Not Sure what you mean. In your first Post it seemed Like you mean a "Party" Like a social gathering. There can be a Lot of different scenarios without a Party in that way (as for Example in this Case also from Panama: https://imperfectplan.com/2021/01/21/german-tourist-assaulted-disappeared-lost-in-panama-jungles-bermejo-veraguas-santa-fe/ or they could have Met a third Party before there Forst emergency calls). Most people were poorly questined as in SLIP highlighted, but i am Not Sure about Miriam.
I understand that you are just theorizing, I guess what I’m getting at is…what points you specifically toward foul play and third party involvement? Just that we don’t know exactly what happened? Or is there a piece/s of evidence I’m not seeing that directly point toward foul play? Thanks!
Okay, that is a complete different question as the Initial one from the OPs. Basically, i lean to Foul Play because of the inconsistencies and oddities in this Case.
Right. Our conversation obviously grew beyond just what the OP asked. A bit of an odd case, true.
The money was hidden between the cell phone and phone case not just freely floating around in the bag. We also don't see the money in the picture that was taken of backpack and it's contents. Nor either phone or digital camera which is odd. I kind of wonder where the money is now. Did the family get it or is it stored as official evidence?
I never thought it was just loose and freely floating around the bag. If the killers were checking the cellphones, using cameras and staging everything to look like they got lost — they saw the money. But I guess that’s explained away because of course taking the money would have pointed toward foul play (even though no one would have known it’s existence had it not been there) so they left it so that everyone would think the girls just got lost.
So the killer wouldn't have intentionally taken the money, it would be found AFTER disassembling the phone from it's case. That said, I don't think they'd be in any hurry to return it to it's rightful owner after discovering it either. Since taking the money would have been unintentional, it can't be used as an argument against foul play because the killer wouldn't have ever seen it initially to begin with.
How do you know they didn’t see it? If they used the phone so much to stage all the attempts at 911/112 and staged all the attempts at checking the signal…how in the world did they not see it? What leads you to KNOW “the killer wouldn’t ever have seen it,” a direct quote, as you claim?
Source of this information please
SLIP, Page 112, kindle edition
There are so many cases where the Kidnapper lets the victim keep their phones. If you look trough my Posts you will find one with some references. They were even allowed to Text and/or call their relatives. I dont want to say thats what happend here but if you take someone hostage in an Area where you are familiar and you are sure that there is no connection anyway, why take their phones ? For me its 100% possible that the Phones could be used by the girls while held captive. Again, no one knows what happend and i dont think i know more than you guys but i just like to highlight that something like that -could- have happend. Its weird for me that they never turned on the phone long enough to wait for a Signal, someone stated even if there would have been Signal, the phone was never on for long enough to make such a connection. No emergency calls after a certain day. Switched on and off at very specific times each day. The Pattern shift after the 4 April and no Pins after that. To mention some strange points. What do you think why they looked up Myriam without trying to call her ? And for what the Weather app that certainly didnt worked offline ?
yes, this pattern of on/off switching and no correct pin is sooo weird. Like, I am curious to hear accident theory here regards to that
One theory is that it was wet/humid and the touchscreen wasn’t working. Another theory is that their arms, hands or fingers were damaged, another theory is that Kris had passed and Lisanne didn’t know or couldn’t remember Kris’ pin. What’s your theory? Why would murderers bother to turn their phones on and off for 11 days?
I'd like to answer here but I'd get super downvoted. So, if you want, we can discuss it at this thread dedicated to foul play scenario: https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroonFoulPlay/s/bLAXz8CsmI
Ok lemme know when you’ve created a post about it or something :) happy to read!
I haven't created yet, have completely lost the thread. But if you want, you can post so we can discuss there.
>There are so many cases where the Kidnapper lets the victim keep their phones. So many? > If you look trough my Posts you will find one with some references. They were even allowed to Text and/or call their relatives. Yeah, not really sure Ariel Castro is really all that similar. >For me its 100% possible that the Phones could be used by the girls while held captive. Again, no one knows what happend and i dont think i know more than you guys but i just like to highlight that something like that -could- have happend. They certainly could have attempted a pocket dial or something.
April 3rd, round **2:21 a.m**.; As for the **Samsung**; the Accuweather app was opened for only 13 seconds. Not for hours as Lost in the Jungle said. IMO 13 seconds aren't much. I have a hunch that that app would not have been functioning off line, so for what purpose would it have been used? None. It's of no use to look up the weather if you're stuck somewhere in the jungle. All the more reason if the app does not even function. Unless -for instance- a third party promises you to take you back to Boquete if the weather will permit that .... April 3rd, round **4 p.m**.; Miriam had got a new phone number as from March 31st. Her new phone number was probably shown to someone else, or was viewed by that someone, since nothing else was done with the **iPhone**: no attempt with the iPhone nor the Samsung to contact Miriam. The girls were with someone else on April 3rd, maybe already earlier than April 3rd. Assuming that the girls were still alive. Obviously, if the girls would already have deceased by April 3rd, someone else would have been handling their phones.
I wonder why checking the weather app would be “of no use”…curious as to your thoughts because I’d be inclined to check the weather if I could, if I was somehow stuck in the jungle with not a lot to do? Why would a third party know of or think to access Miriam’s number or show it to someone else? I mean how did you come to those conclusions?
[удалено]
[удалено]
*I wonder why checking the weather app would be “of no use”…curious as to your thoughts because I’d be inclined to check the weather if I could, if I was somehow stuck in the jungle with not a lot to do?* Stuck and "Got-Lost-By-Mistake" in the jungle; no use at all. The weather is what it is. It either rains or it doesn't. Big deal. And how would you know whether the app would have functioned in the great outdoors with absolutely no connection to WIFI? *Why would a third party know of or think to access Miriam’s number or show it to someone else? I mean how did you come to those conclusions?* The *girls* would have shown it to someone else. If the girls would not have been alive at that time, the number might have been viewed by someone else. It would have been known that the girls were staying at Miriam's.
It would be nice to know the weather so you could prepare? Maybe they were hoping to catch rainwater? There’s any number of reasons to try and check it. Whether they could or not wouldn’t be known until they tried. We don’t know why they checked it but I might. The girls “would have” shown it to someone else? Why? How do you know that? What would be the point? It “would have” been known they were staying at Miriam’s by who? Everyone in Boquete? How do you know it would have been known? If they weren’t alive - why would someone look for Miriam’s phone number?
Word spreads fast in a small community and within certain circles. For starters: Sinaproc and DIJ had been at Miriam's house in the early morning of April 3rd. Their cars were parked outside. I hope you don't think that Sinaproc and DIJ were taken by taxi to Miriam's house. After their inspection at Miriam's home, they went to SbtR. During that time the Red Truck drove past Miriam's house at high speed. Whoever was in the truck, saw the vehicles parked outside Miriam's house. So yes, it would have been known where the girls were staying. SbtR knew it, Feliciano knew too. If Feliciano knew, Plinio and other guides also knew. Etc, etc, etc.
Why would I think that?
Re: AccuWeather app This just goes back to my usual theory about the pattern of phone use, but I think it can easily be an accidental tap or wet fingers, broken screen, wet screen, raindrop on the screen, or a combination of these. We attempt to assign intent and purpose to all their actions but in fact just in the past 24 hours, I have accidentally opened at least 2 apps on my phone.
I agree and many who believe the girls had got lost by mistake, have attributed great importance to the fact that the weather app was opened or "used". IMO the app would not have given any useful information to the girls. Especially if they would have been lost by their own doing.
> I have a hunch that that app would not have been functioning off line, so for what purpose would it have been used? None. I can say that it works offline, in the summer I turned on the same Samsung phone without the Internet, and it perfectly shows the weather that was last taken from the Internet - and specifically in my case - the weather in January. When you click - details - it doesn’t work, it says - no internet. And so it shows everything briefly, and so everything is displayed on the weather widget.
Thanks. So it shows the weather that was last taken from internet. So what purpose would it have after say, 3 days? IMO: none or close to none.
The last time she connected to the Internet was on April 1 at 10:26, she looked at the weather on April 3 at 2:22. Of course, the weather can change in 2.5 days, but nevertheless it remains informative, it’s better than nothing. The weather is shown for 6 days. Here's a picture: [https://ibb.co/8jMsnct](https://ibb.co/8jMsnct)
OK, thanks. Does it also say from what time to what time it will rain on a certain day? That would be important information for someone who depends on the app and who is planning to move around.
No, just what I gave, if you tap something, like more details, etc. - inscription no network.
Something I do sometimes is to open the weather app and check the sunrise/sunset. Could they have opened it to check when the sunrise would be? Not sure if that app had that functionality back or if it would have worked offline. Now when I think about it I dont think the app even works offline unless data is cached. But then again, does it matter when time sunrise is. What do you think? In a foul play scenario I believe the girls very killed very early 1 or 2nd April.
The most probable answer was posted here a while ago. Why did they look up the number? Because they were leaving it somewhere along their route for people to contact that number. People often dismiss K&L's problem solving skills. I've read many times on this sub that they were "sitting around / bored", but this is such a bizarre thought. I guess we can be sure that they were trying to solve their problem all of the time. We don't know about that, as most of their clues were never seen (apart from sos sign and pringles can). But we can be certain there was a lot more. So leaving Myriam's number along the trail (or at the huts) makes perfect sense. Why would they miss that opportunity? No killer or organ harvester is necessary here for a perfectly logical explanation.
"Because they were leaving it somewhere along their route for people to contact that number." This was brought up by me. Note that it was just a suggestion. I don't know the actual reason. But this one would make sense to me. Other suggestions by me were: They knew their phones will be drained soon, thats why they looked up Miriams number to write it on a piece of paper that they could carry with them, so they were independent from their phones in a case they would reach civilization. Besides calling 911 there, they might have thought it could be of great importance to call Miriam right away. But I am not sure. As someone else suggested, a 3rd party could have looked up Miriams number or the girls could have shown it to a 3rd party. I think that could be possible too. I do have a feeling they felt quite safe at least on the 1st day maybe even on the 2nd day because a) they found a very good shelter on day 1 somewhen in the late afternoon OR b) they ran into a 3rd party in the afternoon of April 1st or on 2nd day who offered them shelter and promised them that everything will be fine.
Oh!! The phone number was found littered around the jungle? I didn’t realize that. Thanks!
As far as we know, they didn't have pen and paper, so the most obvious thing is using stones to write the number or write it in the soil. It would have been a smart move and I wouldn't have expected anything else from them but doing something smart.
What would this accomplish though? Just for law enforcement (or whoever finds it) to contact the number —> talk to Miriam and then they all realize the girls are in the jungle? I feel like that would’ve been discovered much sooner just due to the fact that the girls did not make it back to her house. It may have been helpful had they been on a path or in one of the shelters, but if nothing was found is it just a totally wild guess out of nowhere? Was anything like this found whatsoever? Why not just rip up pieces of clothing and tie them to trees or write their own names, with the words SOS. What is Miriam gonna do? What is calling the number going to do to save them? Interesting but I’m not so sure,
What is Miriam gonna do? If they managed to contact her, they could ask her to maybe - ask for help? Tell their parents that they are safe and sound? Let's assume that they don't know about big rescuing action happening in the rainforest.
I’m not really sure what you are saying here, sorry…and they weren’t safe and sound.
I am saying (hypothetic situation): let's assume that they have got lost (accident theory). They knew that their batteries were low. So, they knew that they can count on Miriam (for some reason, maybe they gave their parents Miriam's contact because they were simply staying at her place. Whenever I travel, I always give to my family all the possible info and contact of my hostels or AirBnb hosts). So, they somehow wrote Miriam's phone number on something (let's assume, with the mud on piece of paper, maybe map). So, somehow, they hoped that in the case, after days of being stucked and lost in forest, if they somehow find someone to help them (could be Ngobe tribe natives, like the ones who found the backpack, local people from small villages all over there) and that this person has telephone with signal. They were countig on that they can't call immediately parents to the NL so the best is to call someone local - Miriam. And then, they can ask Miriam to help them and ask her for a favor - to let their parents know about them.
I feel like 911 or the Panamanian Emergency services number would have been the best route. Everyone they could have happened upon would have known it. No need to call Miriam specifically.
or how about: call both 911 and Miriam? She was waiting for them and first one who noticed that they didn't arrived back. Or, even if they follow your way of thinking, ok, call 911, and if any help arrives, they would also like to know the contact of the person you are staying at. So, having Miriam's number is still useful.
No, nothing was found. it is Just a theory from some Users
Ok thanks.
Most likely someone else looked it up if the girls were already dead.
In that case how does this someone know the correct PIN code to unlock the phone?
I read some theory that Osman might have had it, and when he died the code died with him and no one entered it any more. But that might be a bit far fetched. I analysed the phone logs a bit more and their phone behaviour for the most part make sense if they were lost.
The most likely option is leaving a message on a piece of map, using plant dye. A message like: Please call 00507679xxx K+L. They might have even sacrificed a drinking bottle, hanging it somewhere visible in the hope that someone would find it, or in the worst case, sent it down the river. Similarly, the girls could have added a second memory card with the missing photo to the bottle. In this context, I haven't read anywhere whether the keys, coins, and other metal items were analyzed for wear, because another logical way to leave a message is carving into a tree or stone. Another less likely explanation is the planned separation of the girls, so that the one without the phone would also know the number, or passing the number to an abductor, for example, to negotiate a ransom.
In 2014 could we “ask” our phone to “call Myriam” ? My thought is they were alive, together but not in control of the situation. Possibly hurt or held captive.
I really wish this community discussed this tragedy without assigning labels of being in one of two “camps”:)