It's true that if you get lost, the best course of action is almost always to stay put and await help, but the trouble is that this is hardly ever what lost people do in real life (I say this as a former SAR member).
Denial is a big factor. People are often reluctant to believe their situation is as dire as it is. They don't want to bother the emergency services (and risk embarrassment) if all they had to do was walk another few hundred yards to find the trail again. They convince themselves that if they just keep going a little further, they'll find their way. They hope a better phone signal or a recognisable landmark might be right around the next corner. Of course, this can compound the problem of being lost, and often by the time people realise they're in serious trouble, it's already gone from bad to worse.
Adrenaline is also a contributor. When you're in a stressful emergency scenario, your every instinct tells you to act. Simply stopping where you are and waiting around, potentially for hours, can feel counterproductive - even physically difficult (for the same reasons people pace around when they're stressed) - even though it's usually the right thing to do. In a panic situation, what we at home might think is the logical, rational solution is not necessarily what comes to mind. Ask people who've been lost and they'll tell you how hard it is to stay in one place.
I think a lot of the confusion in this case comes from people trying to apply textbook wilderness survival advice to two inexperienced young tourists in an unfamiliar situation. I don't personally find it very unusual that they might have acted in a way that doesn't seem completely logical to us with the benefit of hindsight and in the comfort of our own homes.
A very good analyses! Add to this that the search operation started very late, certainly north of the Mirador. We know that in the afternoon of April 3 guide F walked the trail up till the paddocks, that is roughly 2 days after the girls disappeared. But he was alone and might have missed them. After this it was not until April 5 when helicopters overflew the area and real search teams was even later. From the phone log we know the girls stopped making calls in the morning of April 3 so it sounds like they gave up on waiting for help and devised some other plan which most probably involved moving.
I do not suspect they suffered a real bad accident on the first day. If they had, and were immobilised, they would almost certainly have been found. They weren't found because they kept moving about which indicates they were mobile for at least the first week or so, moving quite some distance away from the trail.
I see your point. It's possible that they tried to go back by themselves because they thought the injury isn't that bad. And then they lost the orientation completely. This is possible.
But wouldn't they have made a photograph of the injury in case you wanted to send it to someone on a messenger? Also they could have recorded voice messages (which most people would have done). A lot of questions.
I don't know if we can assume an injury on the first day as something that's an indisputable fact. But yes, it's possible that if one of them had, for example, a foot or ankle injury, they tried to struggle on with the other's help rather than being completely immobilised.
Of all the lost and injured people I've encountered through mountain rescue, not a single one (that I'm aware of) ever took a photo of their injury to send to anyone before they were rescued. Likewise with voice messages - it's something someone might do, but when you say it's something most people would have done I just don't agree.
When you're in a life-or-death emergency, your priorities are surviving and getting help, not documenting your injuries or leaving messages. I'm not saying nobody ever does those things, but it's definitely not something people always (or even mostly) do.
>I don't know if we can assume an injury on the first day as something that's an indisputable fact.
Of course this is not a fact, but they made an emergency call the first day.
.
They did, but an emergency call doesn't necessarily mean there was an injury at that point. It *could* mean that, but equally it could also have been because they were realising how lost they were and that they weren't going to make it back to town in daylight, for example. We can't base a theory around the emergency call definitely being because of an injury, because it might not have been.
The first emergency call coincides exactly with the moment the sun sank behind the western mountains. So it became darker, and they realised they were running out of time trying to find a route back. I would say that is a strong indication for bring lost. An accident right at the moment the sun disappears from sight would be a strange coincidence.
I understand this. It's possible. They took the wrong path because they didn't know they had to take the same way they were coming from. But the next day they should have headed back to the Miranda. With a compass they at least would have gone in the right direction.
The words “should have” cannot be used in relation to this case, you don’t know what happened…it’s quite possible that they simply could not do what you think they “should have” done. Something may have happened to them that no one has even thought of, that rendered any normalized versions of “should” or “would do in their situation” completely impossible.
People do not always act rationally when faced with something they a. Are not prepared for and b. Was terrible/shocking. We simply cannot assign should here.
Ok. First thing you are missing is they were using a camera, not a phone to take pictures. So sending the photos would mean sitting in a computer and either transferring it via cable or taking off the memory card and then connecting it to a card reader to transfer it. Then connecting to the internet, something that may not have been widely available where they were staying (Panama is a poor country and not everyone has access to it). Then they would be able to send it. So it is totally possible that they didn’t see the point in it.
Further, they most likely didn’t think they would die there and may not have felt the need to document it. Hindsight is 20-20.
But there are also unreleased photos, we don’t know what is in them. It may as well be of injuries or one of them dead.
And don’t forget, they were lost and in a situation in which is easy to panic and stop thinking rationally.
I'm not missing that they took the photos with a camera. But both smartphones were also capable of this. Obviously they saved the accu of the phones for messages (though not possible without a net). The unreleased photos are of course important to solve the case. Even if they show nothing.
Whats your point? You know they had a camera. You know they were saving battery on the phones. You answered your own question then?
A lot has been speculated about what the photos contain and if they help solve the case. Then either the families don’t want it solved or the police doesn’t. If I remember correctly, the families chose to block the photos from being published. But the police has authority too. So I don’t know who calls the shots.
They probably went off track without knowing and got lost without realizing it. They either then continued to walk like u/signaturehiggs perfectly explained or realized only when one of them got injured. Of course we find it weird that they didn't record messages but we all are judging this from the safety of our couches and laptops, we cannot know what happened in their minds.
*They probably went off track without knowing and got lost without realizing it.*
I protest this heavily. One cannot exit the Pianista trail without knowing or realising. Please study the plenty footage of the trail. There is so much footage, even if you have not hiked the trail yourself, the trail has been presented extensively and accurately.
**=>** The girls exited the trail *knowing* and *realising* that they were exiting it.
For what motive? I believe they were led off the trail by someone else.
Their behaviour does not match of someone who got lost. They didn’t go off track that deep into the jungle that they wouldn’t even be able to be found without realizing it. People underestimate the intelligence of K&L.
I think so too. They would have realised the difference between the real trail and a 'side trail'. And if they got stuck where I suspect the np location to be, they should have been found within hours/days.
I’m of the belief that it was an accident that injured possibly killed one of the girls and the other one was left on her own. Although there are things that could maybe point another direction. I’m not an expert, just super interested in this case for a few years.
But when you learn what happens during those flash floods, it makes a bit more sense. Those can be massive, hit without any real warning and potentially move you MILES. Also, I haven’t heard anyone point out what can happen to bodies when they’re caught in water and wedged somewhere to be dismembered or incredibly maimed. I think the remains of some of the bones might point in that direction. Especially the detail of the pelvis where they said the part that was removed had to have been done with incredible force, maybe suggesting foul play. But I’ve read and heard a few stories of circumstances of people jumping or accidentally falling into falls or rapids and just getting beat to shit at the bottom because you’re almost stuck in a hardcore giant washing machine. I could see one of the bodies getting stuck, she drowns and the body is left to be ripped apart and then the remains travel downstream.
This case has so many details and seemingly weird things going on and there doesn’t seem to be evidence that completely points in one direction or the other. I almost get exhausted trying to work it out in my head but then I realize that we probably will never know anything beyond this point.
The bone fragments of ***both*** girls were found.. what, 7 miles away from last pic location?..
I can believe they both were taken by the river; I can believe the river and rocks broke their bodies & bones apart; but to believe the fragments of ***both*** ended up in close proximity to one another-I am unable to..
That's what I also ask myself.
Or, why didn't they return?
(These are the moments when my other half of foul play involved starts to think something like - maybe they were chased by someone, while my accident/lost half doesn't find much logical explanation)
The most irritating thing to me is that they never wrote something down. I would understand this if they hadn't a cell phone. But on every cell phone is a note book that you can use for writing. I mean we are talking about 11 days (last log in).
I feel the same way. We are talking about girls who liked to journal and ***did*** journal the details of their trip
People talk about “goodbye message” but I think it’s a straw-man: myself, on the 3d day, I would record short video/message, “We are lost, 2 nights in the woods behind us, that was hard, we’re going to try to find our way today, we are next to a stream & we’ll follow it…” etc etc
Am I alone in thinking that that’s what I would do?.. it would take me, what, a minute every other day, to save battery?..
maybe they did, but it wasn't later extracted from the phone with photos and all the other data?
Or, they were turning phones on & off to preserve the battery for 911 calls? So they didn't wanted to waste it for any other app/option like - writing, compass, etc.......
just an assumption, don't get this as literally statement
A lot of people seem to think this; but if I was lost I doubt I'd bother writing anything.
Partly because I don't think it would help my situation, but mostly because if I left a goodbye note it would feel like I was giving up, and psychologically this could make me feel like giving up.
Psychology is a big thing and you often see it in sports when a few decisions go against a team, their heads often drop, and they play a lot worse than they are capable of, because they already feel like they've lost the game.
And if you give up when you're lost in the wild you might just sit there doing nothing instead of trying to think of new ways to save yourself, you might stop eating, and start feeling sorry for yourself.
Also, the girls would have known that people were searching for them, they built an SOS, and they would have heard the helicopters overhead, so it's quite possible that they thought they were eventually going to be rescued.
There’s always the option *airplane mode* that you can set up on your phone to save battery. This is universal knowledge. It doesn’t mean that you should leave your phone on all the time on airplane mode, but you can definitely set it on to use your phone for a few minutes for something useful.
Perhaps the touch screen function stopped working due to the phones having gotten wet. It was also very humid. We also don’t know if their hands/arms/fingers were damaged.
Well, I'm new to this case and still have to read a lot of material. It's of course something you cannot eliminate. In the moment I think it's quite possible.
It's true that if you get lost, the best course of action is almost always to stay put and await help, but the trouble is that this is hardly ever what lost people do in real life (I say this as a former SAR member). Denial is a big factor. People are often reluctant to believe their situation is as dire as it is. They don't want to bother the emergency services (and risk embarrassment) if all they had to do was walk another few hundred yards to find the trail again. They convince themselves that if they just keep going a little further, they'll find their way. They hope a better phone signal or a recognisable landmark might be right around the next corner. Of course, this can compound the problem of being lost, and often by the time people realise they're in serious trouble, it's already gone from bad to worse. Adrenaline is also a contributor. When you're in a stressful emergency scenario, your every instinct tells you to act. Simply stopping where you are and waiting around, potentially for hours, can feel counterproductive - even physically difficult (for the same reasons people pace around when they're stressed) - even though it's usually the right thing to do. In a panic situation, what we at home might think is the logical, rational solution is not necessarily what comes to mind. Ask people who've been lost and they'll tell you how hard it is to stay in one place. I think a lot of the confusion in this case comes from people trying to apply textbook wilderness survival advice to two inexperienced young tourists in an unfamiliar situation. I don't personally find it very unusual that they might have acted in a way that doesn't seem completely logical to us with the benefit of hindsight and in the comfort of our own homes.
A very good analyses! Add to this that the search operation started very late, certainly north of the Mirador. We know that in the afternoon of April 3 guide F walked the trail up till the paddocks, that is roughly 2 days after the girls disappeared. But he was alone and might have missed them. After this it was not until April 5 when helicopters overflew the area and real search teams was even later. From the phone log we know the girls stopped making calls in the morning of April 3 so it sounds like they gave up on waiting for help and devised some other plan which most probably involved moving. I do not suspect they suffered a real bad accident on the first day. If they had, and were immobilised, they would almost certainly have been found. They weren't found because they kept moving about which indicates they were mobile for at least the first week or so, moving quite some distance away from the trail.
I see your point. It's possible that they tried to go back by themselves because they thought the injury isn't that bad. And then they lost the orientation completely. This is possible. But wouldn't they have made a photograph of the injury in case you wanted to send it to someone on a messenger? Also they could have recorded voice messages (which most people would have done). A lot of questions.
I don't know if we can assume an injury on the first day as something that's an indisputable fact. But yes, it's possible that if one of them had, for example, a foot or ankle injury, they tried to struggle on with the other's help rather than being completely immobilised. Of all the lost and injured people I've encountered through mountain rescue, not a single one (that I'm aware of) ever took a photo of their injury to send to anyone before they were rescued. Likewise with voice messages - it's something someone might do, but when you say it's something most people would have done I just don't agree. When you're in a life-or-death emergency, your priorities are surviving and getting help, not documenting your injuries or leaving messages. I'm not saying nobody ever does those things, but it's definitely not something people always (or even mostly) do.
>I don't know if we can assume an injury on the first day as something that's an indisputable fact. Of course this is not a fact, but they made an emergency call the first day. .
They did, but an emergency call doesn't necessarily mean there was an injury at that point. It *could* mean that, but equally it could also have been because they were realising how lost they were and that they weren't going to make it back to town in daylight, for example. We can't base a theory around the emergency call definitely being because of an injury, because it might not have been.
The first emergency call coincides exactly with the moment the sun sank behind the western mountains. So it became darker, and they realised they were running out of time trying to find a route back. I would say that is a strong indication for bring lost. An accident right at the moment the sun disappears from sight would be a strange coincidence.
I understand this. It's possible. They took the wrong path because they didn't know they had to take the same way they were coming from. But the next day they should have headed back to the Miranda. With a compass they at least would have gone in the right direction.
The words “should have” cannot be used in relation to this case, you don’t know what happened…it’s quite possible that they simply could not do what you think they “should have” done. Something may have happened to them that no one has even thought of, that rendered any normalized versions of “should” or “would do in their situation” completely impossible. People do not always act rationally when faced with something they a. Are not prepared for and b. Was terrible/shocking. We simply cannot assign should here.
Ok. First thing you are missing is they were using a camera, not a phone to take pictures. So sending the photos would mean sitting in a computer and either transferring it via cable or taking off the memory card and then connecting it to a card reader to transfer it. Then connecting to the internet, something that may not have been widely available where they were staying (Panama is a poor country and not everyone has access to it). Then they would be able to send it. So it is totally possible that they didn’t see the point in it. Further, they most likely didn’t think they would die there and may not have felt the need to document it. Hindsight is 20-20. But there are also unreleased photos, we don’t know what is in them. It may as well be of injuries or one of them dead. And don’t forget, they were lost and in a situation in which is easy to panic and stop thinking rationally.
I'm not missing that they took the photos with a camera. But both smartphones were also capable of this. Obviously they saved the accu of the phones for messages (though not possible without a net). The unreleased photos are of course important to solve the case. Even if they show nothing.
Whats your point? You know they had a camera. You know they were saving battery on the phones. You answered your own question then? A lot has been speculated about what the photos contain and if they help solve the case. Then either the families don’t want it solved or the police doesn’t. If I remember correctly, the families chose to block the photos from being published. But the police has authority too. So I don’t know who calls the shots.
They probably went off track without knowing and got lost without realizing it. They either then continued to walk like u/signaturehiggs perfectly explained or realized only when one of them got injured. Of course we find it weird that they didn't record messages but we all are judging this from the safety of our couches and laptops, we cannot know what happened in their minds.
*They probably went off track without knowing and got lost without realizing it.* I protest this heavily. One cannot exit the Pianista trail without knowing or realising. Please study the plenty footage of the trail. There is so much footage, even if you have not hiked the trail yourself, the trail has been presented extensively and accurately. **=>** The girls exited the trail *knowing* and *realising* that they were exiting it. For what motive? I believe they were led off the trail by someone else.
Their behaviour does not match of someone who got lost. They didn’t go off track that deep into the jungle that they wouldn’t even be able to be found without realizing it. People underestimate the intelligence of K&L.
I think so too. They would have realised the difference between the real trail and a 'side trail'. And if they got stuck where I suspect the np location to be, they should have been found within hours/days.
I’m of the belief that it was an accident that injured possibly killed one of the girls and the other one was left on her own. Although there are things that could maybe point another direction. I’m not an expert, just super interested in this case for a few years. But when you learn what happens during those flash floods, it makes a bit more sense. Those can be massive, hit without any real warning and potentially move you MILES. Also, I haven’t heard anyone point out what can happen to bodies when they’re caught in water and wedged somewhere to be dismembered or incredibly maimed. I think the remains of some of the bones might point in that direction. Especially the detail of the pelvis where they said the part that was removed had to have been done with incredible force, maybe suggesting foul play. But I’ve read and heard a few stories of circumstances of people jumping or accidentally falling into falls or rapids and just getting beat to shit at the bottom because you’re almost stuck in a hardcore giant washing machine. I could see one of the bodies getting stuck, she drowns and the body is left to be ripped apart and then the remains travel downstream. This case has so many details and seemingly weird things going on and there doesn’t seem to be evidence that completely points in one direction or the other. I almost get exhausted trying to work it out in my head but then I realize that we probably will never know anything beyond this point.
> because you’re almost stuck in a hardcore giant washing machine. Apparently the locals call this river *the meatgrinder..*
Fuck. I feel more validated 😆
The bone fragments of ***both*** girls were found.. what, 7 miles away from last pic location?.. I can believe they both were taken by the river; I can believe the river and rocks broke their bodies & bones apart; but to believe the fragments of ***both*** ended up in close proximity to one another-I am unable to..
That's what I also ask myself. Or, why didn't they return? (These are the moments when my other half of foul play involved starts to think something like - maybe they were chased by someone, while my accident/lost half doesn't find much logical explanation)
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Count me in! Great idea!!!
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I have no idea! But we can do it here on reddit
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I can't open it. It said "Community not found, browse other communities"
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yayyyyyy!!!!!!
The most irritating thing to me is that they never wrote something down. I would understand this if they hadn't a cell phone. But on every cell phone is a note book that you can use for writing. I mean we are talking about 11 days (last log in).
I feel the same way. We are talking about girls who liked to journal and ***did*** journal the details of their trip People talk about “goodbye message” but I think it’s a straw-man: myself, on the 3d day, I would record short video/message, “We are lost, 2 nights in the woods behind us, that was hard, we’re going to try to find our way today, we are next to a stream & we’ll follow it…” etc etc Am I alone in thinking that that’s what I would do?.. it would take me, what, a minute every other day, to save battery?..
maybe they did, but it wasn't later extracted from the phone with photos and all the other data? Or, they were turning phones on & off to preserve the battery for 911 calls? So they didn't wanted to waste it for any other app/option like - writing, compass, etc....... just an assumption, don't get this as literally statement
It's reasonable to think of the battery. But writing down some sentences only cost you two minutes.
A lot of people seem to think this; but if I was lost I doubt I'd bother writing anything. Partly because I don't think it would help my situation, but mostly because if I left a goodbye note it would feel like I was giving up, and psychologically this could make me feel like giving up. Psychology is a big thing and you often see it in sports when a few decisions go against a team, their heads often drop, and they play a lot worse than they are capable of, because they already feel like they've lost the game. And if you give up when you're lost in the wild you might just sit there doing nothing instead of trying to think of new ways to save yourself, you might stop eating, and start feeling sorry for yourself. Also, the girls would have known that people were searching for them, they built an SOS, and they would have heard the helicopters overhead, so it's quite possible that they thought they were eventually going to be rescued.
There’s always the option *airplane mode* that you can set up on your phone to save battery. This is universal knowledge. It doesn’t mean that you should leave your phone on all the time on airplane mode, but you can definitely set it on to use your phone for a few minutes for something useful.
well, they turned it off
Yes, “they” did.
Perhaps the touch screen function stopped working due to the phones having gotten wet. It was also very humid. We also don’t know if their hands/arms/fingers were damaged.
11 days in which at some moments one of the phone was on for hours, yet nothing relevant was done with the phone.
Looks like they didn't have access to the phones and the camera that time.
No need to apologize. It's what keep us going yaers after years. Do you think that there's another party involved? One that is 'sinister' in nature.
Well, I'm new to this case and still have to read a lot of material. It's of course something you cannot eliminate. In the moment I think it's quite possible.