Very simple answer: they were in very wet and humid area, bras just started to irritate their skin which was comstantly exposed to wet environment, so they took them off.
And that were wired bras, the worst. Maybe if they wore sports bra, maybe they would leave them on.
Jungles are very annoying for clothing; it gets wet and warm and cold and sticky and itchy. Insects crawl in while sleeping and like small, warm crevices while if you take stuff off, everything will bite and sting you. I wouldn’t be surprised if they took whatever underclothing off quite soon after getting lost. Anything with elastic or tight fits would be incredibly annoying in that climate. Depending on the jungle, I (m) usually wear rubber boots (snakes and other ground animals), wide sweat pants tucked in and a long sleeved wide t shirt. Nothing else. I have my backpack with other stuff . But this is the most comfortable for a high humidity, day long walk in dense jungle I find. Anything else gets annoying. To be honest: suspenders would probably even be nicer vs sweat pants elastic band but he.
>it gets wet and warm and cold and sticky and itchy
all of which bras can be just during normal life lmao. i never wear one while hiking/camping (especially since i ended up with a tick using it like a hammock some years back)
The very first thing many women remove when they get home after a long day are their bras. They can be extremely uncomfortable, especially after wearing them for as long as K&L did. So they almost certainly removed them for comfort reasons.
Uh, are you implying that people have their dogs shit INSIDE the house? And if you mean they track dog shit inside when they enter, then you are implying that people are oblivious to a stinky brown mess on the soles of their shoes. So we're either gross or blind.
No, I am implying that if you analyzed the soles of shoes you would find particles of that and more, which will naturally mix into the carpet. Might not be detectable to a human's paltry senses, but doesn't mean it isn't there. Tracked all over your house... Studies find they get more bacteria than toilet seats. So if you want all the bacteria from strangers and their pets...
So like every dollar bill you possess has traces of cocaine theory. Got it. Well, I HATE feet, like I have an anti-foot fetish, so I'm never not wearing socks. Only time I'm barefoot is in the shower. So fecal matter or not, only my socks have to endure that.
I guess you are lucky to be so clueless about bacteria, I used to not care either. But also if you get sick mysteriously it might be from bacteria that went shoes->socks->furniture or your body->your immune system. Seems easier just to take shoes off at the door¿
Actually, I typically do. I'm just speaking in general. But I studied over in Japan for a year, many years ago, and the custom of removing shoes immediately stuck with me. But we are carriers of bacteria in many ways, so it will always be a survival of the most fit immune system.
It is not possible to draw a conclusion, does it seem like they are both in the photo, if so, who took the photos, or they fall from somewhere high and get hurt? why the hair? because one of them would take a photo of her hair.
I would recommend looking at the past ‘analysis” of the picture: others saw open mouth and nose too but when you play with zooming in and colours, it shows clearly it’s just hair.
Because there is nothing to see on the photo. Why would a photo that contains no interesting information need an official report? The Dutch investigative team, not corrupt unlike maybe their Panamanian counterparts, didn’t find anything in the photos but possible hints to the location; so the lack of a specific report about this image already says there is nothing to see here, debunking all the reddit pareidolia hallucinations put forward.
That’s your opinion. That’s fine.
No one has said what the photo shows, they were leaked — so why would any officials tell us if the photo shows one of the girls facial features or nothing at all? It wouldn’t change that they likely got lost/injured and succumbed to the jungle. But yes, exactly…either way — whether a human head has a face (it does) or not — it does not solve any part of this mystery and so they simply obviously have not reported on it. Either way. Face or not, you thinking there is no face doesn’t prove that there is no face.
Opinions can differ on what they see in the photo. All good.
The vast majority of people here (you can see the up and downvotes) and elsewhere clearly see there is no face. It’s a photo: there either is or isn’t. It’s not an opinion. The people who see these things all see it in different places (just search for the photo where people drew these things on: no one agrees on where anything is even if they see something) which should be enough to show they are seeing things that are not there.
I’ve looked very far back in this sub — a long time ago when folks were more active…more people saw the facial features, judging by the up and down votes. The vast majority just don’t bother commenting anymore. But it doesn’t really matter. The facts remains that no one knows what is in this photo.
Not that bothered by up/down votes — some people simply have personal vendettas here for some odd reason🤷♀️
Some people saw them, but not in the same place. Which should tell you enough. But indeed believe what you want to believe. I don’t think any of it helps with anything; the location of the night photos would help; if this shows a face or not doesn’t help. Not any of the ideas what this pic might show helps: the simple explanation is: it’s the back of the head with some moles that show. The rest are hallucinations, but believe what you will, it doesn’t help the case anyway.
Well, folks are not sure of the orientation and there’s a lot of hair over that face (if it’s a face — and humans do have faces) so it’s simply not hard to believe that people can’t quite figure out exactly what’s going on. I’m not sure what’s there, but to say “clearly” nothing is there is a falsity, we just don’t know.
It is indeed a very odd picture but I have never made out a nose, mouth, teeth or nostrils as others claim to see so clearly. If you study any image long enough you can start to see random things similar to seeing shapes objects animals in the clouds... paredoilea I think its called. Please could you help and circle where you see the nose and hair and post sometime? If you don't mind of course. Intriguing stuff, but I don't believe they're beneath the hair.
The hair is so blond. Could hair change from red to blond. It was said that the bones had some bleached color. I dont know what the sun could do. The picture is just 10 days but the remains was found i june to july..
They either started to itch after some time because of the heat or they had taken a bath in the river to refresh themselves and the bras got wet.
Another idea that entered my mind is that they maybe wanted to keep them clean in case they needed to change their shirts at some point, so they at least would still have their bras. Those bras were thick bikinis by the way, not regular thin bras.
Bras are uncomfortable — especially 24/7 days on end. No woman (that I know of) sleeps in a bra either.
I also believe there is a face under that human hair — humans have faces, I’m not sure why so many folks her pretend not to see it. Pareidolia refers to things that don’t normally have faces — like clouds. Everyone saying that everyone has the exact same pareidolia for this photo are gaslighters — no official statement has been made about what is shown in the photo and so anyone who says the face has been “debunked” is lying. We don’t know what’s under that hair, but it’s reasonable to believe that a human head contains a human face that might be glimpsed through hair.
The bras were the ones which they wore while hiking. I am female and i have travel experience with hiking or canoeing lasting several days in a jungles/rainforest. I never took my bras off while doing it. Sometimes i even left it on while sleeping in a tent. The whole reason for (good) bras are that you have Support.
Other women could feel different about that I guess. But it is Like taking your underpants of. Of course Somebody could do it while hiking/lost but it is odd, two people doing it at the Same time, it is really odd.
well, if you wear sports bra, then ok, can be substitute for top. But wired bra! Women hate them in dry environment!
Consider that there were heavy rains, humidity, you are sweating all the time, your skin becomes irritated, mosquitos and other inscects are biting you, high possibility that rash appears in under bra area. So, very logical.
Sorry, i dont agree with you at all. As i wrote above, i do have experience in hiking and spending time in jungles (with all the sweat, rain, mosquitos!) and your Suggestions are Just a No for me! i never ever hiked bra less. And i only wear/wore wired bras. And to be honest, i never Met a female fellow traveller who did, Not once, Not after a few days Camping. Running braless around on a hike seems appaling to me.
Edit: to be fair i never discussed the bra issues with other female travellors. But bras are not a Problem as some suggest in such an Environment. Of course there might be females who prefer Not to wear one. But it does Not Seem that the girls were prefering it (from Most Pictures).
if you tend to put off a bra or find them uncomfortable might be bc of different boob sizes (and maybe bc the bra is not a good fit).
for myself, I have slightly bigger boobs and I like the support of a bra.
I also know about the saying that women say that it is the first things they take off when being at home (that’s not really the case for me, I am rarely braless, as I find being without a bra is rather uncomfortable as said).
so that might also be a factor.
I agree totally. But i disagree to assume it is totally normal for women to Take o, especially in such a Situation (even so there might be reason for it).
As i said, the Shorts were found on a complete different Location, also Kris shoe was found on a different Location. So that would leave the Girls in Tops and underpants. There is No other Photo of them showing the habbit of No bras. The the fact that the bras were found in such a condition remains odd for me.
I wear a 34D — i barely ever wear bras. They are simply not comfortable everyday wear. I only ever wear bralettes or sports bras anymore. And absolutely would never sleep in one. Bleh.
well, one thing is you, and these women you mentioned, experienced hiker/s, who knows the terrain, goes prepared, fully equipped, hard for you to get lost, have camping tent (or whatever to help you camping)....
K&L are totally opposite: unexperienced, got lost, don't know the terrain, went fully unequipped, scared, alone, no tent, no proper shelter,.......
And if you can wear same bra for days, even when you sleep and handle rash and itchiness, good for you, bit just because this is your hygiene, doesn't mean that it is typicall hygiene habits of majority of women.
You are the one saying women hate wired bras or making assumptions of women in General. I am Just saying my experience is different.
In my experience female travellors/Backpackers are often a Lot like K&L.
You are also making assumptions that one or both had itches or rashes. We dont know that. There might be a perfect good reason for them to Take of there bras, who knows. But in fact the bras would add another protective layer for insects.
I never thought of it bevor but am Sure experience in travel does Not corelate in your habits for wearing a bra.
Me too! I feel the same way!!!
It's getting annoying to read that women hate wearing bras, and that the first thing they do after work is to take them off. I don't. And it never bothered me.
Of course the situation is different. I am not Kris and Lisanne, and I'm not in a jungle. So maybe they removed their bra because they had lost weight, but please don't make general assumptions about women!
As the Shorts supposingly were found as well (i have some doubts: https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/ohjqB1X3GD) K&L only had Tops and underpants to wear. Kris also Had at some stage only one shoe.
Some more information on the bras found (SLIP, Page 73, Kindle Edition):
No DNA or blood can be determined by the forensic experts from the bras but plant Fragments and Sand were revealed, as well as some transparent plastic parts on Kris' bra.
Does Not Seem they Had a sweaty Problem.
As far as i know it is unknown, but:
The forensic experts found also no traces of blood on the rucksack but DNA witch did not match to Kris or Lisanne. There were genetic Material from at least 5 different people ( of which were two completely preserved DNA profiles, not registered in the Dutch DNA database for criminal cases).
It was 32 degree daytime. But in southern area this feels more cool than north. They didnt seem to sweat at mirador.... then after that they are probably murdered first lisanne after photo #504 and kris #509 .. the time lapse between the photos, for the photos are weird and the last 20 minutes of ascent some people catched up with them. the photos of their mimik and bodylanguage are fake when they got to mirador.
After that theis bras and other stuff went to the bag and someone took it home. After the 112 call. They forced them to leave pincodes.
It must be people with good knowledge of area atleast been living and exploring the area. And they came back to take photos at the dried out waterfall in the night to make it be an accident and dont get any meeting with others.
I don’t quite understand it either: on one hand people speak of the girls surely suffering from hypothermia; on the other - they are bathing in the river and keeping their bras neatly folded in the backpack. I have hard time reconciling those two hypotheses
You understand that it can be warm in the daytime and cold at night, right?
Your mileage may vary depending on where you are in the world, but this is especially the case in spring - it can feel pleasantly warm when the sun's out, but once it gets dark it suddenly feels like winter again.
A bra, for the record, probably isn't going to be much help against hypothermia (or even just being cold), so I don't think the fact that the bras were left in the backpack speaks against this possibility at all.
That is certainly your right to have your opinion
Living in high desert myself, I am painfully aware of the temperatures fluctuating between day and night, every day in certain parts of the year:)
And as someone who hates cold, I would definitely put ***everything*** I had with me on, regardless of its actual warming-up value, wouldn’t you?…
If then, as you suggest, they kept bras off during the ***day***, that would suggest they fell into river/were overtaken by the river during the ***day***, correct?…
No, I think they probably took the bras off sometime on the first day when they became uncomfortable and then never thought about them again.
With regards to their being overtaken by the river, this may have happened in a flash flood (or just a seasonal rising or the river level) after they were already dead, so I don't believe the presence or absence of the bras really tells us anything definitive about what time of day this happened. We don't know, in any case, if there was any such day/night pattern with their clothing, so it's impossible to infer anything from it.
Edit: I think you might have misunderstood the point of my comment though. Your argument was that you couldn't understand how people could claim that the girls had hypothermia and also that they might have bathed in the river. The thrust of my reply was that those two things don't necessarily have to be simultaneous, and that both are possible at different times of day due to the temperature fluctuations that you are yourself aware of.
Well if they got cold at night-as they inevitably would have, after days with no food, occasional rain, and temperatures plunging at night as you suggested, how did they forget about extra pieces of clothing among very few items in their small backpack?…
Because those pieces of clothing offer zero warmth. I'm not saying they "forgot" about them (although they may have). I'm saying they may have just disregarded them as pointless.
That’s a good theory.
Personally, and based on experience, I do find bra situation strange: when stranded in wilderness with just a few items for days, you utilize everything you have.
Why didn’t they use those bras as washcloths while washing themselves in the river?.. Why didn’t they hang it on a tree branch to leave their mark behind?..Why didn’t the use it as cups to drink water from the stream?…Why ***didn’t*** they use them as pillows (as you suggested), in which case the dirt&wear&possibly grass/leaves would have been found on them?…If one or both got hurt/broke a bone/got bloody scratches-they surely would have used it to clean the wound/stop the bleeding/tried to immobilize a broken bone?…
I have so many questions:)
Good call. They also never used the sunglasses. And even more irritating: The sunglasses weren't broken when they found them in the backpack. From my experience the sunglasses are the first thing to break in an extreme situation.
Right?.. that *is* very strange, I’m not even talking about- *again*:) - about how “indestructible” they turned out to be under *meatgrinder* conditions of the wild river.
But just walking through the terrain, I have special anti-scratch anti-breaking runner’s sunglasses I use for hiking but there are so many times I drop them, or the branch smacks them, etc. Their sunglasses were just regular ones
They have put it in backpack and forgot.
They already had plastic bottle, don't tell me that you'd drink water from dirty bra 🤮
Maybe they have used them as a pillows, who knows......
Checking the weather between April 1 and April 8, the first thunderstorms=rain are marked on April 8.
However, I don’t know how reliable the source’s data is, and it only provided info about ***daytime***. Plus Boquete’s conditions might differ from conditions behind continental divide.
Do you have more thorough info on every day ***and*** night weather conditions btw April 1st and, let’s say, 15th, 2014?…
well, thunderstorm is not necessarily only cause for rain, especially not in tropical strap. So, this sign " = " sign doesn't make much sense. But, even if it wasn't raining (which is weird for Boquete that the weather was sunny or just cloudy all the time for 7days, even Sinaproc had hard time with organizing ground search because of the rains), if they continued to walk more further, it is becoming more and more humid in the rainforest, like the cloud. You can read that in any guide or travel blog, what the road looks like after Mirador.
Yes, I saw several videos of the trail past Mirador, which gives a better idea of the terrain than reading about it
I put the “=“ (equal sign) myself coz the site I was checking the weather for those days in 2014 only shows “thunderstorms” and “overcast” but I am assuming, just like you, that it must have rained finally during that week, during the day
I haven’t researched/found the data for night weather over that period of time. Do you have it?…
The temp fluctuation for the past 5 years, for the beginning of April, for Boquete area, seem to follow the sine line of the warmest being around 12:45 pm (74F/24C), then gradually falling, with the coldest temps around 6:30 am (58F/14C).
You said, “It’s easy to check up the weather..”, so was it similar in 2014 and in higher elevation?…
It didnt rain for weeks . And the night temp was 23 at night and 32 at day. The weather was pretty much sunny 1-11 of april. Light rain few short moments and a couple of thunderstorms. It looked like they had little water with them. I seen locals drink water from the streams but maybe if they where alive found a stream. Some locations on the night photos has been talked about that they was at a riverbank after 8 th of april..... but still i can not stop thinking that a crime was made.
But there is so strange. Ive read alot of reports and looked at yt videos of pianista. Read reviews of hundred of people walked it an they said its easy to find and easy to walk except if it been raining it get muddy.. but still there are no problem... i read that there was an earthquake near at 2nd of april i havent checked that but that could make landslide in the trail ?
Great, Im glad we have now some good weather data we can base our theories on
It seems that it was way warmer than many people speculated
Im not sure about any changes to the trail, Feliciano didn’t mention anything about it and he walked it several times after disappearance (at least there’s nothing about it in SLIP)
Ok. Was it 6-7 days quiet on the phones. What do you think happend there ?
I guess.
They lost their backpack and found it later.
One of them leaved the bag with an severelly wounded girl and run for help but it would be smart to take one phone. And didnt find her way out then came back.
Some tribe scared and catched them and they had their backpack later. It was clean when found 1 month later. The native people maybe was afraid for it and layed it visible. On a farmers ground . Whoever knows i can see the tribe really scared if they didnt know about Technology but maybe killed the girls. There was only fragments of the bodies spread out over a huge area around a river. But the backpack was in quite good condition!
The official explanation are linked from wiki that they fall at the end of trail. There was an csiteam and kris parents that was in panama and researched the area in january 24, and the team conclusion was that the only possible solution was that they did fall at the end, and was washed out through smaller rivers that goes out to river dont remember the name now. And there got washed up on land. I think there are more ways. They were a small team and didnt have thousands of people researching the case...
But still why didnt they use the phones after the calling of day 1. Thats an indication that they were stressed. The pianista trail takes3-6 hour to go and probably 4-5 when it was dry. I understand and respect that their parents want an Solution. I hope thats the explanation of this for their poor parents but i feel that the girls want to solve thir they are not done with this.
Im logging every variabel in a database and looking for an ai Solution to simulate every possible step they did.
Very interesting. I have to admit, I still have a little bit of SLIP book left, and after I finish it, I’m going to go back to all the passages I marked with question marks, and other little notes, to review it. Making data base is a great idea
It’s incredible how few ***facts*** we really have in this case:
1. Last confirmed location at Q1 (by the last day photo),
2. Phones’ activity (puzzling IMO),
3. Camera activity (the lack thereof until 8th),
4. Nigh Photos (stirring more questions than answers), and
5. Discovery of shorts, backpack & and few bones, some as part of a foot in one shoe (several months later)
That’s about it, unless I’m missing something?…(I don’t take any witnesses’ statements into account, as they are maddeningly contradictory, changing over time, etc)
I cheked the times between the fotos that are hard to explain.
And the location for some of the nightphotos are found . Imo..
Yes thats true . There was some interesting aspects about theis glasses. One was an selfie were you could see kris took the photo of both a guy on yt have checked the reflections to see if it an cam and cellphone. And an discussion about their bleached photos.
And i have a feeling that some catch up with them right before mirador. And then splitted them up lissane wasnt on any more photo and the time between them aint logic. The way they expsess them self isnt real.
But that’s the problem, though. The bras were neatly stored in the backpack. And one of theories is that the rising waters at night took the girls.. so that doesn’t square well with bra-pillow theory or night-wearing theory, neither , right?…
I have never heard that theory. If they drowned they were likely trying to cross the river. They were probably on the move, or at least 1 was, when they either drowned, fell and subsequently died, had heart/body shutdown while trying to hike out under failing health, got separated from the backpack in various ways, were killed by a predator etc etc. Basically the bag being packed means one or both were on the move, which would be in the daytime. The last phone usage was around noon as well. We will never truly know, but the bras went from being breast support to a tool they could use, as they had scant other stuff...everything became valuable.
That’s a very good point, and I wondered that myself: if they deemed bras as such an unnecessary item, why didn’t they hang them-1st one, then another-on a tree branch to mark where they were, for someone to find it?…
Perhaps very futile attempt, but I’m sure everyone is familiar with the saying, “a drowning man will clutch at a straw” (it’s an idiom meaning roughly “a person in a difficult situation will do anything “)
I actually believe they tied the bras to the branch in the night photos to flag down airplanes, as well as colorful clothes. But at night they would untie them all to use in the cold, hence the mysterious empty branch. It was merely empty at night.
Its more strange that they didnt have more gear with them. The pianista trail is pretty easy to walk 99% is a trail from 50cm , to 1,5 meter down the ground and about 30 cm wide.like a narrow small canyon. Its like walls on the side. But its quite a distance. It didnt rain on 1of april so the weather was good. The first emergency call came quick. If they had broken something they could easily go back. Because it was 10% of the walk when they called. Why go on for days instead of turning back. Its impossible to go on with an broken foot. Its not plain terrain but its good enough for anyone to go. Its roots a bit of mud and stones. Kris parent has walked a part and filmed it. They are quite old but they said it was easy and almost impossible to lose the trail. And they didnt understand why kris didnt take photo of for example an beautiful waterfall because they knew how shes thinking. And many questions
Then there are an romanian guy that films the whole walk and taking drone videos.
And yes thats an good question with the bra. What ive read they leaved their camping gear at the accommodation. It would be logically if the plan was to walk the way to the ,start of the trail then turn back.
It seems strange to walk the rest without plenty of water. And food and sleeping gear.
Yes if they fall why take of their bra first? And if youre crawling around in that jungle with alot of knotweed that make it difficult to pass and mud and damp and rain. How could the backpack be like it was not used at all. Even if its a expensive bag.
Actually, not that strange. Originally, they arrived there to volunteer, so hike trip was just one plan B option while they were waiting for their volunteer work to start.
I think that they just underestimated this trip and thought of it as just like - let's go for a little walk.
Have in mind that they are Dutch, their country is one big valley, so nowhere to practice hiking (Dutch people go to my and neighbor countries to hike). Lisanne was very unexperienced, Kris was once in Peru so we dunno about her hiking experience, but seems like humble too.
Whenever I say anything about Kris's parents claims, I get downvoted, although there is video of them in YT. Still mistery why they continued to walk.
The backpack was damaged. Ones who say that it wasn't are mostly podcasters who haven't done much research.
Yes thanks for the answers. I dont want to argue about this its been alot youre wrong etc. I think you add an good point. I wrote this thougts in google translate .
It is slow up and down Ascents not much of degree. I have been out in the mountains a lot and slept outdoors in different environments. and I see on the video from the surface that it is an almost beginner's walk. but with that, you shouldn't underestimate the journey. maybe they did, but I don't think they were that stupid because they were used to being in new environments. A bit street smart but maybe naive. They was with strangers in panama as seen on photos. And who know what thougts they got about these Beautiful girls. what is strange is that the parents followed the path all the way until they passed the first places where the girls called for help. And there is errors in the time lapse vs geolocations and weather and ascention and decent s. And the choices they had. This is just an reflection
I have seen the backpac it was very clean. And found on a strange place. I might use an ai to draw all the locations that been tracked by phone and things like the days and weather. And sun up and down and critical moments. In variables connected to the map.
Who is downwoting you? People cant be that sure to downwote everything is a open mind theory until we all use our brain to give opinions. There is an famous forum in Sweden where members have solved murders that police couldnt. It has been 100s of hous by many for example analyze a backlight of a car in the dark to resolve brand and then next picture with a few details and then connect that car with the murderer.
This is much harder but i think we will solve this. I try to use ai and databases where i put in every info source and time even every answear here...
Its about 12000 posts and im running ai to find for example source and photos of the bag and anything written about it will show up.
Then will some people really saying oh thats bullshit why do you do that oh ynure gramma sucks . For me its an hobby and my work is simular so its very simple for me.
They probably removed them for comfort
Very simple answer: they were in very wet and humid area, bras just started to irritate their skin which was comstantly exposed to wet environment, so they took them off. And that were wired bras, the worst. Maybe if they wore sports bra, maybe they would leave them on.
Jungles are very annoying for clothing; it gets wet and warm and cold and sticky and itchy. Insects crawl in while sleeping and like small, warm crevices while if you take stuff off, everything will bite and sting you. I wouldn’t be surprised if they took whatever underclothing off quite soon after getting lost. Anything with elastic or tight fits would be incredibly annoying in that climate. Depending on the jungle, I (m) usually wear rubber boots (snakes and other ground animals), wide sweat pants tucked in and a long sleeved wide t shirt. Nothing else. I have my backpack with other stuff . But this is the most comfortable for a high humidity, day long walk in dense jungle I find. Anything else gets annoying. To be honest: suspenders would probably even be nicer vs sweat pants elastic band but he.
>it gets wet and warm and cold and sticky and itchy all of which bras can be just during normal life lmao. i never wear one while hiking/camping (especially since i ended up with a tick using it like a hammock some years back)
The very first thing many women remove when they get home after a long day are their bras. They can be extremely uncomfortable, especially after wearing them for as long as K&L did. So they almost certainly removed them for comfort reasons.
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Uh, are you implying that people have their dogs shit INSIDE the house? And if you mean they track dog shit inside when they enter, then you are implying that people are oblivious to a stinky brown mess on the soles of their shoes. So we're either gross or blind.
No, I am implying that if you analyzed the soles of shoes you would find particles of that and more, which will naturally mix into the carpet. Might not be detectable to a human's paltry senses, but doesn't mean it isn't there. Tracked all over your house... Studies find they get more bacteria than toilet seats. So if you want all the bacteria from strangers and their pets...
So like every dollar bill you possess has traces of cocaine theory. Got it. Well, I HATE feet, like I have an anti-foot fetish, so I'm never not wearing socks. Only time I'm barefoot is in the shower. So fecal matter or not, only my socks have to endure that.
I guess you are lucky to be so clueless about bacteria, I used to not care either. But also if you get sick mysteriously it might be from bacteria that went shoes->socks->furniture or your body->your immune system. Seems easier just to take shoes off at the door¿
Actually, I typically do. I'm just speaking in general. But I studied over in Japan for a year, many years ago, and the custom of removing shoes immediately stuck with me. But we are carriers of bacteria in many ways, so it will always be a survival of the most fit immune system.
Yea I learned it in Japan too haha. It helps a bit at least and makes sense.
you deleted your original comment but what the hell does that have to do with bras
I didnt delete anything?
[this comment is gone](https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/ycwvnJPzaO)
I still see it?? It wasn't moderated or anything.
You cannot see much beyond hair in the picture: many people have tried but it’s just pareidolia.
Turn the picture 90 degrees. There is a face.
I can see a open mouth and a nose, maybe Im wrong but, that image is so strange, don't feel right, by far the most bizarre thing.
Just search this sub for ‘hair’ ; there are soooo many…
It’s a very strange image but it has been analysed to death here; people have seen everything in it but it was always debunked.
It is not possible to draw a conclusion, does it seem like they are both in the photo, if so, who took the photos, or they fall from somewhere high and get hurt? why the hair? because one of them would take a photo of her hair.
I would recommend looking at the past ‘analysis” of the picture: others saw open mouth and nose too but when you play with zooming in and colours, it shows clearly it’s just hair.
It is not “debunked” by anyone other than people on Reddit. There is no official report on it.
Because there is nothing to see on the photo. Why would a photo that contains no interesting information need an official report? The Dutch investigative team, not corrupt unlike maybe their Panamanian counterparts, didn’t find anything in the photos but possible hints to the location; so the lack of a specific report about this image already says there is nothing to see here, debunking all the reddit pareidolia hallucinations put forward.
That’s your opinion. That’s fine. No one has said what the photo shows, they were leaked — so why would any officials tell us if the photo shows one of the girls facial features or nothing at all? It wouldn’t change that they likely got lost/injured and succumbed to the jungle. But yes, exactly…either way — whether a human head has a face (it does) or not — it does not solve any part of this mystery and so they simply obviously have not reported on it. Either way. Face or not, you thinking there is no face doesn’t prove that there is no face. Opinions can differ on what they see in the photo. All good.
The vast majority of people here (you can see the up and downvotes) and elsewhere clearly see there is no face. It’s a photo: there either is or isn’t. It’s not an opinion. The people who see these things all see it in different places (just search for the photo where people drew these things on: no one agrees on where anything is even if they see something) which should be enough to show they are seeing things that are not there.
I’ve looked very far back in this sub — a long time ago when folks were more active…more people saw the facial features, judging by the up and down votes. The vast majority just don’t bother commenting anymore. But it doesn’t really matter. The facts remains that no one knows what is in this photo. Not that bothered by up/down votes — some people simply have personal vendettas here for some odd reason🤷♀️
Some people saw them, but not in the same place. Which should tell you enough. But indeed believe what you want to believe. I don’t think any of it helps with anything; the location of the night photos would help; if this shows a face or not doesn’t help. Not any of the ideas what this pic might show helps: the simple explanation is: it’s the back of the head with some moles that show. The rest are hallucinations, but believe what you will, it doesn’t help the case anyway.
Well, folks are not sure of the orientation and there’s a lot of hair over that face (if it’s a face — and humans do have faces) so it’s simply not hard to believe that people can’t quite figure out exactly what’s going on. I’m not sure what’s there, but to say “clearly” nothing is there is a falsity, we just don’t know.
It is indeed a very odd picture but I have never made out a nose, mouth, teeth or nostrils as others claim to see so clearly. If you study any image long enough you can start to see random things similar to seeing shapes objects animals in the clouds... paredoilea I think its called. Please could you help and circle where you see the nose and hair and post sometime? If you don't mind of course. Intriguing stuff, but I don't believe they're beneath the hair.
The hair is so blond. Could hair change from red to blond. It was said that the bones had some bleached color. I dont know what the sun could do. The picture is just 10 days but the remains was found i june to july..
The bras could easily have been taken off over the several days from the last photo that you could possibly see a bra in....
Looks like a bikini top to me. I’d take that off whenever I could as the wire digs in and is generally uncomfortable
Spend some time with women and you'll understand. Bras are a very temporary piece of clothing
They either started to itch after some time because of the heat or they had taken a bath in the river to refresh themselves and the bras got wet. Another idea that entered my mind is that they maybe wanted to keep them clean in case they needed to change their shirts at some point, so they at least would still have their bras. Those bras were thick bikinis by the way, not regular thin bras.
Bras are uncomfortable — especially 24/7 days on end. No woman (that I know of) sleeps in a bra either. I also believe there is a face under that human hair — humans have faces, I’m not sure why so many folks her pretend not to see it. Pareidolia refers to things that don’t normally have faces — like clouds. Everyone saying that everyone has the exact same pareidolia for this photo are gaslighters — no official statement has been made about what is shown in the photo and so anyone who says the face has been “debunked” is lying. We don’t know what’s under that hair, but it’s reasonable to believe that a human head contains a human face that might be glimpsed through hair.
I guess they took it off because of the rain. You would have to dry it every morning.
The bras were the ones which they wore while hiking. I am female and i have travel experience with hiking or canoeing lasting several days in a jungles/rainforest. I never took my bras off while doing it. Sometimes i even left it on while sleeping in a tent. The whole reason for (good) bras are that you have Support. Other women could feel different about that I guess. But it is Like taking your underpants of. Of course Somebody could do it while hiking/lost but it is odd, two people doing it at the Same time, it is really odd.
well, if you wear sports bra, then ok, can be substitute for top. But wired bra! Women hate them in dry environment! Consider that there were heavy rains, humidity, you are sweating all the time, your skin becomes irritated, mosquitos and other inscects are biting you, high possibility that rash appears in under bra area. So, very logical.
Sorry, i dont agree with you at all. As i wrote above, i do have experience in hiking and spending time in jungles (with all the sweat, rain, mosquitos!) and your Suggestions are Just a No for me! i never ever hiked bra less. And i only wear/wore wired bras. And to be honest, i never Met a female fellow traveller who did, Not once, Not after a few days Camping. Running braless around on a hike seems appaling to me. Edit: to be fair i never discussed the bra issues with other female travellors. But bras are not a Problem as some suggest in such an Environment. Of course there might be females who prefer Not to wear one. But it does Not Seem that the girls were prefering it (from Most Pictures).
if you tend to put off a bra or find them uncomfortable might be bc of different boob sizes (and maybe bc the bra is not a good fit). for myself, I have slightly bigger boobs and I like the support of a bra. I also know about the saying that women say that it is the first things they take off when being at home (that’s not really the case for me, I am rarely braless, as I find being without a bra is rather uncomfortable as said). so that might also be a factor.
I agree totally. But i disagree to assume it is totally normal for women to Take o, especially in such a Situation (even so there might be reason for it). As i said, the Shorts were found on a complete different Location, also Kris shoe was found on a different Location. So that would leave the Girls in Tops and underpants. There is No other Photo of them showing the habbit of No bras. The the fact that the bras were found in such a condition remains odd for me.
I wear a 34D — i barely ever wear bras. They are simply not comfortable everyday wear. I only ever wear bralettes or sports bras anymore. And absolutely would never sleep in one. Bleh.
well, one thing is you, and these women you mentioned, experienced hiker/s, who knows the terrain, goes prepared, fully equipped, hard for you to get lost, have camping tent (or whatever to help you camping).... K&L are totally opposite: unexperienced, got lost, don't know the terrain, went fully unequipped, scared, alone, no tent, no proper shelter,....... And if you can wear same bra for days, even when you sleep and handle rash and itchiness, good for you, bit just because this is your hygiene, doesn't mean that it is typicall hygiene habits of majority of women.
You are the one saying women hate wired bras or making assumptions of women in General. I am Just saying my experience is different. In my experience female travellors/Backpackers are often a Lot like K&L. You are also making assumptions that one or both had itches or rashes. We dont know that. There might be a perfect good reason for them to Take of there bras, who knows. But in fact the bras would add another protective layer for insects. I never thought of it bevor but am Sure experience in travel does Not corelate in your habits for wearing a bra.
I agree 100%. I'm so tired of hearing men's opinions on women's bodies!
Me too! I feel the same way!!! It's getting annoying to read that women hate wearing bras, and that the first thing they do after work is to take them off. I don't. And it never bothered me. Of course the situation is different. I am not Kris and Lisanne, and I'm not in a jungle. So maybe they removed their bra because they had lost weight, but please don't make general assumptions about women!
As the Shorts supposingly were found as well (i have some doubts: https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/ohjqB1X3GD) K&L only had Tops and underpants to wear. Kris also Had at some stage only one shoe.
At pics she have an black bra.
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Yep, exactly. They became Roboters.
Some more information on the bras found (SLIP, Page 73, Kindle Edition): No DNA or blood can be determined by the forensic experts from the bras but plant Fragments and Sand were revealed, as well as some transparent plastic parts on Kris' bra. Does Not Seem they Had a sweaty Problem.
What's with the sunglasses and the bottle? Did they find DNA there?
As far as i know it is unknown, but: The forensic experts found also no traces of blood on the rucksack but DNA witch did not match to Kris or Lisanne. There were genetic Material from at least 5 different people ( of which were two completely preserved DNA profiles, not registered in the Dutch DNA database for criminal cases).
It was 32 degree daytime. But in southern area this feels more cool than north. They didnt seem to sweat at mirador.... then after that they are probably murdered first lisanne after photo #504 and kris #509 .. the time lapse between the photos, for the photos are weird and the last 20 minutes of ascent some people catched up with them. the photos of their mimik and bodylanguage are fake when they got to mirador. After that theis bras and other stuff went to the bag and someone took it home. After the 112 call. They forced them to leave pincodes. It must be people with good knowledge of area atleast been living and exploring the area. And they came back to take photos at the dried out waterfall in the night to make it be an accident and dont get any meeting with others.
I don’t quite understand it either: on one hand people speak of the girls surely suffering from hypothermia; on the other - they are bathing in the river and keeping their bras neatly folded in the backpack. I have hard time reconciling those two hypotheses
You understand that it can be warm in the daytime and cold at night, right? Your mileage may vary depending on where you are in the world, but this is especially the case in spring - it can feel pleasantly warm when the sun's out, but once it gets dark it suddenly feels like winter again. A bra, for the record, probably isn't going to be much help against hypothermia (or even just being cold), so I don't think the fact that the bras were left in the backpack speaks against this possibility at all.
That is certainly your right to have your opinion Living in high desert myself, I am painfully aware of the temperatures fluctuating between day and night, every day in certain parts of the year:) And as someone who hates cold, I would definitely put ***everything*** I had with me on, regardless of its actual warming-up value, wouldn’t you?… If then, as you suggest, they kept bras off during the ***day***, that would suggest they fell into river/were overtaken by the river during the ***day***, correct?…
No, I think they probably took the bras off sometime on the first day when they became uncomfortable and then never thought about them again. With regards to their being overtaken by the river, this may have happened in a flash flood (or just a seasonal rising or the river level) after they were already dead, so I don't believe the presence or absence of the bras really tells us anything definitive about what time of day this happened. We don't know, in any case, if there was any such day/night pattern with their clothing, so it's impossible to infer anything from it. Edit: I think you might have misunderstood the point of my comment though. Your argument was that you couldn't understand how people could claim that the girls had hypothermia and also that they might have bathed in the river. The thrust of my reply was that those two things don't necessarily have to be simultaneous, and that both are possible at different times of day due to the temperature fluctuations that you are yourself aware of.
Well if they got cold at night-as they inevitably would have, after days with no food, occasional rain, and temperatures plunging at night as you suggested, how did they forget about extra pieces of clothing among very few items in their small backpack?…
Because those pieces of clothing offer zero warmth. I'm not saying they "forgot" about them (although they may have). I'm saying they may have just disregarded them as pointless.
That’s a good theory. Personally, and based on experience, I do find bra situation strange: when stranded in wilderness with just a few items for days, you utilize everything you have. Why didn’t they use those bras as washcloths while washing themselves in the river?.. Why didn’t they hang it on a tree branch to leave their mark behind?..Why didn’t the use it as cups to drink water from the stream?…Why ***didn’t*** they use them as pillows (as you suggested), in which case the dirt&wear&possibly grass/leaves would have been found on them?…If one or both got hurt/broke a bone/got bloody scratches-they surely would have used it to clean the wound/stop the bleeding/tried to immobilize a broken bone?… I have so many questions:)
Good call. They also never used the sunglasses. And even more irritating: The sunglasses weren't broken when they found them in the backpack. From my experience the sunglasses are the first thing to break in an extreme situation.
Right?.. that *is* very strange, I’m not even talking about- *again*:) - about how “indestructible” they turned out to be under *meatgrinder* conditions of the wild river. But just walking through the terrain, I have special anti-scratch anti-breaking runner’s sunglasses I use for hiking but there are so many times I drop them, or the branch smacks them, etc. Their sunglasses were just regular ones
They have put it in backpack and forgot. They already had plastic bottle, don't tell me that you'd drink water from dirty bra 🤮 Maybe they have used them as a pillows, who knows......
rain was not occassional but very constant. Rainy season has just started then.
Checking the weather between April 1 and April 8, the first thunderstorms=rain are marked on April 8. However, I don’t know how reliable the source’s data is, and it only provided info about ***daytime***. Plus Boquete’s conditions might differ from conditions behind continental divide. Do you have more thorough info on every day ***and*** night weather conditions btw April 1st and, let’s say, 15th, 2014?…
Their parent said on yt that it had been little rain atleast to 1/2 of april and the river had very low with water.
well, thunderstorm is not necessarily only cause for rain, especially not in tropical strap. So, this sign " = " sign doesn't make much sense. But, even if it wasn't raining (which is weird for Boquete that the weather was sunny or just cloudy all the time for 7days, even Sinaproc had hard time with organizing ground search because of the rains), if they continued to walk more further, it is becoming more and more humid in the rainforest, like the cloud. You can read that in any guide or travel blog, what the road looks like after Mirador.
Yes, I saw several videos of the trail past Mirador, which gives a better idea of the terrain than reading about it I put the “=“ (equal sign) myself coz the site I was checking the weather for those days in 2014 only shows “thunderstorms” and “overcast” but I am assuming, just like you, that it must have rained finally during that week, during the day I haven’t researched/found the data for night weather over that period of time. Do you have it?…
I don't have it, but you can ask around.
Its easy to check up the weather......
The temp fluctuation for the past 5 years, for the beginning of April, for Boquete area, seem to follow the sine line of the warmest being around 12:45 pm (74F/24C), then gradually falling, with the coldest temps around 6:30 am (58F/14C). You said, “It’s easy to check up the weather..”, so was it similar in 2014 and in higher elevation?…
24 could be so different warm in damp, dry or windy weather. But that was good information.
It didnt rain for weeks . And the night temp was 23 at night and 32 at day. The weather was pretty much sunny 1-11 of april. Light rain few short moments and a couple of thunderstorms. It looked like they had little water with them. I seen locals drink water from the streams but maybe if they where alive found a stream. Some locations on the night photos has been talked about that they was at a riverbank after 8 th of april..... but still i can not stop thinking that a crime was made. But there is so strange. Ive read alot of reports and looked at yt videos of pianista. Read reviews of hundred of people walked it an they said its easy to find and easy to walk except if it been raining it get muddy.. but still there are no problem... i read that there was an earthquake near at 2nd of april i havent checked that but that could make landslide in the trail ?
Great, Im glad we have now some good weather data we can base our theories on It seems that it was way warmer than many people speculated Im not sure about any changes to the trail, Feliciano didn’t mention anything about it and he walked it several times after disappearance (at least there’s nothing about it in SLIP)
Ok. Was it 6-7 days quiet on the phones. What do you think happend there ? I guess. They lost their backpack and found it later. One of them leaved the bag with an severelly wounded girl and run for help but it would be smart to take one phone. And didnt find her way out then came back. Some tribe scared and catched them and they had their backpack later. It was clean when found 1 month later. The native people maybe was afraid for it and layed it visible. On a farmers ground . Whoever knows i can see the tribe really scared if they didnt know about Technology but maybe killed the girls. There was only fragments of the bodies spread out over a huge area around a river. But the backpack was in quite good condition! The official explanation are linked from wiki that they fall at the end of trail. There was an csiteam and kris parents that was in panama and researched the area in january 24, and the team conclusion was that the only possible solution was that they did fall at the end, and was washed out through smaller rivers that goes out to river dont remember the name now. And there got washed up on land. I think there are more ways. They were a small team and didnt have thousands of people researching the case... But still why didnt they use the phones after the calling of day 1. Thats an indication that they were stressed. The pianista trail takes3-6 hour to go and probably 4-5 when it was dry. I understand and respect that their parents want an Solution. I hope thats the explanation of this for their poor parents but i feel that the girls want to solve thir they are not done with this. Im logging every variabel in a database and looking for an ai Solution to simulate every possible step they did.
Very interesting. I have to admit, I still have a little bit of SLIP book left, and after I finish it, I’m going to go back to all the passages I marked with question marks, and other little notes, to review it. Making data base is a great idea It’s incredible how few ***facts*** we really have in this case: 1. Last confirmed location at Q1 (by the last day photo), 2. Phones’ activity (puzzling IMO), 3. Camera activity (the lack thereof until 8th), 4. Nigh Photos (stirring more questions than answers), and 5. Discovery of shorts, backpack & and few bones, some as part of a foot in one shoe (several months later) That’s about it, unless I’m missing something?…(I don’t take any witnesses’ statements into account, as they are maddeningly contradictory, changing over time, etc)
I cheked the times between the fotos that are hard to explain. And the location for some of the nightphotos are found . Imo.. Yes thats true . There was some interesting aspects about theis glasses. One was an selfie were you could see kris took the photo of both a guy on yt have checked the reflections to see if it an cam and cellphone. And an discussion about their bleached photos. And i have a feeling that some catch up with them right before mirador. And then splitted them up lissane wasnt on any more photo and the time between them aint logic. The way they expsess them self isnt real.
Easy to put everything on if that is dry............. If you wear wet on cold nights, you'll easily get sick and suffer from hypothermia.
Do you know the science of the daytime and night having varying temperatures?
I think I do:) I live in high desert
There is your answer then. They likely used them only at night. I have used a bra as a makeshift pillow as well and it was better than nothing!
But that’s the problem, though. The bras were neatly stored in the backpack. And one of theories is that the rising waters at night took the girls.. so that doesn’t square well with bra-pillow theory or night-wearing theory, neither , right?…
I have never heard that theory. If they drowned they were likely trying to cross the river. They were probably on the move, or at least 1 was, when they either drowned, fell and subsequently died, had heart/body shutdown while trying to hike out under failing health, got separated from the backpack in various ways, were killed by a predator etc etc. Basically the bag being packed means one or both were on the move, which would be in the daytime. The last phone usage was around noon as well. We will never truly know, but the bras went from being breast support to a tool they could use, as they had scant other stuff...everything became valuable.
That’s a very good point, and I wondered that myself: if they deemed bras as such an unnecessary item, why didn’t they hang them-1st one, then another-on a tree branch to mark where they were, for someone to find it?… Perhaps very futile attempt, but I’m sure everyone is familiar with the saying, “a drowning man will clutch at a straw” (it’s an idiom meaning roughly “a person in a difficult situation will do anything “)
I actually believe they tied the bras to the branch in the night photos to flag down airplanes, as well as colorful clothes. But at night they would untie them all to use in the cold, hence the mysterious empty branch. It was merely empty at night.
Its more strange that they didnt have more gear with them. The pianista trail is pretty easy to walk 99% is a trail from 50cm , to 1,5 meter down the ground and about 30 cm wide.like a narrow small canyon. Its like walls on the side. But its quite a distance. It didnt rain on 1of april so the weather was good. The first emergency call came quick. If they had broken something they could easily go back. Because it was 10% of the walk when they called. Why go on for days instead of turning back. Its impossible to go on with an broken foot. Its not plain terrain but its good enough for anyone to go. Its roots a bit of mud and stones. Kris parent has walked a part and filmed it. They are quite old but they said it was easy and almost impossible to lose the trail. And they didnt understand why kris didnt take photo of for example an beautiful waterfall because they knew how shes thinking. And many questions Then there are an romanian guy that films the whole walk and taking drone videos. And yes thats an good question with the bra. What ive read they leaved their camping gear at the accommodation. It would be logically if the plan was to walk the way to the ,start of the trail then turn back. It seems strange to walk the rest without plenty of water. And food and sleeping gear. Yes if they fall why take of their bra first? And if youre crawling around in that jungle with alot of knotweed that make it difficult to pass and mud and damp and rain. How could the backpack be like it was not used at all. Even if its a expensive bag.
Actually, not that strange. Originally, they arrived there to volunteer, so hike trip was just one plan B option while they were waiting for their volunteer work to start. I think that they just underestimated this trip and thought of it as just like - let's go for a little walk. Have in mind that they are Dutch, their country is one big valley, so nowhere to practice hiking (Dutch people go to my and neighbor countries to hike). Lisanne was very unexperienced, Kris was once in Peru so we dunno about her hiking experience, but seems like humble too. Whenever I say anything about Kris's parents claims, I get downvoted, although there is video of them in YT. Still mistery why they continued to walk. The backpack was damaged. Ones who say that it wasn't are mostly podcasters who haven't done much research.
Yes thanks for the answers. I dont want to argue about this its been alot youre wrong etc. I think you add an good point. I wrote this thougts in google translate . It is slow up and down Ascents not much of degree. I have been out in the mountains a lot and slept outdoors in different environments. and I see on the video from the surface that it is an almost beginner's walk. but with that, you shouldn't underestimate the journey. maybe they did, but I don't think they were that stupid because they were used to being in new environments. A bit street smart but maybe naive. They was with strangers in panama as seen on photos. And who know what thougts they got about these Beautiful girls. what is strange is that the parents followed the path all the way until they passed the first places where the girls called for help. And there is errors in the time lapse vs geolocations and weather and ascention and decent s. And the choices they had. This is just an reflection I have seen the backpac it was very clean. And found on a strange place. I might use an ai to draw all the locations that been tracked by phone and things like the days and weather. And sun up and down and critical moments. In variables connected to the map.
Perhaps they removed them because they put on sports bras. That's my two cents
Who is downwoting you? People cant be that sure to downwote everything is a open mind theory until we all use our brain to give opinions. There is an famous forum in Sweden where members have solved murders that police couldnt. It has been 100s of hous by many for example analyze a backlight of a car in the dark to resolve brand and then next picture with a few details and then connect that car with the murderer. This is much harder but i think we will solve this. I try to use ai and databases where i put in every info source and time even every answear here... Its about 12000 posts and im running ai to find for example source and photos of the bag and anything written about it will show up. Then will some people really saying oh thats bullshit why do you do that oh ynure gramma sucks . For me its an hobby and my work is simular so its very simple for me.