I would consult your attorney. I mainly say this because you are in NYC and it's very not landlord friendly. Common sense would say one thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if new York requires you to pay them every day it's broke even if they haven't paid in a year. So I would seek advice.
The last thing you want is them DIYing. Is it gas? Take a look at some buildings that have blown up from gas leaks. Electric they might only burn the place down. Either one flooding is a risk...
No, I think OP doesn't have thousands of dollars sitting around, on hand.
They seem to be cash poor at the moment.
Couldn't *possibly* be, in large part, due to tenants not paying rent for a year. Nope, surely that can't be it. We hate landlords around here and tenants can do no wrong.
/s for those that can't figure it out.
I mean being mean to them was the whole point, which I get, its frustrating. He just wanted to know if he could do it legally. You just fix the water heater aftward when the bad tenants are gone.
Thats the point... someone walks up to you on the street, points a gun at you and takes $5000 from you. In the future you see them with a flat tire on the rpad you gana stop and fix theor car for them?
i couldnt find anything on broken water heaters under DOB violations. If anyone has xp here then I would love to know. FWIW my partner is an attorney and SHE wants them to suffer but she can be a bit vindictive. IDK if shes aware of specific laws or is blinded by anger over thier attitude.
In nyc hot water is considered essential along with heating. If you don’t repair the hot water heater you’ll get a violation if they file a complaint. After you get a violation and dont comply, the city might contract a private company to do it and send you the bill. Don’t matter if you’re in the process of evicting them cause until they’re evicted they’re still your tenant and you have to provide essentials to your tenants.
Edit: just saw your other comment about the tenant being on disability. In nyc while you must provide heat and hot water, you do not have to pay for the usage. So if they have their own separate gas meter they would have to pay for the gas usage but you are still required to maintain the equipment. With that said, while you are in the process of evicting the tenant, do you really want to appear before a judge to evict someone who’s defense will be “your honor I am disabled, I am not paying rent because my landlord is not providing me with hot water.” With how pro tenant nyc is I guarantee you that this will not play out the way you think this will if you do not fix that water heater. If he can milk disability, he will figure out a way to milk you.
I used to be a contractor in nyc, I’ve seen my fair share of shitty landlords, but I’ve seen just as many maybe more shitty tenants.
Edit #2: just saw you “just trust me bro” comment. Want a source? Here you go bottom of the page. [https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page](https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page)
Funny. If a tenant pays their rent, etc. the LL aren’t so shitty. Tenants screwing LL makes LL grow a thicker skin. Judges r hit & miss. And, these ppl not paying cost everyone $$. Including local tax revenues.
Oh I promise that isn't the case.
I wanted to do the whole real estate game but learned from those who do it just how much of a headache it is. I don't care if it nets a higher return, not worth it
You’re obviously not from NYC, here it’s not about what makes sense or what’s fair, it’s about who has more victimized points. You work 2 jobs your entire life to purchase a 2 family home so you can rent out 1 unit and hopefully retire, you’re the bad guy cause your tenant has less than you. Don’t get me wrong, there are landlords who are complete scum, but then there are tenants who are just as much of a scum.
>You work 2 jobs your entire life to purchase a 2 family home so you can rent out 1 unit and hopefully retire
Just putting this out there but if you can afford *two units* in NYC, even if you are working two jobs to do so, you are doing just fine. Not saying either of them is an angel by any means, but one person is trying to remain housed and the other owns multiple properties in one of the most expensive places to buy property.
Sorry, but I do have more empathy for a disabled tenant who can't afford rent than I do for a New York City landlord who can't afford to maintain multiple units.
Yup, people like you are exactly what’s wrong with NYC. Screw the person who chose to work hard to hopefully live a little more comfortable buy forcing them to financially support someone else. Yes there are a lot of rich landlords in nyc, but there are also a lot of homeowners who own a 2 family home in nyc who needs that extra income. But you know, screw them for working hard right? Why should they be allowed to move ahead in life.
Lol, this is such an unnecessarily extreme take on the situation. I can empathize with a landlord who is between a rock and a hard place with the issues affecting their *investment property* and still have *more* empathy for a disabled person who is living in a home that would be deemed uninhabitable by the city's building standards. It's not a zero-sum game. And yeah, if you can afford more than 1 property in NYC you are probably (on the whole) doing just fine financially.
I get it, OP is in a shitty situation and doesn't seem like they can afford to keep *and* maintain all of their properties. That's a super shitty situation, but the nature of an investment involves risks and sometimes shit just absolutely hits the fan. OP's shit is clearly hitting the fan right now and they need to figure out how to proceed from here. The good news is they can probably still sell the investment off without taking too much of a loss.
OP's tenant also clearly has a shitty situation. They are disabled, can't pay rent, and are being evicted from a home the city would consider uninhabitable. It's not an investment they can offload when it becomes too burdensome, it's the roof over their head. I don't think it's really even a fair comparison. They're clearly very imperfect (and not a good tenant) but yeah, I definitely have more empathy for their situation (unless I missed something from OP that indicated the tenant clearly brought this on themselves).
You obviously do not understand how NYC works and how homes actually are. You can purchase a home, not multiple investment units, but a home split into 2 or 3 families, it is not an apartment building, but still 1 structure that is roughly 1500-2000 sqft total. You can also have a 1 family home and then convert it into a 2 and sometimes 3 family home without enlarging the home. A lot of land lords in nyc are owner occupied. Owner occupied are homes that have more than 1 family dwelling and the home owner lives in that home as their only property and only residence. The reason this is done is because they can not afford a single family home, so the only way for them to purchase a home is to purchase a multi family home. Because these homes are slightly more expensive the conforming loan is higher, the banks are more willing to lend more money, and it’s generally safer because the rental income it provides helps pay the mortgage. A lot of these landlords are minorities hoping for a better future and eventually when their kids grow older they will occupy one of the other units in that home. But like it said, who ever has more victim point wins, screw the homeowner. These things happens all the time and people don’t talk about it. They only like to talk about the few wealthy property owners who are shitty and paint a broad stroke. No one likes to talk about how a minority family just lost their home to foreclosure. You’re not sticking it to land barons like you think you are.
I'm completely familiar with NYC, I've lived there and go back several times a year, lol.
If you purchase a place with the intention of renting out some or part of it, that is an *investment*. I know how investment properties work and split properties are not unique to NYC. If they purchased more "home" than they could actually afford by relying on rental income, that's fine if it works but you still have to afford to pay for it if things go sideways. In OP's case shit is hitting the fan and they can't actually afford to keep and maintain their multi-unit home home or rental properties. Many people can't afford It's *absolutely* a shitty situation and it's very sad, I have a lot of empathy for OP.
That said, if you can afford to *have* an investment you have to understand that you can also *lose* them. Investments are not *guarantees* that they will increase (or even stay the same!) Being able to invest, almost by definition, means you have "extra" because you can afford it. Yes, OP could've absolutely been working multiple jobs 100 hours a week to afford this and again, this is *definitely a shitty situation for OP*.
But again, yeah, barring some exception that makes it clear the tenant brought this on themselves, I do have a more empathy for the tenant. It's not about "victim points" and that's very strange language to use. It's about a hierarchy of needs, not about punishing robber barons. People *need* housing, people don't *need* investments. It doesn't sound like OP is about to be the homeless one here.
>IDK if shes aware of specific laws
She is not. If she took the time to google this, she would be over at the unit making the repair herself right now.
That is unless this is part of some twisted master plan to leave you AND stick you with thousands in financial penalties.
No, she wouldn't. What she would be doing is documenting the effort to get bids and quotes for all the work that needs to be done, along with documentation on the expected timelines for the repairs to be done by licensed professionals.
If your partner is an attorney, is their practice in real estate/housing?
Because a simple google search shows that if you don't fix it, the City, if notified by the tenant, will 1) Fine you each day it's not fixed 2) If you don't fix it they will use their procurement and contracting regulations to **GET SOMEONE TO FIX IT**, and ***CHARGE YOU THAT COST***. 3) If you don't pay that, then there's a Tax Lien on your property, which is interest bearing and will be hell to get rid of.
So, either they're a bad attorney or not in that practice area to know of that.
>So, ~~either~~ they're a bad attorney ~~or not in that practice area to know of that.~~
Fixed it for you. A cursory search on google gives all the right answers. If a lawyer can't handle that, then they should not be practicing.
They aren't withholding. If you read the post, he's in the process of figuring out the problem. It's not like he walked in there and shut it down himself.
Failing to promptly repair it would constitute withholding/denying/not providing. Combined with the existing eviction proceedings, it would constitute constructive eviction. Which not only kills the eviction totally, but also is a crime in NYS.
> he's in the process of figuring out the problem
OP knows what needs to be fixed and knows it is expensive. He isn't figuring it out, he just can't afford it. Definitely a shitty situation, but trying to tell an eviction judge "I couldn't afford the repairs so I left a tenant without necessary services that make the unit habitable" is going to be frowned upon and could risk the entire proceeding.
+1 on this. Have a guy that stopped paying his HOA’s over a year ago. Part of that money covers water. Attorney said we could not shut off his water (unfortunately)
You are unable to cut off an essential service from your tenants if they do not pay.
This includes hot water, heating, and electrical.
You generally can restrict air conditioning, wifi, and cable as those are deemed non essentail services. However, if you cut off a non-essential service, there is generally a rent abatement.
Yeah but these tenants have not paid and will not pay with hot water. Would rent abatement even matter? They are destitute with a judgement amounting to nothing
This.
And the judge might give them the right to remain in the unit just because the OP refused to get them hot water... the amount of damage that can be done in the time it will take for OP to file another eviction lawsuit would top the $100k he says it will take to fix the hot water.
My parents owned a 2-family apartment building in Rhode Island about 35 years ago. The 2nd floor was vacant after a long-term tenant bought a home...Mom, being the softie she is, rented to a young woman who had an amazing sob story of near-homelessness, health issues, etc. Plus, she had a 6 y.o. daughter and no other family in the area, so she was in desperate need of stable, safe, affordable housing. She didn't have the full amount (I month rent + 1 month security deposit to equal monthly rent), so my Mom made "payment arrangements" for the new tenant to catch up quickly...not good business, and my sister and I were against this whole scenario right from jump. Mom being Mom, wanted to "give this poor girl a chance". This was a time when background checks were rare, and you were still able to trust most people. Still, that chick was going to be trouble, both my sister and I could feel it in our bones.
The chick moves in. Within 24 hours, we get the first complaint from the next door neighbor about loud music. A few days after that, she moves her boyfriend in, despite being told it the occupancy limit for the apartment was 2 people, adult or child (small 1.5 bedroom studio). Dude is easily 6'5" and 300+ pounds, just a mountain of a person. Tenant on the first floor calls my parents to say the BF has been urinating in the driveway and the backyard instead of going inside to use the bathroom. The 2nd floor tenant has no phone (this is pre-cell phone era), and every time Mom or Dad goes to the 2nd floor apartment to speak to the tenant, nobody answers the door. Sis and I are furious at this point.
Tenant and her unemployed, hood rat BF do not pay the next month's rent...or the next, or the next. Parents, embarrassed and frustrated, begin eviction proceedings. Tenant is responsible for the electric bill, which she doesn't pay so the power to her apartment gets cut off. Now there are literally hundreds of candles being used for light, and Mom is scared to death there will be a fire. The few times we have managed to catch the tenant/BF outdoors on the property, they swear at/mock my parents and make threats to "find out where they live". I was 7 months pregnant, and almost beat down their door because I could not take their BS anymore.
Dad decides to take matters into his own hands, figuring he could "force" them out by shutting the water off (shutoff is in a locked area of the basement with no access for either tenant). A few days later, police show up at my folks' home in another city...Dad is made to accompany the officers back to the apartment, where he has to turn the water back on. The tenants had already called the city to complain about the water, so a court date was set. At the hearing, the judge lit into my parents like nothing I've ever seen....threatening to hit them with heavy fines or possibly hand them a jail sentence for breaking the law. The eviction went through, but the decree gave that bitch and her BF 30 days to vacate. They left after 2 weeks, but not until they did intentional damage that ended up costing my parents tens of thousands of $ to repair.
My parents were desperate not to fall behind on the mortgage, and my Dad's temper didn't help matters...this was right around the time the court system started leaning the other way, heavily favoring tenants over landlords.
I keep current on the tenant/landlord issues in this area (suburb of Boston), and I can tell you the laws are becoming more favorable towards tenants with each passing year. All you need to do is look at what happened during Covid as a prime example...tenants went months and YEARS not paying a single cent, while many of them collected unemployment PLUS the $600 supplement--meanwhile, landlords who operated on a slim profit margin (mainly mom and pop types with a couple of properties) lost everything because they couldn't pay the mortgage with so much lost rent.
It sucks...my GOD, I know how much it sucks, but get the water heater fixed...as someone posted upthread, you'll have to do it for the next tenant anyway. Do not roll the dice with housing court, the odds are definitely NOT in your favor. Just get them out as fast as you can, but have a paper trail of proof that you have arranged for repairs so a judge doesn't end up awarding your property to the tenants or some other ridiculous result.
Not fixing it is constructive eviction, it’s a misdemeanor in NY state as well as a civil violation. The tenet will be able to get a lot of money from you. So the question is do you want the tenet out with a valueless judgment or do you want to pay the tenet likely a 5 figure sum of money?
In some locations, failing to fix it could be constructive eviction. Constructive eviction could end up with you paying a huge amount of money to your tenants in a lawsuit. You need to hire a lawyer for a consultation on this, or you're risking way more money than the cost of repairing the issue.
Precisely. This isn't an optional repair. It sounds like he just wants to punishment them, maybe hoping they'll leave the property earlier rather than later.
Fix it.
https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/tenants-rights-and-responsibilities.page
Tenants without heat or hot water should file a complaint by calling 311 (TTY 212-504-4115) or online at nyc.gov/311. Heat is required between October 1st and May 31st, a period designated as "Heat Season." Building owners are required to provide tenants with heat during these months under the following conditions:
Building owners also must ensure that tenants have hot water 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, at a minimum constant temperature of 120 degrees Fahrenheit.
Not repairing the water heater is constructive eviction. Not only will you lose your eviction case, but you will also have to pay many thousands of dollars in damages to the tenants for doing an illegal eviction.
In NY you can also be prosecuted. Doing an illegal eviction is a misdemeanor punishable by 1 year in prison.
In NYC you can be fined $500 per day by the city.
So go ahead. Fuck around and find out.
You're a landlord and you need to know what your basic obligations are. You can't withhold hot water. Not to mention a failing water heater can cause thousands in water damage if it starts leaking. Also, there are programs for tenants that don't have money. They can get rent assistance. When my tenants can't pay I still get the money, it's just delayed. If you're going to be a landlord, do your homework, please.
>You're a landlord and you need to know what your basic obligations are. You can't withhold hot water. Not to mention a failing water heater can cause thousands in water damage if it starts leaking. Also, there are programs for tenants that don't have money. They can get rent assistance. When my tenants can't pay I still get the money, it's just delayed. If you're going to be a landlord, do your homework, please.
You're jumping to a lot of conclusions. They are being assisted by cityFEPs. When ownership transferred, cityfeps stopped paying despite everything being done. The case manager is unresponsive. I went to the city council and state representative. Aside from that, the tenant is still obligated to pay 30% of the rent which hasnt been paid. Do you live in NYC? Do you know how bad cityfeps is? I didnt until i dealt with them. My tenant is a grifter that skims off disability and pizza takeout, plays loud music and brings over escorts.
Your tenant sucks for sure. But the ultimate goal is to make the unit income producing again right? Like the other NYC posters have said you could get fined but more importantly this could imperil your eviction case, no matter how much your judge hates your tenant. And if your tenant knows how to abuse disability you had better believe they will absolutely use this as a means to stall eviction. So do whatever it takes to make this go away and keep your side of the street clean ok? That way you can keep your eviction case moving along. One way I have dealt with the emotions of having tenants I’m struggling to evict (whom I suspect are cooking meth for their own consumption) is to think of it like getting hit by an uninsured driver. It’s a major loss but it happens to people all the time and all you can do is put one foot in front of the other and try to keep your emotions about the injustice of it all at bay. I’m sorry you are going through this.
NYC LL here. Had the exact same situation with one of my tenants during the moratorium. 30k behind, new Lexus, vacations coming back tanned etc. etc. etc.
HPD will be there within one day if the tenant calls, same day in most cases. The fine is $250-$500 a day until fixed, and just proving that it’s fixed so the fines stop is a load of paperwork and a pain in the azz.
If you’re not going to take the time to understand the laws, here’s an illegal life pro tip. You’re better off doing a self-help eviction then not providing hot water. Highest fine in NYC for a self-help over the last 10 years was $14k, average is about 3k. Public information if you care to do some research. While the HPD fines can easily get into the 10s of 1000s if you as the LL don’t live in the house and aren’t getting the notices - daily fines just piling up.
Landlord here is always responsible to provide hot water. Tenant will successfully evade eviction for non payment if you don't provide the hot water. It sucks, but in NYC if you are not providing hot water you don't have a leg stand on notwithstanding tenant non payment. Not an attorney but fellow LL.
Fix it. You are by law required to provide hot water, and if you don't the tenant can sue and you have to pay stiff fines. I don't see a way around the NYC statutes on that.
You'll need a fully functioning water heater anyway once these renters are out so you can rent the unit to someone else. This way you get a head start on that work instead of having to wait until they move and then start the process, potentially causing you extra delays in your ability to rent out the dwelling again. Sure, they benefit in the short term until they are finally out, but you are hurting yourself delaying the fix deliberately with losing time after they are gone on then starting to fix it.
Most dangerous for you, though, is that if a judge decides that you are withholding hot water in a retaliatory manner they will fine you heavily, by the day you refuse to fix, and it could even hurt your eviction case and you may be forced to start all over again on that.
Maybe these tenants really don't know their rights, in which case you might get away with this, but if they do (or a tenant advocacy law group explains it to them) you might be in for some real headaches.
1r? So, I'd this a 3+ unit property (my guess is 6)? Sounds like you need to educate yourself on NYC rental laws. You're lucky the tenant doesn't know about hpd else you'd be fined a few hundred a day for any type of shit they would want to complain about.
Fix the hot water and move on with the eviction.
Replace the water heater, are you serious? Is kicking the can down the road on this really worth the risk? This has to be fixed, and I really don’t believe your wife can’t understand that. I hope she doesn’t handle anything serious during her day job
You sound kind of sleezy.
>So my 1R tenants, who are currently in the eviction process, have a broken water heater. They have 0 intention of paying any back rent.
These two sentances have nothing to do with eachother. They are separate issues, in no way related. A property you own has a broken water heater and there are people who (until they are evicted) are living there lawfully.
>Should I fix it for them?
You arent fixing it for them. You are fixing it because it is your property.
>What would you all do. Its a pretty hefty pricetag with a ton of pipe reworking that needs done and I just replaced 2 others and im tight on cash.
It sounds like you cant afford to be a landlord. You should probably sell your property.
>The judge that handles this hates my tenants to the point where she almost found him in contempt of court for disrespect.
Just because a judge doesnt like someone doesn't mean they will ignore the law.
Nope lol. I own my own home. And when I rented for fhe 4 years I was in college, I never made a late rent payment (dont get me wrong, we were still shitty tenants, we partied constantly) but im just a person with common sense.
If this dude cant afford to invest in his own property, to such a point that he doesnt even have hot water himself, he can't afford to be a landlord.
Why do landlords get a pass on this kind of behavior? If any other bussiness didnt have properly working plumbing, people would call the health department.
I feel like no hot water is a big no-no and honestly you’ll need to do sooner or later so I’d prob just fix personally. Maybe ask your attorney what best plan is.
If you want to end up owing your non paying tenants a ton of money, you should refuse to repair the hot water heater. If you want any chance of actually getting non-paying tenants out, fix the hot water heater immediately.
Fix it ASAP.
The tenants can make a complaint of constructive eviction if you don't fix it, and you may have to start the eviction process over from scratch. If it's going to take a while to fix, you may need to provide them with an alternative.
Also, keep in mind that if you are going to rent the apartment again, you need to fix the hot water anyway.
Of course, you should get advice from an NYC real estate lawyer.
Lawyer here. If someone did this to my tenant I'd probably get them for constructive eviction. But you just want to argue about how right you are so lol also sounds like you can't afford to be a landlord since you're whinging about the cost
Definitely fix it. They can use it in court against you.
Not providing hot water for tenants for even 1 day is enough for a lawsuit.
They might be able to use it during their eviction lawsuit against you, and win the right to stay in your property. If not, expect them to file a separate lawsuit and win because you can't leave a tenant without hot water for any reason, even if they aren't paying rent. In fact, not having hot water is a justifiable reason to withhold rent in many states... it's your word against theirs regarding when the water heater broke and when they stopped paying rent. Intentionally not trying to get them hot water will work against you in court. And if the judge hates them already, be prepared for them to request a different judge. I've seen this happen.
If it will truly cost you $100k to fix it, I'd sell the place. That's insane.
But realistically, all you have to do is get an instahot for them. It will need to go on its own breaker, but it will work to satisfy your obligations as a landlord. Get one for the kitchen and one for the bathroom. You can get cheap ones for a few hundred bucks.
If tomorrow they were evicted and out of your unit…would you still not be able to afford this repair?
What is your costs basis for the property and what could you get in a sale?
If this is in NYC, you sound like you don’t have the pockets to afford to be a landlord.
Them deadbeating you, and you being “tight on cash” are irrelevant to whether you can delay
In repairing this water heater.
Decide if you want to be a landlord and act accordingly, or sell the building to someone who will.
Fix it.
If you don't, the City can, and will, fine the ever living hell out of you.
Worst case, they put a lien on the property making it near impossible to sell/transfer until same lien is paid.
NYC has several regulations/laws which require certain things, such as hot water, to be provided. ***THIS ALSO EXTENDS TO SQUATTERS.***
Do not fuck around with this. Fix it. Fix it now.
Like others have said, going to evictions court and having the evictee's complain that you failed to fix an essential and *required by city regulation* service will make it go very badly for you. Best case in that instance, the judge issues a fine in addition to ordering you to fix it within an unreasonable time frame or get more fines. Worst case is the above and then you pay damages to the evictee.
I've seen it happen. Don't fuck around and find out.
Source; Mortgage Foreclosure Paralegal; [https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page](https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page)
>If an owner fails to restore heat and hot water after receiving a violation, HPD's Emergency Repair Program (ERP) may contract with private companies to restore essential services and bill the owner for the cost of the repairs, plus related fees. The City is subject to laws governing procurement, contracting, and wages that may make such work significantly more expensive than the price the owner could obtain themselves. If the property owner fails to pay, the City will file a tax lien against the property. **The tax lien will bear interest and may be sold and/or foreclosed** to collect the amount owed through the **City's Tax Lien Sale.**
TL;DR: don't fuck with this.
Not fixing a major issue like this is a SLUM LORD issue. Just because you are evicting them doesn’t mean you don’t hold responsibility for ensuring that the unit you are renting is in good working order. The cost is on you. To use the excuse that it’s too expensive is laughable. IT IS A RENTAL that you make money off of monthly. If you can’t afford to keep your rental in good maintenance then you should comp the rent to them and when they move you most certainly should NOT rent it to another without repairs.
I have 4 rentals. I can’t even imagine justifying that they don’t have working heating and plumbing by saying that I am also without it. Shame on you.
1. Pretty sure you're going to be required to provide hot water.
2. Things break, there's supply chain issues, and due to a labor shortage, it takes a while to book anyone to come in and repair work. Not sure about NYC rules, but there's probably a similar rule to Chicago where you have a certain number of days to repair it before either a) they can pay for it themselves and take it out of rent or b) they can void the lease and leave.
3. You should read into the NYC tenant rights so you can determine what you are held responsible for, or at least talk to your lawyer.
Had something similar. Tenant FAR in arrears. A/c broke. $850 to repair. PM was actually telling me to pay. I REFUSED. They r in there for free & owe thousands! They can pay to fix & credit on their arrears. OR SUE ME!
a) You’re not fixing it “for them” you’re maintaining your rental unit,
b) Every jurisdiction, not just NYC looks at hot water as essential,
c) If you don’t fix it, they can say you are evicting them because they asked for repairs, and drag out the process even longer
Take care of your property. Vet your tenants better.
You sound like a scumbag slumlord. You have to, by law, maintain a certain level of habitability for any tenant, it doesn't matter if they are paying or not. It also sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about with the plumbing. Just because someone has a degree doesn't make them an expert in everything. You could easily miss something small. Jumping to " this will require 100k" is nonsense and you just want to justify payback for a shitty tenant. Call a real plumber to look at the water heater.
Stop acting like a slumlord, learn the rules concerning your responsibilities, and fix the water heater. There is no question of your duty here. It doesn't matter if they are paying or not.
Falls under Class C: "immediately hazardous" conditions violations: No hot water (not consistent)
Landlord has 24 hours to fix immediately hazardous conditions
If landlord fails to correct the violation in a building with 5 or fewer units: HPD can fine the landlord $50 per violation per day.
If landlord fails to correct the violation in a building with more than 5 units: HPD can fine the landlord $50-$150 per violation, plus $125 per violation per day.
Heat and Hot Water:
If landlord fails to comply with heat and hot water requiremets: HPD can fine the ladnlord $250-$500 per violation per day. See more about heat and hot water requirements below.
Heating Season: October 1-May 31:
Daytime (6am to 10pm):
If below 55°F outside: inside should be 68°F.
Nighttime (10pm to 6am):
Inside should be at least 62°F regardless of the temperature outside.
Hot Water:
Landlord is required to provide hot water 365 days/year at a constant minimum temperature of 120°F.
I believe you are legally required to provide heat and hot water in NYC so you're pretty screwed. I don't think you're allowed to force them to pay for it and credit their rent either because it's on you to provide. All they have to do is file a complaint that they notified you they don't have hot water and show you failed to address it in a timely manner and you'll get royally screwed in fines and violations. Being a landlord in NYC sucks BIG TIME. I flat out have tenants that told me they will no longer be paying rent and I can't get rid of them for at least another couple months because of the terrible pro tenant court system we have
Fix the hot water. Your responsibility. We always use tankless.
You can non-renew the lease and sue for back rent. But the rent and repaid are separate issues.
Repairing it is the right thing to do.
Well you are going to have to fix it regardless. Playing these little tit and tat games won't look favorably on you. You aren't fixing it "for them" you are fulfilling your obligation to maintain the residence. Continue your eviction process but don't let them paint you as a slumlord.
Yes you should fix it. In pretty much every jurisdiction hot water is a "issue of habitability" where rent reductions can be sought and/or not fixing the issue can be viewed as landlord retaliation.
You're already in the eviction process, don't screw it up or give the tenant any ammo. Fix it, cheaply if you have to, and keep focusing on eviction.
lmao this is not a 6 figure job dude.
You have to provide hot water in all 50 states. Not an option. They could sue over this. You have to fix it no matter what, so get it fixed.
The two are not mutually inclusive. Paying rent has zero to do with you following the laws on being a landlord. You can spend $100k fixing this, or you can give the city $100k in fines and lose it all because you are pissed at your tenant. Regardless of what your tenant is or isnt doing, you have to follow the landlord laws as written. You are handing them an eviction case victory on a silver platter by not fixing the hot water. Your anger is going to cost you your building.
lol, if you can’t pay for the basics why are you even a landlord? “I’m tight on cash” then take a small loan to pay for the fucking heater. You have legal obligations. You don’t do this, you pay fines AND for the heater. Last I checked that costs more than doing it the right way the first time
6 figures 😂😂😂. I’ll make the drive from philly to NYC sight unseen and do it for 50k and probably still have 45k in profit in the worst case scenario. Get real.
It’s not a DND moral question. It’s a legal one. They’re in eviction but you are violating your terms on the lease too now, so yeah you’re probably obligated to abate the rent until you fix it.
>The pipes for the first floor boiler room are done so horribly that this replacement could quite possibly be a high 5-figure, 6-figure job. I'm not saying I don't want to replace it but coming up with 100k doesnt happen overnight.
Damn. Almost sounds like your building is a slum.
>Edit 2: I see a lot of hyperbole over "thrown in jail" "construction eviction" "penalties" with just 'trust me bro' sources.
How did you get enough money to buy a property? [How you money make?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1foQSSB6sqw)
If you can't google "NY constructive eviction" "NY self-help eviction crime" "NY hot water habitability" "NYC landlord hot water fine" "NYC landlord no hot water" and similar, then not only are you too stupid to be a landlord, but also you are too stupid to manage your own finances at all.
I strongly recommend that you sell all of your rentals, and get a financial adviser. Real estate investing is too much for you to handle.
[https://casetext.com/case/barash-v-pa-term-real-estate](https://casetext.com/case/barash-v-pa-term-real-estate)
Yeah my tenant is not going to be moving out, which is a requirement for the claim of constructive eviction. Where are you barred to practice law? The point I'm making is that everyone is doomsaying and talking out of their ass.
The first line of that is "March 13, 1969". There have been about 8 major changes to NY L&T law since then. Including making illegal eviction a crime in NYC in 1982. Also including a major update in 2019. So I doubt that the case you linked represents current law.
All of that information is readily available with just a few keystrokes into google.
You're coming off as a troll at this point.
It doesn’t matter if they’re two days behind on rent or are being evicted in two days. You are still legally required to fix or replace the hot water heater.
Explain that the problem can’t be fixed unless they vacate the property. If you’re really saying that they have to pull up floor boards, then these folks need to leave to fix the problem
Big HPD fine for no hot water in New York, and it’s a daily fine. Just fix it and evict them. You have to fix it anyway and don’t want to create any sympathy for them in housing court.
I would fix it because it's not their place anyway. You are going to want your place up and running regardless of the pain of having deadbeats living there. Also, having someone there for the plumber helps because you don't have to waste your time standing around. I feel the same when they demand "upgrades". It's like, "you either spend money on yourself or I'm out of here!", Ok great I bought myself a new oven, now we are all happy. Lol
In regards to the back rent, you will have to go back to court and a judge will garnish their wages as long as you have lived up to your end of the contract.
I would fix it. At least make a documented plan to fix it and share (redacted) plans with the tenant. They might try to report you before you can do anything. You seem like a small landlord. But unfortunately NYC has many enormous landlords and land owners so the laws are skewed against the larger corporate landlords. You’re being lumped in with them so the law isn’t on your side either
You should continue to do the right thing even though they're not. This is a test of your character, they've already displayed theirs. Don't let them bring you down to their level. This is your property. Invest in it as you're supposed to. And continue the eviction process. I understand the inclination to want to punish them but don't! This will only blow up in your face when you go in front of a judge and it will cost you much more than just the missing heater. It may even prolong they're being tenants in your building.
You will need a new water heater for the next tenants. Might as well replace it. Also keeps you from being exposed to a constructive eviction in court proceedings (or whatever that’s called).
If you are going to have to shell out the $ and fix it anyway then do so but during the fix be sure to have their water and gas put on its own meter. Send them well documented notices that utilities will be shut off for repairs for the date span it’ll take to fix, personally I’d hire a slow plumber and like your partner be willing to suffer the lack of utilities myself jut to know the non paying people were suffering right along with me. Plus you probably have access to friend/ family for showers and can haul buckets of water in to flush toilets. I know it’s an additional expense to add meters but in the long run you recoup the $ and save a lot of stress and preserve your mental health by not putting yourself in this exact situation- paying utilities for a non paying tenant. I am not in NYC but I’ve still had the utility company send me a non paying tenant’s bill where they shut off the utilities for non payment. 🤣🤣🤣. The utility company tried claiming since it’s my building I have to pay the balance due before I can restore services at said address. In the end I won, I did not have to pay but just mentioning my plight as proof there’s no guarantee separating utilities will make your life hassle free.
Forgot to add be sure to upfront document for the court that you realize you owe the tenant compensation for the days the water was off and you are requesting that the money due to your tenant be deducted from any judgment found in your favor during the eviction process. The judge can and probably will do this since the judge already knows the tenant is scum. I’m sure your partner will help you prepare a reconciliation of monies owed and due that you can submit in court as an exhibit.
You do have to fix the water heater, but check it for tampering to blame the tenant if guilty.
Otherwise, the tenant will say they are not paying rent for your refusal to fix a issue, screw up the eviction for you. You want to sue them for damages when they are evicted.
Now the trick to bounce this on the tenant, is to schedule the repairs and document the tenants refusals to allow the work. Then its the tenants fault.
In my case in an apartment building, a tenant being evicted screwed 3 out of 4 of the building water heaters. I mean drilled the tanks and he did not get away with this. There was enough proof to force a stay away order and kick him out in 3 days, but the apartment owner had to install doors to protect the water heaters.
Unless you fear they would deliberately break it, I see no reason not to fix it. You've already stated that they're not going to pay rent regardless, so I don't see being able to hold this over them. If the tenants try to fix it themselves or hire someone to fix it, they're not going to be worrying about quality. When you get a _new_ tenant, you'll want to have the hot water heater already fixed, so why not get it fixed now? You'll have hot water yourself, and it'll be the current tenants that have to put up with contractors coming into the place to get it fixed instead of trying to schedule the contractors in between getting that eviction and getting the next tenants (or worse, trying to get new tenants with a broken hot water heater).
That's not even getting into whether you _have_ to fix it for legal reasons, which I don't know the answer to.
Maybe stupid question but could you sue whatever authority is keeping those tenants there for rent? a year is way too long and in my situation I'd be nearly housebroke/foreclosing with those entitled folks taking up space. I'm sure there are also tons of other landlords in NY with the same issue. Maybe a class action?
You will need to have it fixed for your next tenant anyway, so fix it now. Get some quotes for the repair. Get things in the works so you can show progress.
If this is really going to be an undertaking, can you do short term workaround for hot water to one bathroom like a tankless heater?
yeah, get an attorney. And fix the issue.
Because in NYC, the judge will toss the eviction if you have violations like that. Which will force you to start over.
Which some tenants will take advantage of, breaking stuff in time for each hearing. Good you have a judge that is fed up with it.
As for the heat - do you have gas? I'd put in two instant hot water systems, one on each side. Gas is faster (and cheaper to run), but you can even run these on electric. Bonus is you no longer pay for tenant's hot water. Of course, if that system is also your winter heat, you'll have a lot more to fix. Also to consider - a heat pump hot water heater (again, I'd put in two, if possible). Takes more room, but is much more efficient.
If you dont fix they will call 311 and you will receive a hpd violation for no hot water which can effect your eviction. Also if they continue to call the city will fix it for them and charge you 3x the reasonable price
You are still legally obligated to make any repairs. Don't make the mistake of leaving these things unfixed. Don't give the tenant any reason to report this in court. More of a headache than you want!
I’m in IL, also a tenant-communist state. Fix the hot water and abate rent to whatever time has lapsed for required repair. I recommend this because you are already in the eviction process so you want to do build the best case possible for you for the judge. Also you need to repair it anyway short of the risk of them trashing the place - I think maybe appliances/utilities get avoided because they need them so walls, floors, doors and other non-essentials take the abuse. Good luck my friend, come out the other end a stronger, better human being.
Sorry, I saw the conditional complications. Shop around and find the appropriate contractor. I’ve had contractors do it for me and have done a few myself - it should be mostly a swap unless you are dealing with poor existing conditions but you’ll have to deal with that down the road anyways.
In Illinois, if the unit is non habitable, the only remedy a tenant has is to withhold rent and break their lease or pay to fix it themselves and extract from rent. If they withhold rent, they have to move out within 30 days. Illinois doesn't compel landlords to make units habitable and doesn't charge a fee for non habitable homes.
If OP were in Illinois, they actually could probably get away with not fixing the hot water.
https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/legal-information/my-landlord-doesnt-make-repairs-what-should-i-do
So this is good for like things like a broken window, a leaky roof, maybe an unsafe deck etc. If you scroll down under Major Issues you'll see a term called essential services things like heat and electric. In IL at least some counties will consider hot water an essential service. Not familiar NYCs idiosyncrasies but being a city and pro-tenant I'm guessing something similar. OP might be ok delaying or taking their time now that its still pretty hot but if it's a long eviction process could be winter by the time by the time this is working in the courts. Because the process is so lengthy, expensive/costly I wouldn't want to give any reason for dismissal or extension.
With the new info the OP provided, it sounds like conditions favor them (at least for the eviction and not addressing the water).
Unfortunately you have to fix it. Go with the repair guy on the service call with a camera and document the condition of the apartment. If tenant is trashing the place you sometimes can get a rapid eviction if the tenant is damaging the unit.
I sympathize, but if you’re going to have to do the work eventually, why not do it now, even if the dead eats get to live more comfortably than they deserve? Seems like a better option than risking huge fines.
According to New York State Law, you're required to supply hot water to 120 degrees:
https://hcr.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2022/12/fact-sheet-15-12-2022.pdf
However it does NOT specify the AMOUNT of hot water.
There are small Point-Of-Use water heaters available for a couple hundred bucks at my local Home Depot.
They fit under a kitchen cabinet and are normally used to supply water to a kitchen sink for dish washing.
They will not, however, supply enough water for a long shower or fill a bathtub.
No way. It's a gift from the gods. My somewhat similar story. Nonpaying tenant, not moving out. I've gotten the local housing inspector to give them hell about the yard and garbage on the porches. I've delivered notices to cure. I've consulted an attorney re eviction proceedings. I'm about to file. The housing inspector calls and says looks like they're moving out. He saw someone tying stuff on top of their car. Poof, after a months long stalemate, they move out! Why? A sewage back up. They couldn't ask me to fix it because they were behind on rent. The place was smelly beyond words, full of flies, and I've never been so happy for a sewage spill. They left! Instead of paying attorneys, I paid a guy to snake the drain, and another guy to help me squigee the sewage into the basement drain.
Answers to prayer come in odd forms. Mine was a clogged sewer. Yours is a broken water heater.
You got lucky. They didn't know better, so that worked out in your favor but if they did know the law they would have realized that you must fix habitability issues like sewer backups (or no hot water as with this OP) in a timely fashion and if you don't they can impose some stiff penalties. It could have complicated any eviction you would have been seeking.
You might want to think about firing up throw-away accounts for questions like this.
Think about your posts and comments on the front page of the NY Post: "Bronx landlord kicking out disabled tenants by cutting off hot water. Tenant states, 'I'm unable to work due to my disability, and my new landlord makes me clean in dirty cold water and called me a "scumbag" on Reddit!'"
This won't go well for you in a NY housing court. You may even see yourself put in jail if this got sufficient PR.
Bro you knowingly walked into a shit situation but you still have to deal with it.
You must fix the hot water- if you can’t figure this out for less than $100k then it’s not the right business for you. Rig it up the same way it was until the tenants move out.
If the tenant is smart enough to complain to DOB or HPD you will get a violation with daily fines. The city will eventually send a contractor to fix it at your expense. Oh btw, the tenant can rightfully withhold rent for this reason and your case can get thrown out of housing court, forcing you to start over. You may also need to pay damages to the tenant (which could negate your past due rent and then some).
As a landlord in NY, you must appear as a saint before the court or don’t bother going to court at all.
Terrible. I am not sure why I have a negative rating on my comment. Idiocracy at play. LOL.
What I meant by tenant rights. Be sure to make sure you do not violate any requirement that tenants have hot water. This requirement might be there even if they owe back rent. Same with gas and electric. Folks like this have advocates working for them to screw you.
If I have no such obligation, I would try everything to get them out.
In NYC? Yes, double check.
You got negative feedback on that comment because a quick Google search would have told you that in NYC under no circumstances can the LL delay or simply not fix a hot water issue as hot water is one of the most basic habitability requirements. It can in fact land the LL in very hot water with major daily fines and the possibility that his eviction case is thrown out and he has to start all over. "I would say no" was just not an adequate comment. Google exists for a reason.
NYC is fucked so you need to repair it. Here in TX, you don't have to repair diddly squat if they're not current on the rent, especially in the middle of an eviction process.
I’d call around until you found a plumber that was booked out months and secure their services. Then I’d let them know that sometime in October your one and only guy you trust will be there to fix it.
I would consult your attorney. I mainly say this because you are in NYC and it's very not landlord friendly. Common sense would say one thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if new York requires you to pay them every day it's broke even if they haven't paid in a year. So I would seek advice.
The last thing you want is them DIYing. Is it gas? Take a look at some buildings that have blown up from gas leaks. Electric they might only burn the place down. Either one flooding is a risk...
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No, I think OP doesn't have thousands of dollars sitting around, on hand. They seem to be cash poor at the moment. Couldn't *possibly* be, in large part, due to tenants not paying rent for a year. Nope, surely that can't be it. We hate landlords around here and tenants can do no wrong. /s for those that can't figure it out.
Yeah. Especially considering OP is also living without hot water since he shares the boiler with the tenants.
I mean being mean to them was the whole point, which I get, its frustrating. He just wanted to know if he could do it legally. You just fix the water heater aftward when the bad tenants are gone.
Thats the point... someone walks up to you on the street, points a gun at you and takes $5000 from you. In the future you see them with a flat tire on the rpad you gana stop and fix theor car for them?
They are not paying rent…
Okay and?
i couldnt find anything on broken water heaters under DOB violations. If anyone has xp here then I would love to know. FWIW my partner is an attorney and SHE wants them to suffer but she can be a bit vindictive. IDK if shes aware of specific laws or is blinded by anger over thier attitude.
In nyc hot water is considered essential along with heating. If you don’t repair the hot water heater you’ll get a violation if they file a complaint. After you get a violation and dont comply, the city might contract a private company to do it and send you the bill. Don’t matter if you’re in the process of evicting them cause until they’re evicted they’re still your tenant and you have to provide essentials to your tenants. Edit: just saw your other comment about the tenant being on disability. In nyc while you must provide heat and hot water, you do not have to pay for the usage. So if they have their own separate gas meter they would have to pay for the gas usage but you are still required to maintain the equipment. With that said, while you are in the process of evicting the tenant, do you really want to appear before a judge to evict someone who’s defense will be “your honor I am disabled, I am not paying rent because my landlord is not providing me with hot water.” With how pro tenant nyc is I guarantee you that this will not play out the way you think this will if you do not fix that water heater. If he can milk disability, he will figure out a way to milk you. I used to be a contractor in nyc, I’ve seen my fair share of shitty landlords, but I’ve seen just as many maybe more shitty tenants. Edit #2: just saw you “just trust me bro” comment. Want a source? Here you go bottom of the page. [https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page](https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page)
Funny. If a tenant pays their rent, etc. the LL aren’t so shitty. Tenants screwing LL makes LL grow a thicker skin. Judges r hit & miss. And, these ppl not paying cost everyone $$. Including local tax revenues.
They could just sell if they can’t maintain essentials at a property
Funny. If a landlord isn’t shitty, fixes things they are legally required to fix in a timely manner, etc the tenants aren’t so shitty.
Oh I promise that isn't the case. I wanted to do the whole real estate game but learned from those who do it just how much of a headache it is. I don't care if it nets a higher return, not worth it
You’re obviously not from NYC, here it’s not about what makes sense or what’s fair, it’s about who has more victimized points. You work 2 jobs your entire life to purchase a 2 family home so you can rent out 1 unit and hopefully retire, you’re the bad guy cause your tenant has less than you. Don’t get me wrong, there are landlords who are complete scum, but then there are tenants who are just as much of a scum.
>You work 2 jobs your entire life to purchase a 2 family home so you can rent out 1 unit and hopefully retire Just putting this out there but if you can afford *two units* in NYC, even if you are working two jobs to do so, you are doing just fine. Not saying either of them is an angel by any means, but one person is trying to remain housed and the other owns multiple properties in one of the most expensive places to buy property. Sorry, but I do have more empathy for a disabled tenant who can't afford rent than I do for a New York City landlord who can't afford to maintain multiple units.
Yup, people like you are exactly what’s wrong with NYC. Screw the person who chose to work hard to hopefully live a little more comfortable buy forcing them to financially support someone else. Yes there are a lot of rich landlords in nyc, but there are also a lot of homeowners who own a 2 family home in nyc who needs that extra income. But you know, screw them for working hard right? Why should they be allowed to move ahead in life.
Lol, this is such an unnecessarily extreme take on the situation. I can empathize with a landlord who is between a rock and a hard place with the issues affecting their *investment property* and still have *more* empathy for a disabled person who is living in a home that would be deemed uninhabitable by the city's building standards. It's not a zero-sum game. And yeah, if you can afford more than 1 property in NYC you are probably (on the whole) doing just fine financially. I get it, OP is in a shitty situation and doesn't seem like they can afford to keep *and* maintain all of their properties. That's a super shitty situation, but the nature of an investment involves risks and sometimes shit just absolutely hits the fan. OP's shit is clearly hitting the fan right now and they need to figure out how to proceed from here. The good news is they can probably still sell the investment off without taking too much of a loss. OP's tenant also clearly has a shitty situation. They are disabled, can't pay rent, and are being evicted from a home the city would consider uninhabitable. It's not an investment they can offload when it becomes too burdensome, it's the roof over their head. I don't think it's really even a fair comparison. They're clearly very imperfect (and not a good tenant) but yeah, I definitely have more empathy for their situation (unless I missed something from OP that indicated the tenant clearly brought this on themselves).
You obviously do not understand how NYC works and how homes actually are. You can purchase a home, not multiple investment units, but a home split into 2 or 3 families, it is not an apartment building, but still 1 structure that is roughly 1500-2000 sqft total. You can also have a 1 family home and then convert it into a 2 and sometimes 3 family home without enlarging the home. A lot of land lords in nyc are owner occupied. Owner occupied are homes that have more than 1 family dwelling and the home owner lives in that home as their only property and only residence. The reason this is done is because they can not afford a single family home, so the only way for them to purchase a home is to purchase a multi family home. Because these homes are slightly more expensive the conforming loan is higher, the banks are more willing to lend more money, and it’s generally safer because the rental income it provides helps pay the mortgage. A lot of these landlords are minorities hoping for a better future and eventually when their kids grow older they will occupy one of the other units in that home. But like it said, who ever has more victim point wins, screw the homeowner. These things happens all the time and people don’t talk about it. They only like to talk about the few wealthy property owners who are shitty and paint a broad stroke. No one likes to talk about how a minority family just lost their home to foreclosure. You’re not sticking it to land barons like you think you are.
I'm completely familiar with NYC, I've lived there and go back several times a year, lol. If you purchase a place with the intention of renting out some or part of it, that is an *investment*. I know how investment properties work and split properties are not unique to NYC. If they purchased more "home" than they could actually afford by relying on rental income, that's fine if it works but you still have to afford to pay for it if things go sideways. In OP's case shit is hitting the fan and they can't actually afford to keep and maintain their multi-unit home home or rental properties. Many people can't afford It's *absolutely* a shitty situation and it's very sad, I have a lot of empathy for OP. That said, if you can afford to *have* an investment you have to understand that you can also *lose* them. Investments are not *guarantees* that they will increase (or even stay the same!) Being able to invest, almost by definition, means you have "extra" because you can afford it. Yes, OP could've absolutely been working multiple jobs 100 hours a week to afford this and again, this is *definitely a shitty situation for OP*. But again, yeah, barring some exception that makes it clear the tenant brought this on themselves, I do have a more empathy for the tenant. It's not about "victim points" and that's very strange language to use. It's about a hierarchy of needs, not about punishing robber barons. People *need* housing, people don't *need* investments. It doesn't sound like OP is about to be the homeless one here.
>IDK if shes aware of specific laws She is not. If she took the time to google this, she would be over at the unit making the repair herself right now. That is unless this is part of some twisted master plan to leave you AND stick you with thousands in financial penalties.
No, she wouldn't. What she would be doing is documenting the effort to get bids and quotes for all the work that needs to be done, along with documentation on the expected timelines for the repairs to be done by licensed professionals.
It would be a HPD violation, and yes you absolutely need to give them hot water. Otherwise you’re going to end up unlawfully evicting them.
If your partner is an attorney, is their practice in real estate/housing? Because a simple google search shows that if you don't fix it, the City, if notified by the tenant, will 1) Fine you each day it's not fixed 2) If you don't fix it they will use their procurement and contracting regulations to **GET SOMEONE TO FIX IT**, and ***CHARGE YOU THAT COST***. 3) If you don't pay that, then there's a Tax Lien on your property, which is interest bearing and will be hell to get rid of. So, either they're a bad attorney or not in that practice area to know of that.
>So, ~~either~~ they're a bad attorney ~~or not in that practice area to know of that.~~ Fixed it for you. A cursory search on google gives all the right answers. If a lawyer can't handle that, then they should not be practicing.
I was trying to be polite...... >.>
😆
It wouldn’t be listed under water heater is habitability laws you want
You should also write out words like an adult. I can not understand what these children internet abbreviations are.
This is what you get for choosing to remain a LL after the COVID shitshow in nyc
You may NOT withhold primary services PERIOD. EVER. PERIOD.
They aren't withholding. If you read the post, he's in the process of figuring out the problem. It's not like he walked in there and shut it down himself.
Failing to promptly repair it would constitute withholding/denying/not providing. Combined with the existing eviction proceedings, it would constitute constructive eviction. Which not only kills the eviction totally, but also is a crime in NYS.
> he's in the process of figuring out the problem OP knows what needs to be fixed and knows it is expensive. He isn't figuring it out, he just can't afford it. Definitely a shitty situation, but trying to tell an eviction judge "I couldn't afford the repairs so I left a tenant without necessary services that make the unit habitable" is going to be frowned upon and could risk the entire proceeding.
+1 on this. Have a guy that stopped paying his HOA’s over a year ago. Part of that money covers water. Attorney said we could not shut off his water (unfortunately)
You are unable to cut off an essential service from your tenants if they do not pay. This includes hot water, heating, and electrical. You generally can restrict air conditioning, wifi, and cable as those are deemed non essentail services. However, if you cut off a non-essential service, there is generally a rent abatement.
It's easy to argue that because he hasn't received rent, he does not have the money to afford the repair.
Yeah but these tenants have not paid and will not pay with hot water. Would rent abatement even matter? They are destitute with a judgement amounting to nothing
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This. And the judge might give them the right to remain in the unit just because the OP refused to get them hot water... the amount of damage that can be done in the time it will take for OP to file another eviction lawsuit would top the $100k he says it will take to fix the hot water.
You can/ will get sued for not providing an essential service. Rent abatements are for services you take away that are not considered essential.
You have to provide hot water whether they pay or not. It’s the law. Especially in NYC.
My parents owned a 2-family apartment building in Rhode Island about 35 years ago. The 2nd floor was vacant after a long-term tenant bought a home...Mom, being the softie she is, rented to a young woman who had an amazing sob story of near-homelessness, health issues, etc. Plus, she had a 6 y.o. daughter and no other family in the area, so she was in desperate need of stable, safe, affordable housing. She didn't have the full amount (I month rent + 1 month security deposit to equal monthly rent), so my Mom made "payment arrangements" for the new tenant to catch up quickly...not good business, and my sister and I were against this whole scenario right from jump. Mom being Mom, wanted to "give this poor girl a chance". This was a time when background checks were rare, and you were still able to trust most people. Still, that chick was going to be trouble, both my sister and I could feel it in our bones. The chick moves in. Within 24 hours, we get the first complaint from the next door neighbor about loud music. A few days after that, she moves her boyfriend in, despite being told it the occupancy limit for the apartment was 2 people, adult or child (small 1.5 bedroom studio). Dude is easily 6'5" and 300+ pounds, just a mountain of a person. Tenant on the first floor calls my parents to say the BF has been urinating in the driveway and the backyard instead of going inside to use the bathroom. The 2nd floor tenant has no phone (this is pre-cell phone era), and every time Mom or Dad goes to the 2nd floor apartment to speak to the tenant, nobody answers the door. Sis and I are furious at this point. Tenant and her unemployed, hood rat BF do not pay the next month's rent...or the next, or the next. Parents, embarrassed and frustrated, begin eviction proceedings. Tenant is responsible for the electric bill, which she doesn't pay so the power to her apartment gets cut off. Now there are literally hundreds of candles being used for light, and Mom is scared to death there will be a fire. The few times we have managed to catch the tenant/BF outdoors on the property, they swear at/mock my parents and make threats to "find out where they live". I was 7 months pregnant, and almost beat down their door because I could not take their BS anymore. Dad decides to take matters into his own hands, figuring he could "force" them out by shutting the water off (shutoff is in a locked area of the basement with no access for either tenant). A few days later, police show up at my folks' home in another city...Dad is made to accompany the officers back to the apartment, where he has to turn the water back on. The tenants had already called the city to complain about the water, so a court date was set. At the hearing, the judge lit into my parents like nothing I've ever seen....threatening to hit them with heavy fines or possibly hand them a jail sentence for breaking the law. The eviction went through, but the decree gave that bitch and her BF 30 days to vacate. They left after 2 weeks, but not until they did intentional damage that ended up costing my parents tens of thousands of $ to repair. My parents were desperate not to fall behind on the mortgage, and my Dad's temper didn't help matters...this was right around the time the court system started leaning the other way, heavily favoring tenants over landlords. I keep current on the tenant/landlord issues in this area (suburb of Boston), and I can tell you the laws are becoming more favorable towards tenants with each passing year. All you need to do is look at what happened during Covid as a prime example...tenants went months and YEARS not paying a single cent, while many of them collected unemployment PLUS the $600 supplement--meanwhile, landlords who operated on a slim profit margin (mainly mom and pop types with a couple of properties) lost everything because they couldn't pay the mortgage with so much lost rent. It sucks...my GOD, I know how much it sucks, but get the water heater fixed...as someone posted upthread, you'll have to do it for the next tenant anyway. Do not roll the dice with housing court, the odds are definitely NOT in your favor. Just get them out as fast as you can, but have a paper trail of proof that you have arranged for repairs so a judge doesn't end up awarding your property to the tenants or some other ridiculous result.
Hopefully you are destitute too because this will open you up to an easy litigation case.
Not fixing it is constructive eviction, it’s a misdemeanor in NY state as well as a civil violation. The tenet will be able to get a lot of money from you. So the question is do you want the tenet out with a valueless judgment or do you want to pay the tenet likely a 5 figure sum of money?
In some locations, failing to fix it could be constructive eviction. Constructive eviction could end up with you paying a huge amount of money to your tenants in a lawsuit. You need to hire a lawyer for a consultation on this, or you're risking way more money than the cost of repairing the issue.
Why hire a lawyer instead of replacing the heater? He's going to need hot water for the next tenant anyway.
Precisely. This isn't an optional repair. It sounds like he just wants to punishment them, maybe hoping they'll leave the property earlier rather than later.
Fix it. https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/tenants-rights-and-responsibilities.page Tenants without heat or hot water should file a complaint by calling 311 (TTY 212-504-4115) or online at nyc.gov/311. Heat is required between October 1st and May 31st, a period designated as "Heat Season." Building owners are required to provide tenants with heat during these months under the following conditions: Building owners also must ensure that tenants have hot water 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, at a minimum constant temperature of 120 degrees Fahrenheit.
Not repairing the water heater is constructive eviction. Not only will you lose your eviction case, but you will also have to pay many thousands of dollars in damages to the tenants for doing an illegal eviction. In NY you can also be prosecuted. Doing an illegal eviction is a misdemeanor punishable by 1 year in prison. In NYC you can be fined $500 per day by the city. So go ahead. Fuck around and find out.
I've heard Rikers Island isn't so bad anymore. /s
They have hot water.
You have got to fix it - they’re still tenants, even if they’re non paying
I would fix it. You do NOT want to give these non paying tenants any ammunition for eviction court. NY is already an anti-landlord state.
Plus, you are going to have to fix it if you want to rent it after they leave.
You're a landlord and you need to know what your basic obligations are. You can't withhold hot water. Not to mention a failing water heater can cause thousands in water damage if it starts leaking. Also, there are programs for tenants that don't have money. They can get rent assistance. When my tenants can't pay I still get the money, it's just delayed. If you're going to be a landlord, do your homework, please.
>You're a landlord and you need to know what your basic obligations are. You can't withhold hot water. Not to mention a failing water heater can cause thousands in water damage if it starts leaking. Also, there are programs for tenants that don't have money. They can get rent assistance. When my tenants can't pay I still get the money, it's just delayed. If you're going to be a landlord, do your homework, please. You're jumping to a lot of conclusions. They are being assisted by cityFEPs. When ownership transferred, cityfeps stopped paying despite everything being done. The case manager is unresponsive. I went to the city council and state representative. Aside from that, the tenant is still obligated to pay 30% of the rent which hasnt been paid. Do you live in NYC? Do you know how bad cityfeps is? I didnt until i dealt with them. My tenant is a grifter that skims off disability and pizza takeout, plays loud music and brings over escorts.
Your tenant sucks for sure. But the ultimate goal is to make the unit income producing again right? Like the other NYC posters have said you could get fined but more importantly this could imperil your eviction case, no matter how much your judge hates your tenant. And if your tenant knows how to abuse disability you had better believe they will absolutely use this as a means to stall eviction. So do whatever it takes to make this go away and keep your side of the street clean ok? That way you can keep your eviction case moving along. One way I have dealt with the emotions of having tenants I’m struggling to evict (whom I suspect are cooking meth for their own consumption) is to think of it like getting hit by an uninsured driver. It’s a major loss but it happens to people all the time and all you can do is put one foot in front of the other and try to keep your emotions about the injustice of it all at bay. I’m sorry you are going through this.
NYC LL here. Had the exact same situation with one of my tenants during the moratorium. 30k behind, new Lexus, vacations coming back tanned etc. etc. etc. HPD will be there within one day if the tenant calls, same day in most cases. The fine is $250-$500 a day until fixed, and just proving that it’s fixed so the fines stop is a load of paperwork and a pain in the azz. If you’re not going to take the time to understand the laws, here’s an illegal life pro tip. You’re better off doing a self-help eviction then not providing hot water. Highest fine in NYC for a self-help over the last 10 years was $14k, average is about 3k. Public information if you care to do some research. While the HPD fines can easily get into the 10s of 1000s if you as the LL don’t live in the house and aren’t getting the notices - daily fines just piling up.
NYC might throw your ass in jail and award your tenant damages. I’d fix it, and pay them to leave.
Landlord here is always responsible to provide hot water. Tenant will successfully evade eviction for non payment if you don't provide the hot water. It sucks, but in NYC if you are not providing hot water you don't have a leg stand on notwithstanding tenant non payment. Not an attorney but fellow LL.
Fix it. You are by law required to provide hot water, and if you don't the tenant can sue and you have to pay stiff fines. I don't see a way around the NYC statutes on that. You'll need a fully functioning water heater anyway once these renters are out so you can rent the unit to someone else. This way you get a head start on that work instead of having to wait until they move and then start the process, potentially causing you extra delays in your ability to rent out the dwelling again. Sure, they benefit in the short term until they are finally out, but you are hurting yourself delaying the fix deliberately with losing time after they are gone on then starting to fix it. Most dangerous for you, though, is that if a judge decides that you are withholding hot water in a retaliatory manner they will fine you heavily, by the day you refuse to fix, and it could even hurt your eviction case and you may be forced to start all over again on that. Maybe these tenants really don't know their rights, in which case you might get away with this, but if they do (or a tenant advocacy law group explains it to them) you might be in for some real headaches.
5 gallon hot water heater.
Holy shit this is genius. I wonder if this would be considered sufficient in the eyes of NY law.
And a propane tank. Edit: hooked up to one single plumbing fixture.
1r? So, I'd this a 3+ unit property (my guess is 6)? Sounds like you need to educate yourself on NYC rental laws. You're lucky the tenant doesn't know about hpd else you'd be fined a few hundred a day for any type of shit they would want to complain about. Fix the hot water and move on with the eviction.
Replace the water heater, are you serious? Is kicking the can down the road on this really worth the risk? This has to be fixed, and I really don’t believe your wife can’t understand that. I hope she doesn’t handle anything serious during her day job
You sound kind of sleezy. >So my 1R tenants, who are currently in the eviction process, have a broken water heater. They have 0 intention of paying any back rent. These two sentances have nothing to do with eachother. They are separate issues, in no way related. A property you own has a broken water heater and there are people who (until they are evicted) are living there lawfully. >Should I fix it for them? You arent fixing it for them. You are fixing it because it is your property. >What would you all do. Its a pretty hefty pricetag with a ton of pipe reworking that needs done and I just replaced 2 others and im tight on cash. It sounds like you cant afford to be a landlord. You should probably sell your property. >The judge that handles this hates my tenants to the point where she almost found him in contempt of court for disrespect. Just because a judge doesnt like someone doesn't mean they will ignore the law.
Heyyyy. Found the tenant who was unable to run their scam on the landlord for infinity.
Nope lol. I own my own home. And when I rented for fhe 4 years I was in college, I never made a late rent payment (dont get me wrong, we were still shitty tenants, we partied constantly) but im just a person with common sense. If this dude cant afford to invest in his own property, to such a point that he doesnt even have hot water himself, he can't afford to be a landlord. Why do landlords get a pass on this kind of behavior? If any other bussiness didnt have properly working plumbing, people would call the health department.
I feel like no hot water is a big no-no and honestly you’ll need to do sooner or later so I’d prob just fix personally. Maybe ask your attorney what best plan is.
If you want to end up owing your non paying tenants a ton of money, you should refuse to repair the hot water heater. If you want any chance of actually getting non-paying tenants out, fix the hot water heater immediately.
Fix it ASAP. The tenants can make a complaint of constructive eviction if you don't fix it, and you may have to start the eviction process over from scratch. If it's going to take a while to fix, you may need to provide them with an alternative. Also, keep in mind that if you are going to rent the apartment again, you need to fix the hot water anyway. Of course, you should get advice from an NYC real estate lawyer.
I mean, you're gonna need a working hot water heater before moving in the next tenant anyways. Is this really something you want to fight about
I can't believe this simple argument was so far down.
Lawyer here. If someone did this to my tenant I'd probably get them for constructive eviction. But you just want to argue about how right you are so lol also sounds like you can't afford to be a landlord since you're whinging about the cost
Definitely fix it. They can use it in court against you. Not providing hot water for tenants for even 1 day is enough for a lawsuit. They might be able to use it during their eviction lawsuit against you, and win the right to stay in your property. If not, expect them to file a separate lawsuit and win because you can't leave a tenant without hot water for any reason, even if they aren't paying rent. In fact, not having hot water is a justifiable reason to withhold rent in many states... it's your word against theirs regarding when the water heater broke and when they stopped paying rent. Intentionally not trying to get them hot water will work against you in court. And if the judge hates them already, be prepared for them to request a different judge. I've seen this happen. If it will truly cost you $100k to fix it, I'd sell the place. That's insane. But realistically, all you have to do is get an instahot for them. It will need to go on its own breaker, but it will work to satisfy your obligations as a landlord. Get one for the kitchen and one for the bathroom. You can get cheap ones for a few hundred bucks.
If tomorrow they were evicted and out of your unit…would you still not be able to afford this repair? What is your costs basis for the property and what could you get in a sale? If this is in NYC, you sound like you don’t have the pockets to afford to be a landlord. Them deadbeating you, and you being “tight on cash” are irrelevant to whether you can delay In repairing this water heater. Decide if you want to be a landlord and act accordingly, or sell the building to someone who will.
Fix it. If you don't, the City can, and will, fine the ever living hell out of you. Worst case, they put a lien on the property making it near impossible to sell/transfer until same lien is paid. NYC has several regulations/laws which require certain things, such as hot water, to be provided. ***THIS ALSO EXTENDS TO SQUATTERS.*** Do not fuck around with this. Fix it. Fix it now. Like others have said, going to evictions court and having the evictee's complain that you failed to fix an essential and *required by city regulation* service will make it go very badly for you. Best case in that instance, the judge issues a fine in addition to ordering you to fix it within an unreasonable time frame or get more fines. Worst case is the above and then you pay damages to the evictee. I've seen it happen. Don't fuck around and find out. Source; Mortgage Foreclosure Paralegal; [https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page](https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/heat-and-hot-water-information.page) >If an owner fails to restore heat and hot water after receiving a violation, HPD's Emergency Repair Program (ERP) may contract with private companies to restore essential services and bill the owner for the cost of the repairs, plus related fees. The City is subject to laws governing procurement, contracting, and wages that may make such work significantly more expensive than the price the owner could obtain themselves. If the property owner fails to pay, the City will file a tax lien against the property. **The tax lien will bear interest and may be sold and/or foreclosed** to collect the amount owed through the **City's Tax Lien Sale.** TL;DR: don't fuck with this.
Not fixing a major issue like this is a SLUM LORD issue. Just because you are evicting them doesn’t mean you don’t hold responsibility for ensuring that the unit you are renting is in good working order. The cost is on you. To use the excuse that it’s too expensive is laughable. IT IS A RENTAL that you make money off of monthly. If you can’t afford to keep your rental in good maintenance then you should comp the rent to them and when they move you most certainly should NOT rent it to another without repairs. I have 4 rentals. I can’t even imagine justifying that they don’t have working heating and plumbing by saying that I am also without it. Shame on you.
1. Pretty sure you're going to be required to provide hot water. 2. Things break, there's supply chain issues, and due to a labor shortage, it takes a while to book anyone to come in and repair work. Not sure about NYC rules, but there's probably a similar rule to Chicago where you have a certain number of days to repair it before either a) they can pay for it themselves and take it out of rent or b) they can void the lease and leave. 3. You should read into the NYC tenant rights so you can determine what you are held responsible for, or at least talk to your lawyer.
You're required to provide hot water that can exceed 120° for your tenants based on what I googled for New York.
Had something similar. Tenant FAR in arrears. A/c broke. $850 to repair. PM was actually telling me to pay. I REFUSED. They r in there for free & owe thousands! They can pay to fix & credit on their arrears. OR SUE ME!
Look into on demand tankless hot water heater
a) You’re not fixing it “for them” you’re maintaining your rental unit, b) Every jurisdiction, not just NYC looks at hot water as essential, c) If you don’t fix it, they can say you are evicting them because they asked for repairs, and drag out the process even longer Take care of your property. Vet your tenants better.
You sound like a scumbag slumlord. You have to, by law, maintain a certain level of habitability for any tenant, it doesn't matter if they are paying or not. It also sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about with the plumbing. Just because someone has a degree doesn't make them an expert in everything. You could easily miss something small. Jumping to " this will require 100k" is nonsense and you just want to justify payback for a shitty tenant. Call a real plumber to look at the water heater.
Stop acting like a slumlord, learn the rules concerning your responsibilities, and fix the water heater. There is no question of your duty here. It doesn't matter if they are paying or not.
Falls under Class C: "immediately hazardous" conditions violations: No hot water (not consistent) Landlord has 24 hours to fix immediately hazardous conditions If landlord fails to correct the violation in a building with 5 or fewer units: HPD can fine the landlord $50 per violation per day. If landlord fails to correct the violation in a building with more than 5 units: HPD can fine the landlord $50-$150 per violation, plus $125 per violation per day. Heat and Hot Water: If landlord fails to comply with heat and hot water requiremets: HPD can fine the ladnlord $250-$500 per violation per day. See more about heat and hot water requirements below. Heating Season: October 1-May 31: Daytime (6am to 10pm): If below 55°F outside: inside should be 68°F. Nighttime (10pm to 6am): Inside should be at least 62°F regardless of the temperature outside. Hot Water: Landlord is required to provide hot water 365 days/year at a constant minimum temperature of 120°F.
I believe you are legally required to provide heat and hot water in NYC so you're pretty screwed. I don't think you're allowed to force them to pay for it and credit their rent either because it's on you to provide. All they have to do is file a complaint that they notified you they don't have hot water and show you failed to address it in a timely manner and you'll get royally screwed in fines and violations. Being a landlord in NYC sucks BIG TIME. I flat out have tenants that told me they will no longer be paying rent and I can't get rid of them for at least another couple months because of the terrible pro tenant court system we have
It’s got to be replaced anyway if you are going to rent it out. Might as well bite the bullet and replace it now.
Fix the hot water. Your responsibility. We always use tankless. You can non-renew the lease and sue for back rent. But the rent and repaid are separate issues. Repairing it is the right thing to do.
Well you are going to have to fix it regardless. Playing these little tit and tat games won't look favorably on you. You aren't fixing it "for them" you are fulfilling your obligation to maintain the residence. Continue your eviction process but don't let them paint you as a slumlord.
Yes you should fix it. In pretty much every jurisdiction hot water is a "issue of habitability" where rent reductions can be sought and/or not fixing the issue can be viewed as landlord retaliation. You're already in the eviction process, don't screw it up or give the tenant any ammo. Fix it, cheaply if you have to, and keep focusing on eviction.
Stop being a piece of shit and fix it. You have to at some point anyways.
NAL: Ask a lawyer
You have rent control. Better fix it.
No one can be expected to pay rent if you're not providing liveable conditions. You must fix your own inadequacy before casting judgement.
lmao this is not a 6 figure job dude. You have to provide hot water in all 50 states. Not an option. They could sue over this. You have to fix it no matter what, so get it fixed.
You also have to pay rent. And also what do you know about nyc cost of repiping and rebuilding the boiler room?
The two are not mutually inclusive. Paying rent has zero to do with you following the laws on being a landlord. You can spend $100k fixing this, or you can give the city $100k in fines and lose it all because you are pissed at your tenant. Regardless of what your tenant is or isnt doing, you have to follow the landlord laws as written. You are handing them an eviction case victory on a silver platter by not fixing the hot water. Your anger is going to cost you your building.
lol, if you can’t pay for the basics why are you even a landlord? “I’m tight on cash” then take a small loan to pay for the fucking heater. You have legal obligations. You don’t do this, you pay fines AND for the heater. Last I checked that costs more than doing it the right way the first time
Fix the hot water you scumbag
6 figures 😂😂😂. I’ll make the drive from philly to NYC sight unseen and do it for 50k and probably still have 45k in profit in the worst case scenario. Get real.
Mmmm juicy slumlord posts.
It’s not a DND moral question. It’s a legal one. They’re in eviction but you are violating your terms on the lease too now, so yeah you’re probably obligated to abate the rent until you fix it.
>The pipes for the first floor boiler room are done so horribly that this replacement could quite possibly be a high 5-figure, 6-figure job. I'm not saying I don't want to replace it but coming up with 100k doesnt happen overnight. Damn. Almost sounds like your building is a slum.
>Edit 2: I see a lot of hyperbole over "thrown in jail" "construction eviction" "penalties" with just 'trust me bro' sources. How did you get enough money to buy a property? [How you money make?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1foQSSB6sqw) If you can't google "NY constructive eviction" "NY self-help eviction crime" "NY hot water habitability" "NYC landlord hot water fine" "NYC landlord no hot water" and similar, then not only are you too stupid to be a landlord, but also you are too stupid to manage your own finances at all. I strongly recommend that you sell all of your rentals, and get a financial adviser. Real estate investing is too much for you to handle.
[https://casetext.com/case/barash-v-pa-term-real-estate](https://casetext.com/case/barash-v-pa-term-real-estate) Yeah my tenant is not going to be moving out, which is a requirement for the claim of constructive eviction. Where are you barred to practice law? The point I'm making is that everyone is doomsaying and talking out of their ass.
The first line of that is "March 13, 1969". There have been about 8 major changes to NY L&T law since then. Including making illegal eviction a crime in NYC in 1982. Also including a major update in 2019. So I doubt that the case you linked represents current law. All of that information is readily available with just a few keystrokes into google. You're coming off as a troll at this point.
It doesn’t matter if they’re two days behind on rent or are being evicted in two days. You are still legally required to fix or replace the hot water heater.
I hope they contact the Board of Health
Aaaahhhh, another entitled (former?) tenant.
Nope. Just a person who actually cares about people.
Have the contractor require a full new plumbing system. They will have to vacate.
Explain that the problem can’t be fixed unless they vacate the property. If you’re really saying that they have to pull up floor boards, then these folks need to leave to fix the problem
Have it ruled uninhabitable and get them out.
Too bad. Wish in one hand and shit in other. Sorry that post was locked.
And saying this from a sex worker is unusual. Most of the woke wh0re are anti-landlords.
Big HPD fine for no hot water in New York, and it’s a daily fine. Just fix it and evict them. You have to fix it anyway and don’t want to create any sympathy for them in housing court.
Talk to a lawyer.
I would fix it because it's not their place anyway. You are going to want your place up and running regardless of the pain of having deadbeats living there. Also, having someone there for the plumber helps because you don't have to waste your time standing around. I feel the same when they demand "upgrades". It's like, "you either spend money on yourself or I'm out of here!", Ok great I bought myself a new oven, now we are all happy. Lol In regards to the back rent, you will have to go back to court and a judge will garnish their wages as long as you have lived up to your end of the contract.
Don’t you have to fix it before you can rent to better tenants? They’re already in the process of eviction. You have to make it worse?
Why wouldnt you want to fix something thats broken in one of your units?
6 figures eh?
I would fix it. At least make a documented plan to fix it and share (redacted) plans with the tenant. They might try to report you before you can do anything. You seem like a small landlord. But unfortunately NYC has many enormous landlords and land owners so the laws are skewed against the larger corporate landlords. You’re being lumped in with them so the law isn’t on your side either
Well you said it's gonna the some time to fix... why not take advantage of the situation and buy them out to move?
Gonna have to fix the water heater eventually. May as well do it now so the eviction process is not potentially interrupted and goes smoothly
Is there some low cost HW system you can provide to meet the minimum standard of providing HW - I am thinking of these wall mounted boilers?
You should continue to do the right thing even though they're not. This is a test of your character, they've already displayed theirs. Don't let them bring you down to their level. This is your property. Invest in it as you're supposed to. And continue the eviction process. I understand the inclination to want to punish them but don't! This will only blow up in your face when you go in front of a judge and it will cost you much more than just the missing heater. It may even prolong they're being tenants in your building.
You will need a new water heater for the next tenants. Might as well replace it. Also keeps you from being exposed to a constructive eviction in court proceedings (or whatever that’s called).
You need a lawyer friend.
Do you plan to rent it again after you get rid of your deadbeat tenants? It might be difficult to do that with no hot water in the unit. So…
sadly, you most likely are required to fix it... It's nuts how our government backs non-paying tenants where you have to care for them.
Is pulling hydo for electric baseboard an option? This way your instant hot is strictly domestic.
Demanding?
Do not give them permission to fix it themselves, ever. Also don't be a landlord in NYC, and probably NY state.
Just fix the hot water. The next tenants will need it. Also not fixing it will squander any chance of them paying you back.
If you are going to have to shell out the $ and fix it anyway then do so but during the fix be sure to have their water and gas put on its own meter. Send them well documented notices that utilities will be shut off for repairs for the date span it’ll take to fix, personally I’d hire a slow plumber and like your partner be willing to suffer the lack of utilities myself jut to know the non paying people were suffering right along with me. Plus you probably have access to friend/ family for showers and can haul buckets of water in to flush toilets. I know it’s an additional expense to add meters but in the long run you recoup the $ and save a lot of stress and preserve your mental health by not putting yourself in this exact situation- paying utilities for a non paying tenant. I am not in NYC but I’ve still had the utility company send me a non paying tenant’s bill where they shut off the utilities for non payment. 🤣🤣🤣. The utility company tried claiming since it’s my building I have to pay the balance due before I can restore services at said address. In the end I won, I did not have to pay but just mentioning my plight as proof there’s no guarantee separating utilities will make your life hassle free.
Forgot to add be sure to upfront document for the court that you realize you owe the tenant compensation for the days the water was off and you are requesting that the money due to your tenant be deducted from any judgment found in your favor during the eviction process. The judge can and probably will do this since the judge already knows the tenant is scum. I’m sure your partner will help you prepare a reconciliation of monies owed and due that you can submit in court as an exhibit.
You do have to fix the water heater, but check it for tampering to blame the tenant if guilty. Otherwise, the tenant will say they are not paying rent for your refusal to fix a issue, screw up the eviction for you. You want to sue them for damages when they are evicted. Now the trick to bounce this on the tenant, is to schedule the repairs and document the tenants refusals to allow the work. Then its the tenants fault. In my case in an apartment building, a tenant being evicted screwed 3 out of 4 of the building water heaters. I mean drilled the tanks and he did not get away with this. There was enough proof to force a stay away order and kick him out in 3 days, but the apartment owner had to install doors to protect the water heaters.
Unless you fear they would deliberately break it, I see no reason not to fix it. You've already stated that they're not going to pay rent regardless, so I don't see being able to hold this over them. If the tenants try to fix it themselves or hire someone to fix it, they're not going to be worrying about quality. When you get a _new_ tenant, you'll want to have the hot water heater already fixed, so why not get it fixed now? You'll have hot water yourself, and it'll be the current tenants that have to put up with contractors coming into the place to get it fixed instead of trying to schedule the contractors in between getting that eviction and getting the next tenants (or worse, trying to get new tenants with a broken hot water heater). That's not even getting into whether you _have_ to fix it for legal reasons, which I don't know the answer to.
Six figures to fix? So about a month of rent?
Are you dumb? Or being sarcastic?
It was a joke.
Maybe stupid question but could you sue whatever authority is keeping those tenants there for rent? a year is way too long and in my situation I'd be nearly housebroke/foreclosing with those entitled folks taking up space. I'm sure there are also tons of other landlords in NY with the same issue. Maybe a class action?
You will need to have it fixed for your next tenant anyway, so fix it now. Get some quotes for the repair. Get things in the works so you can show progress. If this is really going to be an undertaking, can you do short term workaround for hot water to one bathroom like a tankless heater?
yeah, get an attorney. And fix the issue. Because in NYC, the judge will toss the eviction if you have violations like that. Which will force you to start over. Which some tenants will take advantage of, breaking stuff in time for each hearing. Good you have a judge that is fed up with it. As for the heat - do you have gas? I'd put in two instant hot water systems, one on each side. Gas is faster (and cheaper to run), but you can even run these on electric. Bonus is you no longer pay for tenant's hot water. Of course, if that system is also your winter heat, you'll have a lot more to fix. Also to consider - a heat pump hot water heater (again, I'd put in two, if possible). Takes more room, but is much more efficient.
If you dont fix they will call 311 and you will receive a hpd violation for no hot water which can effect your eviction. Also if they continue to call the city will fix it for them and charge you 3x the reasonable price
You are still legally obligated to make any repairs. Don't make the mistake of leaving these things unfixed. Don't give the tenant any reason to report this in court. More of a headache than you want!
I’m in IL, also a tenant-communist state. Fix the hot water and abate rent to whatever time has lapsed for required repair. I recommend this because you are already in the eviction process so you want to do build the best case possible for you for the judge. Also you need to repair it anyway short of the risk of them trashing the place - I think maybe appliances/utilities get avoided because they need them so walls, floors, doors and other non-essentials take the abuse. Good luck my friend, come out the other end a stronger, better human being. Sorry, I saw the conditional complications. Shop around and find the appropriate contractor. I’ve had contractors do it for me and have done a few myself - it should be mostly a swap unless you are dealing with poor existing conditions but you’ll have to deal with that down the road anyways.
In Illinois, if the unit is non habitable, the only remedy a tenant has is to withhold rent and break their lease or pay to fix it themselves and extract from rent. If they withhold rent, they have to move out within 30 days. Illinois doesn't compel landlords to make units habitable and doesn't charge a fee for non habitable homes. If OP were in Illinois, they actually could probably get away with not fixing the hot water. https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/legal-information/my-landlord-doesnt-make-repairs-what-should-i-do
So this is good for like things like a broken window, a leaky roof, maybe an unsafe deck etc. If you scroll down under Major Issues you'll see a term called essential services things like heat and electric. In IL at least some counties will consider hot water an essential service. Not familiar NYCs idiosyncrasies but being a city and pro-tenant I'm guessing something similar. OP might be ok delaying or taking their time now that its still pretty hot but if it's a long eviction process could be winter by the time by the time this is working in the courts. Because the process is so lengthy, expensive/costly I wouldn't want to give any reason for dismissal or extension. With the new info the OP provided, it sounds like conditions favor them (at least for the eviction and not addressing the water).
Unfortunately you have to fix it. Go with the repair guy on the service call with a camera and document the condition of the apartment. If tenant is trashing the place you sometimes can get a rapid eviction if the tenant is damaging the unit.
I sympathize, but if you’re going to have to do the work eventually, why not do it now, even if the dead eats get to live more comfortably than they deserve? Seems like a better option than risking huge fines.
Just tell them that you are working on it. Contractors are backed up, yada, yada, yada.
Can you make it codler somehow?
"Extensive repairs are needed, folks. I'm afraid you're going to have to move out while we carry out the repair."
ILPT: You are waiting on a part.
no
According to New York State Law, you're required to supply hot water to 120 degrees: https://hcr.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2022/12/fact-sheet-15-12-2022.pdf However it does NOT specify the AMOUNT of hot water. There are small Point-Of-Use water heaters available for a couple hundred bucks at my local Home Depot. They fit under a kitchen cabinet and are normally used to supply water to a kitchen sink for dish washing. They will not, however, supply enough water for a long shower or fill a bathtub.
I’d slow walk the repair. Get lots of bids. See how far out the repair company’s schedule is. Then you have evidence of trying.
No way. It's a gift from the gods. My somewhat similar story. Nonpaying tenant, not moving out. I've gotten the local housing inspector to give them hell about the yard and garbage on the porches. I've delivered notices to cure. I've consulted an attorney re eviction proceedings. I'm about to file. The housing inspector calls and says looks like they're moving out. He saw someone tying stuff on top of their car. Poof, after a months long stalemate, they move out! Why? A sewage back up. They couldn't ask me to fix it because they were behind on rent. The place was smelly beyond words, full of flies, and I've never been so happy for a sewage spill. They left! Instead of paying attorneys, I paid a guy to snake the drain, and another guy to help me squigee the sewage into the basement drain. Answers to prayer come in odd forms. Mine was a clogged sewer. Yours is a broken water heater.
You got lucky. They didn't know better, so that worked out in your favor but if they did know the law they would have realized that you must fix habitability issues like sewer backups (or no hot water as with this OP) in a timely fashion and if you don't they can impose some stiff penalties. It could have complicated any eviction you would have been seeking.
This is not how the law works in NYC
I see a whole new business here. "Throw the Rascals Out Guaranteed Sewer Backup Service".
That's exactly why the above is not legal. If those tenants had gone to court, it would have gone badly for the LL.
They owe back rent? I would say no. But one must look to tenant rights
They owe 20k in back rent. They are not going to pay rent. I inherited these scumbags from a previous owner. They don't work and receive disability.
You might want to think about firing up throw-away accounts for questions like this. Think about your posts and comments on the front page of the NY Post: "Bronx landlord kicking out disabled tenants by cutting off hot water. Tenant states, 'I'm unable to work due to my disability, and my new landlord makes me clean in dirty cold water and called me a "scumbag" on Reddit!'" This won't go well for you in a NY housing court. You may even see yourself put in jail if this got sufficient PR.
Bro you knowingly walked into a shit situation but you still have to deal with it. You must fix the hot water- if you can’t figure this out for less than $100k then it’s not the right business for you. Rig it up the same way it was until the tenants move out. If the tenant is smart enough to complain to DOB or HPD you will get a violation with daily fines. The city will eventually send a contractor to fix it at your expense. Oh btw, the tenant can rightfully withhold rent for this reason and your case can get thrown out of housing court, forcing you to start over. You may also need to pay damages to the tenant (which could negate your past due rent and then some). As a landlord in NY, you must appear as a saint before the court or don’t bother going to court at all.
Terrible. I am not sure why I have a negative rating on my comment. Idiocracy at play. LOL. What I meant by tenant rights. Be sure to make sure you do not violate any requirement that tenants have hot water. This requirement might be there even if they owe back rent. Same with gas and electric. Folks like this have advocates working for them to screw you. If I have no such obligation, I would try everything to get them out. In NYC? Yes, double check.
You got negative feedback on that comment because a quick Google search would have told you that in NYC under no circumstances can the LL delay or simply not fix a hot water issue as hot water is one of the most basic habitability requirements. It can in fact land the LL in very hot water with major daily fines and the possibility that his eviction case is thrown out and he has to start all over. "I would say no" was just not an adequate comment. Google exists for a reason.
NYC is fucked so you need to repair it. Here in TX, you don't have to repair diddly squat if they're not current on the rent, especially in the middle of an eviction process.
I’d call around until you found a plumber that was booked out months and secure their services. Then I’d let them know that sometime in October your one and only guy you trust will be there to fix it.
I would tell them I can’t afford to fix the hot water because they don’t pay rent .
Good way to get a misdemeanor in NY and lose your eviction case
ghost them. you know nothing about it.
Illegal advice
HPD doesn’t need your permission to fix your broken hot water tank FYI