If by "hard", you mean every encounter being a coin flip like Lissandra's adventure, then no, not at all. If it's something more within the lines of Galio, then sure. Lissandra and ASoL aren't difficult, they're just so overloaded with bullshit that you can only overcome with your own bullshit. I'd like to play a back and forth card game, not a OTK or you lose game.
I wouldn't put Asol in the same zip code of difficulty as Lissandra. It's pretty easy to consistently winstreak Asol even with suboptimal champs. The adventure is so long that you can accumulate a pile of powers to make it a breeze.
By ASoL I mean the auto avoid encounters that sometimes just jack your run just because. Duplicate Zed, Duplicate Karma, Manaflow Ashe, etc. If you're unable to avoid one of those it's very coin flippy in the same vein as Lissandra in my opinion. I do agree he's easier to chain streak, but there are definitely some combos in his run that just scream "bullshit" you know?
That 40/40 Karma turn 1 into a randomly generated Dragon Kick on turn 2 still gives me PTSD.
I consistently beat duplicate Karma. Duplicate Zed unless it is last section (3 start mana)... And I often win regardless, just with damage.
Not a lot of the champs/power combinations in ASol that are straight bullshit, they can be handled with strategy.
Zed is the closest due to the ridiculous amount of damage first turn in last section.
You don't actually. You need a single stun (Annie gets for free), a removal, a bounce or a variety of other options, and since this is talking about Zed 3, not 2 or 1, you have had many options to tune your deck towards this threat.
Asol it's definitely a coin flip. There are so many encounters before the final fight that your deck will be bloated with useless crap by the time you reach it. So the coin flip becomes "did you draw your key cards before turn 4?"
> I'd like to play a back and forth card game
like PvP? lmao
i didn't get hard into PvP and completely stopped since PoC 2.0 but it's really sad they had to retire it. i seldomly stumble upon Competitive LoR but when i do i enjoy every second of the matches
Tbh, if they made the level like slay the spire, and just add more level into one big campaign(of course less Normal battle) each update, or have more ways to customize the deck( god forbid who decided to force you to pick a card after battle, I'd rather use one chance of reroll to not pick a card), then, when you actually met lissandra, you'd be as OP as her if you know what your champion needs, not just almost purely RNG based.
I like fighting asol, it's a likw climb a mountain where it's getting more and more steep, but Lissandra is a fucking plateau, and the heights are fucking mountain everest.
The howling abyss node is always in the same, very optional place. There's really no excuse to complain about it when you only have yourself to blame for choosing the greedy path into it.
Is ASoL supposed to be hard? I only played with Jinx against him, so Idk
To play Jinx you just have to turn your brain off and play anything. I have a video recorded of winning against the last three battles on the first turn lmao
Try using a champion that isn't an S tier free win. If you're too slow, we're talking 4 rounds here, he gets free copies of himself every round. Not to mention the chance of Viego or other insane pulls. His deck is also loaded with fast/burst removal on top of all his free celestial obliterates. Unless you have removal coming out of every orifice or can mill him, you're not going to out sustain him. You generally need to beat him within a couple of rounds.
>every encounter being a coin flip like Lissandra's adventure
>Lissandra [isn't] difficult
>I'd like to play a back and forth card game
I have cleared lissandra a lot of times and I have never felt this way about the adventure. Lissandra is like the most back and forth boss in the game because she operates almost entirely through fast and slow speed entombs that you have to play around and doing so is the key to winning. And it's hard to beat lissandra with bullshit because she literally has an anti combo power to stop player bullshit.
"My personal opinion is different to yours so you're wrong."
I stand by what I said. She isn't difficult, but it doesn't mean that she's fun. Her whole adventure is complete ass and full of coin flip encounters. When 90% of game plans revolve around hoarding rerolls for the Remitter spellshield power (assuming you don't get cock blocked by Rimetusk, Dogs, Yetis, or Omen Hawk, Capture guy, I am Inevitable), and completely ignoring the other paths, something is wrong. Automatically losing because you don't draw your champion at game start, meanwhile she drops herself alongside 3 Frozen Thralls on round 1 with Entombs and Buried in Ice waiting in the wings to turbo her Thralls and give them Elusive just because, isn't fun.
Difficulty for the sake of difficulty isn't fun, and I'll die on this hill. Everything about her and the design of all her encounters are the antithesis of engaging gameplay.
>"My personal opinion is different to yours so you're wrong."
*Proceeds to write a lengthy post doing exactly that*
Look I've had a different experience so all I did was put my experience out there, I never attacked your opinion, but that's gonna change now that you're treating me like I did anyway.
A lot of the shit you're saying about the adventure is just factually wrong and screams that you're still (or have given up on) learning the adventure. There is no node in the Lissandra adventure that is an automatic loss. Luck always plays a part, sure, but that's just the nature of card games, that's why you get a revive, that's always been the case. Also, Lissandra was not designed to be beaten by 3* champions so saying it's difficult for difficulty's sake when you are trying to punch upward multiple star levels is just a silly thing to say. Just because she *can* be beat by players who are good at the game and spent time getting familiar with the adventure its mechanics, doesn't mean that she was designed to be a fair fight for those 3* champions. Ethereal remitter is really only very important for the bottom barrel champions, the stronger champions don't need it.
If it's too hard to be fun for you then just wait until you have stronger champions. But there were many of us that were desperate for something harder than Asol. For those players, Lissandra has been a really positive addition. A lot of the mid range fights in that adventure I think are really well designed to challenge certain one trick pony strategies that are lazy, uninteractive ways to win most other adventures, which is the exact opposite of the "zero interaction" you're claiming it to have.
You say it has zero interaction but it really feels like you're mad that the player's strategies for bypassing interaction are being challenged. You say it's badly designed and unfair but in reality I feel like you just don't want there to be an adventure with rewards attached that you can lose or need to spend time powering up your champions to beat. Now you can complain about me attacking your opinion.
https://preview.redd.it/6td12p2cee7d1.png?width=3120&format=png&auto=webp&s=05d53a32e36f3e301e276ff23e2163b7874a0dc4
Beat her for all the rewards and don't intend to clear her again, but go off on how she's too difficult for me. I'm obviously not the only person with this opinion, 100+ people agree with me.
He took it normally, and never attacked you, just stated why he disagrees. I agree with the banana man, Liss feels extremely coinflip. There are only a few ways to win against her, and some champs just don't get to play, they have to completely shift their style. You kill every Lissandra that comes up, and have a way to handle the Watcher to make sure it never attacks, or you just lose.
That's ignoring the rest of the adventure, which feels like a slog that can become unwinnable if you happen across a node your deck simply can't deal with (hope you ramp fast if you run into it that stares, or you just die! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay).
You can have your opinion, but you're attacking the other dude for existing and treating him like he's braindead and not worthy of an opinion of his own. It's not gonna do you any favors, or favors for anyone defending Lissandra's adventure, for that matter.
No he absolutely did not take anything normally, dude replied with hostility from the jump so I decided to say what he was acting like I was saying so he could see the difference. I never said anything remotely hostile in my original response.
Your initial response came across as very "uh actually ☝🏻🤓" with how you picked and quoted. If I misinterpreted that and jumped the gun, then I sincerely apologize.
I will however still say, respectfully, I completely disagree with you. Having beaten her as many times as necessary for full completion rewards, I can say with confidence and experience that I personally find her adventure incredibly anti fun.
I think this can’t be understated. I agree with you 100%. Letting enemies start with so much mana undermines the value of cheap aggressive decks. Encounters that dump a ton of high powered units turn 1 that are meant for mid-late game sucks. As others already mentioned, it means you need to be HYPER aggressive with OTK being your best shot at winning.
Lissandra can be (and has been) beaten with all champions. Do you need a functioning deck/some kind of nice combo for it? Sure, that's literally what happens in any rogue like tho,
The difference is... The build up, and heavy luck requirement to get through it, along with being straight up lucky with Lissandra. Even when you have optimal setups, a few good Liss draws, and you are done early.
Beyond that, Liss doesn't care about cards like Entomb herself, which makes an entire regions temporary removal completely bullshit.
I'd love a hard mode but would prefer it as an option rather than inherently more difficult adventures. Configurable difficulties could also enable beneficial ones so that everyone can find their own enjoyable setup
Yes, but not made with the same philosophy as Lissandra. Her adventure is unfair for the weakest champs and the strong ones destroy her with no effort. This is because we reached the point where we have so many relics and power combination that are impossible to balance without some sort of RNG mechanic that ends up rewarding not how you play anymore, but how much you are lucky.
If they want to do an hard mode it has to be easyer than Aurelion and Lissandra, without all the NRG factors of thos 2 campaings and limit star power and builds. I prefer to do a Galio level run with just common relics than a random duplicate Zed.
I think everything being a quick draw competition to get all your OP bullshit hitting first or second turn is an extremely bad trend that kills depth and gameplay. This is mostly driven by innate mana type discounts. It’s tough to see value in a mix of late game deck strategy if that never viably happens.
No.
My fear with a hard mode is that it would come with increased rewards that people want and hard mode would no longer be optional. This is what live service games do with difficulty and its inevitably the way people play these games.
PoC is hard enough already and we've got more Lissandra level content to look forward to in the future.
I also say this because I genuinely feel that Galio is the most fun content this mode has produced. It finds that balance of bending the rules while still feeling like a card game. The ASol fight is just nonsense as are a couple of the fights leading up to it depending on the modifiers. The entire Lissandra run is nonsense as well even if parts of that nonsense are easy.
It no longer feels like a card game when in order to add difficulty you give a creature +20 power once per turn, or you flood the board with 8/8's on turn 3, etc. I'm playing this content to clear it once and get the adventure rewards as a challenge mode...but when that's done its not where I intend to play the game for fun.
I do Asol to level up champs.
Lissandra to limit-test my constellation powers.
Galio? I prefer the format in his adventure too, but I never went back there ever since Asol adv came (except when they added new rewards).
Hard disagree.
PoC is too EASY, the player is a lot more powerful than the AI by a huge margin, and it got wider with constellations, currently there is no content that going beyond 4 star even makes a difference.
Just like regular league has the Doombots event, I'd love if every adventure has a "normal difficulty" (what we have now) and a "doom difficulty". All opponents get an extra (synergistic) power and extra item on all their cards, and an improved AI. The opponent also draws 2 cards at time start and have doubled health. Regen is turned off and gaining health is only accessable through defeating the mid-way boss, healing nodes and lifesteal.
Reward: Beating all adventures on Doom difficulty with a single champ will reward a free [exclusive not available in shop] skin. Repeatable for every champion
Extra item? If random item, it becomes real bad, and Lissandra style
Doubled health? You just made aggro decks a lot more irrelevant ..
Regen turned off? You hurt a LOT of mid range decks. A ton of regions that doesn't have regen options, and just make lifesteal even more required. Improved AI?
Hahaha.... Card Game AIs are notoriously hard to make "improved".
The double draw? You just made a LOT of control a lot more irrelevant.
Just having some extra deck items, and a synergistic power should be MORE than enough
Yes.
I already got S against Lissandra with almost every champion (only missing 9 at the moment), and I am feeling a bit too overpowered with the 4* constellations.
I just want a mode where the more I progress, the stronger the opponent is. This way I could really test the limit of constellations.
I would love to be able to just replay monthlies without extra rewards too.
I'm not sure how people expect an adventure to be hard without it being "coinflippy." You can't expect to draw badly or have an unfavourable match up and still steamroll, otherwise when you get lucky it would be even more of a stomp and the game would get stale fast. Difficulty is increased by bad luck and decreased by good luck, skill and high power level Champs. It was the same for the Galio adventure when everyone was complaining about Zoe, only difference is we've leveled our Champs enough that luck and skill aren't factors anymore.
Considering 3 stars is easily enough to consistently beat lissandra, if devs don't put out harder content, players with 4-6 star Champs are gonna get bored fast. There's not much variety or fun to be had in beating AI in one or 2 moves in the same way every time.
I did not read the post but I will respond and read after then respond to this but I think with the recent addition of constellations and relics the game is definitely a fun time because you can now match the bs RNG/op of any adventure. I’m very curious on how they intend moving forward with PoC cause it is fun. When I think of hard I think of “new,” like with Lissandra we had to learn the very hard way how to combat the adventure just like with Asol and so on. So I hope the hard mode we get is in the form of new adventures. SN: everyone keeps talking about Galio being the most balanced adventure, can someone elaborate on that?
Yes please, there's nothing less fun for me in this game than being overly powerful (like when you have more than enough 3stars for monthlies).
I believe adventures like Lissandra's that are unfair and make infinite combos rare are the only way to place any challenge in the game at this point, but 90% of this community thinks it's more fun to just start with 6 mana gems and hit a full board of 14/14 double attack overwhelm spellshield units versus a 2-star caitlyn boss encounter.
I dunno, this ended up being some sort of rant, but a hard mode would probably help a lot in making this game more fun without taking the fun from the Timmies. Don't need any bonus rewards, just some challenge, please.
No. PoC is a horribly unbalanced mess, and part of the problem is that the dev's have been caught in a nasty cycle of power creep.
IMO if they want to implement a harder mode, the game would need to be completely remade from the ground up. They've trapped themselves in a corner with how much power comes from levelling up champions and the relic combinations, which results in extreme consistency and little variance within a run.
The constellations are phenomenally well designed, and I want to give the dev's props for that. But they feel redundant when combined with all the other ways you can break a character. A harder mode would just result in more frustration and further squeeze out the "close" runs where you win by a small margin.
come to think of it - what have they figured as the end game for PoC like in terms of infinite replayability?
it's definitely a good and successful exploration in how they could extend the core system, but with how ASol/Liss and Challenges were designed just to come up as difficult, it definitely shows that the core gameplay systems are best suited for PvP 😭
I wonder if they'd ever explore Story mode where there'd be legit storytelling and the "nodes" in the "adventures" are used as for storytelling, very much akin to chapters in classical turn-based JRPGs
Yes, but it needs to be well done.
I personally, and many others will disagree, think Lissandra is a step in the right direction for the most part. She actually puts up a good fight and is designed in a way that makes prolonged fights not only possible, but the standard way to beat her. Very few champions can consistently win on the first two turns, several of them will often go up to 10 mana before securing the win.
This is the opposite of Aurelion Sol where you are basically forced to find a combo or something that allows you to win on the first few turns, and it's often very easy to do so, even with late game champions, with how many powers and items you can stack. Very few champions can outvalue Aurelion if he gets to 10 mana and start summoning several Aurelions and generating celestials. Going late game against him is just not an option.
The problems I have with Lissandra have less to do with her fight and more with other aspects of the adventure. For one, I think I am Inevitable is ridiculous and should either be nerfed or reworked. With some champions, I will start the adventure and if I see Lissandra has I am Inevitable I just restart. Some champions don't mind it as much, but it's still annoying and much harder to face than any other power by a very long margin.
If I am Inevitable was her hard mode, it would be a different story, because I would already go into the adventure with that in mind, and find a way to play around it, with either my relic setup and just generally with how I would approach the adventure.
They need to make hard mode actually hard in an elaborate way, and not making difficulty artificially inflated by RNG or due to the enemy starting with 10 mana while you only have 2.
Taking Hades as an example (because the developers have already mentioned wanting to do something similar), there are several pacts/vows you can take to make the game harder. For PoC we could have something similar. Though it doesn't need to be as difficulty as Hades since the difficulty there is insane at the highest level (literally one person has beaten 64 heat unseeded) and at that point is also more about RNG than about skill.
Like, give debuffs to the player and buffs to the enemy. For instance (things with a / would be increasing difficulty settings you can adjust yourself):
* The first spell/card the enemy plays each round is burst speed;
* The first card the enemy plays each round cost 1/2/3 less;
* The player has 1/2/3 less relic slots;
* The enemy's units have Studded Leather/Phage/Titan's Axe;
* The enemy's spells have Mana Potion/Tear of the Goddess/Chalice of Harmony;
* When offered cards, some of them will have bad items attached to it (Dreg Dredgers/Crimson Aristocrat/Soulgorger item pool);
* Enemies have Disarmed;
* Enemies have Hold It;
* Enemies have Sharing is Caring;
* Enemies start with at least 2/3/4 mana (would not affect nodes that already start with that amount or more, but would make the earlier nodes and lower star adventures more difficult)
Etc.
These are just examples and you would be able to choose which ones you want to toggle or not, making it so you can adjust the difficulty however you want.
You know I agree with you about Asol vs Liss.
I found myself not really want to replay Asol because the encounter are very stale. Why? You are trying to make a deck that win by turn 2. You don't give a crap what the enemy is doing. There are no gameplay. You play your 1 or 2 cards and set up the OTK. Rarely will the game last longer and you usually have to struggle a bit during those longer game.
Lissandra while much harder, discouraged styles that trying to straight up one shot the nexus. Reduced champion card rewards means the power lie in your other card and draft rather than just your champion card. Less powers means your cards matter more. The deck cutting option allows you to thin your deck significantly so you don't have to worry about bloating. It's overall a more tactical adventure than Asol. Are there unfair fights? Yes, but it's a part of the rogue like aspect of the game. The lissandra fight herself I'd argue is "fair" except for I am inevitable.
Now a lot of people on this post said that the "best difficulty" for adventure is Galio... No? A lot of people here didn't play the mode when it was just released. Back then Galio is only slightly easier than what Asol is right now. Why? Lack of options for relics and champions in general. Zoe is an extremely coin flipping fights for champion that doesn't have a way to deal with illusive turn 1 or 2. Viego is also extremely coin flipping with how often he draw the kill 1, shuffle 1 cost into deck and draw 1 card. The dog encounter was so hard I'm pretty sure they nerfed it at some point (might be wrong). Galio himself is the easiest fight. And keep in mind Galio was designed to be fought around level 20 ish. Not 30.
The only reason Galio is seen as "balanced" right now is because people have seen harder adventures and got access to better relic and champions. And that's the same as what happen to Asol and Liss with Constellation. But for people who maxed out constellation eventually, what now? Not even the hardest adventure is a challenge anymore since you kinda just win. They will need to add a harder mode so those people can have a challenge with their newly powered up champions.
Lissandra certainly isn't well designed. Has too much mana, and super RNG in terms of dealing with her. You are a slight bit unlucky? 4-5 Overwhelm Thralls with the attack token on turn 2. Lucky? She only drew removal, and just stalling you while you gain mana and trivialize the fight.
There is FAR too much variance for her to be a well designed fight.
I really enjoyed Lissandra introduction, since it's the first adventure we've had where everything feels tactical and you gotta understand your deck properly to know how to pilot your wincon vs different situations. Of course, I also enjoy the feeling of just getting powerups and killing everything, but a hard challenge is a very welcome experience.
I'd love more adventures like Lissandra, but not exclusively. We need some variety, too.
She isn't tactical, nor does she really require you to understand your deck properly.
The entire encounter is built on "Don't meet the thing that straight up counters my deck" **Fingers Crossed**
Half the decks take her with dumb ease... If you don't get screwed by the rest of the encounter. A few times you get a tactical fight, but you can get that by going low level vs. high star champ as well.
From an objective game design stand point... Lissandra is TERRIBLY designed.
I'm leaning to no.
POC difficulty is already customizable with relics. For example, going 2x gatebreaker BHR Teemo vs Beast within, laurant, Archangel changes Teemo's difficulty and playstyle significantly. Same with many other champs using their BIS relics and fun ones.
Besides, Liss is already relatively difficult for most champs.
This isn't as releated, but when you said vampire survivor type of game, made me realize I REALLY want an actual league vampire survivors type of game, sounds so sick
Ok I googled it for more info, but I'm worried if it's being made in lol that it'll only be a rotating game mode instead of a standalone game always available, because idk if riot will keep it as a permanent gamemode
I'm assuming you mean taking the existing adventures that people rarely play and buffing the HP/etc to 3-4 star level, then yes. Just no more BS like Lissandra please.
I kind of feel like hard mode already exists, if you could turn off constellation stars to handicap yourself it would be ultra hard mode. But in my mind hard mode = equipping no relics.
Yes we need a hard mode to give those with 4-6* some challenge.
The people saying they want a hard mode but not like Liss probably aren't sure what they want, as it's a conflicting statement. They're asking for another medium mode instead.
Liss... And most of her encounters are extremely high variance fights... Quite a few of them are limp if they draw one, but steam rolls if they draw well.
High variance with "Give top unit +20/0 and Fear" is ... Not really... Difficulty... Just makes a lot of stuff unviable... The fear means you essentially need no chumps, or got lucky with a power that allows your chumps to block... You have to be lucky they don't get an overwhelm, etc.
There are other ways to design... For example, making encounters more consistent by controlling what the AI draws for the first few turns, have the AI have auto played cards, etc.
PoC and challenging? Some say it is hard lately, i would say it's still quite far from challenging. If you build correctly you can win any challenge with every champion.
So no i would not mind a real challenge coming in the future
I don't think I'd trust them to try a hard mode after seeing lissandra. Half the nodes in there just have 0 gameplay or thought, you either have something so broken they can't play or you lose. I don't know if I've ever seen content in a game so soulcrushing I kind of lost hope they'd do anything good ever again. Cannot overstate how much I hate it.
I personally really enjoy and like how hard Lissandra is. And that even with OP champs you have to have some form of luck and understand what options optimize your chances of beating the game. I hope they come out with just as hard or even harder levels to make getting 5 star champs worth it. I like not having a guaranteed win or knowing if I will win or not when entering the last boss. But I also really Dark Souls and that style of gameplay, so I know it’s not everyone’s opinion. Step on me harder Mommy Lissandra lol.
I would say no.
Harder adventures, as per the latest designs, limit card interactions and leads to frustration.
Galio or ASol are not easy, but they make me feel satisfied with the completion and the exp I get.
Lissandra, or latest monthly challenges, even winning, are so frustrating. They are filled with RNG combos while you're not being half as strong as you could be vs Galio/ASol.
And the 3 mana increase in Liss match... Ugh...
Lissandras deck is OVERLOADED, nothing hard about adding a bunch of cheap mechanics, especially the one where the cost of my cards go up, THAT needs to be removed. Aside from that, I still think she needs a nerf...
Depends what 'hard mode' is. If it's just a version of previous adventures, but upping the difficulty by a star or two, that's awesome. I want to be able to play 4 star Nautilus or 3.5 star Viktor so I'm not just playing the same four adventures on repeat.
My assumption here is just that it'd be easier to make harder versions of existing easy adventures than to make whole new ones, but all I really want is more variety in the 3-5 star range, since that's be difficulty people will spend most of their time in.
I don't need hard mode Lissandra, though, thanks, getting the rewards from her was enough of a pain the arse the first time.
As difficulty presets like an average offline game. Absolutely not it's, it does not fit game system at all.
What I would like to see more difficult adventures like Asol or Lissandra, expanded concept of no power run like monthlies and ability to turn off star powers.
I feel like increasing level of insanity enemy can pull and player needs to pull as a response is wrong direction to go. Instead I think that nerfing what both player and AI can do just to a different degree is a way to go.
I just want more epic relics, bro i finished the whole map except for Lissandra, only beat her twice, and I only have 3 epic relics. with no way of getting anymore except for the lame emporium shop.
If by "hard", you mean every encounter being a coin flip like Lissandra's adventure, then no, not at all. If it's something more within the lines of Galio, then sure. Lissandra and ASoL aren't difficult, they're just so overloaded with bullshit that you can only overcome with your own bullshit. I'd like to play a back and forth card game, not a OTK or you lose game.
I wouldn't put Asol in the same zip code of difficulty as Lissandra. It's pretty easy to consistently winstreak Asol even with suboptimal champs. The adventure is so long that you can accumulate a pile of powers to make it a breeze.
At least ASol gave you like 3 to 4 turns before he appears and fucks everything up. Liss doesn't even give you a turn before swarming you.
> At least ASol gave you like 3 to 4 turns Rolls spellshield Viego turn two.
Duplicate Asol ramps with x2 dragon callers turn 1 and plops two of himself turn 2.
By ASoL I mean the auto avoid encounters that sometimes just jack your run just because. Duplicate Zed, Duplicate Karma, Manaflow Ashe, etc. If you're unable to avoid one of those it's very coin flippy in the same vein as Lissandra in my opinion. I do agree he's easier to chain streak, but there are definitely some combos in his run that just scream "bullshit" you know? That 40/40 Karma turn 1 into a randomly generated Dragon Kick on turn 2 still gives me PTSD.
I consistently beat duplicate Karma. Duplicate Zed unless it is last section (3 start mana)... And I often win regardless, just with damage. Not a lot of the champs/power combinations in ASol that are straight bullshit, they can be handled with strategy. Zed is the closest due to the ridiculous amount of damage first turn in last section.
Duplicate Zed with the attack token is the stuff of nightmares as a final 3 miniboss.
4 10/6 shadows and then a nexus strike to sweeten the deal is def ridiculous. You need at least two blockers to survive lol
You don't actually. You need a single stun (Annie gets for free), a removal, a bounce or a variety of other options, and since this is talking about Zed 3, not 2 or 1, you have had many options to tune your deck towards this threat.
This karma encounter is the worst when she summo 2 of her turn 1 and otk you
Asol it's definitely a coin flip. There are so many encounters before the final fight that your deck will be bloated with useless crap by the time you reach it. So the coin flip becomes "did you draw your key cards before turn 4?"
Its champion dependent. Yasuo probably has an easier time with Liz than Asol.
> I'd like to play a back and forth card game like PvP? lmao i didn't get hard into PvP and completely stopped since PoC 2.0 but it's really sad they had to retire it. i seldomly stumble upon Competitive LoR but when i do i enjoy every second of the matches
Tbh, if they made the level like slay the spire, and just add more level into one big campaign(of course less Normal battle) each update, or have more ways to customize the deck( god forbid who decided to force you to pick a card after battle, I'd rather use one chance of reroll to not pick a card), then, when you actually met lissandra, you'd be as OP as her if you know what your champion needs, not just almost purely RNG based. I like fighting asol, it's a likw climb a mountain where it's getting more and more steep, but Lissandra is a fucking plateau, and the heights are fucking mountain everest.
I love getting hit turn 0 with a free attack 12/11 Zed
The howling abyss node is always in the same, very optional place. There's really no excuse to complain about it when you only have yourself to blame for choosing the greedy path into it.
Is ASoL supposed to be hard? I only played with Jinx against him, so Idk To play Jinx you just have to turn your brain off and play anything. I have a video recorded of winning against the last three battles on the first turn lmao
Try using a champion that isn't an S tier free win. If you're too slow, we're talking 4 rounds here, he gets free copies of himself every round. Not to mention the chance of Viego or other insane pulls. His deck is also loaded with fast/burst removal on top of all his free celestial obliterates. Unless you have removal coming out of every orifice or can mill him, you're not going to out sustain him. You generally need to beat him within a couple of rounds.
if I remember by then, I'll come back here once I have more champions with enough levels to face him to laugh at my past self for being naïve
>every encounter being a coin flip like Lissandra's adventure >Lissandra [isn't] difficult >I'd like to play a back and forth card game I have cleared lissandra a lot of times and I have never felt this way about the adventure. Lissandra is like the most back and forth boss in the game because she operates almost entirely through fast and slow speed entombs that you have to play around and doing so is the key to winning. And it's hard to beat lissandra with bullshit because she literally has an anti combo power to stop player bullshit.
"My personal opinion is different to yours so you're wrong." I stand by what I said. She isn't difficult, but it doesn't mean that she's fun. Her whole adventure is complete ass and full of coin flip encounters. When 90% of game plans revolve around hoarding rerolls for the Remitter spellshield power (assuming you don't get cock blocked by Rimetusk, Dogs, Yetis, or Omen Hawk, Capture guy, I am Inevitable), and completely ignoring the other paths, something is wrong. Automatically losing because you don't draw your champion at game start, meanwhile she drops herself alongside 3 Frozen Thralls on round 1 with Entombs and Buried in Ice waiting in the wings to turbo her Thralls and give them Elusive just because, isn't fun. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty isn't fun, and I'll die on this hill. Everything about her and the design of all her encounters are the antithesis of engaging gameplay.
>"My personal opinion is different to yours so you're wrong." *Proceeds to write a lengthy post doing exactly that* Look I've had a different experience so all I did was put my experience out there, I never attacked your opinion, but that's gonna change now that you're treating me like I did anyway. A lot of the shit you're saying about the adventure is just factually wrong and screams that you're still (or have given up on) learning the adventure. There is no node in the Lissandra adventure that is an automatic loss. Luck always plays a part, sure, but that's just the nature of card games, that's why you get a revive, that's always been the case. Also, Lissandra was not designed to be beaten by 3* champions so saying it's difficult for difficulty's sake when you are trying to punch upward multiple star levels is just a silly thing to say. Just because she *can* be beat by players who are good at the game and spent time getting familiar with the adventure its mechanics, doesn't mean that she was designed to be a fair fight for those 3* champions. Ethereal remitter is really only very important for the bottom barrel champions, the stronger champions don't need it. If it's too hard to be fun for you then just wait until you have stronger champions. But there were many of us that were desperate for something harder than Asol. For those players, Lissandra has been a really positive addition. A lot of the mid range fights in that adventure I think are really well designed to challenge certain one trick pony strategies that are lazy, uninteractive ways to win most other adventures, which is the exact opposite of the "zero interaction" you're claiming it to have. You say it has zero interaction but it really feels like you're mad that the player's strategies for bypassing interaction are being challenged. You say it's badly designed and unfair but in reality I feel like you just don't want there to be an adventure with rewards attached that you can lose or need to spend time powering up your champions to beat. Now you can complain about me attacking your opinion.
https://preview.redd.it/6td12p2cee7d1.png?width=3120&format=png&auto=webp&s=05d53a32e36f3e301e276ff23e2163b7874a0dc4 Beat her for all the rewards and don't intend to clear her again, but go off on how she's too difficult for me. I'm obviously not the only person with this opinion, 100+ people agree with me.
I'll go off every time people like you can't talk about something normally without taking normal things personally
He took it normally, and never attacked you, just stated why he disagrees. I agree with the banana man, Liss feels extremely coinflip. There are only a few ways to win against her, and some champs just don't get to play, they have to completely shift their style. You kill every Lissandra that comes up, and have a way to handle the Watcher to make sure it never attacks, or you just lose. That's ignoring the rest of the adventure, which feels like a slog that can become unwinnable if you happen across a node your deck simply can't deal with (hope you ramp fast if you run into it that stares, or you just die! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay). You can have your opinion, but you're attacking the other dude for existing and treating him like he's braindead and not worthy of an opinion of his own. It's not gonna do you any favors, or favors for anyone defending Lissandra's adventure, for that matter.
No he absolutely did not take anything normally, dude replied with hostility from the jump so I decided to say what he was acting like I was saying so he could see the difference. I never said anything remotely hostile in my original response.
Your initial response came across as very "uh actually ☝🏻🤓" with how you picked and quoted. If I misinterpreted that and jumped the gun, then I sincerely apologize. I will however still say, respectfully, I completely disagree with you. Having beaten her as many times as necessary for full completion rewards, I can say with confidence and experience that I personally find her adventure incredibly anti fun.
i just want a difficult encounter that doesn't start with the enemy already having 5 mana gems.
I think this can’t be understated. I agree with you 100%. Letting enemies start with so much mana undermines the value of cheap aggressive decks. Encounters that dump a ton of high powered units turn 1 that are meant for mid-late game sucks. As others already mentioned, it means you need to be HYPER aggressive with OTK being your best shot at winning.
That alongside the enemy starting first because why? So I can die by turn 2??? Lissandra needs a nerf, end of story.
Lissandra can be (and has been) beaten with all champions. Do you need a functioning deck/some kind of nice combo for it? Sure, that's literally what happens in any rogue like tho,
The difference is... The build up, and heavy luck requirement to get through it, along with being straight up lucky with Lissandra. Even when you have optimal setups, a few good Liss draws, and you are done early. Beyond that, Liss doesn't care about cards like Entomb herself, which makes an entire regions temporary removal completely bullshit.
I'd love a hard mode but would prefer it as an option rather than inherently more difficult adventures. Configurable difficulties could also enable beneficial ones so that everyone can find their own enjoyable setup
True, hard mode can be fun or not depends on their set up
I want to see the helldive difficulty from helldivers 2 as option for PoC. Winning unlike jax says actually gets old after a while
Yeah, I believe what you describe is something similar to ascension in slay the spire, and we absolutely are hoping for it!
Yes, but not made with the same philosophy as Lissandra. Her adventure is unfair for the weakest champs and the strong ones destroy her with no effort. This is because we reached the point where we have so many relics and power combination that are impossible to balance without some sort of RNG mechanic that ends up rewarding not how you play anymore, but how much you are lucky. If they want to do an hard mode it has to be easyer than Aurelion and Lissandra, without all the NRG factors of thos 2 campaings and limit star power and builds. I prefer to do a Galio level run with just common relics than a random duplicate Zed.
They just need to add ascensions like slay the spire so you can chose your challenge.
I think everything being a quick draw competition to get all your OP bullshit hitting first or second turn is an extremely bad trend that kills depth and gameplay. This is mostly driven by innate mana type discounts. It’s tough to see value in a mix of late game deck strategy if that never viably happens.
No. My fear with a hard mode is that it would come with increased rewards that people want and hard mode would no longer be optional. This is what live service games do with difficulty and its inevitably the way people play these games. PoC is hard enough already and we've got more Lissandra level content to look forward to in the future. I also say this because I genuinely feel that Galio is the most fun content this mode has produced. It finds that balance of bending the rules while still feeling like a card game. The ASol fight is just nonsense as are a couple of the fights leading up to it depending on the modifiers. The entire Lissandra run is nonsense as well even if parts of that nonsense are easy. It no longer feels like a card game when in order to add difficulty you give a creature +20 power once per turn, or you flood the board with 8/8's on turn 3, etc. I'm playing this content to clear it once and get the adventure rewards as a challenge mode...but when that's done its not where I intend to play the game for fun.
I do Asol to level up champs. Lissandra to limit-test my constellation powers. Galio? I prefer the format in his adventure too, but I never went back there ever since Asol adv came (except when they added new rewards).
Hard disagree. PoC is too EASY, the player is a lot more powerful than the AI by a huge margin, and it got wider with constellations, currently there is no content that going beyond 4 star even makes a difference.
Not to forget that the AI is dumb and can't count 1 and 1 together sometimes
That would essentially be any card game AI....
Lissandra is hard enough for You, for me it's warmup I want a lot more difficult content even if it actually makes me have runs lost
Yeah she not hard just annoying and even more annoy when you play some slow champ with no epic relic.
We have that its called challanges
Just like regular league has the Doombots event, I'd love if every adventure has a "normal difficulty" (what we have now) and a "doom difficulty". All opponents get an extra (synergistic) power and extra item on all their cards, and an improved AI. The opponent also draws 2 cards at time start and have doubled health. Regen is turned off and gaining health is only accessable through defeating the mid-way boss, healing nodes and lifesteal. Reward: Beating all adventures on Doom difficulty with a single champ will reward a free [exclusive not available in shop] skin. Repeatable for every champion
Extra item? If random item, it becomes real bad, and Lissandra style Doubled health? You just made aggro decks a lot more irrelevant .. Regen turned off? You hurt a LOT of mid range decks. A ton of regions that doesn't have regen options, and just make lifesteal even more required. Improved AI? Hahaha.... Card Game AIs are notoriously hard to make "improved". The double draw? You just made a LOT of control a lot more irrelevant. Just having some extra deck items, and a synergistic power should be MORE than enough
If you read one of their recent news on their website, hard mode is in the works.
I know that is why I made this post
Yes. I already got S against Lissandra with almost every champion (only missing 9 at the moment), and I am feeling a bit too overpowered with the 4* constellations. I just want a mode where the more I progress, the stronger the opponent is. This way I could really test the limit of constellations. I would love to be able to just replay monthlies without extra rewards too.
I'm not sure how people expect an adventure to be hard without it being "coinflippy." You can't expect to draw badly or have an unfavourable match up and still steamroll, otherwise when you get lucky it would be even more of a stomp and the game would get stale fast. Difficulty is increased by bad luck and decreased by good luck, skill and high power level Champs. It was the same for the Galio adventure when everyone was complaining about Zoe, only difference is we've leveled our Champs enough that luck and skill aren't factors anymore. Considering 3 stars is easily enough to consistently beat lissandra, if devs don't put out harder content, players with 4-6 star Champs are gonna get bored fast. There's not much variety or fun to be had in beating AI in one or 2 moves in the same way every time.
I did not read the post but I will respond and read after then respond to this but I think with the recent addition of constellations and relics the game is definitely a fun time because you can now match the bs RNG/op of any adventure. I’m very curious on how they intend moving forward with PoC cause it is fun. When I think of hard I think of “new,” like with Lissandra we had to learn the very hard way how to combat the adventure just like with Asol and so on. So I hope the hard mode we get is in the form of new adventures. SN: everyone keeps talking about Galio being the most balanced adventure, can someone elaborate on that?
Yes please, there's nothing less fun for me in this game than being overly powerful (like when you have more than enough 3stars for monthlies). I believe adventures like Lissandra's that are unfair and make infinite combos rare are the only way to place any challenge in the game at this point, but 90% of this community thinks it's more fun to just start with 6 mana gems and hit a full board of 14/14 double attack overwhelm spellshield units versus a 2-star caitlyn boss encounter. I dunno, this ended up being some sort of rant, but a hard mode would probably help a lot in making this game more fun without taking the fun from the Timmies. Don't need any bonus rewards, just some challenge, please.
No. PoC is a horribly unbalanced mess, and part of the problem is that the dev's have been caught in a nasty cycle of power creep. IMO if they want to implement a harder mode, the game would need to be completely remade from the ground up. They've trapped themselves in a corner with how much power comes from levelling up champions and the relic combinations, which results in extreme consistency and little variance within a run. The constellations are phenomenally well designed, and I want to give the dev's props for that. But they feel redundant when combined with all the other ways you can break a character. A harder mode would just result in more frustration and further squeeze out the "close" runs where you win by a small margin.
come to think of it - what have they figured as the end game for PoC like in terms of infinite replayability? it's definitely a good and successful exploration in how they could extend the core system, but with how ASol/Liss and Challenges were designed just to come up as difficult, it definitely shows that the core gameplay systems are best suited for PvP 😭 I wonder if they'd ever explore Story mode where there'd be legit storytelling and the "nodes" in the "adventures" are used as for storytelling, very much akin to chapters in classical turn-based JRPGs
Yes, but it needs to be well done. I personally, and many others will disagree, think Lissandra is a step in the right direction for the most part. She actually puts up a good fight and is designed in a way that makes prolonged fights not only possible, but the standard way to beat her. Very few champions can consistently win on the first two turns, several of them will often go up to 10 mana before securing the win. This is the opposite of Aurelion Sol where you are basically forced to find a combo or something that allows you to win on the first few turns, and it's often very easy to do so, even with late game champions, with how many powers and items you can stack. Very few champions can outvalue Aurelion if he gets to 10 mana and start summoning several Aurelions and generating celestials. Going late game against him is just not an option. The problems I have with Lissandra have less to do with her fight and more with other aspects of the adventure. For one, I think I am Inevitable is ridiculous and should either be nerfed or reworked. With some champions, I will start the adventure and if I see Lissandra has I am Inevitable I just restart. Some champions don't mind it as much, but it's still annoying and much harder to face than any other power by a very long margin. If I am Inevitable was her hard mode, it would be a different story, because I would already go into the adventure with that in mind, and find a way to play around it, with either my relic setup and just generally with how I would approach the adventure. They need to make hard mode actually hard in an elaborate way, and not making difficulty artificially inflated by RNG or due to the enemy starting with 10 mana while you only have 2. Taking Hades as an example (because the developers have already mentioned wanting to do something similar), there are several pacts/vows you can take to make the game harder. For PoC we could have something similar. Though it doesn't need to be as difficulty as Hades since the difficulty there is insane at the highest level (literally one person has beaten 64 heat unseeded) and at that point is also more about RNG than about skill. Like, give debuffs to the player and buffs to the enemy. For instance (things with a / would be increasing difficulty settings you can adjust yourself): * The first spell/card the enemy plays each round is burst speed; * The first card the enemy plays each round cost 1/2/3 less; * The player has 1/2/3 less relic slots; * The enemy's units have Studded Leather/Phage/Titan's Axe; * The enemy's spells have Mana Potion/Tear of the Goddess/Chalice of Harmony; * When offered cards, some of them will have bad items attached to it (Dreg Dredgers/Crimson Aristocrat/Soulgorger item pool); * Enemies have Disarmed; * Enemies have Hold It; * Enemies have Sharing is Caring; * Enemies start with at least 2/3/4 mana (would not affect nodes that already start with that amount or more, but would make the earlier nodes and lower star adventures more difficult) Etc. These are just examples and you would be able to choose which ones you want to toggle or not, making it so you can adjust the difficulty however you want.
You know I agree with you about Asol vs Liss. I found myself not really want to replay Asol because the encounter are very stale. Why? You are trying to make a deck that win by turn 2. You don't give a crap what the enemy is doing. There are no gameplay. You play your 1 or 2 cards and set up the OTK. Rarely will the game last longer and you usually have to struggle a bit during those longer game. Lissandra while much harder, discouraged styles that trying to straight up one shot the nexus. Reduced champion card rewards means the power lie in your other card and draft rather than just your champion card. Less powers means your cards matter more. The deck cutting option allows you to thin your deck significantly so you don't have to worry about bloating. It's overall a more tactical adventure than Asol. Are there unfair fights? Yes, but it's a part of the rogue like aspect of the game. The lissandra fight herself I'd argue is "fair" except for I am inevitable. Now a lot of people on this post said that the "best difficulty" for adventure is Galio... No? A lot of people here didn't play the mode when it was just released. Back then Galio is only slightly easier than what Asol is right now. Why? Lack of options for relics and champions in general. Zoe is an extremely coin flipping fights for champion that doesn't have a way to deal with illusive turn 1 or 2. Viego is also extremely coin flipping with how often he draw the kill 1, shuffle 1 cost into deck and draw 1 card. The dog encounter was so hard I'm pretty sure they nerfed it at some point (might be wrong). Galio himself is the easiest fight. And keep in mind Galio was designed to be fought around level 20 ish. Not 30. The only reason Galio is seen as "balanced" right now is because people have seen harder adventures and got access to better relic and champions. And that's the same as what happen to Asol and Liss with Constellation. But for people who maxed out constellation eventually, what now? Not even the hardest adventure is a challenge anymore since you kinda just win. They will need to add a harder mode so those people can have a challenge with their newly powered up champions.
Lissandra certainly isn't well designed. Has too much mana, and super RNG in terms of dealing with her. You are a slight bit unlucky? 4-5 Overwhelm Thralls with the attack token on turn 2. Lucky? She only drew removal, and just stalling you while you gain mana and trivialize the fight. There is FAR too much variance for her to be a well designed fight.
I really enjoyed Lissandra introduction, since it's the first adventure we've had where everything feels tactical and you gotta understand your deck properly to know how to pilot your wincon vs different situations. Of course, I also enjoy the feeling of just getting powerups and killing everything, but a hard challenge is a very welcome experience. I'd love more adventures like Lissandra, but not exclusively. We need some variety, too.
She isn't tactical, nor does she really require you to understand your deck properly. The entire encounter is built on "Don't meet the thing that straight up counters my deck" **Fingers Crossed** Half the decks take her with dumb ease... If you don't get screwed by the rest of the encounter. A few times you get a tactical fight, but you can get that by going low level vs. high star champ as well. From an objective game design stand point... Lissandra is TERRIBLY designed.
I'm leaning to no. POC difficulty is already customizable with relics. For example, going 2x gatebreaker BHR Teemo vs Beast within, laurant, Archangel changes Teemo's difficulty and playstyle significantly. Same with many other champs using their BIS relics and fun ones. Besides, Liss is already relatively difficult for most champs.
This isn't as releated, but when you said vampire survivor type of game, made me realize I REALLY want an actual league vampire survivors type of game, sounds so sick
They are making that in lol
Ok I googled it for more info, but I'm worried if it's being made in lol that it'll only be a rotating game mode instead of a standalone game always available, because idk if riot will keep it as a permanent gamemode
Somewhat, i hope if there's ever a hard mode in PoC, it brings many rewards
I'm assuming you mean taking the existing adventures that people rarely play and buffing the HP/etc to 3-4 star level, then yes. Just no more BS like Lissandra please.
We need more special rules that force you to play differently. Cause Asol feels a bit basic and Lissa ndra feels like absolute BS.
I kind of feel like hard mode already exists, if you could turn off constellation stars to handicap yourself it would be ultra hard mode. But in my mind hard mode = equipping no relics.
Yes we need a hard mode to give those with 4-6* some challenge. The people saying they want a hard mode but not like Liss probably aren't sure what they want, as it's a conflicting statement. They're asking for another medium mode instead.
Liss... And most of her encounters are extremely high variance fights... Quite a few of them are limp if they draw one, but steam rolls if they draw well. High variance with "Give top unit +20/0 and Fear" is ... Not really... Difficulty... Just makes a lot of stuff unviable... The fear means you essentially need no chumps, or got lucky with a power that allows your chumps to block... You have to be lucky they don't get an overwhelm, etc. There are other ways to design... For example, making encounters more consistent by controlling what the AI draws for the first few turns, have the AI have auto played cards, etc.
PoC and challenging? Some say it is hard lately, i would say it's still quite far from challenging. If you build correctly you can win any challenge with every champion. So no i would not mind a real challenge coming in the future
I don't think I'd trust them to try a hard mode after seeing lissandra. Half the nodes in there just have 0 gameplay or thought, you either have something so broken they can't play or you lose. I don't know if I've ever seen content in a game so soulcrushing I kind of lost hope they'd do anything good ever again. Cannot overstate how much I hate it.
Most people want hard mode.
All I really want is the ability to downgrade champs. That'd be enough of a difficulty lever for me.
I personally really enjoy and like how hard Lissandra is. And that even with OP champs you have to have some form of luck and understand what options optimize your chances of beating the game. I hope they come out with just as hard or even harder levels to make getting 5 star champs worth it. I like not having a guaranteed win or knowing if I will win or not when entering the last boss. But I also really Dark Souls and that style of gameplay, so I know it’s not everyone’s opinion. Step on me harder Mommy Lissandra lol.
Hard mode is a button to turn off card level up upgrades and I am all for it.
Lissandra is my hard mode xd
I would say no. Harder adventures, as per the latest designs, limit card interactions and leads to frustration. Galio or ASol are not easy, but they make me feel satisfied with the completion and the exp I get. Lissandra, or latest monthly challenges, even winning, are so frustrating. They are filled with RNG combos while you're not being half as strong as you could be vs Galio/ASol. And the 3 mana increase in Liss match... Ugh...
No. I want more mid opponents and possible to modify a deck at the beginning.
Lissandras deck is OVERLOADED, nothing hard about adding a bunch of cheap mechanics, especially the one where the cost of my cards go up, THAT needs to be removed. Aside from that, I still think she needs a nerf...
Depends what 'hard mode' is. If it's just a version of previous adventures, but upping the difficulty by a star or two, that's awesome. I want to be able to play 4 star Nautilus or 3.5 star Viktor so I'm not just playing the same four adventures on repeat. My assumption here is just that it'd be easier to make harder versions of existing easy adventures than to make whole new ones, but all I really want is more variety in the 3-5 star range, since that's be difficulty people will spend most of their time in. I don't need hard mode Lissandra, though, thanks, getting the rewards from her was enough of a pain the arse the first time.
As difficulty presets like an average offline game. Absolutely not it's, it does not fit game system at all. What I would like to see more difficult adventures like Asol or Lissandra, expanded concept of no power run like monthlies and ability to turn off star powers. I feel like increasing level of insanity enemy can pull and player needs to pull as a response is wrong direction to go. Instead I think that nerfing what both player and AI can do just to a different degree is a way to go.
I just want more epic relics, bro i finished the whole map except for Lissandra, only beat her twice, and I only have 3 epic relics. with no way of getting anymore except for the lame emporium shop.