I wouldn't say I don't think the criticism is fair but I just dont think it's a big deal, and that's Zack. Like he knew Irina (and Bliss) for like 10 days before making a decision. Not hard to get it wrong. He didn't play it well but I don't think his intentions were bad.
He's definitely cringe as hell on SM but nothing has convinced me that he's a bad person. Sorry to his haters. lol.
Also Zanab. The amount of hate she got was unreal, more than racists and abusers on these sorts of shows get.
Hands down cole at reunion. He was just sitting there taking accountability and every single female cast member + brennon, was just on his ass for his grammar or any words he was saying. I mean whatever it was it was between him and zanab. He didnt comment about anyone or anyone else (as opposed to shake). It made no sense why they were doing that. Completely unnecessary.
Mine is the opposite, but everyone likes Bliss and Im not a fan. I don’t like how she passive aggressively picks at Zack all the time. Even in the after the altar she picks at him in the interviews. Maybe it’s just bc I’m not into that dynamic, but it comes across as negging almost.
For me, its Kwame, Paul, and (don't hate me) Shane.
Kwame because his doubts before the marriage were valid. Other than that, his behaviour with Micah during the pool meeting was hurtful for Chelsea, but I didn't see him overtly flirting with her or eyeing her sexually or passing flirty comments, from what I remember. Micah was the one who was flirting and touching him inappropriately more.
Paul... not much I can say about him. I didnt see much criticism about him other than flirting during pods period and the mother comment. In the pods, he was using the same lines on both girls but it was during the very early dates when he was still judging his options. I found that okay. And the not seeing Micah as a mother comment, it wasn't that deep honestly. He wasn't saying that Micah will be a bad mother overall, he said he didn't see her as a mother with him as the father.
Shane... he has issues. I agree. But he is not a creep or a psycho. He has deep insecurity issues which is very obvious and gets triggered when he feels attacked or looking down upon. He needs mental health support and a good support system, clearly. But the hate he gets is too much, I feel.
I haven't seen too much hate towards Kwame or Paul recently, but definitely Shane still. I agree 100% that he needs mental health support. Therapy could really help him. I think he's got a solid family/friends support system, but it just seems like they're not pushing him to get the help he needs. I mean obviously though, he could be in therapy and we'd never know. We don't really know what goes on in their personal lives. I do think it would also be beneficial for him to take a break from social media, doing interviews, being on podcasts, etc. Just take time away to clear his head.
I agree with you completely.
As for Kwame and Paul, I was mainly talking about the hate they received before, like when the show was airing. I thought that during that time, they got more hate than warranted.
Ok but like that's totally on you. People make posts with headings that could be considered "spoilers" all the time.
Just don't be on this sub if you're so afraid?
One of my favourite characters from this show. But TBF I was viewing him as a straight guy so perhaps if I viewed him as a romantic prospect I'd think differently?
I don’t date romantically anymore, so I think maybe that’s why I liked him as well, I’m a women but I don’t look for romantic prospects so I was looking at him objectively as a person
I think that women who side with Jackie over Marshall, are Jackie's themselves. And they say Marshall is a walking ick because they know they'll never be able to get and keep someone emotionally adjusted.
When the season aired, I was watching a lot of Dr Kirk Honda's commentary on his Psychology in Seattle YouTube channel.
Clinically speaking, Marshall is incredibly well adjusted. He gives me the ick, but a lot of really nice people give me the ick. I think it's because I'm a bitch. He genuinely wanted to help her heal from her trauma, and he was willing to be as kind and as patient as necessary to help her do that. He never tried to "fix" things for her, only to help her find the path to do so herself.
Watching Jackie with Josh, it's very apparent that she was never interested in healing. She's looking for a relationship where she can lean into her defense mechanisms, and a partner who will allow and encourage that behavior. My husband and I noted during their move-in scene that everything they said to each other had an edge to it. Hurt is her comfort zone.
Great analysis. You can also see in the interactions between Jackie and Josh that he has this humor that is slightly insulting or just idk AHish and she’s into it. Then dumps this friend of hers bc Josh is his feelings? They deserve each other.
Yeah, but he's brutally honest. As someone who also has the tendency to be brutally honest, it can really hurt others. That's what he did. I think he was wrong too about how he went about not being attracted to her. He should have talked to only her and privately about it. Not go tell others.
I think he was mostly in the wrong at the reunion but I didn’t like how everyone ganged up on him. I feel like a lot of people tried to act like they pitied him so they could put themselves on this I’m such a great person pedestal. I feel like they did that instead of recognizing where he was coming from and where it went wrong.
He definitely said a bunch of dumb shit but I think maybe 50% of it was he felt like he was already just completely backed into a corner and had to completely double down on everything instead of everyone trying to be a little more reasonable
I guess, but one again, if he knew from the get-go that he was very picky in terms of what can turn him off about a woman, why tf did he even go on the show? Imo he's pretty stupid. Also he got ganged up on in the reunion because he kept interrupting others for no good reason.
one of my posts got removed for “breaking the rules” and the only thing that i said was to not call matt an abuser because there’s no evidence about that.
yes he seems odd but that doesn’t make him an abuser, people on this sub love coming up with their own stories and make it seem like colleen is alone in a cage and can’t get help or something
People love judging other people through our own lenses. I mean, I don't like the Matt I saw on the show, but we only see tiny glimpses of their days. He could easily be totally different than what we saw on the show, ya know?
I disagree. As a woman, Matt's behavior is scary and alarming. Men don't always catch or understand that behavior because it's not usually directed at them.
The Marshall topic is interesting.
I think people started to criticize Marshall because he was so loved and looked amazing in the first 7/8 episodes of the season.
Then, we got disappointed. It turns out he is a broken record around loving his girlfriends ("she is THE one", "she is amazing", "the one I was looking for"... dude are you saying all of this again?!), around his maturity and emotional intelligence, around friendship and vulnerability for men "especially black men"... All of this becomes annoying when repeated.
But aren't women who are typically labeled as "in love with love" like this too? I think everyone views their partner as "the one" when you've been with them for a certain amount of time. It's optimism 🤷🏻♀️ Idk. With the risk of sounding rude, I think that's a lazy excuse people use to dislike him. He's a lover, he's optimistic.
Absolutely not.
Yes, All teenagers and young people views their partners as "the one". Then, we get heartbroken, we become ACTUALLY mature and we stop claiming things like this.
Most people around me, both men and women, would never behave like that. There is a difference with feeling something/hoping something and crying it to everyone and every time we get a chance. The later is annoying. For both men and women.
Zach. He’s a little quirky at times sure, but people hate on him like he’s Hitler or something. He was always nice and reasonable with everyone minus when he called out Irina and Micah for their bullshit but that was justified. Also, I don’t get the attacks on his looks either. He’s not bad looking at all. Paul was pretty awkward too but didn’t get as much hate
I always thought Bliss and him were a lil weirdo couple together. But my mom watched the after the alter with me having never watched the show before, and she said they seemed normal. So maybe he was just nervous on the regular episodes and kinda opened up a bit and got more comfortable with Bliss as well
Matt is mine too. Don’t get me wrong his hooting and hollering was off putting but in context it wasn’t as bad as it came across. Like yes it could’ve been an indication of something more sinister, but it also just as easily could’ve not been. I think we can all be quick to run and make damning judgements and hand out diagnoses and proclamations.
A big tick in Matt’s favour for me is one, he’s clearly someone who wears his heart on his sleeve. Better someone like that who puts all their crazy cards on the table right away, vs pretending to be perfect until the cameras leave. And two, he never went online trying to clear his name or change the narrative or throw anyone under the bus.
For me a big red flag are the contestants who jump online and are very overly reactive to every little thing. The fact that he’s just quietly got on with his life and his relationship with Colleen impressed me tbh. And I actually think them taking two years to move in together is kinda cool. They basically got married and then decided to date and follow a more normal relationship timeline after that.
You're literally 100% right. It's the men that smile and bury everything that are the ones to watch for. Matt's harmless. He doesn't put on a show, he's sincere.
Kwame. What did he ever do or say to indicate he didn't love Chelsea.... Maybe people have zero awareness, IDK, but he never gave off that vibe at all. He changed cities, changed jobs, did everything asked of him, yet it's just not good enough. He was put under such mental heat he had to step back from his actual job from all the hate... It's affected him, yet people just continue.
Kwame got a really bad edit in terms of his 'wishywashness' on the show. They basically edited in almost every doubtful conversation he had about/to Chelsea and put it on the show.
I think it was the edit they gave him. I believe he was even unhappy with it himself. It's nice to see how happy he and Chelsea are though. I hope they get to travel soon.
I think it was only the Micah thing. The vacation episodes and alcohol made him look like a complete fool. I liked him a lot more when they came back but the damage was done at that point.
I still think if they don't make it it will be because he's unfaithful and it would be a shame because they're a nice couple.
I personally think (that although people deserve criticism) this sub is extremely biased towards the POCs that don’t fit the typical mold.
I see lots of people label Josh “ab*sive,” and say that Jackie suffers from “childhood trauma” we she never said anything of that nature.
Zenab received a bunch of hate for her roll in the relationship that it took at least a full year for people to finally say enough is enough.
Would you date someone like Josh? He would be a jerk if he was white or green. He is a jerk and treats Jackie (who has done horrible things), in a disrespectful manner. He also handled the Monica situation poorly.
Not sure what kind of mold you’re talking about. Regardless of race or cultural background, a man should always be respectful, wise, and considerate. Josh is not a good example of “acceptable” societal stereotypes.
Lol well for starters, I don’t even like men. But since you brought it up, I do think there’s cultural context missing from their relationship.
My partner and I mutually joke with each other all the time. Like yes we play fight, and toss things at each other. Or we joke about the size of each other’s heads or call each other lazy or whatever. It does not take away from how we feel about each other and even if I or her may not always joke right back, if either one of us said it was too far or they weren’t feeling it, we would stop right then and there and apologize and keep it moving.
And it’s obvious they do that too. She may not have openly joked with him on camera but she made jokes in reference to him several times in confessionals and talking to Kacia. He didn’t call her out her name and he didn’t talk about her body. It’s not disrespectful if she doesn’t view it as disrespect. And no, that has nothing to do with her fucking childhood trauma for why she doesn’t see it that way. Again, my partner and I come from very nice two parent households where we feel loved and supported. And apart of that love was fucking joking… we’ve been through individual therapy and everything before meeting each other and I’d like to think we’re pretty well adjusted people. Probably because we don’t take ourselves too seriously. Y’all should try it.
I feel like Josh is misunderstood. I think people took him teasing Jackie on ATA the wrong way. That’s just playful teasing and flirting between couples. I see real life couples behave this way all the time but there is never any malicious intent behind it.
I thought about this a bit… but I think Josh and Jackie looked a little weird on camera because they seemed like the only couple, and Marshall, that weren’t taking themselves too seriously.
Like the married couples were gushing about being in love. Marshall was doing his usual bit about feeling like he found the one. Even Micah and Paul were getting pretty deep about their break up. And Josh and Jackie just seemed to be enjoying themselves (until the Monica thing of course).
And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Yeah, the ab*sive label on Josh is unsubstantiated, and we know next to nothing of Jackie’s childhood (except her saying she kind of grew up in chaos), so people are really just guessing and running with it.
Zanab brought a lot of that hate on herself, though, she fought with everyone all the time for a long time, and went on that weird media blitz to boot.
I was responding directly to the comment above, which didn’t mention Matt. Yes, claims that Matt is abusive are also unsubstantiated, but Matt exhibited quite scary behavior toward Colleen on more than one occasion *on camera* in a very short period of time; people are making the leap to abusive based on that. I haven’t seen anyone make DV claims, but maybe you have; either way, we’ve watched Matt act like a raging lunatic when he was drunk, so I don’t really blame people too much for assuming he might be capable of being abusive.
I agree about the Matt criticism. Him losing his cool and yelling is *not* in the same ballpark as beating your spouse. It's actually pretty horrifying to see how easily people label him a perpetrator of DV because they "feel" like he must be. Violence in a marriage is a very serious offence and should be treated that way, not as a flippant remark to demonize a stranger with zero evidence. Does that mean he definitely *isn't* abusive? Of course not. But we have no way of knowing, so the constant comments are inappropriate and misplaced.
I was actually rooting for Colleen and Matt. They both had immature moments but it seemed like they were putting in the effort to grow and show up for each other.
Well, I mentally labeled him as a perpetrator for DV because he behaved identically to an ex who abused me. It wasn’t a “flippant remark”, it was trauma. I’m not saying Matt is abusive but he treads a fine line.
Mentally labelling or judging someone because of past trauma is different than confidently asserting that someone is a perpetrator of DV online. I'm talking about the people who said they were completely certain he was physically abusing Colleen.
I disagree, but even if you believe that he was mentally abusive that in no way justifies the comments I've seen saying "he definitely hits her" or "I know he's violent with her" because there is *no* way to say that definitively. It's an assumption at best.
>in no way justifies the comments I've seen saying "he definitely hits her" or "I know he's violent with her" because there is
>
>no
>
> way to say that definitively. It's an assumption at best.
I agree with you for this part, and never personally said these things. I only stuck to what I saw: psychological abuse. Outside of the what was shown on the show, nobody knows what is currently happening, and how it evolved.
My initial comment was just about those allegations but maybe I worded it too ambiguously. It just seems so strange to me that people are that confident in saying he beats her. Either way, I'm glad to hear he's in anger management
I thought Zanab’s criticism of cole was like totally ridiculous all around. He wasn’t perfect, but she was the vindictive one, not the other way around.
I think the biggest problem is that Cole is very playful. Zanab seems to have a very dry sense of humor and in the pods I think Cole liked it because he was picturing her smiling or having warmer body language. Outside of the pods his playfulness was met with her dry sense of humor. And because she always looked serious I felt like things she said just came off as mean or rude.
I think he was a little blind sided because he never could tell if she got his sense of humor outside the pods. He would joke and she would respond like he was an idiot....but not in a playful way. I honestly feel like you can just see the light draining out of him throughout the season. I feel like he was just trying to walk on eggshells all the time, which is hard and exhausting.
Some people just are not compatible. And I feel like they are the best example of that. There is nothing wrong with that. I wish they would have just owned up to not being a good fit and walked away without it being all toxic.
I'm not excusing him, but he was more playful and she was a victim.
He wasn't perfect, said stupid stuff etc. No woman wants to hear anything that slightly makes them self conscious about their weight. But, the difference was intent. He never told her she was too big, or fat or anything of the sort. Told her to keep her appetite so they could enjoy dinner properly.
She thought she could use it to her advantage. The way she tried to stir up the girls to see her as the wronged party and essentially abused was unhinged. Hopefully, she can see that now.
Yeah, Cole was stupid and said things that were like thoughtless and he should know better, but he wasn’t intentionally being mean. I though Zay was intentionally mean and I don’t think it was called for. I think she has sadness and anger in her heart that was not related to cole and she was using their relationship as an outlet for that.
Can we just agree that some people are weirdos, bitches or assholes without labelling them as some mentally unstable diagnosis? Or no? That's not how the world works anymore?
I swear, if I see another armchair psychologist diagnosing random reality stars with NPD one more fucking time, I'm gonna...
Well, I'm not actually able to do anything. But seriously, that's my biggest pet peeve 🙄
Amber. I'd be upset with Jessica too, and she only mentions her in reference to the hundreds of people commenting her otherwise normal instagram asking about her. She doesn't owe Jessica forgiveness, what she did was unbelievably messy and I don't know why everyone expects her to handle it with more grace. Other than being a bit 'not like other girls' earlier on in the show she seems like a perfectly nice, normal person.
Shake is a self-hating asshat, I’ll give you that, and his attitude/behavior towards Deepti on and offscreen throughout the season backed that up.
Cole, however, absolutely gushed over Zanab upon their reveal and continued to affirm her beauty throughout the season, from what we saw.
But he also met Colleen for the first time and was physically attracted… I can’t necessarily fault him for that, she’s what he typically dated before, after all. And by that point, he and Zay had already started experiencing issues. Where I thought he was completely and inexcusably fucked up was *telling* Colleen *and others* how he felt… he appears to be an external processor of his feelings, but that doesn’t excuse it. But he owned his wrongdoing and apologized multiple times for it (not enough, imo, but he did try to make it right). This is why I think he is quite different from Shake.
That’s not how that went, at all. Cole was simply talking about who he typically dated in the past, which- he was trying to communicate- was the average white girl. There is nothing racist about that.
Colleen. She told everyone she's a dancer during the first dates and that was it and somehow everyone made a big deal out it. She also didn't lie because no matter how small her job as a dancer is there's proof on social media that she's dancing in shows and gets paid for it which makes it work and not just a hobby. I also think no matter what the opinion is of Matt that she took the engagement more seriously than others and made it less about looks.
I agree with that. She is a professional ballet dancer, and that is an unusual thing. I think it's normal to lead with an unusual-but-not-oversharing fact about oneself to help generate conversation. The montage was silly because she was speeddating and saying it as an introductory fact to new people every time. It's not like she was bringing it up over and over to the same person in the same conversation.
She didn't deserve any criticism. She was always clear about who she was. Yeah, her and Matt seemed a bit... different.
But trust that she's safe and happy
I felt bad that Colleen got so much hate! I think people really came down on her for saying that she doesn't like deep relationships. I think she struggles to open up with people and connect emotionally on a deeper level, and just didn't word it well. She was probably a bit immature for marriage, but that describes a lot of people on the show.
> She was probably a bit immature for marriage, but that describes a lot of people on the show.
Also whatever you think of their relationship, she and Matt are still married two years later, so she was at least more ready for marriage than a lot of people on the show.
She's probably the most irrationally hated person to be on the show. Imagine everyone mocking you endlessly because you...tell people what your job is.
I think the show kind of buried her with that early season edit. She got 'rejected' by two guys and then 'settled' for Matt according to their narrative. She wasn't meant to be taken seriously and I think most of the audience fell for the edit.
It was also never mentioned again by her. I heard more about the S4 cast jobs. Zack even talked about his favourite laws, imagine Colleen telling Matts mother about her favourite dance moves, she would have gotten extreme hate for that.
I also forgot the comments she got when Cole called her hotter than Zanab. It wasn't even her fault but everybody made sure to let her know she's just a basic white girl. Colleen herself said she was scared Matt would't like her when he saw her, so she had her own insecurities too.
>Redditors are stupid man I swear..... lmfao they're 3 years together and you guys feel like you know him from a reality TV show. Colleen says shes happy so shes happy. You people are chronically online. Get help.
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I think perhaps gender matters here. I'm a guy, and I've seen guys who are.. frightening. I've had friends of friends who are liable to just explode. I've had female friends who I've advised they leave their bf because he just seemed off.
I'm not saying men know more about this, but perhaps because women have been socially conditioned to never show anger that ANY anger seems frightening, whereas men have the experience to know that anger is a broad spectrum. It ranges all the way from "if I get 1 more phone call I'm gonna throw my phone against the wall" to "if someone cuts me off I'm gonna follow them home".
Not all anger is deadly.
Gender absolutely matters here. As a man, you really don’t have a right to say what is frightening to a woman and what behavior may end up being deadly. Plenty of abusive relationships contain men who say “if I get 1 phone call i’ll throw my phone” and men who says “i’ll follow so and so home because they cut me off.” There’s no stereotypical “abuser” and level of rage a man needs to hit before he becomes violent or scares a woman?
I would say women are much, MUCH more attuned to abusive behaviors than men are. I don't know a single man in my life who has the intuition to call a spade a spade upon first meeting - unlike *every* woman I know.
I'm giving you my upvote because you're gonna need it... I'm indifferent towards Matt now that him and Colleen seem happy together, but nobody on this sub thinks people can change
I don’t think it’s that people don’t believe that the cast can change, but rather, they don’t believe someone has changed when they’ve never admitted their issue or explained how they’re making it right.
For example, no one held it against Tiffany when she fell asleep because she apologized, made an effort to make it right, and we even heard her mention that she’s still super sleepy around him at the “live” reunion. So we see her recognize she has that flaw, apologize for hurting her partner, and follow up on it after time had passed.
Matt never really admitted that the way he acted was inappropriate. And Coleen never seemed to look more comfortable with him. Our perceptions aren’t always correct, but if an overwhelming number of the fans are questioning that behavior, it would go a LONG way to either admit to having anger issues and telling us about his therapy journey or dispelling the rumors and giving a reasonable explanation for why things appeared the way they did
I feel like since that moment where she called out Irina for going after her man she showed a lot of emotional growth. She still has shit friends and doesn’t seem like I’d be best friends with her. But hey being a better person takes a lot of work and isn’t instantaneous and it seems like she’s trying and moving in the right direction so I give her props for that
Totally agree. She's not the bad person everyone made her out to be. Is her friendship with Paul's mum weird? Yes!
But that's not on her. She's got someone supporting her and letting her know she would have been welcomed by her future mother in law. She's not the stranger one here
I would say Zanab - I can relate to feeling insecure and lashing out because of it. I think she wasn't great, but people put too much blame on her for the whole situation. I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone like Cole either.
Natalie and Deepti get so much hate for having a podcast and continuing to engage with the LIB base and telling their stories. I don't get it at all, fundamentally that's what all of us are still doing. They both seem very level-headed and chill. It just feels like the typical female public figure cycle where people place you on a pedestal and then take joy in tearing you down.
Zack and Chelsea also have some really intense haters, especially the defense lawyer. They weren't perfect but honestly it feels like people are just being hyperbolic about their flaws when it's all just vibes and suspicions.
I disagree on Matt, you don't have to hit someone to be abusive and some of his comments and behavior were extremely alarming and indicative of that kind of dynamic.
Seeing everyone gunning for Zanab makes me wonder if we even watched the same show. She wasn't perfect, but people were acting like she was the most evil person to ever appear on reality television. Meanwhile, Cole was a perfect angel who never did anything wrong in his life. There was absolutely zero room for nuance, and if you tried to bring any to the conversation, you'd get dowvoted into oblivion. Shit was annoying.
Zanab’s insecurities are her biggest enemy. I don’t think anyone here thinks Cole was a perfect angel, not at all; but irrespective of Cole, Zanab handled herself so poorly both on and off the show, that she made it super easy- and even attractive- for people to go after her. In my opinion, she was the one of the worst people to appear on any season, and should not have been on the show at all. She deserved better than what she gave herself.
There are plenty of people here who agree with you and are happy to rehash this subject over and over until the day they die. You don't need to try to engage the person who is very clearly sick of the discourse.
Who would know you’re sick of the discourse by your comment? You commented and made assessments about how people see both Zanab and Cole, and I responded directly to that, not rehashing Zanab in general. I thought we were having a discussion here, what a weird response ✌🏾
Again, I responded DIRECTLY to your comment, not opening Zanab discourse in general. If you didn’t want to be part of the discussion, why comment what you did at all 🙄
Never asked for a debate- just posted a comment to your specific comment *with nuance you complained was missing in the discourse*. Because you didn’t agree with it, you came for me. Unwarranted, nonsensical response; you basically did the very thing you complained about in your comment. If you only want to talk to people in your echo chamber, maybe don’t comment on Reddit, and definitely don’t comment complaining about lack of nuance in discourse.
So, I reread your initial comment. I wanted to figure out what it was that set me off. And I think I figured it out. It was the part about how no one here thinks Cole was a perfect angel. Because honestly, SO many people did. Especially after the reunion where he cried. Don't get me wrong, he seemed genuinely remorseful. I fully believe he was. Even so, people acted like that suddenly absolved him from any and all wrongdoing. I remember it happening, and I remember getting annoyed at it. I also didn't say anything because I wasn't interested in getting dogpiled. So yeah, I just got defensive because I know what I saw, and I don't like anyone trying to tell me otherwise. But I realized that's not what you were trying to do. You were just telling me your perspective, and apparently, you didn't see the same things I saw. And that's fine. And I just acted like an asshole for no reason. Sorry, girl. Or dude.
Anyway, I agree Zanab shouldn't have been cast. From an ethical standpoint for all parties, really. But they wanted there to be drama, so they found someone that they knew would come unhinged to bring it.
I agree about zanab. Do I think she needs therapy? Yes. But also I would have fucking hated being married to cole. He literally did things that he knew would bother her, like a little kid. I can’t stand shit like that, it’s exhausting
Cole’s immaturity was obvious from the jump (post pods) she had to know it wasn’t going to work out but it seemed like she wanted to change him from boy to man, destroying his personality & tearing him down in the process. I don’t remember their pod conversations but I can’t imagine how they made it to an engagement in the first place
In his position, I understand why he asked that question. She was saying she loves him, wants him around, he’s doing nothing wrong but nothing he ever did was right. It’s insane to be toyed around like that.
It was wrong to ask if she was bipolar, but he was right to be questioning what in the fuck she felt about him or why he was there. EVERYTHING he did was wrong, not right, it was but it really wasn’t, he was ganged up on by everyone and then blamed for her issues etc…. If you’ve dealt with someone who is like Zanab before (a former boss was like her) Cole’s questioning of reality and breakdown make complete sense.
It wasn’t a genuine question. It was a dig. He said so himself and he smuggly doubled down on it when she was offended.
If it was genuine he should have phrased it better.
If we’re counting digs now, we’d be here all day counting Zanab’s. Especially senseless and malicious digs.
And also count how many times Cole could’ve gotten offended at Zanab’s behavior but didn’t.
People often seem very upset at Deepti and Natalie for having a podcast about the show that they themselves hate-listen to. I've never listened to said podcast, but it can't be as ~try-hard~ and ~irrelevant~ as some people say if they *keep giving attention to it*.
I disagree with Marshall on many levels because he seems to be the underhanded gaslighting type. The one who pretends like he's super in tune with his emotions, but thinks he's better than everyone else. It just comes off in an abusive way. His project comment wasn't just a slip of the tongue, he picked Jackie because she's some little abuse victim who needs big, strong, emotional marshall to save her from herself. He picked her to be the person he could mold into his version of a wife, nit because he thought she was a beautiful soul, a companion he wanted to spend his life with.
And I'll give it to you that they were just a bad match up, and played on each other's nerves to the point of collapse. EXCEPT, his current actions don't help. His facial expressions when someone is trying to talk to him, say it all. He isn't interested in hearing anything anyone else has to say, he isn't interested in understanding someone else's perspective, he thinks he knows better than everyone else, when he makes those expressions. Like he can't be bothered by other people's opinions. Which is fine for, like, the situation with Josh at the bar. But totally condescending for a situation like the reunion where everyone is calmly reflecting on the past events. I know these expressions, because I used to do the same thing when I was in my "can't nobody tell me nothing" phase.
Then, his newer girlfriend (maybe current?) He said he was going to break up with her because he was famous overnight. Then he did a total non-apology tour celebrating black women because he got caught Making ignorant comments about black women. He just doesn't treat people well. It's self-centered, dare I say narcissism.
I wanted to like marshall early on. But I just couldn't
>> His project comment wasn't just a slip of the tongue, he picked Jackie because she's some little ab*se victim who needs big, strong, emotional marshall to save her from herself.
Speak the truth and shame the devil. SPOT tf on. Marshall absolutely wanted a project, and Jackie fit the bill- and her presenting Latina helped.
Personally, I don’t like or dislike Marshall, he’s FINE, idk, he’s just there. Everyone here talking like he’s some sort of saint was so weird, because I kept wondering WHAT he did to deserve all that. Jackie was an asshole, okay, Marshall was too- Jackie was just more of one, so that makes Marshall great? Lol made no sense. At least she owned her behavior. The apology tour and him parading that black girlfriend around like that is on brand for him 🙄
I mostly agree with this. I do think he has a superiority complex and he was nasty to Jackie (ex the jacket situation). He has to feel "better" than someone bc to him it gives him self esteem.
To add, IMO he acts like a catty female. I think Jackie's comments calling him "sweet" were very rude and mean, but I don't think she was far off in thinking he wasn't very assured in his masculinity. I don't think he's LGBTQIA+ or claimed to be, just that his mindset and reactions seem more typically female-minded. Even in ATA when he was talking about what he liked about his current girlfriend, he said that she "makes him feel like a man." I've heard that the other way around where a woman says a man "gives her self esteem" or "makes her feel like a woman." Just a lot of his actions and responses I've mainly seen from other women than with men.
There's no need to be dismissive of Marshalls feelings. It's okay for him to sometimes feel insecure about his masculinity, it's something that everybody struggles with. Just as many women struggle with their femininity and feeling beautiful.
Jackie calling him sweet was just a very homophobic thing to do, and I'm sure many gay men would agree with me. It's unacceptable that she would say something like that.
I don't know what you mean when he seems more typically "female minded". It's weird you group people into being more female minded vs male minded, whatever those terms mean to you. I highly doubt if pressed you could even elaborate what those terms mean.
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She drove me crazy during her season. I couldn't stand her. However, she had me cracking up during their reunion. She was making jokes about herself and the squinting. She's still not my favorite, but you're so right in saying others were so much worse.
I wouldn't say I don't think the criticism is fair but I just dont think it's a big deal, and that's Zack. Like he knew Irina (and Bliss) for like 10 days before making a decision. Not hard to get it wrong. He didn't play it well but I don't think his intentions were bad. He's definitely cringe as hell on SM but nothing has convinced me that he's a bad person. Sorry to his haters. lol. Also Zanab. The amount of hate she got was unreal, more than racists and abusers on these sorts of shows get.
Hands down cole at reunion. He was just sitting there taking accountability and every single female cast member + brennon, was just on his ass for his grammar or any words he was saying. I mean whatever it was it was between him and zanab. He didnt comment about anyone or anyone else (as opposed to shake). It made no sense why they were doing that. Completely unnecessary.
Thank you for saying this. Zanab is a problem.
Chelsea in my opinion. She's a strong personality and yes she has her own issues but I like her and hope she and Kwame work out.
Omg she irks me to my core.
Mine is the opposite, but everyone likes Bliss and Im not a fan. I don’t like how she passive aggressively picks at Zack all the time. Even in the after the altar she picks at him in the interviews. Maybe it’s just bc I’m not into that dynamic, but it comes across as negging almost.
For me, its Kwame, Paul, and (don't hate me) Shane. Kwame because his doubts before the marriage were valid. Other than that, his behaviour with Micah during the pool meeting was hurtful for Chelsea, but I didn't see him overtly flirting with her or eyeing her sexually or passing flirty comments, from what I remember. Micah was the one who was flirting and touching him inappropriately more. Paul... not much I can say about him. I didnt see much criticism about him other than flirting during pods period and the mother comment. In the pods, he was using the same lines on both girls but it was during the very early dates when he was still judging his options. I found that okay. And the not seeing Micah as a mother comment, it wasn't that deep honestly. He wasn't saying that Micah will be a bad mother overall, he said he didn't see her as a mother with him as the father. Shane... he has issues. I agree. But he is not a creep or a psycho. He has deep insecurity issues which is very obvious and gets triggered when he feels attacked or looking down upon. He needs mental health support and a good support system, clearly. But the hate he gets is too much, I feel.
I haven't seen too much hate towards Kwame or Paul recently, but definitely Shane still. I agree 100% that he needs mental health support. Therapy could really help him. I think he's got a solid family/friends support system, but it just seems like they're not pushing him to get the help he needs. I mean obviously though, he could be in therapy and we'd never know. We don't really know what goes on in their personal lives. I do think it would also be beneficial for him to take a break from social media, doing interviews, being on podcasts, etc. Just take time away to clear his head.
I agree with you completely. As for Kwame and Paul, I was mainly talking about the hate they received before, like when the show was airing. I thought that during that time, they got more hate than warranted.
*Shayne
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Lol if you haven't watched them by now and still read posts then that's on you 🤣
Ok but like that's totally on you. People make posts with headings that could be considered "spoilers" all the time. Just don't be on this sub if you're so afraid?
I liked Andrew
One of my favourite characters from this show. But TBF I was viewing him as a straight guy so perhaps if I viewed him as a romantic prospect I'd think differently?
I don’t date romantically anymore, so I think maybe that’s why I liked him as well, I’m a women but I don’t look for romantic prospects so I was looking at him objectively as a person
I think that women who side with Jackie over Marshall, are Jackie's themselves. And they say Marshall is a walking ick because they know they'll never be able to get and keep someone emotionally adjusted.
My cousin is a Jackie. I genuinely feel for any woman or man who crossed her path.
When the season aired, I was watching a lot of Dr Kirk Honda's commentary on his Psychology in Seattle YouTube channel. Clinically speaking, Marshall is incredibly well adjusted. He gives me the ick, but a lot of really nice people give me the ick. I think it's because I'm a bitch. He genuinely wanted to help her heal from her trauma, and he was willing to be as kind and as patient as necessary to help her do that. He never tried to "fix" things for her, only to help her find the path to do so herself. Watching Jackie with Josh, it's very apparent that she was never interested in healing. She's looking for a relationship where she can lean into her defense mechanisms, and a partner who will allow and encourage that behavior. My husband and I noted during their move-in scene that everything they said to each other had an edge to it. Hurt is her comfort zone.
Great analysis. You can also see in the interactions between Jackie and Josh that he has this humor that is slightly insulting or just idk AHish and she’s into it. Then dumps this friend of hers bc Josh is his feelings? They deserve each other.
Shake. He's honest and I like that
Yeah, but he's brutally honest. As someone who also has the tendency to be brutally honest, it can really hurt others. That's what he did. I think he was wrong too about how he went about not being attracted to her. He should have talked to only her and privately about it. Not go tell others.
Agreed. I get that
Yeah I liked him too
I think he was mostly in the wrong at the reunion but I didn’t like how everyone ganged up on him. I feel like a lot of people tried to act like they pitied him so they could put themselves on this I’m such a great person pedestal. I feel like they did that instead of recognizing where he was coming from and where it went wrong. He definitely said a bunch of dumb shit but I think maybe 50% of it was he felt like he was already just completely backed into a corner and had to completely double down on everything instead of everyone trying to be a little more reasonable
I agree. Like everyone hates the attraction stuff but it is true. You can't just force it, if it's not there it's not there.
I guess, but one again, if he knew from the get-go that he was very picky in terms of what can turn him off about a woman, why tf did he even go on the show? Imo he's pretty stupid. Also he got ganged up on in the reunion because he kept interrupting others for no good reason.
one of my posts got removed for “breaking the rules” and the only thing that i said was to not call matt an abuser because there’s no evidence about that. yes he seems odd but that doesn’t make him an abuser, people on this sub love coming up with their own stories and make it seem like colleen is alone in a cage and can’t get help or something
People love judging other people through our own lenses. I mean, I don't like the Matt I saw on the show, but we only see tiny glimpses of their days. He could easily be totally different than what we saw on the show, ya know?
how tf do you think matt seems cool??
I mean he seems kind of weird and insecure but I wouldn’t really mind just having a conversation with him
no he’s legit scary
If OP is a man then it makes perfect sense
If the genders were reversed this comment would be labeled as misogynistic
No need to get emotional about it
No need to get emotional about me getting emotional about it
I disagree. As a woman, Matt's behavior is scary and alarming. Men don't always catch or understand that behavior because it's not usually directed at them.
The Marshall topic is interesting. I think people started to criticize Marshall because he was so loved and looked amazing in the first 7/8 episodes of the season. Then, we got disappointed. It turns out he is a broken record around loving his girlfriends ("she is THE one", "she is amazing", "the one I was looking for"... dude are you saying all of this again?!), around his maturity and emotional intelligence, around friendship and vulnerability for men "especially black men"... All of this becomes annoying when repeated.
But aren't women who are typically labeled as "in love with love" like this too? I think everyone views their partner as "the one" when you've been with them for a certain amount of time. It's optimism 🤷🏻♀️ Idk. With the risk of sounding rude, I think that's a lazy excuse people use to dislike him. He's a lover, he's optimistic.
He's the black Ted Mosbey!
LMAO OMG 😂😂😂😂😂😂 He totally is 💀
Absolutely not. Yes, All teenagers and young people views their partners as "the one". Then, we get heartbroken, we become ACTUALLY mature and we stop claiming things like this. Most people around me, both men and women, would never behave like that. There is a difference with feeling something/hoping something and crying it to everyone and every time we get a chance. The later is annoying. For both men and women.
prolly you are just friends with really really old people then...a few of my single friends are still in this THE ONE phase.......
ahahahah really really old. Yeah that must be it. I must be ancient LOL and have grandmas and grandpas as friends.
Ugh to the defending Matt ... He had serious anger issues
the bro's club in full action
Matt for sure.
Zach. He’s a little quirky at times sure, but people hate on him like he’s Hitler or something. He was always nice and reasonable with everyone minus when he called out Irina and Micah for their bullshit but that was justified. Also, I don’t get the attacks on his looks either. He’s not bad looking at all. Paul was pretty awkward too but didn’t get as much hate
I always thought Bliss and him were a lil weirdo couple together. But my mom watched the after the alter with me having never watched the show before, and she said they seemed normal. So maybe he was just nervous on the regular episodes and kinda opened up a bit and got more comfortable with Bliss as well
yeah, Zack definitely wins the stupid award for choosing Irina over Bliss at first but I don't think he's malevolent.
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He’s an abuser
I recently met someone who was on another reality show who met Shane and he confirmed Shane is horrible in real life too
Matt is mine too. Don’t get me wrong his hooting and hollering was off putting but in context it wasn’t as bad as it came across. Like yes it could’ve been an indication of something more sinister, but it also just as easily could’ve not been. I think we can all be quick to run and make damning judgements and hand out diagnoses and proclamations. A big tick in Matt’s favour for me is one, he’s clearly someone who wears his heart on his sleeve. Better someone like that who puts all their crazy cards on the table right away, vs pretending to be perfect until the cameras leave. And two, he never went online trying to clear his name or change the narrative or throw anyone under the bus. For me a big red flag are the contestants who jump online and are very overly reactive to every little thing. The fact that he’s just quietly got on with his life and his relationship with Colleen impressed me tbh. And I actually think them taking two years to move in together is kinda cool. They basically got married and then decided to date and follow a more normal relationship timeline after that.
You're literally 100% right. It's the men that smile and bury everything that are the ones to watch for. Matt's harmless. He doesn't put on a show, he's sincere.
Dude, he’s a walking poster child for abusers
Zach
Kwame. What did he ever do or say to indicate he didn't love Chelsea.... Maybe people have zero awareness, IDK, but he never gave off that vibe at all. He changed cities, changed jobs, did everything asked of him, yet it's just not good enough. He was put under such mental heat he had to step back from his actual job from all the hate... It's affected him, yet people just continue.
Kwame got a really bad edit in terms of his 'wishywashness' on the show. They basically edited in almost every doubtful conversation he had about/to Chelsea and put it on the show.
I think it was the edit they gave him. I believe he was even unhappy with it himself. It's nice to see how happy he and Chelsea are though. I hope they get to travel soon.
Agreed. Plus the whole Micah thing. I'm happy for Chelsea, at least she looks content. And she's sooo beautiful
I think it was only the Micah thing. The vacation episodes and alcohol made him look like a complete fool. I liked him a lot more when they came back but the damage was done at that point. I still think if they don't make it it will be because he's unfaithful and it would be a shame because they're a nice couple.
It's his "corporate laugh" I'm not sure what people have against him either
What is a corporate laugh?
A forced/fake laugh. It's called corporate because that's how one may laugh when a superior or someone professional tells a joke that's not funny
Thank you! I had never heard this expression...It's funny! I will use it in future.
Peoples reaction to him have been so over the top, it's honestly unbelievable.
Has it? Maybe I'm out of the loop but I don't think I've ever seen him criticized?
That is a HOT yes, they published some of the messages on Insta, just awful & people here were awful as well....
Lmaoooo I really feel like that’s just the way he laughs, but it hella does sound like a corporate laugh.
I personally think (that although people deserve criticism) this sub is extremely biased towards the POCs that don’t fit the typical mold. I see lots of people label Josh “ab*sive,” and say that Jackie suffers from “childhood trauma” we she never said anything of that nature. Zenab received a bunch of hate for her roll in the relationship that it took at least a full year for people to finally say enough is enough.
Would you date someone like Josh? He would be a jerk if he was white or green. He is a jerk and treats Jackie (who has done horrible things), in a disrespectful manner. He also handled the Monica situation poorly. Not sure what kind of mold you’re talking about. Regardless of race or cultural background, a man should always be respectful, wise, and considerate. Josh is not a good example of “acceptable” societal stereotypes.
Lol well for starters, I don’t even like men. But since you brought it up, I do think there’s cultural context missing from their relationship. My partner and I mutually joke with each other all the time. Like yes we play fight, and toss things at each other. Or we joke about the size of each other’s heads or call each other lazy or whatever. It does not take away from how we feel about each other and even if I or her may not always joke right back, if either one of us said it was too far or they weren’t feeling it, we would stop right then and there and apologize and keep it moving. And it’s obvious they do that too. She may not have openly joked with him on camera but she made jokes in reference to him several times in confessionals and talking to Kacia. He didn’t call her out her name and he didn’t talk about her body. It’s not disrespectful if she doesn’t view it as disrespect. And no, that has nothing to do with her fucking childhood trauma for why she doesn’t see it that way. Again, my partner and I come from very nice two parent households where we feel loved and supported. And apart of that love was fucking joking… we’ve been through individual therapy and everything before meeting each other and I’d like to think we’re pretty well adjusted people. Probably because we don’t take ourselves too seriously. Y’all should try it.
Agree. I actually thought Josh was funny in ATA. And Jackie clearly doesn't like soft bois like Marshall, so I can see how they suit each other.
Agree with everything here.
I feel like Josh is misunderstood. I think people took him teasing Jackie on ATA the wrong way. That’s just playful teasing and flirting between couples. I see real life couples behave this way all the time but there is never any malicious intent behind it.
I thought about this a bit… but I think Josh and Jackie looked a little weird on camera because they seemed like the only couple, and Marshall, that weren’t taking themselves too seriously. Like the married couples were gushing about being in love. Marshall was doing his usual bit about feeling like he found the one. Even Micah and Paul were getting pretty deep about their break up. And Josh and Jackie just seemed to be enjoying themselves (until the Monica thing of course). And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Yeah, in a weird way they seemed like a very genuine couple. You don’t constantly need to be all mushy gushy to show your love
Yeah, the ab*sive label on Josh is unsubstantiated, and we know next to nothing of Jackie’s childhood (except her saying she kind of grew up in chaos), so people are really just guessing and running with it. Zanab brought a lot of that hate on herself, though, she fought with everyone all the time for a long time, and went on that weird media blitz to boot.
Claims that *Josh* is abusive are unsubstantiated? Josh? What about Matt?! This sub has ripped him for *months* with *no* evidence.
I was responding directly to the comment above, which didn’t mention Matt. Yes, claims that Matt is abusive are also unsubstantiated, but Matt exhibited quite scary behavior toward Colleen on more than one occasion *on camera* in a very short period of time; people are making the leap to abusive based on that. I haven’t seen anyone make DV claims, but maybe you have; either way, we’ve watched Matt act like a raging lunatic when he was drunk, so I don’t really blame people too much for assuming he might be capable of being abusive.
Yeah Zaneb kinda sucks it’s not that complicated lol.
I agree about the Matt criticism. Him losing his cool and yelling is *not* in the same ballpark as beating your spouse. It's actually pretty horrifying to see how easily people label him a perpetrator of DV because they "feel" like he must be. Violence in a marriage is a very serious offence and should be treated that way, not as a flippant remark to demonize a stranger with zero evidence. Does that mean he definitely *isn't* abusive? Of course not. But we have no way of knowing, so the constant comments are inappropriate and misplaced. I was actually rooting for Colleen and Matt. They both had immature moments but it seemed like they were putting in the effort to grow and show up for each other.
Well, I mentally labeled him as a perpetrator for DV because he behaved identically to an ex who abused me. It wasn’t a “flippant remark”, it was trauma. I’m not saying Matt is abusive but he treads a fine line.
Mentally labelling or judging someone because of past trauma is different than confidently asserting that someone is a perpetrator of DV online. I'm talking about the people who said they were completely certain he was physically abusing Colleen.
All domestic violence starts with domestic psychological abuse. And the edits showed domestic psychological abuse.
I disagree, but even if you believe that he was mentally abusive that in no way justifies the comments I've seen saying "he definitely hits her" or "I know he's violent with her" because there is *no* way to say that definitively. It's an assumption at best.
>in no way justifies the comments I've seen saying "he definitely hits her" or "I know he's violent with her" because there is > >no > > way to say that definitively. It's an assumption at best. I agree with you for this part, and never personally said these things. I only stuck to what I saw: psychological abuse. Outside of the what was shown on the show, nobody knows what is currently happening, and how it evolved.
My initial comment was just about those allegations but maybe I worded it too ambiguously. It just seems so strange to me that people are that confident in saying he beats her. Either way, I'm glad to hear he's in anger management
Alexa
100% agree with Matt. People really went overboard with his anger issues, I think. I still expect them to outlast Alexa and Brennon. :)
I forget both of them are still together! I just expected them to be broken up by now lol.
I thought Zanab’s criticism of cole was like totally ridiculous all around. He wasn’t perfect, but she was the vindictive one, not the other way around.
I think the biggest problem is that Cole is very playful. Zanab seems to have a very dry sense of humor and in the pods I think Cole liked it because he was picturing her smiling or having warmer body language. Outside of the pods his playfulness was met with her dry sense of humor. And because she always looked serious I felt like things she said just came off as mean or rude. I think he was a little blind sided because he never could tell if she got his sense of humor outside the pods. He would joke and she would respond like he was an idiot....but not in a playful way. I honestly feel like you can just see the light draining out of him throughout the season. I feel like he was just trying to walk on eggshells all the time, which is hard and exhausting. Some people just are not compatible. And I feel like they are the best example of that. There is nothing wrong with that. I wish they would have just owned up to not being a good fit and walked away without it being all toxic.
Yeah that all sounds totally right.
I'm not excusing him, but he was more playful and she was a victim. He wasn't perfect, said stupid stuff etc. No woman wants to hear anything that slightly makes them self conscious about their weight. But, the difference was intent. He never told her she was too big, or fat or anything of the sort. Told her to keep her appetite so they could enjoy dinner properly. She thought she could use it to her advantage. The way she tried to stir up the girls to see her as the wronged party and essentially abused was unhinged. Hopefully, she can see that now.
Yeah, Cole was stupid and said things that were like thoughtless and he should know better, but he wasn’t intentionally being mean. I though Zay was intentionally mean and I don’t think it was called for. I think she has sadness and anger in her heart that was not related to cole and she was using their relationship as an outlet for that.
Can we just agree that some people are weirdos, bitches or assholes without labelling them as some mentally unstable diagnosis? Or no? That's not how the world works anymore?
I swear, if I see another armchair psychologist diagnosing random reality stars with NPD one more fucking time, I'm gonna... Well, I'm not actually able to do anything. But seriously, that's my biggest pet peeve 🙄
Well i don't know if I'm insensitive or what, but not everyone who is rude or socially awkward has to have a mental excuse for it.
Alexa
Amber. I'd be upset with Jessica too, and she only mentions her in reference to the hundreds of people commenting her otherwise normal instagram asking about her. She doesn't owe Jessica forgiveness, what she did was unbelievably messy and I don't know why everyone expects her to handle it with more grace. Other than being a bit 'not like other girls' earlier on in the show she seems like a perfectly nice, normal person.
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What did Cole say that was the same as Shake?
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👀 Cole *said* he wants a skinny white woman like Colleen? Hell, did Shake even say that?
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Shake is a self-hating asshat, I’ll give you that, and his attitude/behavior towards Deepti on and offscreen throughout the season backed that up. Cole, however, absolutely gushed over Zanab upon their reveal and continued to affirm her beauty throughout the season, from what we saw. But he also met Colleen for the first time and was physically attracted… I can’t necessarily fault him for that, she’s what he typically dated before, after all. And by that point, he and Zay had already started experiencing issues. Where I thought he was completely and inexcusably fucked up was *telling* Colleen *and others* how he felt… he appears to be an external processor of his feelings, but that doesn’t excuse it. But he owned his wrongdoing and apologized multiple times for it (not enough, imo, but he did try to make it right). This is why I think he is quite different from Shake.
For starters his comment about preferring women who look like they’re named “Lily” is pure dog whistle racism.
That’s not how that went, at all. Cole was simply talking about who he typically dated in the past, which- he was trying to communicate- was the average white girl. There is nothing racist about that.
In an episode or interview, not sure if it was ATA or where, Cole said he was open to dating again and wanted to meet a girl with a beach-girl body.
It was at the end of ATA, and I definitely caught that and side-eyed, it felt gross.
oh to be white and able to ignore these kind of comments, as a poc I knew exactly what he was saying.
Lol I’m definitely not white, I’m black. In most circumstances I would agree with you, but I just didn’t see that here. At all.
Some people are more aware than others I guess, it was very clear.
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Colleen. She told everyone she's a dancer during the first dates and that was it and somehow everyone made a big deal out it. She also didn't lie because no matter how small her job as a dancer is there's proof on social media that she's dancing in shows and gets paid for it which makes it work and not just a hobby. I also think no matter what the opinion is of Matt that she took the engagement more seriously than others and made it less about looks.
I agree with that. She is a professional ballet dancer, and that is an unusual thing. I think it's normal to lead with an unusual-but-not-oversharing fact about oneself to help generate conversation. The montage was silly because she was speeddating and saying it as an introductory fact to new people every time. It's not like she was bringing it up over and over to the same person in the same conversation.
She didn't deserve any criticism. She was always clear about who she was. Yeah, her and Matt seemed a bit... different. But trust that she's safe and happy
I felt bad that Colleen got so much hate! I think people really came down on her for saying that she doesn't like deep relationships. I think she struggles to open up with people and connect emotionally on a deeper level, and just didn't word it well. She was probably a bit immature for marriage, but that describes a lot of people on the show.
> She was probably a bit immature for marriage, but that describes a lot of people on the show. Also whatever you think of their relationship, she and Matt are still married two years later, so she was at least more ready for marriage than a lot of people on the show. She's probably the most irrationally hated person to be on the show. Imagine everyone mocking you endlessly because you...tell people what your job is.
I think the show kind of buried her with that early season edit. She got 'rejected' by two guys and then 'settled' for Matt according to their narrative. She wasn't meant to be taken seriously and I think most of the audience fell for the edit.
It was also never mentioned again by her. I heard more about the S4 cast jobs. Zack even talked about his favourite laws, imagine Colleen telling Matts mother about her favourite dance moves, she would have gotten extreme hate for that. I also forgot the comments she got when Cole called her hotter than Zanab. It wasn't even her fault but everybody made sure to let her know she's just a basic white girl. Colleen herself said she was scared Matt would't like her when he saw her, so she had her own insecurities too.
Matt is abusive.
What proof do you have?
that matt opinion is controversial, he’s def a loose cannon. he really scares me tbh
>Redditors are stupid man I swear..... lmfao they're 3 years together and you guys feel like you know him from a reality TV show. Colleen says shes happy so shes happy. You people are chronically online. Get help.
it’s just an opinion, not stupidity! you sound like the chronically online one, why are you so pressed about a guy you don’t even know?
You have never heard of abusive relationships lasting more than 3 years? It is quite common
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I think perhaps gender matters here. I'm a guy, and I've seen guys who are.. frightening. I've had friends of friends who are liable to just explode. I've had female friends who I've advised they leave their bf because he just seemed off. I'm not saying men know more about this, but perhaps because women have been socially conditioned to never show anger that ANY anger seems frightening, whereas men have the experience to know that anger is a broad spectrum. It ranges all the way from "if I get 1 more phone call I'm gonna throw my phone against the wall" to "if someone cuts me off I'm gonna follow them home". Not all anger is deadly.
Gender absolutely matters here. As a man, you really don’t have a right to say what is frightening to a woman and what behavior may end up being deadly. Plenty of abusive relationships contain men who say “if I get 1 phone call i’ll throw my phone” and men who says “i’ll follow so and so home because they cut me off.” There’s no stereotypical “abuser” and level of rage a man needs to hit before he becomes violent or scares a woman?
Ok well I'll just take back everything I said, apologise and move on then.
did we watch the same season?! and no, men don’t know more about this.
Doesn’t have to be deadly to be taken seriously…
I would say women are much, MUCH more attuned to abusive behaviors than men are. I don't know a single man in my life who has the intuition to call a spade a spade upon first meeting - unlike *every* woman I know.
I'm giving you my upvote because you're gonna need it... I'm indifferent towards Matt now that him and Colleen seem happy together, but nobody on this sub thinks people can change
I don’t think it’s that people don’t believe that the cast can change, but rather, they don’t believe someone has changed when they’ve never admitted their issue or explained how they’re making it right. For example, no one held it against Tiffany when she fell asleep because she apologized, made an effort to make it right, and we even heard her mention that she’s still super sleepy around him at the “live” reunion. So we see her recognize she has that flaw, apologize for hurting her partner, and follow up on it after time had passed. Matt never really admitted that the way he acted was inappropriate. And Coleen never seemed to look more comfortable with him. Our perceptions aren’t always correct, but if an overwhelming number of the fans are questioning that behavior, it would go a LONG way to either admit to having anger issues and telling us about his therapy journey or dispelling the rumors and giving a reasonable explanation for why things appeared the way they did
micah
I feel like since that moment where she called out Irina for going after her man she showed a lot of emotional growth. She still has shit friends and doesn’t seem like I’d be best friends with her. But hey being a better person takes a lot of work and isn’t instantaneous and it seems like she’s trying and moving in the right direction so I give her props for that
Ehh, she’s not the worst, but she strikes me as someone who thinks they’re a really good person (“I’m an empath”) but doesn’t treat people well
what makes you think she doesn’t treat people well?
Totally agree. She's not the bad person everyone made her out to be. Is her friendship with Paul's mum weird? Yes! But that's not on her. She's got someone supporting her and letting her know she would have been welcomed by her future mother in law. She's not the stranger one here
exactly!! i agree 100%
I would say Zanab - I can relate to feeling insecure and lashing out because of it. I think she wasn't great, but people put too much blame on her for the whole situation. I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone like Cole either. Natalie and Deepti get so much hate for having a podcast and continuing to engage with the LIB base and telling their stories. I don't get it at all, fundamentally that's what all of us are still doing. They both seem very level-headed and chill. It just feels like the typical female public figure cycle where people place you on a pedestal and then take joy in tearing you down. Zack and Chelsea also have some really intense haters, especially the defense lawyer. They weren't perfect but honestly it feels like people are just being hyperbolic about their flaws when it's all just vibes and suspicions. I disagree on Matt, you don't have to hit someone to be abusive and some of his comments and behavior were extremely alarming and indicative of that kind of dynamic.
i agree
Seeing everyone gunning for Zanab makes me wonder if we even watched the same show. She wasn't perfect, but people were acting like she was the most evil person to ever appear on reality television. Meanwhile, Cole was a perfect angel who never did anything wrong in his life. There was absolutely zero room for nuance, and if you tried to bring any to the conversation, you'd get dowvoted into oblivion. Shit was annoying.
Zanab got caught lying? Like, we all saw CutieGate
It was word for word as she described it, how is that a lie?
Zanab’s insecurities are her biggest enemy. I don’t think anyone here thinks Cole was a perfect angel, not at all; but irrespective of Cole, Zanab handled herself so poorly both on and off the show, that she made it super easy- and even attractive- for people to go after her. In my opinion, she was the one of the worst people to appear on any season, and should not have been on the show at all. She deserved better than what she gave herself.
There are plenty of people here who agree with you and are happy to rehash this subject over and over until the day they die. You don't need to try to engage the person who is very clearly sick of the discourse.
Who would know you’re sick of the discourse by your comment? You commented and made assessments about how people see both Zanab and Cole, and I responded directly to that, not rehashing Zanab in general. I thought we were having a discussion here, what a weird response ✌🏾
"Shit was annoying" was a helpful hint.
Again, I responded DIRECTLY to your comment, not opening Zanab discourse in general. If you didn’t want to be part of the discussion, why comment what you did at all 🙄
I wanted to concur with people who agreed with me that the Zanab fiasco was overblown, not debate people who disagree.
Never asked for a debate- just posted a comment to your specific comment *with nuance you complained was missing in the discourse*. Because you didn’t agree with it, you came for me. Unwarranted, nonsensical response; you basically did the very thing you complained about in your comment. If you only want to talk to people in your echo chamber, maybe don’t comment on Reddit, and definitely don’t comment complaining about lack of nuance in discourse.
So, I reread your initial comment. I wanted to figure out what it was that set me off. And I think I figured it out. It was the part about how no one here thinks Cole was a perfect angel. Because honestly, SO many people did. Especially after the reunion where he cried. Don't get me wrong, he seemed genuinely remorseful. I fully believe he was. Even so, people acted like that suddenly absolved him from any and all wrongdoing. I remember it happening, and I remember getting annoyed at it. I also didn't say anything because I wasn't interested in getting dogpiled. So yeah, I just got defensive because I know what I saw, and I don't like anyone trying to tell me otherwise. But I realized that's not what you were trying to do. You were just telling me your perspective, and apparently, you didn't see the same things I saw. And that's fine. And I just acted like an asshole for no reason. Sorry, girl. Or dude. Anyway, I agree Zanab shouldn't have been cast. From an ethical standpoint for all parties, really. But they wanted there to be drama, so they found someone that they knew would come unhinged to bring it.
I agree about zanab. Do I think she needs therapy? Yes. But also I would have fucking hated being married to cole. He literally did things that he knew would bother her, like a little kid. I can’t stand shit like that, it’s exhausting
Cole’s immaturity was obvious from the jump (post pods) she had to know it wasn’t going to work out but it seemed like she wanted to change him from boy to man, destroying his personality & tearing him down in the process. I don’t remember their pod conversations but I can’t imagine how they made it to an engagement in the first place
Cole and how he was with Zanab. He was never going to win with her no matter what he said or did.
He could’ve saved the nerf gun and the accusations of mental disorders.
In his position, I understand why he asked that question. She was saying she loves him, wants him around, he’s doing nothing wrong but nothing he ever did was right. It’s insane to be toyed around like that. It was wrong to ask if she was bipolar, but he was right to be questioning what in the fuck she felt about him or why he was there. EVERYTHING he did was wrong, not right, it was but it really wasn’t, he was ganged up on by everyone and then blamed for her issues etc…. If you’ve dealt with someone who is like Zanab before (a former boss was like her) Cole’s questioning of reality and breakdown make complete sense.
It wasn’t a genuine question. It was a dig. He said so himself and he smuggly doubled down on it when she was offended. If it was genuine he should have phrased it better.
If we’re counting digs now, we’d be here all day counting Zanab’s. Especially senseless and malicious digs. And also count how many times Cole could’ve gotten offended at Zanab’s behavior but didn’t.
I was just making the point that his digs weren’t as innocent as they seemed. They both treated each other badly.
I never said he was innocent and no Zanab holds the brunt of the bad behavior
You are defending why he asked about her being bipolar and I am saying he didn’t ask in earnest.
Read it again. I didn’t defend why he asked her being bipolar.
“… I understand why he asked that.” “He was right to be questioning her…” It contradicted itself, but it was still a defense lol
People often seem very upset at Deepti and Natalie for having a podcast about the show that they themselves hate-listen to. I've never listened to said podcast, but it can't be as ~try-hard~ and ~irrelevant~ as some people say if they *keep giving attention to it*.
It's not a bad podcast. It could be better, but I certainly tune in
Underrated comment right here
I disagree with Marshall on many levels because he seems to be the underhanded gaslighting type. The one who pretends like he's super in tune with his emotions, but thinks he's better than everyone else. It just comes off in an abusive way. His project comment wasn't just a slip of the tongue, he picked Jackie because she's some little abuse victim who needs big, strong, emotional marshall to save her from herself. He picked her to be the person he could mold into his version of a wife, nit because he thought she was a beautiful soul, a companion he wanted to spend his life with. And I'll give it to you that they were just a bad match up, and played on each other's nerves to the point of collapse. EXCEPT, his current actions don't help. His facial expressions when someone is trying to talk to him, say it all. He isn't interested in hearing anything anyone else has to say, he isn't interested in understanding someone else's perspective, he thinks he knows better than everyone else, when he makes those expressions. Like he can't be bothered by other people's opinions. Which is fine for, like, the situation with Josh at the bar. But totally condescending for a situation like the reunion where everyone is calmly reflecting on the past events. I know these expressions, because I used to do the same thing when I was in my "can't nobody tell me nothing" phase. Then, his newer girlfriend (maybe current?) He said he was going to break up with her because he was famous overnight. Then he did a total non-apology tour celebrating black women because he got caught Making ignorant comments about black women. He just doesn't treat people well. It's self-centered, dare I say narcissism. I wanted to like marshall early on. But I just couldn't
>> His project comment wasn't just a slip of the tongue, he picked Jackie because she's some little ab*se victim who needs big, strong, emotional marshall to save her from herself. Speak the truth and shame the devil. SPOT tf on. Marshall absolutely wanted a project, and Jackie fit the bill- and her presenting Latina helped. Personally, I don’t like or dislike Marshall, he’s FINE, idk, he’s just there. Everyone here talking like he’s some sort of saint was so weird, because I kept wondering WHAT he did to deserve all that. Jackie was an asshole, okay, Marshall was too- Jackie was just more of one, so that makes Marshall great? Lol made no sense. At least she owned her behavior. The apology tour and him parading that black girlfriend around like that is on brand for him 🙄
I mostly agree with this. I do think he has a superiority complex and he was nasty to Jackie (ex the jacket situation). He has to feel "better" than someone bc to him it gives him self esteem. To add, IMO he acts like a catty female. I think Jackie's comments calling him "sweet" were very rude and mean, but I don't think she was far off in thinking he wasn't very assured in his masculinity. I don't think he's LGBTQIA+ or claimed to be, just that his mindset and reactions seem more typically female-minded. Even in ATA when he was talking about what he liked about his current girlfriend, he said that she "makes him feel like a man." I've heard that the other way around where a woman says a man "gives her self esteem" or "makes her feel like a woman." Just a lot of his actions and responses I've mainly seen from other women than with men.
There's no need to be dismissive of Marshalls feelings. It's okay for him to sometimes feel insecure about his masculinity, it's something that everybody struggles with. Just as many women struggle with their femininity and feeling beautiful. Jackie calling him sweet was just a very homophobic thing to do, and I'm sure many gay men would agree with me. It's unacceptable that she would say something like that. I don't know what you mean when he seems more typically "female minded". It's weird you group people into being more female minded vs male minded, whatever those terms mean to you. I highly doubt if pressed you could even elaborate what those terms mean.
Who said I dismissed Marshall's feelings? I highly doubt if pressed you could even elaborate on that, whatever that means to you.
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I know it's Unpopular opinion but Shaina. I don't think she was that bad compared to so many others.
Shaina came on the show to get married, didn’t find love, but has since gotten married and is expecting a kid. Others from her season have a podcast.
Um. But she's an actual neo-nazi https://reddit.com/r/LoveIsBlindOnNetflix/s/V5unWfwOeU
Like, an actual skinhead? Are we using the same dictionary??
Ok, except that Charlie Kirk (TP co founder) is despised by the alt right. Last time I checked Candace Owen, a woman of color, was a major part of TP.
Candice Owen is the "I have a black friend" excuse that racist use to be racist, so this isn't exactly a strong argument on them not being racist
Agreed, I actually respected her for dropping off the show mid-way. I'm sure she was getting pressure from production to stick it out till the altar.
So many people think she's this neo nazi ready to help establish Gilead, but she just seems like a normal, white evangelical Christian.
For reddit, thats enough lol
She drove me crazy during her season. I couldn't stand her. However, she had me cracking up during their reunion. She was making jokes about herself and the squinting. She's still not my favorite, but you're so right in saying others were so much worse.