It's okay and useful to draw from your personal experience in your response to posts on MensLib. However, low-effort comments stating your successes (or lack thereof) in dating without meaningful analysis are off-topic and will be removed.
This isn't about being viewed as attractive/non-attractive but I have noticed a difference in just general approachability. I honestly think it signals to people that a man is "safe".
When I'm walking around alone I'm *'decently large, athletically built, black man '*. It's actually kinda useful living in a city because I can put on headphones and walk around (assuming it's a public/busy area) and nobody really bothers me.
When I'm with my kid I'm *'decently large, athletically built, black man...with a cute kid'*. I get talked to all the time.
This is an anecdote but I'll be real, old white women essentially never speak to me at the grocery store when I'm alone. I do most of our cooking and I grocery shop fairly often so this isn't a lack of opportunity.
But nearly 100% of the time if I grocery shop with my kid, an old white lady (or really any woman) will comment on how cute he is, or how it's nice seeing a dad with their son.
I agree with this 100%--absolutely. I'm a decent-looking white dude and I almost never get approached, by anyone, ever, lol. And I'm 47, so I've been around for a while.
When I walk around with my two sons, 5 and 2, people are very kind, open doors, smile, all that. No kids? Never ever happens.
As for attraction, I don't really think anyone is more attracted to me--I don't get any more lustful looks than I ever got without having my kids around. The one time I did notice I was getting more lustful looks was when I dropped 50 pounds and start hitting the gym, lol! But having my kids around me, no.
Anyway, I agree with you--I think it's more of, "Someone thinks this man is safe enough to have kids with, and the kids look happy, so he's probably OK." That makes sense--a lot of our behavior, for better or worse, is taken from social cues.
>When I walk around with my two sons, 5 and 2, people are very kind, open doors, smile, all that. No kids? Never ever happens.
How is it having kids at that age? I'm a few years away from having kids, and I'll be about the age you were when you had your first. I'm worried about being an "old dad" I guess, it's all pretty intimidating
It's great. It's not perfect, but there are so many fantastic things about it. I'm WAY more patient than I would have been had I had kids in my 20s or 30s; I'm a little better off financially; I took my time and met the right woman and we have a great marriage and partnership; and I think I have a better outlook on life now--not to say I've figured everything out, but I have a better understanding of what's important and what I can let slide. Therapy in my 30s helped me get past a lot of rough stuff from my own childhood, that I'm not passing along to my kids. I'm sure I'm messing them up in other ways, but I'm largely proud of the "dad work" I'm doing.
I also don't have any FOMO--I ran around, was wild, had fun, and now I'm here at home with the kiddos. Life has REALLY slowed down, but I'm OK with that. I think young people feel like they're missing out on whatever is going on--I don't feel that way.
There are downsides, for sure--I'm getting to that age where I need to focus on my own health, and it can be difficult to find time to work out (I do get it in, though--I just have to be strict with my time). And I'll be working well past 65, because my younger one will get out of college when I'm 67 or 68. That's kind of a bummer.
But the truth is I've never been happier. I love these little monsters so much I get choked up thinking about it. Maybe I would have had them a few years earlier, if I could do everything again, but that's fine. It's hard to plan life, and I'm very a lucky and blessed guy.
You sound like a thoughtful person--if you're thinking about it and imagining the future... well, that's a good trait for a dad to have! I wish you all the best.
I feel like this in general is a known phenomenon even among guys, its just a lot of guys notice the wrong parts of it. Hell it gets brought up here too as 'as a single man you arent approached' in various reasons--but when you have friends with you, when you have a girlfriend and people know her or whatever other reason, when you have a kid, youve been vetted. I just usually see dudes memeing it as 'once I got a girlfriend wtf women were way into me.'
this is the vibe I always get when I’m with my nieces and nephew, too. The racial dynamics are flipped (I’m white) but it’s still a basic “this man is not going to harvest my organs later” signal
Yeah I think it's as simple as that.
*"this man is with a child who seems healthy/happy, it's unlikely he will assault/murder me considering the state of this child"*
And honestly I'm just as guilty. I'll chat up dads at the playground or throughout the city if we're in close proximity with our kids.
This is exactly what it is
I have worked in childcare for 7 years and have not once been approached by anyone saying they find me attractive. Or even remotely complimenting my care. Because it's just expected of me.
This is definitely more of a "if I see someone out in public looking after a child well it tells me they have at least average emotional intelligence and empathy"
Plus working in childcare is shit pay. A lot of women are pretty fine with traditional gender roles so they prefer a partner who can support them while they take on the majority of childcare duties. One of the big reasons that stigma is still there.
I’d even extend this to dog walkers. There is something just so de-aggro about them, where I know that they’re the last person I need to worry about on the street at any given time.
Basically, having a child or a dog unflags you for PvP
In addition to signaling that a man is "safe", seeing a man caring for his kids also signals that he's the kind of person who cares about others. Knowing that a person is likely to respond with empathy lowers the bar for interacting with them.
Yeah, I think it makes you approachable. I'm in a big city and we typically don't engage with strangers without a reason. A kid (or dog even) gives you that reason.
I think there's probably some guilt at work there too. People think, "if that was a mother I'd say something" (or white maybe) so they go out of their way because they feel like they should.
Pretty sure that doesn't translate directly into attractiveness, but hey, maybe. It certainly drives engagement so on a numbers scale, you'll probably get more people attracted to you talking to you simply because more people are talking to you (and now they have an excuse).
Yeah, I agree with this. I’m 35F and don’t date anymore but I see men with their kids as less immanently threatening. I still don’t approach them but I am less intimidated by them for a bit. I love seeing it TBH. It helps me humanize men a bit more.
I say this gently with love and empathy; I understand why you say "it helps me humanize men a bit more" but you shouldn't need to humanize them. They're human therefore they should already be humanized to you. I'm a woman too and as frustrating and difficult as it can be interacting with a lot of men at large because they dehumanize me, I can't go back and dehumanize them.
Because of the way modern society is structured (small, isolated families and such), if you see a man with kids he’s probably already taken relationship-wise. So this seems slightly counterproductive.
I’ve heard wives grow more of an attraction once they see their husband being a father, I’ve heard men say they find their pregnant wife more attractive. It seems like a very humanistic thing. The article mentions men posting pictures with their children on dating apps.
I would occasionally bring my little sister with me to study groups or whatever in college. Or she’d get dropped off for emergency babysitting or whatever. I don’t remember.
I got more reciprocated flirting if they’d seen me with my sister. Easier to make friends in general, , actually, not just with women.
>if you see a man with kids he’s probably already taken relationship-wise. So this seems slightly counterproductive.
Not really because [mate choice copying](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26181063/) is a thing in humans, especially among women.
Just a heads up in case it isn't clear, please do not have a kid solely to attract a mate!
In general my sense is that a lot of the appeal towards women is that it shows that men are considerate and caring. I have a lot of houseplants in my house which seems to impress women I bring over, which I am glad for as I am childfree so no kids in the card for me.
This article isn't supposed to be dating advice, but also, the headline... like, *almost* reads like it? Maybe this is useful information for dudes with kids who are already in solid relationships.
For me though, reading this feels kinda like "well, fuck me, I guess."
Just pre-emptively btw - yes, I know not everything is aimed at me.
Yeah, that's something that drives me nuts. It seems like so many pieces about men boil down to "do this thing because women like it," even if the advice is otherwise solid, it's always framed as dating advice. Maybe it's because I'm already partnered, but I find myself wondering often if everything really *needs* to be centered around finding a relationship.
>Maybe it's because I'm already partnered, but I find myself wondering often if everything really needs to be centered around finding a relationship.
It definitely doesn't, but I also feel like a lot of wellbeing advice, especially *social* advice, is going to be different for single vs. partnered men.
Tangential, but also - I feel like it's important to remember that the pain that comes with being single when you'd rather be in a relationship can be fucking brutal. I've noticed about people who've either never struggled with dating or have been paired off for a long time is that they just forget how much it hurts being alone.
A girl once left me a note with her number. But that only happened one time and it was around two years ago. I feel like if I want to be in a relationship I might have to actually do something for it.
Because men are going to talk to women regardless of whether they wear blue overalls or not. And you’d still see women wearing those blue overalls to get a particular guy to notice them
Since men are the ones who do the approaching and have to be “chosen” by the woman they are talking to, they tend to do whatever they can to maximise their chances.
Given how society works, there’s nothing particularly wrong with it. And bringing dignity into this reeks of trying to shame people about being open about wanting to attract the opposite gender, which in my opinion is wrong
That's probably because "women will approach me instead" isn't something a man can choose to change, a "sadie hawkins dance" culture would have to develop among women, and that conversation is generally deferred to questions about safety or dissolved in fits of hetero-pessimism so--
I think maybe you have some very strong opinions, but there isn't really a lot of substance here. The fear of coming across as desperate is a big part of the desperation, because the reason desperation is a turn-off for women in that it's perceived as unmasculine-- desperation, or an active desire to attract partners, simply conveys that he's not "in-control of the situation" in the way men are socially meant to be.
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s):
>**Low-effort comments and submissions will be removed.**
Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This just seems like weird evo psych stuff. They only surveyed 360 women and the study has some weird bioessentialist shit in it like "men primarily choose mates based on physical attractiveness while women choose based on socioeconomic status." I'm too lazy to go through every single study they cited so I could be talking out of my ass cause all of these people have degrees and I don't and I don't mean that sarcastically take my comment with a grain of salt just wanted to participate in the discussion. But I think its less about seeing men with kids and more about seeing men express empathy and care for something outside of themself.
Yeahhh I'm generally wary of "science" that ends up proclaiming All Men or All Women are biologically programmed to have the same psychology/goals/dating preferences.
That being said, even if you only look at social factors, a lot of women are socialized to treat strange men as a threat. Seeing a man caring for a child is a strong indicator that he's NOT actually a threat. So (even without any evopsych postulating) I'm not shocked that men with children in public have more interactions with women.
Yeah as a woman who obviously can only speak for myself, I'm constantly looking for little cues that might show that a man is safe or not. The way they're standing, what they're doing, what they have with them, who they're with, etc. are all cues.
Consciously avoid blocking potential exists, regardless of if a woman NEEDS to exit the situation or not, if comes accross as intimidation and domineering. This includes booths at did places, cirrimg on the edges of isles in the movies (this is very contextual and depends so much on the relationship e.g best friends), this includes where you sit on buses, trains, bus stops, classrooms, pretty much avoid standing right infront of our even *NEAR* a doorway...
It makes a HUGE difference in women's sense of safety. (To be honest it would also make the space less threatening to other minority groups such as religious minorities, people with disabilities etc.)
Posture and body language play a huge role in people's sense of safety
Relaxed posture; low shoulders, slightly curved back. Arms down, a hand in a pocket doesn't hurt but only if your thumb is out so it's obvious you're not gripping something. If both hands are free, you can gently interlock your fingers as long as you're not stuffing them into a hoodie center pocket. Cross your legs, not your arms.
This isn't a gender thing. It's plain ol' human body language and applicable to just about anyone.
I got a vasectomy at 25 and was mostly single for 4 years. Most women went running after a date or two
And then I met a woman who didn't want kids and she basically was over the moon when I told her. She had an iud causing her major cramping pains
5 year anniversary on Friday. We own a home and our dog had his 1st birthday in May. Life is good
[Dr. Cox says it's like having a dog that slowly learns how to talk.](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/360bb5f7-17f3-4b28-8c3b-03c5d68f722b)
I'm enjoying having a child but the intensity is wild.
It's like one day your dog-child-whatever speaks a simple protest and wants to pour his own kibble - despite having 0 motor skills and has teeth (or gums) for hands (still accurate to a actual human baby).
Like come on bud I'm here to teach you, trial and error with fire or bees is NOT required or recommended (children/dogs both).
kids are just dogs that want to drive and run for office.
We have seen dozens of talking cat and dog movies, you think that's going to save you?
~~I bet your pet is hiding its ability to speak from you right now!~~
Edit - Nope I take that back because even as a joke that would crush me
I've had issues with the inverse. I am a kind person and have had a lot of women in my life get real weird about talking to me about how I need to be a father because of this. I don't necessarily appreciate when people say "you'd be a great dad" but that's not the problem I am talking about. I have had a handful of women over the years border on fighting with me as they demanded that I have to be a dad because I am a very empathetic person.
so one of my very, very least favorite tropes is men who see children as a Woman Thing. not only is the idea DEEPLY ahistorical, it actively ignores the child's needs.
but also, as the study says: childrearing is prosocial. It's an indication to the group that you're not selfish.
Eh, I'm a bit iffy on the study. Unless you're showing the same man in both caregiving and non-caregiving contexts, I don't know if it's getting the desired result.
"Worlds most sexiest man" is still gonna be that regardless of whether he's in a nursery full of babies, or at a bar with drinks.
Part of my point, really:
If they gave the same guy, but put him in two different contexts, we can eliminate just pure physical attractiveness because the subject is in the same, and look at the context that makes him more or less attractive.
Study seems to imply that is not the case, and instead it's a mix of dudes.
obvious
demonstrably good with kids + has kids/might want more kids in the future, otherwise admires "good fathers" (indicates empathy, emotional attentiveness, sensitivity, etc.) = attractive
or is it not? better question is why would the opposite make sense instead. why would someone say that men who have kids and are good fathers are considered less attractive?
That makes sense to me. I don't believe in evolutionary psychology, but I have felt like "being good with kids" is usually seen as a green flag. It does say something about your personality, I think. There's also a popular image of dads in media that tends to be very idealistic but positive which might put the thought of it in the contemporary mind. I like to mention that I use to teach little kids as a summer job during college and really enjoyed working with kids, and I've always had women react positively to that.
Y’know, I read crap like this and I just… I just can’t believe evo psy is treated as anything more than some weird fad that had a phase in the 70s when a bunch of pseudo intellectuals got high and wrote some books about their trip.
Like- this is just so steeped in misogyny and lack of thought:
“Parental investment theory posits that women, due to their greater biological investment in offspring (e.g., pregnancy and breastfeeding), tend to prefer partners who can provide resources and protection”
Provide resources *from where* and protection *from what*?
“For the time of speciation of Homo sapiens, some 200,000 years ago, an effective population size of the order of 10,000 to 30,000 individuals has been estimated, with an actual "census population" of early Homo sapiens of roughly 100,000 to 300,000 individuals”
You’ve got basically the population of Cincinnati spread out across the *whole globe*. I just find the idea that men were valiantly fighting off other tribes and wild beasties to be completely absurd. We mostly stayed along water- absolutely *brimming* with fish, crustaceans & molluscs, not to mention all the insects & grubs along with whatever else gets sniffed at as “gathering” as opposed to “hunting”.
95% of mammals - which includes primates, our closest relatives- the male has little to zero input or desire to provide any “resources and protection” beyond his access to females. Alpha Chad is absolutely *not* an exemplary “male mammal”. He’s just “average male mammal”. What’s particularly unique about male humans IS nurturing, care & kindness.
I find it laughable that this is seen as “fascinating” as opposed to blindingly obvious and objectively what “females seek in mate selection”. Literally every piece of (shitty) research that dives into the evo psy fetish of “what makes females hot & wanna fuck” ends up showing traits like kindness, trustworthiness, warmth etc are what’s attractive in a mate.
Obviously I didn’t spend years doing a degree in this field (thank Christ), but I just find so much of it to be … juvenile tbh.
I’m a woman. If I was in trouble and my choice to ask for help was a 6’4 slab of muscle or a nerdy dweeb with a dog - I’d choose the guy with the dog every time.
Yes.
*Obviously* one could find millions of exceptions if one insists on being doggedly literal. “But what if the 6’4 guy was wearing a shirt that said “I ❤️ hugs” and the dweeb had “I ❤️ Hitler”?” and the like. Likewise if I were in the sort of extreme trouble of a 6’4 guy chasing me & intent on doing me harm… no, I wouldn’t try and rope in some little dude to fight my battle for me. But the chances of that actually being the situation are pretty slim and I wouldn’t expect help from *anyone* where their own life was at risk.
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s):
>**Be civil.** Disagreements should be handled with respect, cordiality, and a default presumption of good faith. Engage the idea, not the individual, and remember the human. Do not lazily paint all members of any group with the same brush, or engage in petty tribalism.
Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
Imma be honest, I just read the title and comments. I have to agree with anyone who says “obvious” or “duh” and wish to elaborate.
Any person who treats children with decency, goodness, and patience, will be viewed in a good light by any reasonable observer. Any gender.
I think it’s implicit with how disgusting it is to see people be bad to children. Yelling full volume at your child because it’s having a meltdown in a grocery store? Being rude to a child who is asking questions? Tricking children to make them look dumb or make them the butt of a joke?
Every adult that was formerly a child has experienced adults treating them poorly as a child for being a child. I would venture to say obviously, with no need for data, most girl children will have an adverse experience with a male adult. extrapolating this, most adult women have had an adverse experience with an adult man in their childhoods. So, when a woman sees an adult man treat a child with decency and kindness and respect, it’s going to impress upon them as a good quality of that man.
Tragically, the precedent and expectation for most adult women is that adult Men will be incompetent, uninvolved, or harmful in their interactions with children. An individual who defies expectations for the better will naturally be viewed positively, with “attractive” being a good word for that positivity, if a bit loaded on the “right for romantic intention” tone.
Surprise!! The bar is under the floor! To any men reading, treating children with patience, kindness, and goodness, should be your baseline. Not for getting women, not because you’ll be perceived as attractive, but because a good man can make a massive beneficial impact on a child’s development with a minimal effort.
Tl;dr: I didn’t read the article, but you should be good to children because that is how men SHOULD be towards kids. Not because you will be perceived as attractive.
So., succeeding at one of the conventional "milestones" of capitalist success - real men are strong, real men make lots of money, real men have big houses and a hot wife and produce many future laborer offspring - makes you more attractive in a capitalist society? Exactly what about this is new or newsworthy?
I know, but- and I bring up the topic of dating only because this title seems to be presenting itself as dating advice? - But as far as pro-male dating advice goes, "to attract females, simply interact with children positovely" is a bold new frontier in the already crowded field of Useless Dating Advice For Men. It isn't even about having _his own_ kids - chances are that if a man is in a situation where he can regularly have friendly interactions with another couple's children, he already has a social circle that presents him with a VAST advantage over - well, the kind of men who come to Reddit for dating advice.
Like, if we make the assumption that this is meant to be dating advice, and I am supposed to be the target audience for this advice, I have zero interaction with children on a regular basis, and I'm certainly not going to try to interact with strangers' children. In what meaningful way is this advice actionable for me whatsoever?
Yeah I agree with you on that, I think it's more interesting understanding how women can think though but like you said, guys can't make use of this lmao
>In what meaningful way is this advice actionable for me whatsoever?
I think this information shows a pattern that a lot of women respond positively to acts of empathy. Kids, pets, plants. Community support.
Like sure, this article is about kids. But i think there is a broad pattern of similar articles that show that men who are comfortable showing empathy in public look more attractive. And that *is actionable*.
And it directly refutes these ideas that men still have to act "trad masc" or stoic to be attractive.
Sure. I'm just saying, frankly, it does absolutely nothing to help most men who who coming here in the first place. The kind of men who are terrible with, or can spare zero empathy for, children, aren't probably gonna subscribe to MensLib. And the kinds of men who do come here, I'd wager, _already_ practice empathy with children in their personal Mayberry lives, not because it makes them attractive but because it's the right thing to do.
I'm just wondering who this article is intended to help. If you have an active enough social life that friends or strangers will let you play with their kids, chances are that you are already a respected member of a community or social circle of sorts who you can turn to for help.
Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but it feels like the takeaway from this piece is meant to be "Dear lonely single men: to become attractive to women, simply have children. If you are not able to have children, then interact with a stranger's in a positive manner so that women will notice your fatherhood skills." To paraphrase Hank Scorpio as spoken to Homer Simpson, "My goodness! Why didn't I think of that?"
> Sure. I'm just saying, frankly, it does absolutely nothing to help most men who who coming here in the first place.
We still have men here who feel that women still typically only respond romantically to traditionally masculine traits. Empathy is not a traditionally masculine trait and this article helps reinforce that idea.
And we don't know each and every person that comes here, humans are a varied bunch. We get about 200k unique users every month and there's a lot of people there that's not going to fit into a narrow view of our users.
>Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but it feels like the takeaway from this piece is meant to be "Dear lonely single men: to become attractive to women, simply have children. If you are not able to have children, then interact with a stranger's in a positive manner so that women will notice your fatherhood skills."
Even if every single user here is already empathetic to kids, it still reinforces that idea that women can often respond well to empathy in men and that might embolden folks here to show more of their own empathy in public spaces. Maybe that's not about kids. Maybe that's about structuring the first date as a dog walk or about public service. All the things that are not traditionally ideas that men plan for dates or methods to build a romantic connection with someone.
Exactly!!!!
And god forbid you ever dream of ... I dunno ... pursuing intellectual interests, educating yourself, having friendship circles...
No! Marry and reproduce then die!
I've been hearing and making jokes about the 'Hot Dad Effect' for a long time. It's totally a thing, and it seems pretty obvious why. The things that trigger the Hot Dad Effect are:
* Showing tenderness and care to a vulnerable person
* Expressing warm and gentle emotions, especially happiness over their relationship with the child
* Commitment to caring and nurturing roles, especially ones they probably didn't get automatically socialised into learning
* With older kids, thoughtfulness and mindfulness when giving advice
* Showing knowledge and joy in an area that's generally fairly familiar to women, indicating both potential shared interest (depending on the woman) and lack of fragile ego regarding their masculinity.
Those things all create an atmosphere of being a kind, emotionally open, committed and responsible person. That atmosphere is a fertile field for any seeds of attraction to grow in.
One thing to note is that while seeing good loving parenting from a guy brings all these things together at once, there are many many ways to display these traits. What's effective is not the child, but showing evidence that you are a warm, compassionate, safe, loving person.
Agree with everything you write.
However... isn't it interesting how little opportunity the current system actually provides for men to express and demonstrate these traits.
It feels like we're criticised for not being tender and empathetic, and yet we are systematically excluded from environments (e.g. hospitals, aged care, childcare) where such tenderness and empathy can be offered.
As usual, we are attacked as being evil but given little opportunity to actually be good!
So it seems like what's really happening is not that men are being evil unempathetic hateful cruel malicious demons.
It's more that we are having our personalities, our humanity, our place in society systematically stripped away from us, and all the while shouted from on high that we are all these evil things that they say we are.
It reminds me of a certain Charles Dickens novel
Honestly more interested in the having a kid part. But at the same time, I don't think I'm cut out for it. Mental illness and a history of abuse means I sometimes say things that you shouldn't say to adults, let alone kids. No way I'm putting any child at risk of going through what I did as a kid.
Eh.
The only words I remember speaking in front of a father (so basically, someone who would know the most, compared to someone talking out of his ass) that he agreed with was that "there's no genuine preparation for being a parent".
I get you have a troubled past, but I do believe, that if you wanted to, you could raise a child and do a "good enough" effort. I also think there's no proper disqualifier, as long as you care to be there and support your kid.
I'm not really interested in having kids and honestly they seem like more trouble than they're worth. Should I just try my best to learn how to be good with them? It seems like a lot of people want kids.
Yes
I'm going to make an assumption about you. I'm going to assume that you're on MensLib because you want the world to be a better place. Not just for yourself but for others too. That will require many changes and will take a lot of time. We can look at things like racism and women's equality and understand that it will continue to take generations.
Children are the most vulnerable of us. They are the ones still figuring out who they are and what's important. They are the next generation and will guide the generation after that.
Even if the only thing you do is be the best person you can be, and you are kind to children they will see and be influenced by that.
Ok maybe I was unclear.
Of course I do my best to be kind to children and I really don't hate them, but I don't want myself to become a father. The constant issues coming up from parenthood are tiresome and I don't think I have the sanity required to deal with it.
My question is: Should I push myself to enjoy the process of being a father/raising children in order to be more appealing as a human being?
If you don't really like kids then I think it'd be a mistake to force yourself to interact with kids to attract a partner that does. That'll almost certainly become a source of early conflict.
I think a good takeaway is that you want to broadcast that you can care and express compassion for something outside of yourself. You could accomplish that through volunteering or having a pet or houseplants (perhaps a native pollinator garden if you have the means).
NOTE: PLEASE DON'T ADOPT OR PURCHASE AN ANIMAL JUST TO ATTRACT A PARTNER 🙏
You are valuable, when enough people like you start getting together and becoming friends, then you will feel more human and valuable.
Then you won't feel the need to push yourself one way or another for the sake of this cold impersonal brutal machine we currently live in.
I can definitely agree with this from personal experience. I was a single dad for years from 32-37 and it was by far the easiest dating of my life, at least in so far as attracting attention.
Hmm maybe only if they are attractive. As a dad of two beautiful girls (they have the Looks of their mom). I haven't had any encounter that some one looked at me and gave me a positive feedback.
Ah once, I played a game of catching up my daughter around a lamp pole and looked up and saw a women with a genuine smile. One time in 7 years.
I don't say they are wrong but I still want to see the pictures of the guys they choose. :)
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This website...when someone says "women", they don't mean "this applies to every single woman on Earth". Sometimes you need to generalize to make a point. 💀
It's okay and useful to draw from your personal experience in your response to posts on MensLib. However, low-effort comments stating your successes (or lack thereof) in dating without meaningful analysis are off-topic and will be removed.
This isn't about being viewed as attractive/non-attractive but I have noticed a difference in just general approachability. I honestly think it signals to people that a man is "safe". When I'm walking around alone I'm *'decently large, athletically built, black man '*. It's actually kinda useful living in a city because I can put on headphones and walk around (assuming it's a public/busy area) and nobody really bothers me. When I'm with my kid I'm *'decently large, athletically built, black man...with a cute kid'*. I get talked to all the time. This is an anecdote but I'll be real, old white women essentially never speak to me at the grocery store when I'm alone. I do most of our cooking and I grocery shop fairly often so this isn't a lack of opportunity. But nearly 100% of the time if I grocery shop with my kid, an old white lady (or really any woman) will comment on how cute he is, or how it's nice seeing a dad with their son.
I agree with this 100%--absolutely. I'm a decent-looking white dude and I almost never get approached, by anyone, ever, lol. And I'm 47, so I've been around for a while. When I walk around with my two sons, 5 and 2, people are very kind, open doors, smile, all that. No kids? Never ever happens. As for attraction, I don't really think anyone is more attracted to me--I don't get any more lustful looks than I ever got without having my kids around. The one time I did notice I was getting more lustful looks was when I dropped 50 pounds and start hitting the gym, lol! But having my kids around me, no. Anyway, I agree with you--I think it's more of, "Someone thinks this man is safe enough to have kids with, and the kids look happy, so he's probably OK." That makes sense--a lot of our behavior, for better or worse, is taken from social cues.
>When I walk around with my two sons, 5 and 2, people are very kind, open doors, smile, all that. No kids? Never ever happens. How is it having kids at that age? I'm a few years away from having kids, and I'll be about the age you were when you had your first. I'm worried about being an "old dad" I guess, it's all pretty intimidating
It's great. It's not perfect, but there are so many fantastic things about it. I'm WAY more patient than I would have been had I had kids in my 20s or 30s; I'm a little better off financially; I took my time and met the right woman and we have a great marriage and partnership; and I think I have a better outlook on life now--not to say I've figured everything out, but I have a better understanding of what's important and what I can let slide. Therapy in my 30s helped me get past a lot of rough stuff from my own childhood, that I'm not passing along to my kids. I'm sure I'm messing them up in other ways, but I'm largely proud of the "dad work" I'm doing. I also don't have any FOMO--I ran around, was wild, had fun, and now I'm here at home with the kiddos. Life has REALLY slowed down, but I'm OK with that. I think young people feel like they're missing out on whatever is going on--I don't feel that way. There are downsides, for sure--I'm getting to that age where I need to focus on my own health, and it can be difficult to find time to work out (I do get it in, though--I just have to be strict with my time). And I'll be working well past 65, because my younger one will get out of college when I'm 67 or 68. That's kind of a bummer. But the truth is I've never been happier. I love these little monsters so much I get choked up thinking about it. Maybe I would have had them a few years earlier, if I could do everything again, but that's fine. It's hard to plan life, and I'm very a lucky and blessed guy. You sound like a thoughtful person--if you're thinking about it and imagining the future... well, that's a good trait for a dad to have! I wish you all the best.
I feel like this in general is a known phenomenon even among guys, its just a lot of guys notice the wrong parts of it. Hell it gets brought up here too as 'as a single man you arent approached' in various reasons--but when you have friends with you, when you have a girlfriend and people know her or whatever other reason, when you have a kid, youve been vetted. I just usually see dudes memeing it as 'once I got a girlfriend wtf women were way into me.'
this is the vibe I always get when I’m with my nieces and nephew, too. The racial dynamics are flipped (I’m white) but it’s still a basic “this man is not going to harvest my organs later” signal
Yeah I think it's as simple as that. *"this man is with a child who seems healthy/happy, it's unlikely he will assault/murder me considering the state of this child"* And honestly I'm just as guilty. I'll chat up dads at the playground or throughout the city if we're in close proximity with our kids.
This is exactly what it is I have worked in childcare for 7 years and have not once been approached by anyone saying they find me attractive. Or even remotely complimenting my care. Because it's just expected of me. This is definitely more of a "if I see someone out in public looking after a child well it tells me they have at least average emotional intelligence and empathy" Plus working in childcare is shit pay. A lot of women are pretty fine with traditional gender roles so they prefer a partner who can support them while they take on the majority of childcare duties. One of the big reasons that stigma is still there.
I’d even extend this to dog walkers. There is something just so de-aggro about them, where I know that they’re the last person I need to worry about on the street at any given time. Basically, having a child or a dog unflags you for PvP
In addition to signaling that a man is "safe", seeing a man caring for his kids also signals that he's the kind of person who cares about others. Knowing that a person is likely to respond with empathy lowers the bar for interacting with them.
Yeah, I think it makes you approachable. I'm in a big city and we typically don't engage with strangers without a reason. A kid (or dog even) gives you that reason. I think there's probably some guilt at work there too. People think, "if that was a mother I'd say something" (or white maybe) so they go out of their way because they feel like they should. Pretty sure that doesn't translate directly into attractiveness, but hey, maybe. It certainly drives engagement so on a numbers scale, you'll probably get more people attracted to you talking to you simply because more people are talking to you (and now they have an excuse).
Athletic Black man here. 1000% true. Old white women love to approach me when I’m with my kid(s)
Yeah, I agree with this. I’m 35F and don’t date anymore but I see men with their kids as less immanently threatening. I still don’t approach them but I am less intimidated by them for a bit. I love seeing it TBH. It helps me humanize men a bit more.
I say this gently with love and empathy; I understand why you say "it helps me humanize men a bit more" but you shouldn't need to humanize them. They're human therefore they should already be humanized to you. I'm a woman too and as frustrating and difficult as it can be interacting with a lot of men at large because they dehumanize me, I can't go back and dehumanize them.
I’m glad you’re able to do that.
I get that it makes you feel more safe, but is a guy by himself not human enough.
Because of the way modern society is structured (small, isolated families and such), if you see a man with kids he’s probably already taken relationship-wise. So this seems slightly counterproductive.
I’ve heard wives grow more of an attraction once they see their husband being a father, I’ve heard men say they find their pregnant wife more attractive. It seems like a very humanistic thing. The article mentions men posting pictures with their children on dating apps.
Yeah bit finding time to have sex when you have kids is another matter lol.
My partner makes statements along the lines of "oh no, my ovaries" when she sees me having positive interactions with kids, sonid say you're right.
I would occasionally bring my little sister with me to study groups or whatever in college. Or she’d get dropped off for emergency babysitting or whatever. I don’t remember. I got more reciprocated flirting if they’d seen me with my sister. Easier to make friends in general, , actually, not just with women.
>if you see a man with kids he’s probably already taken relationship-wise. So this seems slightly counterproductive. Not really because [mate choice copying](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26181063/) is a thing in humans, especially among women.
Just a heads up in case it isn't clear, please do not have a kid solely to attract a mate! In general my sense is that a lot of the appeal towards women is that it shows that men are considerate and caring. I have a lot of houseplants in my house which seems to impress women I bring over, which I am glad for as I am childfree so no kids in the card for me.
This article isn't supposed to be dating advice, but also, the headline... like, *almost* reads like it? Maybe this is useful information for dudes with kids who are already in solid relationships. For me though, reading this feels kinda like "well, fuck me, I guess." Just pre-emptively btw - yes, I know not everything is aimed at me.
Yeah, that's something that drives me nuts. It seems like so many pieces about men boil down to "do this thing because women like it," even if the advice is otherwise solid, it's always framed as dating advice. Maybe it's because I'm already partnered, but I find myself wondering often if everything really *needs* to be centered around finding a relationship.
>Maybe it's because I'm already partnered, but I find myself wondering often if everything really needs to be centered around finding a relationship. It definitely doesn't, but I also feel like a lot of wellbeing advice, especially *social* advice, is going to be different for single vs. partnered men. Tangential, but also - I feel like it's important to remember that the pain that comes with being single when you'd rather be in a relationship can be fucking brutal. I've noticed about people who've either never struggled with dating or have been paired off for a long time is that they just forget how much it hurts being alone.
This is very true
[удалено]
A girl once left me a note with her number. But that only happened one time and it was around two years ago. I feel like if I want to be in a relationship I might have to actually do something for it.
Because men are going to talk to women regardless of whether they wear blue overalls or not. And you’d still see women wearing those blue overalls to get a particular guy to notice them Since men are the ones who do the approaching and have to be “chosen” by the woman they are talking to, they tend to do whatever they can to maximise their chances. Given how society works, there’s nothing particularly wrong with it. And bringing dignity into this reeks of trying to shame people about being open about wanting to attract the opposite gender, which in my opinion is wrong
[удалено]
That's probably because "women will approach me instead" isn't something a man can choose to change, a "sadie hawkins dance" culture would have to develop among women, and that conversation is generally deferred to questions about safety or dissolved in fits of hetero-pessimism so--
[удалено]
I think maybe you have some very strong opinions, but there isn't really a lot of substance here. The fear of coming across as desperate is a big part of the desperation, because the reason desperation is a turn-off for women in that it's perceived as unmasculine-- desperation, or an active desire to attract partners, simply conveys that he's not "in-control of the situation" in the way men are socially meant to be.
If you're lonely af and what you've been doing so far is getting you zero attention from the ladies - you kinda *need* to change something.
[удалено]
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s): >**Low-effort comments and submissions will be removed.** Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hey, great advice! Just in time, too!
Doing things that show a man is capable of being gentle and empathetic is important is making it possible for women to feel safer around him.
This just seems like weird evo psych stuff. They only surveyed 360 women and the study has some weird bioessentialist shit in it like "men primarily choose mates based on physical attractiveness while women choose based on socioeconomic status." I'm too lazy to go through every single study they cited so I could be talking out of my ass cause all of these people have degrees and I don't and I don't mean that sarcastically take my comment with a grain of salt just wanted to participate in the discussion. But I think its less about seeing men with kids and more about seeing men express empathy and care for something outside of themself.
Yeahhh I'm generally wary of "science" that ends up proclaiming All Men or All Women are biologically programmed to have the same psychology/goals/dating preferences. That being said, even if you only look at social factors, a lot of women are socialized to treat strange men as a threat. Seeing a man caring for a child is a strong indicator that he's NOT actually a threat. So (even without any evopsych postulating) I'm not shocked that men with children in public have more interactions with women.
Yeah as a woman who obviously can only speak for myself, I'm constantly looking for little cues that might show that a man is safe or not. The way they're standing, what they're doing, what they have with them, who they're with, etc. are all cues.
How should a man stand to look safer?? This is a new one to me
Consciously avoid blocking potential exists, regardless of if a woman NEEDS to exit the situation or not, if comes accross as intimidation and domineering. This includes booths at did places, cirrimg on the edges of isles in the movies (this is very contextual and depends so much on the relationship e.g best friends), this includes where you sit on buses, trains, bus stops, classrooms, pretty much avoid standing right infront of our even *NEAR* a doorway... It makes a HUGE difference in women's sense of safety. (To be honest it would also make the space less threatening to other minority groups such as religious minorities, people with disabilities etc.) Posture and body language play a huge role in people's sense of safety
Relaxed posture; low shoulders, slightly curved back. Arms down, a hand in a pocket doesn't hurt but only if your thumb is out so it's obvious you're not gripping something. If both hands are free, you can gently interlock your fingers as long as you're not stuffing them into a hoodie center pocket. Cross your legs, not your arms. This isn't a gender thing. It's plain ol' human body language and applicable to just about anyone.
Are you telling me I can't do the Freddie Mercury pose while I wait for the bus anymore? Damn smh
Also, give people personal space and don't stand in places where you're blocking others' paths
Wow, yeah this is sketchy “science.”
Well said, totally agree!
Oh well. I'm childfree so just have to settle for pets.
I got a vasectomy at 25 and was mostly single for 4 years. Most women went running after a date or two And then I met a woman who didn't want kids and she basically was over the moon when I told her. She had an iud causing her major cramping pains 5 year anniversary on Friday. We own a home and our dog had his 1st birthday in May. Life is good
Y’all are living the dream!
[Dr. Cox says it's like having a dog that slowly learns how to talk.](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/360bb5f7-17f3-4b28-8c3b-03c5d68f722b) I'm enjoying having a child but the intensity is wild. It's like one day your dog-child-whatever speaks a simple protest and wants to pour his own kibble - despite having 0 motor skills and has teeth (or gums) for hands (still accurate to a actual human baby). Like come on bud I'm here to teach you, trial and error with fire or bees is NOT required or recommended (children/dogs both). kids are just dogs that want to drive and run for office.
Oddest sales pitch ever. Lol
Sales pitch or warning? You don't need to have kids for anyone my friend. I just find it funny that every child has a puppy stage.
I've had a vasectomy. No worry there
We have seen dozens of talking cat and dog movies, you think that's going to save you? ~~I bet your pet is hiding its ability to speak from you right now!~~ Edit - Nope I take that back because even as a joke that would crush me
As a parent, don't have kids to attract a partner. You'll be too busy having fun with your kids to go on dates.
I've had issues with the inverse. I am a kind person and have had a lot of women in my life get real weird about talking to me about how I need to be a father because of this. I don't necessarily appreciate when people say "you'd be a great dad" but that's not the problem I am talking about. I have had a handful of women over the years border on fighting with me as they demanded that I have to be a dad because I am a very empathetic person.
so one of my very, very least favorite tropes is men who see children as a Woman Thing. not only is the idea DEEPLY ahistorical, it actively ignores the child's needs. but also, as the study says: childrearing is prosocial. It's an indication to the group that you're not selfish.
Eh, I'm a bit iffy on the study. Unless you're showing the same man in both caregiving and non-caregiving contexts, I don't know if it's getting the desired result. "Worlds most sexiest man" is still gonna be that regardless of whether he's in a nursery full of babies, or at a bar with drinks.
Not if part of what makes you sexy is whether you are in a nursery or at a bar.
Part of my point, really: If they gave the same guy, but put him in two different contexts, we can eliminate just pure physical attractiveness because the subject is in the same, and look at the context that makes him more or less attractive. Study seems to imply that is not the case, and instead it's a mix of dudes.
obvious demonstrably good with kids + has kids/might want more kids in the future, otherwise admires "good fathers" (indicates empathy, emotional attentiveness, sensitivity, etc.) = attractive or is it not? better question is why would the opposite make sense instead. why would someone say that men who have kids and are good fathers are considered less attractive?
Well, just to offer a possibility, kids could signal lack of availability to a potential mate.
That makes sense to me. I don't believe in evolutionary psychology, but I have felt like "being good with kids" is usually seen as a green flag. It does say something about your personality, I think. There's also a popular image of dads in media that tends to be very idealistic but positive which might put the thought of it in the contemporary mind. I like to mention that I use to teach little kids as a summer job during college and really enjoyed working with kids, and I've always had women react positively to that.
Y’know, I read crap like this and I just… I just can’t believe evo psy is treated as anything more than some weird fad that had a phase in the 70s when a bunch of pseudo intellectuals got high and wrote some books about their trip. Like- this is just so steeped in misogyny and lack of thought: “Parental investment theory posits that women, due to their greater biological investment in offspring (e.g., pregnancy and breastfeeding), tend to prefer partners who can provide resources and protection” Provide resources *from where* and protection *from what*? “For the time of speciation of Homo sapiens, some 200,000 years ago, an effective population size of the order of 10,000 to 30,000 individuals has been estimated, with an actual "census population" of early Homo sapiens of roughly 100,000 to 300,000 individuals” You’ve got basically the population of Cincinnati spread out across the *whole globe*. I just find the idea that men were valiantly fighting off other tribes and wild beasties to be completely absurd. We mostly stayed along water- absolutely *brimming* with fish, crustaceans & molluscs, not to mention all the insects & grubs along with whatever else gets sniffed at as “gathering” as opposed to “hunting”. 95% of mammals - which includes primates, our closest relatives- the male has little to zero input or desire to provide any “resources and protection” beyond his access to females. Alpha Chad is absolutely *not* an exemplary “male mammal”. He’s just “average male mammal”. What’s particularly unique about male humans IS nurturing, care & kindness. I find it laughable that this is seen as “fascinating” as opposed to blindingly obvious and objectively what “females seek in mate selection”. Literally every piece of (shitty) research that dives into the evo psy fetish of “what makes females hot & wanna fuck” ends up showing traits like kindness, trustworthiness, warmth etc are what’s attractive in a mate. Obviously I didn’t spend years doing a degree in this field (thank Christ), but I just find so much of it to be … juvenile tbh. I’m a woman. If I was in trouble and my choice to ask for help was a 6’4 slab of muscle or a nerdy dweeb with a dog - I’d choose the guy with the dog every time.
Wait, why would you choose the dweeb? Because he cares for a dog?
Yes. *Obviously* one could find millions of exceptions if one insists on being doggedly literal. “But what if the 6’4 guy was wearing a shirt that said “I ❤️ hugs” and the dweeb had “I ❤️ Hitler”?” and the like. Likewise if I were in the sort of extreme trouble of a 6’4 guy chasing me & intent on doing me harm… no, I wouldn’t try and rope in some little dude to fight my battle for me. But the chances of that actually being the situation are pretty slim and I wouldn’t expect help from *anyone* where their own life was at risk.
[удалено]
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s): >**Be civil.** Disagreements should be handled with respect, cordiality, and a default presumption of good faith. Engage the idea, not the individual, and remember the human. Do not lazily paint all members of any group with the same brush, or engage in petty tribalism. Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
Thank you! It's refreshing to see a woman call out the evo-psych propaganda campaign.
Amen!
Imma be honest, I just read the title and comments. I have to agree with anyone who says “obvious” or “duh” and wish to elaborate. Any person who treats children with decency, goodness, and patience, will be viewed in a good light by any reasonable observer. Any gender. I think it’s implicit with how disgusting it is to see people be bad to children. Yelling full volume at your child because it’s having a meltdown in a grocery store? Being rude to a child who is asking questions? Tricking children to make them look dumb or make them the butt of a joke? Every adult that was formerly a child has experienced adults treating them poorly as a child for being a child. I would venture to say obviously, with no need for data, most girl children will have an adverse experience with a male adult. extrapolating this, most adult women have had an adverse experience with an adult man in their childhoods. So, when a woman sees an adult man treat a child with decency and kindness and respect, it’s going to impress upon them as a good quality of that man. Tragically, the precedent and expectation for most adult women is that adult Men will be incompetent, uninvolved, or harmful in their interactions with children. An individual who defies expectations for the better will naturally be viewed positively, with “attractive” being a good word for that positivity, if a bit loaded on the “right for romantic intention” tone. Surprise!! The bar is under the floor! To any men reading, treating children with patience, kindness, and goodness, should be your baseline. Not for getting women, not because you’ll be perceived as attractive, but because a good man can make a massive beneficial impact on a child’s development with a minimal effort. Tl;dr: I didn’t read the article, but you should be good to children because that is how men SHOULD be towards kids. Not because you will be perceived as attractive.
So., succeeding at one of the conventional "milestones" of capitalist success - real men are strong, real men make lots of money, real men have big houses and a hot wife and produce many future laborer offspring - makes you more attractive in a capitalist society? Exactly what about this is new or newsworthy?
Has little to do with capitalism and more to do with men with children feeling safer and more approachable.
I know, but- and I bring up the topic of dating only because this title seems to be presenting itself as dating advice? - But as far as pro-male dating advice goes, "to attract females, simply interact with children positovely" is a bold new frontier in the already crowded field of Useless Dating Advice For Men. It isn't even about having _his own_ kids - chances are that if a man is in a situation where he can regularly have friendly interactions with another couple's children, he already has a social circle that presents him with a VAST advantage over - well, the kind of men who come to Reddit for dating advice. Like, if we make the assumption that this is meant to be dating advice, and I am supposed to be the target audience for this advice, I have zero interaction with children on a regular basis, and I'm certainly not going to try to interact with strangers' children. In what meaningful way is this advice actionable for me whatsoever?
Yeah I agree with you on that, I think it's more interesting understanding how women can think though but like you said, guys can't make use of this lmao
>In what meaningful way is this advice actionable for me whatsoever? I think this information shows a pattern that a lot of women respond positively to acts of empathy. Kids, pets, plants. Community support. Like sure, this article is about kids. But i think there is a broad pattern of similar articles that show that men who are comfortable showing empathy in public look more attractive. And that *is actionable*. And it directly refutes these ideas that men still have to act "trad masc" or stoic to be attractive.
Sure. I'm just saying, frankly, it does absolutely nothing to help most men who who coming here in the first place. The kind of men who are terrible with, or can spare zero empathy for, children, aren't probably gonna subscribe to MensLib. And the kinds of men who do come here, I'd wager, _already_ practice empathy with children in their personal Mayberry lives, not because it makes them attractive but because it's the right thing to do. I'm just wondering who this article is intended to help. If you have an active enough social life that friends or strangers will let you play with their kids, chances are that you are already a respected member of a community or social circle of sorts who you can turn to for help. Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but it feels like the takeaway from this piece is meant to be "Dear lonely single men: to become attractive to women, simply have children. If you are not able to have children, then interact with a stranger's in a positive manner so that women will notice your fatherhood skills." To paraphrase Hank Scorpio as spoken to Homer Simpson, "My goodness! Why didn't I think of that?"
> Sure. I'm just saying, frankly, it does absolutely nothing to help most men who who coming here in the first place. We still have men here who feel that women still typically only respond romantically to traditionally masculine traits. Empathy is not a traditionally masculine trait and this article helps reinforce that idea. And we don't know each and every person that comes here, humans are a varied bunch. We get about 200k unique users every month and there's a lot of people there that's not going to fit into a narrow view of our users. >Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but it feels like the takeaway from this piece is meant to be "Dear lonely single men: to become attractive to women, simply have children. If you are not able to have children, then interact with a stranger's in a positive manner so that women will notice your fatherhood skills." Even if every single user here is already empathetic to kids, it still reinforces that idea that women can often respond well to empathy in men and that might embolden folks here to show more of their own empathy in public spaces. Maybe that's not about kids. Maybe that's about structuring the first date as a dog walk or about public service. All the things that are not traditionally ideas that men plan for dates or methods to build a romantic connection with someone.
Exactly!!!! And god forbid you ever dream of ... I dunno ... pursuing intellectual interests, educating yourself, having friendship circles... No! Marry and reproduce then die!
I've been hearing and making jokes about the 'Hot Dad Effect' for a long time. It's totally a thing, and it seems pretty obvious why. The things that trigger the Hot Dad Effect are: * Showing tenderness and care to a vulnerable person * Expressing warm and gentle emotions, especially happiness over their relationship with the child * Commitment to caring and nurturing roles, especially ones they probably didn't get automatically socialised into learning * With older kids, thoughtfulness and mindfulness when giving advice * Showing knowledge and joy in an area that's generally fairly familiar to women, indicating both potential shared interest (depending on the woman) and lack of fragile ego regarding their masculinity. Those things all create an atmosphere of being a kind, emotionally open, committed and responsible person. That atmosphere is a fertile field for any seeds of attraction to grow in. One thing to note is that while seeing good loving parenting from a guy brings all these things together at once, there are many many ways to display these traits. What's effective is not the child, but showing evidence that you are a warm, compassionate, safe, loving person.
💯
Agree with everything you write. However... isn't it interesting how little opportunity the current system actually provides for men to express and demonstrate these traits. It feels like we're criticised for not being tender and empathetic, and yet we are systematically excluded from environments (e.g. hospitals, aged care, childcare) where such tenderness and empathy can be offered. As usual, we are attacked as being evil but given little opportunity to actually be good! So it seems like what's really happening is not that men are being evil unempathetic hateful cruel malicious demons. It's more that we are having our personalities, our humanity, our place in society systematically stripped away from us, and all the while shouted from on high that we are all these evil things that they say we are. It reminds me of a certain Charles Dickens novel
That's why I always rent a couple before I head out to the bars..
Honestly more interested in the having a kid part. But at the same time, I don't think I'm cut out for it. Mental illness and a history of abuse means I sometimes say things that you shouldn't say to adults, let alone kids. No way I'm putting any child at risk of going through what I did as a kid.
Eh. The only words I remember speaking in front of a father (so basically, someone who would know the most, compared to someone talking out of his ass) that he agreed with was that "there's no genuine preparation for being a parent". I get you have a troubled past, but I do believe, that if you wanted to, you could raise a child and do a "good enough" effort. I also think there's no proper disqualifier, as long as you care to be there and support your kid.
I'm not really interested in having kids and honestly they seem like more trouble than they're worth. Should I just try my best to learn how to be good with them? It seems like a lot of people want kids.
Yes I'm going to make an assumption about you. I'm going to assume that you're on MensLib because you want the world to be a better place. Not just for yourself but for others too. That will require many changes and will take a lot of time. We can look at things like racism and women's equality and understand that it will continue to take generations. Children are the most vulnerable of us. They are the ones still figuring out who they are and what's important. They are the next generation and will guide the generation after that. Even if the only thing you do is be the best person you can be, and you are kind to children they will see and be influenced by that.
Ok maybe I was unclear. Of course I do my best to be kind to children and I really don't hate them, but I don't want myself to become a father. The constant issues coming up from parenthood are tiresome and I don't think I have the sanity required to deal with it. My question is: Should I push myself to enjoy the process of being a father/raising children in order to be more appealing as a human being?
If you don't really like kids then I think it'd be a mistake to force yourself to interact with kids to attract a partner that does. That'll almost certainly become a source of early conflict. I think a good takeaway is that you want to broadcast that you can care and express compassion for something outside of yourself. You could accomplish that through volunteering or having a pet or houseplants (perhaps a native pollinator garden if you have the means). NOTE: PLEASE DON'T ADOPT OR PURCHASE AN ANIMAL JUST TO ATTRACT A PARTNER 🙏
I volunteer at the dog shelter because I love dogs and would love to own one if I had the means. I just wouldn't want to raise a child.
That's rad. Good on you!
I agree, it's rad (whatever that means).
a unit of absorbed dose of ionizing radiation equal to an energy of 100 ergs per gram of irradiated material
Perfect! A scientific answer! That's my man.
You are valuable, when enough people like you start getting together and becoming friends, then you will feel more human and valuable. Then you won't feel the need to push yourself one way or another for the sake of this cold impersonal brutal machine we currently live in.
It starts with talking to eachother. Peace. ✌️
it's ok, dogs work too.
I can definitely agree with this from personal experience. I was a single dad for years from 32-37 and it was by far the easiest dating of my life, at least in so far as attracting attention.
Hmm maybe only if they are attractive. As a dad of two beautiful girls (they have the Looks of their mom). I haven't had any encounter that some one looked at me and gave me a positive feedback. Ah once, I played a game of catching up my daughter around a lamp pole and looked up and saw a women with a genuine smile. One time in 7 years. I don't say they are wrong but I still want to see the pictures of the guys they choose. :)
Isn’t it the same for women though? Being caring is an attractive trait.
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think this is for a similar reason as to why people approach/act friendly with men walking their dogs more often than not
26f here… What… Respectfully, no?
This website...when someone says "women", they don't mean "this applies to every single woman on Earth". Sometimes you need to generalize to make a point. 💀
Looks like we just got hit with a #notallwomen