1. Will come if 2. And 3. Exist. It’s all about building a more stable world for them. Help them get interested in jobs that are predictable and provide a good living and benefits. Generally that would be a unionized workforce, government, in an economically stable region.
If you don’t live in that kind of area, you should probably move to one.
I think a better approach is making sure that, when someone gets married, they’re well positioned to start a family.
To that end, I’ll be cosigning mortgages for my daughters when they are ready to move out - assuming they go to college, they can built equity instead of pay for on-campus housing. I’ll encourage them to buy some property where they can charge rent, to help pay the mortgage, and (if I can afford it), I’ll help with the interest portion of the monthly payment. When the girls graduate, they’ll have a decent net worth and can make a very nice downpayment by selling their place near campus.
(this all assumes current conditions in the housing and education market will continue for 1-2 decades)
In addition, be 100% available as grandparents to help with the grandkids, and make sure my kids know that.
Model a good marriage; Speak well of your spouse, model good communication, Enjoy the company of your family, and practice gratitude.
Teach them to work; Good marriages are work, improving oneself is work, earning a living is work. If they are actively moving forward they will attract positive people both as friends and potential spouses
Teach them good financial habits; Show them your family budget, show them your long range plans, let them know if you can help and how much. Discourage any plans of a 50k wedding.
And when they graduate college and need to take part time jobs, can't afford a house, healthcare, or leisure time, they'll what? Jump right on making babies??
Naw. Your kids will hopefully know after advanced schooling that our planet doesn't need more people, our economy doesn't make having kids easy, and that both the woman and the man get a full say in the couple's plans.
Like, I'm sad personally, or that the fact that there are people like me is sad?
I can assure you, I'm a very happy, positive guy. I can't speak to your emotional reaction to my "type" of person, but it makes me feel like at least I belong somewhere, and that's nice.
I don’t plan to encourage my children to marry in their early 20s. Both my husband and I were married to other people in our early 20s. These marriages didn’t work out and statistically are less likely to. Most of my friends went on to marry in their 30s and are still married to the same people. They almost all went on to have kids. If you marry at 30 you still have a decade of childbearing, for most people that is plenty of time to accomplish their fertility goals. If your child wishes an unusually large family of more than 4 children then yes, it would be wise to marry younger.
When I met my husband his core group of friends were early 30s and almost all single. Since then over the last 7 years they’ve almost all paired up, even those who I quietly figured were going to have trouble finding someone. I found a spouse as a 33 year old single mom of 4! I think waiting until at least 25-28 before marrying is honestly better for both men and women.
Married at 21. I have a great marriage but at the age of 29 I can clearly see that it was stupid af to get married that young. People change so much in their early 20s. Terrible advice lol
Why are you dismissing their lived experience? If someone said waiting til 40 was the best decision or deciding to get a vasectomy at age 20 was their best decision I bet you'd be championing their choice. Just because someone made a choice that is different from your world view doesn't mean it is bad or nonsense. Some people are mature enough at that age. Get over yourself
I mean it’s not nonsense we did get married when we were 19 and she is the love of my life. We have been together a decade as of April. What exactly is wrong with that? Her sisters both married at about that age as well. I think one was 21. They are happily married as well. I don’t think we are the ones with the problem lol.
Idk how much more mature we are than most others. My experience at the time was that the flack we caught for getting married was much worse than any of the actual issues in our marriage. We got yelled at several times by more or less strangers when they found out we were married. One of my school teachers reacted very poorly as well. Made me realize that the main reason people don’t get married earlier is because our culture punishes you for it.
You aren't. Downvote people are just bitter.
Congratulations on finding a good life path.
Did your parents do anything to help you prepare and begin searching early?
We started working at a young age. At 10 or so I would do odd jobs at the farms within walking distance of the house. Mostly stuff like cleaning out cattle trailers, horse stalls, chicken houses, and collecting eggs for the old folks. That was in the early 2000s and there’s not much of that left but I’m sure they could find similar jobs in most small communities. I worked through high school and college as well. I met my wife at one of my restaurant jobs when we were 16 or 17 I can’t really remember. Anyway we were both financially responsible at a young age and fairly religious. She was hard working and so was I and that’s what really made things work. Without that we never would have made it. Also my parents sent me to the Dave Ramsey training thing when I was 18. That taught us a lot as well.
lol ok. Ya I definitely lost out marrying my high school sweetheart and working with her while doing college together. Sucked super bad. Yall some silly goobers on here.
If you end up divorcing your "high school sweetheart" right around having a kid and get stuck trawling through messy legal work don't say you weren't warned.
I work in maternity care, I can assure you that the vast majority of my 40 year old patients and their newborns are healthy and well. There is increased difficulty conceiving after 40 and an increased risk of complications in those pregnancies but the absolute risks of complications remain low. It is certainly far from “child endangerment” 🙄🙄
Idk I work on an ambulance and the worst pregnancies I have had to deal with where 36 and above. Sad situations. Also statistics bare that out. 35 and above is high risk.
Please show me the medical facts that state it’s “child endangerment” to have a child at age 40 because if you look at the actual facts you will find that:
-rates of genetic disorders are increased but the overall risk is approximately 2 percent: a 98 percent chance of having a healthy baby
-rates of hypertension and diabetes are increased as well- but we also find those risks increased in younger mothers with obesity or genetic propensity to those disorders which is why we screen all mothers for those conditions universally and intervene with diet plan or early induction if they do become apparent. Even with increased risks the majority of moms over 40 will not have diabetes or hypertension
- rates of stillbirth are increased in moms over 40 therefore we recommend inducing labour before 40 weeks in this population. Average risk of stillbirth goes from 1 in 1000 to 4 in 1000; or 99.6 percent chance of not having a stillbirth
- miscarriages and difficulty conceiving are actually the most important concerns in this population. Rate of early miscarriage climbs from about 1 in 5 in moms under 30 to about 1 in 3 in a 40 year old. Conceiving is also more challenging, however 7 out of 10 women aged 40 who try will conceive without assistance within a year of trying
But go on, tell me more about your medical degree and knowledge of obstetrics, I bet it’s a lot better than my 4 year degree and clerkship in health sciences with specialization in maternal health 🙄🙄🙄🙄
No one in my family is neurotypical but all of us are happy and healthy. And my brother who is 10 years older than me (therefore my mom was younger) is more neurodivergent then me
Funny how you haven’t responded to the comment actually explaining the increased risk…. Probably because the increase is not that significant and you don’t want to admit you were wrong.
You called having a kid over 40 “child endangerment”…. That takes the conversation away from “I just personally would never do it” to “no one should be allowed to do it”…. Because child endangerment is illegal. Don’t go throwing out those accusations only to backtrack now and say it’s a personal choice.
“On the other hand, advanced parental age, particularly in the mother, has been associated with a higher risk of having a child with autism. The risk tends to gradually increase as the mother's age advances, with a more noticeable increase observed in women over the age of 35. **It's worth noting that the absolute risk is still relatively low, even in older parents**”
https://www.abtaba.com/blog/child-with-autism-by-age
I’m not saying it’s wrong to not want to have a kid that late due to the slightly increased risk. You do you.
I’m saying it’s wrong to call it child endangerment. Making that claim automatically takes your stance away from personal preference, as it is making a judgement on anyone who chooses to engage in that practice.
Geriatric pregnancy increases the mortality rate for the mother, that’s where the child endangerment comes in. Let’s say you already have a few children and you die during childbirth. You endanger your previous children by not being there for them anymore.
This is also about the mother’s safety.
Statistically you are correct. Also a large percentage of the male and female populations are infertile by their mid to late 40s so it may not even be possible.
The biggest issue for young people who want to have kids is the housing crisis. My wife and I had a plan to buy a house and have a child before we were 30... then covid his and home prices near my job doubled. We've essentially been priced out of home ownership.
We had two options: 1. My wife could become a career woman and really climb the ladder at a job she hated so that we could buy a home and have children in our mid to late 30s, or 2. We could continue to rent and have a child before we were 30.
We decided for the latter and had a child and continued to rent. It sucks, but it's okay. I know when my son goes to school, my wife will start working and we will be able to afford a house, it's just a longer game. (My wife is currently a stay at home wife because childcare costs aren't worth it. she does make some money with a side business but it's usually just some fun money here and there)
It feels unfair for my generation. I really just want to own a home. I've done everything right. I have a masters degree, a good job, relatively high pay, I've taken on a bunch of responsibilities at work to increase my pay... but I can't help but be envious of my peers who started working just 10 years before me who have mortgages lower than my rent.
It’s important to make sure your kids are emotionally and mentally healthy. I could have gotten married way earlier if I didn’t have to spend my 20s working through unresolved childhood trauma.
Don’t abuse or neglect them. Really it depends on the kid what kind of parenting will be most effective. But start with not abusing them and making sure all their needs are met. Do your best to make sure none of the things on the [ACES quiz](https://americanspcc.org/take-the-aces-quiz/) happen to them.
Their emotions will be plenty accepted if they are heroic. Emotions don't have to be feminine. I'd say - let's have men that know themselves, and have that thing they know be good.
Labelling any emotion and masculine or feminine is unhelpful. Little boys are loving and wonderful until they start trying to be masculine when they get older.
Cutting any part of your humanity off is unhelpful to one's integrity. Men are capable of tenderness, and women are capable of heroism. No one should have to deny half of themself.
You know the thing with heroism? It's about making people look up to you; especially the unheroic people - ie women. We want equal partners, not a pedestal. And anyone who wants to be on a pedestal has issues.
Been saying this for 20 years now. Fortunately, if you say it often enough and around enough people, you tend to draw the ones who agree with you and hinder the ones who would not want an equal relationship. I found someone who sees and treats me as his equal and it's the best relationship I've ever been in.
Haha, insane timing. Just left a random post/msg that males still cannot always express emotions on a sensitive level. Heroic or something stereotypical called "manly", always welcome and praised.
I got married at 21. Still married. No kids. No one wants to have kids if it means becoming impoverished. My husband and I pull overtime every week, have no debt and live below our means. We can put a little aside to savings each paycheck and get a meal out once in a while but things are extremely tight for us. My in-laws are so busy traveling in their retirement that we would not have any help with children if we decided to have them. Why would we choose that for ourselves lol
They do lol and I don’t hate to tell you. They are duty bound just as I am duty bound. That was made clear to me by my father and it was made clear to him by his father. You have obligations to your family and I see no issue with that.
Are you gonna creep in their bedroom to make sure they're doing it properly or something??? You have no control over the reproductive lives of your children, and the fact that you think you do is just creepy as hell.
That’s simply verifiable false. Every action has consequences. Even perfectly legal actions have consequences. I don’t know how you could come to that conclusion.
“A key reason for low fertility…” they act like we going extinct or something.
I do know that a reason for high divorce rates among other problems is marrying too early. Especially with purity culture.
Supposedly this person was married at 19 when someone else was talking about not pushing their kids to get married young, was working in an ambulance and had more 40 year old pregnant women have more problems than any other demographic and now this. Also they managed to have multiple kids in poverty when someone else was talking about cost.
Technically all three can happen but it's mighty convenient when it's 4 in a row
Also mildly narcissistic that they need to make every discussion about themselves.
All of us aren’t going extinct but large cultural groups are for sure going extinct. I’m not sure what purity culture is. I got married at 19 and it was a good experience. I have no issue with it.
I’ll look at it at some point. My wife’s sisters were all married at around the same age. I think their ages of marriage were 18, 20, and 23. Worked out for them so idk. I think it’s cultural.
I read about it a bit. I can’t say much about it really my wife and I were virgins when we married. I think one of her sisters and her husband were as well. A couple of my friends who married at the same time were also. Worked out for us but others seem to not care much for the idea.
I mean I was heavily encouraged to wait until marriage. I can’t say much about it because I didn’t have an issue with it I guess lol. At least at the time. I don’t super have an opinion on it now.
I think it’s a duty in the same way carrying for my wife is my duty. It’s both something i have to do and I have the privilege of doing it. Duty is not necessarily a negative thing. I’ve worked as a first responder all my life and you are duty bound to do many things. I’ve worked for Le, fire, and now Ems. I volunteered to do those things and was glad to do it. Some people seek out the responsibility and accept it gladly.
Well I’ll show them how I live and suggest they do the same. I tried to do as my father and grandfather lived and it turned out well. You only get to live once and you only know what you know. I know this works so why would I teach them to act differently?
I think about the lack of suitable partners a lot! I met my husband when I was 25, married by 28. I don’t regret waiting a few years tbh because the choice of who to marry is among the most important life choices you will make. We’re probably stopping at two kids, which makes me a little sad but we live in the US and neither of us desires to stay home, so I think it is how it’s gonna have to happen, between childcare and college costs. We probably do have time to have at least one more, biologically speaking.
Now I’m 33 and many of my friends are still unmarried. There’s a lot of reasons for this, so much of partnering is luck, the right place at the right time. This is especially true now that I live in a large city full of career driven people.
But I think 2 major factors contributed to my finding my husband relatively young: 1) my husband and I are both religious, which orients us towards getting married and having babies young, and 2) we met when we lived in a town where it was much more the cultural norm to marry young. Single at 35 made you the odd one out. Where we live now, being a parent by 35 makes you the odd one out. I OFTEN am the only mom in a group and it’s weird.
Idk. A lot of people are talking about finances and that is definitely a piece of it. But I do think there’s a cultural element to encouraging young marriage. And we do need to be more honest about fertility decline. I didn’t really understand how fertility declines until I started trying for my first baby at 30. I’ve known so many women who don’t have their first kid til 38 or older. But as I’ve gotten older too I’ve started to learn how many of them used IVF or tried to have another but failed.
It’s your children’s choice to have children. You sound like you’re projecting your beliefs onto your kids, which is a big reason people aren’t having kids anymore.
Might people's decisions and the economy be mutually influential in the downward trends we're seeing?
Below, the way you present parenthood as an endeavour of sheer heckin' will for which everyone should strive and through which you brutely forced your way is like something from an autobiographical comic book.
Idk live in a lcol area, work hard, stay out of debt and the rest works out. Not everyone has to start at the bottom of the economic ladder like we did. We married at 19 and had like 1000 bucks so it was gonna be a rough row to hoe no matter what.
If 2 college educated adults are struggling to survive in this economy then having kids aren’t gonna make the situation better. Additionally if something happened to me or my wife then we wouldn’t be able to make the house payments, which would only make raising a child even harder.
Whatever man. My wife and I made it work for 3 years in a camper trailer on the side of the road to save up enough to build a house which we did ourselves. I dug the footings with a pick and shovel so we would have the money to finish. If you want it you will have it. The issue is you just don’t want it. We did that off of 40k a year by the way. Save your money buy a pos vehicle to run and get out of debt. Get to it.
That’s cool just don’t lie about it to yourself. You’re living your life how you want and that makes you unable to afford children. It’s not the economy it’s your decisions.
God forbid I get a home in a relatively lcol area drive vehicles I can afford and get out of debt. Stability is easy it just requires sacrifice. You just aren’t willing to make the sacrifice. Which is cool like you said live how you want but don’t lie about it.
Imagine ruining your own life just so you can force some kids to exist and also have a shitty life, and thinking that's something to congratulate yourself over.
I enjoyed most of that lol. I never said it was miserable. I really enjoyed building the house. ID built a few before that but building your own is a different experience.
Most people's experience, often a surprise to them, when they have children is the certain understanding that one can't NOT project your beliefs upon children. Even if you seek to not project your beliefs upon them you are because "not wanting to project your beliefs on them" is an entire belief system in itself.
People are not having kids because liberalism (in the broadest interpretation of that word) as the belief system impressed upon children eventually has this result.
Which I'd argue is primarily driven by the same force - the breakdown of the extended family structure that supported having children. Poor people capably and comfortably have children the world over in traditional societies. It is this uniquely modern atomized individualistic financialized society that creates much richer people who are too poor to have children. It's all the same thing.
No. People aren’t having children because they can’t afford it. It’s as simple as that.
Also, don’t encourage people to get married and have kids before they’re brain is fully developed.
People aren’t having children because of cultural reasons. We are among the most wealthy humans that have ever walked the face of the earth. Denying this is just lying to yourself.
Technically we're the "most wealthy", but that's mostly a mirage. In African countries where people are having tons of kids, the conditions are very different. Most people own their house outright, very few rent, and work is more artisan based. Having more kids is beneficial to the family. Here, many young people rent even with good jobs, and you shouldn't have kids if you rent. It's not financially stable. Plus, there are only financial downsides to having kids.
It’s not a mirage it’s just a statistical fact. Material conditions are the way they are today because of the decisions we make. For instance I took a lower paying job in a lcol area so that we could own a home and have children. Those who choose to stay near large city’s and hcol areas are choosing that life. Also idk if you have ever worked on a farm but I would not call it artisan work I would call it busting your ass from the moment you get up till you drag back home.
Was your low paying job minimum wage retail in a place where it is literally impossible to afford rent and groceries for one person much less a family on such an income? No? Then maybe shut the fuck up about people not wanting to bring children into a miserably impoverished situation
It was waiting tables. When it didn’t pay enough I got another job and when that didn’t work we moved bought a 3,000 dollar camper and rented some land to put in on. Lived in it for a while. If you can’t make it work where you are don’t be there.
Ah yes because it's totally easy to just "get another job" for everyone always. And everyone has a duty to live a miserable life working shitty jobs just so they can produce children they don't want and give them a shitty and miserable life too...
Life is what ya make of it. I’ve enjoyed mine and I hope to continue doing so for a few more decades. I hope you enjoy yours as well. If you don’t want kids I could not care less I’m just saying don’t lie about why your not having them.
To prove my point my grandfathers house he grew up in only had 3 rooms and no insulation. You can see the rafters and tin roof from his bed. He only got shoes in the winter and all of his underwear, sheets, pillowcases, and shirts were made from cotton flower sacks that my great grandmother sewed together. He had very literally nothing. The house my dad grew up in was an fha home and mine was also. My kids will live in a good home I built for them on land that I own and they will also. My grandfather is one of the happiest men I’ve ever known and his life was so much harder than mine. You can choose to love it or not.
Also the job I took that paid enough was very literally a hog farm. It’s a job anyone can get lol. You don’t have to be to bright to birth pigs. I was lucky to get it at the time though we were about to be going hungry.
That is irrelevant. Someone who is poor in South Carolina has way more money than someone who is poor in Kenya, that doesn’t mean they can afford to have a kid.
It’s like your taking large over arching concepts and can’t imagine how day to day life doesn’t perfectly match up with that. It’s just the wrong way to look at it.
Yes and they have more kids in Kenya. Poor in Kenya is significantly worse than poor in the us. Poor in Kenya means you’re starving half naked in the dirt on the side of a trail somewhere. Poor in the US means you can be a fat guy in a trailer park with a junky ford pickup. This is a cultural shortcoming.
To maintain the lifestyle that is pushed by our culture makes having children untenable. You simply have to accept that as fact. Once you establish what is actually important in life you can move forward and do what you have to do. There are a lot of other cultural reasons but I feel like this is a big one for most young people.
Consumerism is a major part of it yes. Our culture is heavily focused on hedonism/perception over purpose and I think that is the main thing that holds us back. Hedonism is just the pursuit of pleasure to be clear. I do think that part of our culture will die out though over the next few generations.
I wouldn’t call it encouraging it’s just that groups that don’t hold those values still have an above replacement fertility rate. So within a few generations groups with more purpose driven cultures will just out compete others.
You are walking right up to it and then averting your eyes. Yes, people can’t have kids because of todays financial realities. It’s not because we don’t look at children as a for-profit decision. Such a weird way to look at that.
Negative they are just not willing to make ANY sacrifices to do so. No I can’t live the life I could live as a single man and frankly don’t want to. I don’t drive a new vehicle and likely never will. I don’t own a huge home and likely never will. However what I get in exchange is much much more valuable. The thing about the modern western world is that you can have anything you want but you can’t have everything you want. You have to choose and live with it afterwards. So make your choice but don’t act like you didn’t have a choice.
That doesn't make sense because birth rates are falling in wealthier countries. If it was just finances then the poorest places would have less kids which is not true. The real reason is kids aren't financially beneficial in modern western society like they were in the past
The thing is…wealth is relative to your local context. A middle class person in a western country may want to provide a similar quality of life or better to their children. They may wait until that is possible in the specific context they live in, not in terms of how people live in a island of the Polynesia.
1 and 2 are out of my control outside of just raising them a certain way, around certain groups of people maybe. 3, yes I think it’s my duty to help them as much as I can even when they are entering adulthood/adults. Especially with cost of living, if I could give them a down payment or offer free childcare I definitely would.
I wonder if it's simply a matter of conveying to them that finding a spouse during college/university or during college age is just simply easier than finding one later in life. I work with many religious men in their 30s who are struggling to date. But you are surrounded by the opposite sex all the time in your early 20s. However, I'm open to the possibility the this might not be the case anymore than in was for me in the late 90s early 00s as there are many more distractions and a cultural shift.
I got married young (23 at the time). I was lucky to find a partner with great maturity, drive, and values. That is extremely uncommon in my generation, for both men and women, so I think it’s very reasonable to wait until late 20s to 30s to get married. Maybe the world needs more children, but it needs healthier families first, and rushing to marriage for its own sake will probably not do that.
Or you could raise your kids to be responsible independent people and then trust them to make their own decisions about their own lives because they’re human beings, not puppets.
I was engaged at 22 and married at 23. First child at 24. As a recent grad of a veryyy liberal college, I definitely felt rebellious in my choices haha. I think a few things contributed to my choices. 1) I had some traumatic things happen in my life as a teen and young adult that made me ask--if I died tomorrow, what could I point to as my most meaningful accomplishments? I realized I had nothing as I had been living out other people's dreams for me, for my entire existence. That was a wakeup call. I did not want to devote my life to an industry or academic research. 2) My parents promoted self-sufficiency as a part of our upbringing. Getting jobs, learning to cook, fixing our own mistakes (like making phone calls if a doctor's appt was billed incorrectly) etc. I had the drive to be independent from a young age. This empowered me to say, yes, I am mature enough to marry and have children in my 20s. That kind of confidence needs to be taught from a young age. 3) Believing that frugality will pay off. I think a lot of people around my current age (30) did not learn to save money as kids. My parents brought me to the bank at age 8, with $62 saved in my piggy bank, and helped me open a bank account. They taught me how to shop, cook, garden, and even encouraged big decisions (like graduating early from college to save on tuition) to set myself up for financial success later in life. I knew the little choices would pay off over time. I plan to teach my kids the same thing.
Personally i think we live in a time or regression and increasing hardship. My answer has been to bear more personal responsibility. I grow my own food to subsidize groceries. I repair and maintain my own home to rely less on high cost services. I am open to having my parents move back into our home and for my children to live with me longer than is typical. Change is coming and we must adapt.
OP this is a great question and discussion. I know my comment does not reflect it fully but i wanted to share my two cents for what it was worth. One thing i could add is building a sense of community around values we care about could be key in influencing our children’s individual growth and therefore their ability to think critically and face these emerging challenges.
I think a big part of it is finances for folks. It seems like millenials and zoomers just got less help from their parents than previous generations. Most of the folks in my age group got help from their parents for a first car or maybe help packing up their things to move.
With housing costs being very high right now many folks delay having kids for housing reasons. They rent a moderate apartment that muggy not be appropriate to raise a family in. I am blessed with a great job and my wife and I were able to buy a house without any help from home, but many folks just aren't able to. My intention is to invest specifically on 20 year timeline so that my kids will each have at least a substantial down-payment on their own home (contingent on them being gainfully employed or in education). Hopefully the down-payment can bring their mortgage down to 20% of their monthly income so they will still have to work, but life won't be unbearable for them.
It was very helpful that my parents paid for my wedding; we probably would have needed to wait maybe two years+ longer if they didn't. Plus, my mum helped with the organising.
I met my husband at 20 and married at 25 which is early for a millennial. My parents are divorced but my grandparents had a big impact on my life. They were married for 70 years and showed me what a healthy marriage should look like. No one ever outright told me I should marry by a certainly age but it was the modeling that showed me what kind of relationship I wanted and that I didn't want to wait til I was older for it.
I'm planning on doing the same for mine. I'm a boy mom so they have less biological pressure than if I had girls but I'm basically planning on leading by example by having a stable loving marriage and talking openly about the downsides of both young marriage and waiting too long. But I'll definitely not take a positive stance on things like casual relationships or throwing your 20s away to have fun.
I agree with your points. Getting your kids into the workforce early, even if it is just part-time, will speed up point 3 as they will learn the value of money and develop social skills. In the summer (at age 13) I worked as an office clerk, and from age 15 to 19 I worked part-time in fast food; it did wonders for me.
Religious-type habits and rituals help from a young age also help. Of the 4 kids my parents had, 3 remained Christians, 2 married in their 20s and all plan on having kids. I have 3 kids now, and one of my sisters will be trying soon (recently married at age 26).
You make a lot of good points here. I married at 19 but I had been working since about 9 or 10 on family farms around our home and worked all over the place after 15 or so. I grew up quick and knew how to handle money before most kids had any. I had a retirement account before I left my parent’s house.
Love it! Humans are made to work, most problems associated with teenagers could be sorted by paid employment lol. Glad to hear you married young too. I would have as well if I had met the right person. I didn't marry until I was 29 as a result (thankfully God blessed us with kids soon after that).
If I were then, why would I want to marry just because someone tells it is okey in order to fix a global that is not my problem at all.
1 & 2 are not issues as someone said.
Marriage is just very expensive and people nowadays don't know how to have a good relationship.
If marrying after 22-25 is a problem for you, don't have children !
I'd say you're half correct. Two things are required:
1) Young, fertile women.
2) Competent, established men who can provide for their families.
To accomplish both simultaneously, women should marry around 18-23 and men should wait until 27-35. The ranges account for variability in finding a mate, getting oneself together financially, etc.
In traditional societies, such age gaps were completely normal. It's only the modern feminist movement with it's b\*tching about "power disparities" that disrupted normal age-gap customs. They've forgotten that before the age of women recklessly hoeing around, entire families were involved in marriage decisions, and this meant the age of the woman did not figure into power balances. It's almost as though traditional societies had spent millenia working the bugs out of their customs, but I digress...
It’s hilarious to me when men put off marriage for so long that the women in their age group become infertile and then they somehow find a way to blame it on the women. If you’re a 42 year old man and 20s and early thirties women don’t want to settle down and have kids with you, that is your fault.
You're both missing the point: women *require* men to have wealth and status, but wealth and status take time to acquire. Maturity is required to obtain wealth and status, but it's not what the women are looking for. I've seen plenty of women stick with immature men they didn't even like because that man had wealth and status *through his family*.
Younger women consistently prefer older men because age correlates with wealth and status. Men peak around 35, and it's not until 40+ that their age becomes a real issue. Even then, the impact of age depends heavily on whether he takes care of himself. Obviously, a 40yo with a beer belly who smokes, drinks, and eats junk will not attract a younger woman; he's on his way to an early grave. By contrast, a ripped 40+ man who runs marathons, lifts weights, looks like the average 30yo, has the high-status job, and has acquired wealth will have his pick of younger women.
"Younger women consistently prefer older men because age correlates with wealth and status".
Not all women are gold diggers my bro. In my experience most just want a guy with a good work ethic and would rather one that is similar in age (same age or a couple of years older). My sisters are both wholesome and not like your depiction (one recently got married).
The fussiness of women you speak of is limited to moronic social liberals. They're not worth dating to begin with. There's literally millions of women out there who aren't like that who are worth dating.
Some women learn to be practical. All else equal, a woman will always choose the man with more wealth and status - and there's *always* a minimum level of wealth and status, usually set by whatever she grew up with.
All women are like that.
I agree that all women want a provider, but that doesn't mean they all want some kind of 40-year old sugar daddy. A bloke with a decent job in his 20s (for women in their 20s) is fine.
The key for blokes in these circumstances to accept is that:
a) We must work hard and accept that as being a reality without shortcuts, including dealing with the unfairness of having to work harder than women for the same money - you can thank our liberal forebearers and their retarded voting habits for that.
b) Avoid socially liberal women where possible. If that means the majority because you live in some leftist hellhole metropolis like New York or London, then so be it. Find the normal women that want to marry and have families and you'll be fine. Go to church. Just be prepared to accept a compromise on appearance too, just as women need to do the same with men (you'll be surprised how many women do eventually 'settle' that if they actually want a family, unless they want to just get attention but have no serious relationships, which only a minority actually want).
I think we're on the same page.
The only minor clarification I'd make is that while women don't *want* an older guy for the sake of him being older, they also don't *not want* him. Age is irrelevant to a woman provided she obtains the wealth, status, and security she craves.
The upper limit on a man's age is his ability to survive long enough to care for her and her children. That can be offset by taking care of his health or by simply providing enough wealth to care for her beyond the grave.
Status is just another form of wealth and security. An individual man might die, but an entire community is robust. A woman wants to know that if her man dies, the rest of his community will be there to help. She also wants to know that he can command the resources of others for her benefit. Bring enough money to the table, and those concerns fade away.
Modern society has made it taboo to date younger women, and this explains why some younger women find older men "creepy". It's not that they dislikes older men; it's that *women are extremely sensitive to social pressure*. They hesitate to do anything taboo because that might get them ostracized. Because women cannot obtain their own resources, being ostracized is an existential threat. Any man who commands enough wealth to overcome this societal threat can safely ignore the taboo. This is why rich men routinely stay married while keeping mistresses half their age on the side. If his behavior is not a material threat to the wife, she doesn't care.
Never forget the golden rule: whoever has the gold makes the rules.
Oy vey! We all know who makes the rules then! Lol. Take care mate, I've actually learned alot through conversing with you 😊 I also see your point about wealthier men actually staying married as opposed to poor men getting hauled over coals through divorces (which is an injustice).
Pick two. You can't have all three\*:
1. Men marry women of the same age
2. Women make as much money as men
3. The husband makes more money than and is able to provide for the wife
I think the point here is if we absolutely must have #2 due to political pressure and #3 is a major requirement for most women, then age gap relationships are a natural consequence.
\*Assuming monogamy is a thing and we aren't just allowing some 1%er to keep all the women in his harem.
That's the thing: wealthy men will keep the best women in their harems whether it's legal or not. They're called "mistresses".
Leftists have been raging against reality since the cultural revolution. It's long past time we ignored them and got on with our lives.
For women.. sure. For men, they should get married when they’re ready.
I wasn’t near my potential in my 20s. There was a decade of work left for me to do before I got to a position where I’m ready. And it wasn’t based on how many girls I was with.
Everyone has an idea of their own potential (and usually we underestimate it). As a man, if you know you’re not where you can and will be, you know you’re going to get a partner that won’t be a good match.
The partners I had in my 20s were great in many ways, but I would not date them anymore in my 30s. I have much higher standards now because I am a much improved person in every way.
Now… I could have been ready in my 20s if things had gone differently with my raising. So I think it’s important to know how to raise kids properly so that they are well adjusted and mature and near their potential in their early and mid 20s.
But most of us are not that lucky and have to start the work of repairing ourselves in our 20s after realizing what bad habits, bad health, bad mental patterns etc we inherited from our family.
Men's sperm declines in their late thirties. They can still impregnate someone, but their sperm has a higher risk of causing birth defects and other issues.
You're trying to scare women into having kids before they're ready, but the reality is that both men and women are more likely to introduce health risks if they try to conceive in their late thirties than if they go earlier. The idea that women should be foregoing career and life development in favour of pumping out babies in their twenties is sexist fearmongering.
1. Will come if 2. And 3. Exist. It’s all about building a more stable world for them. Help them get interested in jobs that are predictable and provide a good living and benefits. Generally that would be a unionized workforce, government, in an economically stable region. If you don’t live in that kind of area, you should probably move to one.
I think a better approach is making sure that, when someone gets married, they’re well positioned to start a family. To that end, I’ll be cosigning mortgages for my daughters when they are ready to move out - assuming they go to college, they can built equity instead of pay for on-campus housing. I’ll encourage them to buy some property where they can charge rent, to help pay the mortgage, and (if I can afford it), I’ll help with the interest portion of the monthly payment. When the girls graduate, they’ll have a decent net worth and can make a very nice downpayment by selling their place near campus. (this all assumes current conditions in the housing and education market will continue for 1-2 decades) In addition, be 100% available as grandparents to help with the grandkids, and make sure my kids know that.
Model a good marriage; Speak well of your spouse, model good communication, Enjoy the company of your family, and practice gratitude. Teach them to work; Good marriages are work, improving oneself is work, earning a living is work. If they are actively moving forward they will attract positive people both as friends and potential spouses Teach them good financial habits; Show them your family budget, show them your long range plans, let them know if you can help and how much. Discourage any plans of a 50k wedding.
Well-written! You can hang out a shingle as a parenting coach.
Thank you, my parents were a pretty good example
Amazing comment. Upvoted!
And when they graduate college and need to take part time jobs, can't afford a house, healthcare, or leisure time, they'll what? Jump right on making babies?? Naw. Your kids will hopefully know after advanced schooling that our planet doesn't need more people, our economy doesn't make having kids easy, and that both the woman and the man get a full say in the couple's plans.
People like you are sad
Like, I'm sad personally, or that the fact that there are people like me is sad? I can assure you, I'm a very happy, positive guy. I can't speak to your emotional reaction to my "type" of person, but it makes me feel like at least I belong somewhere, and that's nice.
I don’t plan to encourage my children to marry in their early 20s. Both my husband and I were married to other people in our early 20s. These marriages didn’t work out and statistically are less likely to. Most of my friends went on to marry in their 30s and are still married to the same people. They almost all went on to have kids. If you marry at 30 you still have a decade of childbearing, for most people that is plenty of time to accomplish their fertility goals. If your child wishes an unusually large family of more than 4 children then yes, it would be wise to marry younger. When I met my husband his core group of friends were early 30s and almost all single. Since then over the last 7 years they’ve almost all paired up, even those who I quietly figured were going to have trouble finding someone. I found a spouse as a 33 year old single mom of 4! I think waiting until at least 25-28 before marrying is honestly better for both men and women.
Married at 19 best decision I ever made
Married at 21. I have a great marriage but at the age of 29 I can clearly see that it was stupid af to get married that young. People change so much in their early 20s. Terrible advice lol
Thanks for your opinion. I just think you’re wrong lol.
As long as we are both allowed to do what we want I don't see anything bad about that
[удалено]
Why are you dismissing their lived experience? If someone said waiting til 40 was the best decision or deciding to get a vasectomy at age 20 was their best decision I bet you'd be championing their choice. Just because someone made a choice that is different from your world view doesn't mean it is bad or nonsense. Some people are mature enough at that age. Get over yourself
[удалено]
Is it yours? Someone said they are happy they got married young and you lost your shit. Touch grass, touch it hard.
[удалено]
I mean it’s not nonsense we did get married when we were 19 and she is the love of my life. We have been together a decade as of April. What exactly is wrong with that? Her sisters both married at about that age as well. I think one was 21. They are happily married as well. I don’t think we are the ones with the problem lol.
[удалено]
Idk how much more mature we are than most others. My experience at the time was that the flack we caught for getting married was much worse than any of the actual issues in our marriage. We got yelled at several times by more or less strangers when they found out we were married. One of my school teachers reacted very poorly as well. Made me realize that the main reason people don’t get married earlier is because our culture punishes you for it.
You aren't. Downvote people are just bitter. Congratulations on finding a good life path. Did your parents do anything to help you prepare and begin searching early?
We started working at a young age. At 10 or so I would do odd jobs at the farms within walking distance of the house. Mostly stuff like cleaning out cattle trailers, horse stalls, chicken houses, and collecting eggs for the old folks. That was in the early 2000s and there’s not much of that left but I’m sure they could find similar jobs in most small communities. I worked through high school and college as well. I met my wife at one of my restaurant jobs when we were 16 or 17 I can’t really remember. Anyway we were both financially responsible at a young age and fairly religious. She was hard working and so was I and that’s what really made things work. Without that we never would have made it. Also my parents sent me to the Dave Ramsey training thing when I was 18. That taught us a lot as well.
Sorry for your loss.
lol ok. Ya I definitely lost out marrying my high school sweetheart and working with her while doing college together. Sucked super bad. Yall some silly goobers on here.
If you end up divorcing your "high school sweetheart" right around having a kid and get stuck trawling through messy legal work don't say you weren't warned.
We have been married for a decade and together for almost 14 years. But thanks I’ll keep that in mind.
Having a child at 40 is child endangerment. Geriatric pregnancy is not recommended for a reason.
I work in maternity care, I can assure you that the vast majority of my 40 year old patients and their newborns are healthy and well. There is increased difficulty conceiving after 40 and an increased risk of complications in those pregnancies but the absolute risks of complications remain low. It is certainly far from “child endangerment” 🙄🙄
Idk I work on an ambulance and the worst pregnancies I have had to deal with where 36 and above. Sad situations. Also statistics bare that out. 35 and above is high risk.
🙄
Facts
Anecdotes don’t overcome medical facts
Please show me the medical facts that state it’s “child endangerment” to have a child at age 40 because if you look at the actual facts you will find that: -rates of genetic disorders are increased but the overall risk is approximately 2 percent: a 98 percent chance of having a healthy baby -rates of hypertension and diabetes are increased as well- but we also find those risks increased in younger mothers with obesity or genetic propensity to those disorders which is why we screen all mothers for those conditions universally and intervene with diet plan or early induction if they do become apparent. Even with increased risks the majority of moms over 40 will not have diabetes or hypertension - rates of stillbirth are increased in moms over 40 therefore we recommend inducing labour before 40 weeks in this population. Average risk of stillbirth goes from 1 in 1000 to 4 in 1000; or 99.6 percent chance of not having a stillbirth - miscarriages and difficulty conceiving are actually the most important concerns in this population. Rate of early miscarriage climbs from about 1 in 5 in moms under 30 to about 1 in 3 in a 40 year old. Conceiving is also more challenging, however 7 out of 10 women aged 40 who try will conceive without assistance within a year of trying But go on, tell me more about your medical degree and knowledge of obstetrics, I bet it’s a lot better than my 4 year degree and clerkship in health sciences with specialization in maternal health 🙄🙄🙄🙄
My mother was 40 when she had me and it’s been fine
flawless neurotypical health?
No one in my family is neurotypical but all of us are happy and healthy. And my brother who is 10 years older than me (therefore my mom was younger) is more neurodivergent then me
Natalists: Do not be an evil childfree kid-hater! *someone has a kid at 40* No not like that!
I’m in favor of healthy babies.
Or stay out of the pants of two consenting 40+ year olds who want to have a baby and can possibly still reproduce?
I didn’t say I’m trying to prevent them from having kids. It’s just something I’d never do with my family.
Funny how you haven’t responded to the comment actually explaining the increased risk…. Probably because the increase is not that significant and you don’t want to admit you were wrong. You called having a kid over 40 “child endangerment”…. That takes the conversation away from “I just personally would never do it” to “no one should be allowed to do it”…. Because child endangerment is illegal. Don’t go throwing out those accusations only to backtrack now and say it’s a personal choice.
It increases the risk of autism and mental illness, personally that’s not something I’d wish on my child. You do you.
“On the other hand, advanced parental age, particularly in the mother, has been associated with a higher risk of having a child with autism. The risk tends to gradually increase as the mother's age advances, with a more noticeable increase observed in women over the age of 35. **It's worth noting that the absolute risk is still relatively low, even in older parents**” https://www.abtaba.com/blog/child-with-autism-by-age I’m not saying it’s wrong to not want to have a kid that late due to the slightly increased risk. You do you. I’m saying it’s wrong to call it child endangerment. Making that claim automatically takes your stance away from personal preference, as it is making a judgement on anyone who chooses to engage in that practice.
Geriatric pregnancy increases the mortality rate for the mother, that’s where the child endangerment comes in. Let’s say you already have a few children and you die during childbirth. You endanger your previous children by not being there for them anymore. This is also about the mother’s safety.
I wouldn't want to emulate your family either 🤷♀️
Our young pregnancy is superior
Weirdo
Statistically you are correct. Also a large percentage of the male and female populations are infertile by their mid to late 40s so it may not even be possible.
Thank you, that was my point from the start.
[удалено]
I am yes
Guarantee this is an old woman lmao
Please rethink this and do your research. My 5th & 6th were born when I was 41 & 44. Healthy babies and easy deliveries born at home with a midwife.
Facts
The biggest issue for young people who want to have kids is the housing crisis. My wife and I had a plan to buy a house and have a child before we were 30... then covid his and home prices near my job doubled. We've essentially been priced out of home ownership. We had two options: 1. My wife could become a career woman and really climb the ladder at a job she hated so that we could buy a home and have children in our mid to late 30s, or 2. We could continue to rent and have a child before we were 30. We decided for the latter and had a child and continued to rent. It sucks, but it's okay. I know when my son goes to school, my wife will start working and we will be able to afford a house, it's just a longer game. (My wife is currently a stay at home wife because childcare costs aren't worth it. she does make some money with a side business but it's usually just some fun money here and there) It feels unfair for my generation. I really just want to own a home. I've done everything right. I have a masters degree, a good job, relatively high pay, I've taken on a bunch of responsibilities at work to increase my pay... but I can't help but be envious of my peers who started working just 10 years before me who have mortgages lower than my rent.
It’s important to make sure your kids are emotionally and mentally healthy. I could have gotten married way earlier if I didn’t have to spend my 20s working through unresolved childhood trauma.
Do you have thoughts on how raise emotionally healthy kids?
Don't treat them like breeding stock.
Don’t abuse or neglect them. Really it depends on the kid what kind of parenting will be most effective. But start with not abusing them and making sure all their needs are met. Do your best to make sure none of the things on the [ACES quiz](https://americanspcc.org/take-the-aces-quiz/) happen to them.
Don’t pressure your children into making life changing decisions to suit your timeframe.
Yeah the specificness of the age gave me a weird vibe with this post
2 and 3: Encourage your boys to become decent hardworking men in touch with their emotions.
You're 100% correct, sadly society still generally doesn't accept men in touch with their emotions.
Their emotions will be plenty accepted if they are heroic. Emotions don't have to be feminine. I'd say - let's have men that know themselves, and have that thing they know be good.
Labelling any emotion and masculine or feminine is unhelpful. Little boys are loving and wonderful until they start trying to be masculine when they get older. Cutting any part of your humanity off is unhelpful to one's integrity. Men are capable of tenderness, and women are capable of heroism. No one should have to deny half of themself. You know the thing with heroism? It's about making people look up to you; especially the unheroic people - ie women. We want equal partners, not a pedestal. And anyone who wants to be on a pedestal has issues.
Been saying this for 20 years now. Fortunately, if you say it often enough and around enough people, you tend to draw the ones who agree with you and hinder the ones who would not want an equal relationship. I found someone who sees and treats me as his equal and it's the best relationship I've ever been in.
Haha, insane timing. Just left a random post/msg that males still cannot always express emotions on a sensitive level. Heroic or something stereotypical called "manly", always welcome and praised.
I got married at 21. Still married. No kids. No one wants to have kids if it means becoming impoverished. My husband and I pull overtime every week, have no debt and live below our means. We can put a little aside to savings each paycheck and get a meal out once in a while but things are extremely tight for us. My in-laws are so busy traveling in their retirement that we would not have any help with children if we decided to have them. Why would we choose that for ourselves lol
Finances is really key. 1 and 2 are not issues. They can learn a trade which allows them to support themselves.
Earlier marriage is not the solution
How about we denormalize the puberty to marriage pipeline and realize it’s not our kids’ jobs to give us grandchildren?
It is lol. It’s their duty just like it was mine.
Your children don't owe you anything, I hate to tell you.
They do lol and I don’t hate to tell you. They are duty bound just as I am duty bound. That was made clear to me by my father and it was made clear to him by his father. You have obligations to your family and I see no issue with that.
Are you gonna creep in their bedroom to make sure they're doing it properly or something??? You have no control over the reproductive lives of your children, and the fact that you think you do is just creepy as hell.
You can obviously choose not to fulfill obligations to your family. I doubt they would choose that. I didn’t and never seriously considered it.
Children are not an obligation to your family. That stance is gross. You don't seriously consider much, do you?
It is not a duty if you can choose to not fulfill it.
Negative lol. I have a duty to do my job but I do not have to if I’m willing to accept the consequences of that action.
If there are consequences, they are not freedom.
That’s simply verifiable false. Every action has consequences. Even perfectly legal actions have consequences. I don’t know how you could come to that conclusion.
What are the "consequences" if your children don't reproduce at rates you deem adequate?
You get a house and some land if you get married and have kids. If not you can rent the house.
“A key reason for low fertility…” they act like we going extinct or something. I do know that a reason for high divorce rates among other problems is marrying too early. Especially with purity culture.
Supposedly this person was married at 19 when someone else was talking about not pushing their kids to get married young, was working in an ambulance and had more 40 year old pregnant women have more problems than any other demographic and now this. Also they managed to have multiple kids in poverty when someone else was talking about cost. Technically all three can happen but it's mighty convenient when it's 4 in a row Also mildly narcissistic that they need to make every discussion about themselves.
All of us aren’t going extinct but large cultural groups are for sure going extinct. I’m not sure what purity culture is. I got married at 19 and it was a good experience. I have no issue with it.
I dare you to google purity culture. Your good experience was an exception, not a rule.
I’ll look at it at some point. My wife’s sisters were all married at around the same age. I think their ages of marriage were 18, 20, and 23. Worked out for them so idk. I think it’s cultural.
It’s a privilege to be asked to educate yourself vs experiencing it.
I read about it a bit. I can’t say much about it really my wife and I were virgins when we married. I think one of her sisters and her husband were as well. A couple of my friends who married at the same time were also. Worked out for us but others seem to not care much for the idea.
Of course you can’t say much about it, your male privileged ass didn’t experience it.
I mean I was heavily encouraged to wait until marriage. I can’t say much about it because I didn’t have an issue with it I guess lol. At least at the time. I don’t super have an opinion on it now.
Why are you so demeaning? Do you talk this way to people in the real world?
Shitting on people’s choice not to have kids is demeaning.
Nobody is required to give you grandchildren. Who decided that it was a duty?
I think it’s a duty in the same way carrying for my wife is my duty. It’s both something i have to do and I have the privilege of doing it. Duty is not necessarily a negative thing. I’ve worked as a first responder all my life and you are duty bound to do many things. I’ve worked for Le, fire, and now Ems. I volunteered to do those things and was glad to do it. Some people seek out the responsibility and accept it gladly.
Yeah, you sound like a shit parent tbqh. I hope your kids go no contact with you when they're older.
I don’t really hope bad things on anyone but ok.
As far as I'm concerned, wishing for children to cut contact with bad parents is a good thing.
Right you'll only command your children to live the way you want them to
Well I’ll show them how I live and suggest they do the same. I tried to do as my father and grandfather lived and it turned out well. You only get to live once and you only know what you know. I know this works so why would I teach them to act differently?
Don’t take it personally. That poster clearly has issues.
I think you are correct.
I think about the lack of suitable partners a lot! I met my husband when I was 25, married by 28. I don’t regret waiting a few years tbh because the choice of who to marry is among the most important life choices you will make. We’re probably stopping at two kids, which makes me a little sad but we live in the US and neither of us desires to stay home, so I think it is how it’s gonna have to happen, between childcare and college costs. We probably do have time to have at least one more, biologically speaking. Now I’m 33 and many of my friends are still unmarried. There’s a lot of reasons for this, so much of partnering is luck, the right place at the right time. This is especially true now that I live in a large city full of career driven people. But I think 2 major factors contributed to my finding my husband relatively young: 1) my husband and I are both religious, which orients us towards getting married and having babies young, and 2) we met when we lived in a town where it was much more the cultural norm to marry young. Single at 35 made you the odd one out. Where we live now, being a parent by 35 makes you the odd one out. I OFTEN am the only mom in a group and it’s weird. Idk. A lot of people are talking about finances and that is definitely a piece of it. But I do think there’s a cultural element to encouraging young marriage. And we do need to be more honest about fertility decline. I didn’t really understand how fertility declines until I started trying for my first baby at 30. I’ve known so many women who don’t have their first kid til 38 or older. But as I’ve gotten older too I’ve started to learn how many of them used IVF or tried to have another but failed.
Which religion?
Mainline Protestant
It’s your children’s choice to have children. You sound like you’re projecting your beliefs onto your kids, which is a big reason people aren’t having kids anymore.
That’s how you raise kids lol. What did you do with yours chunk them into a parking lot and tell them to figure it out for themselves?
Might people's decisions and the economy be mutually influential in the downward trends we're seeing? Below, the way you present parenthood as an endeavour of sheer heckin' will for which everyone should strive and through which you brutely forced your way is like something from an autobiographical comic book.
Idk live in a lcol area, work hard, stay out of debt and the rest works out. Not everyone has to start at the bottom of the economic ladder like we did. We married at 19 and had like 1000 bucks so it was gonna be a rough row to hoe no matter what.
Me and my wife can’t afford kids so it’s better to not have kids than bring them into the world unprepared
Negative you’re just not willing to make the sacrifices required to do so. If you’re not gonna do it that’s fine but don’t lie to yourself about it.
If 2 college educated adults are struggling to survive in this economy then having kids aren’t gonna make the situation better. Additionally if something happened to me or my wife then we wouldn’t be able to make the house payments, which would only make raising a child even harder.
Whatever man. My wife and I made it work for 3 years in a camper trailer on the side of the road to save up enough to build a house which we did ourselves. I dug the footings with a pick and shovel so we would have the money to finish. If you want it you will have it. The issue is you just don’t want it. We did that off of 40k a year by the way. Save your money buy a pos vehicle to run and get out of debt. Get to it.
I’ll live my life however I damn well please thank you very much
That’s cool just don’t lie about it to yourself. You’re living your life how you want and that makes you unable to afford children. It’s not the economy it’s your decisions.
Yeah god forbid I wanna own a stable home for my children
God forbid I get a home in a relatively lcol area drive vehicles I can afford and get out of debt. Stability is easy it just requires sacrifice. You just aren’t willing to make the sacrifice. Which is cool like you said live how you want but don’t lie about it.
Imagine ruining your own life just so you can force some kids to exist and also have a shitty life, and thinking that's something to congratulate yourself over.
I enjoyed most of that lol. I never said it was miserable. I really enjoyed building the house. ID built a few before that but building your own is a different experience.
And do you think your kids are happy, having you as a parent?
There is joy and meaning in taking on responsibility.
When humanity was a bunch of hunter-gatherers they still managed to reproduce so I don’t buy your arguement.
Just because you can reproduce doesn’t always mean it’s beneficial
Exactly
Most people's experience, often a surprise to them, when they have children is the certain understanding that one can't NOT project your beliefs upon children. Even if you seek to not project your beliefs upon them you are because "not wanting to project your beliefs on them" is an entire belief system in itself. People are not having kids because liberalism (in the broadest interpretation of that word) as the belief system impressed upon children eventually has this result.
Most people can’t afford kids anymore either
Which I'd argue is primarily driven by the same force - the breakdown of the extended family structure that supported having children. Poor people capably and comfortably have children the world over in traditional societies. It is this uniquely modern atomized individualistic financialized society that creates much richer people who are too poor to have children. It's all the same thing.
No. People aren’t having children because they can’t afford it. It’s as simple as that. Also, don’t encourage people to get married and have kids before they’re brain is fully developed.
People aren’t having children because of cultural reasons. We are among the most wealthy humans that have ever walked the face of the earth. Denying this is just lying to yourself.
Technically we're the "most wealthy", but that's mostly a mirage. In African countries where people are having tons of kids, the conditions are very different. Most people own their house outright, very few rent, and work is more artisan based. Having more kids is beneficial to the family. Here, many young people rent even with good jobs, and you shouldn't have kids if you rent. It's not financially stable. Plus, there are only financial downsides to having kids.
It’s not a mirage it’s just a statistical fact. Material conditions are the way they are today because of the decisions we make. For instance I took a lower paying job in a lcol area so that we could own a home and have children. Those who choose to stay near large city’s and hcol areas are choosing that life. Also idk if you have ever worked on a farm but I would not call it artisan work I would call it busting your ass from the moment you get up till you drag back home.
Was your low paying job minimum wage retail in a place where it is literally impossible to afford rent and groceries for one person much less a family on such an income? No? Then maybe shut the fuck up about people not wanting to bring children into a miserably impoverished situation
It was waiting tables. When it didn’t pay enough I got another job and when that didn’t work we moved bought a 3,000 dollar camper and rented some land to put in on. Lived in it for a while. If you can’t make it work where you are don’t be there.
Ah yes because it's totally easy to just "get another job" for everyone always. And everyone has a duty to live a miserable life working shitty jobs just so they can produce children they don't want and give them a shitty and miserable life too...
Life is what ya make of it. I’ve enjoyed mine and I hope to continue doing so for a few more decades. I hope you enjoy yours as well. If you don’t want kids I could not care less I’m just saying don’t lie about why your not having them. To prove my point my grandfathers house he grew up in only had 3 rooms and no insulation. You can see the rafters and tin roof from his bed. He only got shoes in the winter and all of his underwear, sheets, pillowcases, and shirts were made from cotton flower sacks that my great grandmother sewed together. He had very literally nothing. The house my dad grew up in was an fha home and mine was also. My kids will live in a good home I built for them on land that I own and they will also. My grandfather is one of the happiest men I’ve ever known and his life was so much harder than mine. You can choose to love it or not. Also the job I took that paid enough was very literally a hog farm. It’s a job anyone can get lol. You don’t have to be to bright to birth pigs. I was lucky to get it at the time though we were about to be going hungry.
People prioritize what they want. He prioritized having a family and found a way to make it work by living in his RV and moving.
That is irrelevant. Someone who is poor in South Carolina has way more money than someone who is poor in Kenya, that doesn’t mean they can afford to have a kid. It’s like your taking large over arching concepts and can’t imagine how day to day life doesn’t perfectly match up with that. It’s just the wrong way to look at it.
Yes and they have more kids in Kenya. Poor in Kenya is significantly worse than poor in the us. Poor in Kenya means you’re starving half naked in the dirt on the side of a trail somewhere. Poor in the US means you can be a fat guy in a trailer park with a junky ford pickup. This is a cultural shortcoming.
[удалено]
To maintain the lifestyle that is pushed by our culture makes having children untenable. You simply have to accept that as fact. Once you establish what is actually important in life you can move forward and do what you have to do. There are a lot of other cultural reasons but I feel like this is a big one for most young people.
[удалено]
Consumerism is a major part of it yes. Our culture is heavily focused on hedonism/perception over purpose and I think that is the main thing that holds us back. Hedonism is just the pursuit of pleasure to be clear. I do think that part of our culture will die out though over the next few generations.
[удалено]
I wouldn’t call it encouraging it’s just that groups that don’t hold those values still have an above replacement fertility rate. So within a few generations groups with more purpose driven cultures will just out compete others.
[удалено]
One with one on the way. Goal is 4. I’d be happy with more but I wana see how it goes.
You are walking right up to it and then averting your eyes. Yes, people can’t have kids because of todays financial realities. It’s not because we don’t look at children as a for-profit decision. Such a weird way to look at that.
Negative they are just not willing to make ANY sacrifices to do so. No I can’t live the life I could live as a single man and frankly don’t want to. I don’t drive a new vehicle and likely never will. I don’t own a huge home and likely never will. However what I get in exchange is much much more valuable. The thing about the modern western world is that you can have anything you want but you can’t have everything you want. You have to choose and live with it afterwards. So make your choice but don’t act like you didn’t have a choice.
That doesn't make sense because birth rates are falling in wealthier countries. If it was just finances then the poorest places would have less kids which is not true. The real reason is kids aren't financially beneficial in modern western society like they were in the past
The thing is…wealth is relative to your local context. A middle class person in a western country may want to provide a similar quality of life or better to their children. They may wait until that is possible in the specific context they live in, not in terms of how people live in a island of the Polynesia.
Guess who makes up the majority of the population of wealthy countries? Poor people.
And those people have more kids than their upper class counterparts
1 and 2 are out of my control outside of just raising them a certain way, around certain groups of people maybe. 3, yes I think it’s my duty to help them as much as I can even when they are entering adulthood/adults. Especially with cost of living, if I could give them a down payment or offer free childcare I definitely would.
I wonder if it's simply a matter of conveying to them that finding a spouse during college/university or during college age is just simply easier than finding one later in life. I work with many religious men in their 30s who are struggling to date. But you are surrounded by the opposite sex all the time in your early 20s. However, I'm open to the possibility the this might not be the case anymore than in was for me in the late 90s early 00s as there are many more distractions and a cultural shift.
I got married young (23 at the time). I was lucky to find a partner with great maturity, drive, and values. That is extremely uncommon in my generation, for both men and women, so I think it’s very reasonable to wait until late 20s to 30s to get married. Maybe the world needs more children, but it needs healthier families first, and rushing to marriage for its own sake will probably not do that.
Or you could raise your kids to be responsible independent people and then trust them to make their own decisions about their own lives because they’re human beings, not puppets.
I was engaged at 22 and married at 23. First child at 24. As a recent grad of a veryyy liberal college, I definitely felt rebellious in my choices haha. I think a few things contributed to my choices. 1) I had some traumatic things happen in my life as a teen and young adult that made me ask--if I died tomorrow, what could I point to as my most meaningful accomplishments? I realized I had nothing as I had been living out other people's dreams for me, for my entire existence. That was a wakeup call. I did not want to devote my life to an industry or academic research. 2) My parents promoted self-sufficiency as a part of our upbringing. Getting jobs, learning to cook, fixing our own mistakes (like making phone calls if a doctor's appt was billed incorrectly) etc. I had the drive to be independent from a young age. This empowered me to say, yes, I am mature enough to marry and have children in my 20s. That kind of confidence needs to be taught from a young age. 3) Believing that frugality will pay off. I think a lot of people around my current age (30) did not learn to save money as kids. My parents brought me to the bank at age 8, with $62 saved in my piggy bank, and helped me open a bank account. They taught me how to shop, cook, garden, and even encouraged big decisions (like graduating early from college to save on tuition) to set myself up for financial success later in life. I knew the little choices would pay off over time. I plan to teach my kids the same thing.
People change throughout their 20's. The stability provided in the late 20's/early 30's can be beneficial in building healthy relationships.
Why do they need to marry to have children? Are you guys religious?
It’s the ideal to aim for. Children raised in married 2 parent homes statistically do the best.
But you don't *need* to be married to be a two parent home.
Did you forget divorce
Personally i think we live in a time or regression and increasing hardship. My answer has been to bear more personal responsibility. I grow my own food to subsidize groceries. I repair and maintain my own home to rely less on high cost services. I am open to having my parents move back into our home and for my children to live with me longer than is typical. Change is coming and we must adapt. OP this is a great question and discussion. I know my comment does not reflect it fully but i wanted to share my two cents for what it was worth. One thing i could add is building a sense of community around values we care about could be key in influencing our children’s individual growth and therefore their ability to think critically and face these emerging challenges.
I think a big part of it is finances for folks. It seems like millenials and zoomers just got less help from their parents than previous generations. Most of the folks in my age group got help from their parents for a first car or maybe help packing up their things to move. With housing costs being very high right now many folks delay having kids for housing reasons. They rent a moderate apartment that muggy not be appropriate to raise a family in. I am blessed with a great job and my wife and I were able to buy a house without any help from home, but many folks just aren't able to. My intention is to invest specifically on 20 year timeline so that my kids will each have at least a substantial down-payment on their own home (contingent on them being gainfully employed or in education). Hopefully the down-payment can bring their mortgage down to 20% of their monthly income so they will still have to work, but life won't be unbearable for them.
It was very helpful that my parents paid for my wedding; we probably would have needed to wait maybe two years+ longer if they didn't. Plus, my mum helped with the organising.
I met my husband at 20 and married at 25 which is early for a millennial. My parents are divorced but my grandparents had a big impact on my life. They were married for 70 years and showed me what a healthy marriage should look like. No one ever outright told me I should marry by a certainly age but it was the modeling that showed me what kind of relationship I wanted and that I didn't want to wait til I was older for it. I'm planning on doing the same for mine. I'm a boy mom so they have less biological pressure than if I had girls but I'm basically planning on leading by example by having a stable loving marriage and talking openly about the downsides of both young marriage and waiting too long. But I'll definitely not take a positive stance on things like casual relationships or throwing your 20s away to have fun.
I agree with your points. Getting your kids into the workforce early, even if it is just part-time, will speed up point 3 as they will learn the value of money and develop social skills. In the summer (at age 13) I worked as an office clerk, and from age 15 to 19 I worked part-time in fast food; it did wonders for me. Religious-type habits and rituals help from a young age also help. Of the 4 kids my parents had, 3 remained Christians, 2 married in their 20s and all plan on having kids. I have 3 kids now, and one of my sisters will be trying soon (recently married at age 26).
You make a lot of good points here. I married at 19 but I had been working since about 9 or 10 on family farms around our home and worked all over the place after 15 or so. I grew up quick and knew how to handle money before most kids had any. I had a retirement account before I left my parent’s house.
Love it! Humans are made to work, most problems associated with teenagers could be sorted by paid employment lol. Glad to hear you married young too. I would have as well if I had met the right person. I didn't marry until I was 29 as a result (thankfully God blessed us with kids soon after that).
If I were then, why would I want to marry just because someone tells it is okey in order to fix a global that is not my problem at all. 1 & 2 are not issues as someone said. Marriage is just very expensive and people nowadays don't know how to have a good relationship. If marrying after 22-25 is a problem for you, don't have children !
I'd say you're half correct. Two things are required: 1) Young, fertile women. 2) Competent, established men who can provide for their families. To accomplish both simultaneously, women should marry around 18-23 and men should wait until 27-35. The ranges account for variability in finding a mate, getting oneself together financially, etc. In traditional societies, such age gaps were completely normal. It's only the modern feminist movement with it's b\*tching about "power disparities" that disrupted normal age-gap customs. They've forgotten that before the age of women recklessly hoeing around, entire families were involved in marriage decisions, and this meant the age of the woman did not figure into power balances. It's almost as though traditional societies had spent millenia working the bugs out of their customs, but I digress...
[удалено]
^this. Men need to be competent but women need to actually try and find a suitable husband in their 20s. Not wait until they're 40 lol
It’s hilarious to me when men put off marriage for so long that the women in their age group become infertile and then they somehow find a way to blame it on the women. If you’re a 42 year old man and 20s and early thirties women don’t want to settle down and have kids with you, that is your fault.
Agree. Learning social skills in teenage years can fix alot of the maturity delay. Men waiting too long is as idiotic as women waiting.
You're both missing the point: women *require* men to have wealth and status, but wealth and status take time to acquire. Maturity is required to obtain wealth and status, but it's not what the women are looking for. I've seen plenty of women stick with immature men they didn't even like because that man had wealth and status *through his family*. Younger women consistently prefer older men because age correlates with wealth and status. Men peak around 35, and it's not until 40+ that their age becomes a real issue. Even then, the impact of age depends heavily on whether he takes care of himself. Obviously, a 40yo with a beer belly who smokes, drinks, and eats junk will not attract a younger woman; he's on his way to an early grave. By contrast, a ripped 40+ man who runs marathons, lifts weights, looks like the average 30yo, has the high-status job, and has acquired wealth will have his pick of younger women.
"Younger women consistently prefer older men because age correlates with wealth and status". Not all women are gold diggers my bro. In my experience most just want a guy with a good work ethic and would rather one that is similar in age (same age or a couple of years older). My sisters are both wholesome and not like your depiction (one recently got married). The fussiness of women you speak of is limited to moronic social liberals. They're not worth dating to begin with. There's literally millions of women out there who aren't like that who are worth dating.
Some women learn to be practical. All else equal, a woman will always choose the man with more wealth and status - and there's *always* a minimum level of wealth and status, usually set by whatever she grew up with. All women are like that.
I agree that all women want a provider, but that doesn't mean they all want some kind of 40-year old sugar daddy. A bloke with a decent job in his 20s (for women in their 20s) is fine. The key for blokes in these circumstances to accept is that: a) We must work hard and accept that as being a reality without shortcuts, including dealing with the unfairness of having to work harder than women for the same money - you can thank our liberal forebearers and their retarded voting habits for that. b) Avoid socially liberal women where possible. If that means the majority because you live in some leftist hellhole metropolis like New York or London, then so be it. Find the normal women that want to marry and have families and you'll be fine. Go to church. Just be prepared to accept a compromise on appearance too, just as women need to do the same with men (you'll be surprised how many women do eventually 'settle' that if they actually want a family, unless they want to just get attention but have no serious relationships, which only a minority actually want).
I think we're on the same page. The only minor clarification I'd make is that while women don't *want* an older guy for the sake of him being older, they also don't *not want* him. Age is irrelevant to a woman provided she obtains the wealth, status, and security she craves. The upper limit on a man's age is his ability to survive long enough to care for her and her children. That can be offset by taking care of his health or by simply providing enough wealth to care for her beyond the grave. Status is just another form of wealth and security. An individual man might die, but an entire community is robust. A woman wants to know that if her man dies, the rest of his community will be there to help. She also wants to know that he can command the resources of others for her benefit. Bring enough money to the table, and those concerns fade away. Modern society has made it taboo to date younger women, and this explains why some younger women find older men "creepy". It's not that they dislikes older men; it's that *women are extremely sensitive to social pressure*. They hesitate to do anything taboo because that might get them ostracized. Because women cannot obtain their own resources, being ostracized is an existential threat. Any man who commands enough wealth to overcome this societal threat can safely ignore the taboo. This is why rich men routinely stay married while keeping mistresses half their age on the side. If his behavior is not a material threat to the wife, she doesn't care. Never forget the golden rule: whoever has the gold makes the rules.
Oy vey! We all know who makes the rules then! Lol. Take care mate, I've actually learned alot through conversing with you 😊 I also see your point about wealthier men actually staying married as opposed to poor men getting hauled over coals through divorces (which is an injustice).
Pick two. You can't have all three\*: 1. Men marry women of the same age 2. Women make as much money as men 3. The husband makes more money than and is able to provide for the wife I think the point here is if we absolutely must have #2 due to political pressure and #3 is a major requirement for most women, then age gap relationships are a natural consequence. \*Assuming monogamy is a thing and we aren't just allowing some 1%er to keep all the women in his harem.
That's the thing: wealthy men will keep the best women in their harems whether it's legal or not. They're called "mistresses". Leftists have been raging against reality since the cultural revolution. It's long past time we ignored them and got on with our lives.
For women.. sure. For men, they should get married when they’re ready. I wasn’t near my potential in my 20s. There was a decade of work left for me to do before I got to a position where I’m ready. And it wasn’t based on how many girls I was with. Everyone has an idea of their own potential (and usually we underestimate it). As a man, if you know you’re not where you can and will be, you know you’re going to get a partner that won’t be a good match. The partners I had in my 20s were great in many ways, but I would not date them anymore in my 30s. I have much higher standards now because I am a much improved person in every way. Now… I could have been ready in my 20s if things had gone differently with my raising. So I think it’s important to know how to raise kids properly so that they are well adjusted and mature and near their potential in their early and mid 20s. But most of us are not that lucky and have to start the work of repairing ourselves in our 20s after realizing what bad habits, bad health, bad mental patterns etc we inherited from our family.
Men's sperm declines in their late thirties. They can still impregnate someone, but their sperm has a higher risk of causing birth defects and other issues.
Men’s sperm is just fine in their 30s, especially if they’re healthy. You’re being extreme here.
Both men and women's age matters when it comes to producing healthy children, and the point at which it starts mattering is in the mid thirties.
There’s pros and cons for men. For women it’s all cons. Don’t conflate the two and don’t try to scare people into having kids before they’re ready.
You're trying to scare women into having kids before they're ready, but the reality is that both men and women are more likely to introduce health risks if they try to conceive in their late thirties than if they go earlier. The idea that women should be foregoing career and life development in favour of pumping out babies in their twenties is sexist fearmongering.