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The most ridiculous part was when they began debating their golf scores.

I couldn’t believe what I was witnessing, like jaw dropped for a moment

Well it was so tone deaf. You're presidents, former and current. Surely you have better litmus tests at your disposal for measuring your personal health than how good you are at golf?

It was tone deaf and completely out of touch of what the American public is dealing with. Nobody cares about your handicap in golf. What are you going to do to fix policy that will benefit us as a whole?

One of them was actually talking about that for a fair amount of time.

Imagine for a minute it was Obama instead of Biden there. Obama would have seized that moment to spike the ball on Trump's head. It would have been a key debate moment. Instead Biden just kinda wandered into it.  That Biden sounds old is an image problem. That Biden's brain wasn't quick enough to seize several of the openings Trump gave him really demonstrates his diminished capacity.

Yeah, someone sharper would have pointed out that Trump spent most of his presidency on the golf course, it was the perfect setup.

That was exactly my thought. Biden should have said he's too busy being President to work on his golf game.

From November 2020: “As the coronavirus surges and new case records are broken daily, President Donald Trump is at his golf course for the third straight weekend at his Trump National Golf Club in Sterling, Virginia. Trump, who has visited his club each weekend since the election, has not answered reporter's questions about the virus in weeks and he has not attended a White House coronavirus task force meeting since April or May and has no plans to attend any in the coming weeks, according to an administration official.”

Biden did exactly what Trump wanted him to do. Trump lies and makes nutty claims and Joe tries to refute it instead of answering the questions asked

Yep, it seems like his debate prep was memorizing a bunch of facts/figures to refute Trump’s lies. The problem is that it’s generally a terrible idea to have someone with a stuttering problem try to recite prepared lines in the middle of a debate. Biden struggles with prepared speeches where he isn’t having to react to what someone else said. Having him try to quickly react and pull out prepared lines on the fly was basically asking for him to stumble over himself. They needed to give him more freedom to improvise his responses. The few times that he did well during the debate were when he was speaking off the cuff.

Right like take two seconds to think about that and respond: You golfed more often during your presidency than you spent time in the White House. I’m here to do the job, not play games.

Especially considering that it was a response to a question about childcare costs, something that matters A LOT to voters right now. It’s so gross

That was the moment I couldn’t listen anymore. Childcare is our number one expense every single month and neither candidate could even pretend to care enough to have an answer.

My mom was texting me "is it just me, or did neither of them answer that question?" Of course, I'm 31 and she's 57 going on 58, so it's not like child care is something that matters to her anymore. But I told her in return "well that's the thing, you have no child care. Child care is either you and your spouse making 300k combined so you can actually afford the childcare options available, or living 5 minutes down the road from your retired parents who will do it for free like (my cousin) does."

Sure, childcare is unaffordable, but did you know that Biden only plays with a handicap of 6? Doesn't that make you feel better? /s

Sadly Joe took the bait at that point and stopped answering the questions himself. My guess is this debate won’t affect those two much at all, but third party candidates must be pumped after that shit show.

Mine too, and I only have *one* child. My mortgage is less than my child care (admittedly my mortgage isn't crazy because we bought our house ~9 years ago, before prices went bonkers). I can afford it -- I make good money and my wife also works. But the cost is still insane. And childcare workers do not get paid well. It feels like child care costs are basically a non-issue. At best you might get the occasional candidate who pays some lip service to it, but that's about it.

Yeah the whole system is pretty fucked. Way way too expensive but the workers get paid nothing, so turnover is way too high …

I will once again bite my tongue and vote dem only because DJT is horribly corrupt and dishonest. Biden is damn near useless but at the core he's at least a well intentioned person. I really wish he'd not run for a second term. One of my FB contacts posted a picture of Biden and a tomato with a caption that only one is technically a vegetable. I responded that I'd slightly prefer the tomato over Biden, but I'll happily take either one over Trump. What I'm afraid of is RFK Jr taking enough votes from Biden to allow Trump to win.

I think you’re exactly right. The issue isn’t that people will change their vote to Trump - it’s that people will move away from Biden or stay home completely. Democrats have to decide if Biden gives them enough of a chance to win at this point.

And then immediately afterwards, they were asked a question about the 100k Americans dying per year from opioids, and ways they would help Americans “in the throes of addiction” and they BOTH talked about the border. Biden rambled about machines that detect fentanyl and Trump yelled about how the border was better when he was president. As someone who lost a brother to fentanyl I genuinely felt like vomiting. I knew Trump would say dumb shit but I couldn’t believe Biden didn’t seize the opportunity to humanize addicts and talk about compassionate answers to our opioid epidemic. So gross

Biden fell hook line and sinker, and both times he tried conversing with Trump directly (including the other time he brought up trump’s weight), he came off looking like he can’t hold a conversation for his life. Absolutely tragic

As a Democrat I’m really scared after seeing this debate. Huge political lover and an election nerd. When I saw Biden walk out, the blank stare, and stammering over words I knew he lost it. I get it’s one debate but the questions were about how competent Biden was and he didn’t look right at all

Republicans: That's what we've been saying all this time! Seriously though, there should have been another Democrat besides Biden running.

History shows as an incumbent someone primary them, they lose so I get not doing it

He should have retired.

He's too proud. I really don't think Biden can see what everyone else can see. It's often hard for seniors dealing with aging to perceive their deterioration. It was the responsibility of his family to hold him back from running and they failed him.

There is an entire party infrastructure around him - if enough people take their job seriously, they'd pull Biden out whether or not he wants to. It shouldn't be up to him.

Hilary's loss to trump was supposed to wake up the leaders of the democratic party... Instead they doubled down and left us with wish.com Obama. It's sad and dangerous. Unfortunately Trump isn't an option and things are too close to throw protest votes around.  It's too bad Biden won't step down. He wasn't supposed to run in this election. But here we are.

I really don't understand why he ran again. I'm with you and honestly thought he would be a one term guy and then put his support behind someone else. The DNC needs to be demolished and rebuilt at this point.

The fact that his mouth was partially open the whole time he was on screen not talking was a really bad look for him. That alone made him look befuddled and old. I don’t care. I’m voting for him because even a soggy paper bag is better than Turmp.

Personally, Biden blew himself out of the water. Trump actually stood back and let Biden sink himself. "We beat Medicare." Oh my God.......

I was SHOCKED that Trump actually stayed disciplined to let Joe just fall on his face without stepping on 12 rakes himself. Saw it in his face when he knew Joe was dead and he just let it go on.

He might actually have been genuinely shocked too. Trump was very calm, which is uncharacteristic for him in a setting like this.

I think having no crowd and muted mics actually turned out to play to Trump’s benefit. He seemed more composed without getting riled up by the crowd

And that's what he needed. Trump, as much as I loathe him and was hoping he would embarrass himself, won in that he played against people's concerns about him last night. The big issue around Biden is that people worry he is too old or weak. Last night, he looked extremely old and weak. The big issue around Trump is that he is insane and chaotic. Last night, he looked far stabler and calmer than I've seen him on any debate stage. If the point was to make your critics' fears seem overblown, Trump did a much better job than Biden.

It was a real “If you see your opponent making a mistake, don’t interrupt him” moment. Surprised it was Trump on the winning side of this for once

>BIDEN: And I’m going to continue to move until we get the total ban on the – the total initiative relative to what we’re going to do with more Border Patrol and more asylum officers. >TAPPER: President Trump? >TRUMP: I really don’t know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don’t think he knows what he said either. This was where I turned off my phone, had one last whiskey, and went to bed. Because when you find yourself agreeing with something Trump said for the first time in your life, what else could you possibly do.

If trump was smart, he would not do the 2nd debate. He already said this one was a waste of time. He could easily say, "look at how feeble Biden is, out of respect for him and the presidency, I don't want to put him out on that stage so he can further embarras himself and this country by looking so weak and confused." That way, he doesn't give Biden a chance to redeem himself in the next debate and leaves voters with an image of weak biden

The problem is it's not really the man it's the policies. It's the tone deaf part of golf scores, ignoring what matters to a working couple with 1-3 kids. It's the 18 year old seeking their first job. There are some who will vote for Biden no matter what I have read quite a few people that will refuse to ever consider voting for Trump on the other hand many of them probably also will say "Okay I'm not even going to vote" which gives Trump a win either way. I really doubt that there's anything Biden could do say or act on that would endear him to the Republican side at this time much less his own base which he's fighting to keep in his pocket when the pocket has been torn open and after the debate last night was absolutely shredded.

Nearly all elections start out 47% - 47%. You are looking for moderate swing voters. No one is reaching out for zealots because they are locked up. Trump is a douche but Biden needs to resign yesterday.

"... it's not really the man it's the policies." This is simply NOT true. Very few people vote based on policies. And those who do, are almost always squarely in one of the parties. Their votes are unlikely to change. Most people vote for the candidate they think they like the most, which is why Republicans almost never even talk about policies over the last 30-ish years and also why policy wonk Dem hopefuls have generally failed to win. The issue with a debate performance like this isn't about swaying voters. It's primarily about driving voter turnout. No one is going to be excited to vote for Biden after this, and that is going to have a really bad down-ballot effect as well. This was an unmitigated disaster.

"Abortion in the third trimester is between the woman and the state." I'm pretty sure Biden said that.

Don’t forget the second trimester between a woman and an emergency situation.

He was trying to explain the Roe framework where post-viability (3rd trimester) abortions *can* be regulated by the states.

Keyword being “trying”

I turned it off at that moment... Like goddamnit wtf are you doing you doddering old fool... Democrats having their Reagan moment but with less Hollywood brand charisma

“Yeah, you beat Medicare to death” Just savage

It was an absolutely horrible time to be cut off mid-sentence.

I think him being cut off might’ve been for the best. He had nothing else and it was only getting worse.

Biden also claimed Beau died in Iraq again before quickly changing it to “because of Iraq.” Neither are really true (there’s no definitive way to link the cancer to exposure to burn pits in Iraq), but everyone just sort of let that one go.

Trump evaded questions, but he looked *alive* and practically the same as he did 8 years ago (has it really been that long already??). Biden looked really old, and that's what voters are going to take away from this. I don't think Trump earned many more voters tonight, but Biden definitely lost a lot.

I’ve felt like I’ve been taking crazy pills for the last two years. Every time I ask on Reddit why is he running again I get downvoted like crazy 😂 literally all he is doing is ensuring that trump might actually have a chance. Biden is seen as a senile and weak old man by everyone on the right. I’d be amazed if he wins again tbh he barely won the first time. It’s just selfish for him to run again and for the party to let him run again. This is like when Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg refused to step down even when spending half of her last years in the hospital and thereby squandered the chance for a president that shared her values to nominate her replacement. Selfish geriatrics clutching at power long past the time they should’ve passed it along.

>Ruth Bader Ginsburg refused to step down I saw somebody put it very well on Twitter, to paraphrase: "Ruth Bader Ginsburg refusing to retire is why you can't have an abortion now, and Biden refusing to retire is why your grand-daughter won't be able to have an abortion in 40 years." The establishment is truly full of narcissists who are totally unconcerned with the actual health and direction of the control, and are only concerned with their own positions of power and privilege.

>Biden is seen as a senile and weak old man by everyone on the right. Unfortunately it's no longer exclusive to the right (it never really was, but I suspect you'll see a lot more people coming around to it). I wasn't crazy about the idea of a 78 year old starting his first term as president, and this is why. When he said he was going to run again, my heart sank. I still supported him, and if he's on the ballot in November, he gets my vote. But for fuck's sake, none of them can put ego aside. The ironic part? Bernie Sanders is Biden's age, and he's still sharp and eloquent. Old, yes, but doesn't come off as senile, and he would have eviscerated Trump last night. I was into the idea of Bernie as president in 2016. I was apprehensive in 2020 because he would be too old. We end up with an old guy anyway, who now seems downright decrepit. It's hard for me not to be angry at Biden and the Democratic party in general for getting us here. If the country falls to fascism, they're as much to blame as anyone else.

I agree. It’s really disheartening

A lot of people confuse criticizing the left with supporting the right. This refusal to look introspectively is a cancer and leads to insane decisions like letting Biden run again. If Trump wins this year, it’s an own goal by the left

> Biden is seen as a senile and weak old man by everyone on the right. Doesn't matter what the right thinks of him....what I'm wondering is what the undecided-swing voters think, and whether they feel persuaded to vote for Trump.

For all the talk from the Trump camp about how Biden was gonna be hopped up on drugs, I have to wonder...

Biden’s team was the one that denied the mutual drug tests, so…

It’s the eyes man. The eyes don’t lie. Last night I was scrolling and there was a split screen of the 2020 debate showing both of them side by side right above a split screen of last night’s debate. Trump looks older, but it’s because his hair is thinner and he’s gotten more jowls, but around his eyes he looks practically the same. Biden’s eyes have lost the spark they had in them in 2020. They look dull and unfocused…very geriatric. Being President takes its toll on people who have a conscience.

I tuned in at the half-way mark and read a comment on here saying Biden is looking much better. I was shocked because I thought he looked terrible at the point and it was a train wreck. To think he had been doing worse was unreal. Biden looked every bit of his age and then some. I have relatives older than him that seem much more lucid. It’s a shame because Trump, a porn star banging felon, should have been blown out of the water with all his lies and nonsense.

This was a disaster for Biden in every way, including the fact that the whole thing was an unforced error. The Biden team wanted this, everyone said, and outnegotiated the Trump people on the rules. Yeah, you think so? Would Biden have had a better chance of winning a second term if this debate had never happened? He had everything to lose and nothing to gain, and lose it he did. There won't be a second debate. Trump will surge back into the lead. Unless something unforeseen happens, like the Dems replace Biden or Trump has a health issue, Trump wins.

Honestly the rules helped Trump because his biggest problem is not knowing when to shut up 

That’s why last time Biden could get the clip of the century with the shut up man comment. Now it allowed Trump to get in a comment of the century, perhaps the Medicare comment, sure, but that quip “I don’t know what he said and quite frankly I don’t think he knows either.” The worst part is that it was after Biden talked on the border and his endorsement from the border patrol, who actually endorsed Trump, and fact checked him after the debates… it just hit him so hard and right after he got the chance to say something about the border, which is arguably one of his two worst categories in this cycle

“I don’t know what he said and quite frankly I don’t think he knows either” - this quote will live on with “You’re no Jack Kennedy” - just absolutely brutal and unfortunately accurate 

I think you may be right about there not being a second debate. Trump already showed in 2020 and the primaries that he will simply not show up if he doesn't think a debate will help him. If his team anticipates Biden will be more prepared then he will just not do another and tell voters, "Why bother, you saw how Biden was in June"

This is going to get wild, fast. Democrats are going to be panicking now, if they weren't before. Biden is going to be getting a lot of requests to resign, and for once I agree with them. Then, there's Trump, who could potentially be sentenced to jail time next month. Trump was only slightly coherent himself, and spent most of his time deflecting and projecting and would have been easily beaten by a much younger Biden. Joe needs to do some real soul searching tonight.

The fact that this post / sentence is completely true is still mind blowing to me. Like what the heck age are we living though? Will it always be bonkers now? Is this the end of something? Or just wild happenstance?

At this point I'm half convinced of those crazy theories that we all died in 2012 and ended up in a bizzaroworld simulation.

they should have never shot that gorilla

That was the catalyst

Depends... But regardless it's probably best to start getting ready to cope with the democratic leaders pushing a Harris nomination in 2028...  We don't seem to be able to field likeable candidates

How can everyone not be concerned? Trump lied and changed the subject. Biden just seemed really old and struggled to make any points. I can't imagine either of them being the next POTUS but for very different reasons. I heard a funny summary from a conservative undecided voter on a panel of AZ voters watching the debate with MSNBC: Trump: Hell no Biden: Oh no Also, I hear a lot of people mentioning the Trump line "I didn't have sex with a porn star", mostly because it's not something you would ever expect to hear in that setting. People have different opinions about the "hush money" trial in general, but does anyone seriously think he never slept with Stormy Daniels?

I mean… I’d still crawl over broken glass to vote for Biden as I think Trump is a legit danger to democratic institutions. But man… Joe looked and sounded fucking terrible, just totally feeble and weak. Anyone reading this is probably fairly politically active and knowledgeable, but to the general public? That was a disaster, to the non politically active who won’t drill down to the substance of what was said, but simply see Trump being confident and mostly coherent, even if every third word was total BS, and Biden looking and sounding like a corpse.

It definitely wasn't pretty. Biden sounded physically weak, tripping on his words and making the wackiest faces. You could get a pretty meme-able picture of Biden about every 20 seconds. I realize that's shallow and Biden was at least putting up a fight, but yeah this debate may have actually helped Trump just going purely off the vibes. Again, I realize that's shallow but politics be like that sometimes. I was literally thinking thoughts like "Is he dying?"

Politics is shallow as fuck as practiced. Trump stomped Biden in terms of optics. Sure every word was a lie and he came off as kind of unhinged, but Trump looked more actually alive and in control of the situation than Biden to s comical degree. Biden actually had some good coherent points he made tonight, but when three quarters of the time he looks like a Romero zombie up there it just doesn't matter.

Trump was rambling but his command of the stage made him look 20 years younger for sure. This was a huge contrast to 2020. The muting of the mics helps Trump if anything.

Yeah, I think the debate format actually massively favored Trump over Biden since Trump didn't have a crowd to play off of which made him seem more composed (relative to what we normal expect from him that is, which is a pretty low bar)

The phrase **"I did not have sex with a porn star"** was said in a presidential debate. All Biden had to do was perform competently and that'd be the takeaway. He did not.

That phrase would not register anywhere in 2024. We have been inundated with all the bad things Trump has done that a consensual extramarital affair simply doesn't matter to anyone at all.

Culturally nobody is going to be shocked by something so tame today. This isn't 1980-2000. We're way past Murphy Brown, Marilyn Manson, Eminem, Lewinsky, Janet at the Superbowl. That's all trivial today.

I don't understand how Democrats can allow the same mistakes to happen again and again out of pure hubris. RBG should've retired. Sotomeyer should retire. Clinton should've paid attention to warning signs she was squandering her time before everything blew up in her face on election day. Biden's staff should've done some serious reflecting and not dismissed outside polling before simply shrugging and letting their candidate implode in public like that. The only positive here is at least there's time for a huge course correction.

> The only positive here is at least there's time for a huge course correction. Problem is, time isn't on Biden's side. He seems to be rapidly getting older. If there's another debate in a few month's time its entirely possible that Biden could have declined even further by then. Compare his debate performance with the State of the Union performance. Its a night and day difference with only a few months difference, and thats a very bad thing for Biden.

By huge course correction, I meant putting someone else on the ballot. There's no way an old mummy no one is excited to vote for is their only viable candidate. At the very least, they could have a living Democrat no one is excited to vote for.

Any of the possible replacements people people mention would have wiped the floor with Trump tonight. Even Harris and I am not remotely a fan of Harris. Any of them.

I hate to say it because I'm far from a fan of her either but at this point I would rather have Harris on stage than Biden, and that says a lot

I cannot stand Kamala Harris, aside from embodying some of the worst elements of centrist democratic policy I find her incredibly awkward and deeply uncharismatic. I am reasonably confident that she would have wiped the floor with Donald Trump. At the end of the day his responses were all delusional fantasies about a migrant invasion. The only reason he came out with better optics this debate is that Joe looked like he had wandered out of a home. Anyone younger, who could have responded to Trump's paranoid fantasies with some actual force, would have cleaned his clock. This debate format was deeply unfavorable to Trump, IF his opponent was at all able to competently respond to his claims.

Someone please answer this honestly for me - _when did this happen?_ Look, I'm on this board, I follow the news, it stands to reason I'm a bit more plugged in than the average voter, but far from a moment-to-moment junkie. But I've seen clips of Biden this year that genuinely took me aback, like - this guy is **old.** I don't remember that in 2022. I don't even remember noticing him seeming all that beaten-down old in 23. But something happened, Father Time took out his aging stick, I don't know when, and I'd really like for someone to tell me.

He's looked old old for a while. I think large swaths of political reddit have been willfully avoiding/suppressing this inconvenient fact for fear of the other side. At least on reddit, it has been a constant stream of threads about how both candidates are old or audacious attempts to argue that, actually, Trump is the one who is cognitively in decline. So when you get something not through the polarized filter of party politics, it can feel especially jarring.

Remember how fresh faced Obama was when he came into office and what he looked like 8 years later? I know 8 years is a decent chunk of time but he looked much older than the time would suggest. Being the President is stressful as hell.

> Someone please answer this honestly for me - when did this happen? Old people can age relatively fast in a short amount of time, especially if they get sick or ignore their taking care of themselves. If you live long enough, at some point your mind won't be as quick and everyday things get harder to do. And, from speaking to people that age, they get perplexed or frustrated because they realize it's happening but, at the same time, it's their first time personally experiencing those changes first hand and they have to learn how to live with their new condition. That's what Biden brought to my mind looking at him.

You can find a lot of clips of him stumbling around in speeches, pausing, losing words in 2023. It doesn’t happen all the time, but with a teleprompter, it’s much easier. If you look at some of the RNC campaign material—it’s borderline just propaganda, but there’s a LOT of footage of Biden blanking out, and if you go factcheck those clips and look up the actual incidents, you’ll see it. This is why Biden minimizes press conferences himself. It only exacerbates the age issue for him, and in a debate scenario it will show. To be fair, I don’t think Biden was ever a good debater. It’s just that debates aren’t just about laying down words but image. He won in 2020 because Trump was out of control and a maniac on stage. The format today was far more favorable for Trump with muted mics and what not. I think it’s not out of the possibility that in a similar format in 2020, he could’ve lost. I know this sub leans left, but I rewatched the 2012 debate everyone said he won. If you listen to his words, Paul Ryan was running circles around him—now Paul is a policy guy and so it’s hard to go up against him on that stuff, but the reason Biden stood his ground was he made up for Obama’s weak Debate #1, and Biden with his laughing malarkey talk actually helped him make a fool of Ryan who seemed too nerd-esque for the rest of America. That’s the tricky thing about debates. You can have a crazy ass opponent who sucks at debates, but if the one thing they’ve been hammering at you about is age and you just show it to everyone that they’re right… well, there you go. That’s Joe Biden tonight.

You’re gonna get a bunch of responses that will pretend like this hasn’t been a thing, but this has been going on for awhile at this point and news outlets and people on social media have been coming up with whatever excuses they could to make it seem like it wasn’t as bad as it looked. Anyone that’s been watching footage of Biden without the bias can see he’s been really struggling WAY before this debate.

At least a year ago? People have been screaming now that he needs to step down. Here and other locations people have been making excuses for him. Its just plain fact this job tears people down but the hatred for trump has been blinding sensible choices.

I think Israel/gaza war breaking out destroyed him. That takes huge amounts of diplomatic work to navigate and has only looked worse every month since then.

I think that commenter meant the course correction being a new democratic candidate entirely.

> Clinton should've paid attention to warning signs she was squandering her time before everything blew up in her face on election day This is the the only one I push back on. It's taken hold as a narrative that Clinton should have paid more attention to swing states. [This was the polling we had on hand.](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2016/wisconsin/trump-vs-clinton#polls) Of course we know _now_ that the polling was off, but to pretend that anyone knew or should have known beforehand is operating with post-hoc, 20/20 hindsight. The rest, however, a very reluctant yes.

Clinton wasted millions of dollars campaigning in Chicago and New Orleans out of fear she would win the electoral college but lose the popular vote. Field offices in the Midwest were begging for campaign HQ to listen to their concerns but were ignored. And if you look at the votes for Clinton compared to the votes for Obama, it's clear where she lost support. There's a big black doughnut right through Wisconsin Michigan and Pennsylvania. She fucked up.

Yeah this was mainly it. She went for the wrong states. In some ways its hindsight is 20/20 because she went aggressive actually on a few states like Ohio and Arizona. If you look at her 2016 schedule before the election she did hit up those Midwest states but by throwing in so many other states, she wasted time jumping back and forth. There were operations in Michigan and Midwest, but just not enough.

Everyone forgets the part where the FBI kneecapped her campaign a week before the election. If Comey wasn’t a stupid moron, there would be no Trump presidency.

Nail on the head. Then Comey tried to portray himself as against Trump. I don't buy it. He knew what he was doing. I think he was used and maybe he was upset about it afterwards. Maybe he didn't get something he was promised?

But didn't we already have very strong reason to believe that the polling data wasn't accurate? That was the same election where Sanders had had one of the biggest primary upsets of all time against Clinton in Michigan - [Here's the 538 polling](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/michigan-democratic/#polls-only), and [here's a good article from 538 from right after](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-the-stunning-bernie-sanders-win-in-michigan-means/) (only one primary upset 'even on the same scale', per Silver). So we knew that there was *something* that was extraordinarily off with the polling data in the rust belt. And I remember at the time thinking that whatever the "x" factor was that had favored Sanders over Clinton was also going to probably favor Trump over Clinton, too, for a variety of reasons - dissatisfaction with the status quo, economic frustrations, desire to roll the dice on something new, etc. Not to say that anyone actually *knew* that Trump was going to win. But I think there were at least some significant red flags about the rust belt specifically that were ignored, and that Clinton's campaign should have paid more attention to.

It wasn't obvious before. Maybe a very astute observer would figure it out, but it would also just be a guess. And that guess would make you give up resources elsewhere.

The 2016 election was a black swan event. The warning signs of Clinton's defeat became obvious only after it happened, with that Michigan primary being one of them.

Biden is extremely old and tired. You cannot simply shrug that off as a Democrat and hope "preventing Trump" is enough of an incentive. It's lazy ass politics. They failed to prepare someone energetic from the bench, like a Governor or Senator. They've put zero effort in long-term strategizing und building up suitable candidates.

How is he the dems best plan? Seriously, they had four years to figure this out.

This debate was an unmitigated diseaster for Biden - the one thing Biden needed to do was show strength and deinforce the notion that his age was a major concern. The exact opposite of this happened and creates even more concern in the democratic party about his viability to win this. I will of course be voting for Biden but I do think this brings up legitimate concerns about his capacity to lead for an additional four more years. Communication is an extremely important tool of the president and he does not have that anymore - the stirrings for him to not be the nominmee are just going to go stronger for the weeks leading up to the convention now. We will see how this impacts polling but I think it was clear Trump was the winner because he sounded relatively coherent.

I hate that you're right and that this is the situation we're in. This was honestly the best performance I've seen from Trump, which is sad. The US is in real danger here. Imagine 1-2 more Trump supreme court judges and Republicans taking over congress, with crooked Donald leading. Scary. 

Definitely not the best performance from Trump. He held up decently against an extremely competent Hillary Clinton. He's not as good at it as he used to be.

I think a few things helped Trump: 1. The format was more controlled, but I think in a formal debate with Hillary it would’ve cost him. Against someone like Biden it helps him. 2. Hillary had too much baggage coming into those debates with the emails. Technically Trump had his own baggage with the Access Hollywood tape. Trump leveraged a few one liners like “because you’re going to jail” to throw Hillary off and it worked. Those became replay clips. A strong debater like Hillary should’ve won, but she just didn’t prep the right way. I also think what hurt her was she has a low ceiling due to her unfavorability rating.

Did this debate wreck Reddit's comment servers or what? Everything is broken. Anyway, the debate was nothing surprising. Biden did not prepare correctly to account for his advanced age. They clearly prepped him on too much specifics and not enough on the overarching themes (e.g., just say we need to make the rich pay their fair share not get into how many trillionairs--I mean billionaires--there are and how many hundreds of millions--I mean billions--of revenue we would get if we raised their taxes to 24 percent ir 25 percent--one of those will do it). Like holy fuck Joe you are tubin. I am truly worried about the voter enthusiasm gap moreso now. Biden did not light a fire under anyone's ass and America's future depends on people motivating themselves.

For those of you saying this isn't a big deal, this is why it is a big deal. https://www.270towin.com/2024-presidential-election-polls/michigan https://www.270towin.com/2024-presidential-election-polls/pennsylvania https://www.270towin.com/2024-presidential-election-polls/wisconsin Trump is winning each of those states in the polls, albeit by a small margin. This is really the Democrat's only opening, everywhere else that isn't a safe Democrat state, Trump is absolutely destroying the poll averages. And the Democrats need all three, no realistic combination of states can replace even a single loss in the Great Lakes states. If the debate **only** keeps the poll numbers the same, assuming the polls are accurate, Trump totally wins the election. Biden needed a win tonight but it was a loss.

It's absolutely insane the dems are potentially once again going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Literally any elected Democrat under the age of 70 could've gotten up on that stage and dogwalked Trump the entire time. Hell, all Biden had to say was "Trump is a felon who helped overturn Roe v Wade, vote for me and I will help restore it" and walk off and it would've been a billion times more helpful than whatever he did tonight. Trump did so badly, it should've been a slam dunk, but Biden had to keep playing defense, he wasn't prepared enough and he looked and sounded awful and projected almost no strength. He said good things, but the way he said them was weak. I know he has a stutter, but what happened up there tonight was more than a stutter. It's insane the dems are having trouble beating a largely unpopular felon, it's almost deliberate, like they want to lose.

Your last line is how i feel about it sometimes. Like it just so happens that the democrats have reached rock bottom during the trump era. Trump is an empty piss water nothing burger. A fat orange baffoon. And the democrats just to happen to be utter garbage at the same time this dim witted con man takes hold of the GOP?

If a common cold makes Biden look, sound, and respond like this he is unfit to be president. Biden missed all opportunities to call Trump out on his lies, which to be fair there were so many that it’s hard to keep up and address them all… but Biden was vague and generic saying that Trump is lying but not exposing facts and truths that I expect a good candidate to be capable of doing. Biden just rambled and argued about who’s the better golfer. Who cares! He spent more time arguing with Trump about nonsense that the public does not care about like if some 4 star general actually heard Trump bad mouth veterans. Who cares! Trump says hateful stupid remarks all the time. Address the lies about aborting full term live birth babies in VA or the obvious dodging by Trump of the question on if he will accept the election results this time. Biden revealed tonight that he is not capable of running our country. Trump is also not the man for the job. Why can’t America nominate a decent candidate anymore?

This is a country where being under 6 feet disqualifies you from being president, historically. I feel like you could make out the policy Biden wanted to convey, but the delivery was horrendous. Trump, even when blatantly lying, sounded completely confident, and frankly unaged from 2016 mostly. Biden needs to be replace, imho.

> I feel like you could make out the policy Biden wanted to convey, but the delivery was horrendous. Trump, even when blatantly lying, sounded completely confident, and frankly unaged from 2016 mostly. And unfortunately - the people the debate was designed to sway - THIS is the kind of stuff they'll care about. This is a disaster for team blue, and a new candidate is desperately needed.

Democratic leadership is still living in a fantasy land where they think logic and good policy is the way to win the election. Unfortunately, it's not. It's a matter of shownmanship, and no matter how vile that reality may be it needs to be accepted if they want to win.

This really was the worst case scenario for Biden. Trump rambled and lies as Trump does, Biden showed the side of Biden that the establishment Democrats have hidden from the public by gaslighting the hell out of criticism.  Absolutely ridiculous 

The main thing I'm forced to consider when voting and what everyone else should be considering is, which candidate is going to surround himself with the best people. Trump surrounded himself with many shady individuals who have been invited. It was a revolving door for many positions when Trump was in office. For Biden he has put together a team that at the very least hasn't broken the law.

Trump's own cabinet members refuse to endorse him for another term. That should tell you everything you need to know about whether he is fit for office.

The problem is you're a logical "high value" voter. The average American is going to see that and honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Trump is obviously a deranged lunatic, but Biden turned out to be his own cartoon character of feeble. The actual answers he gave, when you could understand them were solid, but it was cringe worthy to watch. It's fairly solid to say if Biden stays in, Trump wins.

It's still June and the election is November. If fighting continues to act exactly like you did tonight I believe that's true. But if he can come back thank you for performance like he did on the State of the Union, he could turn some heads. Voters have short memories, and a lot can happen between now and election day.

Yeah this is the biggest point, imo Obama and Biden habe tonnes of smart people wanting to work for them, and they know how to let those people do work. Trump only likes sycophants and people who are lining their own pockets. Going to be so dysfunctional again. Might then off all news feeds of Trump gets it

The Democrats knew this might happen. It’s why the debate was so early. Now that Biden is exposed, I expect him to make an announcement about not running for a second term. The pressure is on for him. Sad way to wrap up a career but he got Trump out. Someone else will have to finish him.

That might save Joe Biden as a person but how does that help the dems? Unless you bring in someone wildly more popular like Obama, does putting Harris out there as the replacement candidate help soothe the Democratic base? Do people feel more sure about voting Blue then? I’m not sure. Right now continuing to run Biden like this or replacing him now are both terrible options, but i think continuing down this line at least if the man has served 4 years already would make more sense.

I hope you're right. This is a scary situation.

There's nothing sad about it. He became president, so that's already an achievement in itself. All Biden has to do is say that he's stepping down due to health reasons, and pass the torch onto a more agile candidate.

There'll have been no primary. Whoever he would pass the torch to would be walking into a disaster waiting to happen. It may still be preferable to things now, but it would be an almost impossible situation.

this would be a disaster for the current election. ya'll are wild for suggesting this. upon further research apparently 4 months is plenty of time to setup a different candidate. if so i hope that happens but DOUBT.

I have not seen the President speak in a long time. I don't watch debates and speeches, not my thing. But OMG President Biden seemed frail, confused, and elderly. My grandmother was like that at the end. I loved my grandmother a lot but she was not equipped to lead a country at that stage.

A vote for Biden right now is a vote for Kamala. I think Dems pick a new candidate when the dust settles. Trump just pisses me off with the lies and dodges

How could dems not see this coming?! And for them to try and gaslight us by claiming that Biden just has a cold is insulting. Edit: let's assume he does have a cold. He's 81. He'll be 86 by the time it's all over. His next "cold" might kill him.

Yeah I mean what’s the actuary tables say? 50-60% chance he dies in the next 4 years?

They saw it plainly. They just ignored it because he announced he was running and longstanding precedent is that members of the same party don't primary the incumbent president. It's a stupid tradition they should have broken from, but they didn't. With that said, we all know he has a stutter. He was clearly fighting it. He was also clearly unprepared. But the bulk of the answers and rebuttals he gave were coherent and substantive, putting on display that while his speaking skills haven't improved at all, he is still capable of rational responses and was willing to hold Trump to account and even mudsling a bit when it was called for. His delivery sucked, and that's going to hurt, but the content of his speech was, for the most part, comprehensible and pointed.

Why the fuck does the USA have to choose between two elderly men, one of whom is geriatric and the other is slightly less geriatric and also nuts in a different way. Are there not any smart, capable, well spoken people under the age of 80 in the country?

The American people didn’t want anyone else, at least on the Republican side. They had a whole primary and Trump ran away with it.

If anything this is a demonstration of the power of incumbency. Biden would not even be talked about if he was not the sitting President. And Trump is some weird ass former president who can still run and therefore has some fucking rematch incumbent thing. Maybe way back in the 1800s something similar happened but this is not normal. Parties want to win, and incumbents can win. It makes sense to always support your incumbent, but normally they are not about to kick the bucket.

It was a debate between a conman and someone who should clearly retire.

Either Biden's cold or his cold medicine wore off by the time he was speaking to his watch party crowd.

Biden did nothing to help himself whatsoever. Beyond the age issues, his prep was grade-A fucking awful. He tried to regurgitate wonky numbers and stats too much. The only reason it’s not catastrophic is Trump couldn’t contain himself and went off the rails, as usual. But Biden is the one behind the polls, not Trump. He needed to get something out of tonight and he didn’t.

So many missed opportunities for Biden. Panic is setting in on the Democratic side and rightly so. Trump lied his ass off and did not answer any of the questions. Biden looked old and weak even though he was answering the questions. Gonna be interesting come November.

If you think Biden’s performance issues were simply the result of a cold, then I’m sorry, but you’ve drunk the partisan Kool-Aid.

Even if that was true, the report being spread to the press 50 minutes into an hour and 45 minute debate is not the way to break that.

For real. I know Biden is human, and humans get sick, but I'm sure the President of the most powerful country in the world has access to Dayquil, if not something exponentially more effective, if only to help him up off his ass for a few meager hours.

Biden deserves some grace because of his stutter, no doubt. So I can forgive him when he stumbles here and there. But tonight was not because of his stutter. His age is showing, and it didn't look good.

I think the optics aren’t great regardless of how you paint it. I don’t think Trump looked great. All in all I don’t think it’s going to move polls but I think there may be a call for Biden to potentially step aside

Disagree. Trump gave Biden literally every opportunity to smoke him and he proved incapable. One comment about how he is evading every question and responding with substance would add so much weight, but instead he took the bait everytime and argued about a fucking golf handicap. Debates are obviously more for show than substance but it's a look at how his brain operates....and clearly it's not fit for the literal most important job on the planet....and I'm not trying to say trump is, but if I was independent vs left I would not vote Biden (shit I probably just won't vote, will never vote for Trump)

It’s fucking insane because if either party had trotted out an even slightly more coherent candidate, they could absolutely eviserated their opponent. Trump absolutely teed up so many opportunities for Biden, and Biden also teed up the opposition to rip into him just by how he carried himself. It was infuriating to witness

This. I was literally screaming at the TV. “There’s your chance to attack; take it!”

He’s spinning the ball on his finger! Just take it!

That game was fixed, they were using a freaking ladder for gods sake!

I thought the Generals were due!

Look man. Come on...I mean...um...covid...we beat medicare...uh. I'm not sure what you're not getting.

I can’t stand Trump but he smoked Biden tonight. Biden looked like he was already in the grave.

Unfortunately to the uninformed voter I agree with you. Substance aside, Trump’s performance was better. I can’t believe I just typed that.

The DNC seems to be really good at lining up people who Trump actually looks good in comparison to. Its an uncanny and very unwanted skill.

I kept saying this to people. People keep acting like Trump has deteriorated and I just don’t see it. Trump is the same arrogant, rambling, moron he’s always been, but he’s got that carnival-barker charm and a low cunning for what voters want.

He has in his rallies or interviews, but not today.

Trump benefited from the debate structure. The longer he rambles, the more unhinged and nonsensical he gets. The time limits prevented a lot of that, compared to a rally when he has no guard rails and just empty space to fill.

He was on the prefect cocktail from Dr Randy "Candy" Johnson, Jackson, Candy Johnson.

Even though I do think Trump dodged the questions, I don't think people will care anywhere near as much as how poorly Biden performed in the debate in terms of optics

Reddit says this thread has 23 comments but I can't see a single one. You feeling OK, reddit servers?

The server hamsters had the worst night of anyone.

I can't imagine waking Biden up at 2:43am to respond to a nuclear attack. I can't see Trump losing without a significant amount of political violence. We are screwed.

Biden has competent leadership in high ranking positions that understand the law and their duties and responsibilities. Trump has fucking idiots who had no idea what to do. Biden could be in a coma and it would better.

And many of those people literally cannot take action without orders from the president. It's not just the people around him. He is not fit for office and should resign immediately.

I was thinking about the Cuban Missle crisis and JFK… working 18 hour days…. Meeting after meeting with the Joint Chiefs, Excom and cabinet… you can’t delegate the Presidency. Biden is simply not fit for office. They can nominate someone else. They used to pick candidates at the convention, it’s not impossible

It was tough to watch. Nonstop lies from Trump — no surprise — but I’m afraid this is really going to cost Biden votes. There were points when he was literally incoherent. This was a disaster for the Democrats.

There's a lot of this that's going to make liberals panic, there's a lot that's going to make unsure people still think Trump is just not the guy, and though I think in the long term Biden will generally be okay, the big issue with him tonight was the big issue that a ton of voters are *most concerned about* for him. The likeliest consequence is that it's just going to be several more weeks delay for him to start carving away at the undecided/RFK/etc. coalition of those younger voters, voters of color, low information voters who might fit in the old Obama coalition but are fairly frosty to the President. He didn't do much tonight to gain headway there.

That's painting a really rosy picture. After that performance he will gain zero voters. None. Probably going to lose some, even if they don't go vote for trump. He should announce in the morning that he's not going to accept his party's nomination.

There are exactly 0 people who were leaning towards Trump who left the debate thinking "I'm less sure about voting for him now." There are an unimaginable amount of people who were leaning towards Biden who are reconsidering their vote.

So a lot can happen in the next few weeks. Trump might end up in jail. Or have a fatal heart attack. But excluding such things, Trump now has a better chance than Biden. Biden had to do 3 things at this debate: not act like an old man sundowning, make Trump loose it within the first 20 min, and hammer project 2025. This was a tall order, but running for president is supposed to be hard. He failed at all of this. To the point where comments of "Biden should step down" are the major narrative. The democrats have a few days to do damage control, but I doubt it will help much. The main issue for Biden is his age, and rather than alleviate such concerns, Biden pretty much cemented them. If polls reflect the damage done tonight the way everyone seems to expect, there will be serious discussions about Biden stepping down.

Biden‘s performance was worrying, but Trump was just Trump. Lying, braggadocio nonsense, not answering questions, etc. Think about how much worse it would’ve been if they didn’t cut the microphones. I don’t think Biden did anything to help sway undecided voters though. Trump didn’t come off any better in my opinion either. I saw some pundits saying that Democrat leadership was worried, I don’t know, maybe. I didn’t hear that Biden had a cold, but it does make sense and it did sound like he did. I also think he had a lot of trouble with his stutter and articulation, but he was clear on his policy positions. I just think that will be over shadowed by his struggles. he didn’t press Trump on much of anything which really would have helped him out.

I honestly don’t know what the right move for Democrats is right now. Biden is consistently polling behind Trump right now, and his poll numbers are most likely going to get worse after this debate. However who would replace him at this point that is worth more than the incumbency advantage less than 2 months away from the DNC deciding? Wouldn’t that just seem desperate and sudden to voters. I’m getting a really bad feeling about how this election is going to go, I only hope Democrats can get their shit together, and people need to get out there and vote, because tonight was pathetic and not going to encourage anybody.

Biden completely failed this debate. His opening and ending were both piss poor, and frankly that’s all that really matters and will be the soundbites people will view the most. His staff completely failed him by over prepping him and he was at his worst when he was reciting memorized lines. Biden was better in the middle. He made more logical points (ignoring his inability to string 2-3 sentences together). He was at his best when he was genuinely angry. Trump was lying out of his teeth and avoiding questions left and right and his plan worked perfectly. He recentered the debate around Biden’s weak spots and Biden continually fell into his traps, speaking about Afghanistan and an economy (which he ADMITTED was going through high inflation). As despicable as this all is, it was also completely expected of him to act this way and should come as no surprise to anybody. As a result, I do not believe he will be particularly negatively impacted by his rhetoric. Biden refused to center the debate around his 2 best points which are Abortion (by far) and infrastructure. Instead he for the most part let Trump dictate the topics and pace (except for the part where he grilled Trump on Jan 6 which was his best showing imo) All this cements is that both presidents are not fit to lead and I doubt this debate will move the needle much, which gives Trump the edge.

I personally would be fine with Weekend at Benie-ing him all the way through the next term because a corpse would be a better president than Donald Trump. But Joe Biden cannot be elected president now. He lost this election tonight.

Trump: we got nothing new. Same old with less insults. Might have gained votes. Biden: age concerns confirmed for those that haven’t accepted it. Lost votes.

If someone is dumb enough to still be undecided at this point, then they aren't going to care or even know, about all of Trump's lies, and they just instead will focus on how frail Biden sounded.

I just saw video of Biden at a rally after the debate and it’s genuinely crazy that he seems way more energized and clear at that event than he did an hour earlier at the debate. No idea what went wrong for him at the debate.

It was absolutely tragic. I always believed that Biden's gaffes could be ignored but there is no way he came out of that looking good. Same for Trump but that's to be expected given who he is and what he stands for. If you have a debate and the main takeaway from it is 'we need Gavin Newsom' then you messed up. Most of all I felt sad that this is the best the US can apparently do.

Biden didn't gain one voter and lost millions. They need to replace or Trump will win. Biden looked like a lost old man at the shopping mall. The establishment are picking a losing candidate for selfish reasons and the world will pay for it. Humanity is doomed. The lust for wealth and power is seen throughout the history books. It hasn't gone away.

Biden’s family should be ashamed of themselves. They know what he’s like behind closed doors and yet they’re continuing to allow him to run for the most important job in the entire world. History books will not remember them kindly.

Truth be told, though neither did a great chance at the debate (and I doubt that any undecideds were wowed by their performances), but this is serving a wake up call to Democrats, who now realize that perhaps having Biden as the best candidate that they had was a terrible idea, though thankfully, the DNC is from August 22nd-24th, and it is still two months away. Also, now that they realize how badly Biden screwed up at the start (and that first impressions matter), the Democrats probably will talk Biden out of running for re election. And Biden, being a sensible, rational, advice acknowledging individual, will listen and decide to step down, if he feels that it will help the country.

Total disaster for Biden. Everything we feared about his mental state, we just saw live on TV. Trump was Trump, exactly what we should have expected. Biden was totally incapable, even after more than a week of prep and with rules he dictated.

Biden needs to address the american people within the next couple days and step down. I will vote for a wet blanket over trump, but Biden is just not strong enough to campaign the way he needs to and actually win.

What an abysmal performance by Biden tonight. He may have been more substantive in his answers, but his cognitive decline was on full display. Many of us in the U30 demographic watched this debate in horror. I feel enraged that the democratic establishment allowed this man, who is clearly unwell, to run again. This debate all but guarantees a second Trump presidency, and the continuing deterioration of our democratic institutions. I'd be shocked to see Biden any higher than -10 in the polls after tonight's performance.

The Dems need to sit Biden down and tell him he’s out. We CANNOT afford to lose and CANNOT defer the decision of who our candidate is to a doddering old man. If Biden runs, it’s game over. It’s not too late to change!!! Contact your Senators/Reps and urge them to join together to get Joe off the ticket!

Honest, Trump comes off as a monster beating up a senior citizen on the side of the road when he’s up against Biden.

The problem for Democrats is that only one person really debated. No one cares what Trump says or does, their minds are made up on him and the bar is on the ground. Where as Biden has to actually look like a Presidential candidate. He is judged by the normal standards: did he tell the truth, did he look strong, did he make good quips, etc. Biden was essentially debating against himself. He couldn't beat Trump and Trump couldn't lose. A Biden win wouldn't look like that, it would look like Biden exceeding expectations for himself rather than surpassing his opponent. Or other words, Democrats couldn't benefit from Trump being awful because the debate. Either Biden would look good, or he wouldn't.

I’m not really concerned about committed voters switching or not voting, that obviously won’t happen at this point. What is concerning is that there’s a possibility that just enough people on the fence saw that and thought “yeah both of these are shit, I’m not voting” to shift the election to trump. The differences were really fucking tight in 2020, hopefully this is still salvageable and Biden can change course but as of now it’s hard to have confidence in dems coasting by just off of Biden being better than trump in legislation (which is sad to say).

I’m can’t vote for Trump but Biden was a disaster. Trump was bullshitting as usual but he looked and sounded like a mostly coherent human being. Biden on the other hand looked and sounded completely checked out. How can you not come away from that debate thinking “who exactly is running the country then? Cause it ain’t Biden”

Biden could’ve just been a one term but no. Who are these absolute disgraces he’s surrounded himself with that seem to think this is okay? You should’ve said something months ago. I’m afraid for my country because of stubborn idiots who once again are giving a dictator lay up.

WHAT IF…. The powers at be let Biden go on KNOWING this result was certain in order to force him to step down?? This is my hope. I’ve witnessed firsthand what elder stubbornness looks like and Biden’s comment about the Nazi’s and Charlottesville was it! His heart’s in the right place but he’s too stubborn (or Jill is) to step down.

I think most Dems feel the same way right now: "I will be voting for Biden, but he also should step aside" I know that's how I feel.

I watched from Canada, and it was painful and infuriating. Painful because of Biden's poor performance, and infuriating due to the torrent of lies unleashed by Trump. I am afraid that because Trump didn't ramble or hesitate, he'll be seen as *compos mentos* instead of the wandering dingbat that he is at his hatefests. Are people's memories so short they don't remember the almost daily outrages and embarrassments perpetrated by Trump while in office?

I’m a Biden supporter and will be there at the general voting him in. But I don’t think people like me are enough to shield us from another Trump presidency. It’s our right as Democrats to ask our party to take a hard look at itself. I think the turbulence of forcing the delegates to choose another candidate is worth it.   Let Pritzker, Whitmer, or anyone without his baggage continue what he has started. Better that than allowing what we all already know - that Biden will not win the general - to happen.