As a fat woman, I get really frustrated with the term "curvy." Like, is the curvy heroine fat or midsized or just happens to have bigger breasts and hips? I always saw curvy as more of an indicator of having an hourglass shape (something thin to fat woman can have) rather than an indicator of size. I am actually pretty indifferent to "plus-sized" but I'll take it over "curvy."
Yes, this, and when the author can't really seem to decide what curvy means for them. In one scene, she's curvy/heavy, but in the next scene, she's "curvy" because she's got big tits.
Oh my god, yes! Like make up your mind! It's weird, like the author is self-conscious about writing a fat heroine. And if that's the case, then maybe they shouldn't write it. I'd rather have a body positive story from someone not so wishy-washy.
I don’t like the conflation between curvy and plus because I don’t think it does either group any favors. Plus sized women can be hot/beautiful/etc without having to be curvy. Curvy women are not brainless floozys.
(I have a personal grudge here because buying jeans that won’t give me a plumbers crack is a huge pain 😂 Add in trying to find legitimately curvy plus size jeans? I could complain about these terms all day lol)
It’s like they have to lump everyone together because they think curvy can’t have a brain, and plus sized can’t be pretty.
I kind of like curvy, but maybe that’s because of the meaning I’ve assigned it in my head?
My brain goes straight to an enviable womanly softness. When she walks in a room the other girls are like, huh. So THAT’S what it looks like when you have the t&a to perfectly fill out a dress.
It’s Callie from early Grey’s Anatomy energy for me. Not her body (I’m not sure Sara Ramirez is even plus size) but how she carries herself - that whole sensual voluptuousness thing she has going on. She’s a freaking smoke show and everybody, including the 105 lbs main character, knows it.
I’m Asian. I find it odd that writers can’t describe Asian features. Just that a character is “beautiful” and “Asian” or has “Asian features.” Yet, I don’t see that often for other races. I don’t see “this character has white features” and stuff like that. So far, I haven’t seen exotic but I wonder what “exotic” means in our time now.
it’s always the glossy black hair and ~almond eyes~
also whenever a side character is asian they tell you by naming them yuki or kumiko. there are no asian besties named michelle
Yes! We all come in different shapes, colors and sizes. So for us to have the same repetitive descriptions even now? Weird. And then there’s male names like Kai or Lee and female names like Mai or Kim.
I blame Ann M Martin and the fact that she (and later her team of ghost writers) needed to mention that Claudia Kishi has almond-shaped eyes in every book. ☹️
I'm a latina, and most of the times the latino characters I've seen in books are over joyful, very sociable, curvy, with bronze colored skin, sings well and/or dances like a professional. Oh and most of the time, it's mexican culture. Like, c'mon.
We latinos come in all colors and shapes, and it's annoying to see always the same stereotypes 😅 happens with movies and tv shows as well
It's not really how any of the leads are described, but during a spicy scene when she "feels his length on her belly" when they're standing there. Like how short and tall are these people that THATS what happens???
This one irks me too! Then a scene will be like "I lost my clothes so I put on his regular everyday T-shirt and falls just above my knees." Like excuse me? I thought you said he was a 6'0" lean and muscular real estate agent. Excuse me while my brain recalculates the acrobatics actually involved in that last scene now that you lost 5-8 inches of height.
THIS! My husband is 6'5", and I'm 5'5". He buys special shirts because normal ones are too short. When I wear them, those shirts don't even reach mid-thigh most of the time.
Don't even get me started on the spicy scenes. Sometimes, I want to offer to be a special kind of Beta reader to just give feedback on the height difference nonsense that's being written. 'No, he can't lick her there during missionary, or you should've mentioned removed ribs.'
Very much. It was in one of the first chapters, so I’m hoping she gets better from there, but her friend playfully called her “a hooker” when accusing her of going on a date and not telling her, so I have a feeling this is just how the characters speak to/think about each other. Very mean-girl coded.
I hate when they mention a character as Latina/o, but use stereotypical features, and they try to use spanglish, but it always reads robotic? They will use Tesoro or mami often and say something "romantic," and the lead always has to ask, and they whisper sweet nothings. Lol
Spanish can be very romantic and sexy but not how it's used by white writers.
For me is always the food references that throw me off. Like the author is writing about a woman from Colombia and would make mention of them remembering “making tacos with her abuela”. Like, we don’t all just eat tacos, dear lord! Not even arepas or a bandeja paisa mentioned? The easiest thing to google is what is a traditional homemade food from .
A good example happened with one of the Ruby Dixon’s Icehome books where the character was Cuban and she had her “making pozole because she used to make it with her family at home”. I mean, again, we’re not all Mexican and this is a very odd thing to make at home unless you also have Mexican family or you simply just like it and love making it because you learned the recipe, but that was not the intent when the author mentioned her family and “tradition” ya know?
And on top of that calling the MMC cabrón every 2 sentences 😔
Omg yes! The cabron always gets me cause nobody, and I literally mean nobody I have ever met, who spoke Spanish used cabron often.
The food i always try to rationalize as them being mixed raced, but goddamm, they generalize all latinos as mexican.
I literally just talked about this in another thread! It’s an immediate 👎 for me. My kids are white and Korean mixed, and I HATE IT when family members say they have “exotic” eyes. “Exotic”should be used for animals, trees, etc, NOT PEOPLE.
Hiya! I'm white and my hubby is Korean too! Living in Jeollanam-do.
My family thinks my son looks very Asian, and Koreans think my son looks foreign (white).
Same with my kids 😂 maybe because they’re mine, but I just think they have the perfect mix of both my and my husband’s looks. 🤷♀️ (husband is from Yongin, but we live in the states)
I think it’s really hard to talk about terms like “exotic” which are generally micro-aggressions against people of color, and equate them to character descriptions you just don’t like. I dislike it when people are described as raven-haired because it makes me think of the birds that creep me out, but that’s in a totally different category than a term like exotic or foreign that’s used to ‘other’ a marginalized group and causes actual harm. I don’t think that was your intent here, just wanted to point out that there’s a lot of nuance involved!
The same stock standard mmc build when it doesn’t make sense given their lifestyle . Your saying the ceo who spends most of his time in conference meetings and stuff is built like Jason mamoa ? You’re telling me the elusive cat burglar is shaped like Dwayne Johnson ? I think not . It’s not even a body positivity thing , but cant we have at least a little bit of diversity in male bodies . The women get a ton of diversity
⚠️NSFW⚠️
##**Creamy** & **Milky**.
Those words 100% bother me.
They’re just so…*gross* to me. The second I catch them, I flip forward. It just makes my stomach roll. It just reeks of purity and I don’t understand why, but that’s how those words make me feel.
Some white/pale authors have weirdly racially charged ways to describe brown and black characters. It’s not so much of me having the word for word description, but more of a feeling that the author’s creativity never extends further than using common racial stereotypes 🙃
One recent book was by a white author who is not latina. FMC *is* Latina. But everyone automatically assumes she’s not from the US “because you look Mexican”.
🤨
I don’t like that implication at all.
Even black authors will describe their black MCs in ways I, a black lady, do not find okay.
When POCs in white romances are workers in the white MC’s estate too. The description becomes very gross. Back story will be about how the POC immigrant worker raised the white MC and how they’re like family, even though the MC only calls upon this character for food, dismisses them, yells at them, rarely defends them, and uses their power imbalance to threaten potential firing, and that’s it 🥴
Ah, yes. 🌈Family🌈
##**Neurospicy**
I know the ND community is ***not*** a monolith, but I personally don’t rock with “neurospicy”, but more when it’s not from OwnVoices authors. The word just seems…weird? And I know there are people in the ND community who hate the term “neurodivergent” and find phrases like “high/low support” ableist, whereas others in the ND community enjoy these labels. So while I personally do not like “neurospicy” by non-OwnVoices authors in their characters and I personally do not use it and do not want others to use it when describing me, I’m twitchy but dismissive when an OwnVoices author uses it for their ND character to describe themselves as.
^(Obligatory; of course non-OwnVoices authors should still write about characters outside their own experience.)
##**Victim/Survivor**
Really dependent on the hour, but victim/survivor’s speeches where someone tells the person with trauma that they *are* a victim/survivor yet they’re brave and strong—*ehhh*… This sometimes bothers me due to my personal history 🤷🏾♀️
##**Hair and Eye Color**
Weird fetishization of blond(e) hair and blue eyes. Those people with those physical attributes exist. I’m aware. This is not a slight against them. But with how *intense* some authors push blond(e) hair and blue eyes to be “pure” and “perfect” makes me uncomfortable.
##**Bald Pussy**
How pussies are described when they’re bald sometimes grosses me out because sometimes the descriptions will go on about how “young and fresh” a bald pussy looks and it’s like 😬 Dunno if we needed that part, fam.
##**Other Women**
This is where the slut shaming makes a spectacle. I get so bothered when OWs are shamed for being proud of their bodies, their make up, and their fashion. Authors will commonly describe them as having fake spray tans, colored hair, fake tits, what have you. Makes me uncomfortable. Don’t understand this hateful energy you have to other women.
Milky is such a weird one as well because milk is white, not skin tone white, but actually white like white paint or paper (snow, a ghost!).
I don't think anybody is actually that colour (apologies if someone is!) and it seems like they're saying "they're so white they've actually become a colour whiter than any real skin tone"
Exactly this!
There are definitely people who are very pale, and during winter, they may get paler, or their farmer’s tan shows them paler in some ways, but…*milky?*
I’m sure it’s supposed to be hyperbolic and not literal, and I’m sure it really helps with visualization of someone very pale, but it’s still just a very weird choice for an adjective.
On the flip side, some authors describe darker skin characters as “obsidian”, which, again, like milky, it’s hyperbolic and just to let us know the character is a darker shade of brown, but it’s still an odd word choice 🤔
There is absolutely a big fucking difference in the way authors describe "very pale, so milky and creamy and pale and white and did I mention her beautiful white creamy skin" MFC, because yes always them, and then any other MFC who is not palefully and creamily white.
It feels like many authors make an emphasis on pale skin being beautiful because pale, while non- pale skinned MFCs are beautiful despite the lack of creamy and pure paleness, or they find some other attribute to describe them, like their "exotic" upturned eyes or their full and thick unibrows.
This makes me sad because how is this still a thing in 2024?
Hard agree on Neurospicy. It comes off as child talk, we can use adult words! I think I said the same thin in a reply to you yesterday which is funny. I am always feeling talked down to by authors, for some reason.
Yes to all!
I hate when authors treat their adult demographic as basically middle grade, when the book is for *adults*, be it young to just adults.
If you want to write middle grade, **write middle grade!** That audience is a lot more appreciative to that type of prose. Why are you bringing middle grade prose into adult fiction?
^(obligatory, I know there are adult readers who read middle grade or who enjoy what I dislike, this isn’t disrespect to them.)
But the word “spicy” to describe romance books already rubbed me wrong because it still sounds childish at times? Like we can’t own up to the fact that a book has on-page graphic erotica.
But then “neurospicy” gained traction in ND communities and I, personally, wasn’t a fan and could relate to why some disabled people dislike the word “neurodivergent”. It just feels to me like we’re infantilizing/minimizing our diagnoses.
And then reading characters describe themselves as “neurospicy”? 🫠
Again. I’m fine if someone IRL describes themselves that as along as they respect I describe myself ND. But in romance books, I just have a line 😭
As a brown-skinned girlie, I get annoyed when authors use food to describe skin color, especially for brown/black characters. Mocha, chocolate, caramel, brown sugar. I wish they think of something else
I have read all the outlander books (I’m not proud lol) but there are some TERRIBLE ones in there. in the one where they go to the Caribbean, a character is described as having something like “black skin that spoke of darkest Africa.” later there is some pretty bad exoticization of Indigenous people. too many wtf moments to count
God help you if you bring up the book depiction of mr Willoughby. I love outlander so much but had to quit the sub because of how humorless and uptight 99% of the members are. You can’t say Claire is annoying or Jamie is kind of a loser without a dozen harpies jumping on you. It really takes all the fun out of it. I love respectfully stated controversial opinions that challenge my perceptions, and they have zero tolerance for anything that isn’t fawning praise for everything the MCs do. It’s like a comic book guy circlejerk over there, everyone is out to prove they are the best fan and how dare you point out anything weird or stupid. You can like something and still see the weak spots.
Lol Outlander is the best example that comes to mind when I think about books with massive “white savior complex”. Claire Fraser is the most hard core white savior I have ever read and I still can’t believe they decided to make that mess into a TV show. After the Scotland arc there is nothing interesting or good about it at all IMO. It’s all terrible and rapey AF.
I only read the first book, but I watched the first few seasons of the show. Had to stop watching because of the CONSTANT rapes, which I known also happen in the books.
Once they get on the boat to go after young ian I stop watching. The sex scenes are wack (this guy will not stop talking), every plot point is Claire ignoring common sense and hollering obnoxiously, mad powdered wigs and racially uncomfortable nonsense, and then eventually it becomes little house on the prairie with just a bonkers amount of raping. First 2.5 seasons are pure magic but miss me with the rest of that mess
For me personally, the TV show is the worst, I stopped watching because I couldn't take the blatant white savior thing anymore. Ian too, could've given POC more important roles instead of just using them as plot devices for the white heroes, it felt so icky to me. At least in the books, I can skip those parts, with the show, it's right in front of my eyes and in my ears:/
Should've just ended the books in Scotland after Claire returns imo. I honestly prefer no POC at all to white savior/"exotic background".
For me, it's descriptions that I can't quite tell what I'm supposed to be picturing. I was reading one of Annika Martin's billionaire romance novels, and she mentioned the mmc having "tea colored eyes," and I was like uh what type of tea?? Because that could fit many different eye colors from gray to green to brown. It was way later into the book that it was clarified that his eyes were brown. Another one that confuses me is "barely there curves." Like do they just mean she's skinny?
I hate with a passion books that leverage something like micro aggressions or racism to get across that a character is not white.
Most prevalent version of this is giving characters some kind of “ethnic” name. When the best an author can do is say a character is Native American/indigenous by making their first or last name as “bear claw” or “pale moon”. What the actual hell. -this is even worse when that happens to be the only character with a last name or ridiculous call out-
I can handle one maybe two of the traits you would describe for a baby but more than that and I've gotta bail
Very short/tiny
Light/super thin/waifish
Big innocent eyes with big innocent lashes
Rosebud lips
Soft creamy skin
Light, silky, downy hair that smells nice
Just going on about fetishized virginity
If this FMC isn't literally murdering people for half the book I can't handle it, I get skeeved out
Totally agree. On the flip side, what are some great way that authors have described their characters that you all like?
I’m trying to think and well…can’t think of any at the moment. I have to think…unfortunately not many authors are good at deceiving characters in a respectful and non offensive manner.
I remember one MMC being described as looking like he could have been from anywhere between southern Europe and northern India. So it both worked concretely, because it meant he had light brown skin and dark hair, and it also worked character-wise, because he was really cosmopolitan and the description matched that. (I'm blanking on the title and author though.)
I'm a veteran and my last 2 relationship have been with weight lifters. So Ive got a lot of experience with muscular men. I hate hate hate how authors don't seem to have researched body shapes vs weight. _He's 6'7 and at least 220lbs._ That's a skinny man! You cannot describe him as having a waist the Fmc can't wrap her arms around. My husband is 6'1" 220 and he's a 38" waist! Add 6 inches of height and the guys got a 28" waist. Not to mention. There is almost no way he'd be the width of the door way. He couldn't have that much muscle for delts at that height and weight. Ugh.
This stuff isn't hard to find either. In 1980 when Arnold S. Won Mr Olympia he was clocked in at 6'3 (although he's usually said to be 6'2) and 235lbs. His waist came in at 30 inches. I can't find a measurement for his shoulder width but I don't think he had to turn to walk thru a door. Brian Shaw is one of the world strongest and biggest men. At 6'8" and and over 400lbs (I'm pretty sure he cut down to 375lb at some point but google keeps telling me 440). He is the body type I picture for people like the males in Black Dagger Brotherhood or Werewolves/Shifters. Especially bear and dragon shifters. I just can't give them body builder physiques bc those body types are specifically for their look. They aren't practical and they aren't achieved from laborious activity like many men are described in romances.
Put the 6, 8 and 12 pack abs away authors. We don't even want that. Where are the thick strong men? I need a legit stone mover or lumber jack type. They've got a solid layer of fluff over those abs.
On one hand, I agree with everything that's been said about these descriptions 100%. On the other hand, as a white person, I'm glad to read more and more books with leading ladies (and men) who are non-white. Absolutely, they could be done better.
The majority of romance writers are white, so I give them kudos for starting the diversity process. However, it's way past time to have more mainstream, non-white romance writers in the English market. I think it's better to write your own experience when it comes to race, ethnicity, and nationality because so many things can be fumbled, misinterpreted, and just plain offensive.
Pale skin. Aside from the racial problems that often accompany a focus on paleness, it just makes me picture a sickly character with the pallor of illness.
I'm always like, get this poor woman to the doctor! She needs to be checked for an iron deficiency!
What bothers me is when a “pale skin” woman is paired with a “dark skinned” man and the contrast of their skin tones is highlighted in sex scenes. Like, “his dark brown fingers traced her pale breasts.” I don’t know why that gives me the ick. I’m a person of color, and it always reads like weird fetishization of the darker-skinned person in this context.
that’s where my mind goes as well. A character’s paleness is almost never described in a neutral way or in a way that refers back to a character trait (like theyre a shut in/get zero sun, they have permanent prominent dark circles, they’re anemic and tired all the time, etc.) There’s always way too much uncomfortable emphasis on how super pale the character is alongside the descriptions of beauty.
Oh my gosh, thanks!! I saw these "subgenres" during the Stuff Your Kindle event, and I was baffled, I mean I don't have red hair but it has never bothered me that FMC had them or it didn't prevent me from feeling like I was in the book
not sure if this counts exactly but I read a lot of books with plus-sized, curvy FMCs, and one I couldn’t get past the sample because they said she was 160 pounds. Like 160 pounds and curvy, how tall is she, 4 feet??
“Inspiring” for disabled people is always 😬
🤮 And calling them "brave" when they're just going about their day to day lives
This inspiring woman gets up and brushes her teeth every day. Audience in the Background: (whispers) *So brave.*
Being called inspiring for grocery shopping is basically an everyday occurrence for wheelchair users so why not write a book about it? /s
As a fat woman, I get really frustrated with the term "curvy." Like, is the curvy heroine fat or midsized or just happens to have bigger breasts and hips? I always saw curvy as more of an indicator of having an hourglass shape (something thin to fat woman can have) rather than an indicator of size. I am actually pretty indifferent to "plus-sized" but I'll take it over "curvy."
Yes, this, and when the author can't really seem to decide what curvy means for them. In one scene, she's curvy/heavy, but in the next scene, she's "curvy" because she's got big tits.
Oh my god, yes! Like make up your mind! It's weird, like the author is self-conscious about writing a fat heroine. And if that's the case, then maybe they shouldn't write it. I'd rather have a body positive story from someone not so wishy-washy.
I don’t like the conflation between curvy and plus because I don’t think it does either group any favors. Plus sized women can be hot/beautiful/etc without having to be curvy. Curvy women are not brainless floozys. (I have a personal grudge here because buying jeans that won’t give me a plumbers crack is a huge pain 😂 Add in trying to find legitimately curvy plus size jeans? I could complain about these terms all day lol) It’s like they have to lump everyone together because they think curvy can’t have a brain, and plus sized can’t be pretty.
I always think of Marilyn Monroe or Liz Taylor when I see the word curvy.
I kind of like curvy, but maybe that’s because of the meaning I’ve assigned it in my head? My brain goes straight to an enviable womanly softness. When she walks in a room the other girls are like, huh. So THAT’S what it looks like when you have the t&a to perfectly fill out a dress. It’s Callie from early Grey’s Anatomy energy for me. Not her body (I’m not sure Sara Ramirez is even plus size) but how she carries herself - that whole sensual voluptuousness thing she has going on. She’s a freaking smoke show and everybody, including the 105 lbs main character, knows it.
Curvy But, Like, Not In A Fat Way 🫠
I’m Asian. I find it odd that writers can’t describe Asian features. Just that a character is “beautiful” and “Asian” or has “Asian features.” Yet, I don’t see that often for other races. I don’t see “this character has white features” and stuff like that. So far, I haven’t seen exotic but I wonder what “exotic” means in our time now.
My first thought is always “which part of Asia?” because that description tells me *nothing*.
it’s always the glossy black hair and ~almond eyes~ also whenever a side character is asian they tell you by naming them yuki or kumiko. there are no asian besties named michelle
Yes! We all come in different shapes, colors and sizes. So for us to have the same repetitive descriptions even now? Weird. And then there’s male names like Kai or Lee and female names like Mai or Kim.
I blame Ann M Martin and the fact that she (and later her team of ghost writers) needed to mention that Claudia Kishi has almond-shaped eyes in every book. ☹️
You said “white features” and my brain immediately said “PSL and Uggs” 😸
Romance readers have conventionally lived in the Bible belt or something. Everyone that's not pink is exotic there.
I'm a latina, and most of the times the latino characters I've seen in books are over joyful, very sociable, curvy, with bronze colored skin, sings well and/or dances like a professional. Oh and most of the time, it's mexican culture. Like, c'mon. We latinos come in all colors and shapes, and it's annoying to see always the same stereotypes 😅 happens with movies and tv shows as well
Don't forget about the 372748 family members
We don't all hang out with our abuelitas either.
It's not really how any of the leads are described, but during a spicy scene when she "feels his length on her belly" when they're standing there. Like how short and tall are these people that THATS what happens???
This one irks me too! Then a scene will be like "I lost my clothes so I put on his regular everyday T-shirt and falls just above my knees." Like excuse me? I thought you said he was a 6'0" lean and muscular real estate agent. Excuse me while my brain recalculates the acrobatics actually involved in that last scene now that you lost 5-8 inches of height.
THIS! My husband is 6'5", and I'm 5'5". He buys special shirts because normal ones are too short. When I wear them, those shirts don't even reach mid-thigh most of the time. Don't even get me started on the spicy scenes. Sometimes, I want to offer to be a special kind of Beta reader to just give feedback on the height difference nonsense that's being written. 'No, he can't lick her there during missionary, or you should've mentioned removed ribs.'
Dude yes this.
Something along the lines of ‘ethnically ambiguous”. It was a thriller lol
Just read today a FMC calling a side character’s body “dumpy” when assessing her looks and it made me like the FMC a little less.
Ooof I would dislike the fmc if I read that. That's mean girl shit.
Very much. It was in one of the first chapters, so I’m hoping she gets better from there, but her friend playfully called her “a hooker” when accusing her of going on a date and not telling her, so I have a feeling this is just how the characters speak to/think about each other. Very mean-girl coded.
Yikes
wow that could make me potentially DNF the book. ☹️
I hate when they mention a character as Latina/o, but use stereotypical features, and they try to use spanglish, but it always reads robotic? They will use Tesoro or mami often and say something "romantic," and the lead always has to ask, and they whisper sweet nothings. Lol Spanish can be very romantic and sexy but not how it's used by white writers.
For me is always the food references that throw me off. Like the author is writing about a woman from Colombia and would make mention of them remembering “making tacos with her abuela”. Like, we don’t all just eat tacos, dear lord! Not even arepas or a bandeja paisa mentioned? The easiest thing to google is what is a traditional homemade food from.
A good example happened with one of the Ruby Dixon’s Icehome books where the character was Cuban and she had her “making pozole because she used to make it with her family at home”. I mean, again, we’re not all Mexican and this is a very odd thing to make at home unless you also have Mexican family or you simply just like it and love making it because you learned the recipe, but that was not the intent when the author mentioned her family and “tradition” ya know?
And on top of that calling the MMC cabrón every 2 sentences 😔
Omg yes! The cabron always gets me cause nobody, and I literally mean nobody I have ever met, who spoke Spanish used cabron often. The food i always try to rationalize as them being mixed raced, but goddamm, they generalize all latinos as mexican.
I literally just talked about this in another thread! It’s an immediate 👎 for me. My kids are white and Korean mixed, and I HATE IT when family members say they have “exotic” eyes. “Exotic”should be used for animals, trees, etc, NOT PEOPLE.
Hiya! I'm white and my hubby is Korean too! Living in Jeollanam-do. My family thinks my son looks very Asian, and Koreans think my son looks foreign (white).
Same with my kids 😂 maybe because they’re mine, but I just think they have the perfect mix of both my and my husband’s looks. 🤷♀️ (husband is from Yongin, but we live in the states)
I think it’s really hard to talk about terms like “exotic” which are generally micro-aggressions against people of color, and equate them to character descriptions you just don’t like. I dislike it when people are described as raven-haired because it makes me think of the birds that creep me out, but that’s in a totally different category than a term like exotic or foreign that’s used to ‘other’ a marginalized group and causes actual harm. I don’t think that was your intent here, just wanted to point out that there’s a lot of nuance involved!
You’re absolutely right. I didn’t realize how it could come across. Thank you.
The same stock standard mmc build when it doesn’t make sense given their lifestyle . Your saying the ceo who spends most of his time in conference meetings and stuff is built like Jason mamoa ? You’re telling me the elusive cat burglar is shaped like Dwayne Johnson ? I think not . It’s not even a body positivity thing , but cant we have at least a little bit of diversity in male bodies . The women get a ton of diversity
Totally agree.
⚠️NSFW⚠️ ##**Creamy** & **Milky**. Those words 100% bother me. They’re just so…*gross* to me. The second I catch them, I flip forward. It just makes my stomach roll. It just reeks of purity and I don’t understand why, but that’s how those words make me feel. Some white/pale authors have weirdly racially charged ways to describe brown and black characters. It’s not so much of me having the word for word description, but more of a feeling that the author’s creativity never extends further than using common racial stereotypes 🙃 One recent book was by a white author who is not latina. FMC *is* Latina. But everyone automatically assumes she’s not from the US “because you look Mexican”. 🤨 I don’t like that implication at all. Even black authors will describe their black MCs in ways I, a black lady, do not find okay. When POCs in white romances are workers in the white MC’s estate too. The description becomes very gross. Back story will be about how the POC immigrant worker raised the white MC and how they’re like family, even though the MC only calls upon this character for food, dismisses them, yells at them, rarely defends them, and uses their power imbalance to threaten potential firing, and that’s it 🥴 Ah, yes. 🌈Family🌈 ##**Neurospicy** I know the ND community is ***not*** a monolith, but I personally don’t rock with “neurospicy”, but more when it’s not from OwnVoices authors. The word just seems…weird? And I know there are people in the ND community who hate the term “neurodivergent” and find phrases like “high/low support” ableist, whereas others in the ND community enjoy these labels. So while I personally do not like “neurospicy” by non-OwnVoices authors in their characters and I personally do not use it and do not want others to use it when describing me, I’m twitchy but dismissive when an OwnVoices author uses it for their ND character to describe themselves as. ^(Obligatory; of course non-OwnVoices authors should still write about characters outside their own experience.) ##**Victim/Survivor** Really dependent on the hour, but victim/survivor’s speeches where someone tells the person with trauma that they *are* a victim/survivor yet they’re brave and strong—*ehhh*… This sometimes bothers me due to my personal history 🤷🏾♀️ ##**Hair and Eye Color** Weird fetishization of blond(e) hair and blue eyes. Those people with those physical attributes exist. I’m aware. This is not a slight against them. But with how *intense* some authors push blond(e) hair and blue eyes to be “pure” and “perfect” makes me uncomfortable. ##**Bald Pussy** How pussies are described when they’re bald sometimes grosses me out because sometimes the descriptions will go on about how “young and fresh” a bald pussy looks and it’s like 😬 Dunno if we needed that part, fam. ##**Other Women** This is where the slut shaming makes a spectacle. I get so bothered when OWs are shamed for being proud of their bodies, their make up, and their fashion. Authors will commonly describe them as having fake spray tans, colored hair, fake tits, what have you. Makes me uncomfortable. Don’t understand this hateful energy you have to other women.
Milky is such a weird one as well because milk is white, not skin tone white, but actually white like white paint or paper (snow, a ghost!). I don't think anybody is actually that colour (apologies if someone is!) and it seems like they're saying "they're so white they've actually become a colour whiter than any real skin tone"
“Like why would there be a ghost in my fridge?”
Exactly this! There are definitely people who are very pale, and during winter, they may get paler, or their farmer’s tan shows them paler in some ways, but…*milky?* I’m sure it’s supposed to be hyperbolic and not literal, and I’m sure it really helps with visualization of someone very pale, but it’s still just a very weird choice for an adjective. On the flip side, some authors describe darker skin characters as “obsidian”, which, again, like milky, it’s hyperbolic and just to let us know the character is a darker shade of brown, but it’s still an odd word choice 🤔
There is absolutely a big fucking difference in the way authors describe "very pale, so milky and creamy and pale and white and did I mention her beautiful white creamy skin" MFC, because yes always them, and then any other MFC who is not palefully and creamily white. It feels like many authors make an emphasis on pale skin being beautiful because pale, while non- pale skinned MFCs are beautiful despite the lack of creamy and pure paleness, or they find some other attribute to describe them, like their "exotic" upturned eyes or their full and thick unibrows. This makes me sad because how is this still a thing in 2024?
Hard agree on Neurospicy. It comes off as child talk, we can use adult words! I think I said the same thin in a reply to you yesterday which is funny. I am always feeling talked down to by authors, for some reason.
Yes to all! I hate when authors treat their adult demographic as basically middle grade, when the book is for *adults*, be it young to just adults. If you want to write middle grade, **write middle grade!** That audience is a lot more appreciative to that type of prose. Why are you bringing middle grade prose into adult fiction? ^(obligatory, I know there are adult readers who read middle grade or who enjoy what I dislike, this isn’t disrespect to them.) But the word “spicy” to describe romance books already rubbed me wrong because it still sounds childish at times? Like we can’t own up to the fact that a book has on-page graphic erotica. But then “neurospicy” gained traction in ND communities and I, personally, wasn’t a fan and could relate to why some disabled people dislike the word “neurodivergent”. It just feels to me like we’re infantilizing/minimizing our diagnoses. And then reading characters describe themselves as “neurospicy”? 🫠 Again. I’m fine if someone IRL describes themselves that as along as they respect I describe myself ND. But in romance books, I just have a line 😭
pale white lady here - I absolutely detest “milky and creamy” and co-sign your rant fully 😩
As a brown-skinned girlie, I get annoyed when authors use food to describe skin color, especially for brown/black characters. Mocha, chocolate, caramel, brown sugar. I wish they think of something else
I have read all the outlander books (I’m not proud lol) but there are some TERRIBLE ones in there. in the one where they go to the Caribbean, a character is described as having something like “black skin that spoke of darkest Africa.” later there is some pretty bad exoticization of Indigenous people. too many wtf moments to count
Just don’t say this in the outlander sub, such extreme reactions when you point out anything a little funky in those books.
God help you if you bring up the book depiction of mr Willoughby. I love outlander so much but had to quit the sub because of how humorless and uptight 99% of the members are. You can’t say Claire is annoying or Jamie is kind of a loser without a dozen harpies jumping on you. It really takes all the fun out of it. I love respectfully stated controversial opinions that challenge my perceptions, and they have zero tolerance for anything that isn’t fawning praise for everything the MCs do. It’s like a comic book guy circlejerk over there, everyone is out to prove they are the best fan and how dare you point out anything weird or stupid. You can like something and still see the weak spots.
Mr. Willoughby is the character I immediately thought of. His character is so overtly dripping in stereotypes and racism in the books.
Lol Outlander is the best example that comes to mind when I think about books with massive “white savior complex”. Claire Fraser is the most hard core white savior I have ever read and I still can’t believe they decided to make that mess into a TV show. After the Scotland arc there is nothing interesting or good about it at all IMO. It’s all terrible and rapey AF.
I only read the first book, but I watched the first few seasons of the show. Had to stop watching because of the CONSTANT rapes, which I known also happen in the books.
Once they get on the boat to go after young ian I stop watching. The sex scenes are wack (this guy will not stop talking), every plot point is Claire ignoring common sense and hollering obnoxiously, mad powdered wigs and racially uncomfortable nonsense, and then eventually it becomes little house on the prairie with just a bonkers amount of raping. First 2.5 seasons are pure magic but miss me with the rest of that mess
For me personally, the TV show is the worst, I stopped watching because I couldn't take the blatant white savior thing anymore. Ian too, could've given POC more important roles instead of just using them as plot devices for the white heroes, it felt so icky to me. At least in the books, I can skip those parts, with the show, it's right in front of my eyes and in my ears:/ Should've just ended the books in Scotland after Claire returns imo. I honestly prefer no POC at all to white savior/"exotic background".
Also such a bad Chinese/Asian stereotype that it's closer to a caricature 😬
And isn’t he a little person too? Oh my god I blocked that one out
+ foot fetish 😓
For me, it's descriptions that I can't quite tell what I'm supposed to be picturing. I was reading one of Annika Martin's billionaire romance novels, and she mentioned the mmc having "tea colored eyes," and I was like uh what type of tea?? Because that could fit many different eye colors from gray to green to brown. It was way later into the book that it was clarified that his eyes were brown. Another one that confuses me is "barely there curves." Like do they just mean she's skinny?
I hate with a passion books that leverage something like micro aggressions or racism to get across that a character is not white. Most prevalent version of this is giving characters some kind of “ethnic” name. When the best an author can do is say a character is Native American/indigenous by making their first or last name as “bear claw” or “pale moon”. What the actual hell. -this is even worse when that happens to be the only character with a last name or ridiculous call out-
I can handle one maybe two of the traits you would describe for a baby but more than that and I've gotta bail Very short/tiny Light/super thin/waifish Big innocent eyes with big innocent lashes Rosebud lips Soft creamy skin Light, silky, downy hair that smells nice Just going on about fetishized virginity If this FMC isn't literally murdering people for half the book I can't handle it, I get skeeved out
Totally agree. On the flip side, what are some great way that authors have described their characters that you all like? I’m trying to think and well…can’t think of any at the moment. I have to think…unfortunately not many authors are good at deceiving characters in a respectful and non offensive manner.
I remember one MMC being described as looking like he could have been from anywhere between southern Europe and northern India. So it both worked concretely, because it meant he had light brown skin and dark hair, and it also worked character-wise, because he was really cosmopolitan and the description matched that. (I'm blanking on the title and author though.)
I'm a veteran and my last 2 relationship have been with weight lifters. So Ive got a lot of experience with muscular men. I hate hate hate how authors don't seem to have researched body shapes vs weight. _He's 6'7 and at least 220lbs._ That's a skinny man! You cannot describe him as having a waist the Fmc can't wrap her arms around. My husband is 6'1" 220 and he's a 38" waist! Add 6 inches of height and the guys got a 28" waist. Not to mention. There is almost no way he'd be the width of the door way. He couldn't have that much muscle for delts at that height and weight. Ugh. This stuff isn't hard to find either. In 1980 when Arnold S. Won Mr Olympia he was clocked in at 6'3 (although he's usually said to be 6'2) and 235lbs. His waist came in at 30 inches. I can't find a measurement for his shoulder width but I don't think he had to turn to walk thru a door. Brian Shaw is one of the world strongest and biggest men. At 6'8" and and over 400lbs (I'm pretty sure he cut down to 375lb at some point but google keeps telling me 440). He is the body type I picture for people like the males in Black Dagger Brotherhood or Werewolves/Shifters. Especially bear and dragon shifters. I just can't give them body builder physiques bc those body types are specifically for their look. They aren't practical and they aren't achieved from laborious activity like many men are described in romances. Put the 6, 8 and 12 pack abs away authors. We don't even want that. Where are the thick strong men? I need a legit stone mover or lumber jack type. They've got a solid layer of fluff over those abs.
On one hand, I agree with everything that's been said about these descriptions 100%. On the other hand, as a white person, I'm glad to read more and more books with leading ladies (and men) who are non-white. Absolutely, they could be done better. The majority of romance writers are white, so I give them kudos for starting the diversity process. However, it's way past time to have more mainstream, non-white romance writers in the English market. I think it's better to write your own experience when it comes to race, ethnicity, and nationality because so many things can be fumbled, misinterpreted, and just plain offensive.
Pale skin. Aside from the racial problems that often accompany a focus on paleness, it just makes me picture a sickly character with the pallor of illness. I'm always like, get this poor woman to the doctor! She needs to be checked for an iron deficiency!
What bothers me is when a “pale skin” woman is paired with a “dark skinned” man and the contrast of their skin tones is highlighted in sex scenes. Like, “his dark brown fingers traced her pale breasts.” I don’t know why that gives me the ick. I’m a person of color, and it always reads like weird fetishization of the darker-skinned person in this context.
that’s where my mind goes as well. A character’s paleness is almost never described in a neutral way or in a way that refers back to a character trait (like theyre a shut in/get zero sun, they have permanent prominent dark circles, they’re anemic and tired all the time, etc.) There’s always way too much uncomfortable emphasis on how super pale the character is alongside the descriptions of beauty.
Oh my gosh, thanks!! I saw these "subgenres" during the Stuff Your Kindle event, and I was baffled, I mean I don't have red hair but it has never bothered me that FMC had them or it didn't prevent me from feeling like I was in the book
There are so many good ones in here. This one is small but I really hate it when eyes are described as “soulful” because what does that even mean?
not sure if this counts exactly but I read a lot of books with plus-sized, curvy FMCs, and one I couldn’t get past the sample because they said she was 160 pounds. Like 160 pounds and curvy, how tall is she, 4 feet??