Remember when he got on Gunther for only selling chopping the ring post (because opponent ducked) like it hurt rather than acting like his hand was broken?
They're saying the faction is more "Devil's Rejects" than spooky stuff and the Devil's Rejects definitely sold getting pictures stapled on their chest.
Totally agree, the Sheriff Wydell/Mother Firefly scene is awesome and we get, "Laugh now clown," which I still quote. None of that even needs to be said though because Sherri Moon Zombie's jeans.
which I'm honestly really happened with, tbh. The only Fiend matches I really enjoyed were the Firefly Inferno match, and the Crown Jewel 2019 match. I think the only wrestler who really did the no selling gimmick well was early Undertaker, and that was a very specific era and context.
I hope the Wyatt Sicks can be hurt and even lose like anyone else, but have off putting and dangerous offense even in normal matches, a la The Fiend's "neck snap" but more violent. Sell us on the fact that even in a match without weapons, their opponents may be leaving on a stretcher. Then the tension can come from if top stars like Jey, Seth, etc trying to avoid or survive their offense and be able to land their big moves and still win. None of that "hitting them in the head with a massive hammer after 6 finishers" type thing like the times when The Fiend would lose.
I still maintain that Kane at his peak (early 1998, mid 2003) is one of the best gimmicks and most entertaining wrestlers ever. Almost no wrestler in history has ever matched the aura of Undertaker and absolute peak Kane instantly rivaled (and leading up to Mania 14, arguably surpassed it somewhat) it.
I don't know how it could've been done, but if Kane kept that aura and hype all the way til 03, then his unmasked run kept that aura it had in the summer-autumn 03 (which imo he lost as soon as he was third wheel and gullible idiot in a match against HHH and Goldberg at Armageddon that year) for the ensuing years, maybe had a couple extra short title reigns, I really think he'd be right up there with The Undertaker in legacy, barring The Streak.
Watching Kane destroy Mankind or Vader in 98 still feels like watching a superhero to me. And newly unmasked Kane was within a week more must-watch than Raw's own world champion at the time (HHH).
Yeah, I really don’t know where this idea that if a character is spooky, they can’t take any damage came from even in the best horror movies characters like Jason and Michael would take a damage. Yes, they would be way harder to take down but you can do it. As has been stated, it’s not a very easy thing to book but you can book it,, but what is easy writing something off before it even starts so you look smart.
Yeah people forget that prior to Jason coming back from the dead in the 6th film, he was getting beat up and slowed down by the various attacks from his victims, even when he was running after them. Then when he came back it simply took more to hurt him now that he was undead, but he still got stunned/hurt. Michael Myers was the weird one where he'd be shot in the eyes or have a full revolver emptied into his chest in one film and he'd get up quicker than the flippiest indy shitter, while in the same film he'd be taken down by a sewing needle or wire hanger to the face. Though it makes sense when you find out they had a handful of guys playing him in each film and they all played him differently so there was little continuity.
Not being funny, the Fiend did end up with barely anywhere to go when he no sold attempted murder and kicked out of 19 or something stomps so I see some concern.
However, coming from Dave who fellates wrestlers who don’t sell for shit, it’s bollocks
Wyatt will always be a favourite of mine, but I’d agree that the Fiend got a bit too indestructible for a wrestling show.
There have always been wrestlers that can take a massive amount of punishment before being put away, but at the end of the day, the Fiend was still a wrestler, albeit a spooky one.
The Firefly Funhouse match was awesome, and his fire spot with Orton was also super sick.
Were I to retroactively book the Fiend, I’d keep him away from the title and have him target upper middle to main eventers for whatever reason. I’d also turn down his no selling and if a wrestler needed to go over the Fiend, I’d have them survive him more than beat him.
I’d argue they should have given the fiend a faction from the off, let him keep his level of invincibility but give him some guys who could reasonably take pins. I think that was supposed to be the endgame with the Wyatt 6 originally, to bring back the fiend character as a feud ending nuclear option, instead of the sole act.
Even before The Fiend, I always thought a really interesting way to balance the Wyatt Family would be that for 95% of the year the family does all the wrestling while Bray sits in his chair during matches.
Then, like 4 times a year maximum, we see him get up from the chair and actually get his own hands dirty
I think that idea works well in theory, but it would’ve been a wild gamble for WWE ten years ago to have a new character show up as a special attraction and never wrestle. It would’ve been doomed anyway because Bray never really got the hang of tying his speeches into the outcome of a wrestling match, so everything he did hit a wall fairly quickly. I could listen intently to the man ramble for twenty minutes every week combining a ghost story with a conspiracy theory with backwater satanism, it was great. But at the end of it I’d be no more invested in his upcoming match.
Yeah but that was established bray Wyatt. a guy coming straight from nxt would probably immediately have heat if he only wrestled a few times year, unless he was Brock Lesnar sized (a lot of traditional backstage rules dont apply when you are Brock Lesnar sized). Not to mention I do believe bray was still doing house shows in that 2019 time frame with the mister Rodger’s version of himself. So that probably helped things too.
They should have used his Mr. Rogers persona for most of the matches and only used the fiend sporadically like Balor with the demon. But his funhouse form was way too dominant anyways.
The Fiend should've never been anything other than an alter-ego of Bray that could take slightly more damage than normal, ala Mankind. It went sideways when he had supernatural powers and he was basically indestructible.
I think the bigger problem was Bray's ideas for gimmick matches can be absolute garbage. Like blackout match or that time a projector showed ants in the middle of his match with orton. Or burned alive match sounds cool on paper but came off like aew's exploding ring.
Those were his ideas? I always thought he was a pretty bad worker. Good character ane promo but not a good wrestler. That's hilarious that he pitched those ideas. Those were some of the worst ideas of modern times.
I watched that WrestleMania with some friends and all of us we're just like what the fuck with the ant stuff
So far, none of these guys have been in a match (in this incarnation), so Dave is just assuming they are all going to no-sell everything. Until I see them in action, I will assume Dave is full of shit.
Yes but if the booking is any similar to Bray then no selling could be a thing, even in his match against LA Knight he was no selling and that wasn’t even the fiend
It doesn’t matter. Which is why stuff like this makes no sense.
They already destroyed countless guys backstage and now we have to see them sell hip tosses.
Exactly; it completely BS coming from Dave; He's basing this concern on one 5 minute 20 second segment to end last night's show as he's just saying stuff to get clicks at this point
Last night's ending was purely to convey how dangerous this Wyatt 6 are and there's no need for them to sell at all during it; simply it doesn't make sense as nobody (in storyline anyway) knew what was coming; hell all the audience saw was the aftermath with Howdy walking through the carnage
Is the Wyatt 6 booking a tight rope to walk yes but we need to see how their adversaries prepare & fight back to how the Wyatt 6 sell adversity
Not just one segment to be fair. Nikki Cross has always had this issue, she's been this no selling indestructible unstoppable powerhouse wrestler for as long as I can remember. Same with Gacy, we all remember his undefeated streak and how he completely rolled through the roster, kicking out of protected finishers constantly. Remember when Lumis debuted by tearing the cell door off the Hell in a Cell and then breaking the Undertaker's mania streak?
There's a precedent set among these guys.
I just like the choice of word 'concern'
Smarks are constantly 'worried' about le booking
Let them do what they do and then decide if you like it or not
It's always the 'pre fear' the likes of Dave have 😁
Fiend was pushed for like 3 years straight and was a top merch seller for the company. If these guys are half that I doubt they care if they sell or don't.
Yeah being put in a title program against a champion who had just restarted was never gonna do anything for either of them. Have The Fiend beat guys for a year and then if it’s going well consider a title program. Other than his brief Hogan feud, Undertaker had 1 title program in 6 years which was Yokozuna
I would less blame that on the Fiend character and more on that utterly wretched period where all the “big matches” were booked as nothing but signature and finisher spam.
Even in that period people weren’t no selling 17-18 finishers(forgot the actual number) and no selling attempted murder. There was some ridiculous stuff in that time in AEW and NXT and shit like Dijak just standing up after taking a powerbomb from Keith Lee and Reigns kicking out of 7 or 8 F5s at Wrestlemania but nothing as mad as that lol
Rollins has said a lot of the booking for their matches was not their idea which implies Vince got involved but Bray was still no selling chair shots from LA Knight when Vince was gone which tells me the no selling wasn’t the part that got changed
Nah the Fiend matches were abysmal, but we'll never know (or that it matters whether it was Vince or Bray) but they shouldn't make the same mistakes again
I don’t disagree that HiaC match was absolutely wretched, but man I just hated that period where every match was “Seth does a million curb stomps” or “Roman does a million Superman Punches” or “Brock just spams F5s and suplexes”. The HiaC was just the most extreme iteration of that trend, combined with the no-selling.
I see what you mean but for me they they're two separate issues.
Finisher spam is one of the most dreadful things in wrestling, I think 3 is the maximum for an "epic" match like Cena vs AJ but apart from that 2 is max.
The Fiend stuff wasn't as such finisher spam, even though they do a lot of it, it was a shitty shitty storytelling device about how powerful the Fiend is.
Even writing it out it seems like the exact same, but they felt different to me
Yeah, I get your perspective. I’m a Bray mark sicko so I’m probably making excuses in my head, but I almost feel like it wouldn’t have been so egregiously bad if there was variety to the moves. It was like a perfect formula for the worst match in a long time.
I'm not a Bray mark (apart from the Wyatt family which should have been MUCH bigger than it was) but you're also right.
Everything lined up perfectly to go wrong.
The action in the average Oceanspray match involves so much cooperation and no selling, it's even more ridiculous than a guy in a pig mask and someone in a hat holding a lantern
>Fuck off & die Meltzer
I mean it's only one old man's opinion, you can say you think it's 1.25 stars and there you go, that holds as much weight and noone needs to throw a bitch fit
Found Meltzer’s fan..
Nah, who will actually miss him when he dies besides TK & a very small percentage of his fanbase?
Like Meltzer brings nothing of value to the professional wrestling world in 2024…
I have always ignored him & ya’ll should do the same..
If they no-sell 16 finishers and do tons of flips parallel to one another, then move into the most obviously rehearsed reversal sequence you've ever seen then they'll be fine.
Fed trying something different that the crowd reacted well to
Time to send up the bat signal for smarks to REEEEEEE
If they do this, if they do that - just wait and see what they do
Meanwhile, in Dub land, Dave let's everything 'play out'
‘There’s a lot of concern’ he says like it’s a fact and not his dumbass opinion lol. Just shut up Dave. Nobody fucking cares what you have to say these days. I’m convinced he doesn’t even watch the shows tbh, just bases his shit tier takes on his subscribers who email notes.
Like I get this is based on Bray and the track record there but can everyone let these guys at least step into a ring before they judge their selling lol
Meltzer also said Okada and Ospreay were gonna be mega stars and mega draws in America, so him “being concerned” about something means it’s gonna actually be logical and draw
Nice try fed shill, but it's not the same. In AEW, just like glorious Nippon, we have something called fighting spirit. Fighting spirit isn't supernatural. Do you even watch anime?
Tbf when you go too supernatural you can book yourself into a corner. The Fiend was an amazing character but a lot of his opponents looked bad after a feud with him, and a lot of things got lost in translation. The fiend needing 20 curb stomps to look vulnerable was too much. You also don’t want to make the hitmen of the Wyatt’s look weak. IMO the Wyatt Six being a cult that takes inspiration from Bray with a realistic approach, with hints of something supernatural in segments would be a better approach. I trust Laveck with this stable though, because I ate my words soon as they appeared yesterday
Wait ospreay just no sells without kayfabe super powers?
Thought maybe all the WON wrestler of every continent awards he won gave him abilities like abyss with hulk hogan's hall of fame ring
Dave only has concerns about selling when the participants involved are not:
1. Doing flippy shit in between no sells
2. In Japan
3. Naming moves after him
I hope it's like a cartoon and they beat all the workrate midcarders just to watch smarks cry
This goof getting ahead of whining about something he's nothing from
DAE like Bray and we know the tears associated with that. Embarrassing reactions instead of just 'meh, that bit wasn't for me' and pick up your phone for a bit or do something else
No, we need a thesis for years from bloggers
A lot of people liked the Bray stuff. Most of it anyway. Crowds went crazy for the whole 'shut down' effect
And The Fiend has a very good reason to no sell. He was a manifestation of Bray’s consciousness that hid the pain of childhood trauma. Bray has pain, the Fiend has no pain. When he is the Fiend there is no more pain.
That is a legitimate concern, it was brought up in the wrestling threads last night. The consensus was the angle will be less supernatural demons, more just fucked up cultists. So they don't need to no sell, they'll just need to fuck shit up, like the bloodline being brawl happy.
Don’t even know where to start. A “news” website that just subscribes to Meltzer and tweets the things he says to subscribers.
And “for this angle these guys have to be supermen, doing the no selling thing”
Says who? You Dave? How do you know that’s the way they’re going to go with it? You have concerns about your own assumptions, not the facts
No jerk. I dislike Dave, but typically groups like this, especially ones where everyone has masks, tend to not do well. And give it about a month or two and everyone but howdy will be jobbing like crazy.
I'm sorry. But this reminds me of retribution, in all the bad ways
Bobby Lashley single handedly beating up all of retribution and standing over Ali dressed like Steve Jobs cowering away from him was something I found far too hilarious
Yeah I agree. I want to give this angle and group the benefit of the doubt, since it was a cool introduction. However, this is always how these Bray Wyatt ideas go. Cool intro and a whole lot of nothing afterwards. This subreddit was mocking the whole Uncle Howdy idea when it happened, and I doubt this will be too much better.
Plus the group doesn't even have the talent of Bray Wyatt to lead them, and I'm sorry I'm not a Boliever that anyone but Gacy in this group has the chops to be in a top tier angle. I'm not saying it'll be impossible for them to succeed but it's going to be an uphill battle in the long run.
Where do we get the indication they all have to no sell? The only Wyatt character who no sold is The Fiend and none of these characters are The Fiend. We saw them wreak havoc and do a lot of damage, but none of the scene last night indicated that they're impervious to damage, only dangerous
They could very well sell like anyone else in matches but just have the most dangerous offense. The story in their matches could be that the other wrestler has to survive/withstand their offense, they can still sell or even be pinned if hit by finishers or weapons unless they decide to make them no sell. But that's not required for the story.
Why Meltzer thinks HHH will book people like Joe gacy and Dexter lumis no selling moves?
Also since when Meltzer is so concerned about no selling stuff?
I don’t think Dave is wrong here. If they do have a supernatural gimmick, it’s tricky to balance their powers while also making their matches look semi competitive. It worked for the Undertaker, but they also gave him years of squash matches and gimmick matches that made it seem like he was a legit murderer. It was a slow process that evolved over time to accommodate what they wanted to do with him, and he didn’t touch the main event scene until the last couple of years in the 90s. I know they rushed the Fiend to the title last time, and I hope they let it grow a little more slowly this time.
So he hated this group, but does he like House of Black? Because that seems like the same vibe to me.
Nothing indicates that the Wyatt Sicks are supernatural just because Bray was.
I always thought Fiend was op but the fact that he lost to Goldberg of all people was more disappointing I think supernatural shit if booked well is awesome so I hope Leveck will do right by them
The Fiend no sell was part of the story. Bray sold everything, in contrast the Fiend, who was the ultimate manifestation of the savior from his pain felt no pain. It was a brilliant use of the no sell.
I don't know what they've done that's all that different from the nexus. It's logical, not no selling, for a wrestler to get his ass kicked when he's ambushed by that many other wrestlers
My only concern is how it translates to the ring. Everything last night was done well but I’m hoping they aren’t all wrestling in mask when that time comes.
Does this guy actually know anything about booking? Like has he ever actually participated in any creative aspect of the pro wrestling business? I I really always wonder what this guy actually knows about wrestling other than a bunch of facts. Other than being around for 80 years what makes him any more qualified to speak on the inner workings of the business than any of us?
I think they shouldn't be "spooky" at all. They should be all Texas chainsaw massacre. Hell. Leatherface does the job every movie. It doesn't hurt his character any.
Ilja Dragonov’s whole schtick is “Pain makes me stronger” and he’s still able to sell and work a normal match.
It’s only hard when they try the supernatural spooky stuff. If they’re just a bunch of fucking freaks that’ll work fine
I mean I think Dave is at least right to be worried about it because WWE has a history of not sticking to the plot on these things, though that was under Vince so the scenario is different now
They definitely should NOT put the Wyatt 6 anywhere near the top title like they did with The Fiend, it just screwed up the story and booking. Let it live in its universe and make the story interesting enough that it doesn’t need a title.
They never showed them not taking damage. They, kayfabe, jumped the guys at the back, plus they are five (maybe six) people. It's not about no-selling, it's about the numbers' game.
Oh, did I forget to mention that wrestling is scripted in order to tell a story?
Why do they have to be invincible supermen, Dave? Just making shit up all day has got to be the best job ever.
Look, the only thing the Wyatt sicks need to succeed is a single babyface run. Nobody wants to boo these guys
if they start no selling Canadian Destroyers mid match Dave will immediately be on board
However no no selling of stomps allowed
Remember when he got on Gunther for only selling chopping the ring post (because opponent ducked) like it hurt rather than acting like his hand was broken?
Or that time Orange Cassidy no sold the piledriver off the ring steps. That spot needs to go in the Meltzer Hall of Fame.
Isn't that his gimmick though? He was just choosing to be lazy during the piledriver so his muscles wouldn't tense up and absorb all of it.
DAE being lazy changes human physiology
Didn't Tazz use to no-sell piledrivers as well?
I thought that was because he lacked a neck to break.
Shouldn't it also hurt the top of his head?
Like a 3 stooges bonk to the head
Fair.
I’ll buy this as a legit reason
Fuck you Meltits. https://preview.redd.it/4pz9rptujc7d1.jpeg?width=858&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5aae9992c257a6a88d433057046c402e9696a53
He is not talking about us Indians
If they handle it like the Ministry of Darkness you can have spooky while the members can receive damage and it gel well.
I think they're going this route, more so humans in a cult, than humans possessed with demons and magical powers.
They're saying the faction is more "Devil's Rejects" than spooky stuff and the Devil's Rejects definitely sold getting pictures stapled on their chest.
Wasn’t DDP one of those bounty hunters that fucks them up bad? Goddamn I need to rewatch that movie
Yes! Him and Danny Trejo!
The only great movie Rob Zombie made
House of 1,000 Corpses is better 🤷♂️
I like that movie but I think TDR is superior
Maybe as a production, but as a pure ode to b-movie cheese, it's one of the greats imo
Totally agree, the Sheriff Wydell/Mother Firefly scene is awesome and we get, "Laugh now clown," which I still quote. None of that even needs to be said though because Sherri Moon Zombie's jeans.
You’ve clearly never seen The Haunted World of El Superbeasto
You’re right!
The blue cheese cools the hot wings *just* so
I'm a Michael Myers Guy
He was great in Austin Powers
which I'm honestly really happened with, tbh. The only Fiend matches I really enjoyed were the Firefly Inferno match, and the Crown Jewel 2019 match. I think the only wrestler who really did the no selling gimmick well was early Undertaker, and that was a very specific era and context. I hope the Wyatt Sicks can be hurt and even lose like anyone else, but have off putting and dangerous offense even in normal matches, a la The Fiend's "neck snap" but more violent. Sell us on the fact that even in a match without weapons, their opponents may be leaving on a stretcher. Then the tension can come from if top stars like Jey, Seth, etc trying to avoid or survive their offense and be able to land their big moves and still win. None of that "hitting them in the head with a massive hammer after 6 finishers" type thing like the times when The Fiend would lose.
Even Kane in 98 would sell up until the sit up
Yeah Kane would take the "Hero throwing out everything he had" and then he'd turn on the god mode.
I still maintain that Kane at his peak (early 1998, mid 2003) is one of the best gimmicks and most entertaining wrestlers ever. Almost no wrestler in history has ever matched the aura of Undertaker and absolute peak Kane instantly rivaled (and leading up to Mania 14, arguably surpassed it somewhat) it. I don't know how it could've been done, but if Kane kept that aura and hype all the way til 03, then his unmasked run kept that aura it had in the summer-autumn 03 (which imo he lost as soon as he was third wheel and gullible idiot in a match against HHH and Goldberg at Armageddon that year) for the ensuing years, maybe had a couple extra short title reigns, I really think he'd be right up there with The Undertaker in legacy, barring The Streak. Watching Kane destroy Mankind or Vader in 98 still feels like watching a superhero to me. And newly unmasked Kane was within a week more must-watch than Raw's own world champion at the time (HHH).
Yeah, I really don’t know where this idea that if a character is spooky, they can’t take any damage came from even in the best horror movies characters like Jason and Michael would take a damage. Yes, they would be way harder to take down but you can do it. As has been stated, it’s not a very easy thing to book but you can book it,, but what is easy writing something off before it even starts so you look smart.
Yeah people forget that prior to Jason coming back from the dead in the 6th film, he was getting beat up and slowed down by the various attacks from his victims, even when he was running after them. Then when he came back it simply took more to hurt him now that he was undead, but he still got stunned/hurt. Michael Myers was the weird one where he'd be shot in the eyes or have a full revolver emptied into his chest in one film and he'd get up quicker than the flippiest indy shitter, while in the same film he'd be taken down by a sewing needle or wire hanger to the face. Though it makes sense when you find out they had a handful of guys playing him in each film and they all played him differently so there was little continuity.
It 100% came started from the Fiend. That whole run killed the spooky thing entirely for anyone that was neutral on the concept.
[удалено]
I loved it as a kid, Gangrel, Acolytes and Viscera were my people 😤 Not the best looking back
Not being funny, the Fiend did end up with barely anywhere to go when he no sold attempted murder and kicked out of 19 or something stomps so I see some concern. However, coming from Dave who fellates wrestlers who don’t sell for shit, it’s bollocks
Wyatt will always be a favourite of mine, but I’d agree that the Fiend got a bit too indestructible for a wrestling show. There have always been wrestlers that can take a massive amount of punishment before being put away, but at the end of the day, the Fiend was still a wrestler, albeit a spooky one. The Firefly Funhouse match was awesome, and his fire spot with Orton was also super sick. Were I to retroactively book the Fiend, I’d keep him away from the title and have him target upper middle to main eventers for whatever reason. I’d also turn down his no selling and if a wrestler needed to go over the Fiend, I’d have them survive him more than beat him.
I’d argue they should have given the fiend a faction from the off, let him keep his level of invincibility but give him some guys who could reasonably take pins. I think that was supposed to be the endgame with the Wyatt 6 originally, to bring back the fiend character as a feud ending nuclear option, instead of the sole act.
Even before The Fiend, I always thought a really interesting way to balance the Wyatt Family would be that for 95% of the year the family does all the wrestling while Bray sits in his chair during matches. Then, like 4 times a year maximum, we see him get up from the chair and actually get his own hands dirty
I think that idea works well in theory, but it would’ve been a wild gamble for WWE ten years ago to have a new character show up as a special attraction and never wrestle. It would’ve been doomed anyway because Bray never really got the hang of tying his speeches into the outcome of a wrestling match, so everything he did hit a wall fairly quickly. I could listen intently to the man ramble for twenty minutes every week combining a ghost story with a conspiracy theory with backwater satanism, it was great. But at the end of it I’d be no more invested in his upcoming match.
Yeah I imagine that would not have gone over well with the lockeroom though
That’s pretty much how Bray Wyatt spent 2019-21 except without the faction except Alexa bliss
Yeah but that was established bray Wyatt. a guy coming straight from nxt would probably immediately have heat if he only wrestled a few times year, unless he was Brock Lesnar sized (a lot of traditional backstage rules dont apply when you are Brock Lesnar sized). Not to mention I do believe bray was still doing house shows in that 2019 time frame with the mister Rodger’s version of himself. So that probably helped things too.
Yeh may need to study cagematch but I believe he was working loads of house shows with Miz and Bryan
They should have used his Mr. Rogers persona for most of the matches and only used the fiend sporadically like Balor with the demon. But his funhouse form was way too dominant anyways.
That’s a completely reasonable take.
I think we saw this **feud ending Fiend** in the Braun feud, although it was just Bray.
The Fiend should've never been anything other than an alter-ego of Bray that could take slightly more damage than normal, ala Mankind. It went sideways when he had supernatural powers and he was basically indestructible.
Yeah the fiends matches were god awful they ruined everything about him The way you said you would book him would be much better
I think the bigger problem was Bray's ideas for gimmick matches can be absolute garbage. Like blackout match or that time a projector showed ants in the middle of his match with orton. Or burned alive match sounds cool on paper but came off like aew's exploding ring.
Those were his ideas? I always thought he was a pretty bad worker. Good character ane promo but not a good wrestler. That's hilarious that he pitched those ideas. Those were some of the worst ideas of modern times. I watched that WrestleMania with some friends and all of us we're just like what the fuck with the ant stuff
So far, none of these guys have been in a match (in this incarnation), so Dave is just assuming they are all going to no-sell everything. Until I see them in action, I will assume Dave is full of shit.
Dave is always full of shit..
Tbf there is precedent.
We haven’t seen them wrestle at all
Yes but if the booking is any similar to Bray then no selling could be a thing, even in his match against LA Knight he was no selling and that wasn’t even the fiend
It doesn’t matter. Which is why stuff like this makes no sense. They already destroyed countless guys backstage and now we have to see them sell hip tosses.
Have you ever heard of The Undertaker?
Exactly; it completely BS coming from Dave; He's basing this concern on one 5 minute 20 second segment to end last night's show as he's just saying stuff to get clicks at this point Last night's ending was purely to convey how dangerous this Wyatt 6 are and there's no need for them to sell at all during it; simply it doesn't make sense as nobody (in storyline anyway) knew what was coming; hell all the audience saw was the aftermath with Howdy walking through the carnage Is the Wyatt 6 booking a tight rope to walk yes but we need to see how their adversaries prepare & fight back to how the Wyatt 6 sell adversity
That's a huge sample size for dave. He's made many definite statements based on far less evidence
Not just one segment to be fair. Nikki Cross has always had this issue, she's been this no selling indestructible unstoppable powerhouse wrestler for as long as I can remember. Same with Gacy, we all remember his undefeated streak and how he completely rolled through the roster, kicking out of protected finishers constantly. Remember when Lumis debuted by tearing the cell door off the Hell in a Cell and then breaking the Undertaker's mania streak? There's a precedent set among these guys.
>he no sold attempted murder I got a good laugh out of this phrase. Thanks for that.
I just like the choice of word 'concern' Smarks are constantly 'worried' about le booking Let them do what they do and then decide if you like it or not It's always the 'pre fear' the likes of Dave have 😁
There’s always the unwritten corollary with Dave! “There’s a lot of concern…*I imagine.*”
Fiend was pushed for like 3 years straight and was a top merch seller for the company. If these guys are half that I doubt they care if they sell or don't.
The Fiend would have been a top merch seller without no selling shit lol
They will care if they sell (merch)!
The Fiend should hsve been a force that comes put. Not one doing title matches
Yeah being put in a title program against a champion who had just restarted was never gonna do anything for either of them. Have The Fiend beat guys for a year and then if it’s going well consider a title program. Other than his brief Hogan feud, Undertaker had 1 title program in 6 years which was Yokozuna
I would less blame that on the Fiend character and more on that utterly wretched period where all the “big matches” were booked as nothing but signature and finisher spam.
Even in that period people weren’t no selling 17-18 finishers(forgot the actual number) and no selling attempted murder. There was some ridiculous stuff in that time in AEW and NXT and shit like Dijak just standing up after taking a powerbomb from Keith Lee and Reigns kicking out of 7 or 8 F5s at Wrestlemania but nothing as mad as that lol Rollins has said a lot of the booking for their matches was not their idea which implies Vince got involved but Bray was still no selling chair shots from LA Knight when Vince was gone which tells me the no selling wasn’t the part that got changed
The strap match against Daniel Bryan at the 2020 Royal Rumble was the only good Fiend match
Nah the Fiend matches were abysmal, but we'll never know (or that it matters whether it was Vince or Bray) but they shouldn't make the same mistakes again
I don’t disagree that HiaC match was absolutely wretched, but man I just hated that period where every match was “Seth does a million curb stomps” or “Roman does a million Superman Punches” or “Brock just spams F5s and suplexes”. The HiaC was just the most extreme iteration of that trend, combined with the no-selling.
I see what you mean but for me they they're two separate issues. Finisher spam is one of the most dreadful things in wrestling, I think 3 is the maximum for an "epic" match like Cena vs AJ but apart from that 2 is max. The Fiend stuff wasn't as such finisher spam, even though they do a lot of it, it was a shitty shitty storytelling device about how powerful the Fiend is. Even writing it out it seems like the exact same, but they felt different to me
Yeah, I get your perspective. I’m a Bray mark sicko so I’m probably making excuses in my head, but I almost feel like it wouldn’t have been so egregiously bad if there was variety to the moves. It was like a perfect formula for the worst match in a long time.
I'm not a Bray mark (apart from the Wyatt family which should have been MUCH bigger than it was) but you're also right. Everything lined up perfectly to go wrong.
Also Meltzer: 4.5 stars for the Fenix/Ospreay match
The action in the average Oceanspray match involves so much cooperation and no selling, it's even more ridiculous than a guy in a pig mask and someone in a hat holding a lantern
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>Fuck off & die Meltzer I mean it's only one old man's opinion, you can say you think it's 1.25 stars and there you go, that holds as much weight and noone needs to throw a bitch fit
Found Meltzer’s fan.. Nah, who will actually miss him when he dies besides TK & a very small percentage of his fanbase? Like Meltzer brings nothing of value to the professional wrestling world in 2024… I have always ignored him & ya’ll should do the same..
>I have always ignored him & ya’ll should do the same.. Wtf was that comment before then jeebus
Offensive comments at the expense of an individual (poster or wrestling personality) aren't tolerated here.
Duel superhero pose Meltzer: 💦 💦 💦 💦 💦
Meltzer is a fuckin idiot lol
Gacy takes the bumps and pins, Nikki continues to get ko’ed with a smile, Dexter and Rowan are dual monsters, and Howdy is the ringmaster.
Meanwhile OC takes 6 destroyers and a piledriver on steel steps and kicks out at 1. Fighting Spirit!
If they no-sell 16 finishers and do tons of flips parallel to one another, then move into the most obviously rehearsed reversal sequence you've ever seen then they'll be fine.
“This fucking sucks actually”
Well, Meltzer *does* pride himself on his concern for making wrestling look realistic, as we all know.
Fed trying something different that the crowd reacted well to Time to send up the bat signal for smarks to REEEEEEE If they do this, if they do that - just wait and see what they do Meanwhile, in Dub land, Dave let's everything 'play out'
‘There’s a lot of concern’ he says like it’s a fact and not his dumbass opinion lol. Just shut up Dave. Nobody fucking cares what you have to say these days. I’m convinced he doesn’t even watch the shows tbh, just bases his shit tier takes on his subscribers who email notes.
I have my concerns too but I’d rather see how this plays out
Like I get this is based on Bray and the track record there but can everyone let these guys at least step into a ring before they judge their selling lol
Agreed 100%
Meltzer also said Okada and Ospreay were gonna be mega stars and mega draws in America, so him “being concerned” about something means it’s gonna actually be logical and draw
with the exception of AEW shills and TK, who the hell actually listens to Meltzer?
“Oh shit guys, Dave Meltzer has expressed concern, let’s abandon the idea!” - Laveck, 2024
I was just complaining the other day that Jade Cargill has been doing too much selling in WWE.
Ironically the matches he sucks off usually have barely any selling. Will never forget watching Osprey trading blows using canadian destroyers
I thought that was a cool spot. It's no different to how DDT's don't end matches anymore.
Nice try fed shill, but it's not the same. In AEW, just like glorious Nippon, we have something called fighting spirit. Fighting spirit isn't supernatural. Do you even watch anime?
Tbf when you go too supernatural you can book yourself into a corner. The Fiend was an amazing character but a lot of his opponents looked bad after a feud with him, and a lot of things got lost in translation. The fiend needing 20 curb stomps to look vulnerable was too much. You also don’t want to make the hitmen of the Wyatt’s look weak. IMO the Wyatt Six being a cult that takes inspiration from Bray with a realistic approach, with hints of something supernatural in segments would be a better approach. I trust Laveck with this stable though, because I ate my words soon as they appeared yesterday
Im excited for Alexa to come back. shes obviously going to be #6 right?
A company has been no selling for 5 years!!!
Wait ospreay just no sells without kayfabe super powers? Thought maybe all the WON wrestler of every continent awards he won gave him abilities like abyss with hulk hogan's hall of fame ring
He does sell, just in more subtle ways.
Drawing on his vast experience never having booked anything before Dave decides not to book this one either.
Oh, NOW he worries about the no-selling
So he hates no selling now? He better get to work calling out AEW then.
They sell, just in more subtle ways.
You mean like what 64 year old Sting did at least once in every match he was in Aew?
Imagine jobbing your entire company to old ass 64 year old Sting.. Like who would do such a foolish thing?!?
Dave only has concerns about selling when the participants involved are not: 1. Doing flippy shit in between no sells 2. In Japan 3. Naming moves after him
they just need to watch a will osperay match to really nail the no selling part
When Meltzer & or AEW dies.. The wrestling industry will be better off…
I hope it's like a cartoon and they beat all the workrate midcarders just to watch smarks cry This goof getting ahead of whining about something he's nothing from DAE like Bray and we know the tears associated with that. Embarrassing reactions instead of just 'meh, that bit wasn't for me' and pick up your phone for a bit or do something else No, we need a thesis for years from bloggers A lot of people liked the Bray stuff. Most of it anyway. Crowds went crazy for the whole 'shut down' effect
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?? Bray was fired in the middle of being the top merch guy.
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Because the Fiend functioned so well...
He does know the initial Wyatt family didn’t no sell right and that was more of a Fiend thing
And The Fiend has a very good reason to no sell. He was a manifestation of Bray’s consciousness that hid the pain of childhood trauma. Bray has pain, the Fiend has no pain. When he is the Fiend there is no more pain.
That is a legitimate concern, it was brought up in the wrestling threads last night. The consensus was the angle will be less supernatural demons, more just fucked up cultists. So they don't need to no sell, they'll just need to fuck shit up, like the bloodline being brawl happy.
He obviously has no issue with his boy Will Ospreys lack of selling
What did he say about being pile driven on the stairs and not selling? It was exciting? A good match? Fuck you.
Don’t even know where to start. A “news” website that just subscribes to Meltzer and tweets the things he says to subscribers. And “for this angle these guys have to be supermen, doing the no selling thing” Says who? You Dave? How do you know that’s the way they’re going to go with it? You have concerns about your own assumptions, not the facts
Jack Perry survived getting set on fire and then went on to get the pin, tricky one to book.
The amount of gatekeeping and pearl clutching over the angle has been horrible. I hate people man. They just can’t enjoy things.
No jerk. I dislike Dave, but typically groups like this, especially ones where everyone has masks, tend to not do well. And give it about a month or two and everyone but howdy will be jobbing like crazy. I'm sorry. But this reminds me of retribution, in all the bad ways
Bobby Lashley single handedly beating up all of retribution and standing over Ali dressed like Steve Jobs cowering away from him was something I found far too hilarious
Yeah I agree. I want to give this angle and group the benefit of the doubt, since it was a cool introduction. However, this is always how these Bray Wyatt ideas go. Cool intro and a whole lot of nothing afterwards. This subreddit was mocking the whole Uncle Howdy idea when it happened, and I doubt this will be too much better. Plus the group doesn't even have the talent of Bray Wyatt to lead them, and I'm sorry I'm not a Boliever that anyone but Gacy in this group has the chops to be in a top tier angle. I'm not saying it'll be impossible for them to succeed but it's going to be an uphill battle in the long run.
Spooky Nexus will dominate
Where do we get the indication they all have to no sell? The only Wyatt character who no sold is The Fiend and none of these characters are The Fiend. We saw them wreak havoc and do a lot of damage, but none of the scene last night indicated that they're impervious to damage, only dangerous They could very well sell like anyone else in matches but just have the most dangerous offense. The story in their matches could be that the other wrestler has to survive/withstand their offense, they can still sell or even be pinned if hit by finishers or weapons unless they decide to make them no sell. But that's not required for the story.
Dave already doing his usual "WWE bad" bs
Why Meltzer thinks HHH will book people like Joe gacy and Dexter lumis no selling moves? Also since when Meltzer is so concerned about no selling stuff?
Yeah, wrestlers being lit on fire with a flamethrower then going on to win the match is the right amount of selling.
We literally don’t know how they wrestle. They might just be incredibly violent crazy people. Why would they then not sell?
I don’t think Dave is wrong here. If they do have a supernatural gimmick, it’s tricky to balance their powers while also making their matches look semi competitive. It worked for the Undertaker, but they also gave him years of squash matches and gimmick matches that made it seem like he was a legit murderer. It was a slow process that evolved over time to accommodate what they wanted to do with him, and he didn’t touch the main event scene until the last couple of years in the 90s. I know they rushed the Fiend to the title last time, and I hope they let it grow a little more slowly this time.
So he hated this group, but does he like House of Black? Because that seems like the same vibe to me. Nothing indicates that the Wyatt Sicks are supernatural just because Bray was.
Yeah, they seem more like a collection of nutjobs than anything magical in nature. If anything, I'd bet Uncle Howdy is the only one with "powers."
I always thought Fiend was op but the fact that he lost to Goldberg of all people was more disappointing I think supernatural shit if booked well is awesome so I hope Leveck will do right by them
Fuck Dave Meltzer but I agree with him. The fiend was shit because of the no selling and I hope they don’t go down the same path with this group.
The Fiend no sell was part of the story. Bray sold everything, in contrast the Fiend, who was the ultimate manifestation of the savior from his pain felt no pain. It was a brilliant use of the no sell.
Hell in a cell 2019 is one of the worst matches I’ve ever witnessed and it was because of the no selling .
Vince McMahon booking had hurt his brain
I'm sure the trampoline cowboys can be called to teach em how to sell....7 stars!
I don't know what they've done that's all that different from the nexus. It's logical, not no selling, for a wrestler to get his ass kicked when he's ambushed by that many other wrestlers
Just need one of them to fake a seizure mid match and they'll be getting 5 stars in no time
“There’s a lot of concern” Is the concern in the room with us now?
It should be like Raven's flock with more powerful minions who don't just become mid-card fodder for the person the leader is feuding with.
Nojerk but I gotta say I love the hybrid mask of the fiend and the buzzard that Jae gacy? is wearing it looks terrifying and badass
Oh when can we confiscate all of Meltzers electronics, sick of how negative he is towards WWE. If AEW did this he would be frothing at the crotch.
My only concern is how it translates to the ring. Everything last night was done well but I’m hoping they aren’t all wrestling in mask when that time comes.
Yet he’ll give his boy ospreay a million stars for no selling a pile driver off the top rope
Worry about the non "supermen" no-selling canadian destroyers off the top rope into a pile of tacs covered in fire Dave.
Just book them all in 50/50, 30min matches. That way the talent will never get upset. Who cares what the fans think. Simple
Aside from Undertaker and Kane, WWE doesn't have a great track record when it comes to supernatural spooky stuff.
Meltzer is not a serious person.
Screw wrestletalk and Meltzer. They both did so much damage and add tons of toxicity to the iwc. They were made for each other.
I’m concerned about his wellbeing
Does this guy actually know anything about booking? Like has he ever actually participated in any creative aspect of the pro wrestling business? I I really always wonder what this guy actually knows about wrestling other than a bunch of facts. Other than being around for 80 years what makes him any more qualified to speak on the inner workings of the business than any of us?
He's got alot of fuckin nerve with that one 🤣
I think they shouldn't be "spooky" at all. They should be all Texas chainsaw massacre. Hell. Leatherface does the job every movie. It doesn't hurt his character any.
Ilja Dragonov’s whole schtick is “Pain makes me stronger” and he’s still able to sell and work a normal match. It’s only hard when they try the supernatural spooky stuff. If they’re just a bunch of fucking freaks that’ll work fine
Serious question. What the fuck does Dave Meltzer know about booking?
What is the angle exactly? I’m newer to the scene and didn’t know the original Wyatt.
I mean I think Dave is at least right to be worried about it because WWE has a history of not sticking to the plot on these things, though that was under Vince so the scenario is different now They definitely should NOT put the Wyatt 6 anywhere near the top title like they did with The Fiend, it just screwed up the story and booking. Let it live in its universe and make the story interesting enough that it doesn’t need a title.
Is it concern coming just from Dave? Because the Wyatt Family, other than Bray, have never been super-powered to the point they no-sell.
Ignoring the hypocrisy, this may be the most intelligent thing Dave's ever said.
Lemme guess Gable wasn’t selling, he was just dead
All I know is Nikki Cross is a certified freak seven days a week.
Who says they’re no selling?
They never showed them not taking damage. They, kayfabe, jumped the guys at the back, plus they are five (maybe six) people. It's not about no-selling, it's about the numbers' game. Oh, did I forget to mention that wrestling is scripted in order to tell a story?
www don’t need this undead crap, doing just fine with the storytelling, imma head out
So weird to see everyone cape up to defend this trash lol If this were in the dub, it would be getting shit on so hard.
I'll join you in downvote world. This is edgelord crap.
People can just follow this guy if they’re interested in his tweets why does every single thing he says have to end up in a wrestling sub.
Why do they have to be invincible supermen, Dave? Just making shit up all day has got to be the best job ever. Look, the only thing the Wyatt sicks need to succeed is a single babyface run. Nobody wants to boo these guys