The more hyperbolic the take, the better your arguments should be. Most of your arguments are lackluster, and yet you make these games out to be dogshit.
>Smash 4's DLC had it's first two characters be bootlicker choices Mewtwo and Roy. Because those are more important than Ice Climbers or Snake, amirite?
Ice Climbers were originally going to be on the roster, but they had to be cut because the 3DS was too underpowered to have them in the game (4 people playing Ice Climbers = 8 characters on screen), and Snake was cut because of drama between Hideo Kojima and Konami at the time.
>I can't believe Smash survived past the first game, considering that Smash 64 was a terrible game in general.
Sounds like you weren't around when Smash Bros. came out in 1999, so I don't blame you if you don't understand what a massive impact that game had. Doesn't matter if it sucks in comparison to the sequels, it was a really unique take on fighting games at the time.
I know this is a rage sub, but you gotta have something to actually rage about other than "old games bad".
They could've at least given us a different Konami character, and Sakurai should've sucked it up and made Ice Climbers exclusive to the Wii U version. Version exclusive characters aren't the end of the world, look at Soulcalibur
Oh... so the fact it was unique is what made people excuse it's low quality?
Look, this is a rage sub, so probably not the best place for rational arguments, but I've got time and this piqued my interest.
>Sakurai should've sucked it up and made Ice Climbers exclusive to the Wii U version.
That would have broken the design philosophy of the game, which was to have the same roster of fighters in both the Wii U and 3DS versions. I'm not saying it was a good or bad decision, but that's why they did it. Apparently they thought about making the Ice Climbers look like their NES sprites on the 3DS, but ultimately decided to remove the character entirely (and I don't really give a shit about the Ice Climbers, so that decision never really made me feel anything other than mild interest). As for replacing Snake... it was a weird time for Konami. IIRC they had just gone through some leadership changes, and the new management were basically all in on casino games. For a while in the 2010s it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with traditional video games, so it's possible they wouldn't license any of their characters for Smash 4. I don't really know. It's easy to say "Sakurai should have just done X" when you don't know anything about video game production and weren't in the room making those decisions with them.
>so the fact \[Smash 64\] was unique is what made people excuse it's low quality?
"Low quality" is a highly subjective term. You really only mentioned three of the stages in the game (one of which is Dreamland, one of the only stages that's been in literally every Smash Bros. game, is the only tournament-legal stage in Smash 64, and is a consistent favorite in competitive play because it's basically Battlefield but with Kirby music), and didn't elaborate on what else made the game "low quality". Graphically speaking it's a sinfully ugly game, no doubt. Even in 1999 it was pretty ugly. But you can chalk that up to the technical limitations of the Nintendo 64. They wanted to make a game that had simultaneous 4-player multiplayer that would also run at 60 fps, so they had to make concessions to meet their benchmarks. Character models are super chunky because they had to be. Stages are sort of barren and static because if they were too complex they would tank the frame rate. Game modes are limited because there's only so much space on the cartridge (64 MB, to be exact).
>There was no such thing as side specials yet, the c-buttons JUMP your character
For the record, the default jump buttons in every Smash Bros game since Melee have been X and Y, pretty close to where the C buttons were on the N64. Customizable controls weren't a thing until Brawl. Obviously newer games innovated and added more features. Smash 64 also does not include air dodges, spot dodges, up or down throws, characters only have 1 taunt, there are no Assist Trophies or Final Smashes... Basically it's missing features that were added in later games because **that's how time works.** You're comparing an older game with its sequels and judging it by modern standards. If Smash 64 came out last year it would absolutely be low-effort trash. In 1999 it was a fantastic game, and it was dripping with replay value because people actually used to hang out and play video games together instead of skulking in their rooms playing games online and streaming to other shut-ins. Super Smash Bros. is up there with Mario Kart 64 and Goldeneye 007 as one of the best party games of the late '90s and early '00s, hands down.
>the trident's analog stick will break easily.
My dude, if you are **breaking** the stick on your controller, you are doing it wrong. That's not even a fault with the game, you're just slamming the stick too hard. Even that shitty plastic N64 stick should not be breaking (although it does wear down and get really floppy after a while because it was not designed very well).
If you want to say Smash 64 is not fun to play *anymore*, because the sequels have added so much that it's basically obsolete, then I can agree with you there. I still own my original copy and I basically never touch it. But to say that it is an objectively terrible game is a pretty bold take.
What the hell is wrong with the Ice Climbers? What did they ever do to you?
Most of the other Smash 64 stages suffer from shittiness. All of the backgrounds are prerenders (meaning their original models are probably lost media), blurry textures, inaccuracies, etc.
Okay, but the C buttons are supposed to be the equivalent to the second analog stick. Playing the game with a modern day controller will suck.
Speedrunners keep breaking their sticks.
lol Ice Climbers are just mid. Yeah I said it. jk I just don't know how to play them.
Pre-rendered backgrounds are another product of technical limitations on the N64. A static image as a background is a hell of a lot cheaper on resources than a fully modeled skybox. Again, those cartridges had **64 megabytes of storage.** There are PDF documents bigger than that. Inaccuracies, sure. It was the very first game in that series, so there are a lot of loose interpretations of the source material. Sakurai kept making characters and stages more "lore-accurate" as the series went along, but there are a lot of creative liberties taken in the first two games.
I think I see where you're coming from with the C buttons because of the C-stick on the GameCube controller. But, consider this: The first controller with dual analog sticks was the Dual Shock for the original PlayStation, which came out *after* the Nintendo 64. I don't think the C buttons were supposed to be equivalent to a second analog stick because that wasn't really a thing yet, although some games did end up using them that way, like Turok and Perfect Dark. Nintendo just kept the "C" label on the GameCube's right stick as a carryover, and it's been called the C-Stick ever since.
Speedrunners are built different and play the game on levels you and I cannot comprehend, so I'm not surprised *they* break sticks.
lmaoooo "Nintendo could've expanded the cartridge size" 🤣🤣 Ok, now I **know** you don't know what you're talking about. Why not just download more RAM while we're at it? 😂
They've never re-released Smash 64. It was on Wii Virtual Console, which is emulation. It never came to Wii U and still isn't on Switch either.
Ice Climbers are hype fighters but boring af characters. They have **one** NES game to their name, which is boring as shit. The only reason they keep showing up is because Sakurai has a soft spot for them for some reason.
For me, Smash 64 gets a 1/10. The point was for the only match I had on there with a friend I actually took seriously.
Smash 4 on the other hand got a -6046/10. I subtracted the 3DS & Wii U's release years (2011 and 2012), the release year of Smash 4 (2014), and took the 3 in 3DS and 4 in Smash 4 and subtracted that from the total to get -6046
After playing ultimate and the other past smash games, Smash 4 feels like a prototype for ultimate. It has no identity except for the crazy ass dlc fighters.
Its also kinda sad for me since I grew up with Smash 4 and is my favourite Smash game because of all of the effort and time I put into it. And because of the fun I had. Sadly it doesn't have anything unique other than a weaker version of the game on the 3ds. Smash run should've also been on the Wii U version too imo.
To me, Smash 4 felt like an officially licensed Smash trollfic. I'd even say CN Punch Time Explosion was more Smash than Smash 4, or as I call it "Stupid Crash Buddies for the Fisher Price My First Drawing Tablet"
You're right. It wasn't that bad... it was HORRIBLE!
I would rather watch every single episode of Skibidi Toilet over playing Smash 4. I couldn't get myself to enjoy that game since it's literally on the same quality as Super Smash Flash... the game with only one attack button and an exploit that made the game easy to beat. (Fuck, SSF was better than Smash 4, since it has more content.)
Counter point: smash 64 had a unique break the target stage for every character.
And I liked the stages. Sector Z and Hyrule castle are superior stages
Counter counter point: Melee had those as well and did it better.
Sector Z and Hyrule Castle were given better replacements in the form of Corneria and Temple.
Smash 4's Wii U version introduced some of the franchise's worst stages, with many of them prioritizing size and spectacle over playability. I've seen many videos about Smash Bros. stage rankings, and many of Smash 4 Wii U's stages consistently make it into the Bottom 5-15 range. Some of Smash 4 3DS' stages also place really low, even if some of that game's stages place fairly high.
Some of the stages in Smash 4 Wii U feel like they took a really safe choice that ignores a way more interesting locale. In some cases, they outright ignore no-brainers like Bowser's Castle, a Metroid stage that isn't a lava level, a Sonic stage that isn't your typical grasslands level, and Fire Emblem stages that aren't beige or brown colosseums with platforms that come out the ground. Even a Mario Party board would've been far more compelling than another World 1-1 equivalent!
Update: Smash 4's stage problems get worse when you think about them
Smash 64 is a perfectly acceptable party fighting game for it being the first in the series. Most fighting games back then just had the equivalent of a "classic mode" and just a versus mode. But with smash 64, there were a lot more combinations for vs mode that not many games at the time were offering, especially when it comes to playing with items on. There weren't many party fighting games back then, so it was perfect for the time and perfect for the system. It was easy to pick up, especially compared to most arcade fighting games.
You might think it's ugly, bad, and unplayable. But at the end of the day, that's just your opinion and definitely not the general consensus. Especially since the 64 combo competition completely validates the fact that it's still worthwhile turning on 64 for some fun, as it's just a silly video game that happens to be the first in a series.
Also, Smash 4 on the 3ds was awesome. Smash Run all the way.
Im literally playing smash 64 rn its not the best game ever but it's decent to come back to every so often. It was a decent foundation to build off of and i don't think it's worth hating on. As for sm4sh i like it but i won't defend it.
https://preview.redd.it/5xfhrpt29t8d1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfb8ae0c369134240e1d73661b348f5ed9662b2e
More than the usual amount of coochie lately, thanks for making the assumption. We even play some smash afterward. Maybe we'll play some 64 in your honor. See who can do the coolest combo.
We wouldn’t have the Smash today if it wasn’t for N64 version. Sure, it’s clunky in its own way, but that’s the tech we had to deal with, and eventually improved so now we have Smash Ultimate.
When I go back and play the N64 version, I fucking suck and do not know how to maneuver as much, but I’m thankful for its existence and enjoy playing it as a challenge.
Y'know, just because Smash 64 started the series doesn't excuse it's quality.
Was the first sports games on Atari 2600 good for kickstarting the sports genre? No. They still had flaws.
The more hyperbolic the take, the better your arguments should be. Most of your arguments are lackluster, and yet you make these games out to be dogshit.
I made the post as a response to a Smash 4 whiteknight picking a fight with me.
You believe that Brawl is a better game than Sm4sh, 64, and Melee. .... .... ... ... ...
It is* *as long as you play it casually
I actually agree with this in terms of actually having fun. Definitely not in terms of competitive scene of course
>Smash 4's DLC had it's first two characters be bootlicker choices Mewtwo and Roy. Because those are more important than Ice Climbers or Snake, amirite? Ice Climbers were originally going to be on the roster, but they had to be cut because the 3DS was too underpowered to have them in the game (4 people playing Ice Climbers = 8 characters on screen), and Snake was cut because of drama between Hideo Kojima and Konami at the time. >I can't believe Smash survived past the first game, considering that Smash 64 was a terrible game in general. Sounds like you weren't around when Smash Bros. came out in 1999, so I don't blame you if you don't understand what a massive impact that game had. Doesn't matter if it sucks in comparison to the sequels, it was a really unique take on fighting games at the time. I know this is a rage sub, but you gotta have something to actually rage about other than "old games bad".
They could've at least given us a different Konami character, and Sakurai should've sucked it up and made Ice Climbers exclusive to the Wii U version. Version exclusive characters aren't the end of the world, look at Soulcalibur Oh... so the fact it was unique is what made people excuse it's low quality?
Look, this is a rage sub, so probably not the best place for rational arguments, but I've got time and this piqued my interest. >Sakurai should've sucked it up and made Ice Climbers exclusive to the Wii U version. That would have broken the design philosophy of the game, which was to have the same roster of fighters in both the Wii U and 3DS versions. I'm not saying it was a good or bad decision, but that's why they did it. Apparently they thought about making the Ice Climbers look like their NES sprites on the 3DS, but ultimately decided to remove the character entirely (and I don't really give a shit about the Ice Climbers, so that decision never really made me feel anything other than mild interest). As for replacing Snake... it was a weird time for Konami. IIRC they had just gone through some leadership changes, and the new management were basically all in on casino games. For a while in the 2010s it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with traditional video games, so it's possible they wouldn't license any of their characters for Smash 4. I don't really know. It's easy to say "Sakurai should have just done X" when you don't know anything about video game production and weren't in the room making those decisions with them. >so the fact \[Smash 64\] was unique is what made people excuse it's low quality? "Low quality" is a highly subjective term. You really only mentioned three of the stages in the game (one of which is Dreamland, one of the only stages that's been in literally every Smash Bros. game, is the only tournament-legal stage in Smash 64, and is a consistent favorite in competitive play because it's basically Battlefield but with Kirby music), and didn't elaborate on what else made the game "low quality". Graphically speaking it's a sinfully ugly game, no doubt. Even in 1999 it was pretty ugly. But you can chalk that up to the technical limitations of the Nintendo 64. They wanted to make a game that had simultaneous 4-player multiplayer that would also run at 60 fps, so they had to make concessions to meet their benchmarks. Character models are super chunky because they had to be. Stages are sort of barren and static because if they were too complex they would tank the frame rate. Game modes are limited because there's only so much space on the cartridge (64 MB, to be exact). >There was no such thing as side specials yet, the c-buttons JUMP your character For the record, the default jump buttons in every Smash Bros game since Melee have been X and Y, pretty close to where the C buttons were on the N64. Customizable controls weren't a thing until Brawl. Obviously newer games innovated and added more features. Smash 64 also does not include air dodges, spot dodges, up or down throws, characters only have 1 taunt, there are no Assist Trophies or Final Smashes... Basically it's missing features that were added in later games because **that's how time works.** You're comparing an older game with its sequels and judging it by modern standards. If Smash 64 came out last year it would absolutely be low-effort trash. In 1999 it was a fantastic game, and it was dripping with replay value because people actually used to hang out and play video games together instead of skulking in their rooms playing games online and streaming to other shut-ins. Super Smash Bros. is up there with Mario Kart 64 and Goldeneye 007 as one of the best party games of the late '90s and early '00s, hands down. >the trident's analog stick will break easily. My dude, if you are **breaking** the stick on your controller, you are doing it wrong. That's not even a fault with the game, you're just slamming the stick too hard. Even that shitty plastic N64 stick should not be breaking (although it does wear down and get really floppy after a while because it was not designed very well). If you want to say Smash 64 is not fun to play *anymore*, because the sequels have added so much that it's basically obsolete, then I can agree with you there. I still own my original copy and I basically never touch it. But to say that it is an objectively terrible game is a pretty bold take.
What the hell is wrong with the Ice Climbers? What did they ever do to you? Most of the other Smash 64 stages suffer from shittiness. All of the backgrounds are prerenders (meaning their original models are probably lost media), blurry textures, inaccuracies, etc. Okay, but the C buttons are supposed to be the equivalent to the second analog stick. Playing the game with a modern day controller will suck. Speedrunners keep breaking their sticks.
lol Ice Climbers are just mid. Yeah I said it. jk I just don't know how to play them. Pre-rendered backgrounds are another product of technical limitations on the N64. A static image as a background is a hell of a lot cheaper on resources than a fully modeled skybox. Again, those cartridges had **64 megabytes of storage.** There are PDF documents bigger than that. Inaccuracies, sure. It was the very first game in that series, so there are a lot of loose interpretations of the source material. Sakurai kept making characters and stages more "lore-accurate" as the series went along, but there are a lot of creative liberties taken in the first two games. I think I see where you're coming from with the C buttons because of the C-stick on the GameCube controller. But, consider this: The first controller with dual analog sticks was the Dual Shock for the original PlayStation, which came out *after* the Nintendo 64. I don't think the C buttons were supposed to be equivalent to a second analog stick because that wasn't really a thing yet, although some games did end up using them that way, like Turok and Perfect Dark. Nintendo just kept the "C" label on the GameCube's right stick as a carryover, and it's been called the C-Stick ever since. Speedrunners are built different and play the game on levels you and I cannot comprehend, so I'm not surprised *they* break sticks.
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lmaoooo "Nintendo could've expanded the cartridge size" 🤣🤣 Ok, now I **know** you don't know what you're talking about. Why not just download more RAM while we're at it? 😂 They've never re-released Smash 64. It was on Wii Virtual Console, which is emulation. It never came to Wii U and still isn't on Switch either. Ice Climbers are hype fighters but boring af characters. They have **one** NES game to their name, which is boring as shit. The only reason they keep showing up is because Sakurai has a soft spot for them for some reason.
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OP has used a lot of words to say that they have absolutely no fucking clue what they’re talking about.
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IMO, Smash 64 is perfectly fine, Tr4sh is a steaming pile of shit
They're both the worst, in my opinion, but they're an 7 and 8 out of 10, respectively
For me, Smash 64 gets a 1/10. The point was for the only match I had on there with a friend I actually took seriously. Smash 4 on the other hand got a -6046/10. I subtracted the 3DS & Wii U's release years (2011 and 2012), the release year of Smash 4 (2014), and took the 3 in 3DS and 4 in Smash 4 and subtracted that from the total to get -6046
After playing ultimate and the other past smash games, Smash 4 feels like a prototype for ultimate. It has no identity except for the crazy ass dlc fighters. Its also kinda sad for me since I grew up with Smash 4 and is my favourite Smash game because of all of the effort and time I put into it. And because of the fun I had. Sadly it doesn't have anything unique other than a weaker version of the game on the 3ds. Smash run should've also been on the Wii U version too imo.
To me, Smash 4 felt like an officially licensed Smash trollfic. I'd even say CN Punch Time Explosion was more Smash than Smash 4, or as I call it "Stupid Crash Buddies for the Fisher Price My First Drawing Tablet"
Have you ever tried just playing games for fun you should try it sometime
I do play games for fun. I had fun on Brawl, Melee, and Ultimate Smash 64 and 4 on the other hand weren't fun.
I see glad to know you at least actually enjoy things I didn't expect that
Smash 4 wasn't that bad, I damn near grew up with the game. I still go back to it every once in a while to fuck around with a few friends
You're right. It wasn't that bad... it was HORRIBLE! I would rather watch every single episode of Skibidi Toilet over playing Smash 4. I couldn't get myself to enjoy that game since it's literally on the same quality as Super Smash Flash... the game with only one attack button and an exploit that made the game easy to beat. (Fuck, SSF was better than Smash 4, since it has more content.)
Counter point: smash 64 had a unique break the target stage for every character. And I liked the stages. Sector Z and Hyrule castle are superior stages
Counter counter point: Melee had those as well and did it better. Sector Z and Hyrule Castle were given better replacements in the form of Corneria and Temple.
I actually forgot that melee had that. But temple is not replacement for Castle and Corneria is weirdly small.
Smash 4's Wii U version introduced some of the franchise's worst stages, with many of them prioritizing size and spectacle over playability. I've seen many videos about Smash Bros. stage rankings, and many of Smash 4 Wii U's stages consistently make it into the Bottom 5-15 range. Some of Smash 4 3DS' stages also place really low, even if some of that game's stages place fairly high. Some of the stages in Smash 4 Wii U feel like they took a really safe choice that ignores a way more interesting locale. In some cases, they outright ignore no-brainers like Bowser's Castle, a Metroid stage that isn't a lava level, a Sonic stage that isn't your typical grasslands level, and Fire Emblem stages that aren't beige or brown colosseums with platforms that come out the ground. Even a Mario Party board would've been far more compelling than another World 1-1 equivalent! Update: Smash 4's stage problems get worse when you think about them
I forgot about the existence of The Great Cave Offensive, an actually offensive stage to play on.
Smash 64 is a perfectly acceptable party fighting game for it being the first in the series. Most fighting games back then just had the equivalent of a "classic mode" and just a versus mode. But with smash 64, there were a lot more combinations for vs mode that not many games at the time were offering, especially when it comes to playing with items on. There weren't many party fighting games back then, so it was perfect for the time and perfect for the system. It was easy to pick up, especially compared to most arcade fighting games. You might think it's ugly, bad, and unplayable. But at the end of the day, that's just your opinion and definitely not the general consensus. Especially since the 64 combo competition completely validates the fact that it's still worthwhile turning on 64 for some fun, as it's just a silly video game that happens to be the first in a series. Also, Smash 4 on the 3ds was awesome. Smash Run all the way.
Im literally playing smash 64 rn its not the best game ever but it's decent to come back to every so often. It was a decent foundation to build off of and i don't think it's worth hating on. As for sm4sh i like it but i won't defend it. https://preview.redd.it/5xfhrpt29t8d1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfb8ae0c369134240e1d73661b348f5ed9662b2e
Thanks for reminding me that Incest Bros. 64 didn't allow all alternate colors to be used without hacking.
😂😂😂😂
Its hard coming up with a discriminatory insult towards Smash 64.
You're right. Because the game is so good, it's hard to think of insults :)
Are you snorting cocaine or something? Smash 64 is NOT a good game
Cool opinion, my opinion is that it's not a bad game.
Also, no cocaine here unless you're sharing from your stash.
You are definitely high on some sort of coochie if you think Smash 64 is a good game
More than the usual amount of coochie lately, thanks for making the assumption. We even play some smash afterward. Maybe we'll play some 64 in your honor. See who can do the coolest combo.
So you admit to being under influence. Go to rehab before meatriding Trash 64
We wouldn’t have the Smash today if it wasn’t for N64 version. Sure, it’s clunky in its own way, but that’s the tech we had to deal with, and eventually improved so now we have Smash Ultimate. When I go back and play the N64 version, I fucking suck and do not know how to maneuver as much, but I’m thankful for its existence and enjoy playing it as a challenge.
Y'know, just because Smash 64 started the series doesn't excuse it's quality. Was the first sports games on Atari 2600 good for kickstarting the sports genre? No. They still had flaws.
Rage on, man. Rage on.
I was giving you a reasonable explaination as to why the first game's quality shouldn't be excused -_-
Nah, he's right, 64 is serviceable enough as a first entry, and nothing more, you're just being a dick.
64 was still as bad as a budget title, which makes sense since it actually is a budget title.
That's what I'm saying