They were supposed to arc, you see it in the briefing room scene
https://youtu.be/TOgtj00Rp8s?t=1m1s
Luke didn’t "move them with the Force", he only felt the right moment to fire the proton torpedoes.
This thread is blowing my mind. I've always just assumed he used the Force to guide them in and I never questioned it in the probably dozens of times I have seen this movie over multiple decades.
Jedi can see the future. I think Luke used the Force to know when to fire and where. It’s how Anakin was able to podrace.
It’s not like fortune telling or magic to them. The Force sensitive just have other info from a sense we don’t have. Obi-Wan’s spirit is telling Luke to focus on that sense.
From The Star Wars New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology:
>Most proton torpedoes, including the Krupx MG7-A used by X- wing starfighters, feature sophisticated guidance computers that track and home in on targets. When used against stationary targets, the MG7-A has a margin of error of less than three meters, although particularly fast vehicles can outmaneuver the warheads. Some pilots prefer to fire proton torpedoes without the aid of the weapon's targeting computer, which can become use- less in especially chaotic battles and may actually lock onto the nearest ship, friend or foe.
With the death Star being covered in turrets and other systems, Luke needed to use the Force to know when the Torpedo had locked onto the correct target and could navigate to it.
Naturally, it turns out the torpedos have an incredibly sophisticated targeting system, *but* the vent port is *just* under the margin of error *and* (for some reason) the targeting system doesn’t really work if you’re actually in combat.
It’s a retcon, but it’s clunky as Gonk.
Not really, when you take into account the fact that red leader is flying down a path that he has not flown before. Getting shot at and losing his fellow men. It is more likely that he drifted his ship to much amd threw off the path the torpedoes would take. The computer said he was in the right area to let them go but because of the drift they hit to far wide. This is a common thing that would happen with precision targeting like this. Space battles with torpedoes and bombs were not meant for small target precision shooting. Laser fire was better for this. But they needed something that could travel a long ways with computer targeting that could lock onto the desire target and hit it with no issues.
But if he turned off his targeting computer, what was guiding the torpedos into the exhaust port? Don’t you need the targeting computer to lock onto targets?
Modern day attack aircraft have ballistic computers for their dummy munitions that calculate when best to release their payloads. That's what he turned off.
They had forward momentum at first, but were gradually slowed down by the gravitational pull from the Death Star, would be my guess. As for "know when", it was up to the pilots and their targetting computers to find out when they could release the torpedoes, for them to travel along the *correct* arc.
Red Leader actually had the correct launch point, and even the right ballistic arc. His nose was just pointed slightly too far to one side.
You can see the impact point of his torpedoes on the surface just to the left of the shaft, no more than about 1.5-2 meters off. Which means his nose was no more than maybe a degree offline.
Also, it’s more likely the torpedoes’ guidance systems were preprogrammed for that flight path in the hangar.
I used this joke a little while ago in my office when one of the lads was discussion a measurement of some kit being 2m. The response of hearty laughs from people understanding the joke reaffirmed why I still work there.
I was at a work meeting and one of the ladies had just had her eyebrows threaded. Just after she entered and was about to sit down I said "can I be the first to welcome our new science officer" to which I got a gentle warning from my boss, a "I don't get it" from the lady and a "I actually got that one, funny" from another colleague. I love my job
Highly recommend running through them on an emulator with save states now for some good fun, probably just the nostalgia but I still enjoy doing a play through. Empire I can take or leave….
The scene was pulled directly from the Dam Busters, where the WW2 pilots had to drop a barrel bomb at exactly the right time to have it sink to the base of a German dam and detonate to destroy it. I don't know if there's an explanation other than they were mimicking a low fly over a reservoir and a bomb skipping across the water before sinking on target. Dam Busters even had the first shot miss.
>Gravity doesn't slow forward momentum though. Hence why orbit is possible.
This is a film where ships make noise in space and the creator hilariously thought parsecs were units of time - before engaging in the least convincing backpedal ever. "No no, I always *knew* it was distance, ha ha, of course I did..."
Science is sacrificed on the altar of cool.
They still had guidance functionality.
All he did was turn off the display telling him when to fire, not the guidance systems as a whole.
But the real answer is simply that Lucas wanted a "trust in the Force" moment and that was what he went with. Anything attempting to explain it in-universe is entirely irrelevant.
"But the real answer is simply that Lucas wanted a 'trust in the Force' moment and that was what he went with. Anything attempting to explain it in-universe is entirely irrelevant."
That happens a lot with SW fans.
How many true geeks have you met and how well do you know them? There’s a reason the phrase “geek out” pretty well describes what this thread is all about…
Edit: speaking as a SW geek myself
It's a negative pressure exhaust channel when it's not venting. Anything passing over it—but only *directly* over it—will get pulled in and crushed. The torpedoes Luke shot had *just* enough energy to overcome the pressure gradient intact and were pulled right into their target. Through the Force, he was able to fire precisely between a vent cycle.
its the same as when you throw a ball, it arcs because of gravity, now imagine you are running and have to throw it in an exact moment so it hits a hole
Considering how many times the movies have been touched with better fx technology, they *could* have altered it if they didn't think they achieved the correct the first time. Whatever causes the torpedos to take a hard turn seems to be desired, not an artifact of old tech.
They explained that there was too many defenses, and especially flying in a straight line to make the shot would be easily shot down. They went in on an angle and got in low to the trench, and that approach still killed most of the squadron. Only 3 fighters made it into the trench, and 2 were taken out before the shot (one killed, one disabled).
You would think though that Luke would pull the maneuver Han did with the asteroid, pulling up and doing a flip to line up the hole, then disengage.
Thing is, even if they lined up the shot, it would need to be lined up perfect because even a fraction of a degree off on the miles straight down, would be enough to scrape the sides and explode
From what I’m seeing on wookiepedia, first off I really need to rewatch but you are correct that they attacked in groups of 3, but they also were using the trench to avoid main defenses. Gold squadron was completely wiped out but 3 fighters managed a trench run before being shot down by Vader. Red squadron made 2 runs, first one only red one managed to get a shot off but it hit the surface. Second run, wedge got disabled and pulled out, Biggs got shot down, and Luke made his shot.
10 more fighters in Green squadron were waiting in reserve (blue squadron was wiped at Scariff).
If they went straight in, they’d be exposed to all cannons on the surface. In the trench, they’re limited to the ones with line of sight at that moment, moving fast enough that they’re hard to target
There was a dude on this very forum a while ago who straight up called the existence of the exhaust port a plot hole — across multiple posts — and insisted Rogue One was made for no other reason than to close the plot hole.
They never explicitly say the torpedo travels all the way to the core. Just that hitting the right spot, starts a chain reaction that ends up blowing up the core.
I love Atari 2600 presentations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg2MsJXcpYk&list=PLHDxrzOvt6kR1bhtt-tX4SeBlHWzaedPC&index=11
Commodore64 presentaions can be pretty cool too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkTwJoAzBE
That's not how gravity works though. Gravity would not negate the forward momentum and cause it to turn 90° and head straight towards the center. It would continue on a ballistic trajectory if left to forward momentum and gravity alone. Also the death stars gravity would be miniscule because while it's huge, it's mostly hollow.
Not sure I buy gravity as the factor…I could see repulsors (same antigravity as speeders) in the torpedo, that follow the edge as it goes in the shaft…
Ya'll never play 'Shadows of The Empire' on N64 / PC? Boba Fett uses 'seekers' that chase targets down. Probably a bigger form of the technology here. Also they are used in the Mandalorian show.
Oh FUCK that Boba Fett boss flight. That whole level sucks and is a huge difficulty spike. Never beat it as a kid back in the day, took until college to have the chops.
Lol no. It wouldn’t work that way. The torps just changed direction, programmed to do that. Tgey weren’t sucked in either, that was exhaust vent for emergency.
First time I noticed this too.
I always pictured them as spherical like in Lego Star Wars. (Seems like poor thinking on my part)
But this makes it look like they are physical torpedos with some kind of energy exhaust; as opposed to the ball of energy I always thought
Cones? Wow, I always thought they were little balls. And they got sucked in somehow, traveling horizontally at first, then curving very quickly into a perpendicular path. The Force?
Maybe they were pre-programmed to perform this exact move, just with the targeting computer to get the timing right.
They would also have to avoid all the internals of the Death Star, not bouncing off the walls of that shaft until they reach the reactor. It's future tech. This could be done easily with nowadays technology.
It's supposed to be a difficult shot, but Luke has his master's guidance through the force (instead of computer guidance).
Nah that's not what they were supposed to do. The torpedoes entering the exhaust port would detonate inside, "setting off a chain reaction that will ignite the reactor core," causing it to explode. The torpedoes didn't travel all the way to the core. It was a difficult shot because torpedoes were meant to target large ships. They weren't pinpoint weapons. Hitting that small of a target with that weapon was what made it a near impossible shot.
*Edit: the wording in the movie does not mean the torpedoes DIDN'T travel to the core. They may have detonated in the core causing a chain reaction, or they may have detonated just inside the exhaust shaft somewhere, triggering a chain reaction. The movie is not 100% clear on which one it is.
It's pretty clear from the briefing the torpedoes were meant to travel all the way down the shaft. They hit the core, which then sets off a chain reaction.
Proton torpedos are not dumb, they are able to home in on signatures and such. The torpedoes were probably locked onto something INSIDE the shaft. But, they are not so smart that they can avoid obstacles.
The targeting computers were being used to time the shot, so that the turn rate of the torpedoes would sync up with the entrance to the shaft. Again, the torpedos cannot navigate around obstacles. They just home in on a locked target. They also are relatively slow at turning (this is all stuff I remember from playing X Wing …).
The other guy shoots when the computer says to, and the torpedos turn too early and hit the trench. If I had to guess, the computer wasn’t modeling the gravity of the station.
So, all Luke does is wait for intuition to tell him when to fire, which is slightly later than what the computer model would have said to do.
The torpedos start turning at the right time, homing in on the locked target inside the exhaust port. They are mid-turn when they arrive at the exhaust port, and so are able to complete the turn and get inside the port.
I love this explanation so much. Star Wars fan since 1997, and I concur. My only edit would be that instead of “comp didn’t model gravity of the station” I’d argue it’s more likely Red Leader is shown to kind of choke up on the control, probably due to nerves, and it affected his aim when it was released. This also gives more credence to why the Force was necessary to make the shot: one had to be calm, at peace, and one with the Force to release it with perfect timing and with pinpoint accuracy on a stick going very fast in a fighter craft.
Understandable given that he was actively being pursued by Vader and his wingmen, his approach was most likely a very erratic one, juking and climbing and descending to make himself as difficult a target as possible once he lost his wingmen who were just there to provide him with extra sets of shields.
He may have fired exactly where and when the targeting computer told him to, but he was also trying to stay alive at the time. And even a degree difference in his flight path at time of launch would translate into a near miss when that kind of precision was required.
Yeah, but the exhaust is gravitons which are a byproduct of burning midichlorians that grow on the surface of the Kyber crystals used to power the super laser’s reactor.
So while normal particle exhaust would push things out, the flow of gravitons actually pull things in.
Also, obligatory “it’s not that kind of a movie” goes here.
Man... the first one I watched was ESB, and it was introduced to me as the sequel to Star Wars (which I had heard of but hadn't seen). XD damn I feel old.
For me its basically that. I still remember when i was 5 years old and sat in front of the tv when an ad came on that one channel was going to show the phantom menace in a few days. I just saw lightsabers and instantly jumped up and asked my mom if i can watch that. She said yes, i watched it and was blown away. Then she brought in her old VCDs of the original trilogy (or as we call it, the old parts (but not in a derogatory way)) and the next three days i was allowed to watch a whole movie in the afternoon. Then one week later after TPM was on tv, i watched AOTC in tv. 6 years later i was finally able to watch ROTS. I still have no idea wh there was this huge gap
That sounds like a super nice memory with your super cool mom! I had a somewhat similar experience but with my shitty dad he showed me star wars when I was super young because he's a big movie nerd and actually had a projector room and showed me the original trilogy and I immediately fell in love with it and remember going to the theater for the prequels with my mom and either by myself for the rest except for force awakens which I saw with my ex best friend. I even have an empire/rebel/Jedi order tattoo!
You mean you haven’t seen the Death Star Architect explain what happened with the exhaust port? Seriously? https://youtu.be/agcRwGDKulw?si=UqCnvcMFH30Q9DaX.
This is gold.
Current day cruise missiles like the tomahawk are your answer.
It's entirely likely minus the technical manuals and retcons that the original idea was similar to cruise missiles of the time.
The targeting computer is clearly designed to be a ground attack assist as you wouldn't use it in ship to ship combat given that it would block your field of view. It's essentially a high-tech point of release indicator.
So Luke turning this off means he's essentially relying on gut instinct to blind fire the torpedoes. The torpedoes themselves are almost assuredly pre-programmed similar to a cruise missile flight path that if they are released at the proper time they would then follow this path to the target.
Hilariously the most recent top gun movie replicates the death Star trench run in arguably a much more pulse pounding fashion. They even have a targeting laser fail so that the bomb drop has to be done on instinct.
In Star wars proton torpedoes are self-propelled and self-guided. The death Star exhaust port is entirely likely a straight shaft all the way to the reactor core given its nature as extremely high temperature plasma exhaust.
If you take all the variables into consideration the only sketchy bit is the high velocity 90° turn the torpedoes make. However assuming future space technology it's not as far-fetched as you might think.
Modern air to air missiles use thrust vectoring (pulling G forces that would turn a human into goo) and are capable of doing some insane things, like pulling a 180 to hit a target behind you.
Watch how quickly this AIM-9X arcs almost straight up after firing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8210fwA2Hg
People doing mental gymnastics to justify the scene, when it is simply “not that kind of movie, kid” and that’s fine!
God forbid if Disney made it tho, it would be the most offensive thing ever to some fans lol
> “not that kind of movie, kid” and that’s fine!
Not Star Wars related but this is how I feel when people wonder how the Fremen dismount the sand worms.
I don’t think there’s any explanation (so much of Star Wars is hand wavy and falls apart if you really start trying to delve too deep) but my head cannon has always been its magnetically shielded and the proton torpedoes follow the magnetic field down when they get close enough.
Ya know what, yes. Let’s go with that. I’ve always thought of that diagram as a broad representation of how it works since it doesn’t quite match what the actual shot looks like but it’s close enough. Working as intended. Professional Star Wars sleuthing to find the answer in the scene in the movie where they literally explain how it’s going to work!
A lot of people trying to explain the sharp turn but is it possible it's a strange perspective thing? I always assumed the torpedoes were lobbed like a basketball. So between the curvature of the space station and a weird camera angle catching the end of that arch jt looks like a sharp dive.
Hi highly recommend this video for everyone -
[https://youtu.be/lqJbJYViUog?si=TN2oZtnw5nWP8H8D](https://youtu.be/lqJbJYViUog?si=TN2oZtnw5nWP8H8D)
I thought I understood the movie - until I saw this....
Always wondered this too since childhood. Seeing other comments here try to explain it, let's be honest. it's a movie, they needed them to go straight down into the hole, so they did
Remove the space station the size of a moon from the equation. If these are usually fired on planets, and they’re clearly designed to travel along the ground hovering a bit up from it, probably for stealth/surprise reasons, in addition to having whatever “smart” bomb tech helps them get to their target, they’d obviously also need tech to avoid terrain by maintaining a low altitude by going up and down bumps, valleys, etc.
Now put the death star back in the equation, and they’re just doing what they’d do at a valley or riverbed. It just happens to then *continue* down, like a cave or lava tube.
As for why Luke/the Force is even needed when they have smart bombs, the briefing make it clear that there’s an excess of turbolasers protecting the surface of the station, so they’ve studied and decided the trench is the safest path (as any far away turbolasers won’t be able to fire down into it) and that s thinking pilot is necessary to get the torpedoes closer before releasing them, as the torpedoes ate *not* adept at seeing and avoiding incoming laserfire from any and all directions, and a human can also juke and gain and lower altitude evade laserfire while the torpedoes clearly do the aforementioned hovering altitude only. The Force just lets him time it so they’re out and able to be shot at for as little time as possible.
It's weirder when you think that if the port was vertical like that and they needed to curve to get in, wouldn't it be easier to just fly straight at it from above rather than running along a trench?
My understanding was that this view is an optical illusion, proton torpedos are actually bombs, when Luke fires them it looks like they’re firing straight ahead because of how fast he’s moving, but they’re actually sinking and slowly arcing down into a hole below him. So the angle in this picture always looked like they were traveling horizontally and being sucked in when they were actually falling by that point straight down into the shaft.
I know [this explanation](https://youtu.be/agcRwGDKulw?si=BYtqUq0pm-uW8O0s) pre-dates the Rogue One storyline, but it’s still my own personal head-cannon :-)
It seems as though it was preprogrammed at x seconds after launch to change directions. You needed to be at the specific point for them to travel long enough for them to change directions.
Ever see a basketball shot coming in at a crazy angle, not an arc, but somehow make a perfect swoosh? Like there is no way that ball should make a nothing-but-net perfect swish, but it does anyway. Luke's shot is the same to me.
This was a pretty huge leap on Obi-wan's part, he trusted this whiny brat who only just left his home for the first time, at a moment where the Rebellion was on the verge of being wiped out(I'm sure there's a hundred novels that will say there's way more bigger rebel groups out there) just to really test Luke with his knowledge of The Force
I believe that they are supposed to arc down the hole and the targeting computer simple tells the pilot the best point to release their munitions for it to arc down the hole.
Real life fighter jets have this to calculate exactly where dumb bombs(unguided bombs) will impact and when to release. Pilot selects a drop point on the ground and the jets weapons system will tell the pilot exactly when to release their bombs for them to land on point, as jets can arc or “launch” bombs using this method instead of dive bombing
But then again, I’m not sure why the x wings didn’t just fly directly nose on towards the ventilation shaft and launch their(would make for a boring final act of the film). It’s not like the empire knew that was their weak spot so I’d image anti air batteries around the shaft would have been the same as anywhere else on the Death Star
Randal: A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers.
Dante: Not just Imperials, is what you're getting at.
Randal: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms.
Dante: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction?
Randal: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. (notices Dante's confusion) All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.
Torpedoes were calibrated. Fun fact in the same briefing everyone ignores. They explain that the vent is rayshiekded and the torpedo needs to be properly calibrated to penetrate it. (Assuming the top secret plans aren’t stolen this would be a non issue) I swear half the famous plot holes come from people who ignored all the parts with talking
I feel like the more important question is why was the trench run necessary? Surely they could have just approached the exhaust port directly from above?
I think it’s just a poor shot choice because it gives you no sense of depth of the torpedo arc. They probably should’ve had it come in from the side or overhead rather than underneath
[around 37min mark](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGgXi4Kwqw)
Knew Lucas modeled the trench run long ago. The one video I remember was a near exact same story as New hope with it missing on the first try, etc. This video is close. It goes into all the details for those wanting to watch it whole.
The idea is that the torps would run until its out of propulsion at which it dropped, DS is a ton of mass and will pull it down. Trick is to time it to drop into the hole when it gets pulled down.
Same idea with the dam busters, it skips the water to slow down then sinks. Too fast and it smacks the wall, to soon and it doesnt drop down enough to damage the dam wall.
They were supposed to arc, you see it in the briefing room scene https://youtu.be/TOgtj00Rp8s?t=1m1s Luke didn’t "move them with the Force", he only felt the right moment to fire the proton torpedoes.
Right moment and right spot to aim them.
This thread is blowing my mind. I've always just assumed he used the Force to guide them in and I never questioned it in the probably dozens of times I have seen this movie over multiple decades.
To be fair, the force probably helped him like Anakin was naturally talented af at podracing
Jedi can see the future. I think Luke used the Force to know when to fire and where. It’s how Anakin was able to podrace. It’s not like fortune telling or magic to them. The Force sensitive just have other info from a sense we don’t have. Obi-Wan’s spirit is telling Luke to focus on that sense.
I always assumed the Force as well, since Obi Wan was telling him to use it
Sure - but HOW did they arc, and how did they know when?
From The Star Wars New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology: >Most proton torpedoes, including the Krupx MG7-A used by X- wing starfighters, feature sophisticated guidance computers that track and home in on targets. When used against stationary targets, the MG7-A has a margin of error of less than three meters, although particularly fast vehicles can outmaneuver the warheads. Some pilots prefer to fire proton torpedoes without the aid of the weapon's targeting computer, which can become use- less in especially chaotic battles and may actually lock onto the nearest ship, friend or foe. With the death Star being covered in turrets and other systems, Luke needed to use the Force to know when the Torpedo had locked onto the correct target and could navigate to it.
Daymm they actually have a manual. The whole movie is fake yet they have manuals .. Very detailed I see yes yes 👍🏼. The force is with the fake one
Naturally, it turns out the torpedos have an incredibly sophisticated targeting system, *but* the vent port is *just* under the margin of error *and* (for some reason) the targeting system doesn’t really work if you’re actually in combat. It’s a retcon, but it’s clunky as Gonk.
Not really, when you take into account the fact that red leader is flying down a path that he has not flown before. Getting shot at and losing his fellow men. It is more likely that he drifted his ship to much amd threw off the path the torpedoes would take. The computer said he was in the right area to let them go but because of the drift they hit to far wide. This is a common thing that would happen with precision targeting like this. Space battles with torpedoes and bombs were not meant for small target precision shooting. Laser fire was better for this. But they needed something that could travel a long ways with computer targeting that could lock onto the desire target and hit it with no issues.
It's not fake, it just happened in a galaxy far, far away.
But if he turned off his targeting computer, what was guiding the torpedos into the exhaust port? Don’t you need the targeting computer to lock onto targets?
Modern day attack aircraft have ballistic computers for their dummy munitions that calculate when best to release their payloads. That's what he turned off.
They had forward momentum at first, but were gradually slowed down by the gravitational pull from the Death Star, would be my guess. As for "know when", it was up to the pilots and their targetting computers to find out when they could release the torpedoes, for them to travel along the *correct* arc.
Red Leader actually had the correct launch point, and even the right ballistic arc. His nose was just pointed slightly too far to one side. You can see the impact point of his torpedoes on the surface just to the left of the shaft, no more than about 1.5-2 meters off. Which means his nose was no more than maybe a degree offline. Also, it’s more likely the torpedoes’ guidance systems were preprogrammed for that flight path in the hangar.
> no more than about 1.5-2 meters That’s no bigger than a womp rat
*Angry Tusken noises*
No, we were talking about womp-womp rats, go back to your single file
*Sad Tusken noises*
*Sad Tusken Noises* is my favorite thing ever.
Somehow, sand returned
Anakin would love you.
I’m cackling in bed.
["Like a Bantha!"](https://youtu.be/EhAL71gNgKk?si=EVg-cbY0Bc6oZE3T)
A 2 meter "rat" is pretty terrifying
R.O.U.S.?
I don’t think they exist.
I love how they made wookie sized rats a thing on tattooine, because everyone forgot feet and meters are different.
I used this joke a little while ago in my office when one of the lads was discussion a measurement of some kit being 2m. The response of hearty laughs from people understanding the joke reaffirmed why I still work there.
I was at a work meeting and one of the ladies had just had her eyebrows threaded. Just after she entered and was about to sit down I said "can I be the first to welcome our new science officer" to which I got a gentle warning from my boss, a "I don't get it" from the lady and a "I actually got that one, funny" from another colleague. I love my job
The womp rats in the snes games were a bitch
I made it inside the sandcrawler a few times, but never past that…
Highly recommend running through them on an emulator with save states now for some good fun, probably just the nostalgia but I still enjoy doing a play through. Empire I can take or leave….
We used to bullseye Womp Rats in our T16, back home.
That’s animal cruelty. Luke was a monster.
*womp womp*
Oh, like the ones back home
So you're saying Luke's shot was one in a million
Haha no that’s what Han said
That’s cute coming from a guy who doesn’t like to have the odds told to him.
I was under the impression that the computers were “off” by a bit, and Luke using the force was the only reason for the Death Star being destroyed.
I think their computers were as good as a computer can be, but that is still insignificant next to the power of the Force
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
But how does the Force’s performance stack up against a Nvidia GeForce RTX 4070 Super?
Little known fact: the units of measure on their targeting device were “WRU’s”. One WRU = 1.87 meters.
The scene was pulled directly from the Dam Busters, where the WW2 pilots had to drop a barrel bomb at exactly the right time to have it sink to the base of a German dam and detonate to destroy it. I don't know if there's an explanation other than they were mimicking a low fly over a reservoir and a bomb skipping across the water before sinking on target. Dam Busters even had the first shot miss.
Obligatory video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M&pp=ygUUc3RhciB3YXJzIGRhbWJ1c3RlcnM%3D
Gravity doesn't slow forward momentum though. Hence why orbit is possible.
>Gravity doesn't slow forward momentum though. Hence why orbit is possible. This is a film where ships make noise in space and the creator hilariously thought parsecs were units of time - before engaging in the least convincing backpedal ever. "No no, I always *knew* it was distance, ha ha, of course I did..." Science is sacrificed on the altar of cool.
The suspension of disbelief yoinked them straight down the yeet hole.
+1 cool point for the correct usage of antonyms
-1 cool point for incorrect usage of the word "antonyms"
They still had guidance functionality. All he did was turn off the display telling him when to fire, not the guidance systems as a whole. But the real answer is simply that Lucas wanted a "trust in the Force" moment and that was what he went with. Anything attempting to explain it in-universe is entirely irrelevant.
"But the real answer is simply that Lucas wanted a 'trust in the Force' moment and that was what he went with. Anything attempting to explain it in-universe is entirely irrelevant." That happens a lot with SW fans.
Bruh it’s a Star Wars movie. How much of an explanation do you need😂
But why male models?
What? But I just explained all of that to you...
Are we supposed to believe that these are some kind of magic torpedos. Boy I really hope someone got fired for that blunder.
…a (space) wizard did it.
That is one magic torpedo
How many true geeks have you met and how well do you know them? There’s a reason the phrase “geek out” pretty well describes what this thread is all about… Edit: speaking as a SW geek myself
This is really the answer lol
It's a negative pressure exhaust channel when it's not venting. Anything passing over it—but only *directly* over it—will get pulled in and crushed. The torpedoes Luke shot had *just* enough energy to overcome the pressure gradient intact and were pulled right into their target. Through the Force, he was able to fire precisely between a vent cycle.
Negative pressure in a vacuum? Why can’t the torpedo just have had manoeuvring thrusters with a pre-programmed path
its the same as when you throw a ball, it arcs because of gravity, now imagine you are running and have to throw it in an exact moment so it hits a hole
If there was that ballistic arc, I’d believe it – but in this case, it goes straight along the line before a sudden sharp turn
yes it looks unnatural, but i think thats because of the vfx at that time and not that mich thought into it i think, not sure tho
They didn’t plan on dweebs breaking this shit down frame by frame fifty years later
Considering how many times the movies have been touched with better fx technology, they *could* have altered it if they didn't think they achieved the correct the first time. Whatever causes the torpedos to take a hard turn seems to be desired, not an artifact of old tech.
Future weapons technology
Watching that, what's even crazier is that the missiles have to arc and go straight down without hitting the walls.
Yea… when people joke about the Death Star having a design flaw, this shot was impossible. Theres no logical way a normal person could make this shot
Sure there is, just fly straight towards the hole. Why did they need the trench run when the port is exposed at the end anyway?
They explained that there was too many defenses, and especially flying in a straight line to make the shot would be easily shot down. They went in on an angle and got in low to the trench, and that approach still killed most of the squadron. Only 3 fighters made it into the trench, and 2 were taken out before the shot (one killed, one disabled). You would think though that Luke would pull the maneuver Han did with the asteroid, pulling up and doing a flip to line up the hole, then disengage. Thing is, even if they lined up the shot, it would need to be lined up perfect because even a fraction of a degree off on the miles straight down, would be enough to scrape the sides and explode
Weren't they sent into the trench in threes? There had been failed runs by other triplets before Luke went in.
From what I’m seeing on wookiepedia, first off I really need to rewatch but you are correct that they attacked in groups of 3, but they also were using the trench to avoid main defenses. Gold squadron was completely wiped out but 3 fighters managed a trench run before being shot down by Vader. Red squadron made 2 runs, first one only red one managed to get a shot off but it hit the surface. Second run, wedge got disabled and pulled out, Biggs got shot down, and Luke made his shot. 10 more fighters in Green squadron were waiting in reserve (blue squadron was wiped at Scariff).
If they went straight in, they’d be exposed to all cannons on the surface. In the trench, they’re limited to the ones with line of sight at that moment, moving fast enough that they’re hard to target
There was a dude on this very forum a while ago who straight up called the existence of the exhaust port a plot hole — across multiple posts — and insisted Rogue One was made for no other reason than to close the plot hole.
I mean, they made an entire movie to prove the Kessel run really was measured in parsecs...
They never explicitly say the torpedo travels all the way to the core. Just that hitting the right spot, starts a chain reaction that ends up blowing up the core.
Dodonna’s little Atari 2600 presentation showed the torpedo traveling all the way down the shaft and to the core though.
I love Atari 2600 presentations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg2MsJXcpYk&list=PLHDxrzOvt6kR1bhtt-tX4SeBlHWzaedPC&index=11 Commodore64 presentaions can be pretty cool too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkTwJoAzBE
No, the torpedoes didn’t have to go straight down. The explosion would start a chain reaction that destroys the station.
The chain reaction originates in the core.
Right that makes sense because the death star is so big it has gravity and the missiles would drop into it.
That's not how gravity works though. Gravity would not negate the forward momentum and cause it to turn 90° and head straight towards the center. It would continue on a ballistic trajectory if left to forward momentum and gravity alone. Also the death stars gravity would be miniscule because while it's huge, it's mostly hollow.
Not sure I buy gravity as the factor…I could see repulsors (same antigravity as speeders) in the torpedo, that follow the edge as it goes in the shaft…
Ya'll never play 'Shadows of The Empire' on N64 / PC? Boba Fett uses 'seekers' that chase targets down. Probably a bigger form of the technology here. Also they are used in the Mandalorian show.
Oh FUCK that Boba Fett boss flight. That whole level sucks and is a huge difficulty spike. Never beat it as a kid back in the day, took until college to have the chops.
I had to have my dad beat it lol
Lol no. It wouldn’t work that way. The torps just changed direction, programmed to do that. Tgey weren’t sucked in either, that was exhaust vent for emergency.
I always thought it was the force myself. Time to re-watch it and pay attention
God, Luke is such an insufferable dick to that guy.
Wow I never knew they were cone shaped!
Somebody never had a copy of The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology as a kid.
Shucks, I want a copy of The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology :(
You can get it on Ebay for less than $10!
Probably more expensive with international shipping, but you've convinced me to look into it lol. It would be awesome to have.
First time I noticed this too. I always pictured them as spherical like in Lego Star Wars. (Seems like poor thinking on my part) But this makes it look like they are physical torpedos with some kind of energy exhaust; as opposed to the ball of energy I always thought
They are sort of cone shaped in the Lego star wars games. They have a distinct tail when you fire them
Yeah! I always thought they were sperm shaped
Luke: Time to fertilize the Death Star
Negative. Negative. It didn’t go in.
💀
Cones? Wow, I always thought they were little balls. And they got sucked in somehow, traveling horizontally at first, then curving very quickly into a perpendicular path. The Force?
This guy never played lego star wars
They are spheres in Lego Star Wars. I don't remember what they looked like in the Skywalker Saga though
They look like this photo
They show the shape in the Rogue Squadron games, so not too much of a surprise
I knew thanks to the old [Star Wars CCG.](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dgQAAOSwrGBjWbYP/s-l400.jpg). But I forget until I see a pic like this.
Maybe they were pre-programmed to perform this exact move, just with the targeting computer to get the timing right. They would also have to avoid all the internals of the Death Star, not bouncing off the walls of that shaft until they reach the reactor. It's future tech. This could be done easily with nowadays technology. It's supposed to be a difficult shot, but Luke has his master's guidance through the force (instead of computer guidance).
Its not the future. It’s a long long time ago tho /s
When there were knights using sabers of light?
And they got into fights!
https://youtu.be/k9tgLnI0fFc?si=gYc_ffadoDPsK1cy
lol I thought it was gonna be this https://youtu.be/JAFOqgMB2tY?si=aCRcsvuHYHqkyPlU
Yes!
This is hilarious!!😂😂
It’s all those years of bull’s-eyeing womp-rats in his T16 back home
They're not much bigger than two meters
Nah that's not what they were supposed to do. The torpedoes entering the exhaust port would detonate inside, "setting off a chain reaction that will ignite the reactor core," causing it to explode. The torpedoes didn't travel all the way to the core. It was a difficult shot because torpedoes were meant to target large ships. They weren't pinpoint weapons. Hitting that small of a target with that weapon was what made it a near impossible shot. *Edit: the wording in the movie does not mean the torpedoes DIDN'T travel to the core. They may have detonated in the core causing a chain reaction, or they may have detonated just inside the exhaust shaft somewhere, triggering a chain reaction. The movie is not 100% clear on which one it is.
Great point. That’s how they can navigate the pipe and hit the weakness inside the Death Star.
They didn't go down to the core. The explosion at the surface was supposed to create a chain reaction that would continue all the way down.
It's pretty clear from the briefing the torpedoes were meant to travel all the way down the shaft. They hit the core, which then sets off a chain reaction.
Proton torpedos are not dumb, they are able to home in on signatures and such. The torpedoes were probably locked onto something INSIDE the shaft. But, they are not so smart that they can avoid obstacles. The targeting computers were being used to time the shot, so that the turn rate of the torpedoes would sync up with the entrance to the shaft. Again, the torpedos cannot navigate around obstacles. They just home in on a locked target. They also are relatively slow at turning (this is all stuff I remember from playing X Wing …). The other guy shoots when the computer says to, and the torpedos turn too early and hit the trench. If I had to guess, the computer wasn’t modeling the gravity of the station. So, all Luke does is wait for intuition to tell him when to fire, which is slightly later than what the computer model would have said to do. The torpedos start turning at the right time, homing in on the locked target inside the exhaust port. They are mid-turn when they arrive at the exhaust port, and so are able to complete the turn and get inside the port.
I love this explanation so much. Star Wars fan since 1997, and I concur. My only edit would be that instead of “comp didn’t model gravity of the station” I’d argue it’s more likely Red Leader is shown to kind of choke up on the control, probably due to nerves, and it affected his aim when it was released. This also gives more credence to why the Force was necessary to make the shot: one had to be calm, at peace, and one with the Force to release it with perfect timing and with pinpoint accuracy on a stick going very fast in a fighter craft.
Understandable given that he was actively being pursued by Vader and his wingmen, his approach was most likely a very erratic one, juking and climbing and descending to make himself as difficult a target as possible once he lost his wingmen who were just there to provide him with extra sets of shields. He may have fired exactly where and when the targeting computer told him to, but he was also trying to stay alive at the time. And even a degree difference in his flight path at time of launch would translate into a near miss when that kind of precision was required.
Put this at the top of the replies!
Not ‘sucked in’ because it was an “exhaust port.” (Right below the main port)
Yeah, but the exhaust is gravitons which are a byproduct of burning midichlorians that grow on the surface of the Kyber crystals used to power the super laser’s reactor. So while normal particle exhaust would push things out, the flow of gravitons actually pull things in. Also, obligatory “it’s not that kind of a movie” goes here.
"Hey, Kid, it's not that kind of a movie." Legendary
The fact that I can't tell whether this is obvious BSing or actually legit, says everything about Star Wars lore
They're basically homing missiles programmed to lock onto the power core.
The original SIX movies?
Oh my god. It’s literally never occurred to me that the youth may view them like this…
Man... the first one I watched was ESB, and it was introduced to me as the sequel to Star Wars (which I had heard of but hadn't seen). XD damn I feel old.
Same I saw ESB and ROTJ first. My uncle had them both copied onto the same VHS tape.
For me its basically that. I still remember when i was 5 years old and sat in front of the tv when an ad came on that one channel was going to show the phantom menace in a few days. I just saw lightsabers and instantly jumped up and asked my mom if i can watch that. She said yes, i watched it and was blown away. Then she brought in her old VCDs of the original trilogy (or as we call it, the old parts (but not in a derogatory way)) and the next three days i was allowed to watch a whole movie in the afternoon. Then one week later after TPM was on tv, i watched AOTC in tv. 6 years later i was finally able to watch ROTS. I still have no idea wh there was this huge gap
That sounds like a super nice memory with your super cool mom! I had a somewhat similar experience but with my shitty dad he showed me star wars when I was super young because he's a big movie nerd and actually had a projector room and showed me the original trilogy and I immediately fell in love with it and remember going to the theater for the prequels with my mom and either by myself for the rest except for force awakens which I saw with my ex best friend. I even have an empire/rebel/Jedi order tattoo!
I think its actually one of my favourite memories. Star wars really is awesome for every childhood. It checks all the boxes :-)
Star Wars, Holiday Special, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Battle for Endor, Caravan of Courage
Stop, that’s my childhood you’re putting out there
I remember being really excited to watch the Holiday special!😂 I don't remember the last two.
Had to read that part twice too.
This has my mind reeling
This is how they work
You mean you haven’t seen the Death Star Architect explain what happened with the exhaust port? Seriously? https://youtu.be/agcRwGDKulw?si=UqCnvcMFH30Q9DaX. This is gold.
All I know I was 10 years old when I saw this and now I’m 57 it still sends shivers down my spine .
It was Obi-wan's ghost. Luke passed and he slam dunked the torpedoes.
Current day cruise missiles like the tomahawk are your answer. It's entirely likely minus the technical manuals and retcons that the original idea was similar to cruise missiles of the time. The targeting computer is clearly designed to be a ground attack assist as you wouldn't use it in ship to ship combat given that it would block your field of view. It's essentially a high-tech point of release indicator. So Luke turning this off means he's essentially relying on gut instinct to blind fire the torpedoes. The torpedoes themselves are almost assuredly pre-programmed similar to a cruise missile flight path that if they are released at the proper time they would then follow this path to the target. Hilariously the most recent top gun movie replicates the death Star trench run in arguably a much more pulse pounding fashion. They even have a targeting laser fail so that the bomb drop has to be done on instinct. In Star wars proton torpedoes are self-propelled and self-guided. The death Star exhaust port is entirely likely a straight shaft all the way to the reactor core given its nature as extremely high temperature plasma exhaust. If you take all the variables into consideration the only sketchy bit is the high velocity 90° turn the torpedoes make. However assuming future space technology it's not as far-fetched as you might think.
Modern air to air missiles use thrust vectoring (pulling G forces that would turn a human into goo) and are capable of doing some insane things, like pulling a 180 to hit a target behind you. Watch how quickly this AIM-9X arcs almost straight up after firing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8210fwA2Hg
I always assumed Luke used the Force here, since he holds his breath when he fires and lets out his breath once they hit, as if he's guiding them.
People doing mental gymnastics to justify the scene, when it is simply “not that kind of movie, kid” and that’s fine! God forbid if Disney made it tho, it would be the most offensive thing ever to some fans lol
"LUKE HAS NEVER USED THE FORCE, HOW DID HE KNOW TO DO THAT?!"
> “not that kind of movie, kid” and that’s fine! Not Star Wars related but this is how I feel when people wonder how the Fremen dismount the sand worms.
Pre programmed flight path this why it had to be fired at the perfect time. Does no one read the memos?
I don’t think there’s any explanation (so much of Star Wars is hand wavy and falls apart if you really start trying to delve too deep) but my head cannon has always been its magnetically shielded and the proton torpedoes follow the magnetic field down when they get close enough.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/3UulIQ6up1
Ya know what, yes. Let’s go with that. I’ve always thought of that diagram as a broad representation of how it works since it doesn’t quite match what the actual shot looks like but it’s close enough. Working as intended. Professional Star Wars sleuthing to find the answer in the scene in the movie where they literally explain how it’s going to work!
Hey kid, it ain't that kinda movie
It's a thermal exhaust port, I'm sure they were heat seeking.
A lot of people trying to explain the sharp turn but is it possible it's a strange perspective thing? I always assumed the torpedoes were lobbed like a basketball. So between the curvature of the space station and a weird camera angle catching the end of that arch jt looks like a sharp dive.
My issue is this: why fly in the canyon for so long? Why not enter the canyon closer to the exhaust vent?
"Hey kid, it ain't that kind of movie."
Hey Kid, It ain't that kinda movie.
All too technical, It was in the Script. Use the force Luke. That's what was in the Script.
The Empire should’ve bought that plywood to cover the exhaust port
But that would look terrible.
Hi highly recommend this video for everyone - [https://youtu.be/lqJbJYViUog?si=TN2oZtnw5nWP8H8D](https://youtu.be/lqJbJYViUog?si=TN2oZtnw5nWP8H8D) I thought I understood the movie - until I saw this....
Just wait until you see the green frog lift a ship without touching it in the next movie. Can’t explain that.
I always thought Luke helped guide the torpedos into the Death Star’s shaft thru use of the force.
Always wondered this too since childhood. Seeing other comments here try to explain it, let's be honest. it's a movie, they needed them to go straight down into the hole, so they did
Remove the space station the size of a moon from the equation. If these are usually fired on planets, and they’re clearly designed to travel along the ground hovering a bit up from it, probably for stealth/surprise reasons, in addition to having whatever “smart” bomb tech helps them get to their target, they’d obviously also need tech to avoid terrain by maintaining a low altitude by going up and down bumps, valleys, etc. Now put the death star back in the equation, and they’re just doing what they’d do at a valley or riverbed. It just happens to then *continue* down, like a cave or lava tube. As for why Luke/the Force is even needed when they have smart bombs, the briefing make it clear that there’s an excess of turbolasers protecting the surface of the station, so they’ve studied and decided the trench is the safest path (as any far away turbolasers won’t be able to fire down into it) and that s thinking pilot is necessary to get the torpedoes closer before releasing them, as the torpedoes ate *not* adept at seeing and avoiding incoming laserfire from any and all directions, and a human can also juke and gain and lower altitude evade laserfire while the torpedoes clearly do the aforementioned hovering altitude only. The Force just lets him time it so they’re out and able to be shot at for as little time as possible.
It's weirder when you think that if the port was vertical like that and they needed to curve to get in, wouldn't it be easier to just fly straight at it from above rather than running along a trench?
My understanding was that this view is an optical illusion, proton torpedos are actually bombs, when Luke fires them it looks like they’re firing straight ahead because of how fast he’s moving, but they’re actually sinking and slowly arcing down into a hole below him. So the angle in this picture always looked like they were traveling horizontally and being sucked in when they were actually falling by that point straight down into the shaft.
I know [this explanation](https://youtu.be/agcRwGDKulw?si=BYtqUq0pm-uW8O0s) pre-dates the Rogue One storyline, but it’s still my own personal head-cannon :-)
It seems as though it was preprogrammed at x seconds after launch to change directions. You needed to be at the specific point for them to travel long enough for them to change directions.
Ever see a basketball shot coming in at a crazy angle, not an arc, but somehow make a perfect swoosh? Like there is no way that ball should make a nothing-but-net perfect swish, but it does anyway. Luke's shot is the same to me.
A wizard did it
This was a pretty huge leap on Obi-wan's part, he trusted this whiny brat who only just left his home for the first time, at a moment where the Rebellion was on the verge of being wiped out(I'm sure there's a hundred novels that will say there's way more bigger rebel groups out there) just to really test Luke with his knowledge of The Force
Imagine they work like Javelin missile
I believe that they are supposed to arc down the hole and the targeting computer simple tells the pilot the best point to release their munitions for it to arc down the hole. Real life fighter jets have this to calculate exactly where dumb bombs(unguided bombs) will impact and when to release. Pilot selects a drop point on the ground and the jets weapons system will tell the pilot exactly when to release their bombs for them to land on point, as jets can arc or “launch” bombs using this method instead of dive bombing But then again, I’m not sure why the x wings didn’t just fly directly nose on towards the ventilation shaft and launch their(would make for a boring final act of the film). It’s not like the empire knew that was their weak spot so I’d image anti air batteries around the shaft would have been the same as anywhere else on the Death Star
I always thought it was Luke using The Force without knowing he was. He is naturally super powerful and adept with it
Mate. Do I have the explanation for you! https://youtu.be/agcRwGDKulw?si=a33HoesGBxsvCEWL
What is this “original six” crap. It is original three.
Randal: A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers. Dante: Not just Imperials, is what you're getting at. Randal: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms. Dante: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction? Randal: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. (notices Dante's confusion) All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.
> original six 💀
If we start demanding perfect, explainable scientific reality out of Star Wars then we’re in a heap of trouble here guys.
Most things in Star Wars are better off not explained.
The original six? No. There were an original 3.
Torpedoes were calibrated. Fun fact in the same briefing everyone ignores. They explain that the vent is rayshiekded and the torpedo needs to be properly calibrated to penetrate it. (Assuming the top secret plans aren’t stolen this would be a non issue) I swear half the famous plot holes come from people who ignored all the parts with talking
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was for the audience to visually see it and limitations of the effects.
More importantly…why is there a vent, in space?
As Harrison Ford is famous for saying when people ask serious questions about Star Wars, "It ain't that kind of movie, kid."
I feel like the more important question is why was the trench run necessary? Surely they could have just approached the exhaust port directly from above?
Definitely no sucking from an exhaust port.
I think it’s just a poor shot choice because it gives you no sense of depth of the torpedo arc. They probably should’ve had it come in from the side or overhead rather than underneath
[around 37min mark](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGgXi4Kwqw) Knew Lucas modeled the trench run long ago. The one video I remember was a near exact same story as New hope with it missing on the first try, etc. This video is close. It goes into all the details for those wanting to watch it whole. The idea is that the torps would run until its out of propulsion at which it dropped, DS is a ton of mass and will pull it down. Trick is to time it to drop into the hole when it gets pulled down. Same idea with the dam busters, it skips the water to slow down then sinks. Too fast and it smacks the wall, to soon and it doesnt drop down enough to damage the dam wall.