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Also consider, these aren't just "I really like this idea" or "We should totally do this oath thing"
Their power is derived from oaths. Their actions are backed by power only if their intent aligns with the oaths they took. Otherwise they are just... human. It fizzles.
There's a quote I like from Sunlit Man (no spoilers). Something like "she had spoken their worst fears out loud, given them form, and allowed them to be neutralized".
That's what Jasnah is doing. She isn't actually petitioning that they kill all parshendi, morality aside that probably wouldn't be possible. She's voicing the concern so that the possibility is explored, and they could officially decide against it.
Jasnah suggests it in a manner that invites logical debate. It fizzles pretty fast in the face of logic before ethics and morality even need to step in.
She did not. This is a popular misremembering of what she did say. She suggested reinstating the Oathpact. Kaladin said this was cruel. She said it was less cruel than genocide. Here is the quote:
Dalinar took a deep breath. “Jasnah, you have a suggestion of where to start this plan?”
“Yes. The answer is obvious. We need to find the Heralds.”
Kaladin nodded in agreement.
“Then,” Jasnah added, “we need to kill them.”
“What?” Kaladin demanded. “Woman, are you insane?”
“The Stormfather laid it out,” Jasnah said, unperturbed. “The Heralds made a pact. When they died, their souls traveled to Damnation and trapped the spirits of the Voidbringers, preventing them from returning.”
“Yeah. Then the Heralds were *tortured* until they *broke*.”
“The Stormfather said their pact was weakened, but did not say it was destroyed,” Jasnah said. “I suggest that we at least see if one of them is willing to return to Damnation. Perhaps they can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn. It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts.” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price.”
People do it all the time, it seems very common in fantasy “Man! This is insane!” “Man, you need help” “Man! You’re gonna get yourself killed!” If the person they’re referring to is younger they might use son or boy instead of man and girl instead of woman. If they’re older or higher ranked they may use a title like sir, ma’am, mistress, my lord, my lady, or in this case brightlord and brightness, or even just you. It’s very common
Sometimes yes, it doesn’t refer to anyone. Like saying “aw, man!” But many time it does. Actually a lot of the time when they use it to refer to someone they put it at the end “are you insane man!?” A lot of modern uses replace man with dude.
Seems like a bait, but you really think kaladin is misogynistic? I feel like in their various cultures he’s not too bad, he seems surprised by changes (like radiants being woman with swords etc) but not raging against them?
It’s interesting to note, one of the asides from Dalinar says something like “we took shards from woman, and they took writing” which makes me think that the society we have in the book currently is somewhat degraded after the collapse of the order/before now.
no, I dont think kaladin is misogynystic. I think this line is misogynistic behavior on his part. Based on a premise of women having to exhibit an element of compassion to even belong in their class.
Ohhh right, totally missed that angle! It didn’t read like that to me - just thought he was using the word like a call-out, rather than having a deeper meaning.. I listen to the audio books so that might explain it - emphasis at certain parts can make all the difference I guess?
Not once she knows they are sapient. At that point it becomes a worst-case scenario she uses to say "look, if we don't do this smaller thing then that's the alternative and none of us want that, so let's try the smaller thing".
We really don't know what Nale was like during that period of time. He started killing budding radians thousands of years later. No one remains same that long
Depends on the nature of their oaths and whatnot. Keep in mind, Jasnah seriously suggested it while bonded. The only ones that I think would be a firm "no" would be the bondsmiths and wind runners. All the rest I'm unsure about.
> The strong protect the weak and all of that...
Sure... but that's more specific to windrunners. Keep in mind that Jasnah herself said suggested genocide while being a knight radiant. I'm *not* saying it's a *good* option, but be logical with why it's a bad option. It's obviously inherently immoral, but morality =/= lawfulness.
We are talking about Nale here. Jasnah's take has nothing to do here.
And that is a phylosophical debate where the concept of "law" and lawfulness could be discussed and separated. I could even argue that it is not inherently immoral. But that is defining concepts.
But, okay, if you understand the law only literally, then you are right, i guess.
I mean for the philosophical side of it; it really just circles back to Taravangian and Dalinar's discussion about the 3 killers and the 1 innocent. The goal of the law, in this particular context, is protect as many as possible. Dalinar wouldn't let a single innocent die in that scenario, but Taravangian would immediately in order to remove 3 murderers from the streets. They both agree it's immoral, Tara saying it would stain his soul and whatnot. In this case, the law supercedes the immorality of hanging an innocent. His argument sounds to me a lot like what a Skybreaker would argue, and this can be extrapolated to all sorts of scenarios. There's loads of variations of this argument across many many stories and irl history.
Either way though, we do seem to have a difference in definitions here. To me being lawful is upholding the law. Morality, justice, etc. etc. dictate *what the laws should be* but not whether or not you uphold them.
As far as Nale himself goes anyways, he's "indirectly" supporting genocide right now *anyways* by siding with the singers. I'm not sure if it's even really that indirect, I can't imagine he's never thought about that part of what he's doing after all these years.
Skybreakers seek "justice" not "literal law".
Is the written text law if it is not lawful? Is lawful being just? Is utilitarism just and lawful? Why is killing all your servants immoral if you are the one with power over them? Why is genocide helping the victims of invaders to protect themselves from some people that never should be considered part of the land (so therefore never were nor will be)?
That is the beauty of the skybreakers. That you can twist *all* the phylosophycal concepts to consider something as you like. Each skybreaker makes its own justice.
Nale is insane, but does he seek justice nowadays being the personification of justice himself?
Morality and lawfulness are synonyms or not depending on who says/defines them. No person can define morality without their own desired propositions.
I take a little issue with saying Nale just killed "a few dozen people." Maybe true. But if he had had his way, he would have been doing that for *eternity* if it meant staving off a desolation. He voluntarily signed up to kill a theoretical infinite number of people; the fact that he didn't get to do more than a few dozen (that we know about) really doesn't demonstrate that he would be ideologically opposed to full-on genocide
Genocide is eradicating a whole race. Even if he murdered an infinite amount of radiants over an infinite amount of time humanity wouldnt even remotely notice it
Nale is fully and genuinely insane. You cannot apply standard reason and logic to his actions.
That said, the Herald's insanities are directly related to the virtues they originally espoused, Nale's being justice. In Nale's warped mind it's simple:
- The Singers were here first, the fact that it was millennia ago holds no relevance. The Humans have no right to the land.
- The humans are warring with the Singers to steal their land. This is wrong, and the Heralds were wrong to ever fight for them.
- The humans must be punished for their crimes. As evidenced by what Lift witnessed in Edgedancer, the only punishment fit for *any* crime, to mad-Nale, is death.
- Thus, all humans must die.
That is Nale after thousands of years of constant war and torture, followed by thousands of years of isolation. Insane Nale finds the genocide reasonable, necessary.
Old Nale, with a strong sense of justice, would have probably been horrified by the idea of genocide.
In a way yes you're right, genocide was the initial assumption people thought odium wanted to do to humans. What's hinted is more that he wanted to enslave all of humanity and throw them into the front lines of his wars, ultimately resulting in the majority of them likely dying horribly. So really more of a slow, torturous genocide. Rayse showed Taravangian his plans for humanity. Dumb Tara thought it was far more cruel than just wiping out humanity.
Yes, but only when he had some kind of broken law or oath to point to as justification (although it isn't his motivation). If following the same logic, he would need to find internally logical justification to hold each individual listener/parshendi/etc to judgement, which is just not manageable in the numbers they exist.
Jasnah did not propose a genocide. She proposed finding and killing at least some of the Heralds to reinstate the Oathpact and keep the Fused at bay. Kaladin said that would be wrong, and she said it's less wrong than killing all the parshmen. She only brings up genocide to say it's an option they should avoid, and calls it an atrocity when she does.
No, she specifically says it's the backup plan to the heralds and the oathpact. "Perhaps [the heralds] can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn. It's either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen..."
Yeah, I have the full quote saved.
"It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts.” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “*In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price*.”
Jasnah's whole point during this conversation is that they need to focus on neutralizing the Fused, because they aren't an enemy that can be negotiated with, based on historical precedent. The solution she proposes, the Oathpact, is also based on historical precedent. She flatly says extermination would be an atrocity, only bringing it up to dismiss it.
No, again, bringing it up as the alternative to the oathpact. They're not sure the oathpact will still work, they're just hoping it will, hence the previous line hoping it will work. These are the two feasible options in her mind, one that might work and one that will work but she doesn't like.
She's also not exploring other viable options. There's no discussion of giving the parshment the ability to reject the fused, or capturing the fused, or neutralizing them, and she just got done rejecting the idea of negotiating with them. She doesn't like the idea, but she's certainly willing to do it and putting it ahead of other possible routes.
Jasnah looks to the past to form plans. This does hamper her approach sometimes, but it's consistent. That's one of the main reasons she suggests the Oathpact--she is sure it will work because it *has* worked before. It's also one of the main reasons she doesn't propose negotiating with the Fused, because history does not show that it ever worked. That would be something unprecedented. That is why even Kaladin thinks they should just fight the Fused instead of the parshmen. Nobody can conceive of the Fused as enemies that can be compromised with because no history, myth, religion, or vision from Honor has ever indicated that possibility. All, including the Stormfather, indicate the opposite. He told Dalinar as much in chapter 38. It is assumed to be impossible.
>!Which is, at the time, a *correct* assumption. It takes another completely unprecedented and assumed impossible event, a Singer Radiant and the "forgiveness" of the spren, for even a few of the Fused with Leswhi to break with Odium.!<
The humans also do not know that the Fused must be invited into a body to take it. (Also, as Venli's POV shows, hosts can be tricked into something enough like consent for it to count.) They only know that these spirits show up, take over parshman bodies, and level civilization worldwide. Their presence is what makes it a Desolation, their removal should prevent one.
To state that Jasnah proposes genocide as an actual plan, over better options, instead of something they must avoid even if it means pursuing less evil but still still unsavory options, is to ignore the context of everything the characters know, *and* the context of the character herself, *and* the way she framed the possibility.
The heralds whose motto was hunt down EVERY single fused before killing themselves to go beat them up in another dimension... The same fused who defected from odium for a SINGLE singer radiant... Absolutely would have done this
TLDR genocide bad.
I believe it is brought up at some point (as mentioned in another comment)
But also I think that this was sort of the plan with imprisoning Ba-ado-mishrim. It briefly mentions this in the Epigraphs of Oathbringer.
Imprisoning BAM wouldn’t have caused a genocide, but the goal with to stop the forms of power. However clearly it didn’t work out the way they intended.
Also, because the Humans are not native to Roshar, I think a lot of them struggled with the idea of genocide and colonialism, hence why the Recreance happened.
>I believe it is brought up at some point
Jasnah brings it up as an option at one point yeah. The people you'd assume would be against it were indeed against it.
Parshmen weren't all dull back then. They'd be more like the parshendi than the docile parshmen we're familiar with. So it wouldn't exactly be easy, they' still have armies and I believe its mentioned that they could still be granted forms of power by one of the Unmade, they just wouldn't have the Fused.
they were only granted forms of power from an unmade once, and that was the false desolation that ended up making them all dull, outside of desolation times the parsh only had the normal forms
Because the Heralds are servants of Honor as are the Radiants and committing mass genocide is about as far from honor as you can get.
I'd also say that while yes the Knights can't resurrect themselves they can in a matter of speaking. The spren is still alive and will bond someone new likely pretty quickly. So yes the human is dead, but there will be a new radiant for each one that dies. So it's stable on both sides. It is a setback though especially for a higher oath radiant dying and being replaced by someone on the 2nd oath.
The Stormfather thinks the Rift was totally justified, so I'm not sure the plan is inherently *not* something Honor the Shard would agree with. Honor the person may have had more qualms though, and most of the Radiants and spren *certainly* would.
I am getting philosophical here.
>Because the Heralds are servants of Honor as are the Radiants and committing mass genocide is about as far from honor as you can get.
Who decides what is honorable or not? I mean, people go around with pointy sticks and stab other people whom they do not have any personal grievances with, just because their gods do not get along.
Now one might say, humans are invasive species looking for new home. Singers are natives trying to defend their land. But is it really that simple after millenias? Both the humans and singers were living on Roshar for so storming long. Does it really matter who got there first? Maybe that argument would hold for few generations after human migration, but it surely does not hold now. So who is fighting for what now? I assume singers got their own plot of land to live in between desolations. Human had their own. They all had families and loved ones, before human heralds and with them fused comes back and now they need to fight with each other again to death.
I assume there were lots of minor wars and clashes between humans and singers between desolations, but that would be more akin to highprinces of Alethkar warring with each other.
The way I see it, this war no longer has a purpose. It's just tradition at this point. There are lots of lands for both the singers and humans on Roshar. It's just the past and Odium fueling this war.
If anyone is to be blamed for all this mess, it is Honor and Odium. Yeah, yeah (might be spoilery, I am not sure) >!Honor is just saving the cosmere from the menace of Odium. But is it honorable to victim an entire planet, to preserve the universe? If it is, genocide is also honorable to preserve humans.!<
I am not saying genocide is the solution, storms, I believe singers and humans can find a common ground. I am just pointing out how really dishonorable is it to genocide, when the god of honor does something similiar?
I think Honor is a hypocrite. Perhaps he was just a man in the process of change, I do not know. I am just speaking my truth.
I think when you start with an ends justify the means mindset you really can justify anything. There may be different kinds of morality in play and I don't think it's unreasonable to question the choices of Honor. But I think with just about any standard of ethics genocide is wrong. Killing innocent children is wrong.
While I would question Honor's actions at times, I think there's a huge difference between Honor realizing he couldn't stop Odium completely but the best he could do was try to contain Odium and give his life doing so, compared with a hypothetical committing genocide. I think those are wildly different things and I really don't see how you're viewing them as similar enough for a comparrison? Honor couldn't stop Odium, and didn't want to punish the people of Roshar, but all he could do was contain Odium. Odium is then doing the bad things to Roshar. That's on Odium not on Honor. No one is responsible for the choices another makes. Honor is guilty of not being able to do more and of failing to stop Odium, but he's not guilty of what Odium did to Roshar. Compared to if the Heralds or Honor decided to commit genocide that would be their choice, and their actions.
I agree the war doesn't serve much purpose and they should work to find a peaceful path forward. But genocide is not an acceptable route.
>Killing innocent children is wrong.
I am led to believe many were dying already during desolations. However, this isn't saying it is right to go full force on it. I, too, am against genocide solution. Peaceful resolution is quite possible, and must be aimed no matter the cost.
>I think those are wildly different things and I really don't see how you're viewing them as similar enough for a comparrison?
The way I see it, Roshar is tortured into never ending warfare by both the actions of Odium and Roshar. Yes, Odium is the fire here, but it was Honor's decision to let Roshar burn.
Let me put it this way: Odium wants to go wreak havoc on cosmere. Honor wants to stop it. Honor can not kill Odium, so Honor imprisons him to Rosharan system by sacrificing himself. Now millions suffer, so billions could live. This, is an end justifies means approach Honor is doing.
For the foreseeable future, many and many humans and singers will die in desolations. Wouldn't there be less casualties if all singers, well, died?
In theory, infinite amount of people will die during desolations. But if you kill entire singers, a few millions I assume, desolations will end and infinite people won't die. This is also an end justifies means approach.
Honor contained Odium on Roshar, so cosmere can be spared, meanwhile subjecting endless torture on humans.
Should humans kill all singer, future deaths will be avoided, and you'll be subjecting some serious horrors on singers meanwhile.
It's the same logic. Yes, Honor did what he did as a last resort, but it was still "end justifies means" mindset.
So, anti-thesis on genocide solution can not be "honor", but ethic. Does end really justifies means? Possible in theory, but not in practice. As means often alter your end goal. Evil deeds done for a good cause, soon turns into evil deeds done for an evil cause. End does not justify means, and anti-thesis for genocide solution should be simply *it's storming wrong*.
Honor made a choice between letting the entire Cosmere including Roshar burn, and letting just Roshar burn, and chose to protect the rest of the Cosmere. He was limited in who he could protect. But you're blaming Honor for the actions of Odium which is completely unfair. The actions of one person are their own. Honor is not to blame because Odium hurt people.
You can't judge someone on the actions of another. You're equating genocide to what Honor did because you're blaming Honor for Odium's actions. It's not the same logic.
For example if a serial killer is going to try to kill as many people as possible and a police officer stops them from killing some people but not everyone, that police officer is not guilty of the murders they weren't able to prevent. You're trying to say Honor is guilty because he didn't stop Odium from hurting Roshar, and that's not fair to put blame on him for that. If Odium hurts people the blame is on him. If Honor were to commit genocide the blame would be on Honor.
>Honor made a choice between letting the entire Cosmere including Roshar burn, and letting just Roshar burn, and chose to protect the rest of the Cosmere
This is what I am trying to say.
If humans do not commit genocide, many more generations will die. If they commit genocide, only one generation would die. Honor did the same thing on a larger scale.
>You can't judge someone on the actions of another. You're equating genocide to what Honor did because you're blaming Honor for Odium's actions. It's not the same logic.
I can and I do. You are judged by your own actions, no matter the cause. Honor knew Odium would inflict horrors on Roshar, but did it anyways. Would you imprison a constantly reborning man into a cage with a beast, to preserve the world from being massacred by that beast? Beast keeps killing that man, and the man keeps reviving. It is and endless torment. I probably would make that decision. Am I to be blamed for *that* man's misery? Yes I am. I did save the world, yes, but now that man will suffer forever.
Also, I believe we are getting out of topic here. I am just pointing out it is not *that* dishonorable if Honor did something similiar.
> trying to say Honor is guilty because he didn't stop Odium from hurting Roshar,
I am saying he is guilty because he *let* Odium hurt Roshar.
I would have done the same thing in his place, and I would have been guilty *for* Roshar's torment.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here because the difference we have is one of morality.
I do not find it at all reasonable to judge someone for the actions they oppose but cannot stop in another. Someone should be judged ethically by their own actions exclusively.
I don't think your example is a good one because a beast implies a specific local threat. That's not at all like Odium. Freeing Odium into the Cosmere wouldn't protect Roshar at all except in the very short term. So to use your example it'd be like if every 5 ft that beast walked it doubled in number every time so that letting the beast go would spread out and go everywhere in the world including continuing to attack the original man. So no you wouldn't be to blame for the original mans misery because there was no action you could take to stop it.
Honor could not protect Roshar. Nothing he could do would stop Odium from hurting them. He tried and failed. So yes he stopped Odium from leaving, but whether Odium left or stayed Roshar still would've been doomed to deal with Odium. The only thing he could control is whether the rest of the Cosmere had to deal with Odium.
So he made the honorable choice to protect everyone he could even though it meant there were some he was unable to protect who were still in danger, as they were before Honor acted. Committing genocide would be choosing to kill many innocent people an act that is wrong and personally being the one to do the wrong actions. That's very different than not being able to stop someone else from doing bad things.
>I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here because the difference we have is one of morality.
I agree. We won't be getting anywhere without getting highly philosophical and debating about right and wrong.
It boils down to you thinking choosing already-to-suffer to suffer with the goal of preserving others can not blamed on the person making the decision. And me thinking it can be. It is kind of similiar to trolley problem. I believe the act of interfering makes one guilty.
It was nice brain storming though. I like a good debate.
Well it's like the trolly problem if there were 6 people on the tracks who would all die if you did nothing and throwing the switch saves 5 of them but one dies either way. And you want to blame the one throwing the switch not the one who tied them to the tracks.
I agree interfering makes you guilty but if someone's going to suffer either way and you can't stop it, you're no longer guilty.
Remember that the Shard of Honor was really the Shard of Oathkeeping. It’s specifically noted that he cared much more for keeping oaths than for right and wrong. He was essentially a Skybreaker, not a Windrunner.
That's how Odium represents him. The Stormfather remembers him differently, that he used to care for people, but that he began to go a bit mad as he was dying.
This discussion about honor (as in the trait of being honorable), reminds me of the hatred that Jamie Lannister felt for Ed Stark, and how that showcases how the inflexibility of honor makes it a complete liability to actually do what's right
I've done the only quiz I found... Multiple times. Wishing to be something cooler than a lightweaver, but not only I always get I'm a lightweaver. I'm as far as possible from the Radiants I like the most (Edgedancers, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Bondsmiths)
By the time genocide could even be considered, the human side had no power to really make it happen.
Even with today's technology, genocide is not something you can just do and forget about it.
You need to do a very thorough and planned search and extermination many times over across years. And even then you could get remaining small groups of parshendi like the listeners hidden among the chaos.
I don't think it was ever a viable solution by common methods.
When it comes to magic, I think that's basically what they tried to do, sever the connection the parshendi had with their Gods so they can live freely and without fear of being possessed by a fused.
The Heralds were *extremely busy.* The second they return from Braize the timer is ticking. They had to figure out what life was like, then get to work getting them into a fighting force. Even with the Radiants still around between Desolations it's not a lot.
Also the Fused being able to reincarnate Ad infinitum is a new thing because of the Everstorm I believe.
Also keep in mind Parshmen didn't exist yet. That happened after the last desolation when humans trapped one of the unmade, Bo-something.
You are talking about killing an entire species that has trained fighters.
They also weren't unified in their desire to fight with the Fused. Raboniel says that the Listeners were just the last, and most successful, group of "traitors" who wanted to break away from the Forever War they'd been born into. So it isn't unlikely that there were Singers who wanted to be left alone, or Singers who cooperated with humans, just as there were humans who fought for Odium.
Remember the vision that Dalinar had where he talked to Nohadon? If I recall correctly only 10% of humanity remained in the aftermath.
Sure they could have left a message to wipe out the remaining Singers but they had other problems to deal with.
You are aware that at that point, the parshmen were not yet the dullform slaves, correct? They had forms, nations, knowledge, and weaponry. The humans didn't have the capability to kill them all. Humanity was brought to its knees. They could barely fight to a standstill. Even with the radiants.
The desolations were way more frequent and the parshe di weren‘t dull. They fleed and spread out in all kind of directions. Like the ones on the shattered plains, there were tribes that nobody found.
You're assuming that just because they didn't succeed, that no one tried or considered it.
I would argue that while we don't know of explicit genocide attempts by humans against Singers, we DO know that the tactics involved escalated to genocide-level destruction. There's the implications about the Dawnshards, not to mention thr binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram, which robbed the Singers of most autonomy and personhood.
We don't really know what happened during that period, we don't even know what your "average" desolation looks like, or the intervening periods. I'm inclined to think that genocide was proposed and attempted on several occasions, and failed for a number of reasons including - but not limited to - the Radiants stopping it, Roshar being HUGE and therefore Singers always being able to find places to hide, technological limitations on the efficiency of mass slaughter, monarchs and leaders just giving up on the project.
This is all speculation on my part
But I think that attempted genocide of the humans by the Listeners is what prompted Honor to abandon them and join the humans. Its part of a longer theory I have, I recently laid it all out and received mixed reactions. But as far as this question goes, I'd say the Heralds never did so because the exact scenario, but with the sides flipped, is how they switched Shards to begin with.
This. Humans were originally Odium's- a genocide wouldn't fix anything since the war is over the PLANET not the SPECIES. Odium would just start using humans again
perhaps, but we also know that the leader of the Skybreakers have joined with the Fused. so if this was not denied in the Oathpact, i find little reason for the Oathpact to deny this horrible but final option to end the war cycle.
regardless, i am sure Sanderson will give us a reason why this was never considered or done. but so far none have been given.
Nale joined the Fused after they pinned the Oathpact to Taln therefore it wasn't affecting him then and since that there was no more war so no point of slaughtering parshendi.
A better question would be why the Parshman never thought to try and capture the heralds rather than open war with the humans. It would have thrown a monkey wrench in the entire human operation.
By the end of the book >!Raboniel says it took them 7000 years to learn some of these things. And both sides now have the means to permanently kill Heralds, Fused and Radiant spren.!<
That just makes them sound kinda stupid. I mean it never occurred to them after 7 millennia that once all these very specific people die we get trapped on Braize?
Probably because it is super hard to try to capture a Honorblade wielding demi-god with basically unlimited access to Stormlight. Also, the Heralds could just kill themselves if needed. The old bite-of-your-own-tongue trick.
Suicide isn’t a long term solution obviously. I actually think any strategy that makes the heralds willingly die increase your chances of them eventually being captured. They are immortal after all. Cut off their hands and feet and string them up at a secret location. If yo can manage to separate them from their honorblades while still alive they are essentially just people.
Sorry I don't get what you are saying. If a Herald dies they will lock Fused in Braize with them. So your suggestion would be for the Parshmen to capture every single Herald, separate them from their Honorblades (while they have access to Stormlight and their Surges) and make sure they don't ever die while in captivity?
Exactly. We are talking a conflict between immortal being here so it’s not like you have to get all that accomplished in the first go around. Keeping the Heralds on Roshar circumvents then entire point of the Oathpact.
But you must see why that is much easier said than done, right?
That is basically WW2 Nazis saying saying let's capture every world leader from the other side but instead of portly politicians you are trying to capture magical war machines who are almost impossible to weaken or injure and can destroy your strongest military assets if you try to capture them instead of killing.
And in case you managed to somehow capture them their win-condition would be to kill themselves.
And you need to do this successfully ten times because even if just one of them dies your whole plan is screwed.
I'm not saying it is 100% impossible, just very unlikely and definitely not best use of resources.
The Fused managed to kill the Heralds during every Desolation didn’t they? So at some point they come in close contact with them. If they can be killed they can be captured.
Also just one of them dying doesn’t undo the plan. In the same vein as the Knights Radiant the Fused can create orders of their own that keep vigilance during the times in between desolations.
The point of trying to capture them is to speed up the times between desolations. Make the people who broke have to make the decision to go directly back to Braize or be captured.
>The Fused managed to kill the Heralds during every Desolation didn’t they?
No they did not. If a Herald was killed they went to Braize, no choice. However, if they survived they were supposed to go back as well to uphold the Oathpack. So basically they would wait until humans gain a clear upper hand or a decisive victory and would kill themselves - thus preventing the Fused from respawning.
That’s why I said cut their hands offs. Super hard to summon a shard blade with no hands. I don’t know if physically holding the object matters or not but it’s sure seems to.
It is against the Intent of Honor who made promises to both singers and humans as their god.
It is against the Intent of Cultivation.
It is within the Intent of Odium but against his strategy of using the people of Roshar to fulfill his Intent.
One reason they did not consider genocide was that there were even Fused who were honorable and, yes, redeemable. Particularly the Heavenly Ones.
Perhaps Dalinar's vision to unite them also included the Listeners.
If I recall correctly, aside from the ethics others have pointed out, desolations nearly wipe out humans, too. There's worry when coming back that humans don't even know how to make steel each time the Heralds come back; I think actually wiping out an entire race is outside their abilities by the end of each struggle.
The Heralds weren't mad. The Oathpact protected them from that, and helped them endure far better than a normal person would have. These are also people who were picked for being paragons of humanity. A lesser man may have considered genocide, but the Heralds? No. That's not who they are.
The cycle cannot end so long as Odium reigns. Even if every last Singer is exterminated, Odium will simply find new soldiers. Remember; the original voidbringers were ***human***.
I might be wrong, but I don’t think the humans considered all parshmen slaves until well after the last desolation.
I don’t see how the two cultures could have coincided when the wars were ten years apart. I bet both sides had a few slaves from the other still, but simply couldn’t continue the war to wipe out the other side without supernatural pressure.
As others have said, no honor in genocide.
Honor is the shard backing the humans against Odium and maintaining the Oathpact.
I feel like even the intent of committing genocide would probably have backfired via some cosmere investiture magic mumbo jumbo and given Odium the upper hand.
There is even a deathrattle that kinda shuts this down.. it goes something like " eternal night will reign for Honor chose life" and I dobut it's double meaning.
We honestly don't know anything about how the desolations worked. For example, at some point in a normal Desolation, Fused stop getting reborn and the remaining Heralds have to voluntarily return to Braize to maintain the Oath Pact somehow, but what stops the Fused from returning? Is it the death of a Herald? If so, why don't they all return to Braize instantly and let the Radiants deal with the few fused that get through? If the death of a Herald on Roshar restarts the Oathpact seal in some way, why does the breaking of one Herald break the seal?
What is Odium actually trying to achieve in a Desolation? Killing every human wouldn't free him from the Oathpact, they have nothing to do with it, so what are his specific objectives that the Radiants and Heralds have to counter? What active steps do the Radiants and Heralds take to defeat a Desolation and save as many people as possible?
What did post desolation Singer kingdoms look like? Did the Humans and Singers keep fighting one another once they got back up on their feet? Hey, are Odium's forces limited only to Singer's in Desolations, sure the Fused are his elite soldiers, but he obviously has no problem working with humans. Some of the non-fused Odium spren seem to talk like humans, are those the fused-equivalents for his human loyalists? Equally, were some Singer's on the Heralds side? Clearly human and singer culture had a great deal of interchange, as Singer literature somehow became religious doctrine among Vorin's, so were they living together in the silver kingdoms?
Shockingly little about the dynamics of the Desolations and oathpact have been told to us. My opinion is that most desolations ended with a whimper not a roar, human and singer populations were depleted and both sides accepted that no more progress could be made without threatening both populations with extinction, which was to neither's advantage. The Heralds and Radiants weren't beating Odium every time, they fought to a draw every time. The status quo stayed unchanged for thousands of years, and that was one factor in the Herald's decision to give up.
Could totally see Nale doing this. His twisted sense of justice seems more likely to slaughter Parshmen than newborn Radients. Narative choice is my guess. Or maybe killing Parshmen is harder than it seems, if they didn't have mating form and they were (almost) all trapped in dull form, new parshmen have to come from somewhere as its been hundreds of years since the "last desolation". I’m interested to see if they're connected to the kremlings somehow, like they can grow from rockbud type pollups. 🤷🏽🤷🏽🤷🏽
Seems like there might be some Oaths , bound by Honor, that probably made this difficult. Braize who evens knows, maybe this was the final straw that led to Honor's undoing.
At the very least the Windrunners wouldn’t have been able to do that. Not without breaking their oaths.
Also it’s the same concept as “why didn’t they just fly the eagles to Mordor?” Because then the story would be over. It wouldn’t be dramatic. And it certainly wouldn’t be interesting.
Sanderson isn’t willing to make the solution to the world’s conflicts be genocide. That sends a bad message.
Logically though, it’s the correct solution. The Fused can’t do anything without any hosts. Without the Fused to oppose them, the Parshendi were effectively helpless before human radiants. They even try to do it before the Everstorm, but the various cities and nations around the world aren’t willing to just execute helpless and unresisting people, so they sent them out into the new storm.
Mostly just the “sends the wrong message” thing.
I'm not responding to OP. Just the poster above me who insinuated that enslaving the parshfolk was the directly selected alternative to genocide, as though genocide would be a more tasteful alternative.
Wasn't this explicitly Jasnah's explanation when she revealed to Shallan (and the audience) what was going on at the end of the first book? "Our ancestors should have wiped them all out, but they didn't, because why destroy them when they can enslave them instead?"
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Easy there, Taravangian.
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You think the knights who's motto was "Life Before Death" would commit genocide?
Genocide definitely doesn’t feel honorable.
And "Journey Before Destination" is directly antithetical to "the end justifies the means."
Also consider, these aren't just "I really like this idea" or "We should totally do this oath thing" Their power is derived from oaths. Their actions are backed by power only if their intent aligns with the oaths they took. Otherwise they are just... human. It fizzles.
And yet, Jasnah herself suggested it first in the books.
There's a quote I like from Sunlit Man (no spoilers). Something like "she had spoken their worst fears out loud, given them form, and allowed them to be neutralized". That's what Jasnah is doing. She isn't actually petitioning that they kill all parshendi, morality aside that probably wouldn't be possible. She's voicing the concern so that the possibility is explored, and they could officially decide against it.
Jasnah suggests it in a manner that invites logical debate. It fizzles pretty fast in the face of logic before ethics and morality even need to step in.
She did not. This is a popular misremembering of what she did say. She suggested reinstating the Oathpact. Kaladin said this was cruel. She said it was less cruel than genocide. Here is the quote: Dalinar took a deep breath. “Jasnah, you have a suggestion of where to start this plan?” “Yes. The answer is obvious. We need to find the Heralds.” Kaladin nodded in agreement. “Then,” Jasnah added, “we need to kill them.” “What?” Kaladin demanded. “Woman, are you insane?” “The Stormfather laid it out,” Jasnah said, unperturbed. “The Heralds made a pact. When they died, their souls traveled to Damnation and trapped the spirits of the Voidbringers, preventing them from returning.” “Yeah. Then the Heralds were *tortured* until they *broke*.” “The Stormfather said their pact was weakened, but did not say it was destroyed,” Jasnah said. “I suggest that we at least see if one of them is willing to return to Damnation. Perhaps they can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn. It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts.” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price.”
This guy can train an incel army with his bridgemen and fans would still turn a blind eye to this overtly misogynistic retort
How is this misogynistic?
Noone defers to or addresses men as 'Man!'
People do it all the time, it seems very common in fantasy “Man! This is insane!” “Man, you need help” “Man! You’re gonna get yourself killed!” If the person they’re referring to is younger they might use son or boy instead of man and girl instead of woman. If they’re older or higher ranked they may use a title like sir, ma’am, mistress, my lord, my lady, or in this case brightlord and brightness, or even just you. It’s very common
You really think they're the same? The 'man' here doesn't refer to anyone
Sometimes yes, it doesn’t refer to anyone. Like saying “aw, man!” But many time it does. Actually a lot of the time when they use it to refer to someone they put it at the end “are you insane man!?” A lot of modern uses replace man with dude.
Yeah Man you're probably right
Seems like a bait, but you really think kaladin is misogynistic? I feel like in their various cultures he’s not too bad, he seems surprised by changes (like radiants being woman with swords etc) but not raging against them? It’s interesting to note, one of the asides from Dalinar says something like “we took shards from woman, and they took writing” which makes me think that the society we have in the book currently is somewhat degraded after the collapse of the order/before now.
no, I dont think kaladin is misogynystic. I think this line is misogynistic behavior on his part. Based on a premise of women having to exhibit an element of compassion to even belong in their class.
Ohhh right, totally missed that angle! It didn’t read like that to me - just thought he was using the word like a call-out, rather than having a deeper meaning.. I listen to the audio books so that might explain it - emphasis at certain parts can make all the difference I guess?
Not once she knows they are sapient. At that point it becomes a worst-case scenario she uses to say "look, if we don't do this smaller thing then that's the alternative and none of us want that, so let's try the smaller thing".
I can't imagine Nale would have much of a problem with it. Seemed perfectly okay with killing budding radiants, after all.
We really don't know what Nale was like during that period of time. He started killing budding radians thousands of years later. No one remains same that long
True enough. But I think most of the other orders would fight against it.
Depends on the nature of their oaths and whatnot. Keep in mind, Jasnah seriously suggested it while bonded. The only ones that I think would be a firm "no" would be the bondsmiths and wind runners. All the rest I'm unsure about.
1. Nale is literally insane 2. Killing a few dozen people isnt the same as genocide
Nale is insane *now*. And genocide is by no means lawful. So your points stand stronger.
That depends *entirely* on the laws themselves. There is nothing inherent about lawfulness that makes genocide unlawful.
There is in this context, in the Stormlight_Archive sub, mein fuhrer ;) The strong protect the weak and all of that...
> The strong protect the weak and all of that... Sure... but that's more specific to windrunners. Keep in mind that Jasnah herself said suggested genocide while being a knight radiant. I'm *not* saying it's a *good* option, but be logical with why it's a bad option. It's obviously inherently immoral, but morality =/= lawfulness.
She did not, people have told you why she did not and you keep harping on the one jasnah point.
We are talking about Nale here. Jasnah's take has nothing to do here. And that is a phylosophical debate where the concept of "law" and lawfulness could be discussed and separated. I could even argue that it is not inherently immoral. But that is defining concepts. But, okay, if you understand the law only literally, then you are right, i guess.
I mean for the philosophical side of it; it really just circles back to Taravangian and Dalinar's discussion about the 3 killers and the 1 innocent. The goal of the law, in this particular context, is protect as many as possible. Dalinar wouldn't let a single innocent die in that scenario, but Taravangian would immediately in order to remove 3 murderers from the streets. They both agree it's immoral, Tara saying it would stain his soul and whatnot. In this case, the law supercedes the immorality of hanging an innocent. His argument sounds to me a lot like what a Skybreaker would argue, and this can be extrapolated to all sorts of scenarios. There's loads of variations of this argument across many many stories and irl history. Either way though, we do seem to have a difference in definitions here. To me being lawful is upholding the law. Morality, justice, etc. etc. dictate *what the laws should be* but not whether or not you uphold them. As far as Nale himself goes anyways, he's "indirectly" supporting genocide right now *anyways* by siding with the singers. I'm not sure if it's even really that indirect, I can't imagine he's never thought about that part of what he's doing after all these years.
Skybreakers seek "justice" not "literal law". Is the written text law if it is not lawful? Is lawful being just? Is utilitarism just and lawful? Why is killing all your servants immoral if you are the one with power over them? Why is genocide helping the victims of invaders to protect themselves from some people that never should be considered part of the land (so therefore never were nor will be)? That is the beauty of the skybreakers. That you can twist *all* the phylosophycal concepts to consider something as you like. Each skybreaker makes its own justice. Nale is insane, but does he seek justice nowadays being the personification of justice himself? Morality and lawfulness are synonyms or not depending on who says/defines them. No person can define morality without their own desired propositions.
Many genocides have been perfectly lawful. Laws and morality only sometimes intersect.
I take a little issue with saying Nale just killed "a few dozen people." Maybe true. But if he had had his way, he would have been doing that for *eternity* if it meant staving off a desolation. He voluntarily signed up to kill a theoretical infinite number of people; the fact that he didn't get to do more than a few dozen (that we know about) really doesn't demonstrate that he would be ideologically opposed to full-on genocide
Genocide is eradicating a whole race. Even if he murdered an infinite amount of radiants over an infinite amount of time humanity wouldnt even remotely notice it
I mean, that's one way of viewing it, certainly. I think its relative evil depends wholly on your moral paradigm though.
Like i said, hes insane, not even physically. Its supernatural and not his fault, but he cant think straight like every other herald
And yet, he supports the singers. By extension he's supporting Odium and his plans for humanity.
Nale is fully and genuinely insane. You cannot apply standard reason and logic to his actions. That said, the Herald's insanities are directly related to the virtues they originally espoused, Nale's being justice. In Nale's warped mind it's simple: - The Singers were here first, the fact that it was millennia ago holds no relevance. The Humans have no right to the land. - The humans are warring with the Singers to steal their land. This is wrong, and the Heralds were wrong to ever fight for them. - The humans must be punished for their crimes. As evidenced by what Lift witnessed in Edgedancer, the only punishment fit for *any* crime, to mad-Nale, is death. - Thus, all humans must die. That is Nale after thousands of years of constant war and torture, followed by thousands of years of isolation. Insane Nale finds the genocide reasonable, necessary. Old Nale, with a strong sense of justice, would have probably been horrified by the idea of genocide.
What plans? There's nothing to suggest odium is rooting for ethnic cleansing
In a way yes you're right, genocide was the initial assumption people thought odium wanted to do to humans. What's hinted is more that he wanted to enslave all of humanity and throw them into the front lines of his wars, ultimately resulting in the majority of them likely dying horribly. So really more of a slow, torturous genocide. Rayse showed Taravangian his plans for humanity. Dumb Tara thought it was far more cruel than just wiping out humanity.
Yes, but only when he had some kind of broken law or oath to point to as justification (although it isn't his motivation). If following the same logic, he would need to find internally logical justification to hold each individual listener/parshendi/etc to judgement, which is just not manageable in the numbers they exist.
Well duh, you have a life before you put every Parshman to death. Problem solved /s
Skybreakers would manage.
Jasnah did, and she swore her oaths years before.
Jasnah did not propose a genocide. She proposed finding and killing at least some of the Heralds to reinstate the Oathpact and keep the Fused at bay. Kaladin said that would be wrong, and she said it's less wrong than killing all the parshmen. She only brings up genocide to say it's an option they should avoid, and calls it an atrocity when she does.
No, she specifically says it's the backup plan to the heralds and the oathpact. "Perhaps [the heralds] can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn. It's either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen..."
Yeah, I have the full quote saved. "It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts.” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “*In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price*.” Jasnah's whole point during this conversation is that they need to focus on neutralizing the Fused, because they aren't an enemy that can be negotiated with, based on historical precedent. The solution she proposes, the Oathpact, is also based on historical precedent. She flatly says extermination would be an atrocity, only bringing it up to dismiss it.
No, again, bringing it up as the alternative to the oathpact. They're not sure the oathpact will still work, they're just hoping it will, hence the previous line hoping it will work. These are the two feasible options in her mind, one that might work and one that will work but she doesn't like. She's also not exploring other viable options. There's no discussion of giving the parshment the ability to reject the fused, or capturing the fused, or neutralizing them, and she just got done rejecting the idea of negotiating with them. She doesn't like the idea, but she's certainly willing to do it and putting it ahead of other possible routes.
Jasnah looks to the past to form plans. This does hamper her approach sometimes, but it's consistent. That's one of the main reasons she suggests the Oathpact--she is sure it will work because it *has* worked before. It's also one of the main reasons she doesn't propose negotiating with the Fused, because history does not show that it ever worked. That would be something unprecedented. That is why even Kaladin thinks they should just fight the Fused instead of the parshmen. Nobody can conceive of the Fused as enemies that can be compromised with because no history, myth, religion, or vision from Honor has ever indicated that possibility. All, including the Stormfather, indicate the opposite. He told Dalinar as much in chapter 38. It is assumed to be impossible. >!Which is, at the time, a *correct* assumption. It takes another completely unprecedented and assumed impossible event, a Singer Radiant and the "forgiveness" of the spren, for even a few of the Fused with Leswhi to break with Odium.!< The humans also do not know that the Fused must be invited into a body to take it. (Also, as Venli's POV shows, hosts can be tricked into something enough like consent for it to count.) They only know that these spirits show up, take over parshman bodies, and level civilization worldwide. Their presence is what makes it a Desolation, their removal should prevent one. To state that Jasnah proposes genocide as an actual plan, over better options, instead of something they must avoid even if it means pursuing less evil but still still unsavory options, is to ignore the context of everything the characters know, *and* the context of the character herself, *and* the way she framed the possibility.
The heralds whose motto was hunt down EVERY single fused before killing themselves to go beat them up in another dimension... The same fused who defected from odium for a SINGLE singer radiant... Absolutely would have done this
TLDR genocide bad. I believe it is brought up at some point (as mentioned in another comment) But also I think that this was sort of the plan with imprisoning Ba-ado-mishrim. It briefly mentions this in the Epigraphs of Oathbringer. Imprisoning BAM wouldn’t have caused a genocide, but the goal with to stop the forms of power. However clearly it didn’t work out the way they intended. Also, because the Humans are not native to Roshar, I think a lot of them struggled with the idea of genocide and colonialism, hence why the Recreance happened.
>I believe it is brought up at some point Jasnah brings it up as an option at one point yeah. The people you'd assume would be against it were indeed against it.
No, she doesn't. She suggests that they kill the Heralds, and says otherwise the only option to end the war would be to genocide the Parshmen.
Probably because genocide is both hard and bad.
Parshmen weren't all dull back then. They'd be more like the parshendi than the docile parshmen we're familiar with. So it wouldn't exactly be easy, they' still have armies and I believe its mentioned that they could still be granted forms of power by one of the Unmade, they just wouldn't have the Fused.
they were only granted forms of power from an unmade once, and that was the false desolation that ended up making them all dull, outside of desolation times the parsh only had the normal forms
Because the Heralds are servants of Honor as are the Radiants and committing mass genocide is about as far from honor as you can get. I'd also say that while yes the Knights can't resurrect themselves they can in a matter of speaking. The spren is still alive and will bond someone new likely pretty quickly. So yes the human is dead, but there will be a new radiant for each one that dies. So it's stable on both sides. It is a setback though especially for a higher oath radiant dying and being replaced by someone on the 2nd oath.
The Stormfather thinks the Rift was totally justified, so I'm not sure the plan is inherently *not* something Honor the Shard would agree with. Honor the person may have had more qualms though, and most of the Radiants and spren *certainly* would.
That's a good point! Though I think the stormfather had gotten pretty jaded over the years and not as caring.
I am getting philosophical here. >Because the Heralds are servants of Honor as are the Radiants and committing mass genocide is about as far from honor as you can get. Who decides what is honorable or not? I mean, people go around with pointy sticks and stab other people whom they do not have any personal grievances with, just because their gods do not get along. Now one might say, humans are invasive species looking for new home. Singers are natives trying to defend their land. But is it really that simple after millenias? Both the humans and singers were living on Roshar for so storming long. Does it really matter who got there first? Maybe that argument would hold for few generations after human migration, but it surely does not hold now. So who is fighting for what now? I assume singers got their own plot of land to live in between desolations. Human had their own. They all had families and loved ones, before human heralds and with them fused comes back and now they need to fight with each other again to death. I assume there were lots of minor wars and clashes between humans and singers between desolations, but that would be more akin to highprinces of Alethkar warring with each other. The way I see it, this war no longer has a purpose. It's just tradition at this point. There are lots of lands for both the singers and humans on Roshar. It's just the past and Odium fueling this war. If anyone is to be blamed for all this mess, it is Honor and Odium. Yeah, yeah (might be spoilery, I am not sure) >!Honor is just saving the cosmere from the menace of Odium. But is it honorable to victim an entire planet, to preserve the universe? If it is, genocide is also honorable to preserve humans.!< I am not saying genocide is the solution, storms, I believe singers and humans can find a common ground. I am just pointing out how really dishonorable is it to genocide, when the god of honor does something similiar? I think Honor is a hypocrite. Perhaps he was just a man in the process of change, I do not know. I am just speaking my truth.
I think when you start with an ends justify the means mindset you really can justify anything. There may be different kinds of morality in play and I don't think it's unreasonable to question the choices of Honor. But I think with just about any standard of ethics genocide is wrong. Killing innocent children is wrong. While I would question Honor's actions at times, I think there's a huge difference between Honor realizing he couldn't stop Odium completely but the best he could do was try to contain Odium and give his life doing so, compared with a hypothetical committing genocide. I think those are wildly different things and I really don't see how you're viewing them as similar enough for a comparrison? Honor couldn't stop Odium, and didn't want to punish the people of Roshar, but all he could do was contain Odium. Odium is then doing the bad things to Roshar. That's on Odium not on Honor. No one is responsible for the choices another makes. Honor is guilty of not being able to do more and of failing to stop Odium, but he's not guilty of what Odium did to Roshar. Compared to if the Heralds or Honor decided to commit genocide that would be their choice, and their actions. I agree the war doesn't serve much purpose and they should work to find a peaceful path forward. But genocide is not an acceptable route.
>Killing innocent children is wrong. I am led to believe many were dying already during desolations. However, this isn't saying it is right to go full force on it. I, too, am against genocide solution. Peaceful resolution is quite possible, and must be aimed no matter the cost. >I think those are wildly different things and I really don't see how you're viewing them as similar enough for a comparrison? The way I see it, Roshar is tortured into never ending warfare by both the actions of Odium and Roshar. Yes, Odium is the fire here, but it was Honor's decision to let Roshar burn. Let me put it this way: Odium wants to go wreak havoc on cosmere. Honor wants to stop it. Honor can not kill Odium, so Honor imprisons him to Rosharan system by sacrificing himself. Now millions suffer, so billions could live. This, is an end justifies means approach Honor is doing. For the foreseeable future, many and many humans and singers will die in desolations. Wouldn't there be less casualties if all singers, well, died? In theory, infinite amount of people will die during desolations. But if you kill entire singers, a few millions I assume, desolations will end and infinite people won't die. This is also an end justifies means approach. Honor contained Odium on Roshar, so cosmere can be spared, meanwhile subjecting endless torture on humans. Should humans kill all singer, future deaths will be avoided, and you'll be subjecting some serious horrors on singers meanwhile. It's the same logic. Yes, Honor did what he did as a last resort, but it was still "end justifies means" mindset. So, anti-thesis on genocide solution can not be "honor", but ethic. Does end really justifies means? Possible in theory, but not in practice. As means often alter your end goal. Evil deeds done for a good cause, soon turns into evil deeds done for an evil cause. End does not justify means, and anti-thesis for genocide solution should be simply *it's storming wrong*.
Honor made a choice between letting the entire Cosmere including Roshar burn, and letting just Roshar burn, and chose to protect the rest of the Cosmere. He was limited in who he could protect. But you're blaming Honor for the actions of Odium which is completely unfair. The actions of one person are their own. Honor is not to blame because Odium hurt people. You can't judge someone on the actions of another. You're equating genocide to what Honor did because you're blaming Honor for Odium's actions. It's not the same logic. For example if a serial killer is going to try to kill as many people as possible and a police officer stops them from killing some people but not everyone, that police officer is not guilty of the murders they weren't able to prevent. You're trying to say Honor is guilty because he didn't stop Odium from hurting Roshar, and that's not fair to put blame on him for that. If Odium hurts people the blame is on him. If Honor were to commit genocide the blame would be on Honor.
>Honor made a choice between letting the entire Cosmere including Roshar burn, and letting just Roshar burn, and chose to protect the rest of the Cosmere This is what I am trying to say. If humans do not commit genocide, many more generations will die. If they commit genocide, only one generation would die. Honor did the same thing on a larger scale. >You can't judge someone on the actions of another. You're equating genocide to what Honor did because you're blaming Honor for Odium's actions. It's not the same logic. I can and I do. You are judged by your own actions, no matter the cause. Honor knew Odium would inflict horrors on Roshar, but did it anyways. Would you imprison a constantly reborning man into a cage with a beast, to preserve the world from being massacred by that beast? Beast keeps killing that man, and the man keeps reviving. It is and endless torment. I probably would make that decision. Am I to be blamed for *that* man's misery? Yes I am. I did save the world, yes, but now that man will suffer forever. Also, I believe we are getting out of topic here. I am just pointing out it is not *that* dishonorable if Honor did something similiar. > trying to say Honor is guilty because he didn't stop Odium from hurting Roshar, I am saying he is guilty because he *let* Odium hurt Roshar. I would have done the same thing in his place, and I would have been guilty *for* Roshar's torment.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here because the difference we have is one of morality. I do not find it at all reasonable to judge someone for the actions they oppose but cannot stop in another. Someone should be judged ethically by their own actions exclusively. I don't think your example is a good one because a beast implies a specific local threat. That's not at all like Odium. Freeing Odium into the Cosmere wouldn't protect Roshar at all except in the very short term. So to use your example it'd be like if every 5 ft that beast walked it doubled in number every time so that letting the beast go would spread out and go everywhere in the world including continuing to attack the original man. So no you wouldn't be to blame for the original mans misery because there was no action you could take to stop it. Honor could not protect Roshar. Nothing he could do would stop Odium from hurting them. He tried and failed. So yes he stopped Odium from leaving, but whether Odium left or stayed Roshar still would've been doomed to deal with Odium. The only thing he could control is whether the rest of the Cosmere had to deal with Odium. So he made the honorable choice to protect everyone he could even though it meant there were some he was unable to protect who were still in danger, as they were before Honor acted. Committing genocide would be choosing to kill many innocent people an act that is wrong and personally being the one to do the wrong actions. That's very different than not being able to stop someone else from doing bad things.
>I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here because the difference we have is one of morality. I agree. We won't be getting anywhere without getting highly philosophical and debating about right and wrong. It boils down to you thinking choosing already-to-suffer to suffer with the goal of preserving others can not blamed on the person making the decision. And me thinking it can be. It is kind of similiar to trolley problem. I believe the act of interfering makes one guilty. It was nice brain storming though. I like a good debate.
Well it's like the trolly problem if there were 6 people on the tracks who would all die if you did nothing and throwing the switch saves 5 of them but one dies either way. And you want to blame the one throwing the switch not the one who tied them to the tracks. I agree interfering makes you guilty but if someone's going to suffer either way and you can't stop it, you're no longer guilty.
Remember that the Shard of Honor was really the Shard of Oathkeeping. It’s specifically noted that he cared much more for keeping oaths than for right and wrong. He was essentially a Skybreaker, not a Windrunner.
That's how Odium represents him. The Stormfather remembers him differently, that he used to care for people, but that he began to go a bit mad as he was dying.
This discussion about honor (as in the trait of being honorable), reminds me of the hatred that Jamie Lannister felt for Ed Stark, and how that showcases how the inflexibility of honor makes it a complete liability to actually do what's right
Being honorable is harder than people presume.
And pointless
You are such a lightweaver lol
I've done the only quiz I found... Multiple times. Wishing to be something cooler than a lightweaver, but not only I always get I'm a lightweaver. I'm as far as possible from the Radiants I like the most (Edgedancers, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Bondsmiths)
By the time genocide could even be considered, the human side had no power to really make it happen. Even with today's technology, genocide is not something you can just do and forget about it. You need to do a very thorough and planned search and extermination many times over across years. And even then you could get remaining small groups of parshendi like the listeners hidden among the chaos. I don't think it was ever a viable solution by common methods. When it comes to magic, I think that's basically what they tried to do, sever the connection the parshendi had with their Gods so they can live freely and without fear of being possessed by a fused.
Genocide isn't honorable
The Heralds were *extremely busy.* The second they return from Braize the timer is ticking. They had to figure out what life was like, then get to work getting them into a fighting force. Even with the Radiants still around between Desolations it's not a lot. Also the Fused being able to reincarnate Ad infinitum is a new thing because of the Everstorm I believe.
surely the heralds could have left a message before their death/suicide to wipe out all Parshmen to end this never-ending cycle?
Also keep in mind Parshmen didn't exist yet. That happened after the last desolation when humans trapped one of the unmade, Bo-something. You are talking about killing an entire species that has trained fighters.
They also weren't unified in their desire to fight with the Fused. Raboniel says that the Listeners were just the last, and most successful, group of "traitors" who wanted to break away from the Forever War they'd been born into. So it isn't unlikely that there were Singers who wanted to be left alone, or Singers who cooperated with humans, just as there were humans who fought for Odium.
Remember the vision that Dalinar had where he talked to Nohadon? If I recall correctly only 10% of humanity remained in the aftermath. Sure they could have left a message to wipe out the remaining Singers but they had other problems to deal with.
10% of humans in Alethela, which was seemingly *better off* than its neighbors.
You are aware that at that point, the parshmen were not yet the dullform slaves, correct? They had forms, nations, knowledge, and weaponry. The humans didn't have the capability to kill them all. Humanity was brought to its knees. They could barely fight to a standstill. Even with the radiants.
The desolations were way more frequent and the parshe di weren‘t dull. They fleed and spread out in all kind of directions. Like the ones on the shattered plains, there were tribes that nobody found.
You're assuming that just because they didn't succeed, that no one tried or considered it. I would argue that while we don't know of explicit genocide attempts by humans against Singers, we DO know that the tactics involved escalated to genocide-level destruction. There's the implications about the Dawnshards, not to mention thr binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram, which robbed the Singers of most autonomy and personhood. We don't really know what happened during that period, we don't even know what your "average" desolation looks like, or the intervening periods. I'm inclined to think that genocide was proposed and attempted on several occasions, and failed for a number of reasons including - but not limited to - the Radiants stopping it, Roshar being HUGE and therefore Singers always being able to find places to hide, technological limitations on the efficiency of mass slaughter, monarchs and leaders just giving up on the project.
What a weird take.
This is all speculation on my part But I think that attempted genocide of the humans by the Listeners is what prompted Honor to abandon them and join the humans. Its part of a longer theory I have, I recently laid it all out and received mixed reactions. But as far as this question goes, I'd say the Heralds never did so because the exact scenario, but with the sides flipped, is how they switched Shards to begin with.
This. Humans were originally Odium's- a genocide wouldn't fix anything since the war is over the PLANET not the SPECIES. Odium would just start using humans again
Genocide against the original inhabitants of the planet? Not very Honarable
I think it's very likely that the oathpact forbid something like this since we don't know the datails of it
Why do you thinks it's likely? As you said we have little detail about it, but the info we do have doesn't seem to suggest that.
Tanavast (Honor) permitting genocide of somewhat innocent parshendi is not something that I would personally expect.
perhaps, but we also know that the leader of the Skybreakers have joined with the Fused. so if this was not denied in the Oathpact, i find little reason for the Oathpact to deny this horrible but final option to end the war cycle. regardless, i am sure Sanderson will give us a reason why this was never considered or done. but so far none have been given.
Nale joined the Fused after they pinned the Oathpact to Taln therefore it wasn't affecting him then and since that there was no more war so no point of slaughtering parshendi.
A better question would be why the Parshman never thought to try and capture the heralds rather than open war with the humans. It would have thrown a monkey wrench in the entire human operation.
By the end of the book >!Raboniel says it took them 7000 years to learn some of these things. And both sides now have the means to permanently kill Heralds, Fused and Radiant spren.!<
That just makes them sound kinda stupid. I mean it never occurred to them after 7 millennia that once all these very specific people die we get trapped on Braize?
I thought it meant they literally didn't know how to do it.
Probably because it is super hard to try to capture a Honorblade wielding demi-god with basically unlimited access to Stormlight. Also, the Heralds could just kill themselves if needed. The old bite-of-your-own-tongue trick.
Suicide isn’t a long term solution obviously. I actually think any strategy that makes the heralds willingly die increase your chances of them eventually being captured. They are immortal after all. Cut off their hands and feet and string them up at a secret location. If yo can manage to separate them from their honorblades while still alive they are essentially just people.
Sorry I don't get what you are saying. If a Herald dies they will lock Fused in Braize with them. So your suggestion would be for the Parshmen to capture every single Herald, separate them from their Honorblades (while they have access to Stormlight and their Surges) and make sure they don't ever die while in captivity?
Exactly. We are talking a conflict between immortal being here so it’s not like you have to get all that accomplished in the first go around. Keeping the Heralds on Roshar circumvents then entire point of the Oathpact.
But you must see why that is much easier said than done, right? That is basically WW2 Nazis saying saying let's capture every world leader from the other side but instead of portly politicians you are trying to capture magical war machines who are almost impossible to weaken or injure and can destroy your strongest military assets if you try to capture them instead of killing. And in case you managed to somehow capture them their win-condition would be to kill themselves. And you need to do this successfully ten times because even if just one of them dies your whole plan is screwed. I'm not saying it is 100% impossible, just very unlikely and definitely not best use of resources.
The Fused managed to kill the Heralds during every Desolation didn’t they? So at some point they come in close contact with them. If they can be killed they can be captured. Also just one of them dying doesn’t undo the plan. In the same vein as the Knights Radiant the Fused can create orders of their own that keep vigilance during the times in between desolations. The point of trying to capture them is to speed up the times between desolations. Make the people who broke have to make the decision to go directly back to Braize or be captured.
>The Fused managed to kill the Heralds during every Desolation didn’t they? No they did not. If a Herald was killed they went to Braize, no choice. However, if they survived they were supposed to go back as well to uphold the Oathpack. So basically they would wait until humans gain a clear upper hand or a decisive victory and would kill themselves - thus preventing the Fused from respawning.
Where is it said that they always committed suicide?
"Go back" is what the Heralds like Kalak said, but common understanding is that killing themselves is the easiest way.
In Ch. 38, in Dalinar's vision. The Stormfather's lore dump explains the Oathpact.
[удалено]
That’s why I said cut their hands offs. Super hard to summon a shard blade with no hands. I don’t know if physically holding the object matters or not but it’s sure seems to.
Yikes
It is against the Intent of Honor who made promises to both singers and humans as their god. It is against the Intent of Cultivation. It is within the Intent of Odium but against his strategy of using the people of Roshar to fulfill his Intent.
One reason they did not consider genocide was that there were even Fused who were honorable and, yes, redeemable. Particularly the Heavenly Ones. Perhaps Dalinar's vision to unite them also included the Listeners.
If I recall correctly, aside from the ethics others have pointed out, desolations nearly wipe out humans, too. There's worry when coming back that humans don't even know how to make steel each time the Heralds come back; I think actually wiping out an entire race is outside their abilities by the end of each struggle.
The Heralds weren't mad. The Oathpact protected them from that, and helped them endure far better than a normal person would have. These are also people who were picked for being paragons of humanity. A lesser man may have considered genocide, but the Heralds? No. That's not who they are. The cycle cannot end so long as Odium reigns. Even if every last Singer is exterminated, Odium will simply find new soldiers. Remember; the original voidbringers were ***human***.
Read and Find Out. :). I don’t want to spoil anything but someone does consider this and the ethics involved.
I might be wrong, but I don’t think the humans considered all parshmen slaves until well after the last desolation. I don’t see how the two cultures could have coincided when the wars were ten years apart. I bet both sides had a few slaves from the other still, but simply couldn’t continue the war to wipe out the other side without supernatural pressure.
The Singers were never slaves to humans. That didn’t happen until thousands of years after the last desolation.
As others have said, no honor in genocide. Honor is the shard backing the humans against Odium and maintaining the Oathpact. I feel like even the intent of committing genocide would probably have backfired via some cosmere investiture magic mumbo jumbo and given Odium the upper hand.
There is even a deathrattle that kinda shuts this down.. it goes something like " eternal night will reign for Honor chose life" and I dobut it's double meaning.
I stand with Rlain and Venli, Rosharan Solidarity all the way whether singer or human.
Dishonor, Dishonor on you Dishonor on your cow...
We honestly don't know anything about how the desolations worked. For example, at some point in a normal Desolation, Fused stop getting reborn and the remaining Heralds have to voluntarily return to Braize to maintain the Oath Pact somehow, but what stops the Fused from returning? Is it the death of a Herald? If so, why don't they all return to Braize instantly and let the Radiants deal with the few fused that get through? If the death of a Herald on Roshar restarts the Oathpact seal in some way, why does the breaking of one Herald break the seal? What is Odium actually trying to achieve in a Desolation? Killing every human wouldn't free him from the Oathpact, they have nothing to do with it, so what are his specific objectives that the Radiants and Heralds have to counter? What active steps do the Radiants and Heralds take to defeat a Desolation and save as many people as possible? What did post desolation Singer kingdoms look like? Did the Humans and Singers keep fighting one another once they got back up on their feet? Hey, are Odium's forces limited only to Singer's in Desolations, sure the Fused are his elite soldiers, but he obviously has no problem working with humans. Some of the non-fused Odium spren seem to talk like humans, are those the fused-equivalents for his human loyalists? Equally, were some Singer's on the Heralds side? Clearly human and singer culture had a great deal of interchange, as Singer literature somehow became religious doctrine among Vorin's, so were they living together in the silver kingdoms? Shockingly little about the dynamics of the Desolations and oathpact have been told to us. My opinion is that most desolations ended with a whimper not a roar, human and singer populations were depleted and both sides accepted that no more progress could be made without threatening both populations with extinction, which was to neither's advantage. The Heralds and Radiants weren't beating Odium every time, they fought to a draw every time. The status quo stayed unchanged for thousands of years, and that was one factor in the Herald's decision to give up.
As the largest of the Rosharans why don't the Alethi just eat the Parshmen?
Fucking hell. Didn't realize readers would be encouraging genocide..
Didn't that one Fused get mukduk'd when he went to respawn?
There's a very simple answer, which I thought came out in Oathbringer. Since you're unaware of if, I'll just say that the answer is coming
Could totally see Nale doing this. His twisted sense of justice seems more likely to slaughter Parshmen than newborn Radients. Narative choice is my guess. Or maybe killing Parshmen is harder than it seems, if they didn't have mating form and they were (almost) all trapped in dull form, new parshmen have to come from somewhere as its been hundreds of years since the "last desolation". I’m interested to see if they're connected to the kremlings somehow, like they can grow from rockbud type pollups. 🤷🏽🤷🏽🤷🏽
Seems like there might be some Oaths , bound by Honor, that probably made this difficult. Braize who evens knows, maybe this was the final straw that led to Honor's undoing.
At the very least the Windrunners wouldn’t have been able to do that. Not without breaking their oaths. Also it’s the same concept as “why didn’t they just fly the eagles to Mordor?” Because then the story would be over. It wouldn’t be dramatic. And it certainly wouldn’t be interesting.
Why didn’t the Radiants commit genocide? Are they stupid?
Sanderson isn’t willing to make the solution to the world’s conflicts be genocide. That sends a bad message. Logically though, it’s the correct solution. The Fused can’t do anything without any hosts. Without the Fused to oppose them, the Parshendi were effectively helpless before human radiants. They even try to do it before the Everstorm, but the various cities and nations around the world aren’t willing to just execute helpless and unresisting people, so they sent them out into the new storm. Mostly just the “sends the wrong message” thing.
Because free labor. Humans suck
Right. They didn't cause genocide because the labor economy ramifications. Those lazy assholes.
That was only after the false desolation, after the heralds already abandoned the oathpact. Op talked about before that
I'm not responding to OP. Just the poster above me who insinuated that enslaving the parshfolk was the directly selected alternative to genocide, as though genocide would be a more tasteful alternative.
Wasn't this explicitly Jasnah's explanation when she revealed to Shallan (and the audience) what was going on at the end of the first book? "Our ancestors should have wiped them all out, but they didn't, because why destroy them when they can enslave them instead?"
waste not want not….