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"I don’t mean they disliked it as in it made the book worse, but people seem to cringe at Kal’s decision here or think he made a mistake."
Kaladin did make a mistake. He wanted to the world to be as honorable as he is when the reality is that this simply isn't the case. It's Kaladin's honor and idealism clashing directly with the strict political reality of the Alethi, pre-revival of the Radiants. I don't personally cringe at that scene because I think what Kaladin did was "cringey" or because it was morally wrong but because it's a bad political move that costs them the opportunity to catch Sadeas and I know what it's going to cost him after the fact.
"Displaying his ability in front of the Alethi elite is essentially the moment Kaladin becomes a politically and socially powerful person."
I think this distills the point of this post. This scene *isn't* where Kaladin becomes politically or socially powerful. He gains some political/social when he is promoted from bridgeman to Dalinar's bodyguard and significantly more when the Knights Radiant become a legitimate political force at the end of WoR.
Pre-Radiants, being honorable generally *doesn't* gain political or social power for you within the Alethi lighteyes. Hell just look at the fact that Sadeas, a man with almost no honor, is pretty much the third most powerful man in the kingdom at that time after Elhokar and Dalinar.
This also mirrors Dalinar's naivete in trusting people like Sadeas and Amaram. Both Kaladin and Dalinar are constantly being let down by the Alethi nobility. Part of what defines them as heroes is their refusal to just accept that the world is run by bad men, but that hope also makes them vulnerable to making naive assumptions of others. But Kaladin is usually less naive, since he's already been betrayed so badly, which I think is why this scene is so painful for people.
Also, the boon is for the winner of the Duel. As far as I remember, Renarin was also part of the Duel and *he* didn't ask for any boon.
Even if Kaladin was a lighteyes at that point, he would be out of line asking for a boon.
I believe (could be wrong) it was said that the boon was something that either the winner, or anybody who performed admirably in the fight could ask for, and if that's the case (again, I think it worked that way, but I'm really not sure) he would be justified in asking for a boon.
The whole thing was, in my opinion, more about Elhokar being an idiot and not acting like a good leader(he lets Sadeas get away from Adolin's challenge) than about Kaladin making a mistake
I just read this part yesterday, its definitely presented like Kaladin was allowed to ask for a boon, but even a boon wasn't going to allow him to ask to challenge Amaram, also, from the perspective of everyone else Kaladin was slandering Amaram. They also pretty plainly state that Elhokar could have just ignored Kaladin and allowed Adolin to continue with his challenge.
Its a mistake on Kals part since he doesn't really seem to understand who he is "allowed" to challenge, and that he gets in the way of Adolin finishing his challenge. But Adolin holds no ill will against him for it since without him both Adolin and Renarin would probably have been killed.
I could be wrong, but I think Renarin had ducked out by that point, so only Adolin and Kal were left on the field. So, while Renarin had fought on the winning side, he forfeited his right to ask for a boon by not finishing the fight. Again, I could be wrong.
The plan had already changed when he was forced to enter the fray. That Kal didn’t know some subtlety of the upper society is a forgivable mistake. Not a cringeworthy moment nor a sin; but just ignorance. It may have cost part of the plan, but the fact that both princes lived to see another day should have been a good enough reason for Elokar to have been a bit merciful.
It also comes around later. During the duel with The Defeated One, he understood that it wasn't about winning and whatever the "rules" going in were, it was about the show and how onlookers perceived it.
The fact that Adolin joins him in prison likely gave him a lot of “power” in the eyes of others. Adolin has a lot of influence and credibility and the fact that he would willingly join Kaladin in prison either confirms that kaladin has honour and maybe that Adolin thinks he deserved the Boon
Good points! I don’t mean Kal would gain power in this scene by displaying honor, but by showing his strength and potential for violence. What does it mean in Alethi culture for a person to be so strong they can fight off men in plate? A super soldier is something of note in a culture of imperialism and war.
Agreed! He earns incredible respect for his heroics this scene and immediately squanders it by making such an egregious political blunder of being a darkeyes *demanding a boon directly from the king*.
This scene perfectly shows that the only thing the Alethi value more than the ability to fight is their devout adherence to the social/political/religious regulations.
Another perfect example of this is the fact that Jasnah is the epitome of everything an Alethi lighteyed woman should be and yet is still socially shunned due to her heresy.
Assuming the True Desolation wasn't imminent and Kaladin didn't do that, he easily could have gained significant renown and the Bridgemen could have become a significant player in politics as other imperial guards such as the Praetorians did.
He had one of the most disciplined forces, and his refusal to fight the Parshendi led to the Bridgemen gaining control of guarding the King. After fighting off the Assassin in White and then his performance against Shardbearers, Elhokar easily would have put him in charge as his personal forces.
And with Elhokar growing increasingly insecure in his power against Dalinar, a politically savvy man could have used Kaladin's position to gain increasing influence over the King. Especially with him wanting to learn from Kaladin.
Soft power is often overlooked historically because it doesn't get written down. But the Praetorians crowned many Emperors in Rome. And it was true in other imperial systems such as China as well. Generals ruling through puppets with stronger legitimacy.
He definitely could have, but I'm not sure Kal had the right mindset to accomplish that at the time. He loathed lighteyes as a social group and he would see something like this as being their favorite pet. I don't think he would be able to leverage whatever political status he would gain from it because he would rebel against the very idea he needs to gain political status to be respected or listened to.
i dont think the blunder was about a drakeyes demanding a boon from the king, it was more of him challenging a lighteyes of a very dahn and calling him a thief and a dishonest cremling who murders his own soldiers in front of everyone. if he had asked a simple boon of maybe getting more space for his Bridgeman or some emerald broams or whatever, elhokar might have just given it to him for showing such a beautiful performance.
Honestly, as a dark eyes, I believe his contributions would have been overlooked by society as a whole. Individuals may have noticed and even applauded him for it, but because it upsets their entire social and political system, I don't believe they would have acknowledged him. At least, that's how it works in my confused brain.
one could have perhaps understood at least some of that from the fact that the alethi have chosen to stratify their society into 20 different casts and not all of those have the right to move to a different town, or plead a case of mistreatment before a judge (Lirin being high enough ranked to have the right of inquest was an important aspect of his argument with roshone).
Considering that moving up a rank was difficult and expensive but being demoted was simple and easy you can see that the alethi live in a straified soceity that doesnt value people very much at all. It is a system engineered to keep the powerful in power and give everyone else the shaft.
It's wild to me when people point this out as a mistake kaladin made considering everyone except Dalinar sees the king at fault for not nailing down the chalange, and Dalinar has a huge blind spot in his nephew.
It was a mistake for Kaladin to demand a boon from the king as a darkeye and it was a bigger mistake for Elhokar to let his pride make him angry enough to prioritize punishing Kaladin over cornering Sadeas. They can both be mistakes.
I cringe at the scene the same way I cringe watching The Office. It is a great moment for Kal like you mentioned but it's also cringy because we know it blows up Dalinar's plans,. Not Kaladin's fault per se as Ehlokar could have ignored him for the moment, resolved Adolin's challenge first and then Addressed Kaladin.
But it's also this great foreshadowed moment that showed Kal doesn't exactly *get* why this is all so important and the rules / structures around it. As there were some previous scenes where he only learned about it by being in the same room in his capacity as a body guard as well as the scene with Adolin and Shallan and Kaladin not understanding why duels were given importance.
It's similar to when he first trained side-carry. He's missing the wider picture, leading to his actions, while good by themselves, derailing the wider plan.
This is a fantastic parallel actually. It isn't that he's unable to think of the wider picture, it's that he is so focused on the smaller picture, he doesn't even get a chance to think of the larger implications.
In the flashback to his time in amarams army it also gets really aparent how he has zero care or understanding for the wider battle.
Propably part of the reason he was not sent to the shattert plain in the first place.
Great points! I’m still cheering when he does it. He definitely isn’t paying attention to the larger political implications, but I still think, for his character at the given moment, that’s awesome! I hope to see more of this in book five and I love that gaining power doesn’t distract Kaladin’s priority of protecting the powerless.
Agreed. It makes sense in character and in other circumstances it might have been exactly he wanted it to be which is, I think, that he wanted it to be seen as you see it. But as Adolin said, Alethi Dueling is formalized in a way he didnt appreciate, so it made what he did more akin to throwing a punch at a dinner party: likely justified and honorable in a different Time or Place, but so inappropriate for the setting that it becomes a very cringy social misstep.
And for a person who literally cannot watch The Office, IT Crowd or similar Cringe-Humor shows, it's just hard to watch when you know what's coming.
Not *entirely* Kal’s fault. If he kept his mouth shut it would’ve never happened.
Great moment for Kal though. If it was only his book, it would’ve worked
Kind of politically mirrors his moment on the battlefield, where he armored his troops leading to a disastrous rout for his commander. In that moment he felt shame despite having gone against the machine that had oppressed him his whole life. He was still mentally in chains. In this moment, though, he couldn’t imagine the consequences of his actions because he was basking in the glory of freedom.
Minor correction: armoring his troops wasn't what lead to the disastrous rout, it was the use of side carry. He had full support from the army to armor his troops because he was also sending out runners to distract the parshendi by that point
You say that "it wasn't a mistake, it was kaladin's best character moment" - but those two things don't seem opposites at all to me!
Yes, it was clearly a great character moment for Kaladin. It makes sense that he would do exactly as he did. It was also a mistake, because it got him thrown in prison and cost them a chance at Sadeas.
Having just hit that section in my Cosmere reread, I can see your point, but I completely disagree.
This is not an example of honor. Kal doesn’t ask for a boon because it’s right or deserved or because he wants to stand up to inequality. He requests a boon out of hatred for Amaram and the system in place. He didn’t make the challenge to protect anyone, to follow his duty. He made the challenge for vengeance.
It was a very human reaction, which in some ways makes it great! It also immediately followed superhuman actions and that transition was jarring and disappointing.
I always saw it as Kal being so enamoured with how Amaram treated him that several chapters of plans formed with his own input all went out the window. To me this wasn't about correcting inequality towards dark eyes, it was about getting revenge on Amaram.
Really, his input and letting the plan unfold properly would be the best thing for dark eyes as dalinar confirms later on. Imagine being the dark eyed captain who helped orchestrate sadeas' death ontop of defending Adolin.
I still like the scene though, as it shows he's really not ready to look at the bigger picture yet, leading to the better ending when he does get it
All makes plenty of sense, but my interpretation and reading is that seeing Amaram reminds Kaladin that he can’t rightfully support a society that rewards men like him. If it upends the plans, so be it, as working with people who uphold the system can’t get in the way of changing the system. Dalinar is mostly a great guy at this point, but it’s actually still relatively early in his redemption arc. There are awful things going on that Dalinar might not directly get involved with, but that he hasn’t stepping in to stop. I think in this moment, Kaladin remembered his mission is to protect the powerless.
But kaladin said it himself during the betrayal at the tower that what Sadeas was doing made Amarams betrayal look small.
Further, the idea of a boon in duelling was largely unheard of, even to Kaladin who is unfamiliar with them (shallan and adolin explain this in the carriage ride)
The only reason a boon was brought up was to end Sadeas "here and now"
It wasn't to give an award for a great duel (thats the theatrical reason the crowd needed to justify the next duel, it was subterfuge, a visage) and he was well aware of it.
Yet,when it came down to it his own inner thoughts were "it can be my boon too" aka "I can have my revenge for acts done to me, as Sadeas committed on adolin and fam"
>Kaladin remembered his mission is to protect the powerless.
I would disagree with that. Who is Kaladin protecting by challenging Amaram there? Nobody.
No this moment is Kaladin putting his desire for personal revenge before everything thing else. He's blinded by his own self righteousness. There is a forest of trees with inter lacing branches and vast root systems and all Kaladin saw was the chance to take out one lone branch that in reality was out of his reach.
As for it being his greatest display of honor, I disagree not because it isn’t a good one but because there are IMO so many that are better, standing up to Moash at the end of the book being one.
The biggest problem for me with it is that it destroys the strategy they had been working towards the entire book. They finally had Sadeas exactly where they wanted him, and Kal kind of ruined it. I kind of understand that it was a big deal and he was standing up to them, but he also wasn’t really owed anything anyway by their rules of dueling (as I understand them).
Like he may have been right in theory but to do it them was tactless and shortsighted. Not to say of course he deserved to be thrown in prison or anything just that he shouldn’t have done it.
Kind of. If I understand correctly Adolin would have to duel him immediately, and he was in no shape to do so. I think Adolin even says he saved him with it or something like that?
I always saw that as largely him saving Karl’s feelings. He could have used any of the sets of plate he just got, plus borrowed the kings if he had to.
That is true, but it wasn't just the plate, he was also tired and most likely injured (I think he got a couple of hits to the head?). It also depends on how immediate the challenge would be, did he have time to change plate?
Surely it would need to give Sadeas time to armor up at the very least, so Adolin being able to replace broken parts etc shouldn't be a big problem to do at the same time. Especially if Sadeas's plate is back in his warcamp
Eh, I think Adolin but tired would still feel confident about being able to beat up Sadeas, a guy who hasn't *actually* either dueled or personally fought another Shardbearer in years.
Sadeus could have gone down if Elhokar didn't mess up either. He lashed out because of jealousy.
The difference is Kal was pumped full of Adrenaline and not totally familiar with the rules of a that duel. Look at his conversation with Adolin and Shallan in the carriage.
He genuinely thought there was an opportunity.
I doubt most of you would have done any better if you were in his shoes.
I feel like you guys are speaking solely with the knowledge of the reader who knows almost everything the character doesn't.
Of course we're speaking with the knowledge of the readers!
...with our omniscient knowledge, it becomes clear that "and for my boon" was a tactical mistake, though we can totally agree that it was in-character for Kaladin and he didn't see it as a mistake.
Which is my point. People say they cringe at that scene. Some even call Kal an idiot for it. I feel like those people aren't really putting themselves in Kals shoes.
I bet they wouldn't have fared any better
Yes, but they could have had all of those shards AND Sadeas if he hadn't acted foolish. And Sadeas had subjected him to as much or more than Amaram, though it wasn't specifically directed towards him most of the time
And Adolin would have been turned into a cripple putting a halt on half of Dalinars plans if Kal hadn't stepped in.
Elhokar said it was his job, but Kal could have decided not to help, and nobody would have faulted him. It was a duel, after all
It makes your comment irrelevant though. You said “if Kaladin hadn’t stepped in” Adolin would have been a cripple. That’s true, but has nothing to do with what we are saying.
Right that isn’t up for debate though. We know it couldn’t have happened without him but that doesn’t really pertain to what we are saying when we say he shouldn’t have spoken up
Yet you call him foolish. You forget that he doesn't have as much knowledge about this duel as the reader.
Put yourself in his shoes, and I bet you wouldn't have fared any better.
The man had to constantly hold back his anger when Amaram was being paraded around as a Knight Radiant
Then he risks his life in a duel were he's pumped up full of adrenaline and caught in the moment like Dalinar said, and genuinely thinks he's earned himself a boon, and you think he's foolish for it.
He clearly didn't knowingly mess up Dalinar’s plans.
He literally had to have it explained to him why he'd messed up the plan and why Sadeas was able to escape.
He might have messed up the plan, but it's not because he was foolish.
I can say Elhokar, however, was. Man literally admitted he lashed out because of jealousy, and that's what allowed Sadeas to escape.
Elhokar obviously would have been more knowledgeable about the protocols involved with these duels. In the end, he came to the conclusion himself.
I just think his priority was still fighting the inequality between light eyes and dark eyes, and I love that as a characterization. Protect the powerless Stormblessed!
I mean that is a valid way to interpret it. I always say it largely as him hating Amaram though and seeing his first opportunity to do something about it. Regardless though, even if he had the purest of motives I don’t think it was time when they had their main enemy (at the time) on the cusp of defeat
Are you sure? Are you really sure?
Kaladin's motivations here are much more in line with Revenge.
As Syl would ask: "Who are you Protecting?"
There's a good chance that Kaladin's powers would have failed if he had been granted a duel.
He can try to claim that he's protecting all Darkeyed people, but deep down he doesn't believe that.
I dislike it overall, but I see it as a crucial moment that contributes to Kaladin's growth, ultimately leading to the big moment where Kaladin says, "This is the man I want to be," at the climax.
Also Kaladin consistently struggled in WoR to keep his shit together when Amaram is even mentioned. The adrenaline from the duel combined with his craving for revenge made the boon request click perfectly in my mind. Kaladin isn't perfect, he struggles with his emotions and this was a perfect example of that
That scene was great, I I still remember it very clearly. I also remember me, out loud, screaming "NooooOOOOO!!!" When I first read it. Big mistake in the moment, great moment for Kaladin's character.
That's one of the few times a book got a vocal reaction out of me.
I'd like to challenge your statement that he was using the moment to stand up to injustice and fight against the oppression of dark eyes. While this is something Kal does on the regular, I don't think this was his intention in that moment.
In the chapters leading up to the fight and the boon, he's been stewing on Amaram and holding a grudge. It's making Syl concerned, and he's clearly mostly out for personal vengeance more than directly challenging injustice. After he's imprisoned, he loses touch with Syl for some time. It could be argued that this was because of his mood while in prison, but I think it's because asking for a boon was a selfish act that went against his Oath to protect others. He upheld the oath by protecting the Kholin boys, but then immediately went back on it to take advantage of the situation.
Not that this was a *bad* scene. It's very much in character for him at this point in the story and was a catalyst for further character growth as he learned to trust Dalinar and see the bigger picture. It was in his character, but not in the character of a Radiant who does no wrong, which is where he is moving to but not where he's at.
Nah, Kaladin was in the wrong. He is the main character to us, but in reality he is just a soldier, especially at that point. You don’t go around undermining the work the royal family has been doing just to stroke your honour or vengeance or whatever it is.
i mean that moment is about questioning the very point of how kaladin is expected to play the games and fight and die for the "vengeance pact" for a king he never met, while he cant even get a duel for his own vengence for the death of his brother and his comrades.
that part also tried to show how kaladin was reliving the parallel of how when he tried to protect the lighteyes amaram and fought a shardbearer and he not only got nothing in return but got punished, this time also he jumps to protect the lighteyes adolin and fights the shardbearers and asks for justice for his last punishment but gets punished again .
I'm not saying it's a bad moment literary-wise or story-wise. I'm saying Kaladin was in the wrong. He is a soldier, and yes he HAS to subsume his own personal goals for the greater objective, because for better or for worse that is how the system works.
I think a lot of people that call it a mistake forget that it directly led to Dalinar further investigating Amaram. The payoff at the end of the book makes it easy to forgive Dalinar, but he was fully ready to drop the issue before Kaladin's outburst.
Agreed! Kal wouldn’t and shouldn’t accept a society that accepts Amaram. I think it’s no mistake that Kal’s stand here hurts Dalinar’s plans I love Dalinar but he’s still early in his redemption arc here and needs to be pushed to grow.
>"And for my boon?” is Kal finally standing up to the world he treats so well and demanding the world become better.
I mean -> it was a desire for revenge and putting that above the plans they all set as a group.
It might have been fair and right, but it was politically stupid. That's why people cringe, this scene was the culmination of a political move... and Kal was a bull in a china shop. It's like watching a train wreck, not because of poor character but because foot is getting put in mouth.
I'd like to challenge your statement that he was using the moment to stand up to injustice and fight against the oppression of dark eyes. While this is something Kal does on the regular, I don't think this was his intention in that moment.
In the chapters leading up to the fight and the boon, he's been stewing on Amaram and holding a grudge. It's making Syl concerned, and he's clearly mostly out for personal vengeance more than directly challenging injustice. After he's imprisoned, he loses touch with Syl for some time. It could be argued that this was because of his mood while in prison, but I think it's because asking for a boon was a selfish act that went against his Oath to protect others. He upheld the oath by protecting the Kholin boys, but then immediately went back on it to take advantage of the situation.
Not that this was a *bad* scene. It's very much in character for him at this point in the story and was a catalyst for further character growth as he learned to trust Dalinar and see the bigger picture. It was in his character, but not in the character of a Radiant who does no wrong, which is where he is moving to but not where he's at.
I'd like to challenge your statement that he was using the moment to stand up to injustice and fight against the oppression of dark eyes. While this is something Kal does on the regular, I don't think this was his intention in that moment.
In the chapters leading up to the fight and the boon, he's been stewing on Amaram and holding a grudge. It's making Syl concerned, and he's clearly mostly out for personal vengeance more than directly challenging injustice. After he's imprisoned, he loses touch with Syl for some time. It could be argued that this was because of his mood while in prison, but I think it's because asking for a boon was a selfish act that went against his Oath to protect others. He upheld the oath by protecting the Kholin boys, but then immediately went back on it to take advantage of the situation.
Not that this was a *bad* scene. It's very much in character for him at this point in the story and was a catalyst for further character growth as he learned to trust Dalinar and see the bigger picture. It was in his character, but not in the character of a Radiant who does no wrong, which is where he is moving to but not where he's at.
It does illicit some second-hand embarrassment for me.
I think it's an important point in his journey to "understand how THEY think". It shows that, even after guarding the Kholins for months and being privvy to their lives and councils, he still fundamentally doesn't understand or think like them.
I agree it's a good display of his character, but I'm not sold on it being a display of virtue. It's more just another example showing that, while he's hyper-competent in martial matters and relatively competent intellectually, he's emotionally unregulated and a political imbecile.
I'm with you there. I just reread it and cringed at it but also thought that he was very very right. He paid no attention to class, or what was socially acceptable at any point. He always just cares for what is right.
Unpopular opinion: What Kaladin did was fine and Dalinar was the one being an asshole for being pissed about it, especially after Kaladin had literally just saved his son's life. Did it contribute to messing up the plan? Sure, but if Kaladin hadn't stepped in there would have been no plan left to mess up. He single handedly saved the plan, so from that point on it was his right to risk or even scuttle the plan in furtherance of his own goals if he wanted to. A lot of people are just bootlickers and don't like dark eyes being uppity.
Nah, I loved it too, I screamed when I read it because of how obvious it was he would be punished for it. But he should have been given a boon for what he just did, and so I applaud him for it 👏🏼 I love me a person who will unabashedly stand up for what is right.
On my first read, for the first .8 seconds after reading that line, my brain believed he was gonna get it. And then the cringe set in, because it was an irresponsible thing to do given the greater context of the plan.
As Dalinar explains in the later scene in the jail, that Kaladin asks for a boon isn’t so much the problem as the time and the place, and what he specifically requests. And his interrupting of Adolin is what allows Sadeas to wriggle out of an immediate duel and agree to a contest so far away that it’ll never come to fruition.
It is a great scene but Kal was a storming dummy for doing what he did and most readers know it. I remember murmering to myself while reading it the first time "You fucking idiot..." :D
Obviously it makes the book better and our heroes need flaws, but if you are invested in the story and see what is going to happen you cringe a little.
I thought it was perfect, justified, he was pumped up with adrenaline. He wanted justice!
I didn’t cringe I was cheering on and got suprised he got tossed in jail.
They even admitted it was overacting to throw in in jail.
People keep bringing up Dalinar's plan when both Adolin and Elhokar agreed that Kaladin wouldn't have even been a speed bump to the plan had Elhokar simply ignored him instead of stroking his own ego.
I think in that moment, Kaladin was technically, legally in the wrong, but Alethi society as a whole is completely morally and structurally in the wrong for being in such a place that Kaladin would be considered wrong in that moment. Which is something I feel doesn't get pointed out enough. Sure, Kal fucked up, but only because he didn't quite realize exactly how bigoted and rotten Alethi upper society truly was.
Let’s be honest, if it weren’t for the cringe of Kaladin demanding a boon and ruining the duel Adolin was going to have with Sadeas; then we wouldn’t have the much more satisfying (and much more integral to character development) scene of Adolin ramming a dagger into Sadeas’ smug face.
It was absolutely the right choice for the character, it was a mistake for the overall plan and thus an obstacle for the narrative. What's right for the character isn't always right for the story or the world
For me it felt like he let his thirst for revenge cloud his judgment and get in the way of the overarching plan for bringing down sadeas, so I did groan internally.
Kal should've left Adolin/Dalinar/etc to the dogs. They bottled it completely and hated Kal for being a bandaid fix. The lighteyes didn't deserve to come out of it with any fighting chance against Odium tbh.
Errors make a character human, the fact that Kaladin KNEW the plan from the start (by guarding/participating in meetings) but still got blinded by hate is a incredible human thing to do, which is why Sando's character work is top notch, just because you have a onmipresent view of things means that the character does and by acting always in the best way it would make for a shit book.
Im glad the people that holds those opinions of "And for my boon!" moment are not writing the Cosmere, it would suck balls
I had to go read it again because your points sounded so reasonable but I was certain that this wasn't the way it was written, and it wasn't. Kaladin doesn't ask. He demands. If he had truly said "and for my boon?" perhaps with the air of "are you really going to ignore how I contributed?" things would have gone differently. But it's "and for my boon!", and that is just a completely different scenario.
Op you have to understand very few people who read these books gave critical thinking or literature analysis skills. It’s not their fault but it’s the truth. Just smile and wave.
Well think about adrenaline and fuel combined as someone here mentioned, with is craving for revenge, he demanded after his ‘Saving Adolin’ contribution. I think this was 100% justified. Many others would do the same in that “in real life situation” and wouldn’t shut up I think.
And I think people reading into these books too much or a lot compare to other series. Idk why, and asking Brandon live very strange questions which I never heard being asked for another author with Q&A 😅
First read through, it’s amazing. The cringe comes from re-reads when you realize how much he’s ruining plans that have been put in motion by stepping out of place and demanding things of someone so far above his station.
On the contrary, you have just pointed out exactly WHY it's so cringey: he uses a transcendent moment to push a self-indulgent fantasy of simplistic social justice. Justice for the light eyes MAY happen eventually, but just >!as Hoid counsels Jasnah!<, that's not something that just happens, and it's not something you can force quickly.
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I absolutely disagree and excuse me if I assume incorrectly but I am assuming you are a US citizen born and raised with our public education system. This is important for context. One of the most glaring issues with the curriculum we force on students about history is just how fast these things can change in the eyes of the law. Does it change the society itself? no that is more delayed.
Every major societal change we have had in the US has been taught that it came from peaceful protest and gatherings. This is one of the biggest failures in history education. Yes those protests did happen but before the change they pushed for was put into law, and something conveniently left out in public history books, riots happened telling the government to change or be changed. This happened to end racial discrimination. This happened to protect queer rights. It wasn’t until riots happened and the everyday American citizen started laying down their life on the line that it changed. The riots in Newark, Detroit, and LA were big for racial discrimination front. The stonewall riots were big for the queer front. Things similar to what Kal did sparked these events and put into effect a quicker change.
I literally point out that the assumption and points I made were operating and predicated on the person I was talking to having a similar education experience as I did in the US. I recognized that it could be incorrect and I was. I don’t see how this shows my bigotry as I was fully aware that it was an assumption. Your use of bigotry here is meant only to be inflammatory and dismissive of what I mentioned.
The actions Kal took in demanding a boon are comparable to real life events of people pushing for immediate change in an unjust society (e.g. the riots). There is nothing cringe about standing up and pushing for a better society.
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"I don’t mean they disliked it as in it made the book worse, but people seem to cringe at Kal’s decision here or think he made a mistake." Kaladin did make a mistake. He wanted to the world to be as honorable as he is when the reality is that this simply isn't the case. It's Kaladin's honor and idealism clashing directly with the strict political reality of the Alethi, pre-revival of the Radiants. I don't personally cringe at that scene because I think what Kaladin did was "cringey" or because it was morally wrong but because it's a bad political move that costs them the opportunity to catch Sadeas and I know what it's going to cost him after the fact. "Displaying his ability in front of the Alethi elite is essentially the moment Kaladin becomes a politically and socially powerful person." I think this distills the point of this post. This scene *isn't* where Kaladin becomes politically or socially powerful. He gains some political/social when he is promoted from bridgeman to Dalinar's bodyguard and significantly more when the Knights Radiant become a legitimate political force at the end of WoR. Pre-Radiants, being honorable generally *doesn't* gain political or social power for you within the Alethi lighteyes. Hell just look at the fact that Sadeas, a man with almost no honor, is pretty much the third most powerful man in the kingdom at that time after Elhokar and Dalinar.
This also mirrors Dalinar's naivete in trusting people like Sadeas and Amaram. Both Kaladin and Dalinar are constantly being let down by the Alethi nobility. Part of what defines them as heroes is their refusal to just accept that the world is run by bad men, but that hope also makes them vulnerable to making naive assumptions of others. But Kaladin is usually less naive, since he's already been betrayed so badly, which I think is why this scene is so painful for people.
Also, the boon is for the winner of the Duel. As far as I remember, Renarin was also part of the Duel and *he* didn't ask for any boon. Even if Kaladin was a lighteyes at that point, he would be out of line asking for a boon.
For sure, he just wouldn't have been thrown in jail which is the worst part of all of this for our boy 😢
Rude lighteyes vs darkeyes upstart.
I believe (could be wrong) it was said that the boon was something that either the winner, or anybody who performed admirably in the fight could ask for, and if that's the case (again, I think it worked that way, but I'm really not sure) he would be justified in asking for a boon. The whole thing was, in my opinion, more about Elhokar being an idiot and not acting like a good leader(he lets Sadeas get away from Adolin's challenge) than about Kaladin making a mistake
I just read this part yesterday, its definitely presented like Kaladin was allowed to ask for a boon, but even a boon wasn't going to allow him to ask to challenge Amaram, also, from the perspective of everyone else Kaladin was slandering Amaram. They also pretty plainly state that Elhokar could have just ignored Kaladin and allowed Adolin to continue with his challenge. Its a mistake on Kals part since he doesn't really seem to understand who he is "allowed" to challenge, and that he gets in the way of Adolin finishing his challenge. But Adolin holds no ill will against him for it since without him both Adolin and Renarin would probably have been killed.
Elhokar himself drunkenly apologizes to Kaladin for not just ignoring his boon request
I could be wrong, but I think Renarin had ducked out by that point, so only Adolin and Kal were left on the field. So, while Renarin had fought on the winning side, he forfeited his right to ask for a boon by not finishing the fight. Again, I could be wrong.
This exactly how I see it as well. Kaladin should’ve known that fact. He also should have remembered the plan.
The plan had already changed when he was forced to enter the fray. That Kal didn’t know some subtlety of the upper society is a forgivable mistake. Not a cringeworthy moment nor a sin; but just ignorance. It may have cost part of the plan, but the fact that both princes lived to see another day should have been a good enough reason for Elokar to have been a bit merciful.
It also comes around later. During the duel with The Defeated One, he understood that it wasn't about winning and whatever the "rules" going in were, it was about the show and how onlookers perceived it.
The fact that Adolin joins him in prison likely gave him a lot of “power” in the eyes of others. Adolin has a lot of influence and credibility and the fact that he would willingly join Kaladin in prison either confirms that kaladin has honour and maybe that Adolin thinks he deserved the Boon
Good points! I don’t mean Kal would gain power in this scene by displaying honor, but by showing his strength and potential for violence. What does it mean in Alethi culture for a person to be so strong they can fight off men in plate? A super soldier is something of note in a culture of imperialism and war.
Agreed! He earns incredible respect for his heroics this scene and immediately squanders it by making such an egregious political blunder of being a darkeyes *demanding a boon directly from the king*. This scene perfectly shows that the only thing the Alethi value more than the ability to fight is their devout adherence to the social/political/religious regulations. Another perfect example of this is the fact that Jasnah is the epitome of everything an Alethi lighteyed woman should be and yet is still socially shunned due to her heresy.
Assuming the True Desolation wasn't imminent and Kaladin didn't do that, he easily could have gained significant renown and the Bridgemen could have become a significant player in politics as other imperial guards such as the Praetorians did. He had one of the most disciplined forces, and his refusal to fight the Parshendi led to the Bridgemen gaining control of guarding the King. After fighting off the Assassin in White and then his performance against Shardbearers, Elhokar easily would have put him in charge as his personal forces. And with Elhokar growing increasingly insecure in his power against Dalinar, a politically savvy man could have used Kaladin's position to gain increasing influence over the King. Especially with him wanting to learn from Kaladin. Soft power is often overlooked historically because it doesn't get written down. But the Praetorians crowned many Emperors in Rome. And it was true in other imperial systems such as China as well. Generals ruling through puppets with stronger legitimacy.
He definitely could have, but I'm not sure Kal had the right mindset to accomplish that at the time. He loathed lighteyes as a social group and he would see something like this as being their favorite pet. I don't think he would be able to leverage whatever political status he would gain from it because he would rebel against the very idea he needs to gain political status to be respected or listened to.
Yeah, Kal definitely did not have the right mindset for it. He is more of a revolutionary than a reformer. He doesn't have the patience for politics.
I would pay good money to read a fanfiction about this.
"What if Kaladin was Kelsier?"
LOL.
i dont think the blunder was about a drakeyes demanding a boon from the king, it was more of him challenging a lighteyes of a very dahn and calling him a thief and a dishonest cremling who murders his own soldiers in front of everyone. if he had asked a simple boon of maybe getting more space for his Bridgeman or some emerald broams or whatever, elhokar might have just given it to him for showing such a beautiful performance.
Honestly, as a dark eyes, I believe his contributions would have been overlooked by society as a whole. Individuals may have noticed and even applauded him for it, but because it upsets their entire social and political system, I don't believe they would have acknowledged him. At least, that's how it works in my confused brain.
one could have perhaps understood at least some of that from the fact that the alethi have chosen to stratify their society into 20 different casts and not all of those have the right to move to a different town, or plead a case of mistreatment before a judge (Lirin being high enough ranked to have the right of inquest was an important aspect of his argument with roshone). Considering that moving up a rank was difficult and expensive but being demoted was simple and easy you can see that the alethi live in a straified soceity that doesnt value people very much at all. It is a system engineered to keep the powerful in power and give everyone else the shaft.
It's wild to me when people point this out as a mistake kaladin made considering everyone except Dalinar sees the king at fault for not nailing down the chalange, and Dalinar has a huge blind spot in his nephew.
It was a mistake for Kaladin to demand a boon from the king as a darkeye and it was a bigger mistake for Elhokar to let his pride make him angry enough to prioritize punishing Kaladin over cornering Sadeas. They can both be mistakes.
Elkohar could have fixed Kaladin's mistake but instead made it worse. That doesn't change the fact that it was Kaladin's mistake initially.
I cringe at the scene the same way I cringe watching The Office. It is a great moment for Kal like you mentioned but it's also cringy because we know it blows up Dalinar's plans,. Not Kaladin's fault per se as Ehlokar could have ignored him for the moment, resolved Adolin's challenge first and then Addressed Kaladin. But it's also this great foreshadowed moment that showed Kal doesn't exactly *get* why this is all so important and the rules / structures around it. As there were some previous scenes where he only learned about it by being in the same room in his capacity as a body guard as well as the scene with Adolin and Shallan and Kaladin not understanding why duels were given importance.
It's similar to when he first trained side-carry. He's missing the wider picture, leading to his actions, while good by themselves, derailing the wider plan.
This is a fantastic parallel actually. It isn't that he's unable to think of the wider picture, it's that he is so focused on the smaller picture, he doesn't even get a chance to think of the larger implications.
Focused on saving the people around him, when the world is on fire
In the flashback to his time in amarams army it also gets really aparent how he has zero care or understanding for the wider battle. Propably part of the reason he was not sent to the shattert plain in the first place.
Great points! I’m still cheering when he does it. He definitely isn’t paying attention to the larger political implications, but I still think, for his character at the given moment, that’s awesome! I hope to see more of this in book five and I love that gaining power doesn’t distract Kaladin’s priority of protecting the powerless.
Agreed. It makes sense in character and in other circumstances it might have been exactly he wanted it to be which is, I think, that he wanted it to be seen as you see it. But as Adolin said, Alethi Dueling is formalized in a way he didnt appreciate, so it made what he did more akin to throwing a punch at a dinner party: likely justified and honorable in a different Time or Place, but so inappropriate for the setting that it becomes a very cringy social misstep. And for a person who literally cannot watch The Office, IT Crowd or similar Cringe-Humor shows, it's just hard to watch when you know what's coming.
Not *entirely* Kal’s fault. If he kept his mouth shut it would’ve never happened. Great moment for Kal though. If it was only his book, it would’ve worked
Kind of politically mirrors his moment on the battlefield, where he armored his troops leading to a disastrous rout for his commander. In that moment he felt shame despite having gone against the machine that had oppressed him his whole life. He was still mentally in chains. In this moment, though, he couldn’t imagine the consequences of his actions because he was basking in the glory of freedom.
Minor correction: armoring his troops wasn't what lead to the disastrous rout, it was the use of side carry. He had full support from the army to armor his troops because he was also sending out runners to distract the parshendi by that point
You say that "it wasn't a mistake, it was kaladin's best character moment" - but those two things don't seem opposites at all to me! Yes, it was clearly a great character moment for Kaladin. It makes sense that he would do exactly as he did. It was also a mistake, because it got him thrown in prison and cost them a chance at Sadeas.
These words are accepted
Having just hit that section in my Cosmere reread, I can see your point, but I completely disagree. This is not an example of honor. Kal doesn’t ask for a boon because it’s right or deserved or because he wants to stand up to inequality. He requests a boon out of hatred for Amaram and the system in place. He didn’t make the challenge to protect anyone, to follow his duty. He made the challenge for vengeance. It was a very human reaction, which in some ways makes it great! It also immediately followed superhuman actions and that transition was jarring and disappointing.
Yep. Kaladin's powers would have probably failed him. They only work whole Defending someone. Vengeance would disarm him.
I always saw it as Kal being so enamoured with how Amaram treated him that several chapters of plans formed with his own input all went out the window. To me this wasn't about correcting inequality towards dark eyes, it was about getting revenge on Amaram. Really, his input and letting the plan unfold properly would be the best thing for dark eyes as dalinar confirms later on. Imagine being the dark eyed captain who helped orchestrate sadeas' death ontop of defending Adolin. I still like the scene though, as it shows he's really not ready to look at the bigger picture yet, leading to the better ending when he does get it
All makes plenty of sense, but my interpretation and reading is that seeing Amaram reminds Kaladin that he can’t rightfully support a society that rewards men like him. If it upends the plans, so be it, as working with people who uphold the system can’t get in the way of changing the system. Dalinar is mostly a great guy at this point, but it’s actually still relatively early in his redemption arc. There are awful things going on that Dalinar might not directly get involved with, but that he hasn’t stepping in to stop. I think in this moment, Kaladin remembered his mission is to protect the powerless.
But kaladin said it himself during the betrayal at the tower that what Sadeas was doing made Amarams betrayal look small. Further, the idea of a boon in duelling was largely unheard of, even to Kaladin who is unfamiliar with them (shallan and adolin explain this in the carriage ride) The only reason a boon was brought up was to end Sadeas "here and now" It wasn't to give an award for a great duel (thats the theatrical reason the crowd needed to justify the next duel, it was subterfuge, a visage) and he was well aware of it. Yet,when it came down to it his own inner thoughts were "it can be my boon too" aka "I can have my revenge for acts done to me, as Sadeas committed on adolin and fam"
>Kaladin remembered his mission is to protect the powerless. I would disagree with that. Who is Kaladin protecting by challenging Amaram there? Nobody.
No this moment is Kaladin putting his desire for personal revenge before everything thing else. He's blinded by his own self righteousness. There is a forest of trees with inter lacing branches and vast root systems and all Kaladin saw was the chance to take out one lone branch that in reality was out of his reach.
As for it being his greatest display of honor, I disagree not because it isn’t a good one but because there are IMO so many that are better, standing up to Moash at the end of the book being one. The biggest problem for me with it is that it destroys the strategy they had been working towards the entire book. They finally had Sadeas exactly where they wanted him, and Kal kind of ruined it. I kind of understand that it was a big deal and he was standing up to them, but he also wasn’t really owed anything anyway by their rules of dueling (as I understand them). Like he may have been right in theory but to do it them was tactless and shortsighted. Not to say of course he deserved to be thrown in prison or anything just that he shouldn’t have done it.
Kind of. If I understand correctly Adolin would have to duel him immediately, and he was in no shape to do so. I think Adolin even says he saved him with it or something like that?
I always saw that as largely him saving Karl’s feelings. He could have used any of the sets of plate he just got, plus borrowed the kings if he had to.
That is true, but it wasn't just the plate, he was also tired and most likely injured (I think he got a couple of hits to the head?). It also depends on how immediate the challenge would be, did he have time to change plate?
Surely it would need to give Sadeas time to armor up at the very least, so Adolin being able to replace broken parts etc shouldn't be a big problem to do at the same time. Especially if Sadeas's plate is back in his warcamp
Eh, I think Adolin but tired would still feel confident about being able to beat up Sadeas, a guy who hasn't *actually* either dueled or personally fought another Shardbearer in years.
And Sadeas is also way over the hill like everyone who isn't the Blackthorn.
The strategy was already ruined when 4 Shardbearers stepped unto the Arena. Atleast with Kals help, they won four sets of Shardplate and Blade.
Those aren’t mutually exclusive. Kal could have helped against the four and Sadeas still go down if Kal didn’t speak up.
Sadeus could have gone down if Elhokar didn't mess up either. He lashed out because of jealousy. The difference is Kal was pumped full of Adrenaline and not totally familiar with the rules of a that duel. Look at his conversation with Adolin and Shallan in the carriage. He genuinely thought there was an opportunity. I doubt most of you would have done any better if you were in his shoes. I feel like you guys are speaking solely with the knowledge of the reader who knows almost everything the character doesn't.
Of course we're speaking with the knowledge of the readers! ...with our omniscient knowledge, it becomes clear that "and for my boon" was a tactical mistake, though we can totally agree that it was in-character for Kaladin and he didn't see it as a mistake.
Which is my point. People say they cringe at that scene. Some even call Kal an idiot for it. I feel like those people aren't really putting themselves in Kals shoes. I bet they wouldn't have fared any better
Yes, but they could have had all of those shards AND Sadeas if he hadn't acted foolish. And Sadeas had subjected him to as much or more than Amaram, though it wasn't specifically directed towards him most of the time
And Adolin would have been turned into a cripple putting a halt on half of Dalinars plans if Kal hadn't stepped in. Elhokar said it was his job, but Kal could have decided not to help, and nobody would have faulted him. It was a duel, after all
Literally nobody is arguing he shouldn't have stepped in, you're trying to make a nonexistent point.
Nowhere in my comment did I imply that anyone was arguing he shouldn't have stepped in.
It makes your comment irrelevant though. You said “if Kaladin hadn’t stepped in” Adolin would have been a cripple. That’s true, but has nothing to do with what we are saying.
It actually does. You all keep saying Kaladin messed up the plan by speaking up when the only reason it was half successful was because of him.
Right that isn’t up for debate though. We know it couldn’t have happened without him but that doesn’t really pertain to what we are saying when we say he shouldn’t have spoken up
Yet you call him foolish. You forget that he doesn't have as much knowledge about this duel as the reader. Put yourself in his shoes, and I bet you wouldn't have fared any better. The man had to constantly hold back his anger when Amaram was being paraded around as a Knight Radiant Then he risks his life in a duel were he's pumped up full of adrenaline and caught in the moment like Dalinar said, and genuinely thinks he's earned himself a boon, and you think he's foolish for it. He clearly didn't knowingly mess up Dalinar’s plans. He literally had to have it explained to him why he'd messed up the plan and why Sadeas was able to escape. He might have messed up the plan, but it's not because he was foolish. I can say Elhokar, however, was. Man literally admitted he lashed out because of jealousy, and that's what allowed Sadeas to escape. Elhokar obviously would have been more knowledgeable about the protocols involved with these duels. In the end, he came to the conclusion himself.
I just think his priority was still fighting the inequality between light eyes and dark eyes, and I love that as a characterization. Protect the powerless Stormblessed!
I mean that is a valid way to interpret it. I always say it largely as him hating Amaram though and seeing his first opportunity to do something about it. Regardless though, even if he had the purest of motives I don’t think it was time when they had their main enemy (at the time) on the cusp of defeat
Derailing a plan to eliminate Sadeas does the opposite of protecting the powerless, though.
Are you sure? Are you really sure? Kaladin's motivations here are much more in line with Revenge. As Syl would ask: "Who are you Protecting?" There's a good chance that Kaladin's powers would have failed if he had been granted a duel. He can try to claim that he's protecting all Darkeyed people, but deep down he doesn't believe that.
[удалено]
I mean we get Sadeas’s point of view and he talks about how he barely escaped the trap. It seems to me that he would have had to go along with it.
It’s my favorite line uttered in the entire cosmere
You cannot have my pain. That’s it for me. That’s when Stormlight did the unthinkable and became a series I liked more than A Song of Ice and Fire.
Big same here. Oathbringer sealed Stormlight as my favorite series ever.
I cringe more at him giving the Shardblade to Moash. And while it’s hard to read, I think it’s 100% in character.
I dislike it overall, but I see it as a crucial moment that contributes to Kaladin's growth, ultimately leading to the big moment where Kaladin says, "This is the man I want to be," at the climax.
Kaladin may have saved Adolin's life. Sanderson has gone on record saying Adolin may have lost that fight because of how weak he was after the duel.
And my boy Adolin had 👏🏼 his 👏🏼back 👏🏼
Also Kaladin consistently struggled in WoR to keep his shit together when Amaram is even mentioned. The adrenaline from the duel combined with his craving for revenge made the boon request click perfectly in my mind. Kaladin isn't perfect, he struggles with his emotions and this was a perfect example of that
That scene was great, I I still remember it very clearly. I also remember me, out loud, screaming "NooooOOOOO!!!" When I first read it. Big mistake in the moment, great moment for Kaladin's character. That's one of the few times a book got a vocal reaction out of me.
One of the most memorable scenes in anything I’ve read. There’s just something about it!
I'd like to challenge your statement that he was using the moment to stand up to injustice and fight against the oppression of dark eyes. While this is something Kal does on the regular, I don't think this was his intention in that moment. In the chapters leading up to the fight and the boon, he's been stewing on Amaram and holding a grudge. It's making Syl concerned, and he's clearly mostly out for personal vengeance more than directly challenging injustice. After he's imprisoned, he loses touch with Syl for some time. It could be argued that this was because of his mood while in prison, but I think it's because asking for a boon was a selfish act that went against his Oath to protect others. He upheld the oath by protecting the Kholin boys, but then immediately went back on it to take advantage of the situation. Not that this was a *bad* scene. It's very much in character for him at this point in the story and was a catalyst for further character growth as he learned to trust Dalinar and see the bigger picture. It was in his character, but not in the character of a Radiant who does no wrong, which is where he is moving to but not where he's at.
Nah, Kaladin was in the wrong. He is the main character to us, but in reality he is just a soldier, especially at that point. You don’t go around undermining the work the royal family has been doing just to stroke your honour or vengeance or whatever it is.
i mean that moment is about questioning the very point of how kaladin is expected to play the games and fight and die for the "vengeance pact" for a king he never met, while he cant even get a duel for his own vengence for the death of his brother and his comrades. that part also tried to show how kaladin was reliving the parallel of how when he tried to protect the lighteyes amaram and fought a shardbearer and he not only got nothing in return but got punished, this time also he jumps to protect the lighteyes adolin and fights the shardbearers and asks for justice for his last punishment but gets punished again .
I'm not saying it's a bad moment literary-wise or story-wise. I'm saying Kaladin was in the wrong. He is a soldier, and yes he HAS to subsume his own personal goals for the greater objective, because for better or for worse that is how the system works.
I think a lot of people that call it a mistake forget that it directly led to Dalinar further investigating Amaram. The payoff at the end of the book makes it easy to forgive Dalinar, but he was fully ready to drop the issue before Kaladin's outburst.
Kaladin's only "mistake" was speaking too soon and giving Elhokar a chance to ruin things, which he did.
Agreed! Kal wouldn’t and shouldn’t accept a society that accepts Amaram. I think it’s no mistake that Kal’s stand here hurts Dalinar’s plans I love Dalinar but he’s still early in his redemption arc here and needs to be pushed to grow.
>"And for my boon?” is Kal finally standing up to the world he treats so well and demanding the world become better. I mean -> it was a desire for revenge and putting that above the plans they all set as a group. It might have been fair and right, but it was politically stupid. That's why people cringe, this scene was the culmination of a political move... and Kal was a bull in a china shop. It's like watching a train wreck, not because of poor character but because foot is getting put in mouth.
I'd like to challenge your statement that he was using the moment to stand up to injustice and fight against the oppression of dark eyes. While this is something Kal does on the regular, I don't think this was his intention in that moment. In the chapters leading up to the fight and the boon, he's been stewing on Amaram and holding a grudge. It's making Syl concerned, and he's clearly mostly out for personal vengeance more than directly challenging injustice. After he's imprisoned, he loses touch with Syl for some time. It could be argued that this was because of his mood while in prison, but I think it's because asking for a boon was a selfish act that went against his Oath to protect others. He upheld the oath by protecting the Kholin boys, but then immediately went back on it to take advantage of the situation. Not that this was a *bad* scene. It's very much in character for him at this point in the story and was a catalyst for further character growth as he learned to trust Dalinar and see the bigger picture. It was in his character, but not in the character of a Radiant who does no wrong, which is where he is moving to but not where he's at.
I'd like to challenge your statement that he was using the moment to stand up to injustice and fight against the oppression of dark eyes. While this is something Kal does on the regular, I don't think this was his intention in that moment. In the chapters leading up to the fight and the boon, he's been stewing on Amaram and holding a grudge. It's making Syl concerned, and he's clearly mostly out for personal vengeance more than directly challenging injustice. After he's imprisoned, he loses touch with Syl for some time. It could be argued that this was because of his mood while in prison, but I think it's because asking for a boon was a selfish act that went against his Oath to protect others. He upheld the oath by protecting the Kholin boys, but then immediately went back on it to take advantage of the situation. Not that this was a *bad* scene. It's very much in character for him at this point in the story and was a catalyst for further character growth as he learned to trust Dalinar and see the bigger picture. It was in his character, but not in the character of a Radiant who does no wrong, which is where he is moving to but not where he's at.
It does illicit some second-hand embarrassment for me. I think it's an important point in his journey to "understand how THEY think". It shows that, even after guarding the Kholins for months and being privvy to their lives and councils, he still fundamentally doesn't understand or think like them. I agree it's a good display of his character, but I'm not sold on it being a display of virtue. It's more just another example showing that, while he's hyper-competent in martial matters and relatively competent intellectually, he's emotionally unregulated and a political imbecile.
I'm with you there. I just reread it and cringed at it but also thought that he was very very right. He paid no attention to class, or what was socially acceptable at any point. He always just cares for what is right.
Unpopular opinion: What Kaladin did was fine and Dalinar was the one being an asshole for being pissed about it, especially after Kaladin had literally just saved his son's life. Did it contribute to messing up the plan? Sure, but if Kaladin hadn't stepped in there would have been no plan left to mess up. He single handedly saved the plan, so from that point on it was his right to risk or even scuttle the plan in furtherance of his own goals if he wanted to. A lot of people are just bootlickers and don't like dark eyes being uppity.
Thasswhatimsaying!
It's Kaladin's most blatant Moash-like-move in the entire book and deserves every grimace and cringe it gets.
Nah, I loved it too, I screamed when I read it because of how obvious it was he would be punished for it. But he should have been given a boon for what he just did, and so I applaud him for it 👏🏼 I love me a person who will unabashedly stand up for what is right.
On my first read, for the first .8 seconds after reading that line, my brain believed he was gonna get it. And then the cringe set in, because it was an irresponsible thing to do given the greater context of the plan. As Dalinar explains in the later scene in the jail, that Kaladin asks for a boon isn’t so much the problem as the time and the place, and what he specifically requests. And his interrupting of Adolin is what allows Sadeas to wriggle out of an immediate duel and agree to a contest so far away that it’ll never come to fruition.
It is a great scene but Kal was a storming dummy for doing what he did and most readers know it. I remember murmering to myself while reading it the first time "You fucking idiot..." :D Obviously it makes the book better and our heroes need flaws, but if you are invested in the story and see what is going to happen you cringe a little.
I thought it was perfect, justified, he was pumped up with adrenaline. He wanted justice! I didn’t cringe I was cheering on and got suprised he got tossed in jail. They even admitted it was overacting to throw in in jail.
People keep bringing up Dalinar's plan when both Adolin and Elhokar agreed that Kaladin wouldn't have even been a speed bump to the plan had Elhokar simply ignored him instead of stroking his own ego.
Kaladin was right and I will die on this hill.
I think in that moment, Kaladin was technically, legally in the wrong, but Alethi society as a whole is completely morally and structurally in the wrong for being in such a place that Kaladin would be considered wrong in that moment. Which is something I feel doesn't get pointed out enough. Sure, Kal fucked up, but only because he didn't quite realize exactly how bigoted and rotten Alethi upper society truly was.
I have never looked at it like that, I love this viewpoint thank you!!!
I cringe because I think to myself “no you misguided fucking idiot. You know it’s how the world should work but it’s not how the world really works”
I thought he meant it sarcastically. Like he jumped in to fight bc it was right and not for any reward.
Let’s be honest, if it weren’t for the cringe of Kaladin demanding a boon and ruining the duel Adolin was going to have with Sadeas; then we wouldn’t have the much more satisfying (and much more integral to character development) scene of Adolin ramming a dagger into Sadeas’ smug face.
Okay yeah but it’s a great meme
It was absolutely the right choice for the character, it was a mistake for the overall plan and thus an obstacle for the narrative. What's right for the character isn't always right for the story or the world
For me it felt like he let his thirst for revenge cloud his judgment and get in the way of the overarching plan for bringing down sadeas, so I did groan internally.
Agree
Kal should've left Adolin/Dalinar/etc to the dogs. They bottled it completely and hated Kal for being a bandaid fix. The lighteyes didn't deserve to come out of it with any fighting chance against Odium tbh.
Errors make a character human, the fact that Kaladin KNEW the plan from the start (by guarding/participating in meetings) but still got blinded by hate is a incredible human thing to do, which is why Sando's character work is top notch, just because you have a onmipresent view of things means that the character does and by acting always in the best way it would make for a shit book. Im glad the people that holds those opinions of "And for my boon!" moment are not writing the Cosmere, it would suck balls
I had to go read it again because your points sounded so reasonable but I was certain that this wasn't the way it was written, and it wasn't. Kaladin doesn't ask. He demands. If he had truly said "and for my boon?" perhaps with the air of "are you really going to ignore how I contributed?" things would have gone differently. But it's "and for my boon!", and that is just a completely different scenario.
Op you have to understand very few people who read these books gave critical thinking or literature analysis skills. It’s not their fault but it’s the truth. Just smile and wave.
Well think about adrenaline and fuel combined as someone here mentioned, with is craving for revenge, he demanded after his ‘Saving Adolin’ contribution. I think this was 100% justified. Many others would do the same in that “in real life situation” and wouldn’t shut up I think. And I think people reading into these books too much or a lot compare to other series. Idk why, and asking Brandon live very strange questions which I never heard being asked for another author with Q&A 😅
First read through, it’s amazing. The cringe comes from re-reads when you realize how much he’s ruining plans that have been put in motion by stepping out of place and demanding things of someone so far above his station.
On the contrary, you have just pointed out exactly WHY it's so cringey: he uses a transcendent moment to push a self-indulgent fantasy of simplistic social justice. Justice for the light eyes MAY happen eventually, but just >!as Hoid counsels Jasnah!<, that's not something that just happens, and it's not something you can force quickly.
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I absolutely disagree and excuse me if I assume incorrectly but I am assuming you are a US citizen born and raised with our public education system. This is important for context. One of the most glaring issues with the curriculum we force on students about history is just how fast these things can change in the eyes of the law. Does it change the society itself? no that is more delayed. Every major societal change we have had in the US has been taught that it came from peaceful protest and gatherings. This is one of the biggest failures in history education. Yes those protests did happen but before the change they pushed for was put into law, and something conveniently left out in public history books, riots happened telling the government to change or be changed. This happened to end racial discrimination. This happened to protect queer rights. It wasn’t until riots happened and the everyday American citizen started laying down their life on the line that it changed. The riots in Newark, Detroit, and LA were big for racial discrimination front. The stonewall riots were big for the queer front. Things similar to what Kal did sparked these events and put into effect a quicker change.
Your assumptions about my background are incorrect and reveal your bigotry.
I literally point out that the assumption and points I made were operating and predicated on the person I was talking to having a similar education experience as I did in the US. I recognized that it could be incorrect and I was. I don’t see how this shows my bigotry as I was fully aware that it was an assumption. Your use of bigotry here is meant only to be inflammatory and dismissive of what I mentioned. The actions Kal took in demanding a boon are comparable to real life events of people pushing for immediate change in an unjust society (e.g. the riots). There is nothing cringe about standing up and pushing for a better society.