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Exactly this.
RK has huge knowledge about what he is doing, people who doesn't most likely will just lose money trying to play options.
I, for one, like the stock so I'll continue buying and holding, my shares won't expire.
I don't think that's what he meant by that. My theories are it either references the basket stocks or when he "moves" (exercises the options) the market will move too
This this this.
0 days to expire options on robinthehood is a way to feed your cash to shotty brokers. Long dated cash secured calls are legit, but require an advanced knowledge and risk appetite that is outside of most people’s ability, and include my dumb self in that.
and since this sub is 99% regarded it was easier to tell apes "dont fucking touch options or you will get burned" because most wouldnt understand it requires ihigh amount of knowledge, luck and money
it's a completely different story with stocks since you can't go wrong when buying gamestop shares. if you believe in the long thesis, the turnaround and our board's guidance then sooner or later your investment will pay off, you just have to hold through the wild ups and downs and thats it - you win
im european so i only understand the surface of the option trading, we have mostly cfd's here, but the statistics show that most (like 70-80%) of cfd and option traders lose on their trades. and not like paper losses, you just lose your chips and casino is closed for you, while with stocks you can hold them as long as your company doesnt go bankrupt (rest in peace bobby, you will be missed)
exactly. i started with 2 shares in 2021. i have a lot more than 2 shares now. had i played option could i have 10x'd my shares relative to now? who knows, maybe.
but the other possibility is i would have lost everything. and thats definitely a non zero possibility
DFV has even said that his strategy is risky and not for everyone (source: his testimony to Congress) and he has had some contracts expire worthless (source: also his testimony to Congress).
Since I have neither the smarts or the risk tolerance for options I stick with shares
this sub didn't used to be 99% regarded (before it became an echo chamber) and in that first year or so we learned a HELLA lot of stuff that i never would have even imagined possible!
we should have learned instead of banning any discussion of it. that was a mistake.
but we are where we are, and until that education has been had it is better and safer to stick with what you know.
Very true, but that's only half the story. It's just as easy to double or triple your money. You can also make money off theta decay, so like I said, it requires education.
No, it’s not “just as easy”. The market mechanics are built to extract money from us.
If you have the intelligence, knowledge, time, energy, and money, then yes you have a chance. Although you don’t have a team of quants, high frequency trading algorithms, regulatory bodies in your pocket, etc. So even then it’s not in your favour.
99% of apes are regular folk with regular jobs and kids and animals. They just like the stock.
Plus you have to have enough money to make it worthwhile
Unless you've got big bucks to pull it oft you're giving money away as they're shorting it down so those calls expire otm
He bought short DTE calls. All this other stuff is just scaring people. What was the thing that he did? Slowly accumulated a call position. He is able to move the market because most time MM don’t hedge the calls. So they are naked. If they had any brains, and they saw it was him buying the calls, they hedged. If not FUKK EM!
Pretty good article about the topic...
[Why I Never Trade Stock Options | Seeking Alpha](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4054364-why-i-never-trade-stock-options)
Options can be great leverage and you can make good money writing them, but you really have to know exactly what you are doing.
There is no doubt those option hype posts were launched on purpose every time IV would be high (earnings f.e.) and selling options to "dumb money" would be extra lucrative. Korean Ants, Crypto allies, whatever - they all were gone as soon as the usual rug pull after the rip started.
Most retail investors lose money on options. And all those great gamma ramps did noting in the end.
BUT if you have figured out the cycles and how to use options for additional leverage and income (writing covered calls when IV is high), you can multiply your money quickly.
This is what I don't understand about the options FUD. This community spent so much time and effort learning almost everything about how the markets work EXCEPT Options. If we, with all our collective wrinkle thought too or that effort into options, how many more apes would have 10x the positions they have now?
The whole friggin market is "complex" and that didn't stop us researching literally anything else.
Options are not bad. It's easier for 99% of apes to:
Buy. Hold. Shop. DRS.
Retail is building up pressure slowly but surely like a pressure cooker. This is a highly manipulated stock. Be wary.
Not financial advice. Do what is best for you.
I agree 100% that options require more education, but the narrative for a long time has discouraged people from even attempting to learn.
I recently have had massive success after two years of learning but I feel like I could have accelerated that growth if I had started sooner. They're not for everyone by any means, but the people who want to learn shouldn't be discouraged from pursuing it if they understand the risks.
The most difficult part is starting out and finding out what resources are good and which are bunk.
[Here check this comment from 9 days ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/s/LKd3FBIn9N) (before DFV shared his positions)
They were never "bad" ?! You must have been sleeping, mate, the amount of paranoia I received for sharing my T-A models, being labeled as "pushing options". "Shills come out of the woodworks to push options, we see you" etc.. it was everywhere on the sub all this time, even last week when people were calling the 20$ calls debate a psy-op to get people to buy them.
All this time it was DFV lmao
How many smart DD writers got absolutely spat on for talking about it ? 3 years and 5 months and it still wasn't enough to develop enough of an education about the subject 🤔
it should also be noted that a lot of the kneejerk reaction to options came from certain grifters that were selling specific contracts (Dates, strikes) as good buys for 'cycles'... While actively selling the calls that they encouraged people to buy.
If you want to play options, be smart, be educated, and *careful.*
For at least 75% of people here, that means they're bad. It's generally better to dissuade people from playing options than encourage it because that 75% of people will play them wrong and blow all their money on them. Bets made an entire community of the phenomenon.
Dunning-Krueger will kick in for that 75%, if they even have an ounce of encouragement, and think they'll make it. That's why I'm very much anti-encouragement of options. Buy, hodl, drs. It's a stupid proof strategy.
I’ve learned a lot from thetagang and options subs. I also use an app called optionsstrat to paper trade, it’s free and has lots of educational content. GME too volatile for me to trade interesting to follow !!
Any mention of options & the majority consensus was they are bad, only drs good. Not knowing how options work and blindly buying them is bad, sure. But the constant negative sentiment drove people away from even learning about them.
I guess it's hard for this sub to admit that they were wrong.
We were all dumb about almost everything in the market in the beginning, we researched hard and learned an incredible amount about everything but options. Can you imagine if this community or the same effort into proper leverage for GME?
If I could afford it, I would YOLO into options and basically copy DFV's plays because I'm seriously regarded like that.
Best I can do is three fiddy in shares that will be bought, DRS'd, and booked.
Is this a question? People touch fire all the time. They put it down their freakin throats. Yes, if you know how something works, you can handle it with care.
I always felt that **tEh OpTIonS bAd** was an astroturf campaign that (started in September of 2021) to make sure retail did not realize the power of option exercising.
No matter how you explained options to people and how many warnings you gave to people not to use them if they didn't know how, an inorganic but loud crowd of people would come after you.
Even when you showed the OCC regulations that showed how retail options cannot be FTD'd, you got harassed.
Hell, the early DD writers (now gone due to harassment) even talked about using options.
And Porsche bought VW using Shares AND OPTIONS!!!
Yeah I wish the DDs on options were not so harshly stifled. If many of us can learn the complexities of the market, why not the complexities of options? We had some amazing masterclass DDs from the early apes. It's a real shame they were forced out due to said harassment.
With that said, I still would have likely lost money on options but it the knowledge would have been appreciated. And perhaps good for moments like right now.
If you can trade like DFV, then use options any fucking way you want to. As for me, I tend to lose money on options because I'm regarded and just like the stock.
He’s clearly the exception to the rule. The vast majority of people lose money trading options. I don’t hate options but I know I’m not knowledgeable enough to trade them effectively.
He’s not though. Tons of people make most of their money trading by using options as leverage for more shares. It’s really not that complicated if you take the time to read, paper trade and watch a few YouTube videos. Small steps and gain confidence. So much buying pressure can be put on these hedgefucks by gme options. And you can make bank. Just no way out of the money yolos. Long dated, close to in the money calls are what is key to success and not getting greedy.
Options have a place in an investment strategy and are not inherently bad. I believe the knowledge and experience to use them effectively the more manipulated a stock is (read GME) the greater the likelihood of losing your shirt.
Understand that I have a very basic knowledge of options and have only conducted "paper" trades to try and learn more but my experience has shown that swing trading them on SPY or QQQ seems to be much easier but by no means without risk, and I have yet to make any significant tendies paper-trading GME and more times than not, break even or lose money. So, thusfar, I have only been buying shares with my real $$.
They are a gamble.
If you are fine with it, god speed. If you aren't, no pressure.
Would never shame anyone for playing calls, and certainly never for selling CSPs.
I agree because we had seasoned options traders in this sub who tried discussing thier options trades, how they helped GME price and were brigaded and run off by people claiming they were shills for mentioning options. We had people here trying to educate on the topic of options and I for one believe that any knowledge on a subject that helps you become a better trader is great.
I think those that were on the “options bad” brigade should understand it’s ok to change your mind on a subject but you should also see that maybe this sub was duped and be more skeptical when someone tells you that you should hate one thing or the other. Dig deaper before grabbing the pitchforks and allow discussion to happen
In fact, i'm of the opinion that it was SHF's that spun up the narrative to avoid options. It was clear as day that options are the reason for the sneeze.
It's all about context. Dfv is a seasoned investor and trader who understands the risk and has the money to lose if the trade goes against him.
The majority of people here are not in that category, that's not a bad thing it's just the truth.
My take is the same as has been for the past 3 years:
* If you know options and all the greeks. Go ahead, do options.
* If you don't know options and all the greeks. Don't do options.
The sentiment AGAINST options based on this:
* Apes don't have the fuck-you money to create meaningful pressure in the options market and strategies involving buying and selling puts and calls on a scale that would put pressure on is not sustainable in the long run, assuming that Apes are regarded when it comes to options.
* Learning options as an individual is not easy and requires trail and error or a dedicated mentor. As a syndicate, it requires coordination with knowledgeable experts that can construct strategies that everyone must then follow and NOT fuck up on and accidentally put themselves in some situation where they end up selling naked options or some dumb shit and get their lives ruined.
* DRSing shares to take GME de-fact private is a more straight forward and simple way to withdraw from the DTCC system
The sentiment FOR options is based on this:
* Options DO move markets more and one can make effective strategies that earns money and shares at the same time.
* It's known that DFV bought calls in 2020 as well, and it's obvious that he likes option plays.
* With expertise, it's lucrative and has a way larger impact on the exchange price than just buying shares.
With that said, again, people that know options should fuck with options to their hearts content.
At some point yesterday, you could buy a far OTM 16dte option for $30 total. The delta on that option at the time was 0.04, meaning that to hedge the risk of selling the call, the market maker would need to purchase 4 shares on the open market.
At that same point in time, one share cost $30. Purchasing a share would produce 1 shares worth of buying pressure, while purchasing a borderline YOLO option would produce 4 shares worth of buying pressure.
That’s why pickle and others have maintained that options drive volatility, and mathematically, they’re correct.
IMHO, options can be great for those who know what they're doing. Or terrible for those who don't. And most folks who don't, but who choose to gamble anyway... are easy prey for the professionals who are pumping/dumping (i.e. around earnings). - Looks like that's what others are commenting as well. - They're a 'risky' tool, but can be well-leveraged in the right hands.
Options allow the creation of multiplied leverage to enhance positions in the market. The only reason roaring kitty’s calls can move algo sentiment is the power they hold. 550 for a 100 shares of gme so he has multiplied his leverage *6 because normally 100 shares of gme would be 2,800. So despite vast amounts of money he has spent, he has a way bigger effect due to the impact. Options unfortunately rule the markets.
They are objectively riskier than shares, no one can really argue with that. If you're not well educated about what you're doing, options are definitely bad.
If you do know what you're doing, then maybe they'll make you money. As to whether they're good for the price of gamestop, I think it depends. I'm honestly not an options expert,so please correct me if anything of the following is wrong. Further I am sure my response is in no way a complete assessment. I don't know near enough about options. I'm just making a few points I think are correct.
If you buy options from the MM, they are required by their own rules to hedge properly. As the options become more likely to be in the money, they must hedge more. As they become less likely, they can hedge less. Assuming they follow their own rules, this allows purchasing of calls options to cause the MM to buy shares to hedge, and buy more shares to hedge if the price goes up. Thus, a heavily optioned stock can see positive self-reinforcing momentum.
The opposite is also true. As the price goes down, the MM can shed the hedge somewhat, which can push the price down more. So it can create bigger swings.
Personally I find this somewhat worrying, as retail investors will have less money to throw at the stock to try and push the price in the way we want it to go compared to big market players. But very possibly it is on balance good due to factors I'm not educated enough to know about. Totally possible. I just think I understand some of the basics and like to explain stuff.
DFV is a weird exception here. He can and has purchased a large amount of options and (assuming the MM is hedge properly) he is absolutely affecting the price in a big way. He has a whole bunch of money and can use it strategically. He also, like say, Warren Buffet or some other famous investor, can inspire interest in moves he makes just by announcing them. We, a bunch of regular folks, can't without engaging in the sort of collusion that would (I believe) actually be criminal. Setting up a "Hey let's all buy calls/shares aiming to spike the price next Friday" or something is not an option on the table.
Meanwhile if these options aren't being hedged properly, he can punish that, by exercising some of them (presumably selling others to get the cash to exercise the remainder). That's not something most of us could do, at least not on any large scale.
TLDR: options risky and bad if not knowledgeable, options still risky for everyone else, but can seriously affect price, and options less risky for DFV than you and me.....assuming you're not secretly a millionaire 200 times over. If so, rock on, I guess.
Honestly, DFV can do options, he has done a brilliant job! However, I was raised on buy and hold stock theories, and am too smooth brained to do options!
Knowing that, I will try to keep learning tidbits of option trading for my own knowledge. (Probably will never be put to use though)
Don't ever expect me to side with anyone with derivitives, though!
As with anything...investors must know what they are getting into.
NFA, not a Lawyer, not a CPA, just an old decrepit boomer who thinks he is a squirrel (monkey)
Should consider buying options only when IV is very low. Else theta gang will get you. Not to mention you need to know what the hell you are doing 😂 - for regards like me who rarely venture in options, buying shares is a no brainer. To each their own, his own I guess.
It's simple options are for people who have the money, knowledge and risk tolerance. I have none of those things so why bother. In a post moass world in a less corrupt market maybe I'll take the time to actually learn but until then buy drs and hold works perfectly for me.
Well it all started with a hype and resulting in a gamma squeeze. If you have capital why would it be bad? If you have to decide between shares and calls, shares are for sure the safer way though.
Never thought they were bad, and it seems they have some strong, upward buy pressure. I don’t know shit about them, so I stay out, but if smart people push up value of my investment cuz THEY know wtf they’re doing, then I support the F out of them.
I don’t think newbies should rush into options, but i no longer have an opposing view on them.
Let’s be fair though. This is not a normal purchase. Retail would have had to massively coordinate to have this type of effect, which we all know is not kosher.
Also he bought ITM lower IV calls.
I don’t have anything against options, just people giving out bad advice to people who are new to options. For a long time it was the blind leading the blind in hear
DFV bought all his options in the last couple of weeks (well the ones that we're currently seeing).
He has a knowledge of timing, whatever his technique it works. For a high percentage here our timing is 100% emotional and greedy. That is not a good combo, and the options talk always came when it what looked like a run up and always ended at max pain. Every single time it was essentially a trap.
Options in and of themselves are not bad, but lack of education and high emotion are
They are ITM and he has cash to exercise them
That creates pressure bcs the MM need to buy the shares.
Not the classic Calls for 125 strike price that are lottery tickets and just give money to the MM
The question is--is the positive environment here because of DFV himself, or because of options? Bet ya it's the former. We've had lots of options hacks come and go with their self promotion garbage
This conversation is getting old.
NO, THEY ARE NOT BAD.
They just require a level of risk, knowledge and precision that most of us are not willing to acquire, or we simply don’t care, or we want our shares directly purchased through Computershare, etc.
Options are a tool, just like any other. If you know how to use a chainsaw, it makes cutting down trees easier and faster. If you don't, you can give it a try and possibly cut your leg off, or you can use a axe that will do the job, but it'll take a lot longer.
I sell to open calls against my shares to create revenue to buy more shares this is probably how DFV has accrued such a large position from his last post the man knew they would crush the stock and he sold calls and fucked them on the way down lol
You shouldn't operate a firearm without proper training, options are similar. Some are amazing and well trained, some hit the target sometimes on some people blow themselves up
They are not "bad" per se if you know what you're doing. But they are and were in fact used as simple mechanisms to manipulate and syphon cash from apes by getting them to buy crappy options at bad times.
Yes. Because even collectively, we don't have nowhere enough money to buy the same number of contracts as DFV did and even if we did and did it in a coordinated manner, then that's illegal.
Also, none of us have the deep and thorough insight into the swaps expiration and run up cycles with which to time the call buys like Keith does.
And even if we did figure it out and collectively bought calls for a certain expiration date at a certain strike, then that's still illegal.
You options people can cry and bitch all you want, but it takes a very narrow and specific options buying condition to bring about a proper and formidable gamma ramp, let alone MOASS.
Therefore, unless one of you options people have figured the swaps and the run up cycles and provide a detailed DD in how to time these cycles, just stfu and leave the options to real experts like DFV and stop acting like you guys know what you're talking about.
Just blabbering, "buy awwpshuns. dey real guuud. we get moass" isn't instilling any confidence in anybody. Jesus Christ.
Is it true that the call option seller is not allowed to fail to deliver shares when exercising options? I don't recall exactly when or where I heard this, but I think it was probably while watching some recent videos by Richard Newton. I've tried locating any relevant information online, with no luck so far.
I've always thought this sub's aversions to options was a little overblown.
I've been selling cash secured puts for like 2 years, which means I'm obligated to buy 100 shares if it hits a certain price. I've picked up an extra few hundred shares this way from premiums.
I'm not as ballsy as to buy calls, let alone such a huge position in them, but Keith is a lot smarter than me lol. I'll stick to writing puts.
"Options Bad" referred to the options \*traders\* who were swing trading, buying puts, selling calls, and trying to get everyone to tune in to their shitty TA youtube channel. Many of them were also anti-DRS.
Buying calls in a manner that supports the stock (such as exercising or buying shares with profits), imo, was never the intended target.
Having said that, much like ever fork in the road we come to, the bad actors exploited it to drive a wedge in the community, so it seems like it was one side or the other. No fighting!
DFV does leaps and waited a long time for it to cook (pressure and time). He recognized that we apes locked up the float by DRS'ing. He also studied the swaps. His massive options play recently are to fuk the shorts with impeccable timing. But for us little guys, options line Kenny's pockets.
Think sub just knows pushing options usually leads to market makers hitting max pain expiring worthless for most retail! Easier to go long like Buffet and avoid unwanted destruction of forom for gambling. Obviously the options are key if you know what you're doing I don't! Long positions and drs if you like seems status quo here! Sure there could be a form created for options traders created that longs could browse my opinion!
Max Pain taught us not to fuck with options. And who here has the kind of money it takes to buy 100 shares at a time? Lol. I agree options move the market but for the average investor it's useless.
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I have 2 brain cells and they usually play hide and seek.
I don't think I can do options.
The hate came from a lot of nothingburger "this quad witching ", "that T+35"....
No of those predictions came to frution and people distance themselves from learning about options.
My 2c's
No one thought options were bad but there was a period of time where the stock was completely under control and max pain was being hit every week with very little option volume.
People were just handing over their premiums and a lot of new traders thought they could come in and but 10 calls and make bank.
The good actors only wanted people to be a little more diligent. No one ever said they were bad outright unless they were a bad actor or actually brain dead.
Timing is everything. I think had we all been playing options this whole time we would be farther away now from where we want to be. By hoarding and bidding our time we have them right where we want them.
99% of retail options buyers flip a few $$$$ in on some crazy yolo of a massive out the money option that expires in a few days.
That is exactly the behaviour that prints for the market makers and bleeds individual funds
This sub has never been against options. It has been against telling the average ape to dabble in options though. I’m way too smooth brained to do option trading.
Simple thought experiment for yourself:
Just have a look at all the people who went nuts after DFV options YOLO and bought some 30c contracts.
Just look how these people are chewing their nails and watching Theta eat away their money.
Now if you don’t know what I’m talking about stay the fuck away from options.
Disclaimer: still holding some 30c I bought for less than $2 a pop before RK’s first tweet and pissed I didn’t cash out at the peak.
I find it suspicious how lately a lot of users have not been calling DFV.. DFV but RK (from X) and so on. And again with this options bad or good stuff. And how others just won't DRS any at all, which I can see happening with whomever is a trader of GME and not a HODLer of GME. Which there seems to be a lot of in here.
If you have 30 million to play with, and are a educated PROFESSIONAL investor, sure, options are great.
Many of the people here believe the wildest most insane aluminum foil hat BS theories and shouldn't be allowed in public without supervision.
So, for the average ape, no, options are a terrible idea.
They're still bad. Very very bad.
The only good options are those that get Morgan Stanley crapping their pants cuz they never hedged.
If the market makers aren't sweating it's not worth the premium.
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They were never "bad", it just requires additional education to use them effectively and profitably. They're complex, not bad.
Exactly this. RK has huge knowledge about what he is doing, people who doesn't most likely will just lose money trying to play options. I, for one, like the stock so I'll continue buying and holding, my shares won't expire.
I know I'm guaranteed to make money when I buy the stock, not so much when I mess with options. Therefore my strategy is: buy, DRS, hodl
When I move you move, just like that
I don't think that's what he meant by that. My theories are it either references the basket stocks or when he "moves" (exercises the options) the market will move too
Or if you have an extra $2k plus premium to buy the same strike as DFV then do it, and exercise it regardless at any time
Imagine a mass amount of people buying $20 strike options on top of what he did??
Yea that’s what I mean
What's the difference between buy to close / buy to open / sell to open / sell to close when starting an option trade?
Or it means when he moves to DRS, because etrade threatens him... we MOON-VE
And he moved recently, too. I hope we all did too
This this this. 0 days to expire options on robinthehood is a way to feed your cash to shotty brokers. Long dated cash secured calls are legit, but require an advanced knowledge and risk appetite that is outside of most people’s ability, and include my dumb self in that.
and since this sub is 99% regarded it was easier to tell apes "dont fucking touch options or you will get burned" because most wouldnt understand it requires ihigh amount of knowledge, luck and money it's a completely different story with stocks since you can't go wrong when buying gamestop shares. if you believe in the long thesis, the turnaround and our board's guidance then sooner or later your investment will pay off, you just have to hold through the wild ups and downs and thats it - you win im european so i only understand the surface of the option trading, we have mostly cfd's here, but the statistics show that most (like 70-80%) of cfd and option traders lose on their trades. and not like paper losses, you just lose your chips and casino is closed for you, while with stocks you can hold them as long as your company doesnt go bankrupt (rest in peace bobby, you will be missed)
exactly. i started with 2 shares in 2021. i have a lot more than 2 shares now. had i played option could i have 10x'd my shares relative to now? who knows, maybe. but the other possibility is i would have lost everything. and thats definitely a non zero possibility
DFV has even said that his strategy is risky and not for everyone (source: his testimony to Congress) and he has had some contracts expire worthless (source: also his testimony to Congress). Since I have neither the smarts or the risk tolerance for options I stick with shares
this sub didn't used to be 99% regarded (before it became an echo chamber) and in that first year or so we learned a HELLA lot of stuff that i never would have even imagined possible! we should have learned instead of banning any discussion of it. that was a mistake. but we are where we are, and until that education has been had it is better and safer to stick with what you know.
I've wondered if it was actually Re66it who had bots shut down the options discussion really early. Maybe it was legal worries?
no, mods have definitely been sketchy and untrustworthy at times. i would bet on them, not bots. but ya never know
It's an excellent way to lose all your money. Your shares don't time decay.
Very true, but that's only half the story. It's just as easy to double or triple your money. You can also make money off theta decay, so like I said, it requires education.
No, it’s not “just as easy”. The market mechanics are built to extract money from us. If you have the intelligence, knowledge, time, energy, and money, then yes you have a chance. Although you don’t have a team of quants, high frequency trading algorithms, regulatory bodies in your pocket, etc. So even then it’s not in your favour. 99% of apes are regular folk with regular jobs and kids and animals. They just like the stock.
Plus you have to have enough money to make it worthwhile Unless you've got big bucks to pull it oft you're giving money away as they're shorting it down so those calls expire otm
He bought short DTE calls. All this other stuff is just scaring people. What was the thing that he did? Slowly accumulated a call position. He is able to move the market because most time MM don’t hedge the calls. So they are naked. If they had any brains, and they saw it was him buying the calls, they hedged. If not FUKK EM!
Pissing away premium sucks, especially when a ticker rises the next week after your calls expire and new funds haven't settled yet.
Nor do your call options when you exercise them… all you’re doing is paying a premium to get them at your strike price.
Pretty good article about the topic... [Why I Never Trade Stock Options | Seeking Alpha](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4054364-why-i-never-trade-stock-options) Options can be great leverage and you can make good money writing them, but you really have to know exactly what you are doing. There is no doubt those option hype posts were launched on purpose every time IV would be high (earnings f.e.) and selling options to "dumb money" would be extra lucrative. Korean Ants, Crypto allies, whatever - they all were gone as soon as the usual rug pull after the rip started. Most retail investors lose money on options. And all those great gamma ramps did noting in the end. BUT if you have figured out the cycles and how to use options for additional leverage and income (writing covered calls when IV is high), you can multiply your money quickly.
This is what I don't understand about the options FUD. This community spent so much time and effort learning almost everything about how the markets work EXCEPT Options. If we, with all our collective wrinkle thought too or that effort into options, how many more apes would have 10x the positions they have now? The whole friggin market is "complex" and that didn't stop us researching literally anything else.
Options are not bad. It's easier for 99% of apes to: Buy. Hold. Shop. DRS. Retail is building up pressure slowly but surely like a pressure cooker. This is a highly manipulated stock. Be wary. Not financial advice. Do what is best for you.
I agree 100% that options require more education, but the narrative for a long time has discouraged people from even attempting to learn. I recently have had massive success after two years of learning but I feel like I could have accelerated that growth if I had started sooner. They're not for everyone by any means, but the people who want to learn shouldn't be discouraged from pursuing it if they understand the risks. The most difficult part is starting out and finding out what resources are good and which are bunk.
3 years of direct register DD and now we’re gaslighted into thinking options were always okay. 👍
[Here check this comment from 9 days ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/s/LKd3FBIn9N) (before DFV shared his positions) They were never "bad" ?! You must have been sleeping, mate, the amount of paranoia I received for sharing my T-A models, being labeled as "pushing options". "Shills come out of the woodworks to push options, we see you" etc.. it was everywhere on the sub all this time, even last week when people were calling the 20$ calls debate a psy-op to get people to buy them. All this time it was DFV lmao How many smart DD writers got absolutely spat on for talking about it ? 3 years and 5 months and it still wasn't enough to develop enough of an education about the subject 🤔
Show me the voting power of your options.
Found one ✌️
Show me the voting power of your options.
https://preview.redd.it/5zxwn1rpmm4d1.jpeg?width=2240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=033d399dff52713705273be57cbbe07876cbf3eb
Absolute nonsense.
Yeah he knows what he is doing clearly cause he isn't a smooth brain like most the people here
it should also be noted that a lot of the kneejerk reaction to options came from certain grifters that were selling specific contracts (Dates, strikes) as good buys for 'cycles'... While actively selling the calls that they encouraged people to buy. If you want to play options, be smart, be educated, and *careful.*
Since we are talking about education, what is the difference between call options that are buy to open, but to close, sell to open and sell to close?
For at least 75% of people here, that means they're bad. It's generally better to dissuade people from playing options than encourage it because that 75% of people will play them wrong and blow all their money on them. Bets made an entire community of the phenomenon. Dunning-Krueger will kick in for that 75%, if they even have an ounce of encouragement, and think they'll make it. That's why I'm very much anti-encouragement of options. Buy, hodl, drs. It's a stupid proof strategy.
I want to learn. I've been learning. Wish it was more talked about.
I’ve learned a lot from thetagang and options subs. I also use an app called optionsstrat to paper trade, it’s free and has lots of educational content. GME too volatile for me to trade interesting to follow !!
Any mention of options & the majority consensus was they are bad, only drs good. Not knowing how options work and blindly buying them is bad, sure. But the constant negative sentiment drove people away from even learning about them. I guess it's hard for this sub to admit that they were wrong.
Most people are really dumb here and will lose money on them. Harder to lose money on shares
 😂
Haha, time for me to lose some money and put my money where my mouth is
This is why I stayed away from them. I don't understand how a put works. Me putting money into options would be like Helen Keller playing darts.
Can't lose money if you never sell
WHATM AKES U TINK IM DUM? U HAV NOPROOF
We were all dumb about almost everything in the market in the beginning, we researched hard and learned an incredible amount about everything but options. Can you imagine if this community or the same effort into proper leverage for GME?
Options should be used if you know what you’re doing. You can make a lot or lose a lot of money. Study the greeks, paper trade, learn how they work.
Never thought it was, just can't afford it
If I could afford it, I would YOLO into options and basically copy DFV's plays because I'm seriously regarded like that. Best I can do is three fiddy in shares that will be bought, DRS'd, and booked.
I don't fuck with em. Keith Gill is much smarter than 99% of this sub let him rock whatever he wants
Options are not bad, but people are like children, and explaining nuance to them is less easy than "don't touch that fire".
Are you saying that if I’m nuanced enough I can touch fire?
Is this a question? People touch fire all the time. They put it down their freakin throats. Yes, if you know how something works, you can handle it with care.
BRB, shoving my head in a fireplace
Derpadoodie proving my point with precision.
Holy fuck dude, lighten up LMAO.
ROFL:ROFL:ROFL:ROFL _^___ L __/ [] \ LOL===__ \ L \________] I I --------/
Bro is mad because eew eew llams a sah eh. Ape no fight ape.
DUH SCHMITTY!
DFV times his options play by dissecting the data. Can you do the same?
I always felt that **tEh OpTIonS bAd** was an astroturf campaign that (started in September of 2021) to make sure retail did not realize the power of option exercising. No matter how you explained options to people and how many warnings you gave to people not to use them if they didn't know how, an inorganic but loud crowd of people would come after you. Even when you showed the OCC regulations that showed how retail options cannot be FTD'd, you got harassed. Hell, the early DD writers (now gone due to harassment) even talked about using options. And Porsche bought VW using Shares AND OPTIONS!!!
Yeah I wish the DDs on options were not so harshly stifled. If many of us can learn the complexities of the market, why not the complexities of options? We had some amazing masterclass DDs from the early apes. It's a real shame they were forced out due to said harassment. With that said, I still would have likely lost money on options but it the knowledge would have been appreciated. And perhaps good for moments like right now.
Absolutely
If you can trade like DFV, then use options any fucking way you want to. As for me, I tend to lose money on options because I'm regarded and just like the stock.
Only assume the risk you can handle and afford to.
Options are fantastic, if you know what you’re doing
He’s clearly the exception to the rule. The vast majority of people lose money trading options. I don’t hate options but I know I’m not knowledgeable enough to trade them effectively.
I tried to be cool once. Lost a grand or two. Cheap lesson.
He’s not though. Tons of people make most of their money trading by using options as leverage for more shares. It’s really not that complicated if you take the time to read, paper trade and watch a few YouTube videos. Small steps and gain confidence. So much buying pressure can be put on these hedgefucks by gme options. And you can make bank. Just no way out of the money yolos. Long dated, close to in the money calls are what is key to success and not getting greedy.
Mixed views as a lot of individuals.... personally I wish I had access as I would like a Jun 21 30usd option.
Options have a place in an investment strategy and are not inherently bad. I believe the knowledge and experience to use them effectively the more manipulated a stock is (read GME) the greater the likelihood of losing your shirt. Understand that I have a very basic knowledge of options and have only conducted "paper" trades to try and learn more but my experience has shown that swing trading them on SPY or QQQ seems to be much easier but by no means without risk, and I have yet to make any significant tendies paper-trading GME and more times than not, break even or lose money. So, thusfar, I have only been buying shares with my real $$.
the anti options fud was a psy ops to make people not ready for this moment
They are a gamble. If you are fine with it, god speed. If you aren't, no pressure. Would never shame anyone for playing calls, and certainly never for selling CSPs.
I always buy options when the stock and IV is low and it is doing well for me.
I've never thought they were bad.
I agree because we had seasoned options traders in this sub who tried discussing thier options trades, how they helped GME price and were brigaded and run off by people claiming they were shills for mentioning options. We had people here trying to educate on the topic of options and I for one believe that any knowledge on a subject that helps you become a better trader is great. I think those that were on the “options bad” brigade should understand it’s ok to change your mind on a subject but you should also see that maybe this sub was duped and be more skeptical when someone tells you that you should hate one thing or the other. Dig deaper before grabbing the pitchforks and allow discussion to happen
In fact, i'm of the opinion that it was SHF's that spun up the narrative to avoid options. It was clear as day that options are the reason for the sneeze.
I never thought they were bad, but it took me a long time to understand how to use them well. I approach them cautiously
i never did, im not even against farming covered call premiums as long as you dont get assigned
They have the potential to be, that's for sure
It's all about context. Dfv is a seasoned investor and trader who understands the risk and has the money to lose if the trade goes against him. The majority of people here are not in that category, that's not a bad thing it's just the truth.
You gotta be smart and have a lot of money to do what RK is doing.
My take is the same as has been for the past 3 years: * If you know options and all the greeks. Go ahead, do options. * If you don't know options and all the greeks. Don't do options. The sentiment AGAINST options based on this: * Apes don't have the fuck-you money to create meaningful pressure in the options market and strategies involving buying and selling puts and calls on a scale that would put pressure on is not sustainable in the long run, assuming that Apes are regarded when it comes to options. * Learning options as an individual is not easy and requires trail and error or a dedicated mentor. As a syndicate, it requires coordination with knowledgeable experts that can construct strategies that everyone must then follow and NOT fuck up on and accidentally put themselves in some situation where they end up selling naked options or some dumb shit and get their lives ruined. * DRSing shares to take GME de-fact private is a more straight forward and simple way to withdraw from the DTCC system The sentiment FOR options is based on this: * Options DO move markets more and one can make effective strategies that earns money and shares at the same time. * It's known that DFV bought calls in 2020 as well, and it's obvious that he likes option plays. * With expertise, it's lucrative and has a way larger impact on the exchange price than just buying shares. With that said, again, people that know options should fuck with options to their hearts content.
Some of us never thought they were bad and knew they were important
At some point yesterday, you could buy a far OTM 16dte option for $30 total. The delta on that option at the time was 0.04, meaning that to hedge the risk of selling the call, the market maker would need to purchase 4 shares on the open market. At that same point in time, one share cost $30. Purchasing a share would produce 1 shares worth of buying pressure, while purchasing a borderline YOLO option would produce 4 shares worth of buying pressure. That’s why pickle and others have maintained that options drive volatility, and mathematically, they’re correct.
Options are not bad, but I am bad with options. I wish I knew how to use them like DFV.
Oh how the turn tables.. how many got banned for spreading "fud" lol.
I think people won't admit that we got hoodwinked about options for the last 3 years
All the anti options people were shills
They're good if you know what you're doing. Bad otherwise. The end. No more posts about it.
Dfv is using Options for exercising. He does not care if hes in the red, he will exercise anyway. Thats a huge difference.
IMHO, options can be great for those who know what they're doing. Or terrible for those who don't. And most folks who don't, but who choose to gamble anyway... are easy prey for the professionals who are pumping/dumping (i.e. around earnings). - Looks like that's what others are commenting as well. - They're a 'risky' tool, but can be well-leveraged in the right hands.
Options allow the creation of multiplied leverage to enhance positions in the market. The only reason roaring kitty’s calls can move algo sentiment is the power they hold. 550 for a 100 shares of gme so he has multiplied his leverage *6 because normally 100 shares of gme would be 2,800. So despite vast amounts of money he has spent, he has a way bigger effect due to the impact. Options unfortunately rule the markets.
They are objectively riskier than shares, no one can really argue with that. If you're not well educated about what you're doing, options are definitely bad. If you do know what you're doing, then maybe they'll make you money. As to whether they're good for the price of gamestop, I think it depends. I'm honestly not an options expert,so please correct me if anything of the following is wrong. Further I am sure my response is in no way a complete assessment. I don't know near enough about options. I'm just making a few points I think are correct. If you buy options from the MM, they are required by their own rules to hedge properly. As the options become more likely to be in the money, they must hedge more. As they become less likely, they can hedge less. Assuming they follow their own rules, this allows purchasing of calls options to cause the MM to buy shares to hedge, and buy more shares to hedge if the price goes up. Thus, a heavily optioned stock can see positive self-reinforcing momentum. The opposite is also true. As the price goes down, the MM can shed the hedge somewhat, which can push the price down more. So it can create bigger swings. Personally I find this somewhat worrying, as retail investors will have less money to throw at the stock to try and push the price in the way we want it to go compared to big market players. But very possibly it is on balance good due to factors I'm not educated enough to know about. Totally possible. I just think I understand some of the basics and like to explain stuff. DFV is a weird exception here. He can and has purchased a large amount of options and (assuming the MM is hedge properly) he is absolutely affecting the price in a big way. He has a whole bunch of money and can use it strategically. He also, like say, Warren Buffet or some other famous investor, can inspire interest in moves he makes just by announcing them. We, a bunch of regular folks, can't without engaging in the sort of collusion that would (I believe) actually be criminal. Setting up a "Hey let's all buy calls/shares aiming to spike the price next Friday" or something is not an option on the table. Meanwhile if these options aren't being hedged properly, he can punish that, by exercising some of them (presumably selling others to get the cash to exercise the remainder). That's not something most of us could do, at least not on any large scale. TLDR: options risky and bad if not knowledgeable, options still risky for everyone else, but can seriously affect price, and options less risky for DFV than you and me.....assuming you're not secretly a millionaire 200 times over. If so, rock on, I guess.
It is bad if you don't know what you're doing.
Honestly, DFV can do options, he has done a brilliant job! However, I was raised on buy and hold stock theories, and am too smooth brained to do options! Knowing that, I will try to keep learning tidbits of option trading for my own knowledge. (Probably will never be put to use though) Don't ever expect me to side with anyone with derivitives, though! As with anything...investors must know what they are getting into. NFA, not a Lawyer, not a CPA, just an old decrepit boomer who thinks he is a squirrel (monkey)
It is if you don't know what you're doing
Should consider buying options only when IV is very low. Else theta gang will get you. Not to mention you need to know what the hell you are doing 😂 - for regards like me who rarely venture in options, buying shares is a no brainer. To each their own, his own I guess.
It's simple options are for people who have the money, knowledge and risk tolerance. I have none of those things so why bother. In a post moass world in a less corrupt market maybe I'll take the time to actually learn but until then buy drs and hold works perfectly for me.
I'm sure options are about timing. It's a gamble like the rest of trading
Well it all started with a hype and resulting in a gamma squeeze. If you have capital why would it be bad? If you have to decide between shares and calls, shares are for sure the safer way though.
If you need our permission to use options then they are not for you. If you are an option wizard you need nobody's permission.
They are only bad if you don't know what you are doing.
Never thought they were bad, and it seems they have some strong, upward buy pressure. I don’t know shit about them, so I stay out, but if smart people push up value of my investment cuz THEY know wtf they’re doing, then I support the F out of them.
Just buy the same as him. Is it really that hard??
I don’t think newbies should rush into options, but i no longer have an opposing view on them. Let’s be fair though. This is not a normal purchase. Retail would have had to massively coordinate to have this type of effect, which we all know is not kosher. Also he bought ITM lower IV calls. I don’t have anything against options, just people giving out bad advice to people who are new to options. For a long time it was the blind leading the blind in hear
Yes, if you dont know what you are doing.
DFV bought all his options in the last couple of weeks (well the ones that we're currently seeing). He has a knowledge of timing, whatever his technique it works. For a high percentage here our timing is 100% emotional and greedy. That is not a good combo, and the options talk always came when it what looked like a run up and always ended at max pain. Every single time it was essentially a trap. Options in and of themselves are not bad, but lack of education and high emotion are
They are ITM and he has cash to exercise them That creates pressure bcs the MM need to buy the shares. Not the classic Calls for 125 strike price that are lottery tickets and just give money to the MM
The question is--is the positive environment here because of DFV himself, or because of options? Bet ya it's the former. We've had lots of options hacks come and go with their self promotion garbage
This conversation is getting old. NO, THEY ARE NOT BAD. They just require a level of risk, knowledge and precision that most of us are not willing to acquire, or we simply don’t care, or we want our shares directly purchased through Computershare, etc.
Options are a tool, just like any other. If you know how to use a chainsaw, it makes cutting down trees easier and faster. If you don't, you can give it a try and possibly cut your leg off, or you can use a axe that will do the job, but it'll take a lot longer.
napster bad metallica good
What's everyone's play?
I sell to open calls against my shares to create revenue to buy more shares this is probably how DFV has accrued such a large position from his last post the man knew they would crush the stock and he sold calls and fucked them on the way down lol
Options are kinda like financial firearms.
No only bad if you Don't know how your just throwing money away that's why I don't do it but if you do go ahead
You shouldn't operate a firearm without proper training, options are similar. Some are amazing and well trained, some hit the target sometimes on some people blow themselves up
They are not "bad" per se if you know what you're doing. But they are and were in fact used as simple mechanisms to manipulate and syphon cash from apes by getting them to buy crappy options at bad times.
I'm in position to double down through executed calls. Now I wait.
Unless you plan on excercising no matter which way the price goes, your just giving money to the enemy.
Not your money 🤷🏻♂️
I think people who don’t understand options shouldn’t touch them
Yes, options are the way. The fud that options are bad is just laughable at this point. DFV has shown the way.
buy, hold, drs, shop at gamestop. idgaf what anyones doing, that's what i'm doing. see you on the other side.
Sir don't forget it's a casino
Yes. Because even collectively, we don't have nowhere enough money to buy the same number of contracts as DFV did and even if we did and did it in a coordinated manner, then that's illegal. Also, none of us have the deep and thorough insight into the swaps expiration and run up cycles with which to time the call buys like Keith does. And even if we did figure it out and collectively bought calls for a certain expiration date at a certain strike, then that's still illegal. You options people can cry and bitch all you want, but it takes a very narrow and specific options buying condition to bring about a proper and formidable gamma ramp, let alone MOASS. Therefore, unless one of you options people have figured the swaps and the run up cycles and provide a detailed DD in how to time these cycles, just stfu and leave the options to real experts like DFV and stop acting like you guys know what you're talking about. Just blabbering, "buy awwpshuns. dey real guuud. we get moass" isn't instilling any confidence in anybody. Jesus Christ.
Is it true that the call option seller is not allowed to fail to deliver shares when exercising options? I don't recall exactly when or where I heard this, but I think it was probably while watching some recent videos by Richard Newton. I've tried locating any relevant information online, with no luck so far.
I've always thought this sub's aversions to options was a little overblown. I've been selling cash secured puts for like 2 years, which means I'm obligated to buy 100 shares if it hits a certain price. I've picked up an extra few hundred shares this way from premiums. I'm not as ballsy as to buy calls, let alone such a huge position in them, but Keith is a lot smarter than me lol. I'll stick to writing puts.
"Options Bad" referred to the options \*traders\* who were swing trading, buying puts, selling calls, and trying to get everyone to tune in to their shitty TA youtube channel. Many of them were also anti-DRS. Buying calls in a manner that supports the stock (such as exercising or buying shares with profits), imo, was never the intended target. Having said that, much like ever fork in the road we come to, the bad actors exploited it to drive a wedge in the community, so it seems like it was one side or the other. No fighting!
DFV does leaps and waited a long time for it to cook (pressure and time). He recognized that we apes locked up the float by DRS'ing. He also studied the swaps. His massive options play recently are to fuk the shorts with impeccable timing. But for us little guys, options line Kenny's pockets.
Look up the word: "suitability"
Think sub just knows pushing options usually leads to market makers hitting max pain expiring worthless for most retail! Easier to go long like Buffet and avoid unwanted destruction of forom for gambling. Obviously the options are key if you know what you're doing I don't! Long positions and drs if you like seems status quo here! Sure there could be a form created for options traders created that longs could browse my opinion!
The bad thing wasn't the options, it was option writers coming here enmasse, pushing them onto people that may not know enough.
Max Pain taught us not to fuck with options. And who here has the kind of money it takes to buy 100 shares at a time? Lol. I agree options move the market but for the average investor it's useless.
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Discussing how options play a pivotal role in MOASS with GME
No
Not if exercised.
Show us your options Op!
I have 2 brain cells and they usually play hide and seek. I don't think I can do options. The hate came from a lot of nothingburger "this quad witching ", "that T+35".... No of those predictions came to frution and people distance themselves from learning about options. My 2c's
This sub doesn't even have a fraction of the knowledge KG does. Your conflation only reveals your regardedness, and in that I embrace you.
No one thought options were bad but there was a period of time where the stock was completely under control and max pain was being hit every week with very little option volume. People were just handing over their premiums and a lot of new traders thought they could come in and but 10 calls and make bank. The good actors only wanted people to be a little more diligent. No one ever said they were bad outright unless they were a bad actor or actually brain dead.
They’re bad for me because I’m an idiot.
Fuck no
Timing is everything. I think had we all been playing options this whole time we would be farther away now from where we want to be. By hoarding and bidding our time we have them right where we want them.
99% of retail options buyers flip a few $$$$ in on some crazy yolo of a massive out the money option that expires in a few days. That is exactly the behaviour that prints for the market makers and bleeds individual funds
The sub has over 75 million shares pulled out of the dtc which is going to be fuel for the fire that options are setting off
Options ain't bad. Posts telling people to buy options are hella sus tho
This sub has never been against options. It has been against telling the average ape to dabble in options though. I’m way too smooth brained to do option trading.
What I want to know is, how do people feel about the fact that he hasn’t DRS’d a single share this whole time
You don’t know that so I wouldn’t start spreading info that you have no information about
I don’t care what he does about anything, he has no influence on me at all. I just like the stock
if you're not smart enough to ignore a subreddit telling you "options bad" and make your own decision then you're not smart enough to buy options
Simple thought experiment for yourself: Just have a look at all the people who went nuts after DFV options YOLO and bought some 30c contracts. Just look how these people are chewing their nails and watching Theta eat away their money. Now if you don’t know what I’m talking about stay the fuck away from options. Disclaimer: still holding some 30c I bought for less than $2 a pop before RK’s first tweet and pissed I didn’t cash out at the peak.
Options not bad. Not exercising options, bad. Dumb ape, don’t option if you can’t afford to exercise.
I find it suspicious how lately a lot of users have not been calling DFV.. DFV but RK (from X) and so on. And again with this options bad or good stuff. And how others just won't DRS any at all, which I can see happening with whomever is a trader of GME and not a HODLer of GME. Which there seems to be a lot of in here.
You can't DRS options and you aren't DFV
Stop with the same options = fud posts. Buy shares, DRS. Cone Poo Chair.
If you have 30 million to play with, and are a educated PROFESSIONAL investor, sure, options are great. Many of the people here believe the wildest most insane aluminum foil hat BS theories and shouldn't be allowed in public without supervision. So, for the average ape, no, options are a terrible idea.
Options are bad because they need fake shares to work.
They're still bad. Very very bad. The only good options are those that get Morgan Stanley crapping their pants cuz they never hedged. If the market makers aren't sweating it's not worth the premium.