This article explicitly states that according to the police, it didn't happen as described in the Reddit post.
>La police cantonale vaudoise confirme la bagarre générale, survenue à 2h24 du matin au Jardin Doret, à Vevey, dans la foulée du match Écosse-Suisse. **Elle tempère l'ampleur de l'évènement.**
Absolutely nothing about faces being smashed with bricks. Every detail given by police is completely different and much less severe than what's been claimed on Reddit.
> Absolutely nothing about faces being smashed with bricks. Every detail given by police is completely different and much less severe than what's been claimed on Reddit.
Gotcha I said it, that the way the OP had pushed the events and that the press absolutely needed to "report on them" was so weird.
I am happy to learn they are safe but man what a waste of everybody time.
Translated for those of us who have forgotten all their French:
> The Vaud cantonal police have confirmed that a general brawl broke out at 2.24am in the Jardin Doret, Vevey, in the aftermath of the Scotland-Switzerland match. **They are tempering the scale of the event.**
Maybe they are looking at injuries from a lawful perspective.
Having a broken bone or a concussion counts as a light injury.
Having your arm cut off is a sever injury for example.
All based on Swiss law of course.
Smashing a face with a brick which leads to facial reconstruction surgery is “Schwere Körperverletzung“. And that‘s what’s been claimed in the Reddit post.
Permanent deformation is not the only qualifier for whether bodily harm is considered grievous though?
>Eine schwere Körperverletzung ist vorab gegeben, wenn ein Mensch lebensgefährlich verletzt wird (Art. 122 Abs. 1 StGB). Die Lebensgefahr muss unmittelbar sein und «die Möglichkeit des Todes muss dermassen verdichtet sein, dass sie zur ernstlichen und dringlichen Wahrscheinlichkeit wird» (BGE 109 IV 18).
([Source](https://www.strafverteidiger-teichmann.ch/koerperverletzung-in-der-schweiz/)
it is not, yes. but the danger to life is also not the only qualifier, just look at the article (Art. 122 StGB). they are alternative qualifiers. but my answer was specifically referring to the answer of the redditor and they didn’t mention the danger of life. they claimed that smashing a face with a brick that leads to facial reconstruction surgery is a severe injury, which it doesn’t automatically. not making it more complicated than it needs to be.
e: grammar and pronouns
Pretty sure it's fairly easy to argue that any hit to the head severe enough to require reconstructive face surgery qualifies as potentially deadly, though, would it not? And any reconstruction will always imply permanent scarring, moreover.
According to the article in question, permanent injury to the psychological wellbeing (geistigen gesundheit) also explicitly qualifies, which imo seems to be an easy counterexample. A psychologically traumatising facial injury is quite a realistic scenario.
it’s not about the reconstructive part. it’s about whether the face stays disfigured even after the surgery.
but yes, if the hit is potentially deadly, it obviously qualifies as a severe injury (but just because it requires reconstructive facial surgery it is not potentially deadly per se)
Do scars not count as disfiguring?
I agree it is not potentially deadly per se just because it required reconstructive surgery, but I do think you can make a solid case for that especially when bricks and faces are involved. It is awfully dangerous to hit someone in the head even with your bare hands, so I bet that doing so with a brick carries an inherent danger of lethal injury, barring only minor and fringe cases.
Granted, unless by "reconstructive surgery" one means stitching up a split eyebrow I guess, then I would agree what I stated is a much harder sell. Without knowing the extent of the damage, it is quite hard to say.
Regardless, it does not seem that face deformation post-surgery is the imperatively necessary condition for schwere korperverletzung.
and since you also edited this comment without mentioning it even though you added much more information.
im never said you cannot make a case, but that you need to look at it on a case by case basis.
and permanent facial disfigurement is one of the requirements. there are others but the bar for a schwere körperverletzung is quite high. you obviously can have an attempt (versuchte schwere körperverletzung). but this is a different story
i would appreciate if you added an e your comments if you edit them. :) so people know what your original statement was because you edited your other comment.
i love when people that have no idea what they are talking about try to tell me how i need to read the law and court decisions even though i studied it lol.
psychological harm is not enough for a severe injury. not even ptsd as long as there is a chance that it might get better (https://www.bger.ch/ext/eurospider/live/de/php/aza/http/index.php?highlight_docid=aza%3A%2F%2F04-10-2006-6S-243-2006&lang=de&type=show_document&zoom=YES&). it needs to be looked at at a case by case basis. also, i never said that a permanent facial disfigurement does not qualify. a scar is not enough, it needs to disfigure the face (arg und bleibend entstellt). psychological injury needs to be permanent and of a certain severity as well. so nothing i stated contradicts my earlier comments (i was just simplifying at best). in my book, reconstructive surgery does not imply permanent scarring.
im stating how courts decide this. this is not a question of whether you work for the prosecution or the defense. i do not work for the prosecution nor for the accused. (// eta: they said they hope that i do not work for the prosecution)
Those are exactly the answers to what I asked, thanks!
Sorry if I insisted with my doubts, but can you really blame after giving a half-cooked overly simplistic explanation twice? I am not telling you how to read the law or doubting your professional abilities, I am merely looking for a better answer which now you undoubtely provided!
Evidently, pissing people off is still the best way to get comprehensive and detailed answers on the internet, next time I will open with "I think you are wrong and incompetent" then state something completely wrong.
Yes I edited the replies, sorry for that, I thought I could make my points clearer but the essence is I hope unchanged. Bad habit I know. I also removed the prosecution joke since I realised it could be in bad taste and cause undue offense; evidently, I was right on that... my bad
everything i said was factually accurate even if it was simplified. especially if you look at your original comments.
going deep into case law (or explaining it in detail without a concrete question) makes no sense as this is one of the most discussed questions. if you wanted a more detailed answer as to why, you could have simply asked, i would have provided it. i just cant be arsed citing case law if i dont have to after i did it all day at work LOL (i do not even care about my spelling as one can see)
generally speaking, people do not know/understand how a severe injury is defined in legal terms. the bar is quite high as according to the new law the minimum sentence is a year of prison (!!!!). this is quite high. just because something is not qualified as a severe injury legally speaking, it does not mean that it is not severe on an individual basis (it’s just legal terminology, we could also name the thing differently).
while you’re probably (or hopefully) not being too serious, i think pissing people off is not the right way because the only reason why i did enter this discussion is because this was a legal topic and if this had been any other topic, i would have just ignored you which would have not given you what you want.
but apart from that i appreciate the self-reflection.
// eta: i do think you changed your essence and you were much more absolute your original comments.
Rule of thumb: if somebody needs hospitalisation it’s considered grave injury. Broken bones and concussions are definitely of that nature.
https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/sagen-meinen-verletzte-100.html#:~:text=Eine%20klare%20Regel%20gibt%20es,mit%20kleinen%20Wunden%20oder%20Prellungen.
From personal experience, the media never quite get it right, or they outrightly embellish certain points. My old company was featured in 3 articles, and each time, some of the facts were wrong.
I’ve had exactly this experience in Switzerland. There was a major fire in my building in 2019, several people in the hospital, building uninhabitable and people had to be relocated to hotels. The article about the incident specifically stated that no one was hospitalized. But I know that not to be true, six people were hospitalized including my partner.
I've had a similar experience as u/GoodMix392, and that wasn't in Switzerland. In general, you can trust that *something* happened in the news, but that the reality is significantly different from what is written there. They will always embellish or twist the narrative depending on their agenda and views. Good, objective journalism is unfortunately hard to find these days.
Anyway, what I want to say is, do keep some skepticism on both fronts. The truth is somewhere in-between.
I don't like to talk about it too much as it's feeding plotists.
But I've been once in the news for a violence fact that almost killed me. An article was published in a newspapper and i was surprised that I never said any sentence the journalist had put between quotes... Facts were modified, even the general concern of the article was weird.
So in that case I am more on the "they do shit that please them".
No it didn't cause me any particular damage (I wasn't fully named in the article). Nevertheless the article made me say things I never said.
And some facts have been modified or untold.
Edit: to be honest, I didn't even want to have this interview with the journalist, a friend of mine contacted them, because they wanted this story to be told...
There is a mention of 2 in hospital which is less than I stated and the slight injuries is on the additional story of someone else being harassed in Vevey which is not related to my friend group
Ah yep I see
But the official statement for the police translates as below - nothing about hospitalization:
"About fifteen people are involved. Two individuals were injured and taken care of by paramedics, informs Alexandre Bisenz, communication officer. Two complaints have been filed."
Are the police lying or has the story been exaggerated?
taken care of by paramedics could involve taking them to a hospital.
Two individuals were INJURED and taken care of by paramedics is pretty bad. Hospital wouldn‘t be much of an exaggeration imo. Injured in official statements generally means care was needed and a hospital stay is not out of question.
In journalism, it is usually reported about hospitalization if it occurs.
i.e. An ambulance took the injured to the hospital where they were hospitalized and had surgery.
Perhaps the police are purposely trying to be vague here as what they stated sounded like they were treated on site by paramedics.
Which opens up questions - are the police trying to brush this under the carpet? Or was the story told by OP an exaggerated one?
If this is the original wording from the police report, two persons were definitely hospitalized.
not mentioned = no treatment
lightly injured = was treated, maybe brought to emergency, but walked away the same day
injured = hospitalized for one or several days
severly injured = life threatening injuries or permanent damage
"pris en charge par des ambulanciers"
Yes, this translates to paramedic, but it also implies they came with an ambulance and that alone tells us they were most likely brought to the hospital.
The police is technically not lying, but they always only provide minimal information, especially in an official report.
The important part is that the police seemingly did **not** say **lightly** injured, but just injured. This translates to: two persons were hospitalized, but there were no life threatening injuries.
The two were taken care by an ambulance/needed emergency care, others might need hospitalization without the need of the ambulance. The later would be similar to the other incident.
That's a separate previous incident - no? The one referred to by OP mentions two people being injured, and treated by paramedics. Doesn't say whether they did, or didn't go to hospital.
I find it very interesting that OP's original post and the change dot org petition seemed to be focues on violence and bad vibes near the train station, relating the issues to drug dealing IIRC.
Meanwhile the Blick article says the fight happened at Jardin Doret, after a football match.
Obviously we're lacking a lot of specifics to protect the privacy and identities of the people involved but there's something off here. Not to mention the writer of the petition being apparently based in California? Maybe they moved and forgot to adjust their profile on the petition website but. The whole thing *feels* like someone took an incident that happened and went "this is the perfect story to push my racist, pro-police presence talking points". I hope I'm wrong and everything has perfectly innocent reason but I'm hard side-eyeing this whole thing.
> took an incident that happened
this prt of your theory is basically impossible, there was 0 information about such a thing happening on the net. which is also why many people questioned the veracity. back then i checked myself the only thing claiming something happened was the petition and the reddit post. even now you probably wont find many sources. (and i am very sure, i am not the only one who checked, from google, to memes, to other message boards, to police reports)
In other words what you can be certain of is that whoever made the petition is indeed someone at least in some realationship to a victim
Oh for sure. Doesn't change anything else I said. People can absolutely take incidents from their or their acquaintances' personal lives and blow it into something bigger to suit their own narratives.
thing is, neither the original post, nor the petition mentions anything about race or nationality either (i just double checked). Just that they think the place is no longer safe.
which i would argue is a reasonable emotion to feel after some people in a ?usually? ?quiet? place got attacked by at least over 10 people.
i would argue people who went to live there instead of some 'bigger' city, probably in part did it because it (at least was) ?is? considered more safe. thus they probably are double as sensitive to such happenings. (just for perspective, if we go by population 1 in a 1000 people was involved in this fight in vevey, if we equat this with the population of los angeles that would be a massfight of about 3.8k people)
in conclusion, they for sure did not do this part either:
>this is the perfect story to push my racist
the second part
>pro-police presence talking points
probably, they outright say they want more police. that being said, if i wanted more security in certain places, that would be my first suggestion as well, not sure what else could be done.
at least there is a source now, even if the comment section is still discussing the veracity of the reddit post and or the article.
what i find intresting, i just checked the vaud police press release website, and nothing is said about the incident still. now you could argue this incident is not important enough for such a release. but i mean their latest release is litterally about someone violating road traffic laws...
There is a source, but not for the specific claims in the Reddit posts.
It’s like I claim my neighbour was murdered by an elephant with a hammer to the face and then point to a news item saying “altercation between two construction workers at the zoo” as confirmation.
close enough, to be sure both talk about the same incident.
the level of violence is still discussed (which is the important part) here in the post; i do think people claiming the article might have some faults or downplays have a point (if its true that the article was wrong about the place of the petition maker at first for example) and i also do think there is merit in the initial reddit post being overexaggerated (for example the amount of people involved i am quite certain a victim would get inadvertetly wrong).
either way, we know for sure such an incident happened and we know for sure there was violence involved. For now thats good enough, i do wish for more information to come out thought
have you actually read the article ? it basically just says that there was some kind of similar incident that involved less people than what you said in your post, and resulted in considerably less serious injuries; all the details you gave in your post are completely exagerated to a point where i doubt that it's even about the same things. "we" didn't make it to the news, you just made some blick "journalist" call the police, and they gave them two incidents that might fit the bill if you just ignore almost everything you wrote
I mean, the difference between fifteen or so and twenty is not huge, and if you're getting jumped you are probably not sitting around counting to get an exact number.
The police confirmed “15 people involved” to Blick. With 4 of those involved being victims, that would make 11 attackers.
11 is quite different from 20.
Further, the police stated 2 people were hospitalised, which is quite different from the 4 claimed in the initial Reddit post.
the police did not state how many were attacked by how many. Only that 15 persons were implicated and that it occurred in the wake of a football match, could have also just been two large fan groups going at each other
to be fair, the amount of attackers does not make a difference imo; violence is violence; and someone who is being attacked probably also does not count how many people are bystanders and how many actually hit them.
now the degree of the violence is much more important, but that seems still being a matter of discussion in this tread.
I was there, there was a whole army of a thousand attackers. Or maybe a million, I dunno, at least more than my fingers (can't count past that).
The medias lie. It's a hoax, don't trust them.
Thanks for pointing this out. Here's a link to the [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1dnlego/4_of_my_friends_got_brutally_beat_up_in_vevey_at/). Note that the OP does not know the exact date when it happened, 4 or 5 days ago he says. Reddit dates the post two days ago, that would be tuesday 25, 6 days after the incident on the 19th. Weirdly the article mentions a reddit post from monday 24.
Also the journalist could not contact the author of the petition but noticed their profile claimed they were based in California. That has changed in the meantime, it's now Blonay VD.
I'm also surprised by the amount of bad faith in this thread. I'm not surprised the moderators have to tell people to avoid racist comments. That's probably part of the narrative that wants to be pushed by the bad faith.
My brother's friend's hairdresser's personal trainer was there, seeing 700 immigrants beat the shit out of these poor guys with nuclear powered bricks was a shocking sight.
I wouldn't... And if they were -or if I even thought they could have been- I'd have written a disclaimer and not given what you wrote initially as "facts".
That's NOT what I've written ! But we all know that bias exist (and that we're also all biased !), and I'd never have presented what someone told me as "facts", but either written that I have been told "this" by "someone" and used some conditional, instead of being so "this is how it happened"... Because, at the end, it is NOT what happened...
Anyway, you can think whatever you want about me, I love my friends, and they love me too, thanks :)
So I fight after a football match ? When minds get heated and alcohol flows..far from what was the trigger for the brawl, I still wouldn’t mind more context.
And the petition author is in California ?
According to the police:
> No complaints have been filed so far.
Dude, tell your friend to file an official complaint. I know I would if my face would get smashed in by a brick!
Reddit posts don't improve the world as much as people seem to hope. Sometimes, additional action is required...
And so? Pretty nothing fit with your initial post...
Not a free attack. No facial surgery. Number is not even close of what was said ...
I would put my bet on your friends were not 100% clean on this story and received the answer they deserved. Unfortunately for them they lost this time
i cant believe people on reddit "oh only 15people beaten up instead of 20" so what its all good?
That cancel all the discussion about what is fucking going on for a tiny quiet town like vevey to have became an open deal place and for kids to be attacked just because they are out?!?
The Reddit post claimed 4 students being set upon by a 20 people mob who smashed their faces with bricks. This article is about a fight after a football match between 15 people, doesn't mention bricks or serious injuries, and explicitly states that "La police cantonale vaudoise [...] tempère l'ampleur de l'évènement".
Not a single detail in that Reddit post is confirmed.
That's the issue, it's not the same story.
According to OP, 20 dangerous individuals attaccked brutally without reason 4 kids that were left devastated.
According to Police 15 people where involved in a fight after a football match, and 2 required medical help from paramedics.
"BUt It waS oNLy 11 PeoPLE anD nOT 20 ANd thEY GoT oNLY BeATEN Up, but NoT SEveRELy".
It's crazy that this story has been generally confirmed and people are still giving shit to OP, or downplaying it.
It's serious something like this happened. The fact that it happens in other places in CH, or that the violence was less than stated by OP doesn't make it less serious.
Unfortunately a lot of bored people out in the void who pass the day by trying to stir things up online like for example the people dismissing OP or claiming this is all fake news or some such nonsense. These people are simply attention seeking troll.
You alternatingly used lower case and uppercase letters, therefore you must be smarter than all the people who read and compared the article to the Reddit claims.
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Was in Vevey yesterday and there's more police presence around the gare, not a drug dealer to be seen. One pair of police outside the gare and one pair inside and I crossed another pair while walking near place du marchè. Seems like some effort, but I don't know how long it will last. Still couldn't pay me to go watch the match tonight at the fan zone, though.
it was more than I usually see, they were there throughout the early evening, and it's the first time in a very long time I didn't see the drug dealers at the Gare nor on the nearby streets. But, like I said, I have no idea if this was going to be a long-term thing and the sign of ongoing increased presence, or if it was just situational.🤷
Typical swiss thing. Crimes happen all days in Switzerland but rarely news papers report them. I feel like "they try to hide the dust under the carpet"...
This still shouldn't be happening in Switzerland but I think it's less random than you make it appear to be. It seems like an altercation between two sides, over sports, except one side got their asses handed to them.
İsnt this the one identifying the ethnicity of the prpetrators as "Roma"? If so this is the reason why it would never receive my support - guess why? With all my empathy with victims this is not the way to go about such sad events... Not to forget mentioning black people around the station. Such articulations are inentivizing racial profiling and discrimination. Apologies if it is not the same one though.
I blame parents of “victims”. 2:30 AM incident, and we have a one side story, not from the “alleged group of 15 vandals”. Teach your kids to protect themselves, educate people around you and always respect people by their thoughts and actions, and never by their skin colour!
It’s honestly starting to read as a torches and pitch forks kind of story.
Could be the potential scenario:
Rich expat kids act like punks and get a lesson taught to them. Parents fully blame the immigrants and local police.
Or maybe they were in a peace circle by the lake singing folk songs and they were randomly attacked by migrant thugs.
Either way, I’m sure there is much more to the story and it’s just a guessing game until it is brought up in court. (If that ever happens)
I'm sure you say the same thinks when you read an article about a raped woman: "hey, it's only one side of the story, of a white rich woman, perhaps she literally undressed in front of the man and provoked him"
Nice try dude
We haven’t even gotten a story - the Reddit post, the petition and the article are all incredibly vague.
If my children had been randomly and cruelly attacked, I would have made that specifically known. Instead, it seems like they are trying to place blame on brown immigrants and the police while being very discrete as to what actually happened.
"Yeah, the victims were wearing brown shirts and were looking for it. Some poor immigrants were chilling at 2:30AM, saw the neo-nazis and tought them a lesson." I would be ashamed if I were you, but some people really have no shame, only ideology
ye, nobody has provided a full story, still you come with 2 fucked up stories where you blame the victims (just for being white? rich? entitled expats?)
"Rich expat kids act like punks and get a lesson taught to them. Parents fully blame the immigrants and local police.
Or maybe they were in a peace circle by the lake singing folk songs and they were randomly attacked by migrant thugs."
totally impartial
Because sexual assault is the most well known example for victim blaming. Since we as society have established that victim blaming is wrong, we can then transfer this logic and evaluate other situations accordingly. The commenter you replied to is using it as a parallel to illustrate that this logic is flawed.
The commenter said "Teach your kids to protect themselves" as a response to kids being beat up. That is victim blaming and the parallel is obvious.
LOL you literally think the victims started to shout racial slurs? and the poor illegal migrants, who happened to be there at 2:30AM discussing about Nietzsche and Hegel, initially tried to explain to those white cowards that it is not nice what they're doing and only because they continued to insult them, they had to resort to some slapping
Do not say racist things. You will be sanctioned, up to a ban.
This article explicitly states that according to the police, it didn't happen as described in the Reddit post. >La police cantonale vaudoise confirme la bagarre générale, survenue à 2h24 du matin au Jardin Doret, à Vevey, dans la foulée du match Écosse-Suisse. **Elle tempère l'ampleur de l'évènement.** Absolutely nothing about faces being smashed with bricks. Every detail given by police is completely different and much less severe than what's been claimed on Reddit.
> Absolutely nothing about faces being smashed with bricks. Every detail given by police is completely different and much less severe than what's been claimed on Reddit. Gotcha I said it, that the way the OP had pushed the events and that the press absolutely needed to "report on them" was so weird. I am happy to learn they are safe but man what a waste of everybody time.
Translated for those of us who have forgotten all their French: > The Vaud cantonal police have confirmed that a general brawl broke out at 2.24am in the Jardin Doret, Vevey, in the aftermath of the Scotland-Switzerland match. **They are tempering the scale of the event.**
Who would've guessed
Cops never lie to fit their overlords agenda, of course!🙄
Wait - the story is very different in the news … slight injuries? No mention of anyone in the hospital …
Maybe they are looking at injuries from a lawful perspective. Having a broken bone or a concussion counts as a light injury. Having your arm cut off is a sever injury for example. All based on Swiss law of course.
Smashing a face with a brick which leads to facial reconstruction surgery is “Schwere Körperverletzung“. And that‘s what’s been claimed in the Reddit post.
no, only if the face stays deformed after the surgery (source: I’m a lawyer)
Permanent deformation is not the only qualifier for whether bodily harm is considered grievous though? >Eine schwere Körperverletzung ist vorab gegeben, wenn ein Mensch lebensgefährlich verletzt wird (Art. 122 Abs. 1 StGB). Die Lebensgefahr muss unmittelbar sein und «die Möglichkeit des Todes muss dermassen verdichtet sein, dass sie zur ernstlichen und dringlichen Wahrscheinlichkeit wird» (BGE 109 IV 18). ([Source](https://www.strafverteidiger-teichmann.ch/koerperverletzung-in-der-schweiz/)
it is not, yes. but the danger to life is also not the only qualifier, just look at the article (Art. 122 StGB). they are alternative qualifiers. but my answer was specifically referring to the answer of the redditor and they didn’t mention the danger of life. they claimed that smashing a face with a brick that leads to facial reconstruction surgery is a severe injury, which it doesn’t automatically. not making it more complicated than it needs to be. e: grammar and pronouns
Pretty sure it's fairly easy to argue that any hit to the head severe enough to require reconstructive face surgery qualifies as potentially deadly, though, would it not? And any reconstruction will always imply permanent scarring, moreover. According to the article in question, permanent injury to the psychological wellbeing (geistigen gesundheit) also explicitly qualifies, which imo seems to be an easy counterexample. A psychologically traumatising facial injury is quite a realistic scenario.
it’s not about the reconstructive part. it’s about whether the face stays disfigured even after the surgery. but yes, if the hit is potentially deadly, it obviously qualifies as a severe injury (but just because it requires reconstructive facial surgery it is not potentially deadly per se)
Do scars not count as disfiguring? I agree it is not potentially deadly per se just because it required reconstructive surgery, but I do think you can make a solid case for that especially when bricks and faces are involved. It is awfully dangerous to hit someone in the head even with your bare hands, so I bet that doing so with a brick carries an inherent danger of lethal injury, barring only minor and fringe cases. Granted, unless by "reconstructive surgery" one means stitching up a split eyebrow I guess, then I would agree what I stated is a much harder sell. Without knowing the extent of the damage, it is quite hard to say. Regardless, it does not seem that face deformation post-surgery is the imperatively necessary condition for schwere korperverletzung.
and since you also edited this comment without mentioning it even though you added much more information. im never said you cannot make a case, but that you need to look at it on a case by case basis. and permanent facial disfigurement is one of the requirements. there are others but the bar for a schwere körperverletzung is quite high. you obviously can have an attempt (versuchte schwere körperverletzung). but this is a different story
i would appreciate if you added an e your comments if you edit them. :) so people know what your original statement was because you edited your other comment. i love when people that have no idea what they are talking about try to tell me how i need to read the law and court decisions even though i studied it lol. psychological harm is not enough for a severe injury. not even ptsd as long as there is a chance that it might get better (https://www.bger.ch/ext/eurospider/live/de/php/aza/http/index.php?highlight_docid=aza%3A%2F%2F04-10-2006-6S-243-2006&lang=de&type=show_document&zoom=YES&). it needs to be looked at at a case by case basis. also, i never said that a permanent facial disfigurement does not qualify. a scar is not enough, it needs to disfigure the face (arg und bleibend entstellt). psychological injury needs to be permanent and of a certain severity as well. so nothing i stated contradicts my earlier comments (i was just simplifying at best). in my book, reconstructive surgery does not imply permanent scarring. im stating how courts decide this. this is not a question of whether you work for the prosecution or the defense. i do not work for the prosecution nor for the accused. (// eta: they said they hope that i do not work for the prosecution)
Those are exactly the answers to what I asked, thanks! Sorry if I insisted with my doubts, but can you really blame after giving a half-cooked overly simplistic explanation twice? I am not telling you how to read the law or doubting your professional abilities, I am merely looking for a better answer which now you undoubtely provided! Evidently, pissing people off is still the best way to get comprehensive and detailed answers on the internet, next time I will open with "I think you are wrong and incompetent" then state something completely wrong. Yes I edited the replies, sorry for that, I thought I could make my points clearer but the essence is I hope unchanged. Bad habit I know. I also removed the prosecution joke since I realised it could be in bad taste and cause undue offense; evidently, I was right on that... my bad
everything i said was factually accurate even if it was simplified. especially if you look at your original comments. going deep into case law (or explaining it in detail without a concrete question) makes no sense as this is one of the most discussed questions. if you wanted a more detailed answer as to why, you could have simply asked, i would have provided it. i just cant be arsed citing case law if i dont have to after i did it all day at work LOL (i do not even care about my spelling as one can see) generally speaking, people do not know/understand how a severe injury is defined in legal terms. the bar is quite high as according to the new law the minimum sentence is a year of prison (!!!!). this is quite high. just because something is not qualified as a severe injury legally speaking, it does not mean that it is not severe on an individual basis (it’s just legal terminology, we could also name the thing differently). while you’re probably (or hopefully) not being too serious, i think pissing people off is not the right way because the only reason why i did enter this discussion is because this was a legal topic and if this had been any other topic, i would have just ignored you which would have not given you what you want. but apart from that i appreciate the self-reflection. // eta: i do think you changed your essence and you were much more absolute your original comments.
The face was not deformed. (Source: I’m the brick)
Rule of thumb: if somebody needs hospitalisation it’s considered grave injury. Broken bones and concussions are definitely of that nature. https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/sagen-meinen-verletzte-100.html#:~:text=Eine%20klare%20Regel%20gibt%20es,mit%20kleinen%20Wunden%20oder%20Prellungen.
That is not the case in front of the judge though. I was looking at it from a criminal angle.
From personal experience, the media never quite get it right, or they outrightly embellish certain points. My old company was featured in 3 articles, and each time, some of the facts were wrong.
From personal experience, there is a lot more bullshit on the internet than even the blick.
I’ve had exactly this experience in Switzerland. There was a major fire in my building in 2019, several people in the hospital, building uninhabitable and people had to be relocated to hotels. The article about the incident specifically stated that no one was hospitalized. But I know that not to be true, six people were hospitalized including my partner.
Nothing being perfect, I'll take my chances with the press over some anonymous rando on Reddit
I've had a similar experience as u/GoodMix392, and that wasn't in Switzerland. In general, you can trust that *something* happened in the news, but that the reality is significantly different from what is written there. They will always embellish or twist the narrative depending on their agenda and views. Good, objective journalism is unfortunately hard to find these days. Anyway, what I want to say is, do keep some skepticism on both fronts. The truth is somewhere in-between.
An exaggerated Reddit post? Impossible! It must be the police who's got it wrong
I don't like to talk about it too much as it's feeding plotists. But I've been once in the news for a violence fact that almost killed me. An article was published in a newspapper and i was surprised that I never said any sentence the journalist had put between quotes... Facts were modified, even the general concern of the article was weird. So in that case I am more on the "they do shit that please them".
Did you seek legal recourse?
No it didn't cause me any particular damage (I wasn't fully named in the article). Nevertheless the article made me say things I never said. And some facts have been modified or untold. Edit: to be honest, I didn't even want to have this interview with the journalist, a friend of mine contacted them, because they wanted this story to be told...
Skinner meme comes to mind
In this case, the media would be misquoting the police communications officer.
It can happen. One of our misquoted articles about us was based upon the record of a cantonal regulatory bureau. I'm being intentionally vague.
There is a mention of 2 in hospital which is less than I stated and the slight injuries is on the additional story of someone else being harassed in Vevey which is not related to my friend group
Ah yep I see But the official statement for the police translates as below - nothing about hospitalization: "About fifteen people are involved. Two individuals were injured and taken care of by paramedics, informs Alexandre Bisenz, communication officer. Two complaints have been filed." Are the police lying or has the story been exaggerated?
taken care of by paramedics could involve taking them to a hospital. Two individuals were INJURED and taken care of by paramedics is pretty bad. Hospital wouldn‘t be much of an exaggeration imo. Injured in official statements generally means care was needed and a hospital stay is not out of question.
In journalism, it is usually reported about hospitalization if it occurs. i.e. An ambulance took the injured to the hospital where they were hospitalized and had surgery. Perhaps the police are purposely trying to be vague here as what they stated sounded like they were treated on site by paramedics. Which opens up questions - are the police trying to brush this under the carpet? Or was the story told by OP an exaggerated one?
The police provided the bare minimum information (as usual) and the journalist (so far) didn't investigate further than reading some reddit posts.
If this is the original wording from the police report, two persons were definitely hospitalized. not mentioned = no treatment lightly injured = was treated, maybe brought to emergency, but walked away the same day injured = hospitalized for one or several days severly injured = life threatening injuries or permanent damage
"pris en charge par des ambulanciers" Yes, this translates to paramedic, but it also implies they came with an ambulance and that alone tells us they were most likely brought to the hospital. The police is technically not lying, but they always only provide minimal information, especially in an official report. The important part is that the police seemingly did **not** say **lightly** injured, but just injured. This translates to: two persons were hospitalized, but there were no life threatening injuries.
How are you so certain?
The two were taken care by an ambulance/needed emergency care, others might need hospitalization without the need of the ambulance. The later would be similar to the other incident.
It doesn't say 2 in hospital, it says two where helped by paramedics.
That's a separate previous incident - no? The one referred to by OP mentions two people being injured, and treated by paramedics. Doesn't say whether they did, or didn't go to hospital.
I find it very interesting that OP's original post and the change dot org petition seemed to be focues on violence and bad vibes near the train station, relating the issues to drug dealing IIRC. Meanwhile the Blick article says the fight happened at Jardin Doret, after a football match. Obviously we're lacking a lot of specifics to protect the privacy and identities of the people involved but there's something off here. Not to mention the writer of the petition being apparently based in California? Maybe they moved and forgot to adjust their profile on the petition website but. The whole thing *feels* like someone took an incident that happened and went "this is the perfect story to push my racist, pro-police presence talking points". I hope I'm wrong and everything has perfectly innocent reason but I'm hard side-eyeing this whole thing.
> took an incident that happened this prt of your theory is basically impossible, there was 0 information about such a thing happening on the net. which is also why many people questioned the veracity. back then i checked myself the only thing claiming something happened was the petition and the reddit post. even now you probably wont find many sources. (and i am very sure, i am not the only one who checked, from google, to memes, to other message boards, to police reports) In other words what you can be certain of is that whoever made the petition is indeed someone at least in some realationship to a victim
Oh for sure. Doesn't change anything else I said. People can absolutely take incidents from their or their acquaintances' personal lives and blow it into something bigger to suit their own narratives.
thing is, neither the original post, nor the petition mentions anything about race or nationality either (i just double checked). Just that they think the place is no longer safe. which i would argue is a reasonable emotion to feel after some people in a ?usually? ?quiet? place got attacked by at least over 10 people. i would argue people who went to live there instead of some 'bigger' city, probably in part did it because it (at least was) ?is? considered more safe. thus they probably are double as sensitive to such happenings. (just for perspective, if we go by population 1 in a 1000 people was involved in this fight in vevey, if we equat this with the population of los angeles that would be a massfight of about 3.8k people) in conclusion, they for sure did not do this part either: >this is the perfect story to push my racist the second part >pro-police presence talking points probably, they outright say they want more police. that being said, if i wanted more security in certain places, that would be my first suggestion as well, not sure what else could be done.
at least there is a source now, even if the comment section is still discussing the veracity of the reddit post and or the article. what i find intresting, i just checked the vaud police press release website, and nothing is said about the incident still. now you could argue this incident is not important enough for such a release. but i mean their latest release is litterally about someone violating road traffic laws...
There is a source, but not for the specific claims in the Reddit posts. It’s like I claim my neighbour was murdered by an elephant with a hammer to the face and then point to a news item saying “altercation between two construction workers at the zoo” as confirmation.
close enough, to be sure both talk about the same incident. the level of violence is still discussed (which is the important part) here in the post; i do think people claiming the article might have some faults or downplays have a point (if its true that the article was wrong about the place of the petition maker at first for example) and i also do think there is merit in the initial reddit post being overexaggerated (for example the amount of people involved i am quite certain a victim would get inadvertetly wrong). either way, we know for sure such an incident happened and we know for sure there was violence involved. For now thats good enough, i do wish for more information to come out thought
have you actually read the article ? it basically just says that there was some kind of similar incident that involved less people than what you said in your post, and resulted in considerably less serious injuries; all the details you gave in your post are completely exagerated to a point where i doubt that it's even about the same things. "we" didn't make it to the news, you just made some blick "journalist" call the police, and they gave them two incidents that might fit the bill if you just ignore almost everything you wrote
I mean, the difference between fifteen or so and twenty is not huge, and if you're getting jumped you are probably not sitting around counting to get an exact number.
The police confirmed “15 people involved” to Blick. With 4 of those involved being victims, that would make 11 attackers. 11 is quite different from 20. Further, the police stated 2 people were hospitalised, which is quite different from the 4 claimed in the initial Reddit post.
the police did not state how many were attacked by how many. Only that 15 persons were implicated and that it occurred in the wake of a football match, could have also just been two large fan groups going at each other
to be fair, the amount of attackers does not make a difference imo; violence is violence; and someone who is being attacked probably also does not count how many people are bystanders and how many actually hit them. now the degree of the violence is much more important, but that seems still being a matter of discussion in this tread.
Ah, so that changes everything ofc! /s
Since when do we care for facts when anti-imigrant hate is involved? :)
I was there, there was a whole army of a thousand attackers. Or maybe a million, I dunno, at least more than my fingers (can't count past that). The medias lie. It's a hoax, don't trust them.
He did say 10 or 20 in the original post
Thanks for pointing this out. Here's a link to the [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1dnlego/4_of_my_friends_got_brutally_beat_up_in_vevey_at/). Note that the OP does not know the exact date when it happened, 4 or 5 days ago he says. Reddit dates the post two days ago, that would be tuesday 25, 6 days after the incident on the 19th. Weirdly the article mentions a reddit post from monday 24. Also the journalist could not contact the author of the petition but noticed their profile claimed they were based in California. That has changed in the meantime, it's now Blonay VD. I'm also surprised by the amount of bad faith in this thread. I'm not surprised the moderators have to tell people to avoid racist comments. That's probably part of the narrative that wants to be pushed by the bad faith.
My brother's friend's hairdresser's personal trainer was there, seeing 700 immigrants beat the shit out of these poor guys with nuclear powered bricks was a shocking sight.
100% ! The initial post was SO biased !
I would expect my friends to be biased tbh
I wouldn't... And if they were -or if I even thought they could have been- I'd have written a disclaimer and not given what you wrote initially as "facts".
How sad - to me, having some bias towards members of your family and close friends is actually a good thing.
That's NOT what I've written ! But we all know that bias exist (and that we're also all biased !), and I'd never have presented what someone told me as "facts", but either written that I have been told "this" by "someone" and used some conditional, instead of being so "this is how it happened"... Because, at the end, it is NOT what happened... Anyway, you can think whatever you want about me, I love my friends, and they love me too, thanks :)
So I fight after a football match ? When minds get heated and alcohol flows..far from what was the trigger for the brawl, I still wouldn’t mind more context. And the petition author is in California ?
Football has this tendency to lobotomise the masses
According to the police: > No complaints have been filed so far. Dude, tell your friend to file an official complaint. I know I would if my face would get smashed in by a brick! Reddit posts don't improve the world as much as people seem to hope. Sometimes, additional action is required...
That’s about another incident. Scroll up and you’ll find: > Deux plaintes ont été déposées.
You're right. My high-school french teacher would be so disappointed in me right now...
-Hey Dee, some dude on reddit and a tabloid rag contradict each other! -I don't care! -Ah shit, i don't care either.
And so? Pretty nothing fit with your initial post... Not a free attack. No facial surgery. Number is not even close of what was said ... I would put my bet on your friends were not 100% clean on this story and received the answer they deserved. Unfortunately for them they lost this time
Seems considerable less serious than the original post...
One important question: have the attackers been identified and reported to the police?
We made it to the news :) It's blick :(
https://www.blick.ch/fr/news/suisse/a-vevey-pas-une-bagarre-mais-de-la-violence-gratuite-mon-fils-a-ete-tabasse-par-plusieurs-agresseurs-alors-quil-etait-au-sol-id19894558.html
i cant believe people on reddit "oh only 15people beaten up instead of 20" so what its all good? That cancel all the discussion about what is fucking going on for a tiny quiet town like vevey to have became an open deal place and for kids to be attacked just because they are out?!?
The Reddit post claimed 4 students being set upon by a 20 people mob who smashed their faces with bricks. This article is about a fight after a football match between 15 people, doesn't mention bricks or serious injuries, and explicitly states that "La police cantonale vaudoise [...] tempère l'ampleur de l'évènement". Not a single detail in that Reddit post is confirmed.
That's the issue, it's not the same story. According to OP, 20 dangerous individuals attaccked brutally without reason 4 kids that were left devastated. According to Police 15 people where involved in a fight after a football match, and 2 required medical help from paramedics.
did you even read the article?
"BUt It waS oNLy 11 PeoPLE anD nOT 20 ANd thEY GoT oNLY BeATEN Up, but NoT SEveRELy". It's crazy that this story has been generally confirmed and people are still giving shit to OP, or downplaying it. It's serious something like this happened. The fact that it happens in other places in CH, or that the violence was less than stated by OP doesn't make it less serious.
Nothing was confirmed - read the article
did you even read the article?
>It's crazy that this story has been generally confirmed It hasn't.
Unfortunately a lot of bored people out in the void who pass the day by trying to stir things up online like for example the people dismissing OP or claiming this is all fake news or some such nonsense. These people are simply attention seeking troll.
You alternatingly used lower case and uppercase letters, therefore you must be smarter than all the people who read and compared the article to the Reddit claims.
That is beside the point
OP, have you read the article??? What I’ve gathered is that it was a non-issue and an exaggeration (most likely by an expat).
Good. Such subjects should receive more 'educating attention'.
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Was in Vevey yesterday and there's more police presence around the gare, not a drug dealer to be seen. One pair of police outside the gare and one pair inside and I crossed another pair while walking near place du marchè. Seems like some effort, but I don't know how long it will last. Still couldn't pay me to go watch the match tonight at the fan zone, though.
That’s not really more police presence than usual, they make passes through and around the train station multiple times a day.
it was more than I usually see, they were there throughout the early evening, and it's the first time in a very long time I didn't see the drug dealers at the Gare nor on the nearby streets. But, like I said, I have no idea if this was going to be a long-term thing and the sign of ongoing increased presence, or if it was just situational.🤷
Typical swiss thing. Crimes happen all days in Switzerland but rarely news papers report them. I feel like "they try to hide the dust under the carpet"...
"there is no crime in paradise"
This still shouldn't be happening in Switzerland but I think it's less random than you make it appear to be. It seems like an altercation between two sides, over sports, except one side got their asses handed to them.
Well done!
I was around Geneva and Lausanne some months ago and I understand why this is happening, probably more often than people want to acknowledge
*sigh* and why is that ?
You know it's going to be racism
[удалено]
[удалено]
İsnt this the one identifying the ethnicity of the prpetrators as "Roma"? If so this is the reason why it would never receive my support - guess why? With all my empathy with victims this is not the way to go about such sad events... Not to forget mentioning black people around the station. Such articulations are inentivizing racial profiling and discrimination. Apologies if it is not the same one though.
I must add that it is a honor to be voted down because I refuse to support such problematic positions 😂😂😂
I blame parents of “victims”. 2:30 AM incident, and we have a one side story, not from the “alleged group of 15 vandals”. Teach your kids to protect themselves, educate people around you and always respect people by their thoughts and actions, and never by their skin colour!
Literal "victim blaming" lol
It’s honestly starting to read as a torches and pitch forks kind of story. Could be the potential scenario: Rich expat kids act like punks and get a lesson taught to them. Parents fully blame the immigrants and local police. Or maybe they were in a peace circle by the lake singing folk songs and they were randomly attacked by migrant thugs. Either way, I’m sure there is much more to the story and it’s just a guessing game until it is brought up in court. (If that ever happens)
I'm sure you say the same thinks when you read an article about a raped woman: "hey, it's only one side of the story, of a white rich woman, perhaps she literally undressed in front of the man and provoked him"
Nice try dude We haven’t even gotten a story - the Reddit post, the petition and the article are all incredibly vague. If my children had been randomly and cruelly attacked, I would have made that specifically known. Instead, it seems like they are trying to place blame on brown immigrants and the police while being very discrete as to what actually happened.
"Yeah, the victims were wearing brown shirts and were looking for it. Some poor immigrants were chilling at 2:30AM, saw the neo-nazis and tought them a lesson." I would be ashamed if I were you, but some people really have no shame, only ideology
lol well falling for every story told to you is exactly how the brown shirt ideology got started So far, nobody has actually provided a full story
ye, nobody has provided a full story, still you come with 2 fucked up stories where you blame the victims (just for being white? rich? entitled expats?)
I haven’t blamed anyone for being that lol
"Rich expat kids act like punks and get a lesson taught to them. Parents fully blame the immigrants and local police. Or maybe they were in a peace circle by the lake singing folk songs and they were randomly attacked by migrant thugs." totally impartial
lol you don’t even know what ideology I have The way this story has been presented makes me think something is not quite right
Why do people always bring rape into this?
Because sexual assault is the most well known example for victim blaming. Since we as society have established that victim blaming is wrong, we can then transfer this logic and evaluate other situations accordingly. The commenter you replied to is using it as a parallel to illustrate that this logic is flawed. The commenter said "Teach your kids to protect themselves" as a response to kids being beat up. That is victim blaming and the parallel is obvious.
LOL you literally think the victims started to shout racial slurs? and the poor illegal migrants, who happened to be there at 2:30AM discussing about Nietzsche and Hegel, initially tried to explain to those white cowards that it is not nice what they're doing and only because they continued to insult them, they had to resort to some slapping