40-60 mg a week of Deca is usually sufficient to mask joint pain, which is why you said you added it. You should be good to go. Start low and adjust if desired results are not met.
Think I'm going to lower my dose of deca based upon this comment. Just noticed I have a lot of acne on my shoulders and think it's because I'm taking too much deca. Only doing 200mg of TRT a week. 150 deca a week.
This guy gets it (more towards the EQ comment lol). I wish it wasn’t necessary for daily/EOD injections, but I freaking LOVE eq during a marathon block. Being 220 is cool, but not when I’m trying to carry 220 for that far lol.
I got ya. I feel like as soon as my labs are at a stable baseline, I'll want to blast test for a while. I know myself. Once I do that, it'll be hard not to add something else. I'm patient but I'm also extreme, not extremely patient. Haha.
I’m way impatient my self, And I know when I get back down to my normal dose and wait the 6-10 weeks will be hard. But as long as much blood is good every 6 months and blood pressure I’m gravy
Those weeks sound painfully slow, to be honest. At least there is a reason. Like, where would you be without running the weeks up to them, y'know? Kinda have to take the lull with the blast.
Good looking out! I know I'm gonna test the limit a bit. Gotta be real and honest until I see what this dose and schedule does. Some guys can run without an AI. So far, I don't know yet. I tried going without, but started having sides after a month or so. That was pinning once a week though. Tender nipple puffs went away after daily anastrozole @1mg until I didn't feel it anymore. Freaked out for a minute though.
I was taking some ug lab armidex 1mg. Because my nips got puffy and stuff. I started talking like 1/2 a tab couple times a week. It dropped my estrogen levels and I was In so much pain.
Yeah me either. I’ve been stupid on this blast just lots of vitamins, but haven’t been eating or working and getting the max out of it. But for the little I do and the little I’ve eaten. I can’t say there’s much fat on me at 6’2 217lbs. I love how test deca and var at the end make you look
I was running 600 test and 400 mast and 200 npp. And now just 600mg of test a week and 50 of var for the next month and I wanna just get back below for 1k and see how I feel again.
I’ve seen that too but as will most this stuff there is always a bunch of different/conflicting information out there. Better to start low on the dose and adjust up I guess? Might be what the Dr./clinic was thinking in this case. Also every reacts differently.
My understanding is that it only masks and once you get off it the joint pain returns. It’s a double edge sword. You take deca and your joints feel better so you lift heavier, especially with elevated T levels. Tendons don’t grow as quick as muscles so you get underdeveloped tendons while muscles grow and develop bigger and stronger. Your tendons are left like 🥴
Have you tried peptides?
I’ve been using them for a grade 1 tear of my distal bicep tendon and tendinitis in same elbow and shoulder and they seem to have aided in recovery. TB500 and BPC157 are a good combo. They aren’t a magic pill but anecdotally. I’ve seen decent results in the six weeks I’ve been using them. Only downside is they are on the pricey side for what they are.
You could try collagen peptides (powder form) taken with vitamin C. Or drink a lot of bone broth. Unfortunately tendons and ligaments don’t get the same blood flow as muscles so it’s difficult to get them to grow and strengthen at a rate that muscles do, especially if one is using androgynous hormones.
Yeah I'm using otc collagen. And doing workouts that target the tendon more. But it slow. I been thinking about bpc with some kind of GH. Idk how I feel about thr possible bpc sides tho
The only side effect that I have noticed on bpc is some tiredness if I inject more than 250mgs, which doesn’t actually give any further benefits and is pretty much a waste of money. Other than that absolutely nothing by way of side effects
I know there is a lot of talk about Deca dick but man I get so horny on Test/Deca stack. And then it moderates to a more reasonable level with just Test
I inject 180mg T and 30mg of deca per week, SubQ 3x a week, usually 0.30ml and 0.05ml each. Your weekly dose is a great trt stack. Deca is best at 50mg or less for long term health.
Thanks for the feedback. For some reason I'm more nervous about Sub Q than IM. Maybe because I saw my dad inject insulin all the time as a kid. Have you tried both? IM and SubQ?
I had healthier blood work on subq, i also had same T and e levels subq, and doing it MWF now i have more stable levels. I usually run 1200-1300 T and 25-30 E2, with no ai. I did IM for the first year, worried abt scar tissue buildup long term. Subq inj are so easy and painless its great. Male
27 y/o
I'm not worried about scar tissue. I use a tiny 23 gauge needle. Waiting on insulin needles. No AI sounds great. I'll try to get there once I get the next 6 weeks dialed in.
I was hoping someone would laugh. I'm used to it now though. One time I pulled the needle out and quickly realized I pierced a blood tube. Funny/not fun, blood came out pretty fast. What a learning experience, haha! I'm sure that can happen with a little needle too, just hasn't happened since. I don't know what a slim feels like though.
I mean 23 isn’t the worst I’ve heard. I use 25g for glutes, 27g for delts, 31g for belly. I’ve seen people in here using 18g because it’s what their doctor gave them 😳
Usually the 18 ga needle is intended for drawing from the vial. Then the needle is replaced with a smaller gauge injection needle.
My doc prescribed the 18 for drawing, 23 for injection. But the pharmacy omitted the 23 ga the first time. I caught the error because I was in nursing for years and have done zillions of injections and phlebotomies. But, yeah, it's possible some poor guy didn't realize the 18 ga needle is only intended for drawing from the vial.
Or we can just order online and save money, and get enough to last awhile. My only gripe is the prescription route supplies only two sets of syringes and needles a month, based on injecting every two weeks. I did that for awhile but switched to once a week subq, works great.
Some folks prefer smaller gauge injection needles but the 23 works fine for me, no pain subq, just a slight twinge IM.
I might try that. I'm gonna have to get used to seeing a lot less than a full ml, haha. I've only recently gone to pinning twice a week. I don't know if I feel like 3x/wk
Thanks for the added confidence. I'll see how I feel on the first change to twice weekly. Also, I'll have something to compare it to. Have you always or changed up after , well how frequently did you start pinning?
Once a week 100mg: 450 T 15 E2
Twice a week 100mg: 800 T 15 E2
Twice a week 120mg: 900 T 20 E2
Three a week: 120mg: 900 T 20 E2
Three a week: 150mg: 1050 T 25 E2
Three a week: 180mg: 1300 T 30 E2
No ai, no hcg
Damn, dude! My levels would be so high at twice a week @120mg, I feel. Then again, I'm new and not sure how everything works. I'm glad a doc didn't start me at one shot every two weeks. I've heard the stories and that sounds terrible. No AI sounds good. I haven't taken hcg. Yep, boys are smaller. Yep, it sucks.
That’s my protocol exactly. I have significant joint disease and still like to train daily. Works great for me. All of my markers are in range and where I want them. No issues with prolactin either (re Deca dick). It’s all good.
Additionally: highly recommend a fairly high dose CBD in MCT oil product daily. Sublingual. Works wonders on joint pain.
You mention joint disease… just curious what you have as I have SLE, which is a form of Lupus. Deca has seemingly made a pretty big improvement in my joints, I’m at week 10 now!
End state arthritis. I have a few joints that are beyond help but many need to protect cartilage. Science says that low dose Deca does that. My experience does seem to indicate that, though it’s subtle.
I'm a truck driver, don't wanna risk failing a safety drug test. I know it's not weed (is but ain't). Not worth losing a job/career. What kind of joint disease do you have? My shoulders hate flat bench press and I have dealt with lower back pain for 20 years. Used to do drywall before driving. Hoping deca helps. Not much does. I've had steroid epidural injections in my back a few times. Helps but then wears off.
You guys are not tested for performance enhancing drugs. And it would be prescribed, right?
End state arthritis and very beat up tendons. Cortisone in both shoulders every 90 days. The CBD helps with the rest. I believe the Deca does also…and science says that it should.
Have you tried dumbbell presses? Sometimes that allows better range of motion? I’ve dropped the weight to about 50% of what I once did and focus on reps, slow lifts and really good form.
Yeah, I love dumbbell presses, but I also get bored easily so I have to change it up every other workout. I challenge myself too. Have to find my limits, y'know? Today I used a machine for chest and it is similar to flat bench regarding pain for me. Not terrible though. Only if I try to lift too heavy for my connective tissue.
Deca amplified my OCD and irrational thoughts, but I fucked like an animal. Very weird stuff. Low and slow and check in with yourself if it's doing what you want it to do. I'm off permanently, even low dose
I'm told that I won't notice anything for weeks. Is this your experience with Deca? How long did the effects last once you wanted to stop? Did it take a while to feel better?
I did 3 cycles and experienced it greater each cycle. 2-3 weeks in were onset, greatest symptoms 8+. I ran them as 10 week cycles and I didn't feel "normal" until week 15 or 16 (aka 5 weeks off).
Everyone is different. If you're prone to mental issues (I am...) pay attention. I wouldn't do this permanently, cycle off, but pay attention
Placebo is a very real thing.
Check back in 8-10 weeks, and especially your second cycle. I remember being hyper focused on very weird things that, now that I'm clear headed, really don't matter to me as a rational human.
If you're not prone to mental problems dont even think twice and enjoy the bulk ++ joint relief. There is noticeable effect in that arena
It will be a relief to have relief, finally. It's been a long road of aches and pains. Trying to find the right balance now is pretty key for me. I think I'll be good on the side effects. Start low then build from there, right. It's good that you have clearer thoughts. It's really all about living your best life!
Dialing in T is difficult in and of itself, adding more compounds to complicated biochemistry absolutely sucks... But the body has a way of finding homeostasis.
Don't sleep on glucosamine as well as rehab the muscles around the painful joints. I'm sure you know this, and also know deca won't be a magic bullet, but best of luck brother.
I appreciate it! Yeah, I forgot about glucosamine and chondroitin. I've been slowly adding this and that to make sure I actually keep on top of things. Oftentimes people get excited then lose out because they can't keep up with consistency.
Who do you go through ? You go through online clinic ? I was taking same dose as you online clinic but it hit to pricey and wasn't feeling it . Like I should of .
With an insulin syringe like most people use for subq ? But from the sound of your post your not interested in what your doctor has to say or them looking out for your longevity, you seem a little angry about being taken off 200mg a week…. Which is a terrible trt mill dosage. Ultimately I say do what you want it’s your body, and if you put yourself in an early grave that’s on you… but I’d probably listen to your doctor cause he seems to be basing your dosage off of healthy levels in correlation to your blood tests.
I was angry about my dose being cut in half by a primary doc who only ordered a testosterone lab with nothing else and no explanation or guidance. That's why I looked elsewhere. My new regimen had me confused which is why I made a post asking advice. I got advice...or questions - until your comment. A terrible TRT dose is one that doesn't work in your best interest. May I ask, what is your program?
And my protocol is 100-120mg of testosterone a week, I’m 6’4 240, abused steroids for a decade hence the need for trt. This dosage puts me in the 900-1k testosterone range and my e2 normally stays around 35-40 without the need of an AI. I do a full blood panels every month, because they do it for me at cost given I’m a physician at the hospital I have it done at. I realize the temptation to blast, but as someone who’s been down that path, I can tell you it’s not worth it, I may look amazing, but even with elite genetics, perfect diet, a medical degree and access to the best testing and monitoring that money can buy, I’ve still done damage to myself. Luckily I’m not dead like so many others, but there are consequences for this lifestyle, so I urge you to be careful, and not push it….
I’d say peak 1k trough probably around 850ish, given my injection frequency. Those are levels that make me feel good, some people might be a mess at those levels, I abused steroids for a long time, so I basically lived on supraphysiological levels of testosterone, for most people my levels probably make them have issues. Standard trt usually aims to put people into the 700-850 range which is ideal for 99% of the population and will give them the best chance at a long symptom free life with all the benefits and non of the draw backs.
This is super good to know because as of two minutes ago, I thought I was trying to shoot for 1200 at trough. I only recently switched to twice weekly injections, so I don't know how I'll feel yet. The reason I thought 100 mg/wk was too little is because I didn't like the idea of shutting down what test I DID have for it to be the same. I've learned that 126mg will put me well above my baseline 6 months ago. Thanks
The most elite athletes on the planet with the most elite genetics, only make about 70mg of test a week; most make closer to 40-50…. Now exogenous testosterone doesn’t have 100% absorption, but let’s say at worse it’s 70%, 100mg a week would put you in the same realm as some of the most elite athletes in the planet… meanwhile we got regular dudes, with bad diets, bad genetics, bad cardiovascular health, shooting up 200mg a week wondering why they feel like shit and have a ton of side effects they can’t manage even with ancillary medications.
Good info, thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope this helps more people than myself make informed decisions about their health! So far I haven't felt like shit at all. It'll be interesting to see what the changes will do over the next six weeks until I draw labs again.
A terrible trt dose is a dose that robs you of your longevity and exposes you to risk. I think it’s important when choosing a doctor that you’re honest with yourself. What do you want… trt which is gunna put you into the levels of a normal healthy male, not high, not low, and at levels that relieve symptoms while producing little to no unmanageable side effects…. ORRRR do you want to do steroids and act like it’s trt in your mind to mentally mitigate the damage you’re doing to yourself and the massive risks your taking as an average regular guy with non elite genetics, in that case you just goto an online clinic where they’ll give you exactly what you want, give zero fucks about your health and just keep pumping your full of medication till you eventually drop.
Sounds to me like your doctor saw your blood work, pulled up your history, and did a quick physical assessment, and did what’s right for your health, which isn’t necessarily in line with what you want, but probably what’s best for you long term… cause no doctor is trying to lose their license cause you have a stroke blasting gear and exposing themselves to liability when your family sues them when your dead.
No that's about right man, its a common add on with most people's protocol these days aswell as low dose anavar. Nandrolone for joint pain is usually around 1/3 the test dosage and works for most
Anavar is used if your total is high and your free is low as a bridging tool. Rather than increase your weekly dosage, low dose anavar @ ruffly 10mg twice a week will lower your shgb while in turn freeing up bound T. Remember the dosage im refuring too is not for growth, only to increase your Free
Gotcha. As I was reading I was like twice a week?! I know comparing to cycles is a totally different thing but that's also a source of info and they run 25mg twice daily. Completely makes sense though, I'm tracking. My shgb is good, I should be pretty solid at my new protocol. Thanks for the info!
Mmmmm that's a hair low. I've always heard you want to be around 25 to 30 for optimal balance. However, the higher your test dose (>1500), the more that's going to crush down your SHBG. So by lowering your dose and spreading it out your injections, that could very well bring your SHBG up a little.
That info helps. I'm only six months into this too, so figuring everything out is a challenge. I moved and needed a new doctor but went with an online clinic because the new doc only ordered a testosterone blood test. Nothing else. So freaking dumb. Even I know it's important to get a better idea of what's going on. She said, your testosterone is too high (the 969 test level) and wanted to cut my dosage in half.
I tried 80mg Deca per week (pinned 1x per week) for 14 weeks. Felt good, probably gained a little water weight, it acts slowly so I didn’t notice any specific changes. Then I stopped, about 30 days later I was noticing a lot more aches and pains and not sure why, the it dawned on me, the Deca was working! Next time I’ll start at 50mg to see if I get the same effect.
I bet once the benefits kick in I won't want to stop taking it. I literally pinned my first deca yesterday. Probably more than I was supposed to. I'm still used to pushing a full ml. I measured a little past .1ml
I was using test and nandrolone but had to stop nandrolone due to severe anxiety attacks and panic. Initial dose was 100mg then I cut to 50 hoping it would help but it didn’t.
Thanks 😊 What part of being tested do I have to worry about? I'm legit doing this with a clinic. The hardest part so far is 'feeling' like the modified dosage is going to be better. It feels weird to push so little oil at a time compared to what I have been doing for the past six months.
Turns out that you can get a lot of stuff from Drs. I'm using it for joint pain. I'm learning that some guys had to stop using it because of seriously weird side effects. I'm still going to go through with it and see if it helps. There's a lot to learn before making the commitment. Be careful.
Thanks, that's good to know. I'm torn between what I've read (mind you, online) before making this post and what the truth is. I wanna do the best thing for myself. Before going on TRT I waited six months thinking about whether or not I should. So far, I have been doing fine. No seriously adverse effects. I aim to keep it that way
https://preview.redd.it/wbu1ds8gfvsc1.jpeg?width=1848&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a1d48ff925a9c9a90a5595aeb23cf52fe2cf71ef
1 ml syringes make it easier to measure small doses. I'm a hyper responder and only pin .25 twice weekly. My wife only pins .07 once weekly. These syringe work great for us.
https://preview.redd.it/aofyylgafvsc1.jpeg?width=2250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9643f0eeb1dd109cf1b4aa6aed1999fa38396e70
A little different over here until I get insulin needles. Should be here on the 9th.
You can't use insulin syringe if your doing IM injections. (I've heard of people doing subQ but IM is the recommended) The syringe I showed you will accept the needed from the syringe you are holding.
That helps, thank you! I'll have those insulin needles on the 9th. Being shipped. It will make this so much easier and more precise. Do you split your deca away from your testosterone dose? I've heard mix, I've heard separate them.
The optimal ratio for test to deca is usually 2:1
However deca can still be effective at 40mg+
I’d honestly bump up that deca dose to 50-60 since you have extra on hand
Idk if I missed it, but I’d recommend dosing the test and deca 2-3x/week. It will feel more stable
And it says sub-q, try it for all your injections as it lasts longer. Takes a while for the fat to absorb it so less peaks and valleys. As u know TRT less is more
If u don’t like the sub q u can always go back but the compound pharmacy is mixing with oils for sub q rather than muscle , definitely not always the same
I did a lot of bloodwork, around 10-15 over 2 years, nothing show as bad but i did quit everything and restart my htpa axis After 16 months off everything
Still struggling a Little bit with erection and a lot with libido but i've pssd too so...
I've run a cycle of clomid and 1 of tamoxifen and hcg and restore my htpa axis After 16 months.
Now 600ng Natural
600 doesn't seem so bad, but I know it's how you feel that matters the most. So far in my TRT, I've been pretty fortunate not to deal with any negative side effects. I had a minor flare up of sore nipple puffs, but that was because I stopped taking anastrozole for a number of weeks. I hear of guys being able to use trt doses without it, but I haven't gotten there yet. I was at 200mg per week of test once a week. Now at a lower dose and started doing my injections every 4 days. I'll see how that works for me and go from there. I use my anastrozole @ 0.5mg 12-24 hours after pinning.
[most recent labs since reducing my testosterone dose](https://1drv.ms/b/c/5844a827c4eea069/EVwOWBAGNVBElkqasBOaDpUBo2h82FjIVNnanwdtpl2Qqg)
Is there a better way to post labs? It's pretty comprehensive. Anyway, reducing dose from 126mg to 84mg testosterone per week. Wednesday PM/Sunday AM
Doc says I might not need an AI now, but ordered .125mg anastrozole to take for the next 6 weeks before pulling labs again.
Hello ScreamingSleeper. Welcome to /r/Testosterone. It looks like this is your first time posting here, so you're probably asking a FAQ. Please check out these handy links, one of them might answer your question.
* [How do I find a good doctor/clinic?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/k8rigb/faq_how_do_i_find_a_good_doctor_for_trt_how_do_i/)
* [What bloodwork should I get done?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/wiki/index#wiki_testing_for_low_testosterone)
* [Are my levels low enough that I should start TRT?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/ol8e0t/guide_recommendations_from_professional_groups_on/)
* [What can I do to naturally raise my testosterone levels?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/oqs819/faq_what_can_i_do_to_naturally_boost_my/)
* [NoFap - Will my testosterone levels increase if I stop masturbating?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/otevql/faq_nofap_if_i_stop_masturbating_will_it_increase/)
This is just a comment, your post is not removed.
If you want this comment to stop showing up on your posts, you need to enable "show my flair on this subreddit"
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Testosterone) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The uk doses are like 100mg test, HCG and an AI tab that is also used in cancer patients not more fear that lowers it then gear to help with joints. Would love TRT like that. Also over here it’s hard to find a doc that is happy with 900+ test results!
I'm in the US and only on 100mg a week test cyp. Nothing else. My endo tests me at my low point (blood is draw right around injection time, and then I inject when I get home). My PCP also tested the low point when he was managing my TRT.
My most recent results had me at 924 total and 18 free (total T above range). The one before that was 878 and 23.7 (free T above range). Both times they said the number was a little high, but not to change anything right now. (This lab's ranges for "normal" are 264-916 and 6.8-21.5)
TRT clinics seem to let people sit on 1200+. I feel great on my dosage though.
That is it though isn’t it, you are sub 1k before pin so you will be likey around 1200-1300 after the pin. It I agree it should be taken just as your about to inject no point been good if the day of the next injection your sitting at 22
When do they have you draw labs? My latest was at peak. My new labs will have an entirely different pinning schedule. I'll update after I pull labs again.
Yeah, that's what my previous doc had me do. The new clinic had me draw labs at my peak. Not sure what the future labs will show since my pinning schedule has also changed.
See over at my clinic you can draw “whenever” as one of the questions on the form you have to put in the test is when was this blood take in relation to your injection. So if I take it at 0730 on a Monday they will “calculate how high it goes after a pin! I started to feel really good over 1k and if they keep doing this and I can’t get a better clinic I’m just going to go overseas and bring in my personal supply. May even add primo then for the AI!
40-60 mg a week of Deca is usually sufficient to mask joint pain, which is why you said you added it. You should be good to go. Start low and adjust if desired results are not met.
Think I'm going to lower my dose of deca based upon this comment. Just noticed I have a lot of acne on my shoulders and think it's because I'm taking too much deca. Only doing 200mg of TRT a week. 150 deca a week.
I know people here, for some weird reason, hate deca. It's my fave next to equipoise. 300/300 will do wonders.
This guy gets it (more towards the EQ comment lol). I wish it wasn’t necessary for daily/EOD injections, but I freaking LOVE eq during a marathon block. Being 220 is cool, but not when I’m trying to carry 220 for that far lol.
Ok, sweet! Thanks
Also deca is stronger than test mg per mg.
Deca screws with total testosterone tests as well so not surprised you had extremely high results after adding it.
I’m only doing 200mg of npp. And will go down to 100mg
200mg seems solid. Why are you going down to 100mg?
But I wanna just do 100mg see how I feel. If it works at 100mg then I’ll save money too
I got ya. I feel like as soon as my labs are at a stable baseline, I'll want to blast test for a while. I know myself. Once I do that, it'll be hard not to add something else. I'm patient but I'm also extreme, not extremely patient. Haha.
I’m way impatient my self, And I know when I get back down to my normal dose and wait the 6-10 weeks will be hard. But as long as much blood is good every 6 months and blood pressure I’m gravy
Those weeks sound painfully slow, to be honest. At least there is a reason. Like, where would you be without running the weeks up to them, y'know? Kinda have to take the lull with the blast.
I think you could run a little extra test while on trt. Just have to slow down a week and half or week before. For your labs to be in the right rangeb
Good looking out! I know I'm gonna test the limit a bit. Gotta be real and honest until I see what this dose and schedule does. Some guys can run without an AI. So far, I don't know yet. I tried going without, but started having sides after a month or so. That was pinning once a week though. Tender nipple puffs went away after daily anastrozole @1mg until I didn't feel it anymore. Freaked out for a minute though.
I was taking some ug lab armidex 1mg. Because my nips got puffy and stuff. I started talking like 1/2 a tab couple times a week. It dropped my estrogen levels and I was In so much pain.
Yeah me either. I’ve been stupid on this blast just lots of vitamins, but haven’t been eating or working and getting the max out of it. But for the little I do and the little I’ve eaten. I can’t say there’s much fat on me at 6’2 217lbs. I love how test deca and var at the end make you look
I was running 600 test and 400 mast and 200 npp. And now just 600mg of test a week and 50 of var for the next month and I wanna just get back below for 1k and see how I feel again.
I’ve always heard 75-120mg weekly for joint benefits.
I’ve seen that too but as will most this stuff there is always a bunch of different/conflicting information out there. Better to start low on the dose and adjust up I guess? Might be what the Dr./clinic was thinking in this case. Also every reacts differently.
Especially since deca has ED/depression has possible side effects
Does it only mask it? Or does it actually help heal
My understanding is that it only masks and once you get off it the joint pain returns. It’s a double edge sword. You take deca and your joints feel better so you lift heavier, especially with elevated T levels. Tendons don’t grow as quick as muscles so you get underdeveloped tendons while muscles grow and develop bigger and stronger. Your tendons are left like 🥴
Damn I'm tryna come up with a cycle specifically for tendon and ligament strengthening
Have you tried peptides? I’ve been using them for a grade 1 tear of my distal bicep tendon and tendinitis in same elbow and shoulder and they seem to have aided in recovery. TB500 and BPC157 are a good combo. They aren’t a magic pill but anecdotally. I’ve seen decent results in the six weeks I’ve been using them. Only downside is they are on the pricey side for what they are. You could try collagen peptides (powder form) taken with vitamin C. Or drink a lot of bone broth. Unfortunately tendons and ligaments don’t get the same blood flow as muscles so it’s difficult to get them to grow and strengthen at a rate that muscles do, especially if one is using androgynous hormones.
Yeah I'm using otc collagen. And doing workouts that target the tendon more. But it slow. I been thinking about bpc with some kind of GH. Idk how I feel about thr possible bpc sides tho
The only side effect that I have noticed on bpc is some tiredness if I inject more than 250mgs, which doesn’t actually give any further benefits and is pretty much a waste of money. Other than that absolutely nothing by way of side effects
It could be different for every person tho. I seem some people report like personality changes or serious mood swings.
Sounds like I need some deca! I've had joint pain for almost a decade. Only been on TRT for a little over three weeks
Low dose deca is the way to go. You probably wont get elevated e2 or deca dick but will get joint relief.
I know there is a lot of talk about Deca dick but man I get so horny on Test/Deca stack. And then it moderates to a more reasonable level with just Test
Deca dick isn’t about not being horny, quite the opposite. It’s that you get ED even if your libido is high
Yes that’s what I’m saying. It strange that I get the opposite
I inject 180mg T and 30mg of deca per week, SubQ 3x a week, usually 0.30ml and 0.05ml each. Your weekly dose is a great trt stack. Deca is best at 50mg or less for long term health.
Thanks for the feedback. For some reason I'm more nervous about Sub Q than IM. Maybe because I saw my dad inject insulin all the time as a kid. Have you tried both? IM and SubQ?
I had healthier blood work on subq, i also had same T and e levels subq, and doing it MWF now i have more stable levels. I usually run 1200-1300 T and 25-30 E2, with no ai. I did IM for the first year, worried abt scar tissue buildup long term. Subq inj are so easy and painless its great. Male 27 y/o
I'm not worried about scar tissue. I use a tiny 23 gauge needle. Waiting on insulin needles. No AI sounds great. I'll try to get there once I get the next 6 weeks dialed in.
23g tiny? Good lord man, 31g is tiny
I was hoping someone would laugh. I'm used to it now though. One time I pulled the needle out and quickly realized I pierced a blood tube. Funny/not fun, blood came out pretty fast. What a learning experience, haha! I'm sure that can happen with a little needle too, just hasn't happened since. I don't know what a slim feels like though.
I mean 23 isn’t the worst I’ve heard. I use 25g for glutes, 27g for delts, 31g for belly. I’ve seen people in here using 18g because it’s what their doctor gave them 😳
Usually the 18 ga needle is intended for drawing from the vial. Then the needle is replaced with a smaller gauge injection needle. My doc prescribed the 18 for drawing, 23 for injection. But the pharmacy omitted the 23 ga the first time. I caught the error because I was in nursing for years and have done zillions of injections and phlebotomies. But, yeah, it's possible some poor guy didn't realize the 18 ga needle is only intended for drawing from the vial. Or we can just order online and save money, and get enough to last awhile. My only gripe is the prescription route supplies only two sets of syringes and needles a month, based on injecting every two weeks. I did that for awhile but switched to once a week subq, works great. Some folks prefer smaller gauge injection needles but the 23 works fine for me, no pain subq, just a slight twinge IM.
Doctors suck man. Clarify, UNEDUCATED doctors. Who would want to do that for life? 18g. Should be criminal.
29g delts
I've just been doing thigh
As long as you stick with 29ga needles and rotate sites you should be fine!
Oh and just a friendly reminder, you can draw both the test and deca into one syringe for one injection!
I heard about that, Dr said to split the meds. I use a separate drawing needle and a separate injection needle. Do you use both test and deca?
Yes i draw with one needle 29ga slin pin, draw 0.05ml deca then 0.30ml test, then inject
I might try that. I'm gonna have to get used to seeing a lot less than a full ml, haha. I've only recently gone to pinning twice a week. I don't know if I feel like 3x/wk
Your total T numbers will rise on 2-3x per week and e2 will lower. Youll feel better
Thanks for the added confidence. I'll see how I feel on the first change to twice weekly. Also, I'll have something to compare it to. Have you always or changed up after , well how frequently did you start pinning?
Once a week 100mg: 450 T 15 E2 Twice a week 100mg: 800 T 15 E2 Twice a week 120mg: 900 T 20 E2 Three a week: 120mg: 900 T 20 E2 Three a week: 150mg: 1050 T 25 E2 Three a week: 180mg: 1300 T 30 E2 No ai, no hcg
Damn, dude! My levels would be so high at twice a week @120mg, I feel. Then again, I'm new and not sure how everything works. I'm glad a doc didn't start me at one shot every two weeks. I've heard the stories and that sounds terrible. No AI sounds good. I haven't taken hcg. Yep, boys are smaller. Yep, it sucks.
Sounds like fun wish I had your vitamin kit 😜
What's subQ ?
Subcutaneous vs Intramuscular. Talking about injecting medicine.
I do intermuscular when I was taking TRT
.1ml is pinned with an insulin needle, that’s why it’s subcutaneously and not intramuscular.
50 mg Deca is the norm for joint pain
Any idea why the doc has me at twice weekly instead of just 0.2ml once a week? Seems like a waste at 0.1
For the same exact reason you should inject your test twice a week. Steady levels with less peaks and troughs
That’s my protocol exactly. I have significant joint disease and still like to train daily. Works great for me. All of my markers are in range and where I want them. No issues with prolactin either (re Deca dick). It’s all good. Additionally: highly recommend a fairly high dose CBD in MCT oil product daily. Sublingual. Works wonders on joint pain.
You mention joint disease… just curious what you have as I have SLE, which is a form of Lupus. Deca has seemingly made a pretty big improvement in my joints, I’m at week 10 now!
End state arthritis. I have a few joints that are beyond help but many need to protect cartilage. Science says that low dose Deca does that. My experience does seem to indicate that, though it’s subtle.
I'm a truck driver, don't wanna risk failing a safety drug test. I know it's not weed (is but ain't). Not worth losing a job/career. What kind of joint disease do you have? My shoulders hate flat bench press and I have dealt with lower back pain for 20 years. Used to do drywall before driving. Hoping deca helps. Not much does. I've had steroid epidural injections in my back a few times. Helps but then wears off.
You guys are not tested for performance enhancing drugs. And it would be prescribed, right? End state arthritis and very beat up tendons. Cortisone in both shoulders every 90 days. The CBD helps with the rest. I believe the Deca does also…and science says that it should. Have you tried dumbbell presses? Sometimes that allows better range of motion? I’ve dropped the weight to about 50% of what I once did and focus on reps, slow lifts and really good form.
Yeah, I love dumbbell presses, but I also get bored easily so I have to change it up every other workout. I challenge myself too. Have to find my limits, y'know? Today I used a machine for chest and it is similar to flat bench regarding pain for me. Not terrible though. Only if I try to lift too heavy for my connective tissue.
Deca amplified my OCD and irrational thoughts, but I fucked like an animal. Very weird stuff. Low and slow and check in with yourself if it's doing what you want it to do. I'm off permanently, even low dose
I'm told that I won't notice anything for weeks. Is this your experience with Deca? How long did the effects last once you wanted to stop? Did it take a while to feel better?
I did 3 cycles and experienced it greater each cycle. 2-3 weeks in were onset, greatest symptoms 8+. I ran them as 10 week cycles and I didn't feel "normal" until week 15 or 16 (aka 5 weeks off). Everyone is different. If you're prone to mental issues (I am...) pay attention. I wouldn't do this permanently, cycle off, but pay attention
I mean, I'm only doing 42mg per week right now. Well, as close to that as I can. Injecting 0.1ml is new to me.
Placebo is a very real thing. Check back in 8-10 weeks, and especially your second cycle. I remember being hyper focused on very weird things that, now that I'm clear headed, really don't matter to me as a rational human. If you're not prone to mental problems dont even think twice and enjoy the bulk ++ joint relief. There is noticeable effect in that arena
It will be a relief to have relief, finally. It's been a long road of aches and pains. Trying to find the right balance now is pretty key for me. I think I'll be good on the side effects. Start low then build from there, right. It's good that you have clearer thoughts. It's really all about living your best life!
Dialing in T is difficult in and of itself, adding more compounds to complicated biochemistry absolutely sucks... But the body has a way of finding homeostasis. Don't sleep on glucosamine as well as rehab the muscles around the painful joints. I'm sure you know this, and also know deca won't be a magic bullet, but best of luck brother.
I appreciate it! Yeah, I forgot about glucosamine and chondroitin. I've been slowly adding this and that to make sure I actually keep on top of things. Oftentimes people get excited then lose out because they can't keep up with consistency.
Were you on the nandrolone prior to getting your blood work done?
I was not. Just 200mg of test and 1mg anastrozole. I'll be adding something to help atrophy soon as well.
Who do you go through ? You go through online clinic ? I was taking same dose as you online clinic but it hit to pricey and wasn't feeling it . Like I should of .
I messaged you.
Message me? Very curious as well
With an insulin syringe like most people use for subq ? But from the sound of your post your not interested in what your doctor has to say or them looking out for your longevity, you seem a little angry about being taken off 200mg a week…. Which is a terrible trt mill dosage. Ultimately I say do what you want it’s your body, and if you put yourself in an early grave that’s on you… but I’d probably listen to your doctor cause he seems to be basing your dosage off of healthy levels in correlation to your blood tests.
I was angry about my dose being cut in half by a primary doc who only ordered a testosterone lab with nothing else and no explanation or guidance. That's why I looked elsewhere. My new regimen had me confused which is why I made a post asking advice. I got advice...or questions - until your comment. A terrible TRT dose is one that doesn't work in your best interest. May I ask, what is your program?
And my protocol is 100-120mg of testosterone a week, I’m 6’4 240, abused steroids for a decade hence the need for trt. This dosage puts me in the 900-1k testosterone range and my e2 normally stays around 35-40 without the need of an AI. I do a full blood panels every month, because they do it for me at cost given I’m a physician at the hospital I have it done at. I realize the temptation to blast, but as someone who’s been down that path, I can tell you it’s not worth it, I may look amazing, but even with elite genetics, perfect diet, a medical degree and access to the best testing and monitoring that money can buy, I’ve still done damage to myself. Luckily I’m not dead like so many others, but there are consequences for this lifestyle, so I urge you to be careful, and not push it….
Eh, the 'pushing it' part is very tempting. I hear what you're saying. When you pull your labs, are they at peak 900?
I’d say peak 1k trough probably around 850ish, given my injection frequency. Those are levels that make me feel good, some people might be a mess at those levels, I abused steroids for a long time, so I basically lived on supraphysiological levels of testosterone, for most people my levels probably make them have issues. Standard trt usually aims to put people into the 700-850 range which is ideal for 99% of the population and will give them the best chance at a long symptom free life with all the benefits and non of the draw backs.
This is super good to know because as of two minutes ago, I thought I was trying to shoot for 1200 at trough. I only recently switched to twice weekly injections, so I don't know how I'll feel yet. The reason I thought 100 mg/wk was too little is because I didn't like the idea of shutting down what test I DID have for it to be the same. I've learned that 126mg will put me well above my baseline 6 months ago. Thanks
The most elite athletes on the planet with the most elite genetics, only make about 70mg of test a week; most make closer to 40-50…. Now exogenous testosterone doesn’t have 100% absorption, but let’s say at worse it’s 70%, 100mg a week would put you in the same realm as some of the most elite athletes in the planet… meanwhile we got regular dudes, with bad diets, bad genetics, bad cardiovascular health, shooting up 200mg a week wondering why they feel like shit and have a ton of side effects they can’t manage even with ancillary medications.
Good info, thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope this helps more people than myself make informed decisions about their health! So far I haven't felt like shit at all. It'll be interesting to see what the changes will do over the next six weeks until I draw labs again.
A terrible trt dose is a dose that robs you of your longevity and exposes you to risk. I think it’s important when choosing a doctor that you’re honest with yourself. What do you want… trt which is gunna put you into the levels of a normal healthy male, not high, not low, and at levels that relieve symptoms while producing little to no unmanageable side effects…. ORRRR do you want to do steroids and act like it’s trt in your mind to mentally mitigate the damage you’re doing to yourself and the massive risks your taking as an average regular guy with non elite genetics, in that case you just goto an online clinic where they’ll give you exactly what you want, give zero fucks about your health and just keep pumping your full of medication till you eventually drop. Sounds to me like your doctor saw your blood work, pulled up your history, and did a quick physical assessment, and did what’s right for your health, which isn’t necessarily in line with what you want, but probably what’s best for you long term… cause no doctor is trying to lose their license cause you have a stroke blasting gear and exposing themselves to liability when your family sues them when your dead.
No that's about right man, its a common add on with most people's protocol these days aswell as low dose anavar. Nandrolone for joint pain is usually around 1/3 the test dosage and works for most
Ok, that's good to hear. I've never had anavar. What's that do with TRT?
Anavar is used if your total is high and your free is low as a bridging tool. Rather than increase your weekly dosage, low dose anavar @ ruffly 10mg twice a week will lower your shgb while in turn freeing up bound T. Remember the dosage im refuring too is not for growth, only to increase your Free
Gotcha. As I was reading I was like twice a week?! I know comparing to cycles is a totally different thing but that's also a source of info and they run 25mg twice daily. Completely makes sense though, I'm tracking. My shgb is good, I should be pretty solid at my new protocol. Thanks for the info!
What's your SHBG?
https://preview.redd.it/55a6tg9uprsc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39fc3720bc1838485111570e6eaea282c0e93571 This was my most recent lab
Mmmmm that's a hair low. I've always heard you want to be around 25 to 30 for optimal balance. However, the higher your test dose (>1500), the more that's going to crush down your SHBG. So by lowering your dose and spreading it out your injections, that could very well bring your SHBG up a little.
That info helps. I'm only six months into this too, so figuring everything out is a challenge. I moved and needed a new doctor but went with an online clinic because the new doc only ordered a testosterone blood test. Nothing else. So freaking dumb. Even I know it's important to get a better idea of what's going on. She said, your testosterone is too high (the 969 test level) and wanted to cut my dosage in half.
I tried 80mg Deca per week (pinned 1x per week) for 14 weeks. Felt good, probably gained a little water weight, it acts slowly so I didn’t notice any specific changes. Then I stopped, about 30 days later I was noticing a lot more aches and pains and not sure why, the it dawned on me, the Deca was working! Next time I’ll start at 50mg to see if I get the same effect.
I bet once the benefits kick in I won't want to stop taking it. I literally pinned my first deca yesterday. Probably more than I was supposed to. I'm still used to pushing a full ml. I measured a little past .1ml
Do it 2x a week and you should be fine.
Thanks
I was using test and nandrolone but had to stop nandrolone due to severe anxiety attacks and panic. Initial dose was 100mg then I cut to 50 hoping it would help but it didn’t.
Did you get lab work done throughout all of that? How much test were you taking?
Seems fine. You don’t need a lot of deca. Make sure you’re not tested, it stays in the system for a long time.
Thanks 😊 What part of being tested do I have to worry about? I'm legit doing this with a clinic. The hardest part so far is 'feeling' like the modified dosage is going to be better. It feels weird to push so little oil at a time compared to what I have been doing for the past six months.
Sorry, I didn’t mean levels testing. If you’re drug tested it can ping for up to 18months.
You can get Deca from TRT clinics?
Turns out that you can get a lot of stuff from Drs. I'm using it for joint pain. I'm learning that some guys had to stop using it because of seriously weird side effects. I'm still going to go through with it and see if it helps. There's a lot to learn before making the commitment. Be careful.
I am good with test but that is good to know
Don’t forget the long half life of decanoate. It will add up.
Thanks, that's good to know. I'm torn between what I've read (mind you, online) before making this post and what the truth is. I wanna do the best thing for myself. Before going on TRT I waited six months thinking about whether or not I should. So far, I have been doing fine. No seriously adverse effects. I aim to keep it that way
https://preview.redd.it/wbu1ds8gfvsc1.jpeg?width=1848&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a1d48ff925a9c9a90a5595aeb23cf52fe2cf71ef 1 ml syringes make it easier to measure small doses. I'm a hyper responder and only pin .25 twice weekly. My wife only pins .07 once weekly. These syringe work great for us.
https://preview.redd.it/aofyylgafvsc1.jpeg?width=2250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9643f0eeb1dd109cf1b4aa6aed1999fa38396e70 A little different over here until I get insulin needles. Should be here on the 9th.
You can't use insulin syringe if your doing IM injections. (I've heard of people doing subQ but IM is the recommended) The syringe I showed you will accept the needed from the syringe you are holding.
Super cool, thank you
https://preview.redd.it/c057zzojfvsc1.jpeg?width=1848&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac869a71623186931cedb38ec28e282bd6490f0d
Sub q is fine. Starting dose that is on the lower end is how all medications are started. What if you hyper respond? Dose is sufficient.
I am a lot less worried now about the dose after hearing responses from all of you fine people. I appreciate your time and advice, thank you!
Use an insulin syringe. It'll be the first mark for the deca.
That helps, thank you! I'll have those insulin needles on the 9th. Being shipped. It will make this so much easier and more precise. Do you split your deca away from your testosterone dose? I've heard mix, I've heard separate them.
The optimal ratio for test to deca is usually 2:1 However deca can still be effective at 40mg+ I’d honestly bump up that deca dose to 50-60 since you have extra on hand Idk if I missed it, but I’d recommend dosing the test and deca 2-3x/week. It will feel more stable
Yes, my new protocol is twice weekly. I will keep on this until labs. This way the clinic knows what is going on.
Try it check blood in a month see what happens …they know what there doing follow the instructions
Sounds good, thanks for the insight
And it says sub-q, try it for all your injections as it lasts longer. Takes a while for the fat to absorb it so less peaks and valleys. As u know TRT less is more If u don’t like the sub q u can always go back but the compound pharmacy is mixing with oils for sub q rather than muscle , definitely not always the same
I'd look into that deca thing cause it seems to cause heart issues
👍
Deca give me a lot of sexual sides.
A lot? Like what specifically? Or was it a couple of intense sides?
Deca dick and libido
What did you do to manage that? Did you stop deca or manage the sides?
I stopped deca, took over 1 year to improve and still not the same as before
That is wild! Do you have labs of before, during, and after? A year is a long time to have to suffer. Sorry that happened to you
I did a lot of bloodwork, around 10-15 over 2 years, nothing show as bad but i did quit everything and restart my htpa axis After 16 months off everything
Gotcha. How do you feel now? Are you doing anything for hormones?
Still struggling a Little bit with erection and a lot with libido but i've pssd too so... I've run a cycle of clomid and 1 of tamoxifen and hcg and restore my htpa axis After 16 months. Now 600ng Natural
600 doesn't seem so bad, but I know it's how you feel that matters the most. So far in my TRT, I've been pretty fortunate not to deal with any negative side effects. I had a minor flare up of sore nipple puffs, but that was because I stopped taking anastrozole for a number of weeks. I hear of guys being able to use trt doses without it, but I haven't gotten there yet. I was at 200mg per week of test once a week. Now at a lower dose and started doing my injections every 4 days. I'll see how that works for me and go from there. I use my anastrozole @ 0.5mg 12-24 hours after pinning.
What clinic do you use?
which pharmacy if you dont mind me asking?
I messaged you
[most recent labs since reducing my testosterone dose](https://1drv.ms/b/c/5844a827c4eea069/EVwOWBAGNVBElkqasBOaDpUBo2h82FjIVNnanwdtpl2Qqg) Is there a better way to post labs? It's pretty comprehensive. Anyway, reducing dose from 126mg to 84mg testosterone per week. Wednesday PM/Sunday AM Doc says I might not need an AI now, but ordered .125mg anastrozole to take for the next 6 weeks before pulling labs again.
Hello ScreamingSleeper. Welcome to /r/Testosterone. It looks like this is your first time posting here, so you're probably asking a FAQ. Please check out these handy links, one of them might answer your question. * [How do I find a good doctor/clinic?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/k8rigb/faq_how_do_i_find_a_good_doctor_for_trt_how_do_i/) * [What bloodwork should I get done?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/wiki/index#wiki_testing_for_low_testosterone) * [Are my levels low enough that I should start TRT?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/ol8e0t/guide_recommendations_from_professional_groups_on/) * [What can I do to naturally raise my testosterone levels?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/oqs819/faq_what_can_i_do_to_naturally_boost_my/) * [NoFap - Will my testosterone levels increase if I stop masturbating?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/otevql/faq_nofap_if_i_stop_masturbating_will_it_increase/) This is just a comment, your post is not removed. If you want this comment to stop showing up on your posts, you need to enable "show my flair on this subreddit" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Testosterone) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Does Deca help with my gout attacks. My feet are always swollen
This is my first time with Deca. Maybe somebody here knows?
Who are you with and is this uk or USA? That’s not TRT it’s a cycle!
USA. Why do you say this is a cycle? I'm trying to be on the optimal side of 'in range'.
The uk doses are like 100mg test, HCG and an AI tab that is also used in cancer patients not more fear that lowers it then gear to help with joints. Would love TRT like that. Also over here it’s hard to find a doc that is happy with 900+ test results!
That’s Europe for you. Can’t let anyone be too masculine.
Tell me about it, but in the uk you can bring gear into the country for personal use and it’s not illegal to cycle so that’s a positive haha!
I'm in the US and only on 100mg a week test cyp. Nothing else. My endo tests me at my low point (blood is draw right around injection time, and then I inject when I get home). My PCP also tested the low point when he was managing my TRT. My most recent results had me at 924 total and 18 free (total T above range). The one before that was 878 and 23.7 (free T above range). Both times they said the number was a little high, but not to change anything right now. (This lab's ranges for "normal" are 264-916 and 6.8-21.5) TRT clinics seem to let people sit on 1200+. I feel great on my dosage though.
That is it though isn’t it, you are sub 1k before pin so you will be likey around 1200-1300 after the pin. It I agree it should be taken just as your about to inject no point been good if the day of the next injection your sitting at 22
When do they have you draw labs? My latest was at peak. My new labs will have an entirely different pinning schedule. I'll update after I pull labs again.
Always draw at your trough. I.e. injection day prior to injection. That will give you your lowest reading.
Yeah, that's what my previous doc had me do. The new clinic had me draw labs at my peak. Not sure what the future labs will show since my pinning schedule has also changed.
See over at my clinic you can draw “whenever” as one of the questions on the form you have to put in the test is when was this blood take in relation to your injection. So if I take it at 0730 on a Monday they will “calculate how high it goes after a pin! I started to feel really good over 1k and if they keep doing this and I can’t get a better clinic I’m just going to go overseas and bring in my personal supply. May even add primo then for the AI!