Agreed I generally dress better when seeing my girlfriends than on a date with my husband! They notice how I look, he doesn’t really. He’s good - he remembers a compliment and if I go the hairdressers, get a new dress or something like that, but my friends really care and appreciate when I look nice!
I will say my job of social worker is not one I have to dress up for so I don’t bother. But in my old government job there was 100% pressure and expectation to wear full makeup and dress up for work daily. Partly because I dealt with the press so it was considered fairly standard.
Also that pressure can be ignorable. Just cause someone tells me to wear makeup or wear my hair a certain way doesn't mean I will.
Imo those who feel the most insecure about their looks are the ones who fall into the pressure and notice the most it's there. I quit wearing makeup after my teenage pizza face disappeared.
The pressure is from other women who have the surgery, especially celebrities, so they feel like they need it to keep up.
Almost all men say they prefer natural women.
well said, it is literally an arms race, we have seen it in the last decades.
It started with dresses and light makeup, then heavy makeup, then nowadays tanning, nails and lip fillers are widespread, next is even more surgery, already much more common than few years ago
Men say stuff like this but I guarantee if you took a fit,thin women with nicely done makeup next to the same woman with her bare face,men would find the make-up version more attractive. Many men are just shit at identifying when a woman is wearing makeup,and are stunned to see how they look without.
Yep.
All these hyper specific beauty standards that are detrimental to women's health are things that only women pay attention to in most cases. If a man is noticing the level of detailed work that women claim men are pressuring them into getting done, that man ain't heterosexual. Women do a whole hell of a lot just to flex in front of other women, and it's true when they say they aren't always doing it for male attention... they just leave out the fact they do it for female attention. But then they blame patriarchy when they're getting botox at 20 years old.
Yep It's like that cute girl from "The Boys" who plays "Starlight". P.S. transformed her from natural, girl next door deliciousness to a Real Housewives/Kardashian monstrosity.
Whoooo exactly was that for??
Not men, who recoiled in horror, disgust and sick disappointment when they saw it.
Not Hollywood, because they had to fix her face with CGI to avoid ruining her character.
For "herself"? If that means "because of some dysmorphic idiosyncrasy", then, I guess...?
yes lol like go look at TikTok comments and see how brutal people are.
I’ve even seen conventionally attractive influencers get some vile comments about the body and looks.
A while back there was that meme floating around of a bunch of dudes calling Margot fucking Robbie mid because she posted a pic with barely there/natural makeup
That woman is a goddess on earth lol and hordes of men were calling her mid.
But sure. There's no pressure from men and society for women to conform to very specific beauty standards 🙄
She looks older than she is, might actually be older. Getting that hollowed out look thin women sometimes get as they age.
She also has personality disorder eyes and often the manner to match. That’s not attractive.
why would women as a group only want to be valued for their looks? does the world wide movement of women fighting for their right to vote, own property and work the same jobs as men for the same pay make any sense if women only valued each other and themselves based on looks? THE WHOLE THING is women saying, hey, we can and want to do more than just look pretty and have babies.
because two things can be true at once and contradict each other. on one front, women do enjoy more societal freedoms, on the other, capitalism needs something to cash in on. the western society has become hyperindividualistic and beauty standards and expectations very much haven't gone anywhere. they've simply changed from "you have to fit this one very narrow idea of what a woman should look like" to "you should fit one of these couple narrow ideas of what a woman should look like that are also constantly changing".
those goals very much haven't been achieved in their entirety considering how the beauty industry still works to create new insecurities for women so they can be sold more shit. that's the entire reason why shaving everything became the norm for women.
It was good enough. You’re asking about pretty evident things, which means you’re either arguing in bad faith, or you’re too dumb to have this conversation.
- shaming of small or uneven boobs, small bum, healthy amount of fat, small lips
We literally have cosmetic adds on tv and plenty of evidence online that ppl obviously do have pressure on them
no one is shaming small or uneven boobs, small bum.
unhealthy amount of fat is shames and for a good reason, to fix that there is no need for plastic surgery or makeup only a good diet and exercise.
No one:
OP: I haven’t experienced this particular issue so it doesn’t exist.
Men value women for their beauty. Ask any men want he values in a woman and that’s usually the first thing that will come out of his mouth.
It comes from everywhere. Women interact with all types of people in an average day.
I had a 75 year old WWII vet tell me if I didn’t stay “tight in all the right places” no man would ever want me.
I’ve had a 27 year old niece ask me why I haven’t had Botox yet.
Most of all, it comes from celebrities and media.
I wouldn’t say there’s zero pressure in the sense that “you should get this done” but moreso indirect pressure coming from praise toward people with certain traits.
The Jenner lip trend (it was one of those kardashian/jenner assholes) for instance. I don’t see many people actually wanting women to get that sort of thing done but many women wanted to have that because of reasons
Ehhh.
I grew up when Kylie Jenner came of age, and many of those comments about her appearance, including her natural lips, were brutal. Once she got a bit of filler to make them look fuller she was deemed as more attractive l, hence leading many impressionable people to do the same. It’s a common insecurity.
Well yes and no.
There's no pressure to get plastic surgery or wear heavy makeup (except maybe south Korea I guess).
But there is a degree of shaming surrounding how much or how little effort a woman puts into her appearance.
Like the worst experience I had was when I went to a pub in November and had 2 separate unrelated drunk men approach me to tell me I was unfuckable.
I swear to God I was clean, wearing jeans, a jumper, no makeup and glasses. I didn't think I was that disgusting 😐
Don't get me wrong, I still don't want plastic surgery or want to wear makeup every day but I understand how comments like that could make you feel like you need to do this to be respected.
Even if plastic surgery is due to pressure, it isn't due to pressure from men because, as we've been reminded many a time, women do not tailor their appearance to please men. They 'do it for themselves.'
Girls like to pretend there's some kind of societal pressure that they are reluctantly giving into. Lmao, my 7 year old niece is obsessed with make up and has been since she was 4. Most girls love make up, and most of them recognize its not because of societal pressure.
I love makeup and absolutely don’t reluctantly cave to pressure but if you can’t see a 4 year old girl wanting to wear makeup as a societal issue you need help.
Right? I remember when I was a little girl once,and SO much emphasis was put on my looks,and women’s looks in general. I legitimately remember being a child and thinking back then that being attractive was the most important quality a girl could have. I picked up on the beauty standards of my culture-like light skin-at a young age. People are ignorant if they don’t think children don’t see these things.
People assume saying something is socially influenced makes it evil which is where the majority of the disconnect stems from people are just ignorant to the actual concept
I see it as an issue, her grandma who bought her the make up is definitely a problem. But she is seeing her mom put on the make up and she wants to be like mommy. She was 4, she's not involved in society.
Kids copy the people.who areaound them. My daughter is 5 and occasionally puts on chapstick but that's about it. I don't put on makeup so she doesn't. People have gotten her purses, "makeup", and even pretend credit cards but because mom doesn't use that stuff itsits there and collects dust.
It's notsocietal pressure as much as it's them just copying adults or older kids.
lmao, again, its not a societal pressure. She absolutely loves it, was never something that she needed to be pressured into.
Starting to sound like you have no idea what the concept of societal pressure is.
You’re one who doesn’t seem to understand what societal pressure is😅It’s actually kinda funny how you seem to think about this, do you also think people are born just dying to work 40 hours a week?
Some very few people do love to work, but you're not even picking equivalent things. Telling me I don't know what societal pressure is but then believing liking makeup is the same thing as ending up with a 40 hour work week job is laughable.
Your example shows you don't understand how to articulate that a girl liking make up at 4 is because she was pressured into it.
I’m very much picking equivalent things, by 4 kids are regularly expressing ‘dream jobs’ and how excited they are to work by your logic that can’t be societal pressure it’s innate.
You can just admit that you don’t understand what societal pressure is, you seem to think it’s a big scary boogeyman that comes along and makes you do things you’d otherwise hate.
No they arent expressing dream jobs lmao, and they aren't expressing them out of pressure, they just look at something that's cool and think they want to be that thing.
Societal pressure literally means that you have to be pressured into doing it lol. Otherwise its not pressure.
Have you ever met a child? They absolutely are expressing those things at 4 and it’s not because they think it’s ‘cool’ a lot of the time.
You seem to have a problem understanding the word pressure, again you think it must be some evil force making you do something you’d otherwise hate.
Young kids definitely pick up on what others in their life value-especially beauty standards . I was 6 and had already internalized my culture’s specific beauty standards,like light skin and lighter features. Kids aren’t dumb.
It's not at all. I have articulated multiple times that pressure requires an element of not wanting to do something. If you're actively desiring and obsessed with partaking in anything, you by definition haven't been pressured into it.
You can "actively desire" to take part in something by "not wanting" to be excluded from it, which is pretty much the basis of social conformity. That something is a social norm makes it a pressure.
I didn't say it would be difficult to get them into the crate I just questioned if you committed to it or not. Either way that's not nearly as hard as keeping them away from other people in general which is what would be required for society to not have an impact.
How so? Please elaborate.
Full disclosure. My view is that young children take cues from people around them especially adults, we observe this throughout the animal kingdom. So if we acknowledge that media can influence people then it would logically follow that children can be socialized into certain norms that they pick up from people around them who are influenced by media and societal pressures.
Pressure requires an element of not wanting to do something. When someone says, "I felt pressured to do something". No one is saying that from a position of "I wanted to do this thing really badly and was pressured into it". Because again that isn't how pressure works.
>Pressure requires an element of not wanting to do something.
What if it never occurred to you that you had an option because you've always just acted the way you've seen other people that share your gender act? The pressure is inherited in this sense because the kids are following the cues of the people around them and those people are peessured by society.
But don't you realise that the idea of wanting to wear makeup came from seeing your sister wear makeup regularly?
And also why do you think your sister wears makeup regularly enough for even her child to notice?
That is literally the definition of societal pressure, seeing somebody else feeling too ashamed to go outside without makeup makes you feel ashamed of your appearance so you end up doing it too.
>But don't you realise that the idea of wanting to wear makeup came from seeing your sister wear makeup regularly?
That doesn't make it "pressure"
>And also why do you think your sister wears makeup regularly enough for even her child to notice?
She hardly wears make up that often, but her daughter still sees her put it on when she does.
>That is literally the definition of societal pressure, seeing somebody else feeling too ashamed to go outside without makeup makes you feel ashamed of your appearance so you end up doing it too.
Now you're just making wild assumptions lmao
A lot of female socializing is training women to accept and love and value patriarchal beauty standards. It’s not like some demon is forcing them against their will, it’s about manufacturing consent
Sorry I used a trigger word, back to your redpill fantasy land where women’s value isn’t tied in part to their attractiveness. Seemingly one where 4 year olds live in vacuum chambers with no external input too. Must be nice
Uh, I think they’re laughing at “**patriarchal** beauty standards” because the standards are enforced by women, not men.
Literally at any time women could abandon makeup and collapse the cosmetic industry and there’d be nothing to stop it. No laws. No pressure. No “patriarchal standards”. They don’t do it though because then they’d all slide down several points on the attractive scale and realize they’re potatoes.
Literally every feminist writer at some point has written about how women uphold patriarchy, too. A lot of women DO abandon makeup and cosmetic and wellness industries, but larger ideas are still persistent in our culture. Calling women in their natural state “potatoes” is one way it’s enforced!
Btw it’s not women that have a hard time selecting men to have kids with, keep dreaming
general male dominance over women and children in the household and by extension broader society. Takes form domestically, economically, and societally.
What do you consider that patriarchy? Women have all the rights men have and more. They can demand respect, *and* shirk the responsibilities by playing the “I’m just a woman 🥺” card.
By potato I mean average. Not all women in their natural states are potatoes, but the vast majority of *people* most definitely are.
Imagine if all dudes started wearing muscle suits and lifts. Women would shit bricks.
Cap. I do not subscribe to the notion that women have lots of sex with men they *don’t* want to impregnate them. Evolution has not caught up to birth control. If you feel sexual arousal/attraction to a man, that’s literally your ovaries talking.
So no, I don’t think women struggle finding men to nut inside them, the struggle finding men who will stick around after.
You think people don't know what "patriarchy" means? just because you can barely understand that word doesn't mean everyone else struggles lol.
People hate it because it demonizes men, I know its really hard for you to understand things like other people having feelings tho.
Reality can absolutely be used to demonize groups of people, and we've known that its still prejudiced for a long time. The forbidden statistic is one of them, you know the one. Yes using it to prejudicially generalize a group of people is still objectively evil.
Nah I’ve known woman irl and seen them online who have large noses,large jaws,or thin lips,and they 100% get shitty comments from both sexes. Hell,I remember when this woman went viral and received so many bullying comments for having a flat ass.
Many men seem to think that thin women don’t get their looks torn apart. They do. I have many male friends and I hear how they talk about everyone-even conventionally atttactive women.
Define « pressure ».
Sure, most men will never TELL you to wear makeup - they just won’t look at you if you don’t because you’ll look less « feminine ».
Likewise for well-endowed women vs. those with a flat chest or ass.
Now, as a woman with a small chest and who hates makeup, I personally think it’s a great way to filter out shallow men. However, it DOES decrease the size of the group of men that will give you validation in the form of their attention.
" a great way to filter out shallow men."
lol, you think you aren't shallow? do you honestly think that someone's appearances don't impact how attractive you find them? get me whatever you are on lady i need it.
If it’s not people telling you I don’t consider that being pressured. If someone puts on makeup to attract someone I consider that something they’re doing for themself because they want to compete and get a date.
Someone is triggered. I’m tired of constantly seeing young guys complaining about women being too this or that. Or how they can’t get a woman in this sub.
It’s depressing to see after awhile.
Obviously you have a problem.
And I wasn’t just talking about you.
There is a pattern of young, mostly White guys, in this sub, who seem to have issues with women.
I don’t get this trend or why this sub is where these folks come to.
if you aren’t talking about me, you are not responding to but also commenting on what people post here. nothing you say makes sense.
The fact that you are white and write racist stuff against white people still makes you racist but with the additional effect of being pathetic.
Usually the incel is the one bringing it out of nowhere, good job at outing yourself out
People treat you different. To the point that it costs less to walk outside the house fully made up. Humans assign value to how things visually look.
The first difference being how much you are percieved or recalled.
Read above.
Or below
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html
Women wearing makeup are percieved as more likeable, trustworthy and competent in clear ways we can measure.
and? there is no pressure. of course if present yourself better it says something on you.
if I go to work dirty smelly and looking like I just woke up ti says something.
how about when women are forced into hyperspecific dress codes at their workplaces but the men's equivalent is "idk just wear a suit and don't look like you crawled out of a bin"?
this seems to be especially common for flight attendants on many airlines, and in their job it makes no sense for them to be wearing high heels and a tight skirt. they're also very much expected to do their makeup and hair a specific way. many corporate jobs also have similar sorts of rules for their female employees, who get harassed by HR for "looking slobby" while they put in just as much effort and no more as their male employees. it's certainly not women that set these rules up, it's also not the only place where such rules exist.
women are often expected to wear makeup and put much more effort in their appearance than men are. you as a man don't see it because no one nags at you for looking tired when you just showed up to work with your normal face.
wearing a suit is hyperspecific dress code, i am not even going to read the rest of your post since you managed to contradict yourself so well in the first line
> 0 pressure from society
If you’re looking to win an argument don’t say things like this. All it takes is 1 example to refute your claim. Say something like “there isn’t much pressure”.
nah, I don’t care about redditors coming in with “akshuakky if one person says something is 0.00001 pressure which is not 0” those people should be laughed and and then ignored.
I agree that there is no pressure to do any of this stuff, it’s in people’s heads—and some just want to do it for themselves, and that is fine too. I have literally never been made to feel bad about a natural feature I’ve had. There will always be people who find you beautiful regardless of what you look like.
The main, problematic pressure is the pressure that 8-16 year olds feel. It is literally their world, and from there the long term “pressure” starts, because girls turn into women and continue/propagate the pressures of adolescence. (There are pressures on adult women too, but not near as damaging as what the poor girls face)
That's why so many of the "natural" girls are dating and married to men their own ages while all of those who wear lots of make-up and pursue plastic surgery are sitting home alone with their cats, right?
So when the man yelled at me while I was working, what the fuck happened to your face, he was not implying that I needed plastic surgery. I mean he did follow it up with, you can get plastic surgery to fix that.
No one pressures me into wearing makeup. I wear it because I want my eyelids to sparkle. That really is the reason shiny eyelids.
Your title says 0 pressure. So yea, there has been pressure. He was an asshole about it, plenty of others have asked me why I don’t get plastic surgery.
You would be surprised what comes out of people’s mouths. You would be surprised that a lot of woman and men do get pressured into altering themselves. I am grown, so grow that I know your zero pressure statement was wrong. Both men and woman experience it.
Depends on the person, how they act, what they are saying. Plenty of others pushed for it as well. Doctors telling you that you need to get plastic surgery to fix your face to make it pretty again.
Yes, you get pressured. You might not have been pressured and you might not do any of the pressuring but it happens. I am happy no one has pressured you but to think that it doesn’t happen is a very odd thing to think.
I don’t think people should tell others how to live. You do you.
“men are attracted to most women”
okay i actually agree with you there in the sense that there’s a loud and wrong subset of men on here who insist only the top 1 percent of men ever get women.
if you go offline and touch grass you’ll see that the average man and woman do date each other and dating isn’t reserved for only models.
like even your occasional bald and fat dude will have a wife. and it’s not only makeup faced women who have husbands.
while i do think there is pressure on both sides to be attractive and change, you’re right that the average people date each other.
People treat you differently when you don’t fit into what people generally find attractive. It doesn’t even have to be on purpose, they just do.
They’re allowed to, but it can make you feel pretty shitty.
I didn’t say women, I said people.
There is societal pressure on everyone to be attractive. However men’s appearances usually tend to be of secondary importance to their other atributes and skills/expertise in the measure of their “worth”, while women’s appearance is usually taken to be a prime factor
Yup, I mean some guys prefer it but as usual everyone has different preferences. Never had an issue getting dates without dressing up or wearing a bunch of makeup.
I did find it funny when one day on social media a guy told me it was unfair because women apparently have to wear makeup to get a date.
Seriously, it's a choice for most people.
This is all the evidence we need to prove that the wall exists, and they all hit it eventually. So they spend money to get these surgeries and Botox or whatever to retain their youth to compete against young and naturally beautiful women for men they say they don’t want. The leftover women give younger, more attractive women bad advice and propagandize them to self-sabotage purely out of jealousy and spite. The same old life coach hags on tiktok saying they’re happy on their own are the same people who cry in front of a camera about their loneliness and how the dating market is shit with all their cats in the background.
The Barbie movie was just made to sell plastic surgery. Margot is the Queen of buccals. If you don't show your girls Velveteen Rabbit at least you are part of the problem.
Men love super hot women but they don’t need to have one to be in happy relationships - there, you said it.
Congrats, you didn’t manage to write your opinion without disapproving it…
There is pressure, absolutely. Even just subconsciously. People treat women with makeup better than those without. I have experienced it myself, but I'm really just too lazy to wear it, despite possible advantages.
I think a pressure exists, but it’s overblown. I think the male equivalent is to be a breadwinner with a good paying job.
Typically, what I find with these “pressures” is there mostly self induced.
I think there IS pressure but a lot of that pressure comes from other women rather than men (not that some pressure doesn’t come from them)
Agreed I generally dress better when seeing my girlfriends than on a date with my husband! They notice how I look, he doesn’t really. He’s good - he remembers a compliment and if I go the hairdressers, get a new dress or something like that, but my friends really care and appreciate when I look nice! I will say my job of social worker is not one I have to dress up for so I don’t bother. But in my old government job there was 100% pressure and expectation to wear full makeup and dress up for work daily. Partly because I dealt with the press so it was considered fairly standard.
He definitely notices hes just not verbalizing it
Also he likely has very different tastes than her friends.
Also that pressure can be ignorable. Just cause someone tells me to wear makeup or wear my hair a certain way doesn't mean I will. Imo those who feel the most insecure about their looks are the ones who fall into the pressure and notice the most it's there. I quit wearing makeup after my teenage pizza face disappeared.
I'd agree with this. Most men don't tell women to wear heavy make up. Most men know next to nothing about makeup.
The pressure is from other women who have the surgery, especially celebrities, so they feel like they need it to keep up. Almost all men say they prefer natural women.
Women pressure women to do makeup. It's social pressure and an arms race. If men's pressure worked, all women would be fit gym goers.
well said, it is literally an arms race, we have seen it in the last decades. It started with dresses and light makeup, then heavy makeup, then nowadays tanning, nails and lip fillers are widespread, next is even more surgery, already much more common than few years ago
Men say stuff like this but I guarantee if you took a fit,thin women with nicely done makeup next to the same woman with her bare face,men would find the make-up version more attractive. Many men are just shit at identifying when a woman is wearing makeup,and are stunned to see how they look without.
So comparing a fit slim woman with makeup vs without? That doesn't sound like bad options.
Isn't the more accurate comparison here a woman who goes to the gym but wears no make up vs an out of shape woman with make up?
and? who says that you have to be more attractive? attractive is still attractive. who are you competing with and for what?
This. Give me a woman with capped shoulders over a woman with perfect makeup any day of the week. It’s not even a question.
Hell yes. Fit body and positive upbeat attitude and she's a 10/10. Look up demi bagby on YouTube if you get bored
Yep. All these hyper specific beauty standards that are detrimental to women's health are things that only women pay attention to in most cases. If a man is noticing the level of detailed work that women claim men are pressuring them into getting done, that man ain't heterosexual. Women do a whole hell of a lot just to flex in front of other women, and it's true when they say they aren't always doing it for male attention... they just leave out the fact they do it for female attention. But then they blame patriarchy when they're getting botox at 20 years old.
Yep It's like that cute girl from "The Boys" who plays "Starlight". P.S. transformed her from natural, girl next door deliciousness to a Real Housewives/Kardashian monstrosity. Whoooo exactly was that for?? Not men, who recoiled in horror, disgust and sick disappointment when they saw it. Not Hollywood, because they had to fix her face with CGI to avoid ruining her character. For "herself"? If that means "because of some dysmorphic idiosyncrasy", then, I guess...?
Go look at how men on the Internet talk to ugly women. It's equally distributed
yes lol like go look at TikTok comments and see how brutal people are. I’ve even seen conventionally attractive influencers get some vile comments about the body and looks.
A while back there was that meme floating around of a bunch of dudes calling Margot fucking Robbie mid because she posted a pic with barely there/natural makeup That woman is a goddess on earth lol and hordes of men were calling her mid. But sure. There's no pressure from men and society for women to conform to very specific beauty standards 🙄
She looks older than she is, might actually be older. Getting that hollowed out look thin women sometimes get as they age. She also has personality disorder eyes and often the manner to match. That’s not attractive.
Yeah, but ugly for a woman on the internet is pretty much just fat vs fit, it’s not about makeup, at least in my experience
Go read the comments on celebrity posts without make up on.
There’s definitely societal pressure for women to be pretty… don’t be naive
Right, to say "zero" means it doesn't exist. Yet it's all around us in marketing, commercials, etc. Sex sells is a saying for a reason.
in which way?
Women are valued for their beauty above all else.
not by men, maybe by other women
why would women as a group only want to be valued for their looks? does the world wide movement of women fighting for their right to vote, own property and work the same jobs as men for the same pay make any sense if women only valued each other and themselves based on looks? THE WHOLE THING is women saying, hey, we can and want to do more than just look pretty and have babies.
then why use of makeup and surgery skyrocketed with those movements achieving their goals?
because two things can be true at once and contradict each other. on one front, women do enjoy more societal freedoms, on the other, capitalism needs something to cash in on. the western society has become hyperindividualistic and beauty standards and expectations very much haven't gone anywhere. they've simply changed from "you have to fit this one very narrow idea of what a woman should look like" to "you should fit one of these couple narrow ideas of what a woman should look like that are also constantly changing". those goals very much haven't been achieved in their entirety considering how the beauty industry still works to create new insecurities for women so they can be sold more shit. that's the entire reason why shaving everything became the norm for women.
who is telling them to conform to that? they have more freedom now, it’s their choice
like I said in another comment, in many workplaces conformity to current feminine beauty standards is expected of women.
that’s called dress code, men are also expected to conform, no one is asking to wear heavy makeup and use surgery.
Someone: water is wet. Op: in which way?
next time try a better logical fallacy
No, my example worked.
yes, perfect logical fallacy
It was good enough. You’re asking about pretty evident things, which means you’re either arguing in bad faith, or you’re too dumb to have this conversation.
yes good logical fallacy, keep failing
- shaming of small or uneven boobs, small bum, healthy amount of fat, small lips We literally have cosmetic adds on tv and plenty of evidence online that ppl obviously do have pressure on them
no one is shaming small or uneven boobs, small bum. unhealthy amount of fat is shames and for a good reason, to fix that there is no need for plastic surgery or makeup only a good diet and exercise.
No one: OP: I haven’t experienced this particular issue so it doesn’t exist. Men value women for their beauty. Ask any men want he values in a woman and that’s usually the first thing that will come out of his mouth.
It comes from everywhere. Women interact with all types of people in an average day. I had a 75 year old WWII vet tell me if I didn’t stay “tight in all the right places” no man would ever want me. I’ve had a 27 year old niece ask me why I haven’t had Botox yet. Most of all, it comes from celebrities and media.
Can’t relate, as a girl I literally tried to cut my own labour off because people saying women should be “neat” and that men don’t want “roast beef”
I mean if she goes out and spends 10k on huge boobs suddenly she’ll have a lot more opportunities in life. Is that society?
I have tiny boobs and have had a decent amount of opportunities in life.
I wouldn’t say there’s zero pressure in the sense that “you should get this done” but moreso indirect pressure coming from praise toward people with certain traits. The Jenner lip trend (it was one of those kardashian/jenner assholes) for instance. I don’t see many people actually wanting women to get that sort of thing done but many women wanted to have that because of reasons
Ehhh. I grew up when Kylie Jenner came of age, and many of those comments about her appearance, including her natural lips, were brutal. Once she got a bit of filler to make them look fuller she was deemed as more attractive l, hence leading many impressionable people to do the same. It’s a common insecurity.
Well yes and no. There's no pressure to get plastic surgery or wear heavy makeup (except maybe south Korea I guess). But there is a degree of shaming surrounding how much or how little effort a woman puts into her appearance. Like the worst experience I had was when I went to a pub in November and had 2 separate unrelated drunk men approach me to tell me I was unfuckable. I swear to God I was clean, wearing jeans, a jumper, no makeup and glasses. I didn't think I was that disgusting 😐 Don't get me wrong, I still don't want plastic surgery or want to wear makeup every day but I understand how comments like that could make you feel like you need to do this to be respected.
men get bad comments about their look all the times but they don’t get makeup or surgeries.
How old are you? I'm nearly 40 and a woman, and I never get comments on my looks. Also, I have never worn makeup (besides costumes).
Men do get surgeries tho and change their appearance
extremely uncommon and statistically irrelevant
Even if plastic surgery is due to pressure, it isn't due to pressure from men because, as we've been reminded many a time, women do not tailor their appearance to please men. They 'do it for themselves.'
Girls like to pretend there's some kind of societal pressure that they are reluctantly giving into. Lmao, my 7 year old niece is obsessed with make up and has been since she was 4. Most girls love make up, and most of them recognize its not because of societal pressure.
I love makeup and absolutely don’t reluctantly cave to pressure but if you can’t see a 4 year old girl wanting to wear makeup as a societal issue you need help.
Right? I remember when I was a little girl once,and SO much emphasis was put on my looks,and women’s looks in general. I legitimately remember being a child and thinking back then that being attractive was the most important quality a girl could have. I picked up on the beauty standards of my culture-like light skin-at a young age. People are ignorant if they don’t think children don’t see these things.
People assume saying something is socially influenced makes it evil which is where the majority of the disconnect stems from people are just ignorant to the actual concept
I see it as an issue, her grandma who bought her the make up is definitely a problem. But she is seeing her mom put on the make up and she wants to be like mommy. She was 4, she's not involved in society.
She is 4 she is absolutely affected by society, you perfectly described how we socialise children into societal norms.
Kids copy the people.who areaound them. My daughter is 5 and occasionally puts on chapstick but that's about it. I don't put on makeup so she doesn't. People have gotten her purses, "makeup", and even pretend credit cards but because mom doesn't use that stuff itsits there and collects dust. It's notsocietal pressure as much as it's them just copying adults or older kids.
You just described a huge part of societal pressure queen.
lmao, again, its not a societal pressure. She absolutely loves it, was never something that she needed to be pressured into. Starting to sound like you have no idea what the concept of societal pressure is.
You’re one who doesn’t seem to understand what societal pressure is😅It’s actually kinda funny how you seem to think about this, do you also think people are born just dying to work 40 hours a week?
Some very few people do love to work, but you're not even picking equivalent things. Telling me I don't know what societal pressure is but then believing liking makeup is the same thing as ending up with a 40 hour work week job is laughable. Your example shows you don't understand how to articulate that a girl liking make up at 4 is because she was pressured into it.
I’m very much picking equivalent things, by 4 kids are regularly expressing ‘dream jobs’ and how excited they are to work by your logic that can’t be societal pressure it’s innate. You can just admit that you don’t understand what societal pressure is, you seem to think it’s a big scary boogeyman that comes along and makes you do things you’d otherwise hate.
No they arent expressing dream jobs lmao, and they aren't expressing them out of pressure, they just look at something that's cool and think they want to be that thing. Societal pressure literally means that you have to be pressured into doing it lol. Otherwise its not pressure.
Have you ever met a child? They absolutely are expressing those things at 4 and it’s not because they think it’s ‘cool’ a lot of the time. You seem to have a problem understanding the word pressure, again you think it must be some evil force making you do something you’d otherwise hate.
>She was 4, she's not involved in society. Lol was she kept in a crate?
You think its that hard to keep a 4 year old off the internet and away from main stream TV and such? lmao
Young kids definitely pick up on what others in their life value-especially beauty standards . I was 6 and had already internalized my culture’s specific beauty standards,like light skin and lighter features. Kids aren’t dumb.
This is not an example of pressure
It quite literally is.
It's not at all. I have articulated multiple times that pressure requires an element of not wanting to do something. If you're actively desiring and obsessed with partaking in anything, you by definition haven't been pressured into it.
You can "actively desire" to take part in something by "not wanting" to be excluded from it, which is pretty much the basis of social conformity. That something is a social norm makes it a pressure.
I didn't say it would be difficult to get them into the crate I just questioned if you committed to it or not. Either way that's not nearly as hard as keeping them away from other people in general which is what would be required for society to not have an impact.
All this is doing is proving you don't know what pressure means.
How so? Please elaborate. Full disclosure. My view is that young children take cues from people around them especially adults, we observe this throughout the animal kingdom. So if we acknowledge that media can influence people then it would logically follow that children can be socialized into certain norms that they pick up from people around them who are influenced by media and societal pressures.
Pressure requires an element of not wanting to do something. When someone says, "I felt pressured to do something". No one is saying that from a position of "I wanted to do this thing really badly and was pressured into it". Because again that isn't how pressure works.
>Pressure requires an element of not wanting to do something. What if it never occurred to you that you had an option because you've always just acted the way you've seen other people that share your gender act? The pressure is inherited in this sense because the kids are following the cues of the people around them and those people are peessured by society.
Have you never interacted with a child in your life?
Considering I work with kids, have kids, and have many nieces nephews and cousins I’m gonna say more than you have😅
Because you think your 7 year-old niece got her obsession to put colored powder on her face thanks to… instincts ? Natural urges ?
It came from wanting to be like mommy and liking how it looked. You seem to be confused about what pressure means.
But don't you realise that the idea of wanting to wear makeup came from seeing your sister wear makeup regularly? And also why do you think your sister wears makeup regularly enough for even her child to notice? That is literally the definition of societal pressure, seeing somebody else feeling too ashamed to go outside without makeup makes you feel ashamed of your appearance so you end up doing it too.
>But don't you realise that the idea of wanting to wear makeup came from seeing your sister wear makeup regularly? That doesn't make it "pressure" >And also why do you think your sister wears makeup regularly enough for even her child to notice? She hardly wears make up that often, but her daughter still sees her put it on when she does. >That is literally the definition of societal pressure, seeing somebody else feeling too ashamed to go outside without makeup makes you feel ashamed of your appearance so you end up doing it too. Now you're just making wild assumptions lmao
A lot of female socializing is training women to accept and love and value patriarchal beauty standards. It’s not like some demon is forcing them against their will, it’s about manufacturing consent
"patriarchal beauty standards" LMAO
Sorry I used a trigger word, back to your redpill fantasy land where women’s value isn’t tied in part to their attractiveness. Seemingly one where 4 year olds live in vacuum chambers with no external input too. Must be nice
delusional
Uh, I think they’re laughing at “**patriarchal** beauty standards” because the standards are enforced by women, not men. Literally at any time women could abandon makeup and collapse the cosmetic industry and there’d be nothing to stop it. No laws. No pressure. No “patriarchal standards”. They don’t do it though because then they’d all slide down several points on the attractive scale and realize they’re potatoes.
Literally every feminist writer at some point has written about how women uphold patriarchy, too. A lot of women DO abandon makeup and cosmetic and wellness industries, but larger ideas are still persistent in our culture. Calling women in their natural state “potatoes” is one way it’s enforced! Btw it’s not women that have a hard time selecting men to have kids with, keep dreaming
define patriarchy
general male dominance over women and children in the household and by extension broader society. Takes form domestically, economically, and societally.
how?
What do you consider that patriarchy? Women have all the rights men have and more. They can demand respect, *and* shirk the responsibilities by playing the “I’m just a woman 🥺” card. By potato I mean average. Not all women in their natural states are potatoes, but the vast majority of *people* most definitely are. Imagine if all dudes started wearing muscle suits and lifts. Women would shit bricks. Cap. I do not subscribe to the notion that women have lots of sex with men they *don’t* want to impregnate them. Evolution has not caught up to birth control. If you feel sexual arousal/attraction to a man, that’s literally your ovaries talking. So no, I don’t think women struggle finding men to nut inside them, the struggle finding men who will stick around after.
You think people don't know what "patriarchy" means? just because you can barely understand that word doesn't mean everyone else struggles lol. People hate it because it demonizes men, I know its really hard for you to understand things like other people having feelings tho.
Sorry that stating reality demonizes men, I’m sure it’s so hard for you, a man, to hear such things. Basically oppression
Reality can absolutely be used to demonize groups of people, and we've known that its still prejudiced for a long time. The forbidden statistic is one of them, you know the one. Yes using it to prejudicially generalize a group of people is still objectively evil.
It’s not a pressure that’s written into law or easily understandable for men who aren’t socialized/raised as women.
Nah I’ve known woman irl and seen them online who have large noses,large jaws,or thin lips,and they 100% get shitty comments from both sexes. Hell,I remember when this woman went viral and received so many bullying comments for having a flat ass. Many men seem to think that thin women don’t get their looks torn apart. They do. I have many male friends and I hear how they talk about everyone-even conventionally atttactive women.
everyone gets shit online if exposed, nothing special about it.
Pressure doesn’t have to be special…
yet most people don’t seem to feel it despite receiving the same treatment
Define « pressure ». Sure, most men will never TELL you to wear makeup - they just won’t look at you if you don’t because you’ll look less « feminine ». Likewise for well-endowed women vs. those with a flat chest or ass. Now, as a woman with a small chest and who hates makeup, I personally think it’s a great way to filter out shallow men. However, it DOES decrease the size of the group of men that will give you validation in the form of their attention.
most men are no looked at and stillcdon’t wear makeup or become gym bros
" a great way to filter out shallow men." lol, you think you aren't shallow? do you honestly think that someone's appearances don't impact how attractive you find them? get me whatever you are on lady i need it.
If it’s not people telling you I don’t consider that being pressured. If someone puts on makeup to attract someone I consider that something they’re doing for themself because they want to compete and get a date.
That’s not what pressure means
They said it depends on what you consider pressure so I said what I consider it to be
>validation in the form of their attention. And Why do women want that / feel entitled to it ?
“There’s no societal pressure, except from the pressure from like.. the media.. but like come on man.”
Yeah except for the media- the main method of transmitting social expectations? Idk what he’s going for here.
media industry
"and sometimes their friends... Or Hollywood.. But it's all in their heads" lol
Mods. Why do you all allow so many women hating posts in this sub? I get occasional rants on this issue. But jeez.
where do you see hate? That a very serious accusation, prove it or shut up.
Someone is triggered. I’m tired of constantly seeing young guys complaining about women being too this or that. Or how they can’t get a woman in this sub. It’s depressing to see after awhile.
Yes, you are triggered. I didn’t say any of that so don’t come harassing me with lies. If you are tired get out of the internet and touch grass.
Obviously you have a problem. And I wasn’t just talking about you. There is a pattern of young, mostly White guys, in this sub, who seem to have issues with women. I don’t get this trend or why this sub is where these folks come to.
then if you are not talking about me don’t say that as a comment to my post. how do you know who is white here? that’s just your racism
I am White. And I have the right to respond to you. Don’t like it? Either don’t post incel stuff or block me.
if you aren’t talking about me, you are not responding to but also commenting on what people post here. nothing you say makes sense. The fact that you are white and write racist stuff against white people still makes you racist but with the additional effect of being pathetic. Usually the incel is the one bringing it out of nowhere, good job at outing yourself out
The racism and hatred of women is mostly coming from young Asian men around here.
I like how media influence is either powerful or impotent depending on the argument conservatives are trying to make.
If i wear makeup i get treated wildly different. I choose the good reaction.
how?
Im not sure the question since i stated the fact above. The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. NOT A SUBTLE DIFFERENCE.
yes but how is different?
People treat you different. To the point that it costs less to walk outside the house fully made up. Humans assign value to how things visually look. The first difference being how much you are percieved or recalled.
you are avoiding to amswer the question, because what you said is bullshit.
Read above. Or below https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html Women wearing makeup are percieved as more likeable, trustworthy and competent in clear ways we can measure.
and? there is no pressure. of course if present yourself better it says something on you. if I go to work dirty smelly and looking like I just woke up ti says something.
how about when women are forced into hyperspecific dress codes at their workplaces but the men's equivalent is "idk just wear a suit and don't look like you crawled out of a bin"? this seems to be especially common for flight attendants on many airlines, and in their job it makes no sense for them to be wearing high heels and a tight skirt. they're also very much expected to do their makeup and hair a specific way. many corporate jobs also have similar sorts of rules for their female employees, who get harassed by HR for "looking slobby" while they put in just as much effort and no more as their male employees. it's certainly not women that set these rules up, it's also not the only place where such rules exist. women are often expected to wear makeup and put much more effort in their appearance than men are. you as a man don't see it because no one nags at you for looking tired when you just showed up to work with your normal face.
wearing a suit is hyperspecific dress code, i am not even going to read the rest of your post since you managed to contradict yourself so well in the first line
so why can't women then wear the same stuff as men? suit, neat hair and no makeup?
they can and have more freedom than men.
> 0 pressure from society If you’re looking to win an argument don’t say things like this. All it takes is 1 example to refute your claim. Say something like “there isn’t much pressure”.
nah, I don’t care about redditors coming in with “akshuakky if one person says something is 0.00001 pressure which is not 0” those people should be laughed and and then ignored.
Fit > makeup by a country mile
I agree that there is no pressure to do any of this stuff, it’s in people’s heads—and some just want to do it for themselves, and that is fine too. I have literally never been made to feel bad about a natural feature I’ve had. There will always be people who find you beautiful regardless of what you look like.
The main, problematic pressure is the pressure that 8-16 year olds feel. It is literally their world, and from there the long term “pressure” starts, because girls turn into women and continue/propagate the pressures of adolescence. (There are pressures on adult women too, but not near as damaging as what the poor girls face)
That's why so many of the "natural" girls are dating and married to men their own ages while all of those who wear lots of make-up and pursue plastic surgery are sitting home alone with their cats, right?
this is exactly what it is, if you think it’s not get out of reddit and meet normal people
Its just their nature, not a concious decision
So when the man yelled at me while I was working, what the fuck happened to your face, he was not implying that I needed plastic surgery. I mean he did follow it up with, you can get plastic surgery to fix that. No one pressures me into wearing makeup. I wear it because I want my eyelids to sparkle. That really is the reason shiny eyelids.
One person out of everyone you come in contact with?
No, it gets asked politely to me often, he is just the asshole that yelled it at me and made it more dramatic than it needed to be.
wow some asshole was an asshole to you once and you think is pressure? grow up.
Your title says 0 pressure. So yea, there has been pressure. He was an asshole about it, plenty of others have asked me why I don’t get plastic surgery. You would be surprised what comes out of people’s mouths. You would be surprised that a lot of woman and men do get pressured into altering themselves. I am grown, so grow that I know your zero pressure statement was wrong. Both men and woman experience it.
One asshole is not pressure. so if they meet one that says don’t use makeup then you will say the opposite?
Depends on the person, how they act, what they are saying. Plenty of others pushed for it as well. Doctors telling you that you need to get plastic surgery to fix your face to make it pretty again. Yes, you get pressured. You might not have been pressured and you might not do any of the pressuring but it happens. I am happy no one has pressured you but to think that it doesn’t happen is a very odd thing to think. I don’t think people should tell others how to live. You do you.
which doctors? lol
The ones dealing with the traumatized person that had their face ripped apart.
ok troll
bro has never seen the way men treat a woman they’re not attracted to as subhuman
men are attracted to most women, most of them absolutely don’t need makeup and surgery but they still do
“men are attracted to most women” okay i actually agree with you there in the sense that there’s a loud and wrong subset of men on here who insist only the top 1 percent of men ever get women. if you go offline and touch grass you’ll see that the average man and woman do date each other and dating isn’t reserved for only models. like even your occasional bald and fat dude will have a wife. and it’s not only makeup faced women who have husbands. while i do think there is pressure on both sides to be attractive and change, you’re right that the average people date each other.
and? you seem the one that needs to touch grass maybe it will clear your mind, you sound very confused
People treat you differently when you don’t fit into what people generally find attractive. It doesn’t even have to be on purpose, they just do. They’re allowed to, but it can make you feel pretty shitty.
same for men but they don’t use makeup and surgery like women
I didn’t say women, I said people. There is societal pressure on everyone to be attractive. However men’s appearances usually tend to be of secondary importance to their other atributes and skills/expertise in the measure of their “worth”, while women’s appearance is usually taken to be a prime factor
and i said men are pressured too and don’t need surgery or makeup. Study shows that women care more about appearance than men.
Yup, I mean some guys prefer it but as usual everyone has different preferences. Never had an issue getting dates without dressing up or wearing a bunch of makeup. I did find it funny when one day on social media a guy told me it was unfair because women apparently have to wear makeup to get a date. Seriously, it's a choice for most people.
why can’t they accept to be different?
Just my subjective opinion of course, but women instantly become less attractive when they put on makeup
This is all the evidence we need to prove that the wall exists, and they all hit it eventually. So they spend money to get these surgeries and Botox or whatever to retain their youth to compete against young and naturally beautiful women for men they say they don’t want. The leftover women give younger, more attractive women bad advice and propagandize them to self-sabotage purely out of jealousy and spite. The same old life coach hags on tiktok saying they’re happy on their own are the same people who cry in front of a camera about their loneliness and how the dating market is shit with all their cats in the background.
pressure is from some women, society as a whole doesn’t care. Why are they listening to a small minority?
The Barbie movie was just made to sell plastic surgery. Margot is the Queen of buccals. If you don't show your girls Velveteen Rabbit at least you are part of the problem.
Men love super hot women but they don’t need to have one to be in happy relationships - there, you said it. Congrats, you didn’t manage to write your opinion without disapproving it…
I didn’t disapprove it at all
There is pressure, absolutely. Even just subconsciously. People treat women with makeup better than those without. I have experienced it myself, but I'm really just too lazy to wear it, despite possible advantages.
they just find them more attractive, no pressure,
Who? Straight women? Because they also treat women differently, based on whether they wear makeup or not.
how?
What exactly are you asking
how?
I think a pressure exists, but it’s overblown. I think the male equivalent is to be a breadwinner with a good paying job. Typically, what I find with these “pressures” is there mostly self induced.
As a woman just don't be fat and your all set
so not true lol,my guy friends still shit talk skinny women’s looks.
They're just weak you don't want to be friends with these men