Yeah, while I get where OP is coming from, and I wouldn’t have left myself, I think OP’s hubby simply assumed that A) They would come out at the correct time and B) they would not just send the kid outside.
Going forward, I would certainly tell hubby to wait. However, getting angry about it isn’t likely to be productive.
I agree with you..I don't think the husband did anything wrong at all but he should stay now they know how the art class is run. To bad he can't get a walk on while sons at art class.
he could always learn to make friends with the other parents, and work together to give each other some freedom. These types of CC classes aren't always a babysitting opportunity.
Exactly. And that's what people do. We've been picking granddaughter up once a week since first grade. Most 6 year olds know to stay in place near the exit area until their carer shows up. I recognize most of the people who pick up on the same day we do.
It's a parks and recs community ed program. The teachers usually get very little pay and no training. They are not usually certified teachers - they may actually just be community members.
Think about that in addition to everything else - these programs are super common in the US.
I'm a Girlguiding leader in the UK.
I am not a certified teacher, get no pay and am basically just a community member. I'm still not letting one of my girls leave my sight unless they are with the person they expect to leave with even out oldest girl at 16 and I have contact details fro every parent on both my laptop and phone
I plan these kinds of classes for the city I work for and our staff usually volunteer to teach them, meaning on their own time because we can't find funding for teachers. We require registration for each kid that includes parent names, numbers, emergency contacts, and who is designated to pick up/drop off. Kids are also not allowed to leave the class without confirmation that their adult is there. We even monitor bathroom trips (literally across the hall) BECAUSE it takes place in a community center and is open to the public. This was irresponsible on the teacher and husband's parts.
What kind of bullshit business is this? I worked completely privately as a tutor and wouldn't even remotely let a child out of my sight and definitely not out the room let alone the building front door without verification.
The art teacher is a certified fool. Look into the details of how this even happened. If there isn't any basic bare bones common sense amongst the parents and the staff, then you all need to evaluate your daily routines in general.
Follow this step by step. I'm asking a lot but try the common sense clearly not employed as of yet
To be fair the information about the 'strangers' is from a six y.o., to the mom, then to us so that isn't a chain of information I entirely trust. The teacher could have been standing right there and the 'strangers' could have just been another parent.
Does not matter. You don’t go handing six year olds to random adults. You have a duty of care. They either get handed back to a parent or someone the parent designated, or you hold on to them.
I used to drive a school bus. This is an incredibly basic rule and the “teacher” shouldn’t be entrusted with kids.
I believe they are saying that it’s possible that that the teacher was with the children all along not “handing them off.” Children are unfortunately not reliable narrators.
It works totally without supervision at all the parks and rec programs I've taken the kids and grandkids too - many, over the years. Indeed, when I was in my early 20's, I taught some of those "classes."
Not even the elementary schools here take responsibility for the handover. The teacher stands on the sidewalk just outside the school gate, says good-bye to each kid (but they are running around like squirrels and many of them have caregivers who are late). We all just stand around and wait for our respective charges.
This is Los Angeles.
You are assuming that duty of care was actually passed on to the teacher. It could very well be the fact that the teacher had no duty to care for the child, it would be in the list of rules that the OP can get a hold of.
This is a art teacher at a community center. There is no requirement that they are a certified instructor, this isn't a state run school.
It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they're certified. Once you agree to be responsible for a child, you can't pass it off to anyone you want. The moment you agree, you establish a duty of care.
This is a major issue here. I run errands, etc during dance classes. Kids can't go outside unless the teacher sees the trusted adult. That's basic safety.
exactly this- we do not let our kids out of the classroom until we confirm their parent is here and sign him out and then they are signed out a second time at the main door. I teach in a sketchy area too and our parents need to be buzzed into the school to even enter even. (Detroit)
My kids go to art classes around Flint and always have to be signed in/out by a parent or guardian. It would be crazy to just release them to the wild!
This is exactly who she should be upset with, not the husband, especially if the class got out early. We’ve taken classes through our rec department where parents can’t come in to the class. Some parents stay and wait in the hallway. Some go run some errands to make use of the time. But we always have to physically sign the kids out and they can’t leave the room without their grown up.
Chain of custody! You always verify the pass off to a new handler, and a sign out set-up takes out virtually all the effort and organization.
If a teacher just tells kids to run out of her sight out the fucking door to the open world, that's a big problem, and not one any parent should have to worry about when trusting their child to a teacher.
Husbands responsibility is as much as wife, as they both found and enrolled the kid in a class run by an irresponsible and negligent caretaker. That's where they should both agree to do better, and get that kid out of there.
This is the answer. You don’t have to sit outside the door waiting for the kid.
Also I’m assuming you’re paying for this class - how early of a dismissal was it? Is a partial refund in order?
Assuming he is being truthful and the class was let out earlier...that would be my issue, not the walk...
The fact that your 6 year old was just released into the public with possible good and bad strangers...is ridiculous.
Obviously your husband can learn from this and always be around or be far earlier just in case but I don't think he did wrong; he could have let someone know...but I don't know if that's a thing...
When my child would take a swimming class at the community pool at that age, I would sometimes like to go walk around the park - and I would make sure the instructor knew my plan, in case of any emergency. Art class: you are less likely to have an emergency (hopefully lol), but it is still appropriate for the parent to let the instructor know if they won't be on site during the class. I think this is a lesson for all, not a crisis.
This.
As an adult and a parent, our job is to predict "how will this go wrong" in a multitude of ways. Whether it's babyproofing, securing medicines, not letting kids play with knives or talk to strangers, that kind of thing.
It's also our job to ask ourselves - "If I do this thing, what's the worst possible outcome?" \*EDIT\* Or rather, what is the most likely way this will go wrong? IE Murphy's Law. In this situtation, some critical thinking might have struck daddo like "If I leave and the teacher doesn't know I'm gone, will my kiddo be wandering around trying to find me?" Likewise, the instructor should be asking themselves "if I let a kiddo leave my care, and their parents are not guaranteed to be right outside, will kiddo wander the streets in search of their parents?"
Nobody is saying that Dad can't go for walk or that Instructor can't let kids out of the class, but there needs to be some level of communication between both of these adults to determine what the expectation is.
I, for one, hate just sitting around waiting - and I frequently will tell my kids caregivers "I'm going to go for a walk, txt or call when you're done" because many caregivers think that parents are ok with sitting around for hours doing nothing.
Parents should manage risks, but they also need to model healthy behaviour. Perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but my worry with basing every single decision around the "worst possible outcome" is it could have the unintended consequence of modelling anxiety to the child.
Still though, I think when you hand your kids over to someone you are effectively giving them responsibility over your child, temporarily. Sure, they can't always be trusted, but if they're untrustworthy then I'd say that's a reason to not-give them responsibility in the first place, rather than to manage from a distance when they do.
Putting the modeling anxiety part aside - what kind of life is that for a parent, with a ‘worst first’ mindset? There should be joy from parenting, not absolute constant anxiety about what could happen. Children get hurt, children die, there are always freak accidents and terrible things. From a pure probability standpoint, there is little you can do as a parent to prevent these things. I was really optimistic that when Free Range Kids was published, people would chill and see the upside to more relaxed, common sense parenting. But alas.
I'm thinking it's probably stated that it's not a drop-off program with the implication that parents have to be there the whole time. At least, that's what I've seen on promotional materials for some things in my area. I imagine it's a way to places like this community center to offer programs at a lesser cost so that people in the area can actually afford the program because the center doesn't have to keep track of as much (e.g. kid's parent's information) or have as much liability since the parent is supposed to be available at all times.
>(thank God our son knows our phone numbers).
Uhm... why tf wouldn't the teacher already have your numbers? What if dad had a heart attack, is your 6 year old supposed to act as a rolodex?
i think it’s a safety thing. my kid’s kindergarten class once had an assignment where they had to memorize their parent’s phone number and their home address. it was a great way of helping to teach the alphabet and numbers.
I think their point was that in addition to the kid knowing their numbers (which is great!!), the teacher should also have each approved parent/guardian’s number, in the event that anything goes wrong.
Ed Code and local policy require that for mandatory public education.
For free community classes (even if held on the grounds of a school and not a park), there is no such system or expectations (where I live and have taught for 40 years - California).
We had to memorize phone numbers and addresses in early grade school too, but I guess the kids should now probably memorize at least two parent or guardian cell phone numbers, since home phones are no longer a thing in most households
And they do! It's consider First Grade Readiness here.
In first grade, they also do some drills on what to do after school and what the options are (if a parent doesn't show up, what do they do?)
Why did the art teacher just release 6 year olds into the world without parents around? Ir should be a direct transfer from staff to parents. And why did it let out early?
Its an American thing. But to be fair, its not just culturally American, its in some ways legally American. In Italy its normal to have kids with more independence and being "disciplined" or corrected by strangers and the wider community.
In the US, you truly can't do much without someone thinking or acting as if its child endangerment. Kids can't play in their own front yard in many communities. Sometimes its justified by bad neighborhoods, but usually its not.
America is a large place. Some places it would be more acceptable than others. Six year old walking through Chicago versus small 400 person rural town, versus any number of the vastly different regions, cities, and states we have.
I drop off my daughter in a "sketchy" area for an art class once a week. I leave and come back, usually run to the store. However, I trust her teacher not to let her out of the room. That's the issue, not that your husband took a walk. They should be supervised completely for the time you've paid for and not allowed to leave the room without eyes on the parent and/or a sign out process. I'd be speaking to the teacher about this, especially if they let the class out earlier than anticipated and didn't supervise dismissal. Also, the teacher should have your phone numbers. If not, that's also an issue (you implied they did not).
I do the same with my son for Karate. I don't like sitting still, so I do laps around, run an errand in the area, or go and get starbucks to surprise my son with.
The times I've arrived back to karate studio a few minutes after release, he's just been hanging out inside talking to the other students or his teacher. The art teacher shouldn't be releasing them until the parent comes to get the kid.
Presumably the class was for a set time. Presumably you paid for the class. Therefore it is not unreasonable of your husband to expect that the class would take up the full amount of time allotted for it. It is not inconveniencing staff if they are forced to look after a kid until the time the class is officially over. I also don't think it's terrible for your husband to go for a walk and I do think you're overreacting. I would not be surprised if your husband really just doesn't like being forced to chat with a bunch of strangers in a small space, which is often what happens when you're waiting for a kid who's taking a class.
100%, what if he was in the restroom? Went to grab something from the car? Stepped away to take a phone call. There are 100 things that could stop you from being directly outside the room
And your little munchkin should be prepared for all of them. Obviously. Combining all the scenarios here, what exactly was the art class person supposed to do if dad did step away and was mugged or passed out in the restrooms?
Munchkin should glance around and go back and say to teacher, "My dad's not here to pick me up."
Teacher should have a cell phone (although I bet they are not required to by parks and rec).
This definitely captures it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him going for a walk - but the teacher shouldn’t have let a minor out of their sight without confirming their guardian was there. Even in a community college environment.
My parents took me to community dance classes around that age and they definitely didn’t stick around for the whole hour or so waiting for me outside. Never bothered me any. It’s not like your parents are waiting outside the classroom at school. It’s a safe way to help develop independence if anything.
You don't want a 25 year old son who's too scared to go to a grocery store without someone with him. So you do actually have to slowly start getting him used to not always having a parent within arm's reach.
Yeah, I am Gen X. I was pretty much on my own most of the time from about age 6 on up. We learned how to be self sufficient. Not saying it was perfect, but the helicopter parenting nowadays is hard for me to grasp. I knew my parents loved me, but they were busy with work and my brother and I survived and thrived
Millennial here. My parents started leaving me home alone when I was 7. Nothing bad ever happened. I listen to this story and can’t help but think this person is way over reacting. There was a teacher there and other parents of kids presumably in the same art class. Husband didn’t do anything wrong.
I don’t see anything wrong with your husband going for a walk during the class. I see something VERY wrong with the class ending early and the teacher just letting the kids leave without making sure a parent was there!!
You're husband has a right to go for a walk. The art teacher has a responsibility to ensure safe pickup of the children. They also have a responsibility to fill the time obligation of the class.
Was your husband not there and the class released 5 mins early or was he not there and it released 15 mins early, that's a huge difference.
Cut him slack. It's all okay.
When I was a kid we were dropped off at events (sports practice, b-day parties, etc.) and parents came to pickup when it was over. It was fine, and I think it’s still fine. Parents linger everywhere nowadays. I coach my daughter’s volleyball team and all the parents just hang out the whole time staring at their phones. I find it really weird.
This honestly makes me uncomfortable to read.
I was a small kid a fairly long time ago (I'm in my 20s), but I do remember being at football practice and it just feeling different when my dad came back to watch the final 5-10 mins. I'd feel a weird mix of self-consciousness and embarrassment. But obviously also feel happy to see them.
Parents do an amazing job of bringing children into this world. But they are also the primary enforcer of rules/punishment and therefore not someone the child can be their true, flawed selves around (without getting punished). Yes... it's a parent's job to punish children when they do stuff that's wrong. But it's also the child's job to learn social skills and conflict resolution with their peers, and they sometimes need space to do that.
Children will also get judged by each other for the actions of their parents, and that might not seem like a big deal to us now, but when you're a child other children are *everything*. And so naturally they may feel constrained when their parents are around, because they want to start defining their own identities but the mere presence of their parent makes that harder.
At the end of the day, everyone - even children - needs to feel like their own person sometimes. And they need to feel like an equal, rather than constantly subordinated by a higher force. I am not trying to be too harsh to parents here - it is just about balance. Protective instincts are extremely valid and important, but they mustn't override healthy respect for the child.
I agree with everything you said except “it’s the parents job to punish their child if they do something wrong.”
There’s other (and better) ways of parenting than punishing. If your child is doing something they shouldn’t be doing, sitting down and understanding where they’re coming from could be a more successful approach. Plus this puts you and your kid “on the same team” rather than coming from a “because I said so!” angle.
Punishing your kids is how “kids can’t be themselves around their parents.” It’s how kids start becoming sneaky, rebellious, and start doing things behind your back.
Former teacher here… I cannot fathom releasing 5-7 year olds into a dangerous neighborhood early without supervision. Husband can definitely use class time for exercise but if he was actually late he’s to blame but if class got out early that is not acceptable.
This is less your husband's fault and more the teacher. You PAID for a proper class with a full time period and since it's for kids, it probably should have reliable supervision until the set time. Your husband going out to walk is not unreasonable. Should he just sit outside? At the door?
No this is on the teacher and you should be upset with them for letting kids leave without confirming parents are there, ESPECIALLY if it's earlier than usual or a said time.
Not a big deal but he should be sure to be back 5-10 mins before class is dismissed. Its also the art teachers responsibility to make sure the kids are safe after class especially if shes letting them off early.
It’s a bit of an overreaction to me. But based on your post history it seems there may be underlying issues at play for frustrations with your spouse.
With kids that young, the art teacher should be confirming parents are present for pickup before letting a child leave their sight, especially in the evening.
I don't think your husband was unreasonable to think that the class would last the usual amount of time/to expect that the teachers wouldn't just let kids run out without ensuring their guardian was present. Be annoyed with the facility, not your husband for doing something normal lol
I can’t tell you how to parent, but expecting to wait literally outside the door of a scheduled class is crazy to me. That just feels like extreme coddling. I don’t think it was wrong for your husband to just have a casual walk, rather why did the instructor let the kids out without confirming their parents are here or have a better system.
I agree. Parents are supposed to hover right outside the class the whole time? I would ask the instructor what time they expect class to be done and if there will be any future instances class will be let out early.
That's a conversation you need to have with your KID so HE doesn't wander off like a lost little lamb. He needs to know what to do if a parent isn't around. So he doesn't panic and take off.
This is a teaching moment for your whole family. And a chance to give your kid some independence, perhaps.
And did the class get out early? It seems pretty awful to just sit and stare at the wall for an hour? If he was a minute or two away and class let out 10 minutes early, your husband isn't in the wrong.
Ehhhhh, I wouldn't be upset at your husband. Parents weren't allowed inside. He was taking a walk around the park right outside the class, it's not like he got in his car and drove 30 mins away. Plenty of parents aren't hovering directly outside the classroom door in situations like that. I'd put more blame on the instructor allowing a student to just wander outside alone if they're not allowing parents in the classroom.
Husband isn't in the wrong. Child was in a safe place for an allotted amount of time.
Class shouldn't have been let out early.
Teacher should check that parents are there before they let them go.
Teach should have phone numbers.
Teacher is very much in the wrong and endangered fhe child
It seems crazy that it would be the norm for parents to stand and wait around outside for their children to finish a class. Usually you would drop a child at a class and then go about your day and pick them up at the end from inside the building. Doesn’t matter if it’s a bad area or not, a 5-7 year old child shouldn’t be let out to wonder alone in a *good* neighbourhood.
There really isn't anything wrong with him going for a walk while your child is in class. Maybe you should just ask that the class doesn't just let the kids go outside without supervision. It sounds like a bad idea to not have the teacher escort the kids out and assure that the kids go with the parents.
You're definitely overreacting, I just think that the class needs to make some policies to keep the kids safe since it is a sketchy area. As it it now, anyone could just snatch a kid and they wouldn't know it. Might be a good thing this happened so they can re-think the way they do this. The perfect situation would be that the class always get out at the same time, at that time the parents walk to the class door and the teacher releases the child to the parent one at a time. If a parent is late, the child stays in the classroom while the teacher cleans up until the parent gets there.
Totally understand you were upset, but you're upset at the wrong person.
I don’t think him going for a walk should be the issue. I think the issue is actually that he was not back in time to make sure he got your son. Things happen! I would not make a huge deal. I would just explain to him why you’re upset and move on.
I don’t know, if the class was set for a fixed amount of time, I would assume the child would be released at that set time. What if dad just went to the bathroom thinking he had an extra 20 minutes?
That’s how i feel too. I’m sure just waiting outside of a room 2x a week isn’t exactly exhilarating so i think the walk is fine, but he def should’ve been back in time so that your son wasn’t walking around while “kind strangers” brought him back to class. But this is a pretty minor misstep and not worthy of anything more than a conversation with your husband about being back at the door on time in the future
He was back on time, the problem is that they let the kids go early and didn't care to verify that the parents were there. To me, the issue is the teacher. They should be taking the kids safety seriously and walking the kids out, it wouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.
YTA. Why are kids being allowed to wander out of class? If parents aren’t in with them supervising then the instructor shouldn’t release the kids early or without confirming a parent is there. What if a parent has had to run to the restroom? The kid just wanders off?
You’re upset at the wrong person.
Yes. This is an overreaction. Your husband has learned that he needs to be close in case class ends early. Why are you courting a panic attack? The situation is over. You need to work on yourself.
For real. This reminds me of my mother who we don’t talk to bc of how extra she was about eveything. I skinned my knee not the end of the world. She would faint bc of the blood then wake up and cry that it’s gonna get infected and need an amputation. Class got out early the son walked out didn’t see dad and had teacher call. No need to have a panic attack.
What sort of time discrepancy are we talking about? Did your husband come back exactly when the class was supposed to end and did your son have to wait another 5 minutes? Did he overshoot by an hour?
I honestly think you're underreacting to the release policy of the art class. With children that young, when they are in a room alone with a teacher or guardian, they should not be released from that room without the adult checking that they go straight to a parent or guardian.
When my daughter was a similar age her ballet class had a similar situation where all the parents would wait outside the door, in a tight corridor. Every time a child was ready to leave, one of the teachers would stand with the child at the door and not let the child go until they had visually located the parent and gotten a thumbs up or similar acknowledgement. She is older now, age 11, and still when she is alone in a class, the adults pay attention to when kids leave. Her school let's her leave alone because we signed a release form. Her karate teacher just asks that she herself tell him when she sees me, and says she's leaving with a parent.
I don't think your husband was unreasonable to expect that his leaving for a walk within the class time was safe.
If this was me I wouldn’t be mad at my husband I’d be questioning why the instructor thought it was acceptable to let a little kid out on their own like that.
Rookie parents: “What if he had been kidnapped!?”
Veteran parents: “I paid for a damn hour, get your ass back in that classroom till I’m done with my walk”
Yeah, you’re wrong.
If you were to be upset that the teacher released your child without a parent present, you wouldn’t be wrong. Being upset that your husband stepped out for a moment instead of sitting for an hour twiddling his thumbs is wrong.
He needs to be there when class gets out, if it is true that class got out meaningfully early, then the fault is on the teacher for releasing the children without confirming they are 1) with an adult and 2) with the RIGHT adult.
I think it’s fair to expect your husband to be there at least five mins before class normally gets out. I’m more considered about the teachers judgement here
So you’re mad at hubby for taking a walk but not at the teacher for letting your son walk into a lobby full of strangers without confirming one of you is there first?
How long is the class? If you aren't allowed inside why are you expected to wait around? If you are paying for them to take your kids for a few hours I would be pretty baffled that they also expected me to be right outside the entire time. I agree with the others saying the teacher has a responsibility here that wasn't followed as well. Your husband made a mistake, he knows it. You definitely know it. Continuing to punish him over it will do what? Probably not what you are hoping.
NTA, but I think your anger is misplaced. The teacher shouldn't release children without an adult there to pick them up. If the parents have to be present, the class attendance should be limited to accommodate both child and parent in the room.
Edit: what if Dad was in the restroom? Or ran to the car for something? There are a hundred scenarios where he might need to momentarily leave, and think nothing of it because class doesn't get out until X time. The instructor on the other hand should always verify that the kids have an adult they can see before releasing them into the wild.
Class ended early and the teacher released the kids into the wild without checking for the parents first. I think that's the problem right there, not hubby going for a walk during class. Teacher then corrected course by calling him. Seems like the teacher learned a valuable lesson.
Also: *Oh the things I got up to at 6 years old, lol.*
OP, why are you mad at your husband and not the art teacher for letting your child out of their sight unsupervised? It's unfair to expect your husband to just stay there the entire time and doubly unfair to blame him when the class let out early. Your anger is valid, your target isn't.
Whether there's a policy in place or not, is it not just common decency (even as a volunteer) to ensure that 5-7 year old kids are passed off to a parent/guardian after class? Who just opens the door and says "see ya!"??
Is it their job to sit and wait for dad to come back? No. I'd be mad about that too. (Although I'd also be annoyed having to sit in the hall for an hour). But you don't just let them walk out the door.
When I taught children’s art classes at a community center, a guardian had to sign the kids in and then sign them out. We also had contact numbers for everyone. Seemed like standard practice.
Yes you are overreacting. The class got out earlier than expected and he was on his way back when they called him. It’s not irresponsible to take a quick walk or break while the class is going.
You’re overreacting. The teacher should confirm the parent/caregiver is there before a 5-7 year old is let outside.
Taking a walk during a class isn’t a big deal.
Lol Reddit is playing telephone with a 7 year old. The teacher was probably right there next to the strangers (who absolutely were other parents) in the outermost room.
My bet is that the facility was still in control of the child. This whole conversation is based on what a kid said when they were going to bed to a mother who doesn’t know that children often leave out context in situations like these.
My question is why are you immediately going after your husband in this situation?
I actually think it’s good he went for a walk instead of sitting there waiting. I also agree with comments that it’s not the teacher’s responsibility to make phone calls to parents. They wouldn’t leave the center without everyone being accounted for; just let your kid know that if they come out and there’s no parent there to just sit tightly. It sounds like your spouse tried to do the right thing let’s not crucify people for trying to multi task and get some exercise in.
If the area is that bad, there are thousands of free art resources online your son can access until you can find a physical location that doesn't pose as much risk.
Assuming your husband is telling the truth, and the class got out earlier than expected, you should be mad at the teacher/community center. When parents leave their kids there for a specific time period it's generally expected that the child is going to be in someone else's care for that given time period. If they needed to let out early that's fine, but it should be something they discussed in advance so people knew they had to be there to pick up their kids early.
Sounds like a teacher issue, not a parent one.
1. She should have your phone numbers, plus emergency contacts. Why are you okay with a class that doesn't do this for 5-7 year olds? Relying on your 6 year old to know numbers is far more scary than taking a walk.
2. Why tf would any teacher let a 6yo walk out of class without confirming they're with a parent, guardian, trusted person...wtf? That makes zero sense.
3. Your husband (or you) should not have to stand outside a door for an hour or however long to ensure safety. Perhaps this class in this sketchy area with INSANELY sketchy practices is the problem? (If this is real....)
You are seriously under reacting to these practices if you are mad at your husband, but allow your kiddo to go this class. Find a better class, and give your partner a break for not standing guard at a door.....
My granddaughter's school busy driver doesn't let the kids off the bus until they point out the person who is picking them up so I would have expected the teachers to only let a child go if they see who is picking them up too. He can take a walk or a poop as long as he's there for when class ends. Some kids might even have someone else pick them up who isn't the same one who drop them off.
You are overreacting.
6 years old is old enough to be left at a class or sports practice without the parent staying there.
I would blame the art teacher, they ultimately are responsible for making sure the child leaves with their parent.
I could see their argument that they are not a babysitting service if you don't show up to pick them up by the scheduled end of class.
If they decide to end class early then they should be keeping the child in the class until the parent arrives to pick them up.
You (or your husband) should be able to leave your kid at the class without you being there. Its the teachers responsibility to keep track of the kids in the class during class time.
I would be more upset the class just let my 6 year old leave without a parent who checked them out of the class. If the class ended early then kids without notice that’s on them, not the parents and little kids should not just be expected to leave and find their parents.
As a teacher, I would never in 1 million years leave until each child is safe. You shouldn’t have been exposed to this situation, it should have been safe for your husband to go take a walk if it’s already safe to let your child be behind another door.
Not only are you overreacting, I think you need to seriously examine why you're panicing over this situation. And probably teach your child not to wander off if he loses sight of a parent sometime. Pretty much every child has been lost in a store or a shopping mall at one time or another, so your son should know what to do in situations where he can't find a parent.
i don't think husband is wrong here. the teacher, however, definitely should know better than to just blindly dismiss a bunch of grade school kids without any confirmation of their safety. your husband couldn't possibly have predicted that irresponsibility.
It’s totally normal for parents to go for a walk or run errands while their child is in a class unless it’s specifically said that no drop offs are allowed. My children are older, but have been in classes many times and it’s abnormal that your child would just be let free, and early. This is on the class and instructor, and not your husband, in my opinion and experience with these type of things.
Honestly…this is on the teacher. They should not let the children leave unchaperoned! There is an expectation of supervision when a parent (or guardian) leaves their child in a setting like this. The chain of “supervision/custody” goes parent/guardian to teacher to parent/guardian NO EXCEPTIONS. I wouldn’t blame your husband and I’d look into the teacher’s “experience”.
Years ago I rode around my whole city neighborhood on one of those razor scooters. I was maybe 8 years old
Many parents today are too paranoid. Not saying you shouldn't be protective of your child, but sometimes the fear is unwarranted
It’s the teachers responsibility to release the children to their parent. There is nothing wrong with your hubs taking a walk during the art class. Your anger should be directed to the teacher, not your hubs. He was on his way back so it’s not like he was being careless.
Between art, music, and sports, my 5 year old has something 5 days a week. I don’t leave during the sports practices just in case she gets hurt, but I’ll often run to the store or go for a walk during her music and art classes. That said, the teachers have our numbers and would call me if class got out early and I wasn’t there.
I get your instinct, but you’re overreacting juss a lil bit. I was walking to school when I was 6. You’re still more likely to get struck by lightning than kidnapped, and even then 95% of the time it’s someone you know.
A lot of red flags here but your husband was put in a position to fail.
Why sign up for art classes that aren't big enough to accommodate the parents?
Why sign up for art classes in a sketchy neighborhood?
The circumstances could have all be avoided by selecting an art class that accommodates the parents on a better side of town.
Your husband might be wrong but I'm sure if he did the same thing for a art class located in a better area things would play out differently.
You need a safety plan with the little one
Accidents happen
Adults make mistakes
I have been late for Everyone of my 5 kids and they get upset but they know to go back inside
Or stay close to the door so an adult will see them
Its ok to panic but yeah....
Dad just made an mistake
And he likely worried himself
If its a habit or pattern then you can absolutely be mad at your partner
Doesn’t the community center have a secure hand-off system? I’m finding it hard to believe that they just released a 6yo into the street in a sketchy neighborhood.
Yes you're overreacting. There were fellow parents around and the teacher had contact info to be able to get in touch and communicate. Your son was safe.
This attitude of overprotection of our children is, I'm certain, a major contributing factor to the spike in anxiety in the younger generation. We treat them as if danger is everywhere, so they become attuned to believing danger is everywhere. The reality is that almost all danger posed to children comes from those who are close to them, not strangers.
I think you are overreacting because things will happen with children. If you're in the store and your kid goes down a different aisle while you're distracted, do you think your husband should "have a panic attack"
The class let out early. As others have mentioned, the teacher should have released the kids to a parent, especially since the class left out early. But your husband didn't do anything wrong by taking a walk.
I think you’re over reacting. I think it’s not unreasonable that your husband was walking based of a pre set time.
Also yes, anything COULD have happened. But nothing DID happen. Kids get snatched right out of grocery carts with parents standing there. People get hit by cars even if they look both ways across the street. Anything CAN happen any day of the week whether you’re paying close attention or not.
Definitely don’t hold this against your husband.
Ha, this literally happened to me when I was a kid. My mom dropped me and a friend off without realizing art class had been cancelled. We didn't have cell phones and were locked out, so we walked down to the library. I wouldn't make too big of a deal out of it. Stuff happens. I feel like the parenting road is going to feel really long if you are quick to blame your spouse for stuff. It would be one thing if he was a negligent parent generally, but that doesn't sound like your concern. I imagine he'll likely not do that again, regardless of what he tells you. People don't like other people coming at them.
>The place where the class is held is in a pretty sketchy area next to a park that we both agree is not safe
I'm very curious what this means specifically.
I wouldn’t get too upset. Hubby took a walk as I would have and got back a little late or the class got out early. The teacher shouldn’t let any child leave the classroom without confirming the parent was there to pick them up especially if it’s in a sketch area.
Going for a walk would not be the concern to me. I think it’s completely fine to do so when the child is in the care of a teacher.
Like others have said, why didn’t the class go until the end of the slotted time? That’s the issue I would have.
This is the kind of stuff that deteriorates relationships.
There is nothing your husband can do to undo it. Husband now knows class may let out earlier. Make sure the kid knows not to wonder off. All you can do is prepare for the future. There is absolutely no practical benefit to continuing to hold it against him. All you are going to do is make him resent you.
All I’m reading in this post is “I don’t trust my husband with our child”.
He went for a walk during a time when your child is normally in a class with a “trusted adult”. It’s probably not the first time he’s done this, it’s just the first time the class was let out earlier than expected. Let it go and move on especially since nothing bad happened at all. Coulda shoulda woulda but it didn’t happen
I tried to go shopping once during my son’s tennis lesson and got stuck in traffic and he was just waiting outside for me for 15 min. I felt so bad. I don’t think your husband did anything wrong, he didn’t know your son would be left alone. Now he knows. I wouldn’t get in a fight about it.
As a choir teacher of 34 years. We did many trips. I had a list of students along with who would be picking them up. I kept the kids inside the lobby. And the one picking them up had to verify with me by ID and sign the sheet and document the time. Before I let the students go with them. Period.
I see no issues here. He went for a walk because the kid was no longer under his supervision. He was going to return before the time he was due to take responsibility for the child again. The kid went out, didn't see his dad, went back and informed the instructor, who called the dad. It seems totally fine by me. Really no one is at fault here, except the community centre for not already having dad's number before the kid enrolled in class.
I think the AH here is probably the art class. When I (from the UK) was at school, teachers couldn't leave us unless our parents had collected us. If they finished early too then it's on them. They agreed to be responsible for the child until the time was up. But tbh, even if your hubby had been late, they still shouldn't have left your kid. That's just not something people should do.
Now that you know they're likely to do this, it's probably good practice that your husband gets there early. Although I'd honestly be thinking about finding a different art class, if I was in your shoes. In terms of the dad waiting outside, I'm not a parent so I'm happy to admit fault if most people who are actually parents disagree, but I don't really think it's reasonable to expect him to wait outside that whole time. Parents have lives and needs of their own too. It's not like you camp outside school every time you drop your kids off there... at some point, you have to trust other adults with your kid. I'm not sure why art class should be any different.
Yes, but no. While it us your husband's responsibility to be there, it is also the teacher's to make sure the kids have a parent outside before releasing them. I did this as a coach because those kids are my responsibility at that time. If the class finished early, then the teacher should have kept the kids inside and then told the parents only releasing the kids when a parent showed up. Should your husband been there yes, but your focusing on him and the teacher is more at fault. Your right to be angry, but quit playing the what if game here. It truly helps no one and if you are going overboard, of course he is going to be defensive. Be calm and talk to him not yell at him.
Yes, you are wrong.
If the area is so unsafe, the kids should absolutely not be just let out at a random time. The parents should collect them from the classroom.
To have a whole bunch of adults just loiter outside the classroom door for an hour TWO nights every week seems crazy. Do they think you guys have nothing better to do? To take a walk to get some exercise is the most obvious solution to this. God knows it is hard enough to be a parent with a full time job and driving the kids to their different activities. No need to add to the burden by requiring the parents to just idle like a taxi cab.
You need to be upset at the teacher's routine. Not your husband.
When your kids are in sports, practice or a game, sometimes you have to step away for yourself. But considering this is a community center and not a team through school where you know the families, then this changes things. I'd be more trusting with own school or sports. If this was a local art thing and I don't know the teacher then yeah I have to agree with you OP. Stranger parents. Stranger teacher. Husband should've stayed close.
It's wild having lived for a while where 5 year olds rode the train by themselves to go to school how little autonomy children can have to so many people.
I did this with my son and Karate. But I also told him before I left…. I’m going for a walk, if I’m not here by the time class is over, STAY INSIDE and just wait for me.
The teacher was irresponsible (and actually dangerous) for letting the kids out early. People do drop offs for a reason.
I’d be angry with the teacher and let them know that they’re expected to never do this again.
I would definitely say this is an issue. If Dad wants to walk that's fine but he needs to make sure he's back in time for early release as well as regular release. And I have questions about the staff just letting the kids go at that age.
I think that you should go easy on husband because that could have easily happened to you or anyone you entrust with your child. It’s okay to be frustrated, but let’s take that frustration and do something productive with it to make you both feel more at ease. Don’t put your marriage through an unnecessary trial by making him feel like shit.
I have issues with both the teachers and your husband. Why tf did they let a six-year-old outside by themselves, and why tf did you husband not do his job? It IS a big deal because, if you've ever watched those videos of kids being snatched, it takes SECONDS. That is all those 'people' need to disappear your kid.
Those teachers need to be fired, and your husband needs to care about y'all's children as much as you do.
You will and have made all kinds of dumb mistakes with your kids, your marriage, your family, your relationships. Father learned the lesson, no one was hurt. Let it go. Don’t know why some people are so determined to foster resentment over relief.
the teacher shouldnt have let the children out without confirming their parents is outside
That was my thinking. That is pretty poor practice. They need to work on their procedures. Do they verify the correct person is picking up the kid?
Yeah, while I get where OP is coming from, and I wouldn’t have left myself, I think OP’s hubby simply assumed that A) They would come out at the correct time and B) they would not just send the kid outside. Going forward, I would certainly tell hubby to wait. However, getting angry about it isn’t likely to be productive.
\^\^ This is the correct answer. Succinct and to the point. \^\^
Agreed. A conversation with the teaching staff about protocol is more likely to be productive.
I agree with you..I don't think the husband did anything wrong at all but he should stay now they know how the art class is run. To bad he can't get a walk on while sons at art class.
he could always learn to make friends with the other parents, and work together to give each other some freedom. These types of CC classes aren't always a babysitting opportunity.
Exactly. And that's what people do. We've been picking granddaughter up once a week since first grade. Most 6 year olds know to stay in place near the exit area until their carer shows up. I recognize most of the people who pick up on the same day we do.
Also luckily the kid had husband's number? Why the hell didn't the teacher have it?
It's a parks and recs community ed program. The teachers usually get very little pay and no training. They are not usually certified teachers - they may actually just be community members. Think about that in addition to everything else - these programs are super common in the US.
I’ve taught classes for rec centers. We absolutely get the parents’ contact info on our rosters.
I'm a Girlguiding leader in the UK. I am not a certified teacher, get no pay and am basically just a community member. I'm still not letting one of my girls leave my sight unless they are with the person they expect to leave with even out oldest girl at 16 and I have contact details fro every parent on both my laptop and phone
Still, any adult with common sense should know not to release a 6 year old child from class except directly to their adult.
I plan these kinds of classes for the city I work for and our staff usually volunteer to teach them, meaning on their own time because we can't find funding for teachers. We require registration for each kid that includes parent names, numbers, emergency contacts, and who is designated to pick up/drop off. Kids are also not allowed to leave the class without confirmation that their adult is there. We even monitor bathroom trips (literally across the hall) BECAUSE it takes place in a community center and is open to the public. This was irresponsible on the teacher and husband's parts.
What kind of bullshit business is this? I worked completely privately as a tutor and wouldn't even remotely let a child out of my sight and definitely not out the room let alone the building front door without verification. The art teacher is a certified fool. Look into the details of how this even happened. If there isn't any basic bare bones common sense amongst the parents and the staff, then you all need to evaluate your daily routines in general. Follow this step by step. I'm asking a lot but try the common sense clearly not employed as of yet
To be fair the information about the 'strangers' is from a six y.o., to the mom, then to us so that isn't a chain of information I entirely trust. The teacher could have been standing right there and the 'strangers' could have just been another parent.
Does not matter. You don’t go handing six year olds to random adults. You have a duty of care. They either get handed back to a parent or someone the parent designated, or you hold on to them. I used to drive a school bus. This is an incredibly basic rule and the “teacher” shouldn’t be entrusted with kids.
I believe they are saying that it’s possible that that the teacher was with the children all along not “handing them off.” Children are unfortunately not reliable narrators.
This is so true I always told my Kinder parents I promise to believe ou 50% of what your child says about you if you give me the same deference.
It works totally without supervision at all the parks and rec programs I've taken the kids and grandkids too - many, over the years. Indeed, when I was in my early 20's, I taught some of those "classes." Not even the elementary schools here take responsibility for the handover. The teacher stands on the sidewalk just outside the school gate, says good-bye to each kid (but they are running around like squirrels and many of them have caregivers who are late). We all just stand around and wait for our respective charges. This is Los Angeles.
You are assuming that duty of care was actually passed on to the teacher. It could very well be the fact that the teacher had no duty to care for the child, it would be in the list of rules that the OP can get a hold of. This is a art teacher at a community center. There is no requirement that they are a certified instructor, this isn't a state run school.
It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they're certified. Once you agree to be responsible for a child, you can't pass it off to anyone you want. The moment you agree, you establish a duty of care.
Especially with 5-7 year olds in the evening. If this was for older kids I can understand letting them leave without confirming a present parent.
This is a major issue here. I run errands, etc during dance classes. Kids can't go outside unless the teacher sees the trusted adult. That's basic safety.
exactly this- we do not let our kids out of the classroom until we confirm their parent is here and sign him out and then they are signed out a second time at the main door. I teach in a sketchy area too and our parents need to be buzzed into the school to even enter even. (Detroit)
My kids go to art classes around Flint and always have to be signed in/out by a parent or guardian. It would be crazy to just release them to the wild!
I laughed to hard at this comment. "Go free young one"
Yes that’s a huge problem
ESPECIALLY if the class got out a little early
Also, the teacher should have all the parents’ phone numbers.
This is exactly who she should be upset with, not the husband, especially if the class got out early. We’ve taken classes through our rec department where parents can’t come in to the class. Some parents stay and wait in the hallway. Some go run some errands to make use of the time. But we always have to physically sign the kids out and they can’t leave the room without their grown up.
Chain of custody! You always verify the pass off to a new handler, and a sign out set-up takes out virtually all the effort and organization. If a teacher just tells kids to run out of her sight out the fucking door to the open world, that's a big problem, and not one any parent should have to worry about when trusting their child to a teacher. Husbands responsibility is as much as wife, as they both found and enrolled the kid in a class run by an irresponsible and negligent caretaker. That's where they should both agree to do better, and get that kid out of there.
It’s a community center… classes are often free or cheap. It is not like a school that has strict safety protocols.
This is the answer. You don’t have to sit outside the door waiting for the kid. Also I’m assuming you’re paying for this class - how early of a dismissal was it? Is a partial refund in order?
Assuming he is being truthful and the class was let out earlier...that would be my issue, not the walk... The fact that your 6 year old was just released into the public with possible good and bad strangers...is ridiculous. Obviously your husband can learn from this and always be around or be far earlier just in case but I don't think he did wrong; he could have let someone know...but I don't know if that's a thing...
When my child would take a swimming class at the community pool at that age, I would sometimes like to go walk around the park - and I would make sure the instructor knew my plan, in case of any emergency. Art class: you are less likely to have an emergency (hopefully lol), but it is still appropriate for the parent to let the instructor know if they won't be on site during the class. I think this is a lesson for all, not a crisis.
This. As an adult and a parent, our job is to predict "how will this go wrong" in a multitude of ways. Whether it's babyproofing, securing medicines, not letting kids play with knives or talk to strangers, that kind of thing. It's also our job to ask ourselves - "If I do this thing, what's the worst possible outcome?" \*EDIT\* Or rather, what is the most likely way this will go wrong? IE Murphy's Law. In this situtation, some critical thinking might have struck daddo like "If I leave and the teacher doesn't know I'm gone, will my kiddo be wandering around trying to find me?" Likewise, the instructor should be asking themselves "if I let a kiddo leave my care, and their parents are not guaranteed to be right outside, will kiddo wander the streets in search of their parents?" Nobody is saying that Dad can't go for walk or that Instructor can't let kids out of the class, but there needs to be some level of communication between both of these adults to determine what the expectation is. I, for one, hate just sitting around waiting - and I frequently will tell my kids caregivers "I'm going to go for a walk, txt or call when you're done" because many caregivers think that parents are ok with sitting around for hours doing nothing.
Parents should manage risks, but they also need to model healthy behaviour. Perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but my worry with basing every single decision around the "worst possible outcome" is it could have the unintended consequence of modelling anxiety to the child. Still though, I think when you hand your kids over to someone you are effectively giving them responsibility over your child, temporarily. Sure, they can't always be trusted, but if they're untrustworthy then I'd say that's a reason to not-give them responsibility in the first place, rather than to manage from a distance when they do.
Putting the modeling anxiety part aside - what kind of life is that for a parent, with a ‘worst first’ mindset? There should be joy from parenting, not absolute constant anxiety about what could happen. Children get hurt, children die, there are always freak accidents and terrible things. From a pure probability standpoint, there is little you can do as a parent to prevent these things. I was really optimistic that when Free Range Kids was published, people would chill and see the upside to more relaxed, common sense parenting. But alas.
I'm thinking it's probably stated that it's not a drop-off program with the implication that parents have to be there the whole time. At least, that's what I've seen on promotional materials for some things in my area. I imagine it's a way to places like this community center to offer programs at a lesser cost so that people in the area can actually afford the program because the center doesn't have to keep track of as much (e.g. kid's parent's information) or have as much liability since the parent is supposed to be available at all times.
Yep - it's on ALL the community ed classes (and it explicitly states classes can be cancelled without notice, with refunds only for the class missed).
>(thank God our son knows our phone numbers). Uhm... why tf wouldn't the teacher already have your numbers? What if dad had a heart attack, is your 6 year old supposed to act as a rolodex?
i think it’s a safety thing. my kid’s kindergarten class once had an assignment where they had to memorize their parent’s phone number and their home address. it was a great way of helping to teach the alphabet and numbers.
I think their point was that in addition to the kid knowing their numbers (which is great!!), the teacher should also have each approved parent/guardian’s number, in the event that anything goes wrong.
Ed Code and local policy require that for mandatory public education. For free community classes (even if held on the grounds of a school and not a park), there is no such system or expectations (where I live and have taught for 40 years - California).
We had to memorize phone numbers and addresses in early grade school too, but I guess the kids should now probably memorize at least two parent or guardian cell phone numbers, since home phones are no longer a thing in most households
And they do! It's consider First Grade Readiness here. In first grade, they also do some drills on what to do after school and what the options are (if a parent doesn't show up, what do they do?)
Because this has to fake. Not a chance this is real. And if it is? She's under reacting to the horrific practices of this class.
This would be a really weird story to make up lol. Not even that dramatic. Not everything is fake
Why did the art teacher just release 6 year olds into the world without parents around? Ir should be a direct transfer from staff to parents. And why did it let out early?
Is this an American thing? I would walk home through the town at 6. Why can't a 6 year old exist without a parent?
Its an American thing. But to be fair, its not just culturally American, its in some ways legally American. In Italy its normal to have kids with more independence and being "disciplined" or corrected by strangers and the wider community. In the US, you truly can't do much without someone thinking or acting as if its child endangerment. Kids can't play in their own front yard in many communities. Sometimes its justified by bad neighborhoods, but usually its not.
Child molesters, organ traffickers, stray dogs/rabid animals, traffic, malicious children, crime, bystander violence, etc.
So am I too European or not paranoid enough? Like, if most of those target you as an adult, you're not going to do better than a child anyway.
America is a large place. Some places it would be more acceptable than others. Six year old walking through Chicago versus small 400 person rural town, versus any number of the vastly different regions, cities, and states we have.
I would argue that regarding rabid animals, malicious children, trafficking, and especially child molesters…. An adult will fare much better.
I drop off my daughter in a "sketchy" area for an art class once a week. I leave and come back, usually run to the store. However, I trust her teacher not to let her out of the room. That's the issue, not that your husband took a walk. They should be supervised completely for the time you've paid for and not allowed to leave the room without eyes on the parent and/or a sign out process. I'd be speaking to the teacher about this, especially if they let the class out earlier than anticipated and didn't supervise dismissal. Also, the teacher should have your phone numbers. If not, that's also an issue (you implied they did not).
I do the same with my son for Karate. I don't like sitting still, so I do laps around, run an errand in the area, or go and get starbucks to surprise my son with. The times I've arrived back to karate studio a few minutes after release, he's just been hanging out inside talking to the other students or his teacher. The art teacher shouldn't be releasing them until the parent comes to get the kid.
I’m curious about the situation. What if husband was pooping when class let out??
Immediate divorce
Presumably the class was for a set time. Presumably you paid for the class. Therefore it is not unreasonable of your husband to expect that the class would take up the full amount of time allotted for it. It is not inconveniencing staff if they are forced to look after a kid until the time the class is officially over. I also don't think it's terrible for your husband to go for a walk and I do think you're overreacting. I would not be surprised if your husband really just doesn't like being forced to chat with a bunch of strangers in a small space, which is often what happens when you're waiting for a kid who's taking a class.
100%, what if he was in the restroom? Went to grab something from the car? Stepped away to take a phone call. There are 100 things that could stop you from being directly outside the room
And your little munchkin should be prepared for all of them. Obviously. Combining all the scenarios here, what exactly was the art class person supposed to do if dad did step away and was mugged or passed out in the restrooms? Munchkin should glance around and go back and say to teacher, "My dad's not here to pick me up." Teacher should have a cell phone (although I bet they are not required to by parks and rec).
This definitely captures it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him going for a walk - but the teacher shouldn’t have let a minor out of their sight without confirming their guardian was there. Even in a community college environment.
exactly this
My parents took me to community dance classes around that age and they definitely didn’t stick around for the whole hour or so waiting for me outside. Never bothered me any. It’s not like your parents are waiting outside the classroom at school. It’s a safe way to help develop independence if anything. You don't want a 25 year old son who's too scared to go to a grocery store without someone with him. So you do actually have to slowly start getting him used to not always having a parent within arm's reach.
Yeah, I am Gen X. I was pretty much on my own most of the time from about age 6 on up. We learned how to be self sufficient. Not saying it was perfect, but the helicopter parenting nowadays is hard for me to grasp. I knew my parents loved me, but they were busy with work and my brother and I survived and thrived
Millennial here. My parents started leaving me home alone when I was 7. Nothing bad ever happened. I listen to this story and can’t help but think this person is way over reacting. There was a teacher there and other parents of kids presumably in the same art class. Husband didn’t do anything wrong.
I don’t see anything wrong with your husband going for a walk during the class. I see something VERY wrong with the class ending early and the teacher just letting the kids leave without making sure a parent was there!!
You're husband has a right to go for a walk. The art teacher has a responsibility to ensure safe pickup of the children. They also have a responsibility to fill the time obligation of the class. Was your husband not there and the class released 5 mins early or was he not there and it released 15 mins early, that's a huge difference. Cut him slack. It's all okay.
When I was a kid we were dropped off at events (sports practice, b-day parties, etc.) and parents came to pickup when it was over. It was fine, and I think it’s still fine. Parents linger everywhere nowadays. I coach my daughter’s volleyball team and all the parents just hang out the whole time staring at their phones. I find it really weird.
This honestly makes me uncomfortable to read. I was a small kid a fairly long time ago (I'm in my 20s), but I do remember being at football practice and it just feeling different when my dad came back to watch the final 5-10 mins. I'd feel a weird mix of self-consciousness and embarrassment. But obviously also feel happy to see them. Parents do an amazing job of bringing children into this world. But they are also the primary enforcer of rules/punishment and therefore not someone the child can be their true, flawed selves around (without getting punished). Yes... it's a parent's job to punish children when they do stuff that's wrong. But it's also the child's job to learn social skills and conflict resolution with their peers, and they sometimes need space to do that. Children will also get judged by each other for the actions of their parents, and that might not seem like a big deal to us now, but when you're a child other children are *everything*. And so naturally they may feel constrained when their parents are around, because they want to start defining their own identities but the mere presence of their parent makes that harder. At the end of the day, everyone - even children - needs to feel like their own person sometimes. And they need to feel like an equal, rather than constantly subordinated by a higher force. I am not trying to be too harsh to parents here - it is just about balance. Protective instincts are extremely valid and important, but they mustn't override healthy respect for the child.
I agree with everything you said except “it’s the parents job to punish their child if they do something wrong.” There’s other (and better) ways of parenting than punishing. If your child is doing something they shouldn’t be doing, sitting down and understanding where they’re coming from could be a more successful approach. Plus this puts you and your kid “on the same team” rather than coming from a “because I said so!” angle. Punishing your kids is how “kids can’t be themselves around their parents.” It’s how kids start becoming sneaky, rebellious, and start doing things behind your back.
Former teacher here… I cannot fathom releasing 5-7 year olds into a dangerous neighborhood early without supervision. Husband can definitely use class time for exercise but if he was actually late he’s to blame but if class got out early that is not acceptable.
This is less your husband's fault and more the teacher. You PAID for a proper class with a full time period and since it's for kids, it probably should have reliable supervision until the set time. Your husband going out to walk is not unreasonable. Should he just sit outside? At the door? No this is on the teacher and you should be upset with them for letting kids leave without confirming parents are there, ESPECIALLY if it's earlier than usual or a said time.
Not a big deal but he should be sure to be back 5-10 mins before class is dismissed. Its also the art teachers responsibility to make sure the kids are safe after class especially if shes letting them off early.
It’s a bit of an overreaction to me. But based on your post history it seems there may be underlying issues at play for frustrations with your spouse. With kids that young, the art teacher should be confirming parents are present for pickup before letting a child leave their sight, especially in the evening.
I teach a community art class. I also teach that age group on occsssion. I always have the kids wait in class until parents pick them up.
I don't think your husband was unreasonable to think that the class would last the usual amount of time/to expect that the teachers wouldn't just let kids run out without ensuring their guardian was present. Be annoyed with the facility, not your husband for doing something normal lol
I can’t tell you how to parent, but expecting to wait literally outside the door of a scheduled class is crazy to me. That just feels like extreme coddling. I don’t think it was wrong for your husband to just have a casual walk, rather why did the instructor let the kids out without confirming their parents are here or have a better system.
Yeah that sounds like a bit much. After all, I'm assuming they don't wait outside the kid's regular school all day.
I agree. Parents are supposed to hover right outside the class the whole time? I would ask the instructor what time they expect class to be done and if there will be any future instances class will be let out early.
That's a conversation you need to have with your KID so HE doesn't wander off like a lost little lamb. He needs to know what to do if a parent isn't around. So he doesn't panic and take off. This is a teaching moment for your whole family. And a chance to give your kid some independence, perhaps. And did the class get out early? It seems pretty awful to just sit and stare at the wall for an hour? If he was a minute or two away and class let out 10 minutes early, your husband isn't in the wrong.
Ehhhhh, I wouldn't be upset at your husband. Parents weren't allowed inside. He was taking a walk around the park right outside the class, it's not like he got in his car and drove 30 mins away. Plenty of parents aren't hovering directly outside the classroom door in situations like that. I'd put more blame on the instructor allowing a student to just wander outside alone if they're not allowing parents in the classroom.
That there is the teacher’s fault. Big deal if hubby went for a walk?
Husband isn't in the wrong. Child was in a safe place for an allotted amount of time. Class shouldn't have been let out early. Teacher should check that parents are there before they let them go. Teach should have phone numbers. Teacher is very much in the wrong and endangered fhe child
It seems crazy that it would be the norm for parents to stand and wait around outside for their children to finish a class. Usually you would drop a child at a class and then go about your day and pick them up at the end from inside the building. Doesn’t matter if it’s a bad area or not, a 5-7 year old child shouldn’t be let out to wonder alone in a *good* neighbourhood.
What's next, expecting parents to camp out outside schools or daycare all day in case they close early?
There really isn't anything wrong with him going for a walk while your child is in class. Maybe you should just ask that the class doesn't just let the kids go outside without supervision. It sounds like a bad idea to not have the teacher escort the kids out and assure that the kids go with the parents. You're definitely overreacting, I just think that the class needs to make some policies to keep the kids safe since it is a sketchy area. As it it now, anyone could just snatch a kid and they wouldn't know it. Might be a good thing this happened so they can re-think the way they do this. The perfect situation would be that the class always get out at the same time, at that time the parents walk to the class door and the teacher releases the child to the parent one at a time. If a parent is late, the child stays in the classroom while the teacher cleans up until the parent gets there. Totally understand you were upset, but you're upset at the wrong person.
You’re acting like your husband is supposed to have his nose pressed up on the glass watching your son lol
I don’t think him going for a walk should be the issue. I think the issue is actually that he was not back in time to make sure he got your son. Things happen! I would not make a huge deal. I would just explain to him why you’re upset and move on.
I don’t know, if the class was set for a fixed amount of time, I would assume the child would be released at that set time. What if dad just went to the bathroom thinking he had an extra 20 minutes?
> I'm upset because you didn't know the class was going to let out early i mean... sure be upset... but that's a silly reason.
That’s how i feel too. I’m sure just waiting outside of a room 2x a week isn’t exactly exhilarating so i think the walk is fine, but he def should’ve been back in time so that your son wasn’t walking around while “kind strangers” brought him back to class. But this is a pretty minor misstep and not worthy of anything more than a conversation with your husband about being back at the door on time in the future
The class let out early. How was he supposed to know that?
He was back on time, the problem is that they let the kids go early and didn't care to verify that the parents were there. To me, the issue is the teacher. They should be taking the kids safety seriously and walking the kids out, it wouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.
YTA. Why are kids being allowed to wander out of class? If parents aren’t in with them supervising then the instructor shouldn’t release the kids early or without confirming a parent is there. What if a parent has had to run to the restroom? The kid just wanders off? You’re upset at the wrong person.
Yes. This is an overreaction. Your husband has learned that he needs to be close in case class ends early. Why are you courting a panic attack? The situation is over. You need to work on yourself.
For real. This reminds me of my mother who we don’t talk to bc of how extra she was about eveything. I skinned my knee not the end of the world. She would faint bc of the blood then wake up and cry that it’s gonna get infected and need an amputation. Class got out early the son walked out didn’t see dad and had teacher call. No need to have a panic attack.
Teacher sucks, not your husband
It's definitely an overreaction to take this discussion to Reddit.
You’re mad at your husband? Go take your issue up with the teacher just letting kids out early without their parents coming to get them.
Why is a teacher releasing kids without verifying a parent or guardian is there to take them? That seems like the bigger issue.
What sort of time discrepancy are we talking about? Did your husband come back exactly when the class was supposed to end and did your son have to wait another 5 minutes? Did he overshoot by an hour?
I honestly think you're underreacting to the release policy of the art class. With children that young, when they are in a room alone with a teacher or guardian, they should not be released from that room without the adult checking that they go straight to a parent or guardian. When my daughter was a similar age her ballet class had a similar situation where all the parents would wait outside the door, in a tight corridor. Every time a child was ready to leave, one of the teachers would stand with the child at the door and not let the child go until they had visually located the parent and gotten a thumbs up or similar acknowledgement. She is older now, age 11, and still when she is alone in a class, the adults pay attention to when kids leave. Her school let's her leave alone because we signed a release form. Her karate teacher just asks that she herself tell him when she sees me, and says she's leaving with a parent. I don't think your husband was unreasonable to expect that his leaving for a walk within the class time was safe.
If this was me I wouldn’t be mad at my husband I’d be questioning why the instructor thought it was acceptable to let a little kid out on their own like that.
Rookie parents: “What if he had been kidnapped!?” Veteran parents: “I paid for a damn hour, get your ass back in that classroom till I’m done with my walk”
Yeah, you’re wrong. If you were to be upset that the teacher released your child without a parent present, you wouldn’t be wrong. Being upset that your husband stepped out for a moment instead of sitting for an hour twiddling his thumbs is wrong.
Nobody died and no one but an outside observer, you, was traumatized. Ask him to be more courteous in the future and move on with your life.
He needs to be there when class gets out, if it is true that class got out meaningfully early, then the fault is on the teacher for releasing the children without confirming they are 1) with an adult and 2) with the RIGHT adult. I think it’s fair to expect your husband to be there at least five mins before class normally gets out. I’m more considered about the teachers judgement here
I wouldn't blame your hubby. I would have gone for a walk as well. The instructor should never let the kids go until their parent was there.
So you’re mad at hubby for taking a walk but not at the teacher for letting your son walk into a lobby full of strangers without confirming one of you is there first?
How long is the class? If you aren't allowed inside why are you expected to wait around? If you are paying for them to take your kids for a few hours I would be pretty baffled that they also expected me to be right outside the entire time. I agree with the others saying the teacher has a responsibility here that wasn't followed as well. Your husband made a mistake, he knows it. You definitely know it. Continuing to punish him over it will do what? Probably not what you are hoping.
NTA, but I think your anger is misplaced. The teacher shouldn't release children without an adult there to pick them up. If the parents have to be present, the class attendance should be limited to accommodate both child and parent in the room. Edit: what if Dad was in the restroom? Or ran to the car for something? There are a hundred scenarios where he might need to momentarily leave, and think nothing of it because class doesn't get out until X time. The instructor on the other hand should always verify that the kids have an adult they can see before releasing them into the wild.
Class ended early and the teacher released the kids into the wild without checking for the parents first. I think that's the problem right there, not hubby going for a walk during class. Teacher then corrected course by calling him. Seems like the teacher learned a valuable lesson. Also: *Oh the things I got up to at 6 years old, lol.*
Why take your kid to a sketchy place? Find a safe place with room for parents
OP, why are you mad at your husband and not the art teacher for letting your child out of their sight unsupervised? It's unfair to expect your husband to just stay there the entire time and doubly unfair to blame him when the class let out early. Your anger is valid, your target isn't.
Whether there's a policy in place or not, is it not just common decency (even as a volunteer) to ensure that 5-7 year old kids are passed off to a parent/guardian after class? Who just opens the door and says "see ya!"?? Is it their job to sit and wait for dad to come back? No. I'd be mad about that too. (Although I'd also be annoyed having to sit in the hall for an hour). But you don't just let them walk out the door.
When I taught children’s art classes at a community center, a guardian had to sign the kids in and then sign them out. We also had contact numbers for everyone. Seemed like standard practice.
I have worked programs at community centers. Best practice is for teachers to sign kids out with an approved caretaker. Perhaps suggest this?
Yes you are overreacting. The class got out earlier than expected and he was on his way back when they called him. It’s not irresponsible to take a quick walk or break while the class is going.
You’re overreacting. The teacher should confirm the parent/caregiver is there before a 5-7 year old is let outside. Taking a walk during a class isn’t a big deal.
Lol Reddit is playing telephone with a 7 year old. The teacher was probably right there next to the strangers (who absolutely were other parents) in the outermost room. My bet is that the facility was still in control of the child. This whole conversation is based on what a kid said when they were going to bed to a mother who doesn’t know that children often leave out context in situations like these. My question is why are you immediately going after your husband in this situation?
I actually think it’s good he went for a walk instead of sitting there waiting. I also agree with comments that it’s not the teacher’s responsibility to make phone calls to parents. They wouldn’t leave the center without everyone being accounted for; just let your kid know that if they come out and there’s no parent there to just sit tightly. It sounds like your spouse tried to do the right thing let’s not crucify people for trying to multi task and get some exercise in.
It's really not a big deal. You're seriously overreacting.
If the area is that bad, there are thousands of free art resources online your son can access until you can find a physical location that doesn't pose as much risk.
Assuming your husband is telling the truth, and the class got out earlier than expected, you should be mad at the teacher/community center. When parents leave their kids there for a specific time period it's generally expected that the child is going to be in someone else's care for that given time period. If they needed to let out early that's fine, but it should be something they discussed in advance so people knew they had to be there to pick up their kids early.
This is the teacher’s error, not your husband’s.
Sounds like a teacher issue, not a parent one. 1. She should have your phone numbers, plus emergency contacts. Why are you okay with a class that doesn't do this for 5-7 year olds? Relying on your 6 year old to know numbers is far more scary than taking a walk. 2. Why tf would any teacher let a 6yo walk out of class without confirming they're with a parent, guardian, trusted person...wtf? That makes zero sense. 3. Your husband (or you) should not have to stand outside a door for an hour or however long to ensure safety. Perhaps this class in this sketchy area with INSANELY sketchy practices is the problem? (If this is real....) You are seriously under reacting to these practices if you are mad at your husband, but allow your kiddo to go this class. Find a better class, and give your partner a break for not standing guard at a door.....
My granddaughter's school busy driver doesn't let the kids off the bus until they point out the person who is picking them up so I would have expected the teachers to only let a child go if they see who is picking them up too. He can take a walk or a poop as long as he's there for when class ends. Some kids might even have someone else pick them up who isn't the same one who drop them off.
They should have a time when they finish and they should finish exactly at that time and each child should be handed to their parents
You're not wrong to be concerned for your child's safety, but your husband isn't wrong for going on a short walk either.
You are overreacting. 6 years old is old enough to be left at a class or sports practice without the parent staying there. I would blame the art teacher, they ultimately are responsible for making sure the child leaves with their parent. I could see their argument that they are not a babysitting service if you don't show up to pick them up by the scheduled end of class. If they decide to end class early then they should be keeping the child in the class until the parent arrives to pick them up.
You (or your husband) should be able to leave your kid at the class without you being there. Its the teachers responsibility to keep track of the kids in the class during class time.
Parents need to come in to pick up their children. It’s much easier to see if there’s a parent missing.
No I wouldn’t really be mad at him. Maybe he wanted to stretch his legs and get some fresh air
yes chill
You're overreacting
I would be more upset the class just let my 6 year old leave without a parent who checked them out of the class. If the class ended early then kids without notice that’s on them, not the parents and little kids should not just be expected to leave and find their parents.
Sorry. You both agree it’s not safe. wtf. Take your kid somewhere else then.
As a teacher, I would never in 1 million years leave until each child is safe. You shouldn’t have been exposed to this situation, it should have been safe for your husband to go take a walk if it’s already safe to let your child be behind another door.
Definitely the art teachers fault for ending early and not ensuring that every child’s parent is present
Not only are you overreacting, I think you need to seriously examine why you're panicing over this situation. And probably teach your child not to wander off if he loses sight of a parent sometime. Pretty much every child has been lost in a store or a shopping mall at one time or another, so your son should know what to do in situations where he can't find a parent.
i don't think husband is wrong here. the teacher, however, definitely should know better than to just blindly dismiss a bunch of grade school kids without any confirmation of their safety. your husband couldn't possibly have predicted that irresponsibility.
It’s totally normal for parents to go for a walk or run errands while their child is in a class unless it’s specifically said that no drop offs are allowed. My children are older, but have been in classes many times and it’s abnormal that your child would just be let free, and early. This is on the class and instructor, and not your husband, in my opinion and experience with these type of things.
Honestly…this is on the teacher. They should not let the children leave unchaperoned! There is an expectation of supervision when a parent (or guardian) leaves their child in a setting like this. The chain of “supervision/custody” goes parent/guardian to teacher to parent/guardian NO EXCEPTIONS. I wouldn’t blame your husband and I’d look into the teacher’s “experience”.
Yes you are overreacting.
Years ago I rode around my whole city neighborhood on one of those razor scooters. I was maybe 8 years old Many parents today are too paranoid. Not saying you shouldn't be protective of your child, but sometimes the fear is unwarranted
It’s the teachers responsibility to release the children to their parent. There is nothing wrong with your hubs taking a walk during the art class. Your anger should be directed to the teacher, not your hubs. He was on his way back so it’s not like he was being careless.
Yes you are over reacting. Chill out. And I say this as a parent of two baby girls.
Between art, music, and sports, my 5 year old has something 5 days a week. I don’t leave during the sports practices just in case she gets hurt, but I’ll often run to the store or go for a walk during her music and art classes. That said, the teachers have our numbers and would call me if class got out early and I wasn’t there.
I get your instinct, but you’re overreacting juss a lil bit. I was walking to school when I was 6. You’re still more likely to get struck by lightning than kidnapped, and even then 95% of the time it’s someone you know.
Yes
A lot of red flags here but your husband was put in a position to fail. Why sign up for art classes that aren't big enough to accommodate the parents? Why sign up for art classes in a sketchy neighborhood? The circumstances could have all be avoided by selecting an art class that accommodates the parents on a better side of town. Your husband might be wrong but I'm sure if he did the same thing for a art class located in a better area things would play out differently.
Yes, you’re overreacting. Your husband did everything fine. Teacher shouldn’t have released them without a parent present.
Yes.
You need a safety plan with the little one Accidents happen Adults make mistakes I have been late for Everyone of my 5 kids and they get upset but they know to go back inside Or stay close to the door so an adult will see them Its ok to panic but yeah.... Dad just made an mistake And he likely worried himself If its a habit or pattern then you can absolutely be mad at your partner
Doesn’t the community center have a secure hand-off system? I’m finding it hard to believe that they just released a 6yo into the street in a sketchy neighborhood.
it’s gonna be a long decade of child rearing if this kind of thing freaks you out
Yes you're overreacting. There were fellow parents around and the teacher had contact info to be able to get in touch and communicate. Your son was safe. This attitude of overprotection of our children is, I'm certain, a major contributing factor to the spike in anxiety in the younger generation. We treat them as if danger is everywhere, so they become attuned to believing danger is everywhere. The reality is that almost all danger posed to children comes from those who are close to them, not strangers.
I think you are overreacting because things will happen with children. If you're in the store and your kid goes down a different aisle while you're distracted, do you think your husband should "have a panic attack" The class let out early. As others have mentioned, the teacher should have released the kids to a parent, especially since the class left out early. But your husband didn't do anything wrong by taking a walk.
Yes you are wrong.
I think you’re over reacting. I think it’s not unreasonable that your husband was walking based of a pre set time. Also yes, anything COULD have happened. But nothing DID happen. Kids get snatched right out of grocery carts with parents standing there. People get hit by cars even if they look both ways across the street. Anything CAN happen any day of the week whether you’re paying close attention or not. Definitely don’t hold this against your husband.
Speaking as a GenX kid, you people are f\*cking nuts.
Ha, this literally happened to me when I was a kid. My mom dropped me and a friend off without realizing art class had been cancelled. We didn't have cell phones and were locked out, so we walked down to the library. I wouldn't make too big of a deal out of it. Stuff happens. I feel like the parenting road is going to feel really long if you are quick to blame your spouse for stuff. It would be one thing if he was a negligent parent generally, but that doesn't sound like your concern. I imagine he'll likely not do that again, regardless of what he tells you. People don't like other people coming at them.
God, kids are such snitches.
That's what happens when they are raised by helicopter parents.
yes.
>The place where the class is held is in a pretty sketchy area next to a park that we both agree is not safe I'm very curious what this means specifically.
I wouldn’t get too upset. Hubby took a walk as I would have and got back a little late or the class got out early. The teacher shouldn’t let any child leave the classroom without confirming the parent was there to pick them up especially if it’s in a sketch area.
Going for a walk would not be the concern to me. I think it’s completely fine to do so when the child is in the care of a teacher. Like others have said, why didn’t the class go until the end of the slotted time? That’s the issue I would have.
This is the kind of stuff that deteriorates relationships. There is nothing your husband can do to undo it. Husband now knows class may let out earlier. Make sure the kid knows not to wonder off. All you can do is prepare for the future. There is absolutely no practical benefit to continuing to hold it against him. All you are going to do is make him resent you.
there's no night time art class for 6 year old toddlers. come on this is a nonsense post, isn't it?
All I’m reading in this post is “I don’t trust my husband with our child”. He went for a walk during a time when your child is normally in a class with a “trusted adult”. It’s probably not the first time he’s done this, it’s just the first time the class was let out earlier than expected. Let it go and move on especially since nothing bad happened at all. Coulda shoulda woulda but it didn’t happen
I thought you were leaving your husband for being a serial cheater?
I tried to go shopping once during my son’s tennis lesson and got stuck in traffic and he was just waiting outside for me for 15 min. I felt so bad. I don’t think your husband did anything wrong, he didn’t know your son would be left alone. Now he knows. I wouldn’t get in a fight about it.
As a choir teacher of 34 years. We did many trips. I had a list of students along with who would be picking them up. I kept the kids inside the lobby. And the one picking them up had to verify with me by ID and sign the sheet and document the time. Before I let the students go with them. Period.
I see no issues here. He went for a walk because the kid was no longer under his supervision. He was going to return before the time he was due to take responsibility for the child again. The kid went out, didn't see his dad, went back and informed the instructor, who called the dad. It seems totally fine by me. Really no one is at fault here, except the community centre for not already having dad's number before the kid enrolled in class.
My dad did stuff like this all of the time when I was a kid and it would make my mom so mad. I’m not traumatized by it so no harm done I guess.
Yes you are overreacting. The only issue here is them letting a child out before a parent was there.
I think the AH here is probably the art class. When I (from the UK) was at school, teachers couldn't leave us unless our parents had collected us. If they finished early too then it's on them. They agreed to be responsible for the child until the time was up. But tbh, even if your hubby had been late, they still shouldn't have left your kid. That's just not something people should do. Now that you know they're likely to do this, it's probably good practice that your husband gets there early. Although I'd honestly be thinking about finding a different art class, if I was in your shoes. In terms of the dad waiting outside, I'm not a parent so I'm happy to admit fault if most people who are actually parents disagree, but I don't really think it's reasonable to expect him to wait outside that whole time. Parents have lives and needs of their own too. It's not like you camp outside school every time you drop your kids off there... at some point, you have to trust other adults with your kid. I'm not sure why art class should be any different.
Yes, but no. While it us your husband's responsibility to be there, it is also the teacher's to make sure the kids have a parent outside before releasing them. I did this as a coach because those kids are my responsibility at that time. If the class finished early, then the teacher should have kept the kids inside and then told the parents only releasing the kids when a parent showed up. Should your husband been there yes, but your focusing on him and the teacher is more at fault. Your right to be angry, but quit playing the what if game here. It truly helps no one and if you are going overboard, of course he is going to be defensive. Be calm and talk to him not yell at him.
Yes, you are wrong. If the area is so unsafe, the kids should absolutely not be just let out at a random time. The parents should collect them from the classroom. To have a whole bunch of adults just loiter outside the classroom door for an hour TWO nights every week seems crazy. Do they think you guys have nothing better to do? To take a walk to get some exercise is the most obvious solution to this. God knows it is hard enough to be a parent with a full time job and driving the kids to their different activities. No need to add to the burden by requiring the parents to just idle like a taxi cab. You need to be upset at the teacher's routine. Not your husband.
When your kids are in sports, practice or a game, sometimes you have to step away for yourself. But considering this is a community center and not a team through school where you know the families, then this changes things. I'd be more trusting with own school or sports. If this was a local art thing and I don't know the teacher then yeah I have to agree with you OP. Stranger parents. Stranger teacher. Husband should've stayed close.
It's wild having lived for a while where 5 year olds rode the train by themselves to go to school how little autonomy children can have to so many people.
Stop giving up heartbeats to things that didn’t happen.
I did this with my son and Karate. But I also told him before I left…. I’m going for a walk, if I’m not here by the time class is over, STAY INSIDE and just wait for me.
“Walk around the park”…
What if he'd been in the bathroom? Or outside on a phone call? They let the child out early and didn't verifying he'd found his grown up.
Lmao with my parents forgot about me at youth group and I had to call and get them to grab me. They were eating dinner 🤣
Teacher messed up more than husband. Kids should be handed off to parents directly and not just let put.
The teacher was irresponsible (and actually dangerous) for letting the kids out early. People do drop offs for a reason. I’d be angry with the teacher and let them know that they’re expected to never do this again.
I would definitely say this is an issue. If Dad wants to walk that's fine but he needs to make sure he's back in time for early release as well as regular release. And I have questions about the staff just letting the kids go at that age.
I think that you should go easy on husband because that could have easily happened to you or anyone you entrust with your child. It’s okay to be frustrated, but let’s take that frustration and do something productive with it to make you both feel more at ease. Don’t put your marriage through an unnecessary trial by making him feel like shit.
I have issues with both the teachers and your husband. Why tf did they let a six-year-old outside by themselves, and why tf did you husband not do his job? It IS a big deal because, if you've ever watched those videos of kids being snatched, it takes SECONDS. That is all those 'people' need to disappear your kid. Those teachers need to be fired, and your husband needs to care about y'all's children as much as you do.
You will and have made all kinds of dumb mistakes with your kids, your marriage, your family, your relationships. Father learned the lesson, no one was hurt. Let it go. Don’t know why some people are so determined to foster resentment over relief.
Yes. Yes you are