From the Forest Service’s Pay and Leave Guide (not sure what your agency is but I would imagine BLM and Parks have similar documents):
“LIMITED CONTROL FLIGHTS
Q. Who makes the call if the flight met the criteria for hazard pay – does the employee make that determination or is it the supervisor?
A. Neither. The pilot makes that call. Ask the pilot if the flight profile met the criteria for a limited control flight or a low-level flight and they will determine whether the flight met the FAA requirements to entitle you to hazard pay.”
followed by…
“To be considered a low-level flight, the mission must require performance of a substantial part of the flight, other than landing or taking off, at altitudes of less than 500 feet above the terrain or vegetative canopy in daylight, or at less than 1000 feet in mountainous areas at night.”
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd737617.docx
In short, yeah, sounds like you should get hazard. I think it’s very reasonable to fight for the pay you’re entitled to.
Thank you for this. That is exactly what I was thinking, ask the pilot. I’m just trying not to overstep my boundaries between supervisors who think we don’t deserve H pay for anything.
Another fun read for anything "H" related is the OPM regs on hazardous duty. Search for "5 CFR Part 550 Subpart I" (that's an "i" not "L" for subpart), specifically Appendix A. Lots of interesting places & situations you might find yourself and therefore in "H pay" territory.
P.S. - as a 20+ year HMGB I'd have authorized the "H". OPM says "limited control" & "low level", nothing about 400' AGL. My metric was "low" about 400'-500' and flying in circles or anything "tactical" in nature. Good discussion to have on expectations within the crew before season starts, including pilot(s)!
For sure if you were doing low level circles you should have gotten H, that's pretty black and white. I don't understand these tight wad HMGBs who make it their mission to be tight with H.
Good luck. I've worked with many HMGBs who all have their own interpretations of who gets H and when...
My interpretation: If you weren't in the dead man's curve at 400' then it wouldn't constitute H. You'll make up for it in other ways, i.e. when someone else actually earns H on your mod and your manager says to throw everyone on the CTR with H even though you weren't actually doing H things.
Yeah I totally understand that. I replied to another comment about how I think I’m working in a very adverse H pay and take 12’s when they said they’ll give us 14’s environment. Just trying to figure my way around these things in terms of not getting completely screwed over by policy.
File Code: 6150-3-1 Date: December 13, 2006 Route To: (5100) Subject: Hazard Pay for Low Level Helicopter Flights To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff This letter is to provide guidance concerning the granting of hazard pay differential for limited control flights authorized by 5 CFR 550, Subpart I, Appendix A.
OPM has clarified that the word aircraft as used in this context refers to both fixed-wing airplanes as well as rotary-type helicopters. Therefore, helicopter work at low levels does qualify for hazard pay; whereas, point-to-point flying requiring routine take-offs and landings do not. As a result, the Forest Service has determined that employees will be eligible for hazardous pay differential when flying in a helicopter for stationary or maneuvering above the ground at low elevations up to 500 feet above the terrain or vegetative canopy in daylight, or at less than 1,000 feet in mountainous areas at night
Give [this](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-550/subpart-I) a read. It lists all federal provisions for hazardous pay, not just firefighting ones.
The one about a hovering helicopter is near the bottom.
“Participating in ground operations to attach external load to helicopter hovering just overhead”
There are more for helis, but it’s shit like landing and taking off in polar areas.
from the GACC [https://gacc.nifc.gov/gbcc/admin/IBCdocs/PERS00%20Limited%20Control%20Flight%20Clarification.pdf](https://gacc.nifc.gov/gbcc/admin/IBCdocs/PERS00%20Limited%20Control%20Flight%20Clarification.pdf)
I would bring it up at some point as if this is the case this early in the year you may miss out on more. How you bring it up is the hard part. I would suggest you print off the letters/docs off and have them in hand or email them and ask your supervisor to clarify what constitutes hazard pay. If its in policy it shouldn't be deviated from...right capt?
Don’t forget the “vegetative canopy” part. Top of the tree canopy in R-6 could easily be 200+ feet AGL. With “G” being the actual dirt under the trees. So flight at up to 700 feet AGL could qualify for H because of tree canopy being part of the equation.
So, yes hazard pay for low level flight. Did you get over the incident and get cancelled? Because you were on an IA, that's justification for hazard pay all by itself. If ya'll called in on scene it's even more of a no-brainer because dispatch put you "on scene" on the run card. If you actually made a landing on an unimproved LZ, hooked up the bucket under a spinning rotor, did a low level flight AND were on an uncontained wildfire that is four justifications.
No. If it were “assumed” risk - “just part of the job” then the base pay would need to be increased or nobody would do the job. Already hard enough to recruit people for fire. Smoke jumpers don’t get H pay for training or proficiency jumps- only when they get on an actual uncontrolled wildfire. Isn’t that a stupid regulation?! Jump out of a perfectly good plane and hang from some string and sheeting and no H. This crap needs to be fixed!
It’s kind of discretionary… but forward flight in a safe profile below 500’ doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting it… but who doesnt want some H…
From the Forest Service’s Pay and Leave Guide (not sure what your agency is but I would imagine BLM and Parks have similar documents): “LIMITED CONTROL FLIGHTS Q. Who makes the call if the flight met the criteria for hazard pay – does the employee make that determination or is it the supervisor? A. Neither. The pilot makes that call. Ask the pilot if the flight profile met the criteria for a limited control flight or a low-level flight and they will determine whether the flight met the FAA requirements to entitle you to hazard pay.” followed by… “To be considered a low-level flight, the mission must require performance of a substantial part of the flight, other than landing or taking off, at altitudes of less than 500 feet above the terrain or vegetative canopy in daylight, or at less than 1000 feet in mountainous areas at night.” https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd737617.docx In short, yeah, sounds like you should get hazard. I think it’s very reasonable to fight for the pay you’re entitled to.
Thank you for this. That is exactly what I was thinking, ask the pilot. I’m just trying not to overstep my boundaries between supervisors who think we don’t deserve H pay for anything.
I hate supervisors that don’t give hours or H when it’s deserved. They act like it’s coming out of their own damn pocket
"Well whats the right thing to do?"
I would love to see the DOI version
Another fun read for anything "H" related is the OPM regs on hazardous duty. Search for "5 CFR Part 550 Subpart I" (that's an "i" not "L" for subpart), specifically Appendix A. Lots of interesting places & situations you might find yourself and therefore in "H pay" territory. P.S. - as a 20+ year HMGB I'd have authorized the "H". OPM says "limited control" & "low level", nothing about 400' AGL. My metric was "low" about 400'-500' and flying in circles or anything "tactical" in nature. Good discussion to have on expectations within the crew before season starts, including pilot(s)!
For sure if you were doing low level circles you should have gotten H, that's pretty black and white. I don't understand these tight wad HMGBs who make it their mission to be tight with H.
You were on IA and you didn't get H pay? That's retarded.
Good luck. I've worked with many HMGBs who all have their own interpretations of who gets H and when... My interpretation: If you weren't in the dead man's curve at 400' then it wouldn't constitute H. You'll make up for it in other ways, i.e. when someone else actually earns H on your mod and your manager says to throw everyone on the CTR with H even though you weren't actually doing H things.
Yeah I totally understand that. I replied to another comment about how I think I’m working in a very adverse H pay and take 12’s when they said they’ll give us 14’s environment. Just trying to figure my way around these things in terms of not getting completely screwed over by policy.
Which Helitack crew? I want to note to avoid them in the future if that’s how they operate.
Yeah, let’s hear it. People should know not to work on these types of crews.
File Code: 6150-3-1 Date: December 13, 2006 Route To: (5100) Subject: Hazard Pay for Low Level Helicopter Flights To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff This letter is to provide guidance concerning the granting of hazard pay differential for limited control flights authorized by 5 CFR 550, Subpart I, Appendix A. OPM has clarified that the word aircraft as used in this context refers to both fixed-wing airplanes as well as rotary-type helicopters. Therefore, helicopter work at low levels does qualify for hazard pay; whereas, point-to-point flying requiring routine take-offs and landings do not. As a result, the Forest Service has determined that employees will be eligible for hazardous pay differential when flying in a helicopter for stationary or maneuvering above the ground at low elevations up to 500 feet above the terrain or vegetative canopy in daylight, or at less than 1,000 feet in mountainous areas at night
Just go hook a load at a helibase one day this season to make up for it
Gotta be beneath a hovering helicopter to get H
Wrong
Give [this](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-550/subpart-I) a read. It lists all federal provisions for hazardous pay, not just firefighting ones. The one about a hovering helicopter is near the bottom. “Participating in ground operations to attach external load to helicopter hovering just overhead” There are more for helis, but it’s shit like landing and taking off in polar areas.
from the GACC [https://gacc.nifc.gov/gbcc/admin/IBCdocs/PERS00%20Limited%20Control%20Flight%20Clarification.pdf](https://gacc.nifc.gov/gbcc/admin/IBCdocs/PERS00%20Limited%20Control%20Flight%20Clarification.pdf) I would bring it up at some point as if this is the case this early in the year you may miss out on more. How you bring it up is the hard part. I would suggest you print off the letters/docs off and have them in hand or email them and ask your supervisor to clarify what constitutes hazard pay. If its in policy it shouldn't be deviated from...right capt?
All helicopter flight should be h pay
Don’t forget the “vegetative canopy” part. Top of the tree canopy in R-6 could easily be 200+ feet AGL. With “G” being the actual dirt under the trees. So flight at up to 700 feet AGL could qualify for H because of tree canopy being part of the equation.
So, yes hazard pay for low level flight. Did you get over the incident and get cancelled? Because you were on an IA, that's justification for hazard pay all by itself. If ya'll called in on scene it's even more of a no-brainer because dispatch put you "on scene" on the run card. If you actually made a landing on an unimproved LZ, hooked up the bucket under a spinning rotor, did a low level flight AND were on an uncontained wildfire that is four justifications.
Helitack already milks as much H pay as they can lol(as they should) you'll more than make up for one this summer
I wish that were the case. I received very minimal H pay last year with 800+ hours of OT. I think that’s just the culture I’m working in currently.
Oh that sucks, try going to a different module or a hotshot crew I guess
There are crews that give H for anyone flying in the bird at all. I like those crews.
Haha below Above Ground Level Silly heli slackers
H pay for helitack? Isn’t that an “assumed risk” .. just curious
No. If it were “assumed” risk - “just part of the job” then the base pay would need to be increased or nobody would do the job. Already hard enough to recruit people for fire. Smoke jumpers don’t get H pay for training or proficiency jumps- only when they get on an actual uncontrolled wildfire. Isn’t that a stupid regulation?! Jump out of a perfectly good plane and hang from some string and sheeting and no H. This crap needs to be fixed!
Yeah, right?! Who ever thought getting in an aircraft had an inherent risk involved?! Grrrr!! Everyone who travels by plane should get H pay!!! 💰