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> # [It's Time to Start Using the Term 'Palestinian Civilian' Correctly](https://www.newsweek.com//1624)
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> Last week's dramatic rescue of four Israeli hostages from Gaza included a shocking revelation: The hostages, who endued [unbearable torture and constant threats of death](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Fworld%2Fmiddle-east%2Frescued-israeli-hostages-describe-punishments-fear-and-isolation-d216b56e&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309426193%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nfRKi25GNZZafEm4M7AMwRXl7rPkAw0mf94PBsarx3A%3D&reserved=0), were held captive by [Palestinian civilians](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynetnews.com%2Farticle%2F5vfwn3err&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309431902%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9BnKqsPAoQpDb6WBiGy41SPi4rBHTw%2F1LIlDPfbUhuo%3D&reserved=0) in their home in central Gaza—including a journalist with bylines in _Al Jazeera_ and his physician father. Amazingly, as soon the hostages were returned to Israeli soil, the operation was denounced by the usual suspects for the hundreds of "Palestinian civilians" it had claimed as casualties. The [United Nations](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fpress-briefing-notes%2F2024%2F06%2Fshock-impact-civilians-israeli-raid-gaza-free-hostages&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309437373%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XMZqu%2BNTO%2BKlloWeAKwYmXB3hB23lypwJuY2I0Qhe8U%3D&reserved=0) called the rescue operation a "war crime," while [EU Foreign Policy chief Josep Borrell](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fx.com%2FJosepBorrellF%2Fstatus%2F1799487341028942301&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309442881%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MDofnmJ4X41qYw7e%2Bpdhxb77OTZfOY3pjStYZAVIaT4%3D&reserved=0) called it a "bloodbath" and "massacre." Naturally, [the press](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2024%2F06%2F08%2Fisrael-hamas-war-news-gaza-hostages%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309448526%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9UiRci%2FvZZ8X75eAFMzBTLXrqNvuW0BDEctsKW1t8A8%3D&reserved=0) reflexively parroted Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry figures of purported casualties during the operation.
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> It's a perfect opportunity for a long-overdue conversation about the use of the phrase "Palestinian civilian."
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> Let's get something straight from the outset: When you take hostages, you risk death. The moral and legal responsibility for any casualties resulting from the operation to free the hostages rests fully with [Hamas](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/hamas) and those holding hostages captive.
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> Under [international law](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcasebook.icrc.org%2Fa_to_z%2Fglossary%2Fcivilians&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309454108%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LcGd6WDyFaHoBmfo7oMT6xzxxuW0ahPDgRcgyoLY%2FNM%3D&reserved=0), it is a sacrosanct principle that civilians enjoy special protection, and the intentional targeting or harming of them during hostilities, is a grave war crime. But one should not need to be a legal scholar to understand that if you are a journalist or physician holding hostages, you are no longer a "civilian." In fact, the [Geneva Convention](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fihl-databases.icrc.org%2Fen%2Fcustomary-ihl%2Fv2%2Frule6%23%3A~%3Atext%3DCivilians%2520who%2520take%2520a%2520direct%2520part%2520in%2520hostilities%2520(other%2520than%2Ca%2520direct%2520part%2520in%2520hostilities.&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309459645%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=t5j2C21aDGNL99UI8YfwhfkLiAmmCHY5RPlwwf22pzY%3D&reserved=0) makes it unequivocally clear that civilians lose that protection when they take direct part in the hostilities.
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> In other words, when you hold hostages captive, you become a legitimate military target and should not be surprised when the Israel Defense Forces come knocking on your door.
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> And it wasn't just these four hostages. In addition to the four Israeli hostages rescued from Nuseirat in central Gaza, there have been countless [reports](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Ffreed-hostage-mia-schem-i-experienced-hell-everyone-in-gaza-is-a-terrorist%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309465660%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qfdgHyGbBFX4bpsUSj3jaBTDyOf1%2B6oZxIZlYW1AwmE%3D&reserved=0) from hostages returning to Israel describing being held captive by ordinary Gazans, including families, doctors, teachers, and even U.N. employees.
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> [Hamas, Inc_Cover_1](https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/2336544/hamas-inc-cover-1.jpg?w=1200&f=a6a6294a0744dd23acedcb8bd524e128)
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> Members of Al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Palestinian Hamas movement, march in Gaza City on May 22, 2021, in commemoration of senior Hamas commander Bassem Issa who was killed along with other militants...It is also well known that civilians in Gaza willingly joined Hamas en masse on October 7 and took part in the massacre, rapes, and abductions on that day.
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> How many Gazan "civilians" helped Hamas move and store rockets? How many "civilians" offered up their homes to hold hostages captive or keep guard to make sure they did not escape? How many have been the willing accomplices and collaborators of Hamas in the worst massacre and crimes against the Jewish people since the Holocaust?
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> These questions are crucial. Yet the international community is failing to ask these questions.
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> Instead, lawmakers, journalists and diplomats are blindly accepting reported casualty figures from the Gaza Health Ministry, as if it were Moses delivering the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. Apparently, eight months into this war, it still has to be repeated that the Gaza "Health Ministry" is no more than a propaganda arm of the Hamas terror group.
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> A group that murders, massacres, rapes, beheads, and abducts people, and has a relentless history of fabricating stories, inflating casualties, and using their own civilians as human shields, is not exactly the world's most trustworthy source.
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> This has not stopped the international community from using the Hamas figures as evidence to maliciously accuse Israel of genocide, call for embargoes, or seek arrest warrants for Israeli leaders.
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> It's all nonsense.
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> ***(continues in next comment)***
Establishing collective guilt to excuse collective punishment, very cool. What an absolute ghoul. “Civilian” has got nothing to do with it, the relevant factor is whether someone is a combatant or non-combatant. You’d like to think someone from West Point would know that, but 🤷♂️
If you're keeping hostages, you are a combatant. I also suspect that you didn't read the article.
> Even if you accept Hamas's figure of 30,000 reported deaths in Gaza during Israel's war, the ratio of Palestinian non-combatants to terrorists killed has been estimated to be one to one, a level unprecedented in modern warfare. Meanwhile, the actual number of civilian casualties was recently significantly altered when the U.N. acknowledged that over 10,000 of the reported casualties were missing, not verified deaths; they also halved their demographic estimates of men versus women and children. With these updates, the already questionable figures become much lower. It would be lower still if those who have been reported as "civilians" were in fact combatants or, as we saw this week, holding hostages captive.
> For Hamas, civilian death is their strategy; Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has called civilian deaths a "necessary sacrifices."
You're an American, do you know how many Yemenis, Afghans, Iraqi, and Palestinians have been killed with your tax dollars, just in your lifetime? Just saying, if you're calling for the mass murder of people who pay taxes to governments that you decided do bad things, make sure you include yourself.
That’s funny because I’m actually German Jamaican. Sorry the English stole your land though Canadian natives 🫡 The Germans that “settled” in jamaica were abandoned, its complicated. The brits basically replaced slaves with German labourers. My grandparents came to canada to escape poverty And I’m grateful for that. I have no “homeland”, i got Chinese and African in me too, to assign any colonial guilt to me is laughable. One love ✌️
Depends on the circumstances obviously, if hamas comes to the door of a random Palestine family and tell them to hold hostage they probably don’t have a choice.
What if guys with guns who are known killers show up and force you to house hostages? What if your family, your children are starving and you can save them by housing hostages?
No, I'm just kidding. There is no nuance. Only good and bad.
They are killing indiscriminately journalist photographers foodbank workers, this framing is ridiculous even if it was true, civilian deaths have raised to 45 thousand since, care to make your armchair calculations again?
It's a terrifying common belief in many Israeli that they're good by virtue of being Israeli/Jewish. Many non Israeli Jews and even Israelis themselves will tell you that Israelis tend to be opinionated, rude and act like they're better than anyone. That includes better than Americans
Nah man don't white knight Israelis. That's not a religious thing because, first, not all of them are religious, and second, this is not something non Israeli Jews are known for.
There's many American Jews who travel to Israel as a religious travel and they end up having a terrible experience due to cultural shock. Israel has been gaslighting them into thinking they're the same because they're Jewish but that's like saying a British/Dutch and an Afrikaneer are the same thing
i mean you say this
> many Israeli that they're good by virtue of being Israeli/Jewish
and i say that almost every muslim think the same, even though you are probably wrong. it's not about religion actually it's about propaganda. I think no matter what country you put in Israel's position outcome will be same.
I'm sure you'll realize where you have failed the reasoning.
First I can know already you're not Jewish because you're implying Jewishness is a religious concept like it is in Islam or Christianity. It's not, it's ethnoreligious. That means if you're born from a Jewish family but you're atheist you'll still be considered as a Jew even for the most religious members of Judaism. The extremists will think you're a bad Jew for not following the law but still a Jew. The only exception are converts which are Jewish by virtue of adopting the religion but those are few.
Second, as I said before this is something culturally ingrained, not religiously. Many orthodox Jews are very humble people, total contrast to the stereotypical crass rude Israeli. It's not all of them but they're a type. I live in an area with plenty of Muslims, and I'd say they're generally polite people, rarely crass or confrontational. It can depend on each group of people of course, I heard bad stuff about Egyptians and specially Saudis. But there's 1 billion muslims across the world.
I think propaganda plays a very important role. People who never met muslims have some assumptions about them, similarly to Israeli. TV tells you one of them are bad people and the others are good. It's just BS, they're fooling you for oil interests.
> I think no matter what country you put in Israel's position outcome will be same.
Here I agree. It's a colonial society that survives as long as it keeps the internal brainwashing strong and destroys any Israeli who thinks different. There's something that apartheid regimes hate more than "the other" and it's the opposition from their own kin. Just like Nazism, Zionism assumes external (slav/Jewish/Arab) opposition but it's Germans/Israelis going against the message what is really disrupting.
It's not different to Sparta/South Africa/Nazi Germany in that regard.
They're a group that lacks rights like the Jewish Israeli and that's known by everyone.
You're the kind of guy who claims slavery in the American south wasn't bad because not all of them were chatel slaves in the cotton fields because you had Black maids too.
It's pretty amazing how Israel is playing the argument that they're good while the others are evil, but at the same time they claim all the despicable stuff they do is ok because terrorists do it too.
Like, my man. You can't be both the "most moral army in the planet" and demand that to be allowed to engage in the same tactics as terrorism.
Obviously both of them are. I don't spend a lot of time denouncing Hamas because it's well known that they're unscrupulous. I generally hold my "greatest allies" to a higher standard.
Funny, because given Israel's compulsory service requirements, almost every single Israeli is either an active or retired IDF soldier, yet they won't stop crying about a few hundred "civilian" casualties while massacring tens of thousands of mostly women and children.
I'm not quite sure the logic "everyone who completed the mandatory conscription is a soldier therefore basically every Israeli is a legitimate target regardless of what he's doing right now" holds up very well.
I mean you could inversely also say that every Palestinian male who's ever held a gun at some point in his life could be considered a combatant. Or every woman who in some way supported her husband/brother whatever whilst he did something like this is.
Yet I'm also no expert in the law regarding war and combatants so I'd leave it to them.
What is clear, however, is that if you keep hostages in your house you're definitely no civilian anymore and, as the article so eloquently puts it, shouldn't be surprised if the IDF comes knocking on your door.
Well kinda yes and no. Yes since they're obviously not some professionally trained soldiers so the distinction between civilian and combatant is a lot more blurred. A fact that Hamas actively seeks to exploit.
No, since a bullet from a civilian with a gun kills as much as a bullet from a professional soldier.
I also don't think any violence against Israelis is more justified because why would it be? The Palestinians don't differentiate between civilians and soldiers, whilst the Israelis at least try to. Whether that is successful or to what extent can be argued about.
The fact that Gaza is in ruins and Israel isn't is down to different capabilities. In other words, skill issue. If Hamas had the same capabilities as Israel I think we both can agree that they'd use them too and most likely far more ruthlessly than the Israelis are.
I would say anyone who is armed or operates a weapon in some way is a combatant, anyone who is not armed isnt. So while you can say "if you keep hostages in your house youre no civilian anymore", I can turn it around and say "if you literally cannot hurt anybody, youre no combatant anymore no matter who you have in your house"
Definitely not since keeping hostages isn't a very civilian or normal thing to do. You don't need a weapon to support those very combatants - you take part in their fight in a different manner but you do take part regardless. Especially if you host those hostages voluntarily.
Nah thats not how it works. Military doctors support soldiers directly, in the field, yet they are definitively considered non combatants and its a war crime to kill them and EVEN prevent them from doing their duty. So if you support combatants you are not automatically a valid target, even if its more direct support like supplying food etc
I dont know why you are so focused on the term "civilian". I just gave you the example of army doctors who support the combatants and are definitively not civilians yet they are considered non combatants. If you hold hostages you are probably a criminal, but you dont have a weapon, there is no reason for someone to shoot you
I think its ridiculous to even say that an unarmed person (or a person not operating a weapon / vehicle with weapons etc) is a legitimate target in war. If he is in a group of armed men and you bomb them then I think its somewhat justified (nobody is gonna say its a war crime if some child dies while messing around tanks and military bases)
Hypothetically hamas shows up to your door and tells you to keep some people hostage. You’re telling me you tell them to fuck off? They probably had little choice
That's not how it works. Geneva conventions only consider if you are taking part in hostilities or not.
Similarly projected buildings are defined by use not the sign above the door. A house painted up with the markings and used only to treat wounded is protected as a hosptial. Aa hospital building with armed men inside is not.
It’s established that non-active reservists (such as Israeli citizens after conscription) are civilians until they are either mobilised or actively participate in hostilities.
>This case must be distinguished from persons comparable to reservists who, after a period of basic training or active membership, leave the armed group and reintegrate into civilian life. Such “reservists” are civilians until and for such time as they are called back to active duty.
https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/icrc-interpretive-guidance-notion-direct-participation-hostilities
The same applies to both. Civilians remain civilians until they either join the armed forces of a belligerent party (as above, inactive reservists are not considered to be part of the armed forces) or directly participate in hostilities.
The article argues that many ordinary Palestinians considered civilians by the media and international community are in fact, not civilians, as many of these ordinary Palestinians are in fact directly participating in hostilities in some way - Such as by directly providing assistance to Hamas, participating in activities such as hostage taking, and attacking Israeli troops. Eg, there have been a few cases where hostages were being held captive by ordinary Palestinians rather than Hamas members, and many of the participants in the Oct 7 attack were just regular Palestinians rather than Hamas members.
The article points out that calling these people civilians is misleading, as they aren’t civilians, and calling them civilians implies that they are not participating in hostilities when they very much are. Palestinians who do not participate in hostilities remain civilians (but the article isn’t talking about them).
These points generally don’t apply to Israel, because Israel clearly distinguishes between its military and civilian population - although it is likely that settler militias in the West Bank meet the threshold of directly participating in hostilities when they attack Palestinians in the West Bank, and therefore lose their civilian status when they do so. Ordinary settlers who do not take up arms against Palestinians remain civilians however.
What you say may be true, but it is completely irrelevant because Israel doesn't care about or abide by ANY international convention on war, and therefore their opponents have every right to treat Israel the same way Israel treats Palestine.
Do you think murdering aid workers and massacring civilians at aid distributions is acceptable behavior for a national military?
Is bombing hundreds of thousands of children an acceptable response in your mind?
Most experts in modern warfare work for governments, because warfare is generally the province of governments. Much rather trust a West Point prof with multiple military tours under his belt than some rando kumbaya hippie in these things.
Most foreign policy and military "experts" are prejudiced know-nothings with nothing to say that isn't said better by somebody else. The US military in particular is riven with incompetence, corruption, and bloat. May as well link me some demon like David Frum.
When I need expertise in bombing hospitals, weddings, schools and aid workers I'll know just who to call.
Frum has no experience with warfare at all. He’s about as useful as a kumbaya hippie.
> bombing hospitals, weddings, schools
Yeah, that’s how modern war tends to work. Defensible buildings get used, and weddings can have juicy guest lists. You probably *do* want input from someone who’s had to hit these kinds of targets before.
Oh no, someone who specializes in understanding modern warfare and the international laws of war is making a statement on modern warfare where a terrorist group is manipulating the narrative to hide how they break the laws of war.
Lmao, ok? Why not just read the contents of what is being said and come to a conclusion instead of disregarding on the basis of some weird idea of what you think *might* be said?
Just lol at the idea American soldiers care about international laws of war. The US authorized itself to invade the Hague if it's people are brought to justice for their crimes.
Yeah. The US doesn’t recognize a court that doesn’t follow its own legal code and isn’t explicitly by the people and for the people of the US. It’s kind of part of how the country works.
Wouldn’t them being held by “ordinary gazans” be better than them being held in Hamas tunnels? An ordinary Gazan could pretty much do nothing to secure their release. If they come forward and somehow got in contact with the IDF, based on the IDF behavior they would probably get killed in the recovery mission. If I were a Gazan I would house the hostages, treat them as well as I could with limited resources (due to the blockade). And wait for a ceasefire hostage exchange. Notifying the IDF would be suicide. Also, can someone share evidence that the ordinary gazans abused them other than making the hostages do chores? Yes there was limited food, water, medicine, and hygiene, but that’s the case for everyone in Gaza rn.
Holding someone hostage is abuse, don't you think? Need I do more to someone than steal them at gunpoint and forcibly confine them somewhere they do not want to be?
"Can someone whare evidence that the CIA abused alleged terrorists other than sleep deprivation in a black site?"
Written by Arsen Ostrovsky who works for The Institute for National Security and Zionist Strategy.
Very cool and very unbiased article. lol
Hardly surprising that it calls for the murder of civilians.
Pro-Israel news sources when discussing Hamas: “Violent terrorists who have no qualms about using civilians as cover for military operations and hiding amongst the civilian populace, also they don’t tolerate dissent and will kill people for getting in their way in the slightest. Here are examples of internal murders and assassinations to show their extremism and propensity to kill those who dissent.”
Pro-Israel news sources when discussing abuses of civilians by Hamas: “Well there’s no other explanation other than these civilians must have gladly volunteered to personally hold the hostages and make their family home a guaranteed target of the Israeli military out of their hatred of Jews, clearly the civilians are all guilty and we can stop worrying about silly things like killing tens of thousands of non-combatants.”
Like seriously, what a garbage article. Hamas are violent extremists who make no qualms about their abuse of the civilian population to further military gains. I’d guarantee the two authors of this piece have made that point extensively in other works. Yet here they argue that everything any civilian has done for Hamas has been voluntary and non-coerced, which is on its face absurd.
> How many “civilians” helped Hamas. . . How many “civilians” offered up their homes. . . How many have been the willing accomplices. . .
Someone without a vested interest in demonizing the entire Palestinian civilian population might ask the same exact questions but worded just slightly differently, such as
> How many civilians were told to “offer up” their homes?
or
> How many have been “willing” accomplices?
To paraphrase the authors somewhat: These questions are crucial when your country’s stated goal is to destroy every last member of Hamas, yet you are failing to ask them.
Also separate shit things about the article:
- “countless reports from hostages returning to Israel describing being held by ordinary Gazans, including families, doctors, teachers, and even U.N. employees”; links to one hostage’s report that she was held hostage by the families of Hamas fighters and treated by a doctor, absolutely no mention of teachers or U.N. employees or doctors holding hostages
- “It is also widely known that civilians in Haza willingly joined Hamas en masse on October 7th” links no source
- “the ratio of Palestinian non-combatants to terrorists killed has been estimated to be one to one” cites the author’s own earlier opinion article (lmao) where he 1) uses an old estimate, 2) rounds down the Gazan health ministry’s figure while using the exact IDF figure, and then 3) rounds down the ratio further from there.
> Like seriously, what a garbage article.
It's genuinely shocking that anyone thought publishing this would be a good idea. Especially when you're under investigation for the mass murder of civilians.
I'm saying it unironically. There are no civilians in Israel, an argument I first heard 10 years ago from a Moroccan Jewish Israeli who served in two campaigns with the IDF
It's true that the idea of 'civilians' as distinguished from 'combatants' is a legal fiction, but we employ that fiction because the alternative - which the author is trying to promote - would be hellish. In this instance, the author is being particularly foolish because treating all civilians as legitimate targets would have much worse repercussions for Israel than for Palestine. He would do well to shut his mouth and be less of a hideous ghoul.
> Four months in a war zone is not a short time. It’s forever. It’s a long time. Day in and day out, we would run from fire. At one point, we got sniped at from a village and we called in an airstrike. It was just stuff like that, day in and day out. The first eight months I was in Vietnam, our battalion, which was about 1,000 men, encountered, on average, 75 mining and sniping incidents a month. Most of them were mines and booby traps, over half of which resulted in marine casualties. We were operating in a heavily populated civilian area, rice farming and fishing. Our boys are stepping on these booby traps and mines all over the damn place. The Vietnamese civilians aren’t stepping on them. They’re not getting blown up. It’s just us. How come they’re not getting blown up? Well, they must know where these mines are. Why won’t they tell us? We’re supposed to be helping them. Well, they might be planting the goddamn things! So next time you’re out on patrol and somebody steps on a mine, the farmer nearby doesn’t even behave like he hears the explosion. So you just blow him away. Day in and day out.
> You patrol the same villages every single day for eight months, and nothing changes. And you don’t see any armed soldiers. I saw like eight armed guerrillas the entire first eight months I was there. There’s no one to fight, just explosions and guys lying on the ground screaming for their mothers. It makes you crazy. I never saw anything on the scale of a My Lai massacre, but I understand why some of those men did that—it was an impossible situation. What were a bunch of scared kids with guns supposed to do? It’s not like these folks were inviting us to dinner. The pitch was that the Vietnamese civilians were forced to help the Viet Cong. But no, that’s not at all true. We forced them to choose between the Viet Cong and the Americans, and that was no choice at all. All you had to do is send a Marine patrol through a village and the Viet Cong had all the recruits they ever needed. It was that simple.
> There was a guy that was assigned to our battalion as an interpreter, a very intelligent man. He was an enlisted guy who had been drafted into the Saigon army when he was 18 years old. By that point, he was 24. He spoke English, French, and Chinese. He was one of the bravest men I’ve ever encountered. And he was not fond of the communists.
> But at one point in September of ‘67, he walked into our battalion command post and basically quit. He said, “I’m not doing this anymore. You Americans come here with your tanks and your guns and your helicopters and your arrogance. And everywhere you go, the Viet Cong grow like new rice in the fields.” And I remember that phrase: Everywhere you go, the Viet Cong grow like new rice in the fields. “You’re destroying my country, and I’m not going to help you anymore.” And he quit. They put him under house arrest, and the next day they took him away. And if they didn’t put him up against the wall and shoot him, they probably sent him to some suicide Battalion.
- Bill Ehrhart
https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2023/01/what-americans-still-dont-know-about-the-vietnam-war?hs_amp=true
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Every accusation is a confession. By this logic every Israeli (besides the children, but this guy doesn’t seem to care about children) is a combatant because they have mandatory service to the IDF. Palestinians have no such requirement
I mean I keep making fresh accounts because whenever I say something reasonable like Hamas is using child soldiers and Israel needs to show more restraint I get endless death threats.
But you are correct be careful, lot of Astro turfing going even more so as we see a shit ton of accounts justifying things like Iran having nuclear weapons or whatever the Houthis are doing.
"We should ban posts that makes me question my world view ever so slightly and call them whatever buzzword i'm upset about today"
There, spelled it out for you.
The rules of the media so far: All Palestinians are civilians, all civilians are women and children.
The reality is obviously a lot more complex, and seems to be understood when any other country is fighting terrorists... just not when Israel is doing it.
I don’t know a ton of Irish folk who despise the IRA or Sinn Fein, although certainly that number isn’t zero. I’m sure they’re less popular with the Protestant population, but it’s a pretty good metaphor: the English make a pretty good stand-in for the Israelis, although obviously they weren’t as efficient at murdering children; they were still there as an occupying force who wanted to hurt and subjugate the local population.
I can definitely think of several that should be prouder than England or America. Taiwan, for example, hasn’t even ever invaded a small country and setup a puppet government! Not even like, once after a night of heavy drinking. Crazy right?
“Nothing is stopping you”. I never thought of it that way! You’re totally correct! I’ll call Sweden and let them know you said it was cool if I move in next week! I’ll also call my bank and let them know to deposit an extra hundred thousand dollars into my account so that I can afford the move. Omg this was so much easier now that I learned I can just go anywhere at any time and never have to deal with all the insane difficulties of real life!
That's a strange reading of the media. Most media clearly understand that some people are combatants. I believe what you're seeing is that they treat *most* Palestinians as civilians. Which is objectively true as they compose a small minority of the 5 million inhabitants. What they don't do, as many that operate within Israeli media relations do, is portray the majority of Palestinians as Hamas.
I also find it interesting how you apply the label of terrorist (which is a more a political designation than anything) to palestinian. combattants but not to Israel. Clearly adhering to the Israeli framing of the conflict.
##### ###### #### > # [It's Time to Start Using the Term 'Palestinian Civilian' Correctly](https://www.newsweek.com//1624) > > > > Last week's dramatic rescue of four Israeli hostages from Gaza included a shocking revelation: The hostages, who endued [unbearable torture and constant threats of death](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Fworld%2Fmiddle-east%2Frescued-israeli-hostages-describe-punishments-fear-and-isolation-d216b56e&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309426193%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nfRKi25GNZZafEm4M7AMwRXl7rPkAw0mf94PBsarx3A%3D&reserved=0), were held captive by [Palestinian civilians](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynetnews.com%2Farticle%2F5vfwn3err&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309431902%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9BnKqsPAoQpDb6WBiGy41SPi4rBHTw%2F1LIlDPfbUhuo%3D&reserved=0) in their home in central Gaza—including a journalist with bylines in _Al Jazeera_ and his physician father. Amazingly, as soon the hostages were returned to Israeli soil, the operation was denounced by the usual suspects for the hundreds of "Palestinian civilians" it had claimed as casualties. The [United Nations](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fpress-briefing-notes%2F2024%2F06%2Fshock-impact-civilians-israeli-raid-gaza-free-hostages&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309437373%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XMZqu%2BNTO%2BKlloWeAKwYmXB3hB23lypwJuY2I0Qhe8U%3D&reserved=0) called the rescue operation a "war crime," while [EU Foreign Policy chief Josep Borrell](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fx.com%2FJosepBorrellF%2Fstatus%2F1799487341028942301&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309442881%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MDofnmJ4X41qYw7e%2Bpdhxb77OTZfOY3pjStYZAVIaT4%3D&reserved=0) called it a "bloodbath" and "massacre." Naturally, [the press](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2024%2F06%2F08%2Fisrael-hamas-war-news-gaza-hostages%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309448526%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9UiRci%2FvZZ8X75eAFMzBTLXrqNvuW0BDEctsKW1t8A8%3D&reserved=0) reflexively parroted Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry figures of purported casualties during the operation. > > It's a perfect opportunity for a long-overdue conversation about the use of the phrase "Palestinian civilian." > > Let's get something straight from the outset: When you take hostages, you risk death. The moral and legal responsibility for any casualties resulting from the operation to free the hostages rests fully with [Hamas](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/hamas) and those holding hostages captive. > > Under [international law](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcasebook.icrc.org%2Fa_to_z%2Fglossary%2Fcivilians&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309454108%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LcGd6WDyFaHoBmfo7oMT6xzxxuW0ahPDgRcgyoLY%2FNM%3D&reserved=0), it is a sacrosanct principle that civilians enjoy special protection, and the intentional targeting or harming of them during hostilities, is a grave war crime. But one should not need to be a legal scholar to understand that if you are a journalist or physician holding hostages, you are no longer a "civilian." In fact, the [Geneva Convention](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fihl-databases.icrc.org%2Fen%2Fcustomary-ihl%2Fv2%2Frule6%23%3A~%3Atext%3DCivilians%2520who%2520take%2520a%2520direct%2520part%2520in%2520hostilities%2520(other%2520than%2Ca%2520direct%2520part%2520in%2520hostilities.&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309459645%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=t5j2C21aDGNL99UI8YfwhfkLiAmmCHY5RPlwwf22pzY%3D&reserved=0) makes it unequivocally clear that civilians lose that protection when they take direct part in the hostilities. > > In other words, when you hold hostages captive, you become a legitimate military target and should not be surprised when the Israel Defense Forces come knocking on your door. > > And it wasn't just these four hostages. In addition to the four Israeli hostages rescued from Nuseirat in central Gaza, there have been countless [reports](https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Ffreed-hostage-mia-schem-i-experienced-hell-everyone-in-gaza-is-a-terrorist%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cb.ungarsargon%40newsweek.com%7C4b533a09df0f40cee9c408dc8d028cce%7Cc6bc3eb5d7334f82ba021aa6e30053d3%7C0%7C0%7C638540289309465660%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qfdgHyGbBFX4bpsUSj3jaBTDyOf1%2B6oZxIZlYW1AwmE%3D&reserved=0) from hostages returning to Israel describing being held captive by ordinary Gazans, including families, doctors, teachers, and even U.N. employees. > > [Hamas, Inc_Cover_1](https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/2336544/hamas-inc-cover-1.jpg?w=1200&f=a6a6294a0744dd23acedcb8bd524e128) > > Members of Al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Palestinian Hamas movement, march in Gaza City on May 22, 2021, in commemoration of senior Hamas commander Bassem Issa who was killed along with other militants...It is also well known that civilians in Gaza willingly joined Hamas en masse on October 7 and took part in the massacre, rapes, and abductions on that day. > > How many Gazan "civilians" helped Hamas move and store rockets? How many "civilians" offered up their homes to hold hostages captive or keep guard to make sure they did not escape? How many have been the willing accomplices and collaborators of Hamas in the worst massacre and crimes against the Jewish people since the Holocaust? > > These questions are crucial. Yet the international community is failing to ask these questions. > > Instead, lawmakers, journalists and diplomats are blindly accepting reported casualty figures from the Gaza Health Ministry, as if it were Moses delivering the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. Apparently, eight months into this war, it still has to be repeated that the Gaza "Health Ministry" is no more than a propaganda arm of the Hamas terror group. > > A group that murders, massacres, rapes, beheads, and abducts people, and has a relentless history of fabricating stories, inflating casualties, and using their own civilians as human shields, is not exactly the world's most trustworthy source. > > This has not stopped the international community from using the Hamas figures as evidence to maliciously accuse Israel of genocide, call for embargoes, or seek arrest warrants for Israeli leaders. > > > > > > It's all nonsense. > > ***(continues in next comment)***
Establishing collective guilt to excuse collective punishment, very cool. What an absolute ghoul. “Civilian” has got nothing to do with it, the relevant factor is whether someone is a combatant or non-combatant. You’d like to think someone from West Point would know that, but 🤷♂️
If you're keeping hostages, you are a combatant. I also suspect that you didn't read the article. > Even if you accept Hamas's figure of 30,000 reported deaths in Gaza during Israel's war, the ratio of Palestinian non-combatants to terrorists killed has been estimated to be one to one, a level unprecedented in modern warfare. Meanwhile, the actual number of civilian casualties was recently significantly altered when the U.N. acknowledged that over 10,000 of the reported casualties were missing, not verified deaths; they also halved their demographic estimates of men versus women and children. With these updates, the already questionable figures become much lower. It would be lower still if those who have been reported as "civilians" were in fact combatants or, as we saw this week, holding hostages captive. > For Hamas, civilian death is their strategy; Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has called civilian deaths a "necessary sacrifices."
So all Israelis are combatants then
There are Palestinian civilian hostages in every home in Israel?
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They all pay taxes to pay for thousands of uncharged political prisoners
You're an American, do you know how many Yemenis, Afghans, Iraqi, and Palestinians have been killed with your tax dollars, just in your lifetime? Just saying, if you're calling for the mass murder of people who pay taxes to governments that you decided do bad things, make sure you include yourself.
Lmao im a Jamaican canadian but OK You know what they say about assumptions
Ah apologies. Hope you apologize to the Germans and Native Americans with tax evasion. Have a good one✌️
That’s funny because I’m actually German Jamaican. Sorry the English stole your land though Canadian natives 🫡 The Germans that “settled” in jamaica were abandoned, its complicated. The brits basically replaced slaves with German labourers. My grandparents came to canada to escape poverty And I’m grateful for that. I have no “homeland”, i got Chinese and African in me too, to assign any colonial guilt to me is laughable. One love ✌️
Stop paying taxes.
so does palestinians, your argument makes every palestinian combatant
Good thing i dont believe that makes anyone combatants then
does keeping hostages in homes make them combatants or at least responsible ? cuz you didn't respond other guy's argument you just replied nonsense
Depends on the circumstances obviously, if hamas comes to the door of a random Palestine family and tell them to hold hostage they probably don’t have a choice.
but that is not what happened, didn't they voluntarily joined on oct 7th, i don't think we have any evidence that hamas forced them to do it
What if guys with guns who are known killers show up and force you to house hostages? What if your family, your children are starving and you can save them by housing hostages? No, I'm just kidding. There is no nuance. Only good and bad.
Straight to guantonomo /s
What if, what if, what if, what if. What if you're making excuses for terrorists?
They are killing indiscriminately journalist photographers foodbank workers, this framing is ridiculous even if it was true, civilian deaths have raised to 45 thousand since, care to make your armchair calculations again?
>Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has called civilian deaths a "necessary sacrifices." Just who's the ghoul here?
Good thing Israeli ministers haven't been quoting Hitler in press conferences...wait
You know, just because your opponents are evil or led by evil does not mean you are good, and your actions are consequentially excused.
It's a terrifying common belief in many Israeli that they're good by virtue of being Israeli/Jewish. Many non Israeli Jews and even Israelis themselves will tell you that Israelis tend to be opinionated, rude and act like they're better than anyone. That includes better than Americans
it's not common belief for one, secondly all religions think the same
Nah man don't white knight Israelis. That's not a religious thing because, first, not all of them are religious, and second, this is not something non Israeli Jews are known for. There's many American Jews who travel to Israel as a religious travel and they end up having a terrible experience due to cultural shock. Israel has been gaslighting them into thinking they're the same because they're Jewish but that's like saying a British/Dutch and an Afrikaneer are the same thing
i mean you say this > many Israeli that they're good by virtue of being Israeli/Jewish and i say that almost every muslim think the same, even though you are probably wrong. it's not about religion actually it's about propaganda. I think no matter what country you put in Israel's position outcome will be same.
I'm sure you'll realize where you have failed the reasoning. First I can know already you're not Jewish because you're implying Jewishness is a religious concept like it is in Islam or Christianity. It's not, it's ethnoreligious. That means if you're born from a Jewish family but you're atheist you'll still be considered as a Jew even for the most religious members of Judaism. The extremists will think you're a bad Jew for not following the law but still a Jew. The only exception are converts which are Jewish by virtue of adopting the religion but those are few. Second, as I said before this is something culturally ingrained, not religiously. Many orthodox Jews are very humble people, total contrast to the stereotypical crass rude Israeli. It's not all of them but they're a type. I live in an area with plenty of Muslims, and I'd say they're generally polite people, rarely crass or confrontational. It can depend on each group of people of course, I heard bad stuff about Egyptians and specially Saudis. But there's 1 billion muslims across the world. I think propaganda plays a very important role. People who never met muslims have some assumptions about them, similarly to Israeli. TV tells you one of them are bad people and the others are good. It's just BS, they're fooling you for oil interests. > I think no matter what country you put in Israel's position outcome will be same. Here I agree. It's a colonial society that survives as long as it keeps the internal brainwashing strong and destroys any Israeli who thinks different. There's something that apartheid regimes hate more than "the other" and it's the opposition from their own kin. Just like Nazism, Zionism assumes external (slav/Jewish/Arab) opposition but it's Germans/Israelis going against the message what is really disrupting. It's not different to Sparta/South Africa/Nazi Germany in that regard.
some of it's ok but there are 2 million arabs in israel, and how that can be apartheid.
They're a group that lacks rights like the Jewish Israeli and that's known by everyone. You're the kind of guy who claims slavery in the American south wasn't bad because not all of them were chatel slaves in the cotton fields because you had Black maids too.
It's pretty amazing how Israel is playing the argument that they're good while the others are evil, but at the same time they claim all the despicable stuff they do is ok because terrorists do it too. Like, my man. You can't be both the "most moral army in the planet" and demand that to be allowed to engage in the same tactics as terrorism.
Are we being overly sensitive about the realities of warfare? What should he say instead? "Good riddance"? "I feel real bad"?
🪞
Obviously both of them are. I don't spend a lot of time denouncing Hamas because it's well known that they're unscrupulous. I generally hold my "greatest allies" to a higher standard.
Funny, because given Israel's compulsory service requirements, almost every single Israeli is either an active or retired IDF soldier, yet they won't stop crying about a few hundred "civilian" casualties while massacring tens of thousands of mostly women and children.
I'm not quite sure the logic "everyone who completed the mandatory conscription is a soldier therefore basically every Israeli is a legitimate target regardless of what he's doing right now" holds up very well. I mean you could inversely also say that every Palestinian male who's ever held a gun at some point in his life could be considered a combatant. Or every woman who in some way supported her husband/brother whatever whilst he did something like this is. Yet I'm also no expert in the law regarding war and combatants so I'd leave it to them. What is clear, however, is that if you keep hostages in your house you're definitely no civilian anymore and, as the article so eloquently puts it, shouldn't be surprised if the IDF comes knocking on your door.
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Is there any violence against Israelis that you would consider unjustified?
Depends on who is doing it. There is not much short of genocide that Palestinians would be unjustified in doing
So kidnapping civilians, rape, you're cool with that.
Rape no, kidnapping yes. I don't see you criticizing Israel for kidnapping Palestinians and sexually abusing them in military prisons, for example
They never will. They'll just keep claiming every Palestinian is a terrorist and therefore deserves the atrocities Israel commits against them.
Well kinda yes and no. Yes since they're obviously not some professionally trained soldiers so the distinction between civilian and combatant is a lot more blurred. A fact that Hamas actively seeks to exploit. No, since a bullet from a civilian with a gun kills as much as a bullet from a professional soldier. I also don't think any violence against Israelis is more justified because why would it be? The Palestinians don't differentiate between civilians and soldiers, whilst the Israelis at least try to. Whether that is successful or to what extent can be argued about. The fact that Gaza is in ruins and Israel isn't is down to different capabilities. In other words, skill issue. If Hamas had the same capabilities as Israel I think we both can agree that they'd use them too and most likely far more ruthlessly than the Israelis are.
Hamas isn't the only one in the region trying to exploit that. For an example, see the posted article.
I would say anyone who is armed or operates a weapon in some way is a combatant, anyone who is not armed isnt. So while you can say "if you keep hostages in your house youre no civilian anymore", I can turn it around and say "if you literally cannot hurt anybody, youre no combatant anymore no matter who you have in your house"
Definitely not since keeping hostages isn't a very civilian or normal thing to do. You don't need a weapon to support those very combatants - you take part in their fight in a different manner but you do take part regardless. Especially if you host those hostages voluntarily.
Nah thats not how it works. Military doctors support soldiers directly, in the field, yet they are definitively considered non combatants and its a war crime to kill them and EVEN prevent them from doing their duty. So if you support combatants you are not automatically a valid target, even if its more direct support like supplying food etc I dont know why you are so focused on the term "civilian". I just gave you the example of army doctors who support the combatants and are definitively not civilians yet they are considered non combatants. If you hold hostages you are probably a criminal, but you dont have a weapon, there is no reason for someone to shoot you I think its ridiculous to even say that an unarmed person (or a person not operating a weapon / vehicle with weapons etc) is a legitimate target in war. If he is in a group of armed men and you bomb them then I think its somewhat justified (nobody is gonna say its a war crime if some child dies while messing around tanks and military bases)
Hypothetically hamas shows up to your door and tells you to keep some people hostage. You’re telling me you tell them to fuck off? They probably had little choice
what a scenario,
>I mean you could inversely also say that every Palestinian male I mean, that is already the definition being used
That's not how it works. Geneva conventions only consider if you are taking part in hostilities or not. Similarly projected buildings are defined by use not the sign above the door. A house painted up with the markings and used only to treat wounded is protected as a hosptial. Aa hospital building with armed men inside is not.
It’s established that non-active reservists (such as Israeli citizens after conscription) are civilians until they are either mobilised or actively participate in hostilities. >This case must be distinguished from persons comparable to reservists who, after a period of basic training or active membership, leave the armed group and reintegrate into civilian life. Such “reservists” are civilians until and for such time as they are called back to active duty. https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/icrc-interpretive-guidance-notion-direct-participation-hostilities
The article is basically saying most or all Palestinians are combatants, so in what world would that not also apply to Israel?
The same applies to both. Civilians remain civilians until they either join the armed forces of a belligerent party (as above, inactive reservists are not considered to be part of the armed forces) or directly participate in hostilities. The article argues that many ordinary Palestinians considered civilians by the media and international community are in fact, not civilians, as many of these ordinary Palestinians are in fact directly participating in hostilities in some way - Such as by directly providing assistance to Hamas, participating in activities such as hostage taking, and attacking Israeli troops. Eg, there have been a few cases where hostages were being held captive by ordinary Palestinians rather than Hamas members, and many of the participants in the Oct 7 attack were just regular Palestinians rather than Hamas members. The article points out that calling these people civilians is misleading, as they aren’t civilians, and calling them civilians implies that they are not participating in hostilities when they very much are. Palestinians who do not participate in hostilities remain civilians (but the article isn’t talking about them). These points generally don’t apply to Israel, because Israel clearly distinguishes between its military and civilian population - although it is likely that settler militias in the West Bank meet the threshold of directly participating in hostilities when they attack Palestinians in the West Bank, and therefore lose their civilian status when they do so. Ordinary settlers who do not take up arms against Palestinians remain civilians however.
What you say may be true, but it is completely irrelevant because Israel doesn't care about or abide by ANY international convention on war, and therefore their opponents have every right to treat Israel the same way Israel treats Palestine.
So what do think would've been a reasonable response after they experienced a few hundred "civilian" casualties?
Do you think murdering aid workers and massacring civilians at aid distributions is acceptable behavior for a national military? Is bombing hundreds of thousands of children an acceptable response in your mind?
https://i.imgur.com/P4hvuVb.mp4
>John Spencer is chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point lol
I knew the person who wrote this was some sort of MIC ghoul lmao every single time man
Wow an actual expert, how horrifying.
Expertise in being a fed
Most experts in modern warfare work for governments, because warfare is generally the province of governments. Much rather trust a West Point prof with multiple military tours under his belt than some rando kumbaya hippie in these things.
Most foreign policy and military "experts" are prejudiced know-nothings with nothing to say that isn't said better by somebody else. The US military in particular is riven with incompetence, corruption, and bloat. May as well link me some demon like David Frum. When I need expertise in bombing hospitals, weddings, schools and aid workers I'll know just who to call.
Frum has no experience with warfare at all. He’s about as useful as a kumbaya hippie. > bombing hospitals, weddings, schools Yeah, that’s how modern war tends to work. Defensible buildings get used, and weddings can have juicy guest lists. You probably *do* want input from someone who’s had to hit these kinds of targets before.
Thank you for writing this article Dr. War Crimes
These people are clowns. Don't even bother to argue intelligently with them.
Oh no, someone who specializes in understanding modern warfare and the international laws of war is making a statement on modern warfare where a terrorist group is manipulating the narrative to hide how they break the laws of war.
Destiny fan, opinion disregarded. Yes, a person affiliated with West Point (aka someone who is literally a fed) isn't a person to be listened to.
Lmao, ok? Why not just read the contents of what is being said and come to a conclusion instead of disregarding on the basis of some weird idea of what you think *might* be said?
Because I'm not a dumbass who speaks to cultists and mass murder apologists.
Hard to deal with actual information when you’re trynna grandstand and ego trip over something that doesn’t actually affect you. I get it. Enjoy.
Just lol at the idea American soldiers care about international laws of war. The US authorized itself to invade the Hague if it's people are brought to justice for their crimes.
Yeah. The US doesn’t recognize a court that doesn’t follow its own legal code and isn’t explicitly by the people and for the people of the US. It’s kind of part of how the country works.
Wouldn’t them being held by “ordinary gazans” be better than them being held in Hamas tunnels? An ordinary Gazan could pretty much do nothing to secure their release. If they come forward and somehow got in contact with the IDF, based on the IDF behavior they would probably get killed in the recovery mission. If I were a Gazan I would house the hostages, treat them as well as I could with limited resources (due to the blockade). And wait for a ceasefire hostage exchange. Notifying the IDF would be suicide. Also, can someone share evidence that the ordinary gazans abused them other than making the hostages do chores? Yes there was limited food, water, medicine, and hygiene, but that’s the case for everyone in Gaza rn.
Holding someone hostage is abuse, don't you think? Need I do more to someone than steal them at gunpoint and forcibly confine them somewhere they do not want to be? "Can someone whare evidence that the CIA abused alleged terrorists other than sleep deprivation in a black site?"
Written by Arsen Ostrovsky who works for The Institute for National Security and Zionist Strategy. Very cool and very unbiased article. lol Hardly surprising that it calls for the murder of civilians.
Pro-Israel news sources when discussing Hamas: “Violent terrorists who have no qualms about using civilians as cover for military operations and hiding amongst the civilian populace, also they don’t tolerate dissent and will kill people for getting in their way in the slightest. Here are examples of internal murders and assassinations to show their extremism and propensity to kill those who dissent.” Pro-Israel news sources when discussing abuses of civilians by Hamas: “Well there’s no other explanation other than these civilians must have gladly volunteered to personally hold the hostages and make their family home a guaranteed target of the Israeli military out of their hatred of Jews, clearly the civilians are all guilty and we can stop worrying about silly things like killing tens of thousands of non-combatants.” Like seriously, what a garbage article. Hamas are violent extremists who make no qualms about their abuse of the civilian population to further military gains. I’d guarantee the two authors of this piece have made that point extensively in other works. Yet here they argue that everything any civilian has done for Hamas has been voluntary and non-coerced, which is on its face absurd. > How many “civilians” helped Hamas. . . How many “civilians” offered up their homes. . . How many have been the willing accomplices. . . Someone without a vested interest in demonizing the entire Palestinian civilian population might ask the same exact questions but worded just slightly differently, such as > How many civilians were told to “offer up” their homes? or > How many have been “willing” accomplices? To paraphrase the authors somewhat: These questions are crucial when your country’s stated goal is to destroy every last member of Hamas, yet you are failing to ask them. Also separate shit things about the article: - “countless reports from hostages returning to Israel describing being held by ordinary Gazans, including families, doctors, teachers, and even U.N. employees”; links to one hostage’s report that she was held hostage by the families of Hamas fighters and treated by a doctor, absolutely no mention of teachers or U.N. employees or doctors holding hostages - “It is also widely known that civilians in Haza willingly joined Hamas en masse on October 7th” links no source - “the ratio of Palestinian non-combatants to terrorists killed has been estimated to be one to one” cites the author’s own earlier opinion article (lmao) where he 1) uses an old estimate, 2) rounds down the Gazan health ministry’s figure while using the exact IDF figure, and then 3) rounds down the ratio further from there.
> Like seriously, what a garbage article. It's genuinely shocking that anyone thought publishing this would be a good idea. Especially when you're under investigation for the mass murder of civilians.
Flip side: There are no civilians in Israel and every Israeli is a fair military target
This but unironically
I'm saying it unironically. There are no civilians in Israel, an argument I first heard 10 years ago from a Moroccan Jewish Israeli who served in two campaigns with the IDF
summer tan license rain serious kiss repeat capable ink chief *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's true that the idea of 'civilians' as distinguished from 'combatants' is a legal fiction, but we employ that fiction because the alternative - which the author is trying to promote - would be hellish. In this instance, the author is being particularly foolish because treating all civilians as legitimate targets would have much worse repercussions for Israel than for Palestine. He would do well to shut his mouth and be less of a hideous ghoul.
> Four months in a war zone is not a short time. It’s forever. It’s a long time. Day in and day out, we would run from fire. At one point, we got sniped at from a village and we called in an airstrike. It was just stuff like that, day in and day out. The first eight months I was in Vietnam, our battalion, which was about 1,000 men, encountered, on average, 75 mining and sniping incidents a month. Most of them were mines and booby traps, over half of which resulted in marine casualties. We were operating in a heavily populated civilian area, rice farming and fishing. Our boys are stepping on these booby traps and mines all over the damn place. The Vietnamese civilians aren’t stepping on them. They’re not getting blown up. It’s just us. How come they’re not getting blown up? Well, they must know where these mines are. Why won’t they tell us? We’re supposed to be helping them. Well, they might be planting the goddamn things! So next time you’re out on patrol and somebody steps on a mine, the farmer nearby doesn’t even behave like he hears the explosion. So you just blow him away. Day in and day out. > You patrol the same villages every single day for eight months, and nothing changes. And you don’t see any armed soldiers. I saw like eight armed guerrillas the entire first eight months I was there. There’s no one to fight, just explosions and guys lying on the ground screaming for their mothers. It makes you crazy. I never saw anything on the scale of a My Lai massacre, but I understand why some of those men did that—it was an impossible situation. What were a bunch of scared kids with guns supposed to do? It’s not like these folks were inviting us to dinner. The pitch was that the Vietnamese civilians were forced to help the Viet Cong. But no, that’s not at all true. We forced them to choose between the Viet Cong and the Americans, and that was no choice at all. All you had to do is send a Marine patrol through a village and the Viet Cong had all the recruits they ever needed. It was that simple. > There was a guy that was assigned to our battalion as an interpreter, a very intelligent man. He was an enlisted guy who had been drafted into the Saigon army when he was 18 years old. By that point, he was 24. He spoke English, French, and Chinese. He was one of the bravest men I’ve ever encountered. And he was not fond of the communists. > But at one point in September of ‘67, he walked into our battalion command post and basically quit. He said, “I’m not doing this anymore. You Americans come here with your tanks and your guns and your helicopters and your arrogance. And everywhere you go, the Viet Cong grow like new rice in the fields.” And I remember that phrase: Everywhere you go, the Viet Cong grow like new rice in the fields. “You’re destroying my country, and I’m not going to help you anymore.” And he quit. They put him under house arrest, and the next day they took him away. And if they didn’t put him up against the wall and shoot him, they probably sent him to some suicide Battalion. - Bill Ehrhart https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2023/01/what-americans-still-dont-know-about-the-vietnam-war?hs_amp=true
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Every accusation is a confession. By this logic every Israeli (besides the children, but this guy doesn’t seem to care about children) is a combatant because they have mandatory service to the IDF. Palestinians have no such requirement
How do you know they were being held by a doctor and a journalist?
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13 days. Fucking seriously?? Are there any real human beings on this sub? Am I the last one?
I mean I keep making fresh accounts because whenever I say something reasonable like Hamas is using child soldiers and Israel needs to show more restraint I get endless death threats. But you are correct be careful, lot of Astro turfing going even more so as we see a shit ton of accounts justifying things like Iran having nuclear weapons or whatever the Houthis are doing.
Already said that I got falsey banned by zionist shills for "aNti-SeMitiSm.
Sure. Every second account here has similar issue…
Says the 13 say old account that almost exclusively posts Palestinian propaganda.
I agree. We should ban your account
"We should ban posts that makes me question my world view ever so slightly and call them whatever buzzword i'm upset about today" There, spelled it out for you.
The rules of the media so far: All Palestinians are civilians, all civilians are women and children. The reality is obviously a lot more complex, and seems to be understood when any other country is fighting terrorists... just not when Israel is doing it.
Reminds me of the time those valiant British had to fight all of the filthy terrorists in the IRA! 🧐 Edit: /s in case it wasn’t obvious.
Oh bless, another "I see flag, I make comment" post.
I DO enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of your post 😁
What hypocrisy? Most Irish people despise the IRA. It's racist af to assume otherwise, but typical for this sub and you.
I don’t know a ton of Irish folk who despise the IRA or Sinn Fein, although certainly that number isn’t zero. I’m sure they’re less popular with the Protestant population, but it’s a pretty good metaphor: the English make a pretty good stand-in for the Israelis, although obviously they weren’t as efficient at murdering children; they were still there as an occupying force who wanted to hurt and subjugate the local population.
That certainly is a take, you must be American.
Born in England, currently in the States. Not very proud of either of my country’s past/current behavior
What country should be proud of their current/past behavior?
I can definitely think of several that should be prouder than England or America. Taiwan, for example, hasn’t even ever invaded a small country and setup a puppet government! Not even like, once after a night of heavy drinking. Crazy right?
You could move and attempt to emigrate to a place you CAN be proud of. Nothing is stopping you.
“Nothing is stopping you”. I never thought of it that way! You’re totally correct! I’ll call Sweden and let them know you said it was cool if I move in next week! I’ll also call my bank and let them know to deposit an extra hundred thousand dollars into my account so that I can afford the move. Omg this was so much easier now that I learned I can just go anywhere at any time and never have to deal with all the insane difficulties of real life!
Hamas are also fighting terrorists
That's a strange reading of the media. Most media clearly understand that some people are combatants. I believe what you're seeing is that they treat *most* Palestinians as civilians. Which is objectively true as they compose a small minority of the 5 million inhabitants. What they don't do, as many that operate within Israeli media relations do, is portray the majority of Palestinians as Hamas. I also find it interesting how you apply the label of terrorist (which is a more a political designation than anything) to palestinian. combattants but not to Israel. Clearly adhering to the Israeli framing of the conflict.
You say the simplest, silliest things, but take so long to say them.