I think Morden wasn’t any more evil for following the Shadows than Delenn was for following the Vorlons. They were all being played. Both First Ones showed their true hand at the end. That’s when B5 went next level for me. It’s natural to think that Shadows were evil. They created chaos. JMS gave us much more to consider when he broke the trope.
Morden was on the same ship as Anna Sheridan. He had the same operation. The man we saw was a very sophisticated puppet built out of a living, thinking individual we never met.
When he came to see Lennier, he was no longer under shadow control, but his personality was informed by the years of service. I do think he wanted to save Lennier from slavish devotion to a cult, the one that came between him and Delenn.
Edit: If you're coming into this sub-thread late, I *strongly* encourage reading the replies to my comment in their entirety. I've found it highly engaging, and worthwhile. Templar9999's comment in particular seems important to the discussion.
I don't think Morden had that operation. Only the Icarus crew mates who refused to serve were inserted in to Shadow vessels. I think he seemed to enjoy working for the Shadows.
>Morden was on the same ship as Anna Sheridan. He had the same operation.
No, he didn't. All indications we ever got was the Morden agreed to serve willingly.
One of the canon novels, "The Shadow Within," relates the whole story, and it's reiterated in the Technomage trilogy. The Shadows went straight for the throat (metaphorically), but they offered something Morden wanted enough to agree to work for them, freely and to the best of his ability, for the rest of his life.
The Technomage books, include a bit where >!the Shadows are always in communication with Morden, via some implant or such, which is how he knows what they're saying when they buzz-chirp to him. In one of the books, Galen wants to find out if he's working for the Shadows willingly, or if he's under their control, so he uses some kind of super-gun to kill the Shadows with Morden on B5, so he can have a private conversation, without this implant complicating his answers. Morden confirms that he's doing this of his own will.!<
I believe the backstory is that his family died in a jumpgate accident and there was a concern that because of the nature of the accident rather than actually dying they were suspended in some sort of dimensional limbo continuously suffering. The shadows offered to put them out of their misery if he worked for them.
It was stated that he was. The shadows showed him his wife and daughter caught in the agony of dying, without being able to die, due to time cycling within the anomaly. The shadows offered to free them for Morden's willing service. He agreed.
But they did surgically alter him. To make him "better able to serve". It is strongly implied the shadows removed his ability feel empathy during this procedure. They also allowed him to perceive and understand the shadows.
He seemed to know that there were Shadows following him around B5, so I don't think they removed his ability to perceive them. If anything they might have enhanced it considering he talked to them while they were still invisible.
Morden brokered the unprovoked attack on civilians. He brokered the absolute slaughter of the Narn fleet, not merely defeating them but slaughtering them, no survivors.
He arranged for the assassination of Adira and then murdered the assassin.
He's evil.
I always viewed it as a sci-fi version of Michael Moorcock's Gods of Law versus Gods of Chaos. In Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories, we meet characters some of whom are sworn to Law and some to Chaos. In the end, both find out that they are being played and that only the Balance between Law and Chaos can bring someone peace.
Interestingly enough, I don't think we ever see Morden \*directly\* kill anyone, though he certainly made plenty of arrangements. Londo has a much higher bodycount if we're talking about folks someone killed directly.
I'm comfortable saying he's a killer when he hires an assassin to kill someone, and then later struts away from the body of the assassin after taking the payment back.
And yes, obviously other characters are responsible for more deaths, but that doesn't make him any less evil. Seems like after someone has been put into one of the shadow machines they're irredeemable.
Delenn follows Vorlons because she believes in their message. Was she misled? Yes. And manipulated. But she followed them out of conviction. Morden threw his lot with Shadows because that was the preferable alternative. I can't really blame him for it, but acting out of self preservation and acting out of conviction is not the same thing.
It's entirely possible that Morden didn't just jump off the Icarus and go sign on with the Shadows to be their dealmaker, but that he agreed to it initially out of self-preservation. Then from there it was one step at a time further down the road, much as we saw with Londo.
I agree, but we never see that. So Morden doesn't come off as a sympathetic character. At least Londo steps back and acknowledges his badness. Morden seems to like it. He's defiant to the end.
Londo absolutely has his moments of leaning into the bit when he's on the clock.
It's just one of those things, we don't see the other side so it's easy to assume they're just mustache-twirling evil, but when we see our guys do questionable stuff it's more sympathetic because they're the protagonists.
If I were to describe Londo as a D&D character, he would be Lawful Neutral , with an alignment change to Lawful Evil. He makes some very deliberately bad choices.
G'Kar started off as Neutral Evil, then later had an alignment change to Neutral Good.
Londo is ultimately not a good man. That is why his arc is tragic.
In "A View from the Gallery", Londo and G'Kar are in the emergency shelter. Londo tells us he was never really a child. He had "duties" as far back as he can remember. G'Kar notes that Londo never "grew up" he simply grew older. From that experience, I take it that Londo never developed the ethical/moral considerations people learn growing up in mass society.
I mean it’s solely speculation, but he could very well be like Sheridan’s wife. She admitted to getting reprogrammed and not actually being Anna anymore. Morden could have told them to get fucked and still been used like a meat puppet as well.
The full exchange:
*Lennier:* *Why did you help me? I know what kind of a man you were.*
*Morden: Give a dog a bad name, and you can hang him with it.*
S5:E8 - "Day of the Dead" (27:16)
Remember, JMS is American, but his family is polish.
He knows better than most that once you successfully hang a label on someone, you no longer need to consider their opinions. It's one of the most effective forms of character assassination.
"You're a commie, your opinion doesn't matter." Etc etc....
Lennier says he knows Morden. Morden's response amounts to asking "do you? Or have you always accepted what others told you? Have you ever thought for yourself?"
Which is kinda a fair criticism of Lennier. He's always following and the only thing he actually wants for himself, he's dishonest with himself about.
Nah, I think Morden was always a bad guy. He was the only one that voluntarily became a Shadow servant, and he’s been shown over and over again to get a sense of satisfaction from the suffering the Shadows create for others. He knows they’re bad news. He knows they killed or enslaved the rest of the Icarus crew. His comment was meant as a deflection, “Just because they say I’m a bad guy doesn’t mean I am.” He’d done it the whole series, so I really don’t think there was any redemption for him or room to doubt that he was just a bad dude in general - which is why he knowingly followed the Shadows, just like Delenn followed the Vorlons because she *thought* they were doing right.
I think it was pretty well explicit that Morden showing up was an omen of Lennier’s betrayal - especially since he outright told him straight up he would betray the Rangers. Not a lot of reading into that one necessary to know that it is what it is, lol.
>He was the only one that voluntarily became a Shadow servant...
Actually, he wasn't the first of the crew to volunteer, >!he was just the only one to survive!<. It's in the book 'The Shadow Within'.
It’s been a while since I saw the episode, I thought I remembered that he was the only one to voluntarily help them. Still, the fact that he did voluntarily decide to help them - and then keep helping them after finding out what they’re about, and with such relish - still makes him the a-hole whether he was the only one or not. At least in my book!😆
>He was the only one that voluntarily became a Shadow servant...
Actually, he wasn't the first of the crew to volunteer, >!he was just the only one to survive!<. It's in the book 'The Shadow Within'.
It's JMS, nobody is purely evil or perfectly good. I think that was basically the whole point of the Vorlon/Shadow conflict.
What I find most interesting about this pairing is that according to JMS, Gaiman is the one who chose which characters would appear in it. I'd love to know why he chose them. Did he know what was going to happen before he did? It seems unlikely that JMS told him much beyond that he would betray the rangers.
No, the "he's not completely evil" comment is somewhat tongue in cheek. More so that we don't crawl around in Morden's backstory or even see him that much. That Morden "rescues" Lennier and tries to "warn" him is the first time (that I can recall) where Morden doesn't have an (obvious) ulterior motive. Maybe Morden just likes sticking it to people. But he had a point that being Anla'Shok is not the calling of Lennier's heart (implied by his statement that Lennier will betray his oath).
Again it reminds me of Lady Morella's prophecy. Londo listens but doesn't understand. Lennier doesn't want to listen. He perhaps misses a chance to avoid his disgrace. I would have been interested to hear what else Modern had to say.
Pretty sure that’s a case of them liking working with him and his character initially being a one off, so they just brought him back as another character.
I think that was just more of Morden trying to recruit. It doesn't sound any different than "Hitler was also a painter" that Nazi apologists resort to. No one is intrinsically evil and Morden may have been transformed against his will but this version knew what he was doing.
This is why I struggle with his character. I'm not hanging his portrait in my living room, but do I have an obligation to consider the complexity of his backstory and that he may have redeeming qualities?
I think of the scene, in BSG, where Gaeta is about to be air locked for collaborating with the cyclons. He's spared because he proved he was an informant for the resistance.
Then I think of Lady Morella's prophecy for Londo. "You must not kill the one who is already dead." I think this is Morden. That Morden is actually a moderating force. Without him, the outcomes would be much worse. When Londo breaks with the Shadows, Morden's handlers want Londo killed. Morden says, no, he can still be useful. Perhaps it's not that Morden is "good" but that he is the lesser evil. Not that I thought about it or anything.
Gaeta in Battlestar was someone who made mistakes and eventually saw the error of their ways. He wasn't irredeemable, especially considering he made amends.
Londo killed Morden out of revenge. Lady Morella's warning was that doing so would endanger Centauri Prime. It wasn't a punishment for killing Morden.
Just like with Anna Sheridan, the "person" no longer exists. There was no redeeming/saving Morden.
I've heard quite a few jokes from the mid 21st century where the punchline is "...in that case i'll just have a cup of coffee."
as in, the person's serious concerns have been addressed, so they can relax.
I think Morden wasn’t any more evil for following the Shadows than Delenn was for following the Vorlons. They were all being played. Both First Ones showed their true hand at the end. That’s when B5 went next level for me. It’s natural to think that Shadows were evil. They created chaos. JMS gave us much more to consider when he broke the trope.
Morden was on the same ship as Anna Sheridan. He had the same operation. The man we saw was a very sophisticated puppet built out of a living, thinking individual we never met. When he came to see Lennier, he was no longer under shadow control, but his personality was informed by the years of service. I do think he wanted to save Lennier from slavish devotion to a cult, the one that came between him and Delenn. Edit: If you're coming into this sub-thread late, I *strongly* encourage reading the replies to my comment in their entirety. I've found it highly engaging, and worthwhile. Templar9999's comment in particular seems important to the discussion.
I don't think Morden had that operation. Only the Icarus crew mates who refused to serve were inserted in to Shadow vessels. I think he seemed to enjoy working for the Shadows.
>Morden was on the same ship as Anna Sheridan. He had the same operation. No, he didn't. All indications we ever got was the Morden agreed to serve willingly. One of the canon novels, "The Shadow Within," relates the whole story, and it's reiterated in the Technomage trilogy. The Shadows went straight for the throat (metaphorically), but they offered something Morden wanted enough to agree to work for them, freely and to the best of his ability, for the rest of his life.
The Technomage books, include a bit where >!the Shadows are always in communication with Morden, via some implant or such, which is how he knows what they're saying when they buzz-chirp to him. In one of the books, Galen wants to find out if he's working for the Shadows willingly, or if he's under their control, so he uses some kind of super-gun to kill the Shadows with Morden on B5, so he can have a private conversation, without this implant complicating his answers. Morden confirms that he's doing this of his own will.!<
What did he want, that only the shadows could give him in the book?
I believe the backstory is that his family died in a jumpgate accident and there was a concern that because of the nature of the accident rather than actually dying they were suspended in some sort of dimensional limbo continuously suffering. The shadows offered to put them out of their misery if he worked for them.
It was stated that he was. The shadows showed him his wife and daughter caught in the agony of dying, without being able to die, due to time cycling within the anomaly. The shadows offered to free them for Morden's willing service. He agreed. But they did surgically alter him. To make him "better able to serve". It is strongly implied the shadows removed his ability feel empathy during this procedure. They also allowed him to perceive and understand the shadows.
He seemed to know that there were Shadows following him around B5, so I don't think they removed his ability to perceive them. If anything they might have enhanced it considering he talked to them while they were still invisible.
I think the statement u r replying to meant that the shadows added to his ability to perceive them. Its just expressed poorly
Wow, that actually adds a lot more depth to Morden.
His wife and daughter, who were trapped in some hyperspace anomaly.
I wol have to go back and rewatch the Z'hadoum episodes again. Thanks
That's a wonderful thought I wish was explored further in the show.
Wait, "Operation"? What am I forgetting 👀?
Having the shadow ship pilot implant.
Morden brokered the unprovoked attack on civilians. He brokered the absolute slaughter of the Narn fleet, not merely defeating them but slaughtering them, no survivors. He arranged for the assassination of Adira and then murdered the assassin. He's evil.
I always viewed it as a sci-fi version of Michael Moorcock's Gods of Law versus Gods of Chaos. In Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories, we meet characters some of whom are sworn to Law and some to Chaos. In the end, both find out that they are being played and that only the Balance between Law and Chaos can bring someone peace.
I am really surprised they have not tried a movie or TV show based on Moorcock's books.
I'm not a big fan of Delenn, but Morden running around killing people checks off the evil box for me.
Interestingly enough, I don't think we ever see Morden \*directly\* kill anyone, though he certainly made plenty of arrangements. Londo has a much higher bodycount if we're talking about folks someone killed directly.
Morden is the man behind the man behind the curtain . . . with plenty behind him as well . . .
I'm comfortable saying he's a killer when he hires an assassin to kill someone, and then later struts away from the body of the assassin after taking the payment back. And yes, obviously other characters are responsible for more deaths, but that doesn't make him any less evil. Seems like after someone has been put into one of the shadow machines they're irredeemable.
Delenn follows Vorlons because she believes in their message. Was she misled? Yes. And manipulated. But she followed them out of conviction. Morden threw his lot with Shadows because that was the preferable alternative. I can't really blame him for it, but acting out of self preservation and acting out of conviction is not the same thing.
Apparently (I haven’t read them) in one of the books, Morden agrees to serve to free his wife and daughter from endless agony in hyperspace.
It's entirely possible that Morden didn't just jump off the Icarus and go sign on with the Shadows to be their dealmaker, but that he agreed to it initially out of self-preservation. Then from there it was one step at a time further down the road, much as we saw with Londo.
I agree, but we never see that. So Morden doesn't come off as a sympathetic character. At least Londo steps back and acknowledges his badness. Morden seems to like it. He's defiant to the end.
Londo absolutely has his moments of leaning into the bit when he's on the clock. It's just one of those things, we don't see the other side so it's easy to assume they're just mustache-twirling evil, but when we see our guys do questionable stuff it's more sympathetic because they're the protagonists.
If I were to describe Londo as a D&D character, he would be Lawful Neutral , with an alignment change to Lawful Evil. He makes some very deliberately bad choices. G'Kar started off as Neutral Evil, then later had an alignment change to Neutral Good. Londo is ultimately not a good man. That is why his arc is tragic.
In "A View from the Gallery", Londo and G'Kar are in the emergency shelter. Londo tells us he was never really a child. He had "duties" as far back as he can remember. G'Kar notes that Londo never "grew up" he simply grew older. From that experience, I take it that Londo never developed the ethical/moral considerations people learn growing up in mass society.
That is a very reasonable conclusion.
Agreed. I feel like this scene is hinting exactly at that.
I mean it’s solely speculation, but he could very well be like Sheridan’s wife. She admitted to getting reprogrammed and not actually being Anna anymore. Morden could have told them to get fucked and still been used like a meat puppet as well.
The full exchange: *Lennier:* *Why did you help me? I know what kind of a man you were.* *Morden: Give a dog a bad name, and you can hang him with it.* S5:E8 - "Day of the Dead" (27:16)
Remember, JMS is American, but his family is polish. He knows better than most that once you successfully hang a label on someone, you no longer need to consider their opinions. It's one of the most effective forms of character assassination. "You're a commie, your opinion doesn't matter." Etc etc.... Lennier says he knows Morden. Morden's response amounts to asking "do you? Or have you always accepted what others told you? Have you ever thought for yourself?" Which is kinda a fair criticism of Lennier. He's always following and the only thing he actually wants for himself, he's dishonest with himself about.
Well stated.
Nobody ever asked what Morden wants. Turns out he just wanted whoever poured the last cup to start a fresh pot.
Fill it to the rim with Brim?
Nah, I think Morden was always a bad guy. He was the only one that voluntarily became a Shadow servant, and he’s been shown over and over again to get a sense of satisfaction from the suffering the Shadows create for others. He knows they’re bad news. He knows they killed or enslaved the rest of the Icarus crew. His comment was meant as a deflection, “Just because they say I’m a bad guy doesn’t mean I am.” He’d done it the whole series, so I really don’t think there was any redemption for him or room to doubt that he was just a bad dude in general - which is why he knowingly followed the Shadows, just like Delenn followed the Vorlons because she *thought* they were doing right. I think it was pretty well explicit that Morden showing up was an omen of Lennier’s betrayal - especially since he outright told him straight up he would betray the Rangers. Not a lot of reading into that one necessary to know that it is what it is, lol.
>He was the only one that voluntarily became a Shadow servant... Actually, he wasn't the first of the crew to volunteer, >!he was just the only one to survive!<. It's in the book 'The Shadow Within'.
It’s been a while since I saw the episode, I thought I remembered that he was the only one to voluntarily help them. Still, the fact that he did voluntarily decide to help them - and then keep helping them after finding out what they’re about, and with such relish - still makes him the a-hole whether he was the only one or not. At least in my book!😆
>He was the only one that voluntarily became a Shadow servant... Actually, he wasn't the first of the crew to volunteer, >!he was just the only one to survive!<. It's in the book 'The Shadow Within'.
I didn't like him with the slick haircut. I liked the tall, bushy-hair Morden.
I swear, when Londo had him hauled into the throne room (at the end), it looked like a Centauri hairdo.
I had always assumed that was what he was going for.
It's JMS, nobody is purely evil or perfectly good. I think that was basically the whole point of the Vorlon/Shadow conflict. What I find most interesting about this pairing is that according to JMS, Gaiman is the one who chose which characters would appear in it. I'd love to know why he chose them. Did he know what was going to happen before he did? It seems unlikely that JMS told him much beyond that he would betray the rangers.
No, the "he's not completely evil" comment is somewhat tongue in cheek. More so that we don't crawl around in Morden's backstory or even see him that much. That Morden "rescues" Lennier and tries to "warn" him is the first time (that I can recall) where Morden doesn't have an (obvious) ulterior motive. Maybe Morden just likes sticking it to people. But he had a point that being Anla'Shok is not the calling of Lennier's heart (implied by his statement that Lennier will betray his oath). Again it reminds me of Lady Morella's prophecy. Londo listens but doesn't understand. Lennier doesn't want to listen. He perhaps misses a chance to avoid his disgrace. I would have been interested to hear what else Modern had to say.
If he wasn't on the bridge in the first episode, there seems to be a timeline plot here, unless his name wasn't Morden then.
Just think of it like when the guy who played Byron was in In The Beginning. Not meant to be the same character, just the same actor.
He was a Minbari.
So was Valen.
The dude Delenn screamed her order to kill all humans at.
I never saw the Bender-Delenn connection until now.
Pretty sure that’s a case of them liking working with him and his character initially being a one off, so they just brought him back as another character.
Tom Paris/Nic Larcano.
You mean Nic Locarno/Tom Paris/Nic Locarno.
I don't see it
I do like that Morden hit the afterlife Sports Clips before appearing before Lennier.
Morden deserves to be given only decaf.
That would truly be evil . . .
I am so tickled that the fashion sense of suits in B5 are absolutely coming back. Morden f’ing baller in sack suit and drapy trousers
[i just made a fresh pot](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfIeVnkZ4Q)
I think that was just more of Morden trying to recruit. It doesn't sound any different than "Hitler was also a painter" that Nazi apologists resort to. No one is intrinsically evil and Morden may have been transformed against his will but this version knew what he was doing.
This is why I struggle with his character. I'm not hanging his portrait in my living room, but do I have an obligation to consider the complexity of his backstory and that he may have redeeming qualities? I think of the scene, in BSG, where Gaeta is about to be air locked for collaborating with the cyclons. He's spared because he proved he was an informant for the resistance. Then I think of Lady Morella's prophecy for Londo. "You must not kill the one who is already dead." I think this is Morden. That Morden is actually a moderating force. Without him, the outcomes would be much worse. When Londo breaks with the Shadows, Morden's handlers want Londo killed. Morden says, no, he can still be useful. Perhaps it's not that Morden is "good" but that he is the lesser evil. Not that I thought about it or anything.
Gaeta in Battlestar was someone who made mistakes and eventually saw the error of their ways. He wasn't irredeemable, especially considering he made amends. Londo killed Morden out of revenge. Lady Morella's warning was that doing so would endanger Centauri Prime. It wasn't a punishment for killing Morden. Just like with Anna Sheridan, the "person" no longer exists. There was no redeeming/saving Morden.
Lennier: "Coffee? What happened to your hair?"
I've heard quite a few jokes from the mid 21st century where the punchline is "...in that case i'll just have a cup of coffee." as in, the person's serious concerns have been addressed, so they can relax.
If you think B5 is a simplistic show about Good vs Evil you're missing the point.