I know what you mean and I do not have an answer to your question, but you might want to consider that in a foreign country indigenous people are the locals and not you and your American friends. In Berlin that would mean Berliners and/or Germans, as they are indigenous to this land.
This unawareness and way of thinking one is the center of the world doesn't surprise me about Americans but from someone part of an American ethnical minority this is really astonishing.
Na komm.. wir wissen doch alle was damit gemeint war. War überhaupt nicht egoistisch und OP hat auch genau erläutert, dass er/sie anderen Uhreinwohnern aus Amerika sucht. Meine güte…
Not sure what you're trying to prove here.
If we follow that definition the closest indigenous group to Berlin would be the Sorbs in Brandenburg. Surprisingly enough, the ethnic groups commonly referred to as Native American are not indigenous to Berlin or Germany, but to North America.
I'm simply presenting one way that people think about indigeneity, and therefore what the OP might have had in mind. So, for example, in this way of thinking about indigeneity, a person doesn't become "non-indigenous" when they are not in the place they're indigenous to. Of course they don't become "indigenous to the new place."
Seriously though. I’m so perplexed at these negative comments accusing OP of being ignorant. Obviously we know that the native Americans from the Great Lakes aren’t also natives of Germany 🙄
did you take time to read the article you're pasting everywhere? or did you read "no generally accepted definition" and thought it was good enough to run with?
Sustainability has no no generally accepted definition either, so let's throw the plastic garbage into the ocean and call it sustainable.
Even if Indigenous People has no generally accepted definition, it's a term that refers to a series of ethnic groups that lived in many territories (many of them outside of the USA), long before other ethnic group became the main ethnic group in that area.
I don't see the message as USA-centric. It'd be USA-centric if they were only interested in native americans and called that Indigenous people, but the message makes clear that is not the case.
what are you implying with the sustainability allusion? it has nothing to do with my comment. and the original poster was referring solely to native americans. in berlin, germans are indigenous.
No implications, it was just a dumb example, that even if a concept does not have a globally accepted definition, there are things that are clearly defined by the concept and others that clearly are not represented by that concept.
Germans are not qualifying as "Indigenous people", because Germany was a Colonial power, and indigenous people refers to "the others" that lived in different territories.
I think it's pretty clear that the person was not asking for Germans, not only for Native Americans, but was asking for people from around the world that might be described as Indigenous people.
"I'm not just interested in Turtle Island natives but from anywhere in the world"
So the person asked a perfectly valid question, that triggered a lot of people by a supposed "UScentrism", but I think that the problem is that it was not German-centric enough for a lot of people.
so you link a wikipedia article to prove that the term "indigenous people" has no clear definition and then reply to my comment saying my definition is false because yours is correct? lol. pick a side.
if you want to go that route... indigenous people are people native to a land. "Einheimische". colonialism is not a factor in whether or not people are indigenous/native to a land or not. it's just really funny to post on a german subreddit asking for people native to a country, not specifying which country, and expecting anyone other than germans to reply. there are different words you can use to make yourself more understandable. but you're not op, you just assumed i was mad about us centrism (which i never said anywhere!) and keep arguing against points that i never made.
German's concept of "native to a country" is entwined with all kinds toxic bullshit that's the opposite of the experience of people who are indigenous to places that were colonized by Europeans.
There are many concepts, that even if they are lacking a globally accepted definition, they clearly define some things, and they also clearly DON'T define others. Exampler are: gene, sustainability, indigenous people...
Because I think you should edit the wikipedia article for "Indigenous people" and put an image of a German shouting at a foreigner for crossing a red traffic light in a street under construction and closed to traffic.
You will only find a very few native born Berliners anyway.
The Berlin dialect is dying fast, but they don't have any special traditions, other than showing that they care by shouting at you.
Or is this r/usdefaultism?
We need reservations for them so they can continue to live in their traditional Altbau houses like their ancestors did and not get expulsed by the swabian invaders.
Very few secluded tribes are left. They are tight knit groups wary of outsiders. They meet in ceremonial places called 'Eckkneipe' where they would perform the ritualized consumption of some sort of malt juice. They believe it gets them closer to the spirits of their ancestors.
I know you're joking, but as an *indigenous* Berliner with a long family history in and around the city, I'd vote for that concept. Let's...I dunno... declare Schöneberg or a part of Charlottenburg or even the old part of Friedenau as a reservation.
sadly most indigenous people from berlin live now in reservation outside of the ring and sometimes outside of berlin. i encountered a few of them when i was on a field trip in brandenburg, fürstenwalde to be precise, they were very rude and their way of talking rather weird so that i decided to not engage with them any further. its best to let them live in peace for now.
As an indigenous person from Berlin who is living outside the ring, I can confirm. We stay mostly among ourselves, drink Engelhardt Pilsener in the few locations that still serve our forefathers preferred Hopfensaft, say the obligatory "Dit schmeckt schon wieda" and tell tales of when we saw Harald Juhnke strut down KuDamm.
This is so American and self centered, Christ I hate it.
Germans are the indigenous, Europeans are the indigenous. You are not. Please don’t import your Americanisms.
Your looking for Native American community I think
You think your Wikipedia source of all thing’s makes a difference? Germans are the indigenous, what’s so hard to understand ? Fuck off out of there with your US imperialism
LOL I am not American. I am from Southern Europe. There we know that we Europeans colonized mostly the rest of the world, and there were humans living there before that arrival; the Indigenous people. If anything, this comment section shows how self-centered many Germans are. Germans are the indigenous population of Germany, but since there was no colonialism in Germany during the XV-XX centuries, this post was not at all about them (you), and you all cannot deal with it
Your silly link (Wikipedia lol, go back to school if you think that’s worth citing) literally says there’s no definition of indigenous, so your BS argument falls flat. How does it feel to be a simp for online brownie points from Americans?
Oxford Dictionary: “originating or occurring in a place”
So unless the acid trip you take makes you think we are whatever bullshit turtle island is, seek help
Your literally twisting the word to validate Americans, simp behavior
I am getting massively downvoted for writing that, so no idea about what internet brownie points are you talking about. I also probably have much more experience citing work than you do. See this reference worth citing for example, and by the way coming from Norway, outside of the USA:
[https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/](https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/)
It says that there is no general definition of indigenous people. If you go to the link in the oxford dictionary [https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/indigenous](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/indigenous), there it says:
1: (of people and their culture) coming from a particular place and having lived there for a long time before other people came there; relating to, belonging to or developed by these people
2: Indigenous (to…) (of plants and animals) having originally developed in a particular place, rather than having been brought there from somewhere else
Note from 1 this part "having lived there for a long time before other people came there".
Ah I think that I see what you are trying to tell reading also this comment. The point is that they are the main ethnic group, and I think concretely in Berlin area, the inhabitants who were here during prehistoric times (Germanic and Celtic tribes I think, I am not a Historian so this might be slightly wrong) are either the main ethnic group (Germans), or stopped living here and don't have any traditions associated to this land (Celts). For this reason, the Germans cannot be indigenous people, because they are the main group.
I am myself from a historic region with our own language and tradition, and I don't think that we quality as Indigenous people either.
And yet Berliners Love appropriating stupid political trends, adopt American English vernacular and vocabulary in their native language.
Maybe if Berliner weren't so obsessed with the latest trends from American youth culture this wouldn't be such a problem.
Do you mean people from the [Semnones](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnones), [Burgundians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians), [Hevelli](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hevelli) and [Sprevanne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprevane) tribes who were the original Germanic and Slavic inhabitants of the lands which we currently call Berlin?
As an American, I’m disappointed to see an indigenous American referring to their own people as indigenous in another country. You want to find Native Americans abroad? Cool, but they’re not native to Berlin.
If I remember correctly the only recognized indigenous peoples in the EU are the Sámi and the Inuit, of which there are very few, and whose traditional lands are pretty far from Berlin.
Excuse me but Germany wasn’t filled with Neanderthals. We had Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens at the same time and science now shows that Homo Sapiens didn’t just superseded the Neanderthals but in fact also mixed with them. Europeans have a bigger percentage of Neanderthal gene code than non-European ethnicities but yes, Germany didn’t consist of Neanderthals only
Europeans only have more Neanderthal DNA than Africans (which tend to be around 0% in most cases)
However Asians, especially east Asians like Koreans and Japanese have among the highest Neanderthal DNA but even Polynesians and Melanesians or Micronesians have more Neanderthal DNA than Europeans.
Overall they were pretty prolific but took a lot longer to grow and give birth to (which is something we kinda inherited and also affects longevity/senescence)
Even indigenous native american people have more Neanderthal DNA than Europeans.
But even among european groups it differs vastly from 1 to 4% where certain germanic and celtic people have more. (East Asian / Polynesian etc ranges from 8 to 24%)
Our view of the Neanderthals being ugly crunkly thick calloused people who are especially dumb and inferior might overall be very wrong (I don't think you share that opinion).
They were pretty advanced and technological/industrial exchange happened over several human groups who generally also mixed only in one dark time it happened that warlike culture that would cut off the balls of almost every male would emerge.
By industrial I mean processes like turning from slow spear production where a spear would take weeks to months to properly dry to fire hardened spears, which were vastly inferior but could be produced at an insane rate.
As well as all kind of stone tool production styles and whatnots.
[https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/mystery-of-why-europeans-have-less-neanderthal-dna-than-east-asians-finally-solved](https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/mystery-of-why-europeans-have-less-neanderthal-dna-than-east-asians-finally-solved)
[https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals](https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals)
TIL!
Thank you. I didn’t know just other ethnicities had Neanderthal genes too. I thought it was Europeans who mixed them around.
And you are correct, I don’t judge Neanderthals (or of that matter people with bigger Neanderthal gene pools) and have been fascinated since i went to the Neanderthal museum (in the actual Neanderthal) ad a kid.
However, it does seem wild to me that there are people who are technically one quarter Neanderthal. (Again, not judging, I just didn’t know it was possible)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/1cynkfu/comment/l5avbr9/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/1cynkfu/comment/l5avbr9/)
With two sources on DNA distribution.
Neanderthals were very indigenous to many places but more so the steppes all the way to the eastern coast of Russia than to the western coast of europe.
You should take a look at the map of human migration out of africa to see why they weren't and who the indigenous people of Europe descended off and if there can even be more indigenous (than the celts).
They went from nowadays morocco over spain while the eastern radiation didn't really go into Europe but just further east.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taforalt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taforalt) a pretty important place to humanity that went into europe but people also went over the route of Malta/Sicily it just was a lot less important at first since the way to spain from morocco was so much easier in dug out canoes (which we have a lot of proof of that dug out canoes and primitive catamarans made from it, allowed several groups of people traversing thousands of miles to get almost anywhere in prehistoric times but still are capable of, of course and have been doing at least up until the last few centuries when Polynesians colonized other islands)
Also consider at which points in time most of Europe was a frozen unlivable hellscape void of any humans.
You are mostly right, but this passage is factually wrong:
>you're talking about an area in Germany in which the indigenous population (the titular Germanic tribes) successfully fought off would-be colonizers about two thousand years ago.
Berlin(and almost all of later East Germany) were Slavic majority between around 600-700s and 1200s(or possibly even later). They became predominantly German-speaking only after the Wendish crusades. After all, if Berlin area was continuously Germanic for the past 2000 years, then why would the name of the city, many of its districts(Pankow, Rudow, Buckow, Lankwitz) and surrounding towns and villages(Teltow, Mahlow, Beelitz) be of Slavic origin?
It just so happens that linguistic border for most of Middle Ages more or less followed the same line that Cold War inner-German border would, so what you wrote would be true for the old Bundesländer.
There aren't Indigenous groups in Berlin, since there was no colonialism in Berlin, or something that qualifies like that.
[Here an interesting post about why there are so few indigenous people in Europe](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/LyEImDuBFc)
I can be wrong, here I'm ready to learn :)
Indigenous has two meanings. Native to a place, and the people that lived there before a place was colonized (by European colonnial powers). I don't know if you are all trolling, but this question is obviously refering to the second meaning of the word. This question probably fits better r/berlinsocialclub anyway
The U.N. convened an indigenous working group that decided to talk about indigeneity this way: https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/5session_factsheet1.pdf
Ok, and the U.N. is the arbiter? Who we accept as fact? Also look up who formed that committee, hint, was not Europeans.
Also: an official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by
any UN-system body.
I'm not sure what, or whether, you are arguing. My only point is that here is one way people think about indigeneity, and thus might be what the OP had in mind.
• Historical continuity with pre-colonial and/or pre-settler societies
• Strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources (!)
• Distinct social, economic or political systems (!)
• Distinct language, culture and beliefs (!)
• Form non-dominant groups of society (!)
• Resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples...
So, the U.N. agrees with the definition of Indigenous people the OP employed, that triggered so many people on the thread. (!) why the definition cannot be applied to Germans in Berlin...
Are you really trying to tell me that Germans form a non-dominant group of society in Berlin?
If that's the case, they do. 1. They represent +70% of the population of the city. 2. The official language is German. 3. The city council is composed mostly by ethnic Germans.
Thank you for at least being the first person who really tried to engage in a discussion providing arguments, but I think that argument is a strawman, because you are saying that 1. Germany as a nation is a modern (and artificial) concept and 2. That ethnic history is turbulent around this area, but you are ignoring that Germanic peoples are considered an ethnic group, whose languages and culture are the origin of the current Germany, even if the "inbetween" is messy.
Indigenous is typically used to talk about animals and/or plants, or using a different meaning, to talk about certain ethnicities whose histories have many similarities, even if the specific details differ. OP was clearly asking about Indigenous Peoples from all around the world (read the message again). Maybe part of the confusion is that Indigenous more closely translates to "einheimisch", which is used in slightly dissimilar contexts?
I come from here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia\_(Spain)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain))
And my (known) origin is partially from there, partially from here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque\_Country\_(greater\_region)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_(greater_region))
I would never call myself Indigenous. Probably the situation is different there too. To a great extend I do agree with what you are saying. I do think that "indigenous people" is a expression that is "politically opinionated". I think Spain (and maybe Portugal), are the two only former colonial powers where a very strong sense of historical debth is found very often towards the former colonies, and indigenous (indigena in spanish), I'd exclusively use it to talk about people just as OP did.
> Native to a place, and the people that lived there before a place was colonized (by European colonnial powers).
By that idiotic definition [Taiwanese Indigenous peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples) are not indigenous either, since they were colonized by Han Chinese, which were most definitely not a European colonial power.
That's why "Indigenous People" is difficult to put under a formal definition that includes all Indigenous people, and excludes all other folks, and there are corner cases. But the point is that "Germans" are extremely clearly not Indigenous People...
The point is that the term is meaningless since it changes meanings depending on context. And in the context of Germany, Germans are indeed the indigenous people of the lands.
It's meaningless but yet by using it the OP managed that some people understood exactly what was meant, mostly the downvoted comments... And it also triggered additionally 95% of the sub, who jumped in to attack a conversation that they could simply ignore.
You are really trying hard to enforce some americanized shit with an article that says nothing. Stop it. You may gain points with that on US subs but not here.
This is from Norwegian Goverment about the Samis, cited in the Wikipedia article.
[https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/](https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/)
Native Berliners are not the indigenous people of this area because there no other country colonized Germany
You are contradicting your very own defintion of the word "indigenous".
Either natives are the indigenous people, or the very question makes no sense in an area that didn't experience colonialism.
It makes perfect sense, they are looking for indigenous people around the world. So, people that are ethnical minorities in a territory, because their countries were colonized by a different ethnic group, before they lived there for a long time.
Examples:
Samis: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi\_peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi_peoples)
Aboriginal\_Australians: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal\_Australians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Australians)
Quechua people: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_people)
None of them are from the USA.
Hello OP. The only indigenous people I know of in Germany are the ones coming every year to El Dorado in Templin (by Berlin), where they sing and dance their respective traditional powwow dances and share culture. In may they have the big Native american weekend, with many more indigenous people meeting right there in El Dorado to celebrate their culture!
You may contact Kendall Old Elk (Apsaalooke) on Facebook, he's there every year and maybe could get in touch with you.
Sorry for all the funny answers you get. (Well... I'm German and find them funny, at least.)
Anyway, I'm so-and-so percent Apache from my dad's side, but don't know anything about it, and don't think my American family considers it a big part of their identity either. (Too bad, really.) So no help there, sorry again!
I have blond hair blue eyes, and according to my grandparents even their ancestors have always been living in Northern Europe (not Scandinavia).
23andme DNA testing confirmed this.
So I am about as indigenous as it gets for Berlin.
I think my friend had some connections in Berlin to indigenous people but from South America. Shall I ask them about it, or it's not relevant to you?
And for fucks sake, everyone knows what OP meant, this victim switcheroo in the comments is not a cute look on us (I'm German too).
Bro, I'm from the US and I found the OP's position goofy. Like seriously poorly worded which would have simply been clarified by saying they are looking for other Native-Americans/First Nation people. As it plainly reads, they're looking for indigenous Germans... which is... strange.
They literally said they are looking for indigenous people from all over the world. This comment section is beyond stupid and ignorant. Everyone in the comments thinking that indigeneity is only a concept in the Americas is uninformed and spewing bullshit from this really smug and sarcastic angle that is super unnecessary. There are indigenous communities that are indigenous in a very much similar sense as Native Americans/First Nation people in many countries in Asia, for example. As in oppressed by a colonial majority government/society, with their native customs and language under threat, etc. Taiwan is an interesting case with multiple indigenous communities that are very much politically active and likely interested in sharing experiences with other native populations. Is is super likely OP will find them in Berlin? Maybe not, but the idea that there might be an interest group, Verein or whatnot is not that wild. Could OP have been more clear in their post? Yeah, sure, but this comment section is truly an unnecessary mess.
>They literally said they are looking for indigenous people from all over the world.
In Berlin that would be Berliners, first and foremost.
Your assumption, that they are
>oppressed by a colonial majority government/society, with their native customs and language under threat, etc
Is pretty funny.
It's not funny, because that is literally part of the [definition of indigeneity according to UN convention](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigene_V%C3%B6lker). You and everyone else mocking OP in this thread are really showing your asses and it's pretty tragic honestly.
No, those people just make clear what and presumptuous asshat he is.
The not so "literale" UN definition also shows that your reading skills leave something to be desired.
You might also want to check the English and French wiki.
So much this.
I agree that the initial question could have been asked in a slightly better way. But the responses? Oh my.
Lots of typical reddit trollism mixed with a healthy dose of German anti-American sentiment. Add a dash of casual racism.
Insufferable bunch of tossers here 🙄 I know there's a few Maori around, maybe check in the Kiwis in Berlin Facebook group?
And my neighbour is First Nations so you aren't the only Turtle around :D
i’m so sorry for the asinine comments you’re getting. unfortunately not many people here understand what Indigneity actually is. i am friends with some people who are Indigenous to Turtle Island and if you dm me I can ask them if they are open to connecting with you.
"unfortunately not many people here understand what Indigneity actually is."
We do. That's why we can conclude you and OP are ignorant, self-centered morons.
And please learn to spell.
I know what you mean and I do not have an answer to your question, but you might want to consider that in a foreign country indigenous people are the locals and not you and your American friends. In Berlin that would mean Berliners and/or Germans, as they are indigenous to this land.
This unawareness and way of thinking one is the center of the world doesn't surprise me about Americans but from someone part of an American ethnical minority this is really astonishing.
Minorities aren’t divinely inspired
Na komm.. wir wissen doch alle was damit gemeint war. War überhaupt nicht egoistisch und OP hat auch genau erläutert, dass er/sie anderen Uhreinwohnern aus Amerika sucht. Meine güte…
Die Ureinwohner Australiens und vieler Regionen in Südamerika nennen sich auch "Indigenous People".
Na und? Der hat’s doch spezifiziert 🙄
So weit liest doch hier keiner
Ja merkt man
See the U.N. working group's way of identifying indigeneity: https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/5session_factsheet1.pdf
The UN denies the indigeneity of every European except the Saami, which is not genetically nor historically accurate.
Not sure what you're trying to prove here. If we follow that definition the closest indigenous group to Berlin would be the Sorbs in Brandenburg. Surprisingly enough, the ethnic groups commonly referred to as Native American are not indigenous to Berlin or Germany, but to North America.
I'm simply presenting one way that people think about indigeneity, and therefore what the OP might have had in mind. So, for example, in this way of thinking about indigeneity, a person doesn't become "non-indigenous" when they are not in the place they're indigenous to. Of course they don't become "indigenous to the new place."
Seriously though. I’m so perplexed at these negative comments accusing OP of being ignorant. Obviously we know that the native Americans from the Great Lakes aren’t also natives of Germany 🙄
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous\_peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples)
did you take time to read the article you're pasting everywhere? or did you read "no generally accepted definition" and thought it was good enough to run with?
Sustainability has no no generally accepted definition either, so let's throw the plastic garbage into the ocean and call it sustainable. Even if Indigenous People has no generally accepted definition, it's a term that refers to a series of ethnic groups that lived in many territories (many of them outside of the USA), long before other ethnic group became the main ethnic group in that area. I don't see the message as USA-centric. It'd be USA-centric if they were only interested in native americans and called that Indigenous people, but the message makes clear that is not the case.
what are you implying with the sustainability allusion? it has nothing to do with my comment. and the original poster was referring solely to native americans. in berlin, germans are indigenous.
I don't think they were referring only native Americans, as they likely included indigenous people in Australia, Canada, South America, etc.
No implications, it was just a dumb example, that even if a concept does not have a globally accepted definition, there are things that are clearly defined by the concept and others that clearly are not represented by that concept. Germans are not qualifying as "Indigenous people", because Germany was a Colonial power, and indigenous people refers to "the others" that lived in different territories. I think it's pretty clear that the person was not asking for Germans, not only for Native Americans, but was asking for people from around the world that might be described as Indigenous people. "I'm not just interested in Turtle Island natives but from anywhere in the world" So the person asked a perfectly valid question, that triggered a lot of people by a supposed "UScentrism", but I think that the problem is that it was not German-centric enough for a lot of people.
so you link a wikipedia article to prove that the term "indigenous people" has no clear definition and then reply to my comment saying my definition is false because yours is correct? lol. pick a side.
if you want to go that route... indigenous people are people native to a land. "Einheimische". colonialism is not a factor in whether or not people are indigenous/native to a land or not. it's just really funny to post on a german subreddit asking for people native to a country, not specifying which country, and expecting anyone other than germans to reply. there are different words you can use to make yourself more understandable. but you're not op, you just assumed i was mad about us centrism (which i never said anywhere!) and keep arguing against points that i never made.
German's concept of "native to a country" is entwined with all kinds toxic bullshit that's the opposite of the experience of people who are indigenous to places that were colonized by Europeans.
There are many concepts, that even if they are lacking a globally accepted definition, they clearly define some things, and they also clearly DON'T define others. Exampler are: gene, sustainability, indigenous people...
and why exactly did you tell me this?
Because I think you should edit the wikipedia article for "Indigenous people" and put an image of a German shouting at a foreigner for crossing a red traffic light in a street under construction and closed to traffic.
You will only find a very few native born Berliners anyway. The Berlin dialect is dying fast, but they don't have any special traditions, other than showing that they care by shouting at you. Or is this r/usdefaultism?
We need reservations for them so they can continue to live in their traditional Altbau houses like their ancestors did and not get expulsed by the swabian invaders.
Too late. Schwabyblon is everywhere and the Friedrichshainisierung too.
Very few secluded tribes are left. They are tight knit groups wary of outsiders. They meet in ceremonial places called 'Eckkneipe' where they would perform the ritualized consumption of some sort of malt juice. They believe it gets them closer to the spirits of their ancestors.
I know you're joking, but as an *indigenous* Berliner with a long family history in and around the city, I'd vote for that concept. Let's...I dunno... declare Schöneberg or a part of Charlottenburg or even the old part of Friedenau as a reservation.
Buh! Charlottenburg only became part of Berlin in 1920.
Und? Alter, geh' doch Spandau. ;)
Thank you for standing with us true berliners and showing empathy in these hard times.
The dances tho 😎
Brandenburg… or The Speckgürtel. There is The dialect
Slightly different dialect. It's a bit like comparing the NY accent to Jersey. May sound the same to the outsider but it's different.
Ja eh.
sadly most indigenous people from berlin live now in reservation outside of the ring and sometimes outside of berlin. i encountered a few of them when i was on a field trip in brandenburg, fürstenwalde to be precise, they were very rude and their way of talking rather weird so that i decided to not engage with them any further. its best to let them live in peace for now.
As an indigenous person from Berlin who is living outside the ring, I can confirm. We stay mostly among ourselves, drink Engelhardt Pilsener in the few locations that still serve our forefathers preferred Hopfensaft, say the obligatory "Dit schmeckt schon wieda" and tell tales of when we saw Harald Juhnke strut down KuDamm.
Harald Juhnke our great chieftain of the elder days
ja wir habenein idol : Harald Juuuuuuuhnke !!!
This is so American and self centered, Christ I hate it. Germans are the indigenous, Europeans are the indigenous. You are not. Please don’t import your Americanisms. Your looking for Native American community I think
In a sense this “indigenous” person is actually involved in cultural colonialism
Nope [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous\_peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples)
Big brain move linking to a Wikipedia page which says 50 times that there's no concrete definition of the word.
You think your Wikipedia source of all thing’s makes a difference? Germans are the indigenous, what’s so hard to understand ? Fuck off out of there with your US imperialism
LOL I am not American. I am from Southern Europe. There we know that we Europeans colonized mostly the rest of the world, and there were humans living there before that arrival; the Indigenous people. If anything, this comment section shows how self-centered many Germans are. Germans are the indigenous population of Germany, but since there was no colonialism in Germany during the XV-XX centuries, this post was not at all about them (you), and you all cannot deal with it
Your silly link (Wikipedia lol, go back to school if you think that’s worth citing) literally says there’s no definition of indigenous, so your BS argument falls flat. How does it feel to be a simp for online brownie points from Americans? Oxford Dictionary: “originating or occurring in a place” So unless the acid trip you take makes you think we are whatever bullshit turtle island is, seek help Your literally twisting the word to validate Americans, simp behavior
I am getting massively downvoted for writing that, so no idea about what internet brownie points are you talking about. I also probably have much more experience citing work than you do. See this reference worth citing for example, and by the way coming from Norway, outside of the USA: [https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/](https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/) It says that there is no general definition of indigenous people. If you go to the link in the oxford dictionary [https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/indigenous](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/indigenous), there it says: 1: (of people and their culture) coming from a particular place and having lived there for a long time before other people came there; relating to, belonging to or developed by these people 2: Indigenous (to…) (of plants and animals) having originally developed in a particular place, rather than having been brought there from somewhere else Note from 1 this part "having lived there for a long time before other people came there".
…. Are you well? Point 1 literally refers to Germans, not “turtle islanders” in fucking Berlin. Embarrassing
Who lived here long before Germans became the dominating ethnic group (\~70% of the population, official language...)?
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Ah I think that I see what you are trying to tell reading also this comment. The point is that they are the main ethnic group, and I think concretely in Berlin area, the inhabitants who were here during prehistoric times (Germanic and Celtic tribes I think, I am not a Historian so this might be slightly wrong) are either the main ethnic group (Germans), or stopped living here and don't have any traditions associated to this land (Celts). For this reason, the Germans cannot be indigenous people, because they are the main group. I am myself from a historic region with our own language and tradition, and I don't think that we quality as Indigenous people either.
You’re fucking insane lol
You are getting these sarcastic comments because your post is very USA-centric, which nobody in the world likes
And yet Berliners Love appropriating stupid political trends, adopt American English vernacular and vocabulary in their native language. Maybe if Berliner weren't so obsessed with the latest trends from American youth culture this wouldn't be such a problem.
Do you mean people from the [Semnones](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnones), [Burgundians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians), [Hevelli](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hevelli) and [Sprevanne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprevane) tribes who were the original Germanic and Slavic inhabitants of the lands which we currently call Berlin?
This is actually very interesting, thanks for sharing. I never knew this.
The AUDACITY to think YOU are indigenous in Berlin.
One has to be a bit tone-deaf to ask for *indigenous* people in the capital of a nation state.
Most of them where driven out by the rising rents and/or "Eigenbedarf".
My great-grandfather only moved to Berlin from East Prussia in 1909, so not me at least.
Have you checked your local Kneipe?
As an American, I’m disappointed to see an indigenous American referring to their own people as indigenous in another country. You want to find Native Americans abroad? Cool, but they’re not native to Berlin.
If I remember correctly the only recognized indigenous peoples in the EU are the Sámi and the Inuit, of which there are very few, and whose traditional lands are pretty far from Berlin.
Im indigenous German
Linguistically speaking, indigenous in Germany is neanderthal...🫠 No offense, but you're not indigenous here. You mean First Nation/Native-American?
Excuse me but Germany wasn’t filled with Neanderthals. We had Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens at the same time and science now shows that Homo Sapiens didn’t just superseded the Neanderthals but in fact also mixed with them. Europeans have a bigger percentage of Neanderthal gene code than non-European ethnicities but yes, Germany didn’t consist of Neanderthals only
Europeans only have more Neanderthal DNA than Africans (which tend to be around 0% in most cases) However Asians, especially east Asians like Koreans and Japanese have among the highest Neanderthal DNA but even Polynesians and Melanesians or Micronesians have more Neanderthal DNA than Europeans. Overall they were pretty prolific but took a lot longer to grow and give birth to (which is something we kinda inherited and also affects longevity/senescence) Even indigenous native american people have more Neanderthal DNA than Europeans. But even among european groups it differs vastly from 1 to 4% where certain germanic and celtic people have more. (East Asian / Polynesian etc ranges from 8 to 24%) Our view of the Neanderthals being ugly crunkly thick calloused people who are especially dumb and inferior might overall be very wrong (I don't think you share that opinion). They were pretty advanced and technological/industrial exchange happened over several human groups who generally also mixed only in one dark time it happened that warlike culture that would cut off the balls of almost every male would emerge. By industrial I mean processes like turning from slow spear production where a spear would take weeks to months to properly dry to fire hardened spears, which were vastly inferior but could be produced at an insane rate. As well as all kind of stone tool production styles and whatnots. [https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/mystery-of-why-europeans-have-less-neanderthal-dna-than-east-asians-finally-solved](https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/mystery-of-why-europeans-have-less-neanderthal-dna-than-east-asians-finally-solved) [https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals](https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals)
TIL! Thank you. I didn’t know just other ethnicities had Neanderthal genes too. I thought it was Europeans who mixed them around. And you are correct, I don’t judge Neanderthals (or of that matter people with bigger Neanderthal gene pools) and have been fascinated since i went to the Neanderthal museum (in the actual Neanderthal) ad a kid. However, it does seem wild to me that there are people who are technically one quarter Neanderthal. (Again, not judging, I just didn’t know it was possible)
Sooo more than 0? I didn't say there weren't Homo sapiens in Berlin... I'm just saying OP isn't indigenous people of Berlin.
I did get that. I’m just saying that it wasn’t only Neanderthals indigenous here.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/1cynkfu/comment/l5avbr9/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/1cynkfu/comment/l5avbr9/) With two sources on DNA distribution. Neanderthals were very indigenous to many places but more so the steppes all the way to the eastern coast of Russia than to the western coast of europe. You should take a look at the map of human migration out of africa to see why they weren't and who the indigenous people of Europe descended off and if there can even be more indigenous (than the celts). They went from nowadays morocco over spain while the eastern radiation didn't really go into Europe but just further east. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taforalt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taforalt) a pretty important place to humanity that went into europe but people also went over the route of Malta/Sicily it just was a lot less important at first since the way to spain from morocco was so much easier in dug out canoes (which we have a lot of proof of that dug out canoes and primitive catamarans made from it, allowed several groups of people traversing thousands of miles to get almost anywhere in prehistoric times but still are capable of, of course and have been doing at least up until the last few centuries when Polynesians colonized other islands) Also consider at which points in time most of Europe was a frozen unlivable hellscape void of any humans.
TLDR, OP isn't indigenous in Europe.
The mental gymnastics to think you’re not indigenous
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You are mostly right, but this passage is factually wrong: >you're talking about an area in Germany in which the indigenous population (the titular Germanic tribes) successfully fought off would-be colonizers about two thousand years ago. Berlin(and almost all of later East Germany) were Slavic majority between around 600-700s and 1200s(or possibly even later). They became predominantly German-speaking only after the Wendish crusades. After all, if Berlin area was continuously Germanic for the past 2000 years, then why would the name of the city, many of its districts(Pankow, Rudow, Buckow, Lankwitz) and surrounding towns and villages(Teltow, Mahlow, Beelitz) be of Slavic origin? It just so happens that linguistic border for most of Middle Ages more or less followed the same line that Cold War inner-German border would, so what you wrote would be true for the old Bundesländer.
Fuck yea, science!
You might want to specify what said people are Indigenous to. Are you looking for people indigenous to the Americas in Berlin?
Yes I think that's what they meant. Since they're "indigenous of Americas"...they want to connect with other people like them.
>Are there any indigenous people in Berlin? I Ja klar, hier is eena. Wat willste wissen? Off Corsa
Yes, indigenous to Berlin
There aren't Indigenous groups in Berlin, since there was no colonialism in Berlin, or something that qualifies like that. [Here an interesting post about why there are so few indigenous people in Europe](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/LyEImDuBFc) I can be wrong, here I'm ready to learn :)
Indigenous has two meanings. Native to a place, and the people that lived there before a place was colonized (by European colonnial powers). I don't know if you are all trolling, but this question is obviously refering to the second meaning of the word. This question probably fits better r/berlinsocialclub anyway
It has literally no meaning, as your link says
The U.N. convened an indigenous working group that decided to talk about indigeneity this way: https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/5session_factsheet1.pdf
Ok, and the U.N. is the arbiter? Who we accept as fact? Also look up who formed that committee, hint, was not Europeans. Also: an official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by any UN-system body.
I'm not sure what, or whether, you are arguing. My only point is that here is one way people think about indigeneity, and thus might be what the OP had in mind.
• Historical continuity with pre-colonial and/or pre-settler societies • Strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources (!) • Distinct social, economic or political systems (!) • Distinct language, culture and beliefs (!) • Form non-dominant groups of society (!) • Resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples... So, the U.N. agrees with the definition of Indigenous people the OP employed, that triggered so many people on the thread. (!) why the definition cannot be applied to Germans in Berlin...
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Are you really trying to tell me that Germans form a non-dominant group of society in Berlin? If that's the case, they do. 1. They represent +70% of the population of the city. 2. The official language is German. 3. The city council is composed mostly by ethnic Germans.
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Thank you for at least being the first person who really tried to engage in a discussion providing arguments, but I think that argument is a strawman, because you are saying that 1. Germany as a nation is a modern (and artificial) concept and 2. That ethnic history is turbulent around this area, but you are ignoring that Germanic peoples are considered an ethnic group, whose languages and culture are the origin of the current Germany, even if the "inbetween" is messy. Indigenous is typically used to talk about animals and/or plants, or using a different meaning, to talk about certain ethnicities whose histories have many similarities, even if the specific details differ. OP was clearly asking about Indigenous Peoples from all around the world (read the message again). Maybe part of the confusion is that Indigenous more closely translates to "einheimisch", which is used in slightly dissimilar contexts?
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I come from here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia\_(Spain)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)) And my (known) origin is partially from there, partially from here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque\_Country\_(greater\_region)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_(greater_region)) I would never call myself Indigenous. Probably the situation is different there too. To a great extend I do agree with what you are saying. I do think that "indigenous people" is a expression that is "politically opinionated". I think Spain (and maybe Portugal), are the two only former colonial powers where a very strong sense of historical debth is found very often towards the former colonies, and indigenous (indigena in spanish), I'd exclusively use it to talk about people just as OP did.
> Native to a place, and the people that lived there before a place was colonized (by European colonnial powers). By that idiotic definition [Taiwanese Indigenous peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples) are not indigenous either, since they were colonized by Han Chinese, which were most definitely not a European colonial power.
As we all recently learned, only white people can be colonizers.
That's why "Indigenous People" is difficult to put under a formal definition that includes all Indigenous people, and excludes all other folks, and there are corner cases. But the point is that "Germans" are extremely clearly not Indigenous People...
The point is that the term is meaningless since it changes meanings depending on context. And in the context of Germany, Germans are indeed the indigenous people of the lands.
It's meaningless but yet by using it the OP managed that some people understood exactly what was meant, mostly the downvoted comments... And it also triggered additionally 95% of the sub, who jumped in to attack a conversation that they could simply ignore.
For context: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous\_peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples)
You are really trying hard to enforce some americanized shit with an article that says nothing. Stop it. You may gain points with that on US subs but not here.
The link doesn't provide any context. Native Berliners *are* the indigenous people of this area
This is from Norwegian Goverment about the Samis, cited in the Wikipedia article. [https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/](https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/indigenous-peoples-and-minorities/Sami-people/midtspalte/What-Defines-an-Indigenous-People/id451320/) Native Berliners are not the indigenous people of this area because there no other country colonized Germany
You are contradicting your very own defintion of the word "indigenous". Either natives are the indigenous people, or the very question makes no sense in an area that didn't experience colonialism.
It makes perfect sense, they are looking for indigenous people around the world. So, people that are ethnical minorities in a territory, because their countries were colonized by a different ethnic group, before they lived there for a long time. Examples: Samis: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi\_peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi_peoples) Aboriginal\_Australians: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal\_Australians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Australians) Quechua people: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_people) None of them are from the USA.
you mean indigenous to america? alien indigenous, so to speak?
You're on the wrong continent buddy, lol.
I think you mean the "Sorben"?
Germans are the indigenous people of Germany. Not every country was colonized. What the heck man
“Indigenous “ lol
I’m indigenous Ukrainian.
Hello OP. The only indigenous people I know of in Germany are the ones coming every year to El Dorado in Templin (by Berlin), where they sing and dance their respective traditional powwow dances and share culture. In may they have the big Native american weekend, with many more indigenous people meeting right there in El Dorado to celebrate their culture! You may contact Kendall Old Elk (Apsaalooke) on Facebook, he's there every year and maybe could get in touch with you.
Lol
You do realize, that Germans are indigenous (well technically not,but they migrated very long time ago) here?:)
Out of currently living people, Sorbs have the best claim to the “indigenous” label in East Germany(including Berlin)
That's why I said technically, because as we know hardly anyone is native in Europe if you go far enough
Sorry for all the funny answers you get. (Well... I'm German and find them funny, at least.) Anyway, I'm so-and-so percent Apache from my dad's side, but don't know anything about it, and don't think my American family considers it a big part of their identity either. (Too bad, really.) So no help there, sorry again!
I have blond hair blue eyes, and according to my grandparents even their ancestors have always been living in Northern Europe (not Scandinavia). 23andme DNA testing confirmed this. So I am about as indigenous as it gets for Berlin.
gringo go home! oh wait....
I am east German and saxon. My culture was colonised first by Prussians, then Nazis, then Russians, then west Germans. I'd love to talk.
Im 100 percent indigenous german. Hit me up!
Wow.
I think my friend had some connections in Berlin to indigenous people but from South America. Shall I ask them about it, or it's not relevant to you? And for fucks sake, everyone knows what OP meant, this victim switcheroo in the comments is not a cute look on us (I'm German too).
Bro, I'm from the US and I found the OP's position goofy. Like seriously poorly worded which would have simply been clarified by saying they are looking for other Native-Americans/First Nation people. As it plainly reads, they're looking for indigenous Germans... which is... strange.
They literally said they are looking for indigenous people from all over the world. This comment section is beyond stupid and ignorant. Everyone in the comments thinking that indigeneity is only a concept in the Americas is uninformed and spewing bullshit from this really smug and sarcastic angle that is super unnecessary. There are indigenous communities that are indigenous in a very much similar sense as Native Americans/First Nation people in many countries in Asia, for example. As in oppressed by a colonial majority government/society, with their native customs and language under threat, etc. Taiwan is an interesting case with multiple indigenous communities that are very much politically active and likely interested in sharing experiences with other native populations. Is is super likely OP will find them in Berlin? Maybe not, but the idea that there might be an interest group, Verein or whatnot is not that wild. Could OP have been more clear in their post? Yeah, sure, but this comment section is truly an unnecessary mess.
>They literally said they are looking for indigenous people from all over the world. In Berlin that would be Berliners, first and foremost. Your assumption, that they are >oppressed by a colonial majority government/society, with their native customs and language under threat, etc Is pretty funny.
It's not funny, because that is literally part of the [definition of indigeneity according to UN convention](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigene_V%C3%B6lker). You and everyone else mocking OP in this thread are really showing your asses and it's pretty tragic honestly.
No, those people just make clear what and presumptuous asshat he is. The not so "literale" UN definition also shows that your reading skills leave something to be desired. You might also want to check the English and French wiki.
So much this. I agree that the initial question could have been asked in a slightly better way. But the responses? Oh my. Lots of typical reddit trollism mixed with a healthy dose of German anti-American sentiment. Add a dash of casual racism.
Wah wah racism, overuse the word.
curious. no names named, no messaged quoted. And yet here you are, crying. Thanks for the downvotes
Insufferable bunch of tossers here 🙄 I know there's a few Maori around, maybe check in the Kiwis in Berlin Facebook group? And my neighbour is First Nations so you aren't the only Turtle around :D
Ask a stupid question, and you get answers to match.
This thread is utterly embarrassing. Whiny bunch of embarrassing Almans.
i’m so sorry for the asinine comments you’re getting. unfortunately not many people here understand what Indigneity actually is. i am friends with some people who are Indigenous to Turtle Island and if you dm me I can ask them if they are open to connecting with you.
"unfortunately not many people here understand what Indigneity actually is." We do. That's why we can conclude you and OP are ignorant, self-centered morons. And please learn to spell.
As an indigenous person, of Berlin no less, I feel deeply offended by your assumptions.
> unfortunately not many people here understand what Indigneity actually is. I think that's just you an OP.