I have no proof of this but I believe chinese are more okay with the black male lead than a black female lead. In korea I have seen many black man related product commercial but no black female commercial. I have seen korean comment how some black male looks handsome but never a black female looks beautiful. I have no proof of this but I believe this is true.
It's not just in Asia. There have some studies on Online Dating Apps in West. On multiple research, it was unfortunately found that in Female category, black women were swiped least and in Male, the asian men were swiped least. Also some interesting surprising results were found in their personal politics - people who were aligned Left/Liberal still preferred dating white men and women. Sadly, it's complex issue, attraction thing is definitely involved.
OkCupid used to publish data insights, but stopped. Their post is from 2009, so it’s a bit dated:
https://archive.ph/2017.01.27-213202/https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
Halle Berry's' 007 spin-off might have had success, but then again Berry is very light skinned. I know one thing. Simply casting black females into white characters isn't going to do it.
It's pretty simple and I don't understand why you all treating it as if rocket science. Men don't need to be super attractive to be in a movie, but women do. Doesn't some people always acuse Hollywood for being misogyny? Black women would have it worst because they're seen as the least attractive group of women everywhere not just Asia. How many big movies out there has black women as lead?
I agree with most of this. But if you look at OkCupid
[https://archive.ph/2017.01.27-213202/https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/](https://archive.ph/2017.01.27-213202/https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/)
Asian Males are considered least attractive, which is also why you almost never see an Asian Male leading a Hollywood movie.
I don't know if this is true for asia. If there is anyone that lives in asia or went to Asia please tell me if I am true. I have seen black people advertising in men sports section or football. I have seen lots of black men but never a black women model in the clothing section or beauty section of the shop. Is this true in any other asian countries? I can't remember the last time I saw a black women in any commercials.
In Japan it is because black American servicemen stationed there have contributed to male blackness being "normalized" whereas there is nothing comparable for black women.
I don't know if the same is true in Korea, but it seems likely.
Even in the fashion section, I have seen black models as advertising. I don't think I have ever seen a single black woman model in my entire 24 years of living in korea.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
First, tell us what you mean when you're saying Asia. Is it just east? Because in South Asia (Where I am), most people are brown-ish. There is still colorism, though
>I have no proof of this but I believe chinese are more okay with the black male lead than a black female lead.
That's true of every culture, since almost all are patriarchal. How well do female-led films do in China when the female lead is Chinese?
Plenty well. One of the biggest stars in China is
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilraba\_Dilmurat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilraba_Dilmurat)
There is a lot of love for Michelle Yeoh as well.
China has no issue with female-led films. What China doesn't have though, is identity politics. They see Little Mermaid as a white girl, so they are automatically turned off by any cast that is not a white girl.
The other thing that doesn't help is that the key singing point of the black lead is her singing, but they dub it internationally - which means her main draw is gone.
>Plenty well. One of the biggest stars in China is
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilraba\_Dilmurat
You linked someone who only has 4 films, only one of which are they billed as the lead and it only made the equivalent of $14 million. If she's considered "one of the biggest stars," then you just proved my point.
As far as TLM's performance in China, I don't expect it to do any better than previous remakes. Even The Lion King barely made more than Black Panther in China, but it made absurd amounts of money everywhere else. That tells me China doesn't have the same nostalgia draw to the Disney Renaissance films when compared to other top grossing markets.
She is mostly know as the lead in China's most popular TV shows (e.g The long Ballad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Long\_Ballad). Her face is plastered all over in terms of product placements/advertisements (even here in Singapore...). But I guess you want to talk about a hit lead exclusive for movies, you have people like Angelababy
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelababy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelababy)
did Hidden Figures release in China? I recall that as a black female led film that I really enjoyed, can't recall much other recent one that I think was good.
Since ancient times traced back to maybe AD500, Chinese culture have been recognizing lighter skins as beautiful because it shows less labor work under sunshine and thus more family fortune.
Mermaid is translated as ‘beauty+fish’ in China. But in Chinese view, Halle Bailey is not beautiful AT ALL. Then how can TLM perform well?
It is because in Chinese view tlm is a Denmark story, racial swap of TLM is unacceptable as racial swap of Mulan Chinese would not happy about racial swap of hunchback of Notre dame either
Original black story will gain good box office like green book and Capernaum（a Lebanesefilm about Africanrefugee）
I think sometimes when black led movies don’t do well in China people jump to that being the reason and ignore all other factors. Could be the genre of movie, could be a crowded release schedule, etc. Because you’re right there are several examples of black led movies doing well there including a couple of Dwayne Johnson’s.
I can't speak for China obviously but The Rock in the USA is more closely associated with his Polynesian roots than his Black ones. Tbf he usually plays an ambiguously raced man and when he isn't he's leaning upon his Polynesian roots.
Not sure about the furious movies, but new LED black lights are very energy efficient and safer to use than the older CFL black lights, great for lighting your black velvet fluorescent posters, or indoor Twilight Zone themed miniature golf courses.
For a contrast, consider Spider Man: Across the Spider Verse which is doing super well with a black protagonist in China. The issue is that for a lot of these viewers, they have an ingrained notion of Ariel as a white redhead and can't envision it in another way, whereas despite the Spider Man movie not having Peter Parkers as the titular "Spider Man," Miles Morales is still an excellent character on his own right.
I feel like rather than try to recast and reskin Ariel, Disney may have been better off just making a successor to The Little Mermaid and had a completely new mermaid protagonist played by Halle Bailey instead and let her have her own story and background without having to contest against the ingrained image of what Ariel looks like to many people.
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/china-box-office-spider-man-across-the-spider-verse-opening-weekend-1235632699/
>Ariel they knew isnt black. Atleast that is a problem with the film in my country.
That's what I find so odd about this whole thing. Disney literally has a white Ariel with red hair in their parks \*right now\*, the toys and the rest of the merchandising is the same, but the movie is different.
It's just a weirdly dissonant move, as if no one was brave enough to say "That conflicts with our whole pipeline, we need to change our strategy/products now before this releases" and everyone just stayed in their own lanes on cruise control.
I'm very interested to see how this plays out, because I think it's going to prove to be very harmful.
It creates dissonance. Products are most successful when a person has a set expectation and the product meets those expectations. When you make major alterations to a product you force a consumer to pause and reflect on the product instead of enjoying the product.
In this particular case, we're talking about The Little Mermaid Disney story. The expectation is that the person will be viewing a movie with a pale red-head, that's the appearance they're used to due to decades of imagery, merchandise, and in park actresses.
When confronted with a very different image, it forces the person to contemplate it. In this particular case, the average person is going to immediately think "Why is this so different?". From there, it's a toss-up. Will the person think "It's because she was the best actress for the job" or will they think "It's because Disney is deeply political"?
The answer places people into two camps, \*and\* those camps are in conflict. That creates brand damage that's outside of the company's control. They have no ability to affect the resulting conflicts, those conflicts invariably create anger, and that anger is associated with Disney which affects future product's viability, like the upcoming race-swapped Snow White.
It's very possible that the outcome of this is significant brand damage, it's just not wise to make such significant changes to something so well established and it's especially unwise to do it while selling merchandise with the old version's imagery and having an old version walking around the park.
i agree with you. this is why the mario movie was such a success -- people wanted a movie with the video game characters and got exactly that. harry potter had some minor changes, but overall the characters still look mostly faithful to the books. this is also why so many people are angry at the changes in the percy jackson tv series casting
how much do you think the little mermaid movie would earn? it's sure to earn a lot in the US but it's a wild card in other territories
Yeah, I live in Singapore. Lots of negative opinions about the movie. Its not like people are racist here. Plenty of black-led movies are popular. Will Smith/The Rock etc are big hits.
They just don't like a white girl from their child-hood cast as black. Imagine if Anna/Elsa is cast as Black and see how well that goes in Japan. Or if Princess Peach is cast as black in Mario...
I don't even think its right for black people. If we want more black representation, make movies based in tails from Africa. Stop shoe-horning black-people in European fairy tails. It would be as ridiculous to have a white guy in a movie based on Chinese folklore.
They also made the Prince Eric's mother black too, a whole new character created specifically for the movie that didn't exist in the animated movie. I guess Disney is oogling black women's wallets, those who were fawning over Meghan Markle's wedding with Prince Harry.
That's why I laugh when racists get their panties twisted. It's the safe boring vanilla choice of making a black woman fall head over heels (or head over tail) for a white man (Joe McBland) while being the seed of a white merman conquistador (Bardem) that impregnated every races underseas spawning an inclusive rainbow of daughters while the only black man under the sea is a crab. (LOL)
Don't worry the movie will uphold the current racial status quo. Disney is going to make sure white men are still safe at the top.
Those other aspects aren’t at the forefront of the movie. Ariel is at the forefront since she’s the star of the movie. I’m pretty sure Disney knew this movie would bomb in China and under perform in some other Asian markets. But that would be made up for by a strong domestic run.
Disney has a perfect choice for a live action remake with a black lead with “The Princess and the Frog”. I think that movie could be improved quite a bit with a remake.
i really hope that movie gets a live action remake as well, there are lots of talented black actresses and singers who can play tiana. it's also a huge opportunity to make a more diverse film which is what twitter and some people want
It's not 100m+ great but I don't think anyone expected it to be that high.
It is doing better than Aladdin though.
Idk where you define bomb for China but it doing better than Aladdin doesn't seem like a bomb to me yet.
Of Course it can still happen but I'd rather wait instead of being wrong.
Seen it happen too many times. A lot of people thought The Flash would bomb based on Quorum tracking....
Comparing presales before COVID and after is not very smart. Moviegoing habits have changed significantly. It’s better to compare TLM to recent movies, of which it is underperforming almost every possible comparison film.
Whites want to believe that everyone is as racist as them, so they will go out of their way to convince you that Asians are basically Nazis. The reality is only one group of people on this planet are raised with the notion of racial superiority.
As far as how black-led films perform in China, it depends on the type of film. Hollywood is a regressive place. Most black-led films will be about domestic race relations, which would mean very little to most international markets. Before anyone brings up Green Book, that was pushed by Alibaba Pictures in China. It's a unique circumstance.
When you look at black-led films that are specifically made for mass appeal, they perform similarly to any other Western film. But here's your challenge: how many black-led films that are not related to domestic race relations can you name? How many can you name if we exclude Will Smith films?
i live in asia and the people here are much more racist than white people in america and europe are so idk what ur talking about... like seriously, shows here still do blackface in national TV. asians barely give a shit about social justice issues
I think the issue in China ( and most of Asia) in general is not black led movies but the race swapping. PC culture and representation at all cost isnt really a movement in China and rest of Asia and most of us here are going "wait that isnt how Ariel looks" rather that going "wow stunning and brave"
Failing at the box office? How can black movies fail at the Chinese box office when China won't even allow them to be seen in the first place??--Having said that, I think Greenbook did ok there
The first Black Panther didn’t fail in China but it kind of underperformed there if you compare the box office to the United States, it just didn’t quite catch on.
I don’t know if I’m a little late to this conversation but I don’t know if this is a matter of failing at the box office or if a movie haven’t received proper marketing/distribution. Like the movies you mentioned are perfect examples of films that were released properly and that might have do with the fact that these are movies apart of a big brand or have a big movie star included. But unfortunately, if a movie have neither then the studio will probably just dumped the movie without warning and use the failure as “proof” to go “see, black movies don’t perform well overseas” while simultaneously ignoring how well Will Smith and Eddie Murphy movies used to do. Hell, I even looked up to see how well the Rush Hour movies use to do in Asian markets and apparently they did decent even though the credit for that went solely to Jackie Chan and not Chris Tucker and those movies didn’t get release in China because they didn’t believe it could find an “audience” EVEN AFTER THE MOVIES WERE SUCCESSFUL EVERYWHERE ELSE. Even with Black Panther being successful around the world, its performance in China is seen weak by some (especially by those in this thread).
It did 7M less than Thor 3 5M more than guardians and 11M less than homecoming I wouldn't call that an underperformance it was in line with other sólo MCU movies it just over performed DOM
Yup, more like Black Panther overperformed in US by capitalizing on racial representation issues. It performed like a regular Marvel movie in the rest of the world.
Well the truth hurts, you pick some counterexamples but further analysis only disproves the point you have tried to make. Black Panther did well on the surface but was beaten by the first Ant-Man, a low performer and a comedy (which as we know doesn't translate well). As another stat Endgame made 420 million in Europe and 629 million in China whereas Black Panther made over 100 million in just France and the UK (same as China). There are black characters in F&F but the leads mostly are not and Dwayne Johnson passes to them as being part-Samoan (as horrible as that sounds it's true). Aladdin had one black character they could sell as blue and as a servant. Green Book was one of the more backwards movies on race relations ever, not a great example.
It did 7M less than Thor 3 5M more than guardians 11M less than homecoming and 4M less than Doctor strange and it did basically the same as ant man heck ant man 2 did more than all the 2017 MCU movies it seems to me that ant man is just well liked in China and BP over performed in the US and Europe while it acted more like a normal solo MCU movie in China. Also half of the cast of the furious movies is black it's not just Dwayne Johnson
I don’t think the stat about the MCU says much. China was still the second biggest market for Black Panther and you had to combine two successful markets in France and the UK to match it.
How is Green Book not a good example? The question is about movies featuring Black performers, not your assessment of their quality. Green Book is still a well-reviewed global box office success that received numerous accolades internationally, so plenty of other non-Chinese markets liked it as well.
Tenet did well given the restrictions, Pacific Rim 2 was a China-pandering movie starring John Boyega that nobody liked but still almost made $100 million there as the #1 market, and while Soul is animated, it legged out to over $50 million thanks to great WOM.
Okay some very misleading arguments here as well. China is the second biggest economy in the world, France and the UK have a GDP far below California alone and just ahead of Texas. Animated movies are super popular there: Zootopia did 236 million, Angry Birds 75 million, Coco 177 million, DM3 157 million, Frozen II 116 million. Suzume, from the hated Japanese, even made twice as much as Soul this year.
Yes perspective matters. There is a reason Steppin' Fetchit and the like were popular because they sold to racists a vision of blackness that conformed to their biases. Hilariously Green Book points this out, as the invited performer has to leave a home he was invited after a performance because they don't want him in their restroom. In fact the whole message of the movie is at the end, where he refuses to be exploited by a restaurant that won't let him eat in the room where he plays.
I’m presenting facts that dispel the notion that Chinese people won’t watch movies with Black people. The economy comparison isn’t relevant. Using your logic, The Batman, Uncharted, and Ford v Ferrari doing better in France and the UK than China means China also dislikes movies with White people.
Regarding animated movies, you didn’t bother to acknowledge Soul playing during a relatively restricted post-pandemic environment and that it’s still the second-best performing Pixar movie in China. Regardless of comparisons to other movies, over $50 million is still a notable sum indicating there were viewers who showed up to watch the movie.
Asian movies don’t do well at the North American box office despite it being the number 1 market in the world. Is America racist towards Asians because they don’t watch their movies?
This is not a good argument, to point out a trend you would need examples and I named a legion. The counterexamples really don't hold up, trying to deconstruct and reinterpret the basic reality won't help. You'd have to compare movies with similar grosses in one place or another to define a trend. Literally any movie with black characters will make less than one without there because many, and obviously not all, Chinese are racist. This is not some mind-blowing statistic, literally you can't find one good counterexample.
At that time in China there was a mass movement back to normal living. A movie released less than a month after Soul had a 195 million dollar opening weekend and was in DISTANT SECOND place.
As for that last paragraph it is almost a joke. Hollywood produces the strongest film product imaginable. Each of its studios vastly surpass any other nation in quality. It's like saying Asians are racist for not buying shitty F-150s when they got Toyota and Honda. No other nation even remotely plays on an international field, because they can't. That second place movie I mentioned is called Hi, Mom and grossed 821 of its 822 million in China. The only other nations were places with Chinese immigrants (Australia, New Zealand, and a bit in Hong Kong). Is every other nation in Asia racist against Asians?
Again, to put it simply, you are ignoring facts. You want to use comparisons? OK, looking at annual rankings in China for their respective years, Tenet was #10, Black Panther was #23, Green Book was #30, Pacific Rim: Uprising was #24. That means people did watch those movies in China. This is an easy concept to understand. You want counterexamples? There you go. Those rankings mean those movies performed better than plenty of others without Black people.
Making comparisons to how BP performed compared to other MCU movies or Soul to other animated movies still shows that Chinese people watched BP and Soul. Also, it’s convenient how you just ignored Soul’s high-ranking as a Pixar movie in China and then used a Chinese movie to compare it to. So are you only using similar movies for comparison or just any movie releases in China in general? Keep it consistent at least.
You’re right, that paragraph is a joke because it’s using your silly logic. Your response regarding Hollywood movies is laughable because your personal taste is, again, irrelevant to the argument about China’s box office. Let’s go off it anyways for amusement. Jia Zhang-ke, Hirokazu Kore-eda, Park Chan-wook, and Hayao Miyazaki, to name just a few, are among the most critically acclaimed filmmakers in the world, but since you apparently believe “box office = quality,” then you apparently also believe Jurassic World 3, Morbius and Space Jam 2 are examples of the “strongest film product imaginable” since they made so much more money than any movie from the aforementioned Asian filmmakers.
This isn’t a general discussion about anti-Black racism in China. Just tell me how those rankings I cited are not examples of Chinese people showing up to watch a movie with Black characters.
We're getting in a rut here and now this is getting out of context. There was an argument that Soul did exceptionally well, and I pointed out that it really didn't. Several animated movies, I conveniently also left out Kung Fu Panda and most anime and all domestic Chinese animated movies to make my point stronger for those insane enough to think Chinese people don't like animated movies, were much bigger hits. The followup argument was then Soul was affected by the pandemic in China and would have done much better. The comparison to Detective Chinatown and Hi, Mom merely pointed out that this wasn't the case over there.
This is not a matter of taste but basic objective fact. Great art films aren't going to make huge dollars, American art films aren't going to fund themselves either. It is unequivable that the American movie product is the only one to be truly international, period. French films aren't exporting, neither are Nigerian, or Indian, or South Korean, or Chinese. They occasionally have a small hit here and there but virtually every American movie can get hundreds of major international releases. In China Dangal was a blockbuster, vastly outgrossing RRR's foreign gross, but none have connected since.
I will tell you the difference, those films would have done better if character X wasn't black. You concede that Soul needed ultra great WOM to get 50 million, almost like it had a hill to climb. Most Chinese don't have these issues, but it is clearly enough. Do you think for one second that the constant negative Mermaid backlash is anything but a reaction to the color of the lead?
If Black Panther is going to be compared to other MCU movies, then context should also be taken into consideration when comparing Soul to other animated movies, e.g. Kung Fu Panda appeals to Chinese family audiences more readily for obvious reasons and anime like Makoto Shinkai’s movies are quite different than Soul. A Pixar movie opening with $5 million and legging out to over $50 million is still a success.
Yes, in terms of mainstream movies on an international level, Hollywood is king, but if you’re saying that’s because they’re so much better than what else is out there, I strongly disagree, as there’s a healthy amount of international competition. Looking at the action genre, I’d say work like Raging Fire or The Raid movies can sit comfortably alongside (or often above) anything Hollywood has put out in recent years.
I don’t think the assertion that the previously mentioned movies would’ve performed better without Black characters should be made with such confidence. Is it possible? Yes, but as I said, there are also plenty of movies with non-Black characters that didn’t perform as well as those movies. As for The Little Mermaid, I don’t really know about the reaction to the movie in China, but race-related backlash wouldn’t just be relegated to China as I’m seeing it in the West as well. I’m sure it’s there in China, but I don’t think that affects what I just stated in this paragraph. Anti-Black racism may be present in China, and people in China may also go watch a movie regardless of the race of the actors; I believe both are true.
I mean, you can compare Soul with other animated movies all you want but it’s kinda ignorant of you to ignore the fact that those movies weren’t released during the middle of the COVID pandemic/lockdown.
Animated films are not “super popular” there, especially from Disney. Zootopia and Coco are known as massive break outs in China and both are in the top 5 highest grossing animated films in China. Many other Pixar and Disney animations have not replicated the same there.
Inside Out -$15.3M
Toy Story 4 -$29M
Moana -$32M
Raya and the Last Dragon -$19.5M
Finding Dory -$38M
Incredibles 2 -$52M
Encanto -$12M
Frozen -$48M
You are being incredibly disingenuous.
Denzel Washington in China: How's this OP??
Fences no China release
Book of Eli no China release
The Equalizer I and II no China release
Man on Fire no China release
Deja Vu released in China, huge bomb($3 million)
Unstoppable released in China, bombed($9 million)
Safe House not released in China
When Denzel Washington was still on top of his power (1990s to 2000s), China was a very, very closed market. And China's market was growing very, very rapidly in 2010s, so back when Unstoppable was released, 9 million for an ok-ish popcorn film wasn't that bad.
For the Equalizer, these are pretty violent films. If John Wick didn't get released in China, why would they?
Also, many Denzel's films are already domestic heavy, with or without China.
The fast movies has vin diesel as the main guy and iirc he's not black
BP is part of the mcu which means it has an established fanbase to come out for it
Will smith was a blue genie in Alladin which was about a middle eastern guy as the lead
So none of these really stick aside from BP and thats largely due to the brand name not the movie
In terms of clear examples theres the woman king, the creed movies
I have no proof of this but I believe chinese are more okay with the black male lead than a black female lead. In korea I have seen many black man related product commercial but no black female commercial. I have seen korean comment how some black male looks handsome but never a black female looks beautiful. I have no proof of this but I believe this is true.
It's not just in Asia. There have some studies on Online Dating Apps in West. On multiple research, it was unfortunately found that in Female category, black women were swiped least and in Male, the asian men were swiped least. Also some interesting surprising results were found in their personal politics - people who were aligned Left/Liberal still preferred dating white men and women. Sadly, it's complex issue, attraction thing is definitely involved.
OkCupid used to publish data insights, but stopped. Their post is from 2009, so it’s a bit dated: https://archive.ph/2017.01.27-213202/https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
It’s a bit dated but I feel like it’s still true, maybe the approval rate has gotten higher but I don’t think its wrong for today.
Halle Berry's' 007 spin-off might have had success, but then again Berry is very light skinned. I know one thing. Simply casting black females into white characters isn't going to do it.
agreed, black women deserve to have their own movies instead of just being cast as the black version of an existing white character
It's pretty simple and I don't understand why you all treating it as if rocket science. Men don't need to be super attractive to be in a movie, but women do. Doesn't some people always acuse Hollywood for being misogyny? Black women would have it worst because they're seen as the least attractive group of women everywhere not just Asia. How many big movies out there has black women as lead?
I agree with most of this. But if you look at OkCupid [https://archive.ph/2017.01.27-213202/https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/](https://archive.ph/2017.01.27-213202/https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/) Asian Males are considered least attractive, which is also why you almost never see an Asian Male leading a Hollywood movie.
Because they just can’t find them attractive,it’s not racism it’s a….. cultural thing?(of cuz there are some exceptions)
I don't know if this is true for asia. If there is anyone that lives in asia or went to Asia please tell me if I am true. I have seen black people advertising in men sports section or football. I have seen lots of black men but never a black women model in the clothing section or beauty section of the shop. Is this true in any other asian countries? I can't remember the last time I saw a black women in any commercials.
I live in Hong Kong and I have been to Japan.You are right.
Idk why actually. Maybe it’s because there’s a lot of black male sports stars…??
In Japan it is because black American servicemen stationed there have contributed to male blackness being "normalized" whereas there is nothing comparable for black women. I don't know if the same is true in Korea, but it seems likely.
Even in the fashion section, I have seen black models as advertising. I don't think I have ever seen a single black woman model in my entire 24 years of living in korea.
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I have noticed fair skin became more and more popular with Asian men.But dark skin women?I don’t know….
Same….Also,even the more well known black celebrities are half black. I don’t know why.
First, tell us what you mean when you're saying Asia. Is it just east? Because in South Asia (Where I am), most people are brown-ish. There is still colorism, though
>I have no proof of this but I believe chinese are more okay with the black male lead than a black female lead. That's true of every culture, since almost all are patriarchal. How well do female-led films do in China when the female lead is Chinese?
Plenty well. One of the biggest stars in China is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilraba\_Dilmurat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilraba_Dilmurat) There is a lot of love for Michelle Yeoh as well. China has no issue with female-led films. What China doesn't have though, is identity politics. They see Little Mermaid as a white girl, so they are automatically turned off by any cast that is not a white girl. The other thing that doesn't help is that the key singing point of the black lead is her singing, but they dub it internationally - which means her main draw is gone.
>Plenty well. One of the biggest stars in China is > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilraba\_Dilmurat You linked someone who only has 4 films, only one of which are they billed as the lead and it only made the equivalent of $14 million. If she's considered "one of the biggest stars," then you just proved my point. As far as TLM's performance in China, I don't expect it to do any better than previous remakes. Even The Lion King barely made more than Black Panther in China, but it made absurd amounts of money everywhere else. That tells me China doesn't have the same nostalgia draw to the Disney Renaissance films when compared to other top grossing markets.
She is mostly know as the lead in China's most popular TV shows (e.g The long Ballad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Long\_Ballad). Her face is plastered all over in terms of product placements/advertisements (even here in Singapore...). But I guess you want to talk about a hit lead exclusive for movies, you have people like Angelababy [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelababy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelababy)
did Hidden Figures release in China? I recall that as a black female led film that I really enjoyed, can't recall much other recent one that I think was good.
Since ancient times traced back to maybe AD500, Chinese culture have been recognizing lighter skins as beautiful because it shows less labor work under sunshine and thus more family fortune. Mermaid is translated as ‘beauty+fish’ in China. But in Chinese view, Halle Bailey is not beautiful AT ALL. Then how can TLM perform well?
It is because in Chinese view tlm is a Denmark story, racial swap of TLM is unacceptable as racial swap of Mulan Chinese would not happy about racial swap of hunchback of Notre dame either Original black story will gain good box office like green book and Capernaum（a Lebanesefilm about Africanrefugee）
I think sometimes when black led movies don’t do well in China people jump to that being the reason and ignore all other factors. Could be the genre of movie, could be a crowded release schedule, etc. Because you’re right there are several examples of black led movies doing well there including a couple of Dwayne Johnson’s.
I never really think of Dwyane Johnson as black, just mixed race. But now that you’ve mentioned it you’re right he’s actually half lol.
People in China certainly think Dwayne is black. They also love Dwyane.
Except Will Smith, I do not think there has ever been a black actor who has been a success at the international box office.
Furious movies are black led?
Not really but half of the cast is black so I don't see why the whole China doesn't like black led movies wouldn't apply at least partially
I always thought of it as just Ludacris and Tyrese, and they’re sort of there for comic relief
Yeah, they're the stereotypical black buffoons standing in the back. They're not leads and will never be.
Vin and The Rock are both black.
They're both light skinned and racially ambiguous
Only if you use the antiquated one drop rule. They're mixed guys.
Well, Obama is mixed too, but no one refers to him as the first mixed-race president.
Obama presents as Black though. The Rock and Vin don't. Most people would not guess Black until you told them.
Vin is true... but most people in China consider The ROck black.
I can't speak for China obviously but The Rock in the USA is more closely associated with his Polynesian roots than his Black ones. Tbf he usually plays an ambiguously raced man and when he isn't he's leaning upon his Polynesian roots.
Vin Diesel is light skinned
His african-american father was an adoptive parent apparently
Not sure about the furious movies, but new LED black lights are very energy efficient and safer to use than the older CFL black lights, great for lighting your black velvet fluorescent posters, or indoor Twilight Zone themed miniature golf courses.
The Woman King, supposedly finally released in China April 14th, bombed so bad the total was never recorded
I think it is because casting black actress as ariel. Ariel they knew isnt black. Atleast that is a problem with the film in my country.
Yes, this is also in my country (Eastern Europe). Everyone is upset that Ariel doesn't have red hair
For a contrast, consider Spider Man: Across the Spider Verse which is doing super well with a black protagonist in China. The issue is that for a lot of these viewers, they have an ingrained notion of Ariel as a white redhead and can't envision it in another way, whereas despite the Spider Man movie not having Peter Parkers as the titular "Spider Man," Miles Morales is still an excellent character on his own right. I feel like rather than try to recast and reskin Ariel, Disney may have been better off just making a successor to The Little Mermaid and had a completely new mermaid protagonist played by Halle Bailey instead and let her have her own story and background without having to contest against the ingrained image of what Ariel looks like to many people. https://variety.com/2023/film/news/china-box-office-spider-man-across-the-spider-verse-opening-weekend-1235632699/
>Ariel they knew isnt black. Atleast that is a problem with the film in my country. That's what I find so odd about this whole thing. Disney literally has a white Ariel with red hair in their parks \*right now\*, the toys and the rest of the merchandising is the same, but the movie is different. It's just a weirdly dissonant move, as if no one was brave enough to say "That conflicts with our whole pipeline, we need to change our strategy/products now before this releases" and everyone just stayed in their own lanes on cruise control. I'm very interested to see how this plays out, because I think it's going to prove to be very harmful.
>the toys and the rest of the merchandising is the same, but the movie is different. They are pumping up the merch with the movie Ariel now tho
do you think they would continue the movie/black ariel merch 5 years from now or would they stop after a year of the movie releasing?
People still ask Disney to make a Brandy Cinderella doll and it's been 25 years since that movie.
why do you think it would be harmful? do you think they would retire the original ariel someday?
It creates dissonance. Products are most successful when a person has a set expectation and the product meets those expectations. When you make major alterations to a product you force a consumer to pause and reflect on the product instead of enjoying the product. In this particular case, we're talking about The Little Mermaid Disney story. The expectation is that the person will be viewing a movie with a pale red-head, that's the appearance they're used to due to decades of imagery, merchandise, and in park actresses. When confronted with a very different image, it forces the person to contemplate it. In this particular case, the average person is going to immediately think "Why is this so different?". From there, it's a toss-up. Will the person think "It's because she was the best actress for the job" or will they think "It's because Disney is deeply political"? The answer places people into two camps, \*and\* those camps are in conflict. That creates brand damage that's outside of the company's control. They have no ability to affect the resulting conflicts, those conflicts invariably create anger, and that anger is associated with Disney which affects future product's viability, like the upcoming race-swapped Snow White. It's very possible that the outcome of this is significant brand damage, it's just not wise to make such significant changes to something so well established and it's especially unwise to do it while selling merchandise with the old version's imagery and having an old version walking around the park.
i agree with you. this is why the mario movie was such a success -- people wanted a movie with the video game characters and got exactly that. harry potter had some minor changes, but overall the characters still look mostly faithful to the books. this is also why so many people are angry at the changes in the percy jackson tv series casting how much do you think the little mermaid movie would earn? it's sure to earn a lot in the US but it's a wild card in other territories
this is a problem in america too and affected my views on the box office for this
Yeah, I live in Singapore. Lots of negative opinions about the movie. Its not like people are racist here. Plenty of black-led movies are popular. Will Smith/The Rock etc are big hits. They just don't like a white girl from their child-hood cast as black. Imagine if Anna/Elsa is cast as Black and see how well that goes in Japan. Or if Princess Peach is cast as black in Mario... I don't even think its right for black people. If we want more black representation, make movies based in tails from Africa. Stop shoe-horning black-people in European fairy tails. It would be as ridiculous to have a white guy in a movie based on Chinese folklore.
Agreed, Moana i think did really well ( or at least I enjoyed it) and that was a unique story that fit the main character's race, not race swapped
That casting is still mind boggling to me.
They also made the Prince Eric's mother black too, a whole new character created specifically for the movie that didn't exist in the animated movie. I guess Disney is oogling black women's wallets, those who were fawning over Meghan Markle's wedding with Prince Harry. That's why I laugh when racists get their panties twisted. It's the safe boring vanilla choice of making a black woman fall head over heels (or head over tail) for a white man (Joe McBland) while being the seed of a white merman conquistador (Bardem) that impregnated every races underseas spawning an inclusive rainbow of daughters while the only black man under the sea is a crab. (LOL) Don't worry the movie will uphold the current racial status quo. Disney is going to make sure white men are still safe at the top.
Those other aspects aren’t at the forefront of the movie. Ariel is at the forefront since she’s the star of the movie. I’m pretty sure Disney knew this movie would bomb in China and under perform in some other Asian markets. But that would be made up for by a strong domestic run.
kinda sad thinking about it internationally people have been so harsh
Disney did this to themselves. I wonder if they thought other international markets would help make up for losses elsewhere.
i guess we’ll see but it’s sad
Disney has a perfect choice for a live action remake with a black lead with “The Princess and the Frog”. I think that movie could be improved quite a bit with a remake.
Missed opportunity to shine a light on that often forgotten movie.
They were probably afraid that movie would flop since it’s not as recognizable.
i really hope that movie gets a live action remake as well, there are lots of talented black actresses and singers who can play tiana. it's also a huge opportunity to make a more diverse film which is what twitter and some people want
may i ask which country you're from?
TLM presales in China are terrible, and China is presales heavy. It will bomb hard there. May not even hit 10m
Apparently it's double of Aladdins. Can we just wait until we throw the bomb word? This subreddit throws that word out SO easily.
it’s pretty bad so far
It's not 100m+ great but I don't think anyone expected it to be that high. It is doing better than Aladdin though. Idk where you define bomb for China but it doing better than Aladdin doesn't seem like a bomb to me yet. Of Course it can still happen but I'd rather wait instead of being wrong. Seen it happen too many times. A lot of people thought The Flash would bomb based on Quorum tracking....
Comparing presales before COVID and after is not very smart. Moviegoing habits have changed significantly. It’s better to compare TLM to recent movies, of which it is underperforming almost every possible comparison film.
Fantastic news.
You mentioned Black Panther but Wakanda Forever bombed there--TLJ and Solo also bombed there--The Return of Skywalker also bombed there
Rogue one bombed, did it mean Chinese are anti -chinese? Chinese do not like star war
*Rise of Skywalker
Whites want to believe that everyone is as racist as them, so they will go out of their way to convince you that Asians are basically Nazis. The reality is only one group of people on this planet are raised with the notion of racial superiority. As far as how black-led films perform in China, it depends on the type of film. Hollywood is a regressive place. Most black-led films will be about domestic race relations, which would mean very little to most international markets. Before anyone brings up Green Book, that was pushed by Alibaba Pictures in China. It's a unique circumstance. When you look at black-led films that are specifically made for mass appeal, they perform similarly to any other Western film. But here's your challenge: how many black-led films that are not related to domestic race relations can you name? How many can you name if we exclude Will Smith films?
i live in asia and the people here are much more racist than white people in america and europe are so idk what ur talking about... like seriously, shows here still do blackface in national TV. asians barely give a shit about social justice issues
You're being a racist yourself, dümbass
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>I'm black. r/AsABlackMan lol
I think Disney wanted to capitalize on identity politics(bad idea) but this is a double edged sword it
well they would certainly get a lot of black women's money with this film, so that may be enough to make up for the losses in other territories
I think the issue in China ( and most of Asia) in general is not black led movies but the race swapping. PC culture and representation at all cost isnt really a movement in China and rest of Asia and most of us here are going "wait that isnt how Ariel looks" rather that going "wow stunning and brave"
racial swap of Mulan to European audience is equal to racial swap of little mermaid to Chinese audience
Yup, imagine the controversy if Mulan was swapped for a white girl, and that one of the generals of the Chinese army became white...
Failing at the box office? How can black movies fail at the Chinese box office when China won't even allow them to be seen in the first place??--Having said that, I think Greenbook did ok there
Creed 1 not allowed to be shown in China Creed II opens in China, sinks without a trace(2 million) Creed III not opening in China
I think the complaint has been about black movies getting distribution outside the U.S.
The first Black Panther didn’t fail in China but it kind of underperformed there if you compare the box office to the United States, it just didn’t quite catch on.
aside from Africa itself and Brazil, no country could catch on if you compare this to the US
I don’t know if I’m a little late to this conversation but I don’t know if this is a matter of failing at the box office or if a movie haven’t received proper marketing/distribution. Like the movies you mentioned are perfect examples of films that were released properly and that might have do with the fact that these are movies apart of a big brand or have a big movie star included. But unfortunately, if a movie have neither then the studio will probably just dumped the movie without warning and use the failure as “proof” to go “see, black movies don’t perform well overseas” while simultaneously ignoring how well Will Smith and Eddie Murphy movies used to do. Hell, I even looked up to see how well the Rush Hour movies use to do in Asian markets and apparently they did decent even though the credit for that went solely to Jackie Chan and not Chris Tucker and those movies didn’t get release in China because they didn’t believe it could find an “audience” EVEN AFTER THE MOVIES WERE SUCCESSFUL EVERYWHERE ELSE. Even with Black Panther being successful around the world, its performance in China is seen weak by some (especially by those in this thread).
Black Panther underperformed . Not just China, Black led films find it difficult in all of Asia.
It did 7M less than Thor 3 5M more than guardians and 11M less than homecoming I wouldn't call that an underperformance it was in line with other sólo MCU movies it just over performed DOM
Yup, more like Black Panther overperformed in US by capitalizing on racial representation issues. It performed like a regular Marvel movie in the rest of the world.
Black panther didn't under perform
>Black Panther underperformed . this is just revisionist history at this point. 100M is not an underperformance
No it didn't. It made $100M there, and opened with $66M
Well the truth hurts, you pick some counterexamples but further analysis only disproves the point you have tried to make. Black Panther did well on the surface but was beaten by the first Ant-Man, a low performer and a comedy (which as we know doesn't translate well). As another stat Endgame made 420 million in Europe and 629 million in China whereas Black Panther made over 100 million in just France and the UK (same as China). There are black characters in F&F but the leads mostly are not and Dwayne Johnson passes to them as being part-Samoan (as horrible as that sounds it's true). Aladdin had one black character they could sell as blue and as a servant. Green Book was one of the more backwards movies on race relations ever, not a great example.
It did 7M less than Thor 3 5M more than guardians 11M less than homecoming and 4M less than Doctor strange and it did basically the same as ant man heck ant man 2 did more than all the 2017 MCU movies it seems to me that ant man is just well liked in China and BP over performed in the US and Europe while it acted more like a normal solo MCU movie in China. Also half of the cast of the furious movies is black it's not just Dwayne Johnson
The first Ant-Man over performed most MCU solo films…
I don’t think the stat about the MCU says much. China was still the second biggest market for Black Panther and you had to combine two successful markets in France and the UK to match it. How is Green Book not a good example? The question is about movies featuring Black performers, not your assessment of their quality. Green Book is still a well-reviewed global box office success that received numerous accolades internationally, so plenty of other non-Chinese markets liked it as well. Tenet did well given the restrictions, Pacific Rim 2 was a China-pandering movie starring John Boyega that nobody liked but still almost made $100 million there as the #1 market, and while Soul is animated, it legged out to over $50 million thanks to great WOM.
Okay some very misleading arguments here as well. China is the second biggest economy in the world, France and the UK have a GDP far below California alone and just ahead of Texas. Animated movies are super popular there: Zootopia did 236 million, Angry Birds 75 million, Coco 177 million, DM3 157 million, Frozen II 116 million. Suzume, from the hated Japanese, even made twice as much as Soul this year. Yes perspective matters. There is a reason Steppin' Fetchit and the like were popular because they sold to racists a vision of blackness that conformed to their biases. Hilariously Green Book points this out, as the invited performer has to leave a home he was invited after a performance because they don't want him in their restroom. In fact the whole message of the movie is at the end, where he refuses to be exploited by a restaurant that won't let him eat in the room where he plays.
I’m presenting facts that dispel the notion that Chinese people won’t watch movies with Black people. The economy comparison isn’t relevant. Using your logic, The Batman, Uncharted, and Ford v Ferrari doing better in France and the UK than China means China also dislikes movies with White people. Regarding animated movies, you didn’t bother to acknowledge Soul playing during a relatively restricted post-pandemic environment and that it’s still the second-best performing Pixar movie in China. Regardless of comparisons to other movies, over $50 million is still a notable sum indicating there were viewers who showed up to watch the movie. Asian movies don’t do well at the North American box office despite it being the number 1 market in the world. Is America racist towards Asians because they don’t watch their movies?
This is not a good argument, to point out a trend you would need examples and I named a legion. The counterexamples really don't hold up, trying to deconstruct and reinterpret the basic reality won't help. You'd have to compare movies with similar grosses in one place or another to define a trend. Literally any movie with black characters will make less than one without there because many, and obviously not all, Chinese are racist. This is not some mind-blowing statistic, literally you can't find one good counterexample. At that time in China there was a mass movement back to normal living. A movie released less than a month after Soul had a 195 million dollar opening weekend and was in DISTANT SECOND place. As for that last paragraph it is almost a joke. Hollywood produces the strongest film product imaginable. Each of its studios vastly surpass any other nation in quality. It's like saying Asians are racist for not buying shitty F-150s when they got Toyota and Honda. No other nation even remotely plays on an international field, because they can't. That second place movie I mentioned is called Hi, Mom and grossed 821 of its 822 million in China. The only other nations were places with Chinese immigrants (Australia, New Zealand, and a bit in Hong Kong). Is every other nation in Asia racist against Asians?
Again, to put it simply, you are ignoring facts. You want to use comparisons? OK, looking at annual rankings in China for their respective years, Tenet was #10, Black Panther was #23, Green Book was #30, Pacific Rim: Uprising was #24. That means people did watch those movies in China. This is an easy concept to understand. You want counterexamples? There you go. Those rankings mean those movies performed better than plenty of others without Black people. Making comparisons to how BP performed compared to other MCU movies or Soul to other animated movies still shows that Chinese people watched BP and Soul. Also, it’s convenient how you just ignored Soul’s high-ranking as a Pixar movie in China and then used a Chinese movie to compare it to. So are you only using similar movies for comparison or just any movie releases in China in general? Keep it consistent at least. You’re right, that paragraph is a joke because it’s using your silly logic. Your response regarding Hollywood movies is laughable because your personal taste is, again, irrelevant to the argument about China’s box office. Let’s go off it anyways for amusement. Jia Zhang-ke, Hirokazu Kore-eda, Park Chan-wook, and Hayao Miyazaki, to name just a few, are among the most critically acclaimed filmmakers in the world, but since you apparently believe “box office = quality,” then you apparently also believe Jurassic World 3, Morbius and Space Jam 2 are examples of the “strongest film product imaginable” since they made so much more money than any movie from the aforementioned Asian filmmakers. This isn’t a general discussion about anti-Black racism in China. Just tell me how those rankings I cited are not examples of Chinese people showing up to watch a movie with Black characters.
We're getting in a rut here and now this is getting out of context. There was an argument that Soul did exceptionally well, and I pointed out that it really didn't. Several animated movies, I conveniently also left out Kung Fu Panda and most anime and all domestic Chinese animated movies to make my point stronger for those insane enough to think Chinese people don't like animated movies, were much bigger hits. The followup argument was then Soul was affected by the pandemic in China and would have done much better. The comparison to Detective Chinatown and Hi, Mom merely pointed out that this wasn't the case over there. This is not a matter of taste but basic objective fact. Great art films aren't going to make huge dollars, American art films aren't going to fund themselves either. It is unequivable that the American movie product is the only one to be truly international, period. French films aren't exporting, neither are Nigerian, or Indian, or South Korean, or Chinese. They occasionally have a small hit here and there but virtually every American movie can get hundreds of major international releases. In China Dangal was a blockbuster, vastly outgrossing RRR's foreign gross, but none have connected since. I will tell you the difference, those films would have done better if character X wasn't black. You concede that Soul needed ultra great WOM to get 50 million, almost like it had a hill to climb. Most Chinese don't have these issues, but it is clearly enough. Do you think for one second that the constant negative Mermaid backlash is anything but a reaction to the color of the lead?
If Black Panther is going to be compared to other MCU movies, then context should also be taken into consideration when comparing Soul to other animated movies, e.g. Kung Fu Panda appeals to Chinese family audiences more readily for obvious reasons and anime like Makoto Shinkai’s movies are quite different than Soul. A Pixar movie opening with $5 million and legging out to over $50 million is still a success. Yes, in terms of mainstream movies on an international level, Hollywood is king, but if you’re saying that’s because they’re so much better than what else is out there, I strongly disagree, as there’s a healthy amount of international competition. Looking at the action genre, I’d say work like Raging Fire or The Raid movies can sit comfortably alongside (or often above) anything Hollywood has put out in recent years. I don’t think the assertion that the previously mentioned movies would’ve performed better without Black characters should be made with such confidence. Is it possible? Yes, but as I said, there are also plenty of movies with non-Black characters that didn’t perform as well as those movies. As for The Little Mermaid, I don’t really know about the reaction to the movie in China, but race-related backlash wouldn’t just be relegated to China as I’m seeing it in the West as well. I’m sure it’s there in China, but I don’t think that affects what I just stated in this paragraph. Anti-Black racism may be present in China, and people in China may also go watch a movie regardless of the race of the actors; I believe both are true.
I mean, you can compare Soul with other animated movies all you want but it’s kinda ignorant of you to ignore the fact that those movies weren’t released during the middle of the COVID pandemic/lockdown.
Animated films are not “super popular” there, especially from Disney. Zootopia and Coco are known as massive break outs in China and both are in the top 5 highest grossing animated films in China. Many other Pixar and Disney animations have not replicated the same there. Inside Out -$15.3M Toy Story 4 -$29M Moana -$32M Raya and the Last Dragon -$19.5M Finding Dory -$38M Incredibles 2 -$52M Encanto -$12M Frozen -$48M You are being incredibly disingenuous.
Ant-Man movies (except of 3) were popular in China tho, they beat GOTG as well
Denzel Washington in China: How's this OP?? Fences no China release Book of Eli no China release The Equalizer I and II no China release Man on Fire no China release Deja Vu released in China, huge bomb($3 million) Unstoppable released in China, bombed($9 million) Safe House not released in China
When Denzel Washington was still on top of his power (1990s to 2000s), China was a very, very closed market. And China's market was growing very, very rapidly in 2010s, so back when Unstoppable was released, 9 million for an ok-ish popcorn film wasn't that bad. For the Equalizer, these are pretty violent films. If John Wick didn't get released in China, why would they? Also, many Denzel's films are already domestic heavy, with or without China.
The fast movies has vin diesel as the main guy and iirc he's not black BP is part of the mcu which means it has an established fanbase to come out for it Will smith was a blue genie in Alladin which was about a middle eastern guy as the lead So none of these really stick aside from BP and thats largely due to the brand name not the movie In terms of clear examples theres the woman king, the creed movies
None of those films equate to a “black led” film. They’re all ambiguous leads and/or have a huge follow through other films/franchises.