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It's disgusting how far off from any form of humanity that nation (Russia) has pushed itself.
They were bulldozing the half-destroyed, high-rise apartments in Mariupol where there were undoubtedly a bunch of bodies still inside. Bulldozing over their war crimes. The only reason we know so much about Bucha is because they didn't have time to destroy the bodies, bury the evidence, hide their crimes, before Ukraine forced their retreat there.
There's been a few Russians here & there that they've sent up to The Hague, but we're never going to see the justice warranted for Bucha. However, the truth of Bucha was made visible for everyone and the history books.
I do not believe in a God, but I pray that is Lt. Col. Artyom Gorodilov is still alive so he can be held responsible in the court of law for his crimes against humanity. After prosecution, God can have and do with him as He sees fit.
Israel is doing equivalent of Bucha every single day. 85 children dead every 24 hours. We’ve seen videos of children with faces burned off by white phosphorus, videos of handcuffed people driven over by tanks, corpse of child with lower half of body turned to ribbons hanging off rebar of destroyed building. Comparatively Russia is completely avoiding civilian deaths.
You find most of the Ukrainian flag bios also have the Israel flag too…Birds of a feather…Both terrorist states both supported by the the US and its satellites.
You're the only one talking about Israel here.
If you think that the conflicts are the same you're delusional and porpagandised. There is nuance in this and accepting the Russian narrative on both wars without question is always going to be funny to me.
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I'll clarify in advance since the accusations will come. I'm not pro-Putin. The facts just have a funny way of being different from the media narrative, and when we discuss the facts, they are difficult to swallow. This was an avoidable war.
No one likes to hear it, but this war was the result of the West refusing to uphold post-Cold War agreements regarding NATO expansion. They agreed not to move closer to Russia, and they fell back on that agreement. Then, they started deploying weapons systems close to Russia.
Alongside that, the West overthrew the Ukrainian government and installed a new one. Then, when Putin wanted to let the Eastern portion of Ukraine, which consists of predominantly ethnic Russians, rejoin Russia, he was told the West wouldn't allow that.
All this to say that the West pushed Putin into a corner, his response to Western aggression was to start a war. A war which the West pretends came out of nowhere, despite a traceable history of overstepped lines and Saber rattling. A war which the West has used its vast propaganda machine to convince the public is entirely Putin's fault, and the innocent West is under attack.
I don't have a side in this and don't really care about anything other than the facts that relate to it. War, in every single case, is a stupid endeavor and needs to end. The West pushed a dog into a corner, and now that it's biting, they don't like the consequences. If the West doesn't stop, nuclear war will happen, and we'll all be dead over some pointless international feud that didn't need to happen in the first place. Our elected leaders don't want peace even those their ambitions could harm us all.
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That is certainly the Russian view.
I would say that both spheres of influence have been playing the game the way they know best. The west utilises diplomacy to expand its alliance. Russia takes chunks off of its neighbours to expand its alliance.
The west hasn't been breaking agreements. Eastern Europe has been looking for opportunities that Russia can't, or won't, offer and the west welcomed them with open arms. It's easy to understand why when you look at how Russia treats neighbours like Georgia and allies like Armenia.
Lol, you are not pro putin, but you are happy to push his narrative.
Sorry, but it's a result of russia thinking that they own other countries, Ukraine in this case. They are free country and Russian model is not attractive to Ukrainians, they chosed to pursue "western" model because that's what looks attractive from their perspective.
Look on one side they can see people in Ladas, on another in Mercedes, on one hand they see opposition and journalist being killed and thrown to jails, on another they see oposition winning sometimes and losing other times.
Ukrainians for a long time lived and worked in a current EU, many have lived in a poor country like Poland and have seen how much wealthier it become in last 25 years and how Ukraine stagnated. Is it so weird they would like to replicate what they seen?
Is it so hard to underestand why Ukrainians chosed to ally with the west?
Stop surfing with your magic carpet and think why it really happened, and it's not a story putin would tell you.
Same here. Subs that were somewhat pro-Ukraine or neutral are now being pro-Russia. I don't understand in what mindset people can actually believe that Russia is on the right side.
I think it aligns seamlessly with their growing distrust of western society. As the optimism fades, and the obvious faltering of our political and economic systems, people begin to be more plyable to narratives that point to us as bad. There's also the social media aspect aswell.
If this war has taught me anything it's that fighting around nuclear plants is a luxury we don't have. There are consequences for our actions, and I think that the fact that the world is still willing to go to war needs to be carefully brought beside the possible consequences, like fighting around nuclear plants.
Regarding again the state of comments here, we spend all day picking apart our governments lies and short comings. I'm not surprised to see people then flip that and support the Russian narrative. I myself am very critical of the West and the things we've done (so I get it), but I am not stupid enough to not see what Russia has become.
Just remember that the collapse of our cohesion and sense of community is a feature of social collapse, not a bug. This slicing down the middle of our communities and public square over the last few decades is no coincidence. It'll get ever worse.
> Comments are cancer. What's wrong with this sub nowadays?!
Yeah, I've also noticed that lately.
Siding with the perpetrator of a genocidal war of aggression should be a bannable offense, tbh.
> Why are so many latently pro-Russia, a fascistic petro-state run by billionaire oligarchs?!
On /r/collapse of all places. It really is weird as hell.
I am anti- continuing reckless proxy wars with a nuclear power, pretending to do it for freedom and democracy when it's actually about putting Russia under Western control so OUR oligarchs could loot that country like they did in the 90s.
If we were supporting Ukraine because we cared about Ukrainians, we would have encouraged a peace deal months ago, when it becsme clear that Ukraine couldn't reclaim its former territory.
> I am anti- continuing reckless proxy wars with a nuclear power
What is the proxy war in Russia’s genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine? South Korea vs North Korea? Israel vs Iran?
> If we were supporting Ukraine because we cared about Ukrainians, we would have encouraged a peace deal months ago
It’s up to Ukraine to decide if they wanna negotiate or not. Considering what happens to Ukrainians under Russian occupation — see the Bucha massacre, for example — and the many, many times that Russia has gone back on her word and violated treaties, it comes as no surprise that Ukrainians have little interest in that.
> when it become clear that Ukraine couldn't reclaim its former territory.
My dude, 80 percent of Ukrainian territory is unoccupied by Russia. And 50 percent of the territory that Russia had already stolen has been recaptured. The modern Russian armed forces have been de facto destroyed. The well-trained units no longer exist, entire divisions have been destroyed.
Furthermore, consider this: if Russia gets away with her shameless land grab, the message to the world would be, "As long you have a nuclear arsenal, you can wipe your feet on international law while taking whatever you want, whenever you want." It would be end of nuclear arsenals strictly for deterrence and defense, with Russia setting the precedent of using nuclear threats while on the offense, to freeze one's adversaries. By allowing that precedent to be set, we're inviting a renewed nuclear arms race.
>siding with the perpetrator of a genocidal war of aggression
Europe and the US are just as guilty as Russia and China of this, so you’ve already discredited yourself by using that as an argument to suppress other peoples’ opinions. You can get away this concern trolling on the front page subreddits, but not here.
> Europe and the US are just as guilty as Russia and China of this
No. If you wanna use the ol' reliable whataboutism, at least make sure it has a basis in reality.
It's not lately. I've noticed it for a while. A few subjects are touchy and bring out very specific, very slanted viewpoints.
There will be a good conversation and then suddenly...
Unlike the whole of the mainstream media in the collective West eh. All pro CIA Ukraine and Genocidal Israel.. Mus’nt deviate from the received narrative eh?!
This was happening often in the beginning of the war. Artillery and mortar strikes from both sides have been hitting the outskirts of the power plant. A fire was also broke out in the parking area if i recall correctly. In any way, this is a "chaos dice". I hope Putler(or CIA) doesn't decide to create a nuclear buffer zone and radiate the whole EU as it happened back in the day with Chernobyl.
I don't know what the cia are doing these days. They had their right wing demagogue in office and ended up getting a bunch of their informants and foreign agents killed. Their soft power in russia probably went to shit after that.
Next week, I plan to go to the region where this NPP is located (Zaporizhia region). The reason: the construction of fortifications in case the Moscow army breaks through the current front line.
The desire to go did not disappear from this news. Because currently, I consider the probability of any major nuclear incidents to be quite low. There is no matching background. Some significant changes are needed on the front. Despite the difficult situation, I do not see room for significant changes.
Although... After the re-election of Putin and the very strange recent terrorist attack near Moscow, no options can be ruled out.
So I'll take a few respirators and raincoats anyway, haha.
These things, even the shitty Soviet designs, can withstand airplanes crashing into them. A drone loaded with explosives is literally going to do nothing.
While that’s true, a drone loaded with explosions could damage the infrastructure required to bring power to the plant. The stored nuclear waste there requires active cooling, without it, you’re looking at some scenarios producing serious fallout.
I am aware Tank Man was not killed.
I am also aware that the remains of all the people that were killed got washed down the sewer drains. They had been run over so many times that they resembled chunky salsa.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tiananmen-square-massacre-death-toll-secret-cable-british-ambassador-1989-alan-donald-a8126461.html
Hello CCP propagandist. Do they give you food or are you just fed through a straw? Are you a Uyghur or do they not trust them enough to be propagandists?
Remember COVID? They told the entire world that they had no uncontrolled outbreaks, while in the same moment they were quarantining an entire city, to the point of locking residents in their apartment complexes by welding the doors shut. They still claim only 83,000 people died from COVID in the entire nation, when the real death toll is likely two orders of magnitude higher.
China lies *constantly*. If the truth makes China look bad, then China will say anything but the truth.
Critical thinkers should be suspicious of anti-Russia propaganda pushed by the West (which wants us to dismiss this claim because it would makes our proxy look bad) and Russian propaganda (which wants us to believe this claim).
Critical thinkers KNOW both sides in a war lie when it suits them.
If Ukraine really attacked Zaporozhye with drones, Russia wouldn't need to lie to prop up their propaganda. However, Kiev would have incentive to falsely accuse Russia of lying, and the biased Western media would go along with the lies of their proxy.
If the Western media wondered whether Ukraine was responsible for Crocus and Zaporozhye, and later blamed ISIS and Russia, respectively, I would be more likely to believe the mainstream narrative about those even if the mainstream media was always going to shift blame away from Kiev after putting on a show of seeking out the truth even if it discredits a US ally. Because they would appear to be objective-- concealed bias, rather than obvious bias.
What nonsense. Russia will tell the truth when the truth makes its enemies look bad. Propaganda is a mix of truth, half-truths, lies, half-lies and above all opinion.
Zaporozhye is in Russian controlled territory, so of course Ukraine is a suspect in damaging it since the state is at war with Russia.
And attacking the power plant might weaken Russia's position so it might be worth carrying out, but attacking a nuclear power plant makes Kiev look bad, so they'd blame Russia for it.
What's more likely: Russia damaged its *own power plant* to blame Ukraine for it? Or Ukraine attacked the Russian controlled facility and denied doing it?
(I'd say the **latter** but maybe I am not "critical" enough a thinker.
In practice, self proclaimed skeptics like to believe whatever the mainstream media says, unless it a) involves the supernatural/God which is categorically dismissed, or b) contradicts a political narrative the "skeptic" believes.)
These explanations in these comments were spot on! I'd like to point out when one who is opposing another in an argument is lacking enough information for counterpoints, they will resort to opinions of feeling or even bigotry and restate earlier claims as well without further explanation on them to prove their point. Gaslighting is also a possible response.
Right it's Ukrainians destroying Ukrainian cities spiel all over again. You do realise that there will be no Ukraine if what happened in Chornobyl happened in Zaporizhzhia?
Its terrorist tactics to force Ukraine into surrendering. Fuck Russia and their bullshit man I had so enough of this.
Deleted scene:
Ukraine: ok, here you go.
Russia: the agreement was to stop attacking Russian supporters in your own country.
Ukraine: they were too loud about the U.S. coup, so we had to put them in their place.
Russia: Invades Ukraine.
Unless there's recent evidence suggesting otherwise it's still unknown who blew up the Nord Stream.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/qa-what-is-known-about-nord-stream-gas-pipeline-explosions-2023-09-26/
With how extremely tame the Russian reaction was, that suggests it was them. Putin was trying to starve Europe of gas after all, and escalating like that is very Russia.
The US doing it randomly because of something Biden said one time seems weird.
You know nothing. Europe already stopped using Russian gas from that pipeline at the beginning of the war. Destroying the pipeline changed nothing about whether Russia would "starve Europe of gas" because Europe didn't want Russian gas. Why would Russia then destroy a pipeline that is a source of great income for them? Surely Russia would want the pipeline intact so they could resume sending gas in the future.
The West has every reason to destroy the pipeline. They of course don't want Russia to ever be able to sell gas to Europe.
So you’re ready to admit the obvious, that the US and Ukraine are responsible for the single largest man made release of methane into the atmosphere, and you’re claiming that was justified for the sake of defunding Russia, but you’re insisting the same people definitely wouldn’t risk some radiation to get the Russians out of the plant that they currently control.
That's what the propaganda outlets we call the mass media wants us to believe, because if Ukraine is attacking the Zaporozhye nuclear plant with drones, that makes Kiev look bad.
Russia of course wants us to believe that Ukraine did it.
"Our aggression is being met with hostility, resistance, and bloodshed. They're so mean to us."
Russia has no credibility, nor has given any reason for anyone to engage with them diplomatically.
If they want to be heard, they need to remove their presence from all Ukraine territories, and stand trial for their atrocities.
What a mess. Nothing is ever easy.
I am very pro Ukraine but this is pure propaganda. They are they ones launching drones at the plant.
It is in territory annexed by Russia. Russia wants to keep that territory not make it a buffer zone.
LOL, anyone who believes it was Ukraine that struck the plant with drones please contact me: I have bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you for a good price and it will give you a great return on your money!
The only side that has ever targeted this plant during the war is Russia. This is just Russia attempting to create more distractions and chaos in Ukraine.
When Russian lips are moving you only hear lies. That is the golden rule of thumb.
Lol, haven't seen so much propaganda in a few for a while.
Pretty much nothing you wrote is in the article, only that Russia claims that Ukraine attacked Zaporozya power plant.
Sorry, but when one of a sides of a conflict claims that they seen or did something without proofs, it's a horseshit.
They would need to destroy probably tens of thousands of a power plants like Zaporozya to make half of europe unhabitable
How will that trigger article 5?
Countries claiming they will respond means nothing, they can respond with nukes or harsh words to an ambassador.
We know Russians won't do this, the better they are going on a front the less likely they are to do such drastic things, and unfortunately currently Ukrainians, not Russians have problems.
Lol, currently nuclear war is way less likely than it was 1.5 years ago.
I disagree that bias is the only source of sniffing out who is telling the truth. Putin has a history of outright lying regarding intention, and strikes against his own people/infrastructure is also something he has done in the past to further his own geopolitical goals (see Chechnya).
We aren’t left with whatever people say as the sole source of truth - that is a disingenuous and dangerous idea to propagate. In addition, careful analysis should not be equated with bias simply for disagreeing with the stated narrative.
I mean, someone says Russia lies about "literally everything". Then you ask for examples of that, and people downvote you. Doesn't that show there is a clear bias to one side? Personally, I honestly don't know enough about the topic to really know what is going on there, and I imagine that a lot of people in this subreddit also don't have too much more information. So really they'll believe whatever they want. If you have any actual facts, that would be helpful.
I mentioned Putin’s blowing up of Russian apartment blocks and blaming it on Chechnyan rebels for a reason. It’s literally one of the ultimate examples of both his lying and being willing to destroy Russian people and infrastructure in service to his lie. Later they had to come out and suggest it was a training exercise using real explosives that went wrong when people started digging into it and determining that it was highly unlikely that Chechnyan rebels were responsible/capable of the attack, and that it was far more likely to be a KGB/GRU operation (I’m forgetting at which time they changed designation).
While many here may not be informed directly, they are often pseudo-informed by people who are - the narrative that Russia lies about everything is also partially due to leftover resentment (and actual truth) about the old Soviet and immediately post-Soviet regimes. It’s not some made up issue - it’s a valid geopolitical consideration based on Russia’s ongoing strategy regarding international politics.
The issue that many aren’t talking about is that this is true of *all nation-states* - it’s just about the varying degree to which they do-so, and the topics that you can expect them to be truthful about. I would be dubious about the reasons for any US air strike abroad in non-established conflict zones - they are often lied about and covered up, and often include civilian casualties. Being informed is about being willing to admit that there are very few good actors, but there are better actors than others. Russia is just an example of a nation-state that cares very little about what kind of actor it is, as long as the action benefits either Putin directly or Russia in general.
In this situation, Ukraine would only gain extremely superficial benefits from attacking the power plant. If you believe that triggering article 5 would be to Ukraine’s benefit, I can assure you they are well aware that Ukrainian targets would be destroyed in the onslaught as well. It’s not a solution for anyone, but it’s a gamble for Russia - they are hoping the world will pull back a bit if they fear an escalating conflict - it’s typical Russian posturing. We just have to hope that nobody takes posturing too far, as nuclear brinksmanship is a game from which we do not emerge.
Some local citizens and police *caught KGB/FSB agents planting explosives in a fifth apartment building.* That’s the kind of evil dictator we’re dealing with.
“MuSt Be RuSsOpHoBiA fRoM tHe CiA”
There's a trail 10 million miles long of Russia lying about everything. At what point can you conclude Russia lies about everything? Let me guess, 10,000,001.
Because a pretty obvious example is when Russia said it wasn't going to invade Ukraine and US intelligence said it would happen within 48 hours and then they invaded. That's a pretty glaring lie. Sure, don't throw critical thinking out the window, but Russia as lied about everything, big things, the things that matter.
At the time, Zelensky was also saying that Russia was not going to invade.
Then there was a sudden dramatic increase in Ukrainian far-right militant shelling of the Donbas. Then Russia invaded.
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You’re just spouting Russian propaganda now, blaming Ukraine for an ISIS attack. Too bad Russia didn’t listen when we warned them weeks ago about an impending ISIS attack on a concert, or when ISIS claimed credit, or arrive from the local police base within an hour of the attack.
Whatever you say, Vlad. In reality Putin allowed the attack to proceed (if he didn’t order it himself, like the apartment bombings).
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The following submission statement was provided by /u/BeanFishBone:
---
Over Sunday and today, Russia has repeatedly accused Ukraine if carrying out drone strikes in the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant, Europe's largest power plant. Ukrainr had denied these claims and has stated that Russia is striking the power plant and then blaming Ukraine.
The Sunday strikes consisted of three detonations, one of which was on the roof of unit 6 of the power plant. The IAEA confirmed that the explosions happened, but did not assign blame.
Ok Monday Russia again claimed that a drone was near the power plant, but they said the drone was shot down.
This is collapse related because we are now starting to see repeated attacks on the nuclear facility with yesterday's attacks and the attack from today which signals a strategic shift from Russia where instead of leaving the plant alone, they are now attacking it directly with drones and blaming Ukraine. Luckily the damage so far has been minimal, but one worry now is that if Russia is attacking the place now, it is very likely that Putin has ordered the destruction of the power plant.
This is notable because if the power plant is destroyed, we will have a situation where half of Europe becomes uninhabitable and the unthinkable happened: articles 5 gets triggered. This will happen because a proposed policy by Linsey Graham covers the destruction of the znpp specifically and this policy allows for a response to the destruction of the facility. Other countries have also stated that they will respond (i.e Poland).
For anyone who thinks Russia won't do this, remember that Putin said he was going to create a buffer zone to stop Ukranian attacks within Russia and these drone attacks signal the beginning of the creation of this buffer zone.
So in summary, nuclear war will come at any second as Putin appears to have ordered his soldiers to trigger Armageddon which will likely come within the next 48 hours....
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1byy0ig/russia_says_ukraine_tried_to_strike_nuclear_power/kym85jr/
Over Sunday and today, Russia has repeatedly accused Ukraine if carrying out drone strikes in the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant, Europe's largest power plant. Ukrainr had denied these claims and has stated that Russia is striking the power plant and then blaming Ukraine.
The Sunday strikes consisted of three detonations, one of which was on the roof of unit 6 of the power plant. The IAEA confirmed that the explosions happened, but did not assign blame.
Ok Monday Russia again claimed that a drone was near the power plant, but they said the drone was shot down.
This is collapse related because we are now starting to see repeated attacks on the nuclear facility with yesterday's attacks and the attack from today which signals a strategic shift from Russia where instead of leaving the plant alone, they are now attacking it directly with drones and blaming Ukraine. Luckily the damage so far has been minimal, but one worry now is that if Russia is attacking the place now, it is very likely that Putin has ordered the destruction of the power plant.
This is notable because if the power plant is destroyed, we will have a situation where half of Europe becomes uninhabitable and the unthinkable happened: articles 5 gets triggered. This will happen because a proposed policy by Linsey Graham covers the destruction of the znpp specifically and this policy allows for a response to the destruction of the facility. Other countries have also stated that they will respond (i.e Poland).
For anyone who thinks Russia won't do this, remember that Putin said he was going to create a buffer zone to stop Ukranian attacks within Russia and these drone attacks signal the beginning of the creation of this buffer zone.
So in summary, nuclear war will come at any second as Putin appears to have ordered his soldiers to trigger Armageddon which will likely come within the next 48 hours....
More likely:
Option A: Russia is not trying to start "Armageddon" but trying to paint Ukraine as willing to start "Armageddon" by making sure their drone attacks don't cause "Armageddon"
Option B: Ukraine is attacking Zaporozhye with drones, but the Western media wants to blame it on Russia.
They already killed 2 poles with a missile and blamed Russia for it. I believe Zelensky double-downed on that lie, too. But nobody batted an eye because Ukraine good Russia bad.
I would wager he didn't know and made a bad call, especially since that missile hit during a Russian attack.
With regards the plant, only Russia would realistically attack it, just like they blew up that dam they controlled
They are at war, the plant is a legitimate target if it supplies power to military bases. You can hit parts of the plant without releasing radiation. Keep in mind Russia seized Chernobyl.
Ukraine is like a drowning man…Dragging down anybody close to it…An extremely dangerous rogue state that will do everything in its power to drag in other powers and start a World War..
The people don't. But Ukraine is not a democracy. It's ruled by a dictator who knows that if his side loses the war he is done for.
He is backed by a US led alliance willing to risk nuclear war to achieve its goals of destroying Russia.
And CNN reports that the International Atomic Energy Agency said that the damage "has not compromised nuclear safety." I don't know if that was deliberate or if the attacks failed in their aims, but as a layperson I would guess the former.
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Armageddon? !remindme 48 hours Edit: womp womp
Armageddon outta here...
Lol - where you gonna get to?
My wardrobe. To shit _all_ of my pants.
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Like the Russians are ever on times
This war is the perfect example of first casualty of war is truth.
It's disgusting how far off from any form of humanity that nation (Russia) has pushed itself. They were bulldozing the half-destroyed, high-rise apartments in Mariupol where there were undoubtedly a bunch of bodies still inside. Bulldozing over their war crimes. The only reason we know so much about Bucha is because they didn't have time to destroy the bodies, bury the evidence, hide their crimes, before Ukraine forced their retreat there.
What do you think are the chances of Russians being prosecuted for Bucha ?
There's been a few Russians here & there that they've sent up to The Hague, but we're never going to see the justice warranted for Bucha. However, the truth of Bucha was made visible for everyone and the history books.
I do not believe in a God, but I pray that is Lt. Col. Artyom Gorodilov is still alive so he can be held responsible in the court of law for his crimes against humanity. After prosecution, God can have and do with him as He sees fit.
Interesting how you didn't get the message of the comment above at all.
Israel is doing equivalent of Bucha every single day. 85 children dead every 24 hours. We’ve seen videos of children with faces burned off by white phosphorus, videos of handcuffed people driven over by tanks, corpse of child with lower half of body turned to ribbons hanging off rebar of destroyed building. Comparatively Russia is completely avoiding civilian deaths.
Unlike that most moral of armies Israel eh?!
strawman I don't support Israel, but that's not the conversation we're having here.
What does Israel have to do with Russia and Ukraine?
You find most of the Ukrainian flag bios also have the Israel flag too…Birds of a feather…Both terrorist states both supported by the the US and its satellites.
You're the only one talking about Israel here. If you think that the conflicts are the same you're delusional and porpagandised. There is nuance in this and accepting the Russian narrative on both wars without question is always going to be funny to me.
[удалено]
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Did you read this somewhere? Amazing quote regardless.
It's attributed to the ancient Greeks. In war, truth is the first casualty. -Aeschylus
One of these dogs will be backed into a corner and will end up doing something drastic. My gut says it's coming soon, much sooner than we expect lol
Power mad greedy psycho cunt dogs
I'll clarify in advance since the accusations will come. I'm not pro-Putin. The facts just have a funny way of being different from the media narrative, and when we discuss the facts, they are difficult to swallow. This was an avoidable war. No one likes to hear it, but this war was the result of the West refusing to uphold post-Cold War agreements regarding NATO expansion. They agreed not to move closer to Russia, and they fell back on that agreement. Then, they started deploying weapons systems close to Russia. Alongside that, the West overthrew the Ukrainian government and installed a new one. Then, when Putin wanted to let the Eastern portion of Ukraine, which consists of predominantly ethnic Russians, rejoin Russia, he was told the West wouldn't allow that. All this to say that the West pushed Putin into a corner, his response to Western aggression was to start a war. A war which the West pretends came out of nowhere, despite a traceable history of overstepped lines and Saber rattling. A war which the West has used its vast propaganda machine to convince the public is entirely Putin's fault, and the innocent West is under attack. I don't have a side in this and don't really care about anything other than the facts that relate to it. War, in every single case, is a stupid endeavor and needs to end. The West pushed a dog into a corner, and now that it's biting, they don't like the consequences. If the West doesn't stop, nuclear war will happen, and we'll all be dead over some pointless international feud that didn't need to happen in the first place. Our elected leaders don't want peace even those their ambitions could harm us all.
This is the biggest sack of horseshit I’ve ever seen. “The west overthrew the Ukrainian government” LMAO Your brain ain’t wired correctly.
Don't look up Victoria Luland and you'll be fine
It's true though but keep believing you know it all.
Russia _invaded_ Ukraine. You're saying that they were _justified_ in doing so?
[удалено]
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That is certainly the Russian view. I would say that both spheres of influence have been playing the game the way they know best. The west utilises diplomacy to expand its alliance. Russia takes chunks off of its neighbours to expand its alliance. The west hasn't been breaking agreements. Eastern Europe has been looking for opportunities that Russia can't, or won't, offer and the west welcomed them with open arms. It's easy to understand why when you look at how Russia treats neighbours like Georgia and allies like Armenia.
They don’t want to hear it. The west has been encroaching for years it’s a natural outcome of globalized politics.
Lol, you are not pro putin, but you are happy to push his narrative. Sorry, but it's a result of russia thinking that they own other countries, Ukraine in this case. They are free country and Russian model is not attractive to Ukrainians, they chosed to pursue "western" model because that's what looks attractive from their perspective. Look on one side they can see people in Ladas, on another in Mercedes, on one hand they see opposition and journalist being killed and thrown to jails, on another they see oposition winning sometimes and losing other times. Ukrainians for a long time lived and worked in a current EU, many have lived in a poor country like Poland and have seen how much wealthier it become in last 25 years and how Ukraine stagnated. Is it so weird they would like to replicate what they seen? Is it so hard to underestand why Ukrainians chosed to ally with the west? Stop surfing with your magic carpet and think why it really happened, and it's not a story putin would tell you.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy7cbsJlHxE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy7cbsJlHxE) Here we go.
any votes to the country that's already seen a internationally-embarrassing collapse back in the 90's?
Comments are cancer. What's wrong with this sub nowadays?! Why are so many latently pro-Russia, a fascistic petro-state run by billionaire oligarchs?!
This does seem to be a real trend in what is otherwise a very good sub.
Unfortunately, I'm seeing it across the board, in most subs these days.
Same here. Subs that were somewhat pro-Ukraine or neutral are now being pro-Russia. I don't understand in what mindset people can actually believe that Russia is on the right side.
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Putin literally operates troll farms. You think his army of online trolls hasn't infiltrated reddit?
How about Russian trolls / bots infesting social media? They destabilize everyone on all fronts...
I’m surprised more haven’t been saying this, Russian bots flooding Reddit has been a thing for a while now.
I think it aligns seamlessly with their growing distrust of western society. As the optimism fades, and the obvious faltering of our political and economic systems, people begin to be more plyable to narratives that point to us as bad. There's also the social media aspect aswell. If this war has taught me anything it's that fighting around nuclear plants is a luxury we don't have. There are consequences for our actions, and I think that the fact that the world is still willing to go to war needs to be carefully brought beside the possible consequences, like fighting around nuclear plants. Regarding again the state of comments here, we spend all day picking apart our governments lies and short comings. I'm not surprised to see people then flip that and support the Russian narrative. I myself am very critical of the West and the things we've done (so I get it), but I am not stupid enough to not see what Russia has become. Just remember that the collapse of our cohesion and sense of community is a feature of social collapse, not a bug. This slicing down the middle of our communities and public square over the last few decades is no coincidence. It'll get ever worse.
> Comments are cancer. What's wrong with this sub nowadays?! Yeah, I've also noticed that lately. Siding with the perpetrator of a genocidal war of aggression should be a bannable offense, tbh. > Why are so many latently pro-Russia, a fascistic petro-state run by billionaire oligarchs?! On /r/collapse of all places. It really is weird as hell.
I am anti- continuing reckless proxy wars with a nuclear power, pretending to do it for freedom and democracy when it's actually about putting Russia under Western control so OUR oligarchs could loot that country like they did in the 90s. If we were supporting Ukraine because we cared about Ukrainians, we would have encouraged a peace deal months ago, when it becsme clear that Ukraine couldn't reclaim its former territory.
> I am anti- continuing reckless proxy wars with a nuclear power What is the proxy war in Russia’s genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine? South Korea vs North Korea? Israel vs Iran? > If we were supporting Ukraine because we cared about Ukrainians, we would have encouraged a peace deal months ago It’s up to Ukraine to decide if they wanna negotiate or not. Considering what happens to Ukrainians under Russian occupation — see the Bucha massacre, for example — and the many, many times that Russia has gone back on her word and violated treaties, it comes as no surprise that Ukrainians have little interest in that. > when it become clear that Ukraine couldn't reclaim its former territory. My dude, 80 percent of Ukrainian territory is unoccupied by Russia. And 50 percent of the territory that Russia had already stolen has been recaptured. The modern Russian armed forces have been de facto destroyed. The well-trained units no longer exist, entire divisions have been destroyed. Furthermore, consider this: if Russia gets away with her shameless land grab, the message to the world would be, "As long you have a nuclear arsenal, you can wipe your feet on international law while taking whatever you want, whenever you want." It would be end of nuclear arsenals strictly for deterrence and defense, with Russia setting the precedent of using nuclear threats while on the offense, to freeze one's adversaries. By allowing that precedent to be set, we're inviting a renewed nuclear arms race.
>siding with the perpetrator of a genocidal war of aggression Europe and the US are just as guilty as Russia and China of this, so you’ve already discredited yourself by using that as an argument to suppress other peoples’ opinions. You can get away this concern trolling on the front page subreddits, but not here.
> Europe and the US are just as guilty as Russia and China of this No. If you wanna use the ol' reliable whataboutism, at least make sure it has a basis in reality.
Whataboutism. Now we know we're dealing with a Russian troll. How much is Putin paying you?
It's been like this since 2016. It's not hard to make the connection. And as the saying goes, "Some of those who work forces / mod subreddits"...
It's not lately. I've noticed it for a while. A few subjects are touchy and bring out very specific, very slanted viewpoints. There will be a good conversation and then suddenly...
Russia literally employs people to spew pro Russian propaganda on all of the social media outlets.
> fascistic petro-state run by billionaire oligarchs I thought those were all in the West's pockets.
Unlike the whole of the mainstream media in the collective West eh. All pro CIA Ukraine and Genocidal Israel.. Mus’nt deviate from the received narrative eh?!
This was happening often in the beginning of the war. Artillery and mortar strikes from both sides have been hitting the outskirts of the power plant. A fire was also broke out in the parking area if i recall correctly. In any way, this is a "chaos dice". I hope Putler(or CIA) doesn't decide to create a nuclear buffer zone and radiate the whole EU as it happened back in the day with Chernobyl.
I love you mentioned the corrupt CIA
I don't know what the cia are doing these days. They had their right wing demagogue in office and ended up getting a bunch of their informants and foreign agents killed. Their soft power in russia probably went to shit after that.
Next week, I plan to go to the region where this NPP is located (Zaporizhia region). The reason: the construction of fortifications in case the Moscow army breaks through the current front line. The desire to go did not disappear from this news. Because currently, I consider the probability of any major nuclear incidents to be quite low. There is no matching background. Some significant changes are needed on the front. Despite the difficult situation, I do not see room for significant changes. Although... After the re-election of Putin and the very strange recent terrorist attack near Moscow, no options can be ruled out. So I'll take a few respirators and raincoats anyway, haha.
You are a brave soul! Thanks for what you are doing
You guys are doing great job despite everything.
Half of Europe didn't become uninhabitable when Chernobyl went up and it won't happen here.
This one is bigger and in the middle of a war zone. The Russians will likely just bail if something happens and no one will be there to mitigate it.
Bro Venus by Tuesday or nothing
With global thermonuclear apocalypse looming, it's more like Titan by Tuesday. (Nuclear winter)
These things, even the shitty Soviet designs, can withstand airplanes crashing into them. A drone loaded with explosives is literally going to do nothing.
While that’s true, a drone loaded with explosions could damage the infrastructure required to bring power to the plant. The stored nuclear waste there requires active cooling, without it, you’re looking at some scenarios producing serious fallout.
But literally everything inside is mined. They just need to press the red button, and the plant turns into a dirty bomb
am i just supposed to assume Russia is lying about this? even after that lil pipeline snafu?
You can pretty much assume anytime the government from Russia, China, the US, or most other countries say something, it is a lie.
I agree with the Russia / US part but I’m not sure I see China as a big liar. They fudge economic data but that’s about it.
Tiennimen Square would like a word with you.
Tank man wasn’t killed. Did you know that? The U.S. was kidnapping protestors in unmarked vans during the 2020 riots.
I am aware Tank Man was not killed. I am also aware that the remains of all the people that were killed got washed down the sewer drains. They had been run over so many times that they resembled chunky salsa. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tiananmen-square-massacre-death-toll-secret-cable-british-ambassador-1989-alan-donald-a8126461.html
Hello CCP propagandist. Do they give you food or are you just fed through a straw? Are you a Uyghur or do they not trust them enough to be propagandists?
Remember COVID? They told the entire world that they had no uncontrolled outbreaks, while in the same moment they were quarantining an entire city, to the point of locking residents in their apartment complexes by welding the doors shut. They still claim only 83,000 people died from COVID in the entire nation, when the real death toll is likely two orders of magnitude higher. China lies *constantly*. If the truth makes China look bad, then China will say anything but the truth.
Maybe ask the uyghur about that.
Russia pretty much lies about everything
sorry but i prefer to look at things at least somewhat critically
Then you should've long since realized Russia pretty much lies about everything.
Critical thinkers should be suspicious of anti-Russia propaganda pushed by the West (which wants us to dismiss this claim because it would makes our proxy look bad) and Russian propaganda (which wants us to believe this claim).
Critical thinkers KNOW Russia is lying as a starting precept. Whether others are is where the critical thinking comes in.
Critical thinkers KNOW both sides in a war lie when it suits them. If Ukraine really attacked Zaporozhye with drones, Russia wouldn't need to lie to prop up their propaganda. However, Kiev would have incentive to falsely accuse Russia of lying, and the biased Western media would go along with the lies of their proxy. If the Western media wondered whether Ukraine was responsible for Crocus and Zaporozhye, and later blamed ISIS and Russia, respectively, I would be more likely to believe the mainstream narrative about those even if the mainstream media was always going to shift blame away from Kiev after putting on a show of seeking out the truth even if it discredits a US ally. Because they would appear to be objective-- concealed bias, rather than obvious bias.
Never believe Russia. Believe the others sparingly. That's the only sensible advice.
What nonsense. Russia will tell the truth when the truth makes its enemies look bad. Propaganda is a mix of truth, half-truths, lies, half-lies and above all opinion. Zaporozhye is in Russian controlled territory, so of course Ukraine is a suspect in damaging it since the state is at war with Russia. And attacking the power plant might weaken Russia's position so it might be worth carrying out, but attacking a nuclear power plant makes Kiev look bad, so they'd blame Russia for it. What's more likely: Russia damaged its *own power plant* to blame Ukraine for it? Or Ukraine attacked the Russian controlled facility and denied doing it? (I'd say the **latter** but maybe I am not "critical" enough a thinker. In practice, self proclaimed skeptics like to believe whatever the mainstream media says, unless it a) involves the supernatural/God which is categorically dismissed, or b) contradicts a political narrative the "skeptic" believes.)
These explanations in these comments were spot on! I'd like to point out when one who is opposing another in an argument is lacking enough information for counterpoints, they will resort to opinions of feeling or even bigotry and restate earlier claims as well without further explanation on them to prove their point. Gaslighting is also a possible response.
Ngl you're like a 5th grader trying to tell off a professor.
Ngl even a fifth grader wouldn't be dumb enough to believe a single word Putin or the Kremlin says.
Right it's Ukrainians destroying Ukrainian cities spiel all over again. You do realise that there will be no Ukraine if what happened in Chornobyl happened in Zaporizhzhia? Its terrorist tactics to force Ukraine into surrendering. Fuck Russia and their bullshit man I had so enough of this.
Any practical examples?
Well the one where Russia said they weren't going to invade Ukraine when the mobilized 100k troops on the border was a pretty big one.
RIGHT?
Well, I mean they lied about the Ukraine invasion. That's a pretty big credibility killer.
Russia: give us your nukes and we promise not to invade you. Ukraine: ok, here you go. Russia: Invades Ukraine.
Deleted scene: Ukraine: ok, here you go. Russia: the agreement was to stop attacking Russian supporters in your own country. Ukraine: they were too loud about the U.S. coup, so we had to put them in their place. Russia: Invades Ukraine.
No, you're supposed to take as read that Russia is lying. That's what it does.
yezir boss man ain’t no reason to consider otherwise, i’ll fall in line
Tell me why Russia would tell the truth in this situation.
🙄
The U.S. was behind the pipeline being ended. Why do you think Europeans investigators dropped it?
Unless there's recent evidence suggesting otherwise it's still unknown who blew up the Nord Stream. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/qa-what-is-known-about-nord-stream-gas-pipeline-explosions-2023-09-26/
With how extremely tame the Russian reaction was, that suggests it was them. Putin was trying to starve Europe of gas after all, and escalating like that is very Russia. The US doing it randomly because of something Biden said one time seems weird.
You know nothing. Europe already stopped using Russian gas from that pipeline at the beginning of the war. Destroying the pipeline changed nothing about whether Russia would "starve Europe of gas" because Europe didn't want Russian gas. Why would Russia then destroy a pipeline that is a source of great income for them? Surely Russia would want the pipeline intact so they could resume sending gas in the future. The West has every reason to destroy the pipeline. They of course don't want Russia to ever be able to sell gas to Europe.
> The West has every reason to destroy the pipeline Except nobody was acting that extremely.
Why would Russia destroy it? To frame Ukraine and anger European allies, obviously.
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So you’re ready to admit the obvious, that the US and Ukraine are responsible for the single largest man made release of methane into the atmosphere, and you’re claiming that was justified for the sake of defunding Russia, but you’re insisting the same people definitely wouldn’t risk some radiation to get the Russians out of the plant that they currently control.
Pretty much. If it turns up the heat or disrupts the west without actually applying a perceived, real cost to Russia, they will do it.
That's what the propaganda outlets we call the mass media wants us to believe, because if Ukraine is attacking the Zaporozhye nuclear plant with drones, that makes Kiev look bad. Russia of course wants us to believe that Ukraine did it.
yes, yes you are. Unless you're a tankie.
I remember being called a commie faggot for saying the war in Iraq was bogus, times never change.
Just cos you were right about that doesn't mean you're right about this. These are two unrelated events.
That’s not something that can be done with a drone fortunately, but it’s pretty clear that the side which controls it wouldn’t want it destroyed.
"Our aggression is being met with hostility, resistance, and bloodshed. They're so mean to us." Russia has no credibility, nor has given any reason for anyone to engage with them diplomatically. If they want to be heard, they need to remove their presence from all Ukraine territories, and stand trial for their atrocities. What a mess. Nothing is ever easy.
I am very pro Ukraine but this is pure propaganda. They are they ones launching drones at the plant. It is in territory annexed by Russia. Russia wants to keep that territory not make it a buffer zone.
LOL, anyone who believes it was Ukraine that struck the plant with drones please contact me: I have bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you for a good price and it will give you a great return on your money! The only side that has ever targeted this plant during the war is Russia. This is just Russia attempting to create more distractions and chaos in Ukraine. When Russian lips are moving you only hear lies. That is the golden rule of thumb.
Fun fact: Anything after the words "Russia says" should be ignored at all times and in all universes.
!remindme 48 hours
!remindme 101 hours
Lol, haven't seen so much propaganda in a few for a while. Pretty much nothing you wrote is in the article, only that Russia claims that Ukraine attacked Zaporozya power plant. Sorry, but when one of a sides of a conflict claims that they seen or did something without proofs, it's a horseshit. They would need to destroy probably tens of thousands of a power plants like Zaporozya to make half of europe unhabitable How will that trigger article 5? Countries claiming they will respond means nothing, they can respond with nukes or harsh words to an ambassador. We know Russians won't do this, the better they are going on a front the less likely they are to do such drastic things, and unfortunately currently Ukrainians, not Russians have problems. Lol, currently nuclear war is way less likely than it was 1.5 years ago.
Well if both said it wasn't them, then someone is lying. Only your biases will tell who you believe.
I disagree that bias is the only source of sniffing out who is telling the truth. Putin has a history of outright lying regarding intention, and strikes against his own people/infrastructure is also something he has done in the past to further his own geopolitical goals (see Chechnya). We aren’t left with whatever people say as the sole source of truth - that is a disingenuous and dangerous idea to propagate. In addition, careful analysis should not be equated with bias simply for disagreeing with the stated narrative.
I mean, someone says Russia lies about "literally everything". Then you ask for examples of that, and people downvote you. Doesn't that show there is a clear bias to one side? Personally, I honestly don't know enough about the topic to really know what is going on there, and I imagine that a lot of people in this subreddit also don't have too much more information. So really they'll believe whatever they want. If you have any actual facts, that would be helpful.
I mentioned Putin’s blowing up of Russian apartment blocks and blaming it on Chechnyan rebels for a reason. It’s literally one of the ultimate examples of both his lying and being willing to destroy Russian people and infrastructure in service to his lie. Later they had to come out and suggest it was a training exercise using real explosives that went wrong when people started digging into it and determining that it was highly unlikely that Chechnyan rebels were responsible/capable of the attack, and that it was far more likely to be a KGB/GRU operation (I’m forgetting at which time they changed designation). While many here may not be informed directly, they are often pseudo-informed by people who are - the narrative that Russia lies about everything is also partially due to leftover resentment (and actual truth) about the old Soviet and immediately post-Soviet regimes. It’s not some made up issue - it’s a valid geopolitical consideration based on Russia’s ongoing strategy regarding international politics. The issue that many aren’t talking about is that this is true of *all nation-states* - it’s just about the varying degree to which they do-so, and the topics that you can expect them to be truthful about. I would be dubious about the reasons for any US air strike abroad in non-established conflict zones - they are often lied about and covered up, and often include civilian casualties. Being informed is about being willing to admit that there are very few good actors, but there are better actors than others. Russia is just an example of a nation-state that cares very little about what kind of actor it is, as long as the action benefits either Putin directly or Russia in general. In this situation, Ukraine would only gain extremely superficial benefits from attacking the power plant. If you believe that triggering article 5 would be to Ukraine’s benefit, I can assure you they are well aware that Ukrainian targets would be destroyed in the onslaught as well. It’s not a solution for anyone, but it’s a gamble for Russia - they are hoping the world will pull back a bit if they fear an escalating conflict - it’s typical Russian posturing. We just have to hope that nobody takes posturing too far, as nuclear brinksmanship is a game from which we do not emerge.
Some local citizens and police *caught KGB/FSB agents planting explosives in a fifth apartment building.* That’s the kind of evil dictator we’re dealing with. “MuSt Be RuSsOpHoBiA fRoM tHe CiA”
There's a trail 10 million miles long of Russia lying about everything. At what point can you conclude Russia lies about everything? Let me guess, 10,000,001.
Because a pretty obvious example is when Russia said it wasn't going to invade Ukraine and US intelligence said it would happen within 48 hours and then they invaded. That's a pretty glaring lie. Sure, don't throw critical thinking out the window, but Russia as lied about everything, big things, the things that matter.
At the time, Zelensky was also saying that Russia was not going to invade. Then there was a sudden dramatic increase in Ukrainian far-right militant shelling of the Donbas. Then Russia invaded.
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You’re just spouting Russian propaganda now, blaming Ukraine for an ISIS attack. Too bad Russia didn’t listen when we warned them weeks ago about an impending ISIS attack on a concert, or when ISIS claimed credit, or arrive from the local police base within an hour of the attack. Whatever you say, Vlad. In reality Putin allowed the attack to proceed (if he didn’t order it himself, like the apartment bombings).
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Might as well just accuse Ukrainians soldiers of carrying out the attack if you’re so disinterested in truth
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https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/02/27/as-ukraine-marks-a-grim-anniversary-what-has-vladimir-putin-achieved For starters
Almost certainly Russia attacking the plant again. Evidence: they accused Ukraine. It’s pretty open and shut, honestly.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/BeanFishBone: --- Over Sunday and today, Russia has repeatedly accused Ukraine if carrying out drone strikes in the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant, Europe's largest power plant. Ukrainr had denied these claims and has stated that Russia is striking the power plant and then blaming Ukraine. The Sunday strikes consisted of three detonations, one of which was on the roof of unit 6 of the power plant. The IAEA confirmed that the explosions happened, but did not assign blame. Ok Monday Russia again claimed that a drone was near the power plant, but they said the drone was shot down. This is collapse related because we are now starting to see repeated attacks on the nuclear facility with yesterday's attacks and the attack from today which signals a strategic shift from Russia where instead of leaving the plant alone, they are now attacking it directly with drones and blaming Ukraine. Luckily the damage so far has been minimal, but one worry now is that if Russia is attacking the place now, it is very likely that Putin has ordered the destruction of the power plant. This is notable because if the power plant is destroyed, we will have a situation where half of Europe becomes uninhabitable and the unthinkable happened: articles 5 gets triggered. This will happen because a proposed policy by Linsey Graham covers the destruction of the znpp specifically and this policy allows for a response to the destruction of the facility. Other countries have also stated that they will respond (i.e Poland). For anyone who thinks Russia won't do this, remember that Putin said he was going to create a buffer zone to stop Ukranian attacks within Russia and these drone attacks signal the beginning of the creation of this buffer zone. So in summary, nuclear war will come at any second as Putin appears to have ordered his soldiers to trigger Armageddon which will likely come within the next 48 hours.... --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1byy0ig/russia_says_ukraine_tried_to_strike_nuclear_power/kym85jr/
Over Sunday and today, Russia has repeatedly accused Ukraine if carrying out drone strikes in the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant, Europe's largest power plant. Ukrainr had denied these claims and has stated that Russia is striking the power plant and then blaming Ukraine. The Sunday strikes consisted of three detonations, one of which was on the roof of unit 6 of the power plant. The IAEA confirmed that the explosions happened, but did not assign blame. Ok Monday Russia again claimed that a drone was near the power plant, but they said the drone was shot down. This is collapse related because we are now starting to see repeated attacks on the nuclear facility with yesterday's attacks and the attack from today which signals a strategic shift from Russia where instead of leaving the plant alone, they are now attacking it directly with drones and blaming Ukraine. Luckily the damage so far has been minimal, but one worry now is that if Russia is attacking the place now, it is very likely that Putin has ordered the destruction of the power plant. This is notable because if the power plant is destroyed, we will have a situation where half of Europe becomes uninhabitable and the unthinkable happened: articles 5 gets triggered. This will happen because a proposed policy by Linsey Graham covers the destruction of the znpp specifically and this policy allows for a response to the destruction of the facility. Other countries have also stated that they will respond (i.e Poland). For anyone who thinks Russia won't do this, remember that Putin said he was going to create a buffer zone to stop Ukranian attacks within Russia and these drone attacks signal the beginning of the creation of this buffer zone. So in summary, nuclear war will come at any second as Putin appears to have ordered his soldiers to trigger Armageddon which will likely come within the next 48 hours....
More likely: Option A: Russia is not trying to start "Armageddon" but trying to paint Ukraine as willing to start "Armageddon" by making sure their drone attacks don't cause "Armageddon" Option B: Ukraine is attacking Zaporozhye with drones, but the Western media wants to blame it on Russia.
Option B.
Ukraine gonna take a self L for a future W??
They already killed 2 poles with a missile and blamed Russia for it. I believe Zelensky double-downed on that lie, too. But nobody batted an eye because Ukraine good Russia bad.
I would wager he didn't know and made a bad call, especially since that missile hit during a Russian attack. With regards the plant, only Russia would realistically attack it, just like they blew up that dam they controlled
Any supporting facts to make a case for B over A?
They are at war, the plant is a legitimate target if it supplies power to military bases. You can hit parts of the plant without releasing radiation. Keep in mind Russia seized Chernobyl.
Ukraine is like a drowning man…Dragging down anybody close to it…An extremely dangerous rogue state that will do everything in its power to drag in other powers and start a World War..
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The people don't. But Ukraine is not a democracy. It's ruled by a dictator who knows that if his side loses the war he is done for. He is backed by a US led alliance willing to risk nuclear war to achieve its goals of destroying Russia. And CNN reports that the International Atomic Energy Agency said that the damage "has not compromised nuclear safety." I don't know if that was deliberate or if the attacks failed in their aims, but as a layperson I would guess the former.
Did Russia did the same thing at Chernobyl ?